At the very least it sounds like a bad customer that I would never work with again. I've never heard of anybody doing all the work up front except for very brand new artists who haven't gotten burned yet. Usually it's payment in full after the sketch or half up front half when finished, something like that.

Yeah, same here. I got a bit psyched out early on by the "professional illustrator" job title and was doing a different quoting method than I normally would (hourly, instead of a project-based quote). I think I just ended up digging myself in too deep by being passive (I really wanted to work on the project in the beginning lol), I should've been more upfront with how I usually work @~@

Honestly, just put your foot down. Tell them you will finish the project as is and extra fixes are going to cost more. Even explain to them, in a professional manner, that this isn't okay behavior.

Or just drop them.

Thankfully the fixes do automatically cost more because the work is being charged by the hour instead of having an up front quote. It's part of how I ended up in this mess haha, not my normal way of charging for work. I'm a pretty non-confrontational person so I've been very soft in trying to explain the issue to them, but they straight up don't get it lol. I'm hanging in there because $200 is a lot of money for me if/when they finally approve this dang thing for shading

$280 isn't worth a half-year headache. Time is money, money is food and rent, and they're wasting it. Cut your losses and show 'em the shape of Italy before it gets out of hand.

Might sound a bit harsh but it isn't right how they're treating you.

I'm stealing the phrase "show 'em the shape of Italy," thank you for the needed chuckle!

And it may be harsh but it is definitely true. u_u I keep hanging in there because it seems like I'm so close to seeing that payment, but considering how much they keep moving the goalpost with fixes it's probably a lot farther away than it feels.

Having worked with publishers I can confidently say this is NOT how the legitimate ones work. Publishers deal with contracts and clear art briefs that outline the specifics of their requirements. They also deal with deadlines. Rossi Publishing Games, the one I work for, pays upfront and provides a bonus if completed on time and to spec.

From what their Operations Manager has said, children's books are very risky. They just released their first. I was paid on completion, but the artist was paid in advance and given a set royalty on sales. I get a royalty too.

If you have questions about that stuff, I'll gladly volunteer that OM's time. 👿 DM me for his email address. He also might be able to help determine what you can do if you send him the wording of your agreement or contract.

Honestly this info alone has been EXTREMELY helpful and reassuring. I'm sorry for the late response, the client in question just got back with an angry rant about how long the project is taking and I invested a few hours into a professional "listen here" e-mail lol (currently unsent, I gotta get back to it with a clearer head tomorrow).

I've been so in my head about this whole thing but you're kind of the last straw making me realize this really is just some random person lol. It sounds like from what you're saying, that the publishers work more with the artists than the authors do, if I'm hearing correctly? There was no real contract or direction from this person, just a very loose agreement that started to fall apart the more fixes were added in. I was so blinded by wanting more children's book illustration work that I ignored a lot of red flags x,x

In my currently unsent e-mail I'm laying out the amount of WIPs I've sent (44), the amount of client pieces that have been completed since her one piece was taken on (36), the amount of fully illustrated books completed in the same timeframe (2) and there's just something about seeing it all laid out in numbers that's really eye opening 😭This is a mess haha

My publisher keeps me more in the loop than some. This isn't a professional. This is someone who dreams of doing a children's book, but lacks the talent or connections necessary to see it happen. I asked my publisher about what's happening to you and he said it was full of warning signs he wished more people knew about.
1. Businesses run on contracts. It's not just about the legal stuff; it's about having clearly defined responsibilities. He'll go without a contract for some things, but even if there's no contract and signatures, there is a written conversation that clearly lays out the expectations.
2. Exposure is not a form of payment. Sounds like this may or may not have been a factor, but it's actually a really big pet peeve for him. Some people and places will promise it's a chance for your work to be seen and try to make it sound like that has some mysterious value. I'll give the short version of this one because he'll go on and on about it. A. You have value. If you didn't, they wouldn't approach you. B. Buy a Google ad for yourself instead. It's more cost/time effective and your time has value.
3. They don't value your vision and/or experience as an artist. For all his faults, my publisher does give full leeway to the artist. He only asks for changes if the artwork contradicts existing lore or varies significantly from the brief. He's handed me the final brief he negotiated and told ME to rewrite the story to match it. There was even a case where he got the final art, it matched the brief but the artist had a slightly different view, so I was asked to match the image in the writing.
4. The BIG publishing black hole. The average book only sells about 5k copies. Amazing huh? That average does not include two specific areas because they skew the numbers way too much: Children's books and cook books. They're both considered extremely high risk with average sales around 500 or so.
5 Absence of commercial license and/or royalty. With no contract (at the time I was assuming there was none), there is no legal definition of who has rights to the artwork. I hadn't thought of this one because I don't work with this side of things at all. Commercial license, the thing that allows the person to sell your artwork rather than just display it, requires a legal contract or outright fraud to gain a government copyright. That contract should contain either an upfront payment for the right to resell, a royalty paid from gross sales (don't let them use net sales it makes it too easy to play with the numbers), or both.
Two things are unique about RP Games in regards to artwork: They have a written policy prohibiting the use of free or AI generated art. Given their field in the third party publishing field for roleplaying games, that's... bold on their part. They pay a bonus outside of contract for work that's on time or at least close to it if life happens. In their own words, "We want to make sure artists know we value their work even more than they themselves value it."
And after all that, he said to just give his email in case you or other artists have questions. carl at realRPGames dot com.

He also suggested you only release proofs with a large watermark and if things turn sour and you need to stop the work, they have nothing to use. Where there is no contract, you'd be within your rights to stop work. Without a contract there's this... thing... I forget what he called it, but it has to do with what a reasonable person would expect and there are plenty of artists who say this is way beyond reasonable.

This is all ringing so true with me right now. Sadly since my last message to you the whole e-mail chain with this client has devolved into a complete mess. I'm glad I put this journal up because right now it's a series of insults and intimidation tactics coming my way and I'm not folding. It may warrant an update journal, but I'm waiting for the client to sever ties (my last e-mail was just to say "This conversation is not moving forward in a productive manner. Are you still interested in moving forward with the piece?")

Thankfully I was in-line with that last bit of advice! The work has the amount of time invested written onto it, large printing guidelines, and I was sending off low res files once things with payment started getting dodgy. I do think I'll send an e-mail over to your guy to ask about whether I should refund the partial payment (I think it comes down to the terms I wrote into my invoice), and whether it'd be legally sound to auction off the completed background to other potential buyers haha. Thank you again for all of this, this has been incredibly helpful and I appreciate the time it took!

Glad to help. I know that when things like this happen, it's a huge relief to just know someone else is with you.

I checked to see if there are any children's book contracts up at RP Games. There are two awaiting right of first refusal... Whatever that means. I was afraid to ask. I think he's waiting for an artist to decide if she wants to take the contract.

You know! I think that's something I'll look into. I'm not sure how often they look for artists, but they sound wonderful to work with! And I'm likely going to have a lot less on my plate soon. ^^'

Best of luck to you. His wife says he answered your email and asked for a portfolio. She's the publisher btw, so in theory knows stuff like that. If he offers you to illustrate Arc 1.2, that'd be awesome! That's a fun one that's had bad luck finding artists.
If he does make an offer and you want artists' referrals to make sure he's legit, you can check with Golden Druid and Ellen Natalie. Both have worked directly with him. I suggest you do. It's a good idea to ask for referrals before taking on large jobs and that's a good place to start. Golden is on here and I can get Ellen's email address for you.

I'd appreciate that! I've gone through the e-mail and honestly have been spending a large part of the day getting my poor outdated portfolio in shape haha. Refunded this problem client too and feeling better for it. :) Thank you again so much!

I'm glad that's worked out. I'm sure it's a big relief. Removing toxic people from our lives, even (and sometimes especially) the ones who don't really know how toxic they are, is like taking in the air after a fresh rain. Hopefully the client learned some valuable lessons, but if not, sounds like you did at least. The client might have thought s/he was doing the right thing by being a "stickler for quality" and not realizing what was really happening was a great way to get worse art.
Golden Druid's email is golden druid art at gmail dot com and Ellen's is natalie dot ellen 87 at gmail dot com.
Mine is chaaya dot chandra at pm dot me.

Thank you so much! :) Saved each of these!