Honestly these younger furs need to know that without the older furs that were around, there wouldn't be a fandom.

If they don't learn, the younger furs are gonna be the ones to dismantle the fandom into many broken pieces. If anything we all should be working together to make the fandom welcoming and safe for young and old.

It's already happening now with "puriteens" deeming anything sexual in the fandom as bad when it's one of the few places where such freedom is allowed. And if they get rid of that, then where are they gonna go when they come of age to express that side of themselves without much judgement? And they can't get mad if they aren't able to because they set themselves up for it

I understand that there's many things that need to be fixed but nothing is gonna be done if generations are constantly at each other's throats.

It's a nice trick to tell folks that the only way to be is "clean" since it's easy to make the opposite "perverted", but it's always a trap. It's always a way of getting folks to put themselves into neat little cells or back into the closet, because there's no such thing as "normal" and they're not yet old enough to realize that.

Another thing is that people have to stop equating wholesomeness with "never getting into anything naughty... Ever
Even if you're an adult". Just because a person chooses to be clean doesn't mean that they don't have desires and such. This whole crusade against naughtiness within the fandom from younger furs against older furs and the like reminds me of the Burned Furs movement, which while it was before I became a furry myself, had shared similar ideals but this time it's warped into a different sense to have us go against each other to cause division from the inside...

On one side, I can understand why some are being like this because they want to curate a more safer space for minors and such and some adults are not taking much responsibility in doing so. I get that. They want to feel safe and not be taken advantage of adults. But saying that adults should stop being naughty in general doesn't make much sense because adults could do what they want to do as long as it isn't illegal. And there's the case of minors trying to sneakily enter into adult spaces which brings me to my next point...

Adults are doing their best to curate their space to make sure that minors are kept out so that they could be they can keep the minors from trouble and trying to keep themselves out of jail. I mean this is obviously not a problem at all if you're running a sfw space but this is more catered to nsfw places. There are teens that are in their rebellious phase thinking that they are mature enough and could handle anything sneaking into adult spaces (Trust me, I was one of them! Lol... But at least I was sneaky about it. I still don't recommend it at all...) but we're trying to keep them out for their own good until they they're of age to decide.

Which brings me to next point...
So younger furs are against older furs because they think that all older people have outdated mindsets and are too old to be a furry... There's a real difference with dealing with outside people who have outdated values rather than dealing with people who have been on the same boat as you have who have invaluable advice to give... And older furs are against younger furs because they're not gonna stand to be bossed around by younger people who think that they shouldn't belong because they're just old

I am thankful that I've met and befriended some that don't think like this. When I was younger, I learned to respect the older furs since they're an invaluable source for the fandom and they know what's best. And since I'm older and listening to my younger friends, I can understand what we could do more to keep furry weird but still a safe space for all. There just has to be working together from both sides because if there's no compromise then there won't be a future for this fandom

Thank you for your astute comments. I know you, and you know me. I’m not driving a stake into a dead mammal. When my husband passed away, I lost everything. And being a teacher in Catholic grammar schools for 32 years, I have an inquiring mind. But I am also Italian, and I inherited a bad trait from my mother, lol. I speak my mind. People live told me that they either hate me or love me. There is no middle ground. And so I post to the journal a little bit stronger than I would’ve posted. Greymuzzles are the backbone of the furry fandom. Younger members have all the drive and a lot of them don’t pay attention to anyone. The fandom can be totally taken apart if people can’t come to see eye to eye.

Do you want my honest opinion? You won't like it

I would not expect anything other than honesty from you--whether or not I agree.

The furry fandom is not nearly as inclusive as it claims, I'd agree. Ageism is especially bad, I'll agree too.

My problem though is with your example, Mr. Dineegla. I had one conversation with him that amounted to him exploding at me over misreading a post I made, then telling me not to speak to him when I explained what I meant. For the record, I don't even remember what I was talking about at the time. I know this, that was his first impression with me. I thought nothing positive, I don't want to interact with someone that prickly. People are prejudice, it comes from evolution, we divide ourselves into tribes. But we also have to acknowledge something else. If we blow up at people, if we keep them at a distance, that plays a part as well. People who are young and stupid don't listen when they should, I agree. But people who are older are just as guilty of being closed off.

Din has blown up on me too, which is part of my frustration. I've no clue how to deal with that. I feel sorry for him because his husband died and he's alone, but I don't know how to help him, especially when the response is basically yelling at me.

While I'm concerned about him, I feel like there's not a great deal I can actually do. However, I'm also hoping that it doesn't end up being where elder furs are shunted into "get off my lawn" stereotypes. I, myself, am very worried about what will happen in my future as my family and friends get older and (eventually) die.

If it ends up that way, then both old and young played a part

I do apologize sweetie. You know do you became very close to me that day at Anthrocon when you handed me a picture that you drew. You didn’t really know me, and I’m sure you really didn’t know how I would feel, but I have that picture in a special place because it was given to me by somebody, who didn’t consider me a popufur, but myself and my husband as a team that wants the best for the fandom

I have a mix of Italian, Irish, and German relatives. Folks having somewhat volatile tempers are not new to me. But I've seen your particular type of anger before in other older folks. Folks who are angry and bitter as they've had too much sorrow. I don't know how to help with that. I can only try to be sympathetic.

OK. I’m glad I read this. And for your information, it’s hard after you’ve lost a husband of 16 years. I made no excuses, but… I welcome you to talk to me again. I didn’t know that I had that effect on you, and I apologize.
I am also sorry that I found this by looking at somebody’s journal. Everyone, EVERYONE who knows me knows that I’m a decent man, and I try to give everybody the benefit of the doubt.

I have DM’d you. I hope we can work better, especially if I should set a better example

Boomer isn't even about positions or issues, it's just people who were born from parents right after WW2. The term has been pretty messed up though. ^.^;;

Most of them are retired, and some are still running things and it's nuts...

I'm only 41 myself, and I've known a lot of older furs who passed away. Still, there's this weird idea going on that there's something bad about being furry if you're over 30, that is different from the usual "Don't Trust Anyone Over Thirty" sort of thing. It's not everywhere, but a lot of younger furries are explicitly avoiding or intentionally excluding older ones, even though they're all adults.

It shouldn't be about positions or issues, but it's basically come to include a group of older people who have the really bad attitude of "I got mine" and who seem to live in a world that no longer exists.

I'm honestly not sure if this isn't a US thing or not. In the US hyphenated families are so common that it seems like there's few ways for older and younger people to maintain contact.

There are folks like that here in Canada, too. Many things here are different but similar to the U.S. and a lot of folks here immigrated from there, so there's cultural transferrence.

My Dad is in the boomer generation, and he's definately got a different idea of what the federal Conservatives here in Canada are like compared to what they are, based on what he used to know. Too much has changed and they're taking advantage of folks who trust them and think they're the same as the Progressive Conservatives were.

Still, a lot of them are just out of the loop, they're not actively trying to be a problem, and a lot of us other older furs are still younger than that too.

First of all, I want you to know that my husband that I married was Canadian. It took me forever to get used to the politeness of my neighbors up north *grins*. Please feel free to connect with me here or dineegla on Telegram. Indagare raises a good point. But in the fandom, I don’t see older people who say I got mine, and the hell with the rest of you. But I see a lot of Greymuzzles, leaving the fandom because they aren’t being heard, or what they are saying is twisted by the younger people. Or have simply given up. I was recently in a group on Telegram. The group is named Greymuzzles (25+). There is no way somebody at 25 years old is going to be able to relate to somebody who is 40, or 50, or even 70 if they’ve had no experience with dealing with the older generation. My late husband used to push me around MFF in my wheelchair. We had a lot of fun. MFF this year I was on a scooter, and it felt totally different for me for many reasons. I don’t charge high prices for art, I don’t have a fursuit, so I can’t be with the “in crowd,” there were very few panels on art, and there was one that was 18+ and if my scooter wasn’t blocked in by the large attendance, I would’ve left immediately. There was a young man who was having problems expressing himself, since this was a adult panel. But the people in charge made fun of him, and while it was funny to them, I could see the young man wishing he never said anything. That is not my fandom and making fun of someone in a large group directly to their face shows no respect for anyone.

Oh Indi. This is such a relevant issue. I'm glad you brought it up.

Thanks! It's been on my mind a lot lately.

maybe you won't mind my jumping in with this hot take indagare:

which is, there probably has never been a time, in Human History, in which concurrent younger generations, older generations, and those "tweeners," largely have seen eye-to-eye with each other

or..
..it could be posited, the vocal minorities from each group don't allow it to be so



(on the other hand...
...there is no telling, the untold number of people who have severe psychological / personality disorders

like it or not, such individuals do live among us
and, unfortunately, we do have to deal with them)



´s funny, though..
..the inevitability, how these young folk are gonna become us (and gray•muzzles) as well, in time

and, that, they of course shall replay the same conversations, the same scenarios we're having in the here-and-now


have you ever, actually, envisioned a world where most citizens, more \ less, get on in harmony?

let me tell you when that may happen: once, Humanity has settled down

once, humanity finally reaches an equilibrium
(no, i won't go into detail how that may be accomplished, indagare)

I will leave you with a thought. I remember reading about a young man who said he was so excited to become a Greymuzzle at 30 years old. Given the ruthlessness young furs have attacked Greymuzzles, I would kind of like to know why that young man would put himself in a position That he might later regret

to answer that, d, we'd have to learn the kid's reasoning

did it go beyond his, simply, fetishizing (us) older folk?

did this come from a genuine place of reverence?

is it, rather, that he —in a fit of disillusionment— extremely reject his peers (and younger): wanting to distance himself from them, as much as he might?

---

what are our options?

what can we do to make the pain stop?

realistically, i mean, d

It’s realistic to understand that there is power in numbers. I’m not saying we have to take back the fandom from the young people. Far be it. There’s an awareness that they could begin to understand I think I’m sure this would never happen, but it would really be nice if we had a panel about the history of the fandom. My sadness occurs when I see younger people at conventions not giving a care, acting malicious towards others, ending up with alcohol poisoning, because of the room parties, and general disrespect for the hotels. I’m in a wheelchair. There is a slope or two at MFF, which I cannot navigate but when I see people walking past their eyes glued to their phones, and no concern for anyone else, including running into me and acting like it’s my fault, then I think there’s something wrong. We always know the first suitors need to have handlers, and we respect that, and we know why. But when I am in a wheelchair, and I am told to come to the front of the line, because I’m handicapped, and I hear people, muttering under their breath, how rude am I, I begin to think maybe it’s not Just me. If you wish I would like to continue this conversation.

we may continue this conversation, yes

though, i should advise-in-advance, my foreseeing our possibly diverging on one or two "key" points — though, i would hope, this difference in opinion shan't be insurmountable


rest assured, at least, i do agree that Lacking of Manners (in general) / Lacking of Regard for Others is substantially appalling; and, verily, is one of the reasons i foresee our societal downfall occurring sooner than later

---

i may also advise..
..i'm kinda a "furry adjacent"—
—a casual, as it were

i didn't ever (and, don't intend to) get too deep in the fandom; and, with this, comes my not knowing many revered figures — of which, i'm being led to conclude, you are one such, dineegla
my apologies in advance, regarding my not being familiar with your pedigree (to my knowledge)

No I’m gonna leave you with another thought. @MFF, there are rooms for silence, there are rooms for peacefully, relaxing, they have psychologists on staff to help people. They have panels on how to navigate your life, and much much more. I find it amazing that this is some thing that would even be necessary, but here we are. It would be delightful. If people in general would come to a convention, and say, “excuse me, pardon me, I’m in a fursuit, and I did not see you there, or they would talk to their handler and tell them to be more careful. Last MFF was the first time I was without my late husband(and grieving), and he used to push me everywhere, and he used to watch out for me. This time I used a scooter, and to be honest with you I want to make sure if I get a scooter again I have a long flag on the long pole letting people know that I’m there. We also have a disabilities department at MFF and I am sure they get to the point where it could be frustrating for anyone but if I’m in a wheelchair and it starts raining outside and I decided not to use the skyway, because that would be hard extremely hard to navigate if I don’t have someone pushing me, I would be at a loss and maybe even soaking wet, and I may not enjoy the con.

this seems to be a universal truth, at least for us americans: that, our reverence for the disabled, and the elderly, sorely lacks

what bothers me is, those who perpetrate the Lack of Regard, fail to realize they themselves can be rendered handicapped within a literal blink of an eye; that, assuming they live long enough, they too will become Elderly


if it were up to me, i'd make it quite warm for any such person who demonstrates their brains don't function quite as they need to (as far as, promoting a peaceful, coöperative society, goes, D)