Huge Franchises contra OC's
3 years ago
General
Fuzzy topic, please don't take any of what I will say as an attack, I barely even know how to begin or how to nail the point... In fact, I am not entirely sure what my point even is.
The furry fandom seems to strongly incentivise artists to draw/ paint/ produce characters that are not made by individual artists, but parts of massive mainstream media franchises. MLP, Digimon and Undertale are examples I can think of right away.
I have seen artists who create and invest work into their own world and characters and they do get a fan-base for it. However when these artists then put out basically the same work (same style and tech), but instead draw Renamon, Toriel or some FNAF character, everything suddenly spikes up: views, fave-hits, general traction. Comments though seem to be a mixed bag there.
I'm not sure, I suppose I wish that more people in the FF would give original characters a better chance on a larger scale.
The way things are right now make it seem like there are two rails things go on: the newer casual mainstream ones who just want to see ANYTHING from the super huge massive franchise and the more old-school nerdy furries who pay closer attention to the oc-stuff.
Another thing I personally always notice with myself is a real issue of over-exposure. I had this for many years, especially with MLP.
When I scout for what's new, I go on e621 to see all sorts of things people freshly upload. I DO NOT JOKE or exaggerate when I tell you that from 2010 to 2020, literally each and every single day there were always at least 2-8 MLP new related images on page one.
Having to constantly see one specific franchise being referenced over and over can really kill the tolerance and beyond a certain point it just gets annoying to see it so often.
Yes, there is the blacklist feature people like to point to, but here's the thing: I can't just (or YOU shouldn't just) blacklist everything I get slightly annoyed by, because then I would also miss out on some genuinely well done images!
Because for me, art technique, pleasant looking line-work and fun settings do indeed matter.
The latter point connects back to what I said earlier: well done art, but a lesser known character tends to get shafted by most people, but just because it's (stand-in, pick any super popular character) “Krystal Fox”, all of a sudden everyone goes ape-shit over it.
I know it's not the intended message, but you can't scold me for thinking that this seems to signal that most audiences don't really care about the effort put into the art, but more about the franchise.
And last for now, this is where it gets really fuzzy, because I myself also enjoy characters from other franchises. Most of you will know it's Dragon Tales, Land before Time and Dinosaur Train.
Granted those are all very small, therefore the over-exposure is not an argument, but I still bring it up, just so you know that I don't wanna deny anybody's enjoyment of any franchise.
If however there are already over 200.000 images of a certain franchise, I personally always feel like there is nothing I can possibly add anymore.
Last year I made an image of Lola Bunny just for the purpose of jumping on a bandwagon and some extra views.
It felt so utterly hollow and meaningless that I deleted it 3 days after I uploaded. It had over 530 faves and close to 2000 views (which is still a LOT for me), but next to nobody cared enough to say anything about the art itself. Nobody wondered where the image went and some of my longer time followers even told me they outright forgot I made that image in the first place.
...well anyway, maybe this is something you have thought about as well, so what are your 2 cents on this topic?
Stay tuned!
~Trias
The furry fandom seems to strongly incentivise artists to draw/ paint/ produce characters that are not made by individual artists, but parts of massive mainstream media franchises. MLP, Digimon and Undertale are examples I can think of right away.
I have seen artists who create and invest work into their own world and characters and they do get a fan-base for it. However when these artists then put out basically the same work (same style and tech), but instead draw Renamon, Toriel or some FNAF character, everything suddenly spikes up: views, fave-hits, general traction. Comments though seem to be a mixed bag there.
I'm not sure, I suppose I wish that more people in the FF would give original characters a better chance on a larger scale.
The way things are right now make it seem like there are two rails things go on: the newer casual mainstream ones who just want to see ANYTHING from the super huge massive franchise and the more old-school nerdy furries who pay closer attention to the oc-stuff.
Another thing I personally always notice with myself is a real issue of over-exposure. I had this for many years, especially with MLP.
When I scout for what's new, I go on e621 to see all sorts of things people freshly upload. I DO NOT JOKE or exaggerate when I tell you that from 2010 to 2020, literally each and every single day there were always at least 2-8 MLP new related images on page one.
Having to constantly see one specific franchise being referenced over and over can really kill the tolerance and beyond a certain point it just gets annoying to see it so often.
Yes, there is the blacklist feature people like to point to, but here's the thing: I can't just (or YOU shouldn't just) blacklist everything I get slightly annoyed by, because then I would also miss out on some genuinely well done images!
Because for me, art technique, pleasant looking line-work and fun settings do indeed matter.
The latter point connects back to what I said earlier: well done art, but a lesser known character tends to get shafted by most people, but just because it's (stand-in, pick any super popular character) “Krystal Fox”, all of a sudden everyone goes ape-shit over it.
I know it's not the intended message, but you can't scold me for thinking that this seems to signal that most audiences don't really care about the effort put into the art, but more about the franchise.
And last for now, this is where it gets really fuzzy, because I myself also enjoy characters from other franchises. Most of you will know it's Dragon Tales, Land before Time and Dinosaur Train.
Granted those are all very small, therefore the over-exposure is not an argument, but I still bring it up, just so you know that I don't wanna deny anybody's enjoyment of any franchise.
If however there are already over 200.000 images of a certain franchise, I personally always feel like there is nothing I can possibly add anymore.
Last year I made an image of Lola Bunny just for the purpose of jumping on a bandwagon and some extra views.
It felt so utterly hollow and meaningless that I deleted it 3 days after I uploaded. It had over 530 faves and close to 2000 views (which is still a LOT for me), but next to nobody cared enough to say anything about the art itself. Nobody wondered where the image went and some of my longer time followers even told me they outright forgot I made that image in the first place.
...well anyway, maybe this is something you have thought about as well, so what are your 2 cents on this topic?
Stay tuned!
~Trias
FA+

But coming from an artist who is very much doing their own thing, it's not always about gaining a giant-ass following. Sometimes it's about self-expression and staying true to one's vision. If people like my characters, that's great! However I'm not going to compromise what I'm doing here just to gain popularity. All I'm really after is to find the people who enjoy my little niche and share art with that circle.
However I'm not sure there is anything necessarily *wrong* with leaning into the mainstream a little bit. If it is our job as artists to give the people what they want to see, then should we not at least consider using that mainstream appeal to our advantage?
Especially when it comes to rather sticking to own vision, I can relate a lot and the pleasure and gratification is not really the prospect of popularity, but rather the people who come to stick around for that very vision.
I know focusing on numbers is not to be overrated, but I myself find that when I do my very own ideas and things, people seem to be a lot more prone to actually engage, comment and reply.
There is this nebulous saying I first heard on youtube that "when 10% of the viewers also like and comment, then that counts as very good". Going by that, my engagement rate is already a fair bit above that.
But anyway, niche or not, it's great when people find you and share your interest and are a part of it
more people know who the character is etc, vs new characters they are unfamiliar with.
That said i personally prefer original designs.
But i guess it's a lot harder to gain attention with those unless the design is really good.
And more power to you!
However, yeah it's an unavoidable problem and comes with the internet obsession with profitting without effort. I generally keep my stories and artwork shared only with personal friends I talk to on Telegram and discord occasionally as a result, and even then only a few trusted friends. Mostly cause to me, art has always been for passion and I dislike the idea of it being for profit. When I see big artists I look up to insulting me because my art isn't of "Value" or assuming I'm an amateur because I don't have a big following, it's really indicative of what this fandom has become, and the few people who I do stay connected to are fellow artists who have left the fandom for similar reasons, but still want to maintain that personal growth.
All in all though, can't really hold back a tidal wave by yourself, but you really don't need to in the end of the day. Just focus on doing what you love, improving yourself, being happy, and looking for inspiration wherever you go. None of these people seem to be happy about doing this as a job despite the numerous excuses they make, and I can't feel sympathy for their decision due to thier rudeness to me, but it's not my business....it's just depressing when an artist you look up to asks for help, you offer advice, and they insult you and just want your money...
I saw this "doing x for profit" thing a few times, though more related to certain fetishes the artists got sick of after a while, then "left the fandom after leaving a messages about how the fandom sucks". I'd believe you if that was totally true for people diving into franchises just for money as well.
Yeah see, I personally think artists talking down to other artists for their skill in particular are arrogant and probably not honest and/or serious about what they're actually doing. Those seem to have a pretty shallow personality.
Though I wouldn't necessarily generalize things by using the phrase "for profit", when most artists such as myself barely can pay their bills to begin with and sometimes need to rely on other support.
Of course that does not mean that there are some "bad apples" who actually do make PROFIT and so on.
I've been active for a good 15 years too and the idea of luring in people to pass paywalls never really sat right with me, be it with OCs or popular franchise characters. I am not against the concept per say, however I have also seen artists who public post nothing BUT "patreon teasers". Imo there should at least be a mix of things that you share in order to show off what you do and other projects people can specifically purchase.
The people leaving the fandom aren't really people leaving out of frustration and just "not drawing again". I should clarify these are people who still draw regularly or model regularly, but due to IRL circumstances and changes in personal project perspectives, the online fandom kind of became something they weren't really interested in engaging in. Cased of people stealing original characters to use as their own and profiting off of original ideas not yet released yet will generally scare people away from promoting something they put their heart into, since it may destroy the soul of the idea if everyone thinks it's just made for sale or propoganda (see what happened with Pepe the Frog and even MLP Friendship is Magic...to both creators' lament)
Though yeah, I'm not condemning the fact that people need to make a living off of this. That is totally fine and frankly the point of a job in general. However, the mindset that comes with the zealousness or the lack of long term purpose and over reliance on making sales does lead to people kind of forgetting the reason people generally become artists by making the sense of community turn into effectively fandom and commission wars or competition instead of people just appreciating what other people draw for fun. Having that strict for profit perspective makes for a cynical sense of community ultimately, even if people have valid reasons for doing it. Plus my golden response to everyone who says "Well I need to make a living too" is "So do I, so where is MY money coming from?" which more often than not elicits a "Well you're willing to work corporate. I'm not so....you need to pay me for this." Hopefully you can see why their attitude frustrates me. Especially when I'm just trying to help them get out of financial difficulty cause they asked for help.
To summarize, I see profiting as an ends to a means being the root of the problem, but I'm not against profiting as a means to an end.
And glad to hear you like my takes on Dragon Tales ^^
Staying as much in-canon with them as possible has been a goal there for me from the go, still with my personla spin on things, but that majorly related more to the surrounding of the characters, rather than their character traits and so on.
I never had any problems with any fan-base directly. Let me reiterate: it's not so much any particular franchise itself, it's the over exposure to it, which is not the fault of any individual, naturally.
and I love your interpretations! It seems to capture what life would be theoretically like for the dragons as they got older, like if they were adults. Since it's a show for young children, we'd never really see what goes on as they get older, but the implications are there, like Cassie and her numerous sisters and her effectively being a 6 year old mother to them all due to her parents always being offscreen. Or Zak and Wheezie's relationship seeming to go deeper than sibling love given Zak can't seem to spend a minute without her despite his reservations and Wheezie just loving him and everything in general. It's really cute and really showcases how these simple concepts are totally harmless and lead to a more peaceful life, but with adding what adults can appreciate, it's a world even adults could enjoy with a little more imagination. I noticed that with a lot of shows for very young kids and really like the subtle message they send ultimately.
And thanks again! Right on the money (no pun intended xD), I like taking the presented concepts a bit further and build on those, rather than just making things up ignoring the canon ^^
I think that artists who are trying to create a foothold with their original characters really need to establish their characters' personalities and worlds and give them life via a comic or series of animations or some medium that creates a connection with the viewer. Otherwise they kind of become background noise.
It made me think that there is indeed a weird line. On the one hand, MLP in particular is a cartoon like any other, therefore, yes, it can be in the furry fandom. However when it gets SO huge that said fandom basically started running their very own big hubs and all, does it make sense flooding furry spaces with it as well?
I don't think there is a clear or easy answer to that...
And the second point is very important as well, I agree!
Establishing your own world and lore is indeed hard work and requires tons and tons of dedication. Not everyone is cut out for that or even interested, you definitely need more than just pointing fingers at audiences.
A direct example I can give would be my own OC Soren. I introduced her in 2018 along with an entire story which goes over 60 pages, along with images. She became popular and appreciated pretty quickly and each time I doodle her in one of my streams, people are generally glad to see her.
Sometimes people do it to make easy money and views, sometimes they do it because they really enjoy the franchise and would rather do self inserts alongside the shows/movies/video games cast.
I'm guilty of commissioning fan art, whether it be my attempt to self insert my character or cosplay or just get art of the character from the franchise that I like.
When looking at the art I post; it gets more views and likes based on the content and characters. If it's general or focuses on paws and tickling, it tends to get more attention. If it's male on male, it tends to get more views. If it involves my odd niche, sneezing, it'll get very few views.
What bugs me is when artists don't properly tag their artwork, making it harder to find. This can contribute to the excessive amount of fan art getting more attention than original characters.
I'm also guilty of liking something but not commenting on it, because I don't know what to say. I'm not an artist so I have no experience as an artist, I can't recognize techniques or comment on them because I don't know, if it's an OC I can comment on the overall design, but with fan art I have little to go on unless it's taking something feral and making it anthro.
I'm rambling now, I apologize.
See, I think that if artists get good incentives when people like their original work, they have great encouragement to invest more work into it so the thing can grow and I think that's a very good thing to happen!
And no, that doesn't mean that I look down on fan art or people who prefer it, that'd be both arrogant and hypocritical.
Or at least that's what I often was told when I was starting up, it always seemed to leave me feeling pretty hollow for doing it afterwards, but I tried it a few times to say /I did it! It's Done, alright??/ without much luck as expected.
I do share a similar thinking to many of the things you mentioned, even so with the feeling that there seems to be only two roads to take, and if you have to decide you often end up feeling a little lost on why you decided to do it in the first place. (Even more so, when the entirety of one character only has about 70.000 pics/animations/renders/etc. made and counting)
I've been active for a while now, first in dA in 2012, during those first years with MLP:FIM, and I saw how most things were inclined mostly in favor of reusing the source material in order to make something new alongside with something familiar. - It was good for a while, but it became a little tiring after some time.
I do enjoy things I see of the franchise nowadays, since most are pretty good! - But it is true that, at least when it comes to a big majority, it feels as if there's a disadvantage for quite a few artsts that decide to take the route of no-fanarts.
Personally, in my own experience, it does become a bit more frustrating when you -do- want to push forward with an idea you've been working for years, learning different things to make it somewhat decent, but because of no support, you can't fully dive into it. And when asking, the most repeated advice is; ''You don't like drawing famous characters? Why wouldn't someone want to draw mostly topical fanarts for exposure?'' as someone who's had to explain it many times before, I'm kinda happy to have read something that did feel a little how I've felt for a long time. ^^
Personally I think that the question should never be what makes one popular, but more what one's passionate about.
I thought about this many times and the best conclusion that I have is that literally everything is a clusterfuck and seems to make little to no sense in general. It goes beyond OC and fanart, a good technique still seems to matter, good ideas you can communicate efficiently also matter almost even more.
The franchises I am passionate about are all not very widely spread, even though a good number of folks know them. I approach them all with a mindset similar to the one I have towards my very own lore and the followeship gathered over the years seems to appreciate them all, maybe because of that.
And yeah, there is nothing more I can relate to than this feeling of hollowness when trying to draw wildly popular characters I just don't care about. Sometime last year, I was on a good roll, I tried to doodle Maid Marian and just had to stop after a while because it was a whole lot of nothing; it's just not worth it.
Last not least, as I said: fan art and fanchises and everything are not per say BAD and of course, you can find both jewely as well as stinkers everywhere on both sides x3
Though I also feel that certain people spread a kinda negative attitude on this. I've seen quite a handful of people go "well, of course nobody cares about your random OC" or "you make original content for yourself and fan art for attention". But, like, I'm also a small timer, so I'm pretty indifferent to it all.
Original characters do seem to be a lot harder for a lot of people to relate to. Franchises have worlds and lore and expectations people can easily project themselves into since it's made for a mass audience. They may not do so with individual characters and stories, and those characters won't have a lot of following to start with, even if the characters are recognized from elsewhere.
That doesn't mean that smaller creators can never get anywhere though. The effort can indeed pay off. I think I mentioned it above somewhere, imo there should be a balance that both artists and audience should aim at, at least every once in a while. It shouldn't be an "either or" thing, if that makes sense.
The hard part is thinking on how you can get to that point yourself, which is compounded by the fact that you alone are responsible for the content of your characters to establish that investment. Plenty of folks make comics and stuff. Heck, there's some artists who's characters are so notable they get as much fanart as original drawings. JAEH's Busty Bird and TheyCallHimCake's Cassie come to mind for that. And they don't even do that much with them in terms of character development! (Well, JAEH does have an origin comic going, but she was popular prior to that too).
Hmm, maybe it's a matter of commissioners liking characters enough to get pictures with them, thus spreading awareness by exposing them to the followers of other artists in an art style that appeals to them? I know there's a few I see around because of that where I can go "Oh hey it's that guy!". But it's not like you can just bribe commissioners to do that with yours, and you're not exactly made of money yourself.
It is a bit interesting that this isn't the first time I've seen such thoughts brought up recently, though admittedly the other mention I saw was in the other direction, saying "Don't bother with OC stuff just draw mass market characters" which is dumb.
And yeah, absolutely, if you wanna see some nice or lewd art of a franchise you have been exposed to already, obviously that's the the first thing you will have an eye out for.
"I can only speak for myself, but I know there are pictures that I find good simply because it involves a character I enjoy, and I know that if it was a different character or one I wasn't familiar with then I wouldn't like it as much."
Imo that verges very strongly on a different topic, which would be "context" and I would agree that context related pictures which show a certain scene or comedic or lewd moment work a LOT better when you're familiar with the characters. Then the entire thing gains a lot more subtstance because there are known backstories.
Since you brought up Busty Bird yourself, I think you can easily agree that it's not simple, but most definitely possible. However I would also like to stress that there is a luck factor and not a set recipe anybody can follow to achieve the same thing.
Tbh I disagree with putting any responsibility on any individual other than adivising artists to make smart decisions for themselves. It's on the arist/writer/creator to MAKE their own work interesting for others. When the job is done well enough, people will start showing that desired interest all by themselves.
Now if I HAD to "point" at the single person looking at all the art, I suppose I would rather request they should take their time to look at everything and just CONSIDER giving some other character a try (granted, this would ideally happen under the assumption that something actually did provoke genuine interest).
Your last paragraph... I admit I wasn't really aware that was even a thing, it strongly reminds me of some super dooper bad "art advice" I saw on youtube regarding "how to be a good artist on instagram", which basically boils down to: pick a lane, stick to one very specific thing. Aka "don't get creative".
I have absolutely neither any idea nor sympathy why this is brought up as advice to begin with. If not scolded, those people are best being ignored.
I mean... yeah, I myself have a very specific style and everything, but in my case, I never noticed any major difference when I make pictures that involve my own lore with the dinosaurs compared to Dragon Tales or Land Before Time. A few REALLY blew up, but admittidly those also included current memes I just jumped on to mock them, being a part of it in a more satirical way, BUT the same thing also happened when I did the meme-stuff with my own OCs... (it'd be meme-recognition, I guess you can call)
Anyway, I agree, it's not good to tell people to only draw mass market characters.
I will say I do appreciate other works, but it's more "in spite" of the characters rather than because of the characters, if that makes sense. "This picture is hot because the ass is really well done" vs "This picture is hot because SoAndSo is in it". But then that's sort of what this journal's about.
The other part is the idea being sold in the art itself, that can be entertaining all on its own, to varying degrees.
^An important statement. As a musician and composer myself, I will always remember this quote from a famous composer: 'adding more trumpets actually makes the orchestra quieter'. And I feel this fits well with the proliferation of franchise material.
Familiarity sells and generates revenue. Yes, the returns for drawing existing franchise content is indeed money, reward and popularity, while canon OCs return less. However, IMO the latter is a more intimate experience because with canon OCs, you are realising the creation of a new (and very often) original idea.
Don't get me wrong, I like franchise OC lewds from time to time (e.g. Pokemon). But I personally feel that the experiential challenge of realising canon OCs is in the spirit of artistic innovation and progress. It's about moderation.
Yeah, so do I, I deliberately used the word "fuzzy" because I am not even sure if I would honestly call anything a "real problem" there.
It's very possible that I merely have a deep desire of more people just giving something else a chance.
And "moderation" is a great word to bring to the table. Every once in a while, it's indeed nice to create something that is NOT utterly loaded with story and both artists and audience can enjoy a simple thing for what it is, ie some thicc ass Nidoqueen spread eagle in bed (or something, pick anything).
If we wanna be unflattering, we can call pictures like that flat and shallow, however they still got value as escapism, because relaxation is also important.
I like to think that drawing main-stream characters from media is a fitting vehicle for sharpening skills while you can build up in order to be able to pull off your own thing. The fan-art can show others what you're capable of and with a mix of skill and luck, enough people stick around and get interested in the other things you do as an artist. The best case scenario is when the fan-art is actually SOMEWHAT related to your other goals, however that might not always be possible.
Also... there is a saying your quote reminds me of: "the devil always shits on the largest pile" xD
I actually have seen plenty of talented artist in the intermediate phase as well as those who verge on the pro-level actually not getting all THAT much a reward out of fan art, simply because they drown in the sea of X (best example being MLP, like in many cases).
As a consumer, I do value a lot original artwork and creature content a lot, very eager to learn about what some other creators managed to come up with or simply their own twist of a certain thing from a public media.
As an artist myself, boy do I feel bummed that I barely rises any curiosity from my viewers or even close internet contacts with the thing brewed up myself. My adventure on F-list for the rp stuff made me learned how harsh some players can be toward OCs, them that just wants to lewd iconic chars...
Not gonna lie, I get sometimes a little peeved when in discord people jut get overexcited in a repeated way over nsfw art pieces of Celestia and the like ">w>...
Regarding RP things, there is not much I can say other than it makes me uncomfortable and I avoid it.
Yes, it can be super discouraging, especially when you start out as an artist. I like bringing up MLP because it's such a good example of what I mean when I started this topic and unfortunately it ALWAYS flows into different subjects, making it hard to condense down.
Right now, the tag "my little pony" is on 274.000 submissions on e621. I do use the website because it's such a huge hub for basically everything and people there being pedantic with the tagging system actually helps when you wanna look for specific things.
One point there I think is valid is, that when the pool is THAT large, it naturally gets very very difficult to actually stick out. Surely, coming up with your own personal spin on that certain franchise can be many good things: fresh, new, never seen before, exotic, creative, etc.
But there's already a gazillion of it!
So even if your idea is great and even you improved your skills as an artist a good bit, there is still a chance that by the time you uploaded your results, it takes 24-48 hours till your work just dissapears on page 3 or 4 (and coming from google: what's not on page 1 doesn't exist, if you know what I mean).
You make a valid point and honestly, due to the community, unfortunately, it bounds to happen a lot and there is nothing anyone can do to stop it. It's just the simple minded thing we all have. "I see my favorite popular character made? Time to simp for it."
I believe artists (who drew those characters) and every OCs around should get more exposure rather than the popular franchise characters themselves. At least, I think this was the point being made.
I think it's important to stress that the point shouldn't be "ignore popular things" or anything. It's really more about just giving something else also a chance. That shouldn't be too much to hope for, I don't think.
However I also have the slight suspicion that many people either aren't willing or don't have the time to TAKE their time and take a closer look at all the other fascinating options that are out there.
I feel like it has to do with "if the artist can 'click' with that character or not". Especially the kind they are primarily specialize in. For example, you're specialize in dragons and dinos while also possibly able to do other kind of species too. Some artist has a taste in some popular characters and willing to continue to draw them as a whole.
It happens.
I do agree that people should look into something else instead of focus on something that's already out there and heavily simped for, but sometimes, if it works for you, do it.