The Trolley Problem
8 months ago
https://picarto.tv/SimonAquarius for my livestreams, everyone's invited
https://www.patreon.com/simonaquarius to support my comic on Patreon
https://www.patreon.com/simonaquarius to support my comic on Patreon
So the trolley problem has had a bunch of different forms, trying to change the parameters and see what matters to people, things like age or whatever. How about instead we just change how the scenario began.
There's five people on one track and the other is empty and the trolley will go down the empty path. A person comes along and flips the lever so the trolley will now run over the five people, and they themselves get onto the other track for one reason or another. So now the scenario is the same as before, five innocent people on one track, one innocent person on the other, a trolley is coming down the line, and you can flip the lever, dooming the single innocent person and saving five lives.
You might feel that the single person isn't innocent, they were dooming other people by flipping the lever first, but at this moment in time they are still innocent, nobody has died yet, and if they die now then it would be your fault for choosing not to save them. But choosing to switch the tracks and killing a single person, saving the lives of many, that's still your fault.
But this introduces a new problem. If you stopped them from flipping the lever in the first place, and so they never got onto the tracks, would that be better than flipping the lever once they'd gotten settled in? Would it be better to prevent people from taking advantage of others for personal gain in the first place, especially when lives are on the line? Should things like health insurance be banned because it inevitably leads to either the deaths of many, or the deaths of the few who would doom them?
I don't think this trolley problem is the same as the original. In the original, the trolley running over the five people wouldn't instantly make the innocent individual on the other track turn into a murderer. But, if a decision is made that will definitely end lives that would otherwise have been saved, even if its decades after the decision, it's just as indirect a murder as flipping the lever the first time was. Unlike the trolley problem though, it's hard to get information about how many lives might have been saved if insurance companies didn't control medical procedures. All we can do is compare parts of the world that rely on health insurance for medical care, and parts of the world that pays for it through taxes.
Or, we can count the number of people who get funding online to pay for their operations, because without that funding their insurance wouldn't help them, and they would die. With this, we know of at least a few people who are on the other track. Definitely not all of them, but a countable number that are definitely there.
So, in real life the reason for the single innocent person flipping the lever and getting on the other track is because there was a lot of money on it, and a lot of people were paying them to hand them the money that was there. So, is the problem really the individual, or is it the people paying them? If it wasn't them, someone else might have done it, and why would someone build a track with all that money on it. Maybe the problem wasn't people taking advantage at the cost of others lives, maybe the problem is that the lever was the only way to reach the money, or that there was money on the track at all. Maybe the solution was brakes for the trolley, and to not make it profitable by dooming people.
There's five people on one track and the other is empty and the trolley will go down the empty path. A person comes along and flips the lever so the trolley will now run over the five people, and they themselves get onto the other track for one reason or another. So now the scenario is the same as before, five innocent people on one track, one innocent person on the other, a trolley is coming down the line, and you can flip the lever, dooming the single innocent person and saving five lives.
You might feel that the single person isn't innocent, they were dooming other people by flipping the lever first, but at this moment in time they are still innocent, nobody has died yet, and if they die now then it would be your fault for choosing not to save them. But choosing to switch the tracks and killing a single person, saving the lives of many, that's still your fault.
But this introduces a new problem. If you stopped them from flipping the lever in the first place, and so they never got onto the tracks, would that be better than flipping the lever once they'd gotten settled in? Would it be better to prevent people from taking advantage of others for personal gain in the first place, especially when lives are on the line? Should things like health insurance be banned because it inevitably leads to either the deaths of many, or the deaths of the few who would doom them?
I don't think this trolley problem is the same as the original. In the original, the trolley running over the five people wouldn't instantly make the innocent individual on the other track turn into a murderer. But, if a decision is made that will definitely end lives that would otherwise have been saved, even if its decades after the decision, it's just as indirect a murder as flipping the lever the first time was. Unlike the trolley problem though, it's hard to get information about how many lives might have been saved if insurance companies didn't control medical procedures. All we can do is compare parts of the world that rely on health insurance for medical care, and parts of the world that pays for it through taxes.
Or, we can count the number of people who get funding online to pay for their operations, because without that funding their insurance wouldn't help them, and they would die. With this, we know of at least a few people who are on the other track. Definitely not all of them, but a countable number that are definitely there.
So, in real life the reason for the single innocent person flipping the lever and getting on the other track is because there was a lot of money on it, and a lot of people were paying them to hand them the money that was there. So, is the problem really the individual, or is it the people paying them? If it wasn't them, someone else might have done it, and why would someone build a track with all that money on it. Maybe the problem wasn't people taking advantage at the cost of others lives, maybe the problem is that the lever was the only way to reach the money, or that there was money on the track at all. Maybe the solution was brakes for the trolley, and to not make it profitable by dooming people.
FA+


bobingabout
WhiteChimera
Samhat1
MrSandwichesTheSecond
Time can be a major factor in exploring that line: is it better to kill someone now, or to kill someone in 20 years? Numbers are important: is it more painful for one person to watch five people die, or for five people to all watch one person die? But I feel like your wording is problematic. Are all parties innocent? Should that be up to the other person to decide? I feel like you can get a better result by being more neutral, or by controlling the information you provide.
1) "The Trolly is racing down a track and will hit no one. If you hit the switch, the Trolly will kill five people instead."
2) "The Trolly is racing down a track and will kill five people. If you hit the switch, it will kill one person who previously, for reasons you're uncertain of, sent the Trolly hurtling towards five people instead of an empty track."
3) "The Trolly is racing down a track and will kill five people. If you hit the switch, it will kill one person who previously, unknowingly, sent the Trolly hurtling towards five people instead of an empty track."
4) "The Trolly is racing down a track and will kill five people. If you hit the switch, it will kill one person who previously, and with full knowledge of consequences, sent the Trolly hurtling towards five people instead of an empty track."
5) "The Trolly is hurtling down a track and will kill five people over the course of X years. If you hit the switch, it will kill one person within X years who had previously directed the Trolly to the track with 5 people on it."
6) "The Trolly is hurtling down a track and will kill five people over the course of X years. If you hit the switch, it will kill one person within X years who was paid Y amount of money to direct the Trolly to the track with 5 people on it."
You get multiple data points here. This is the problem you set out, with six answers that people need to provide. You can make variants of the X and Y values to further explore the line. This is the value of the Trolly Problem as a thought experiment.
I'm also going to disagree with saying the solution is that the Trolly needs brakes. I think there's some limited use in drilling down on certain ideas where a percent chance of the Trolly braking could be interesting, but it's against the entire conceit of the thought experiment: the Trolly is the consequence of your action/inaction. Is it realistic for the Trolly to need brakes? Yes. And it needs someone attentive at the controls, and there needs to be enough time.
It's a thought experiment, though. It's the Trolly Problem. The point isn't to solve it, the point is introspection.
But.
If this was real I'd try to jam the track by letting one half of the train wheels go over the switching device and then switch the tracks for the other half of the train wheels. I'd hope it would derail the train/jump the tracks and make it come to a stop quickly. But I have no knowledge if this would work but it's the first thing to come to mind to try and save both.
That's my take on it.