mapper should be informed about this as well.

I knew I was forgetting someone . . . probably several someones. I don't know him very well, if you'd like to pass the word . . . .

heh Its a pity this has even come up, I'll have to head over and check it out.

If he does cancel us all out, Then I'll be leaving FA as well. What's the point of not being able to display something you've worked hard to create?

& Why all the sudden *you can't post this stuff here anymore* rules?

Zytx

I've read the TOS by Dragoneer, Granted he is Bias to Poser and Daz But the ruling on whether to allow or ban what we do is still up in the air.

I propose making a website where folks like us can post our own art work personally, if it comes to that. I have a couple of friends that might be able to help with that.

I 2nd that proposal.

Zytx

Makes three of us...if not more.....

Four.

*nods* As Mapper said, it's still in discussion, he's just CONSIDERING it.

I gotta say.. this is not sl screenshots where someone else made your AV and your showing off and spamming with umpteen fucking pictures of your AV. dude.. no one cares.. 'kay? it's an AV.. If I want to see you in SL I'll FIND you and TALK to you.. sheesh

The people who use these programs are talented , work hard and deserve respect.. they just don't go into a program and put people in poses.. they have to WORK at that. Plus the backgrounds, shading , lighting.. all that.. is work.. Trust me, I know.

Anyway, let the people who work in that medium STAY get rid of the f-ing SL people and the people posting pics of themselves.. yes your sexy.. big deal.. I am not impressed.

Johnny

I really don't care about posting SL screenshots - if I want friends to see it then I'll send them one. I only do SL because everyone else is in it.

I don't know enough about Poser or Daz to comment. I think I tried Poser once, but I found it difficult to use because of its simplicity (believe it or not)! I decided it wasn't powerful enough for my requirements, and moved on, end of story.

However, I bet there's more work put into one of these renders than in the mountain of ugly little scribbles that are posted to the site. Some sketches are downright sloppy, and look like they've taken no more than 10 to 15 minutes to create.

Your argument on the forum is well thought out, justified and quite objective.

Thank you, I appreciate that. :)

I'm going to be blunt with this question for emphasis. (Not being flamey or anything.)


What the 'hell' is Poser and Daz?

Poser and DAZ http://www.daz3d.com (not sure of Poser's website) are programs that allow the user to create 3D images and animations to there own specifications, without having to create an entire mesh (character) from scratch if they do not want to. However if you learn them good enough you can create completely original looks, images, and such using it.

Thanks for the info. That's pretty interesting and I see how the issue can be pressed by what Dragoneer put up.

I just hope they decide to keep DAZ and Poser artwork. If it gets removed, then I have to leave FA, as well as alot of other good artists.

I wasn't aware so many artists use them.

Both are programs that allow people to use 3D models for rendering.

http://www.e-frontier.com/article/a.....1/281?sbss=281 <-- Poser

http://www.daz3d.com/ <-- DAZ

Both programs and companies offer free-license content for free and for purchase, as well as allowing people to import models that they or others have made. Both programs also allow nearly unlimited customization of models.

The way I see it, having used DAZ myself (and failed miserably, IMHO): it's like a still life. You take objects, or make objects yourself, or customize pre-made objects, and arrange them against a background in an artistic form. With a still life, the amount of imput from the artist will vary by artist: some people will grow the flowers, sculpt and paint the vase, build the table, and sew the curtains in the nearby window, while others will buy them. Some then will paint the finished still life, others will photograph it then. DAZ and Poser are very similar. Some people customize the renders a LOT and a massive amount of the content is exclusively their own in that respect. Some not so much. A few not at all, but I think they get bored quick. XD

That's very interesting. Seems like is has more depth than 'south park'.

*nods* It's more akin to something like ArtRage ( http://www.ambientdesign.com/artrage.html) ; it's not quite Photoshop for power, and it's used heavily by people who want to be able to create easily, but it's a lot more than just a coloring book.

I use that, actually.

Just to mention... what about the WAY kickin' open source 3d renderlicious program... Blender.

Linky link -http://www.blender.org/

It's said to have a high learning curve... and I myself once ran it (or tried to) for a while before giving up on it. But, I can tell, for those who know what they're doing when working in the 3d CGI art realm (and I, as of yet, do not) Blender can be a pretty powerful 3d art program to run.

What can I say? I LOOOOVE and HEAVILY support what my mate likes to call "open sores" software. lol

As for the New World Order... erm *coughs* erm... I mean new cyber legislature out here involving uploaded content, although I'll admit I've certainly not readi t backwards and forwards repeatedly over and over...

I'm pretty sure I nothing I've uploaded violates the new terms. There's new rules on photomanips (which I do, but the pictures are my own, not internet stock footage.

Although, I;m no angel... and, as such, I'll admit... off of FA, I've done manips on internet stock footage.

But, here's 2 important words that most need to be remember in cyberland... those 2 words are "Public domain". In other words... some material on the net is pictures others felt the need to copyright...
other stuff is more of the fair use/open source photo persuasion.

(Just like my works is fair use, open source art/animation). And, I think when one looks at the bigger picture, you may see that besides for the rules on FA, DA, SA, AA, or wherever...

the fact that people just can NOT for the life of them offer up any works without first having copyright protection has probably been what's pushed Dragoneer (AKA Preyfar/Fender) into even having contemplated doing this sort of thing.

What's more, unless I'm mistaken, I don't think the new rules are any tougher than DevArt's rules on this same sort of thing. (For what It's worth).

And, trust me... I NEVER thought I'd see the day I stood up for either DevArt, (if that's what you can call what I just did), but, (and I never thought an anti-establishment sort like me would say this either) butt, maybe some rules actually DO have at least some purpose or another.

I think that too much, the only thing too many people here on FA worry about is how any and all rules go against their wishes. I mean, look... I DO honestly feel the top FA admins should listen to the people... but, don't we at least owe them the same courtesy?

When one feels it's sole for others to listen to him/her... that's when one stops being a person a starts becoming dictator-like. And, It's NOT just site admins on the net who are guilty of such a practice as that.

As a hardcore interjective thinker and sometimes introspective sort, I try to be a big picture kind of guy. I don't want to always only look at the bad side without trying to find a silver lining to ever dark cloud.

But, I don't know... this all just my opinion on these things... that's all, nothing more. Those who have an opposing opinion have a right to have an opposing opinion if they should see it different on this stuff for any reason.

Hey! Someone remembered Blender! *grins*

"It's said to have a high learning curve." Said? *ROTFL* But it is awsome when you figure it out.

For folks to know Blender did the SFX in the movie "Titanic' :)

What really blew my mind the most is when I learned that Blender was used to make an "open source movie" (which I think was mentioned on Blender's own web site)... A CGI animated flick called "Elephant's dreams"

Never seen anything of that movie, and didn't previously even hear of it before. And, oh yeah... as far as "said" that was according to... erm, I think it was the Wiki article about it.

In other words, I sometimes quote stuff off of other places online. Sorry I forgot to give credit as to which site "said" that like that last time.

And, I didn't know Blender was used for even Titanic! Shweeet! It always does this rabbit's heart good anytime I see open source software used for major things like that.

(Hey, what can I say? I'm just that big on open source software like that). ^.^

I think of 'art' as a person being able to express a thought or idea in visual manner. How they get there is not as important as the final result. Is Poser an 'art tool'? Some would argue that PhotoShop is not a real art tool since it is not a real physical media. So where does one draw the line as to what is an acceptable form of art creation?

I hate doing backgrounds so I use Poser to render many of my environments. Does that mean my art will no longer be allowed here? I also like animating but don't have the modeling skills to build my own models. Isn't animation a form of art?

I think a simpler solution would be for FA to create and enforce a category specifically geared to rendered art. That way people can filter it.

It'd be nice if the music category was expanded to, I know people say WTF as music gotta do with furry art site, but artists need to be given mood music xD Right? *Sniggers and puts on some pornish type music*

Foxamoore composes furry theme songs for people's characters:
http://www.furaffinity.net/user/foxamoore/

I know of him :)

I was referring to visual art specifically but you are correct that there are many other forms of art such as writing and music and performance that tend to get overlooked

As I started reading this whole thing, I too started to wonder about Photoshop art. Hell, once you scan the picture, it no longer qualifies as 'art' because you can make any changes you want digitally, and we all know how EASY that is. Just *click**click* done!

Why is this even an issue? The medium shouldn't matter so long as the content is on topic for this site (anthropomorphic things) and the uploader either created the image or has permission to post it.

Don't forget Tetsuo's boxing art and animation:
http://www.furaffinity.net/user/tetsuo/

and Dragonfood:
http://www.furaffinity.net/user/dragonfood

I enjoy both these artists's art.

*nods* I know that there's a lot of people who I forgot about or just simply don't know are out there. If it was disallowed it would have some major implications for a lot of artists here.

This whole thing sounds to me like people putting too much thought into finding a new way to exert their control over FA. It seems like a non-issue to me, personally, and to compare what I do in Poser to a little "character creation" app is somewhat insulting to me. I put as much or more time and effort into what I do as a traditional artist does; so what if I use, combine, and modify meshes and textures that are publicly available? And don't get me started on the "is it art" question...

I enjoy your art very much and would be very disapointed if it was banned from FA. It's easy to see there is a lot of effort that goes into your work.

Whether or not it's banned, I'm already upset that it's even an issue. Doing what I do isn't a matter of punching 4 buttons and... hey, presto! Art! That seems to be what this debate is about, and frankly I'm more than a little insulted by it.

That seems to be the general feeling of it.

I'm insulted too. Tho I was from the time the good lion mentioned some of his statements to me in another journal.

This is just like a kick in the teeth saying, "I know better then you because I'm certified. So get out."

I think this should be judged one by one.. as some people like mapper and tetsuo do have original stuff and put really detailed pieces...

while others just put a random downloaded model fucking or masturbating against a black background ( everything pre maded )

I agree that it would have to be on a case by case basis in some aspects . . . is the person posting as art or is the artist posting more like the SL screenshots were often being posted?

It's next to impossible to not put ANY originality into a DAZ pic because the programs just don't work that way; but yes, I do know what you're saying, I remember the fellow who posted 200 pictures of a girl having sex with an alligator in one night using nothing but stock poses and models with limbs poking through the environment and such. Personally I think it is pretty obvious who is putting in an effort and who is not . . . but also remember that's also pretty obvious in drawings, yet there's no limitations on those. ;)

If that is brought up then I'll have to pull my card generator pics, even though the program I use is no longer found on the net or anywhere.

I'm with you; my Yugioh cards will have to be taken down, if this rule is put into place. I guess it doesn't matter if the ART is original, it was created on a PROGRAM, and ANYTHING created on a PROGRAM is paramount to a character generator, right?

Why was this issue brought up, anyway? And why isn't Second Life screen caps not affected? I've played SL, and I can tell you it's even MORE of a "character generator" as Dragoneer believes Poser and DAZ to be; I'll bet you 10 to 1 that most of the people who posted them bought most if not all of their character's pieces from other people on SL, and just slapped them together, which is pretty much the definition of a "character generator", isn't it?

wait if 'programs' are bad then the whole of FA submitted work would have to be taken down since people use MS Paint, Photoshop, oC, and other programs to create media, but yeah I think Second Life, and game screenshots should not be allowed.

.....

This is getting out of hand....

DAZ/Poser better not be banned.....

Or ALOT of artists will be VERY unhappy.

Besides, I too use Poser/DAZ.....

I guess photography isn't art. *shrug*

Now I'm wonderfully cheesed off. I mentioned this in one of my audio journals about choosing what to look at and what not to. This is discrimination to the highest degree. Period.

I CAN'T draw anymore. I lost that skill when my hand was mangled. DAZ/poser allows me the freedom to create still, to do what I enjoy doing. And lord knows how hard it is to make a texture, edit a char, pose it, light it, render it.

Ugh, this just plain upsets me.

Sad to think people would go looking for such stretches in order to prevent the posting of someone's original work, just because it had some time-saving frames used. Creativity is expressed in many ways, and a lot of people who can't create on paper seem able to with the help of computer software, and we're all the richer and better off for them getting that opportunity.

Wow, this could screw over a lot of people. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if they use their own textures and models and stuff, isn't still their creation? I'm not seeing Dragoneer's logic here.

dammit! it figures something like this would happen right as im about to start college for just this sort of thing >_>

great , so now I'm to be toast here for using SL and Poser?tanj

Read through the forum posting, and though I stay out of the forums (I get a TON less drama overall that way), I do have one point to make:

I don't fully see what having a degree has to do with being able to create or judge what can be considered art.

I have no degree... heck, no schooling in art. I just pick up things rather quickly from here and there, and spent years of time teaching myself how to draw, color, and tweak my doodles... re-learning step when I come across a better or newer way to do things.

I have to imagine that quite a few 3d artists learned their skills in a similar manner, mebbe from skin-editing video game characters, animation tutorials and tool downloads... I really don't know; it's not an area I've ever explored.

I do know that I'd be pretty upset if suddenly my pieces were considered being removed just because I haven't gone to school to learn the professional ways of doing things, and I'd be outright insulted if I was further told that they weren't really considered art. They may just be toons, but I've put a lot of effort into them over the years!

The goal of trimming off some of the spam submissions is one thing, but I don't see blanketly deciding that all rendered 3d artwork isn't really artistic as being a reasonable approach.

Hmmm, Poser and DAZ users should be allowed to post what they like. I'm not entirely sure of the mechanics of the program, but I see a lot of characters made that are actual furries. I mean it isn't like some corporate lacky is making furry smut for people to post here on FA right?

Great, so the one picture I uploaded to FA will now be in violation with the TOS?

Care to explain me how that picture isn't art? Because I sure can recall creating that picture not at all being like using the South Park Generator.

Aw. I didn't make the list.

I didn't know what program you used. ;)

Poser, with smatterings of 3ds max, and photoshop

Then please accept my appologies, I didn't mean to exclude anyone, even though I knew I would by accident as I mentioned up there. :)

No prob.

FurAffinity has long been a proponate of blazing new trails in regression. Eventually it's gonna end up like Hentai Foundry and a mod will have to approve anything before it's uploaded. But more to the point, I will admit, Poser/Daz stuff generally isn't to my taste... But niether is Traditional media such as Color Pencil, or Water Color. BUT I respect the amount of skill and time it takes to use the medium. I've used Daz myself, and it's a fairly difficult program to use. Especially to get anything of value out of it. Basically, I personaly can't support banning it.

Thanks tenski for sticking up for us. I have been missing from Fa for sometime, and I think this is out of order, i am shit at drawing but can do 3D quite well, or so i think anyway. Poser is an art. to some degree, BUT the main point it is, It is giving life to this site with the people using it. I wanted to give something back to the fandom. I could only do that with the help of these 3D programs. Not all of us are Gifted with amazing drawing skills. And some artists are to far up there own butts to think of that. If we are to be removed from here, fine. Ill go with Typhon, as we are not judged by what media we use with him.

I think I missed the boat on this one, but what was the reasoning behind the bans (or ideas of bans anyway)? I got to read some comments on the subject like "drawing people in to look at other works," so why take the artistic outlet away?

To some degree, I even think the SL stuff should be permitted, because people make their own stuff from scratch in that, and sell avatars. Kinda the same with the fursuit makers that post what they made here as another medium for their advertising.
The stuff with "hai guyz lookit mah avatar i went an got" should go though.


It would be the same as making a jacket yourself with cloth you bought, versus just going and buying one and posting a picture of you in it.




Also, just a thought I had. Would a photo of your kid qualify as a "collaborative work"?

Would a photo of your kid qualify as a "collaborative work"?

and if so, who would own the copyrights then?

How can they consider this, even if you use a program to do the art it still takes time and effert to complete a piece of work, theres as much seat and love in your works as in a traditional piece, I say "NO" to any kind of ban. Also I'am not an artiest yet I do like playing with these programs to the best of my abilities. Mack

This is one of my favorite galleries. Its bad enough that I have to submit to 3 galleries because of the types of art I do. Being a 3D artist, photographer, and general furry artist. I would be quite upset to learn I couldn't use Daz any longer. It's like telling a painter there is no more paint. I'm not extremely good with traditional art so I prefer 3D right now. It is like making a photograph from scratch.

I'd comment further in (agreement or disagreement) but frankly i'm poor and i can't really, contribute to the voting process at all.

As there is no technical, vote of if this: "Will be," or "Won't be," it will just be, one way or another.

So, i cannot comment further, i had a much more lighthearted amusing, playfully stupid and inane, commentary, in mind... but, i read the stupid comments, left by others and changed my mind.

~Cheers.

I myself cannot tell what program a person has used for 3D art. Actually I can't tell what program a person has used to color 2D art. OC? Painter? Adobe? Corell? Bryce? Poser? Cinema? Soft?,,,,,.

Do I have a point. No, not really. Just that it is a line that has not been drawn yet on what is art when it comes to "Manufactuing Digital Images".

At the end of it, a moderator can pull down anything they want to. Sites like this are free and not a democracy.

Hmmm, maybe it will show up in Court some day.

Yeeh Haa.

P.S. It's election season in US. Time to photo morph your favorite politician fucking a chicken!

What might be really interesting is for one of the better 3D artists to take one set pose with Poser or Daz - that is to say, one or perhaps two relatively detailed characters in a fairly complex pose - and, while changing nothing about the position of the pose or the characters, go totally postal with their rendering skills! Show that pose with different lighting, different backgrounds, different shading, different skins, change fur texture, eye color, etc. Make an example that truly demonstrates exactly how much work a 3D artist has to do to create a good picture.

I could be very wrong here, but I think a measure of the problem with blanket condemnations of art that looks like the computer did it instead of by more "traditional" means is that if a particular person hasn't used such programs, their output does look somewhat the same. A good 3D artist can bring images into existence that can't be done by anyone except an good artist. Perhaps if someone clearly demonstrates (by example) the difference between what a generator does and what an artist creates, it might dispel a few preconceptions.

Just my 2¢

thatll suck if that goes thru =(

i know i put a lot of work into mine, and so do others.

condemning digital art per se is just wrong. i tried three or four times to insert a traditionally drawn character into a photograph, and it took me half a day just do integrate it halfway. as far as i can tell creating a piece of art with advanced programs, even just with photoshop, takes as much effort and time as doing it traditional, be it pencils, colour pencils, water colour, markers, acrylics, or whatever.

i maybe could follow the arguments if it were just for generated pics, or screenshots from some games, but this? not the right way.

i would comment in the forum, but my guess is after ten million postings i just might not get heard at all. not that it counted, though; nobody listens to me anyway. so, there.

Man, that sux, it IS art, how come the dun think that?

Guess ill just go post to yiffstar or something...in the event that he desides to ban the artwork, there are plenty of other alternatives besides FA,