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Barbaricum
15 years ago
[Repeated from a post on RPG Geek, as I've been meaning to explore the concept here.]
What further accounts we have are fabulous: as that the Hellusians and Oxiones have the countenances and aspect of men, with the bodies and limbs of savage beasts. This, as a thing about which I have no certain information, I shall leave untouched.
—Tacitus, Germania
One of the beliefs in the ancient world was that civilization made the man. Those peoples removed from civilization were not only barbarians, but as they became further removed from the civilized world, they became more savage and alien and bestial, until just past the limits of the known world, the men took on the appearance of beasts.
An idea I've been kicking around since last winter is a fantasy world where 'civilization makes the man' is true—at least in some respect. It's the basis of what I hope to be an upcoming campaign world, and this post is as much to start forcing me into doing something about it as anything else.
The general idea for the setting is a fantasy world taking a lot of cues from Earth around the 6th Century. That is, I want to borrow a lot from history without feeling the need to do a lot of research to get it right. :) Two of the first things I need to do is start coming up with new names for all the historical analogs so they can start taking on their own character, and working out the geography. The part I'm really working with in my head is the equivalent to Western Europe.
No one, not even the scholars of the Empire, know where people come from. 'People' come in all sorts of forms. But it is known that the more 'civilized' a people are, the more they look the same. Moreover, a people that becomes more settled, more advanced, in technology, philosophy, and any of a number of other things, in time begin to look more... 'human', where as less advanced peoples continue to resemble the animals from whence they presumably sprang [which is to say, they're furries].
The Empire was founded by a people who had only recently become 'human' themselves, and early on adopted a citizenship requirements that looked for these traits. As the Empire spread, and the system became entrenched, various peoples were accorded rights within the Empire based on where on a scale of 'human' and 'animal' traits they fall.
The glory days of the Empire are long past, and today many lands are no longer administered directly by the Empire, though various invading tribes maintain the forms of the Empire, even though none of them would have the ius homii [human/ruling rights] under the Empire's rule.
Peoples such as the [Romans] are fully human (though that's only been true for about 800 years), while long-term subjects of the Empire such as the [Gauls] more resemble an anime-style furry—animal ears and tail and little else. Peoples from outside the barbaricum are more traditional furries, with all sorts of mixes with digitigrade legs and long muzzles (which tend to be the first to go), and then all sorts of shadings in between for more transitional peoples. [It is possible that various centaur-like creatures also exist, but I haven't made up my mind on that.]
What further accounts we have are fabulous: as that the Hellusians and Oxiones have the countenances and aspect of men, with the bodies and limbs of savage beasts. This, as a thing about which I have no certain information, I shall leave untouched.
—Tacitus, Germania
One of the beliefs in the ancient world was that civilization made the man. Those peoples removed from civilization were not only barbarians, but as they became further removed from the civilized world, they became more savage and alien and bestial, until just past the limits of the known world, the men took on the appearance of beasts.
An idea I've been kicking around since last winter is a fantasy world where 'civilization makes the man' is true—at least in some respect. It's the basis of what I hope to be an upcoming campaign world, and this post is as much to start forcing me into doing something about it as anything else.
The general idea for the setting is a fantasy world taking a lot of cues from Earth around the 6th Century. That is, I want to borrow a lot from history without feeling the need to do a lot of research to get it right. :) Two of the first things I need to do is start coming up with new names for all the historical analogs so they can start taking on their own character, and working out the geography. The part I'm really working with in my head is the equivalent to Western Europe.
No one, not even the scholars of the Empire, know where people come from. 'People' come in all sorts of forms. But it is known that the more 'civilized' a people are, the more they look the same. Moreover, a people that becomes more settled, more advanced, in technology, philosophy, and any of a number of other things, in time begin to look more... 'human', where as less advanced peoples continue to resemble the animals from whence they presumably sprang [which is to say, they're furries].
The Empire was founded by a people who had only recently become 'human' themselves, and early on adopted a citizenship requirements that looked for these traits. As the Empire spread, and the system became entrenched, various peoples were accorded rights within the Empire based on where on a scale of 'human' and 'animal' traits they fall.
The glory days of the Empire are long past, and today many lands are no longer administered directly by the Empire, though various invading tribes maintain the forms of the Empire, even though none of them would have the ius homii [human/ruling rights] under the Empire's rule.
Peoples such as the [Romans] are fully human (though that's only been true for about 800 years), while long-term subjects of the Empire such as the [Gauls] more resemble an anime-style furry—animal ears and tail and little else. Peoples from outside the barbaricum are more traditional furries, with all sorts of mixes with digitigrade legs and long muzzles (which tend to be the first to go), and then all sorts of shadings in between for more transitional peoples. [It is possible that various centaur-like creatures also exist, but I haven't made up my mind on that.]
It also could be used to describe and explain cultures and pantheons like the Egyptian deities. That does raise another question, were you imagining magic in this world or gods like those in Classical times?
Yes. There's very good records of the [Gauls] proceeding from heavily on the furry side to nearly human during the empire. Pre-empire, there are records of the same process for the [Romans] and [Italian tribes] going through the process. (In fact, the Empire's citizenship requirements emerged during their version of the Social War, which on Earth was a fight over Latin Rights, among other things.)
Or have they observed a nation or tribe slide back into its original animal form after a collapse of their culture?
That has not been observed. However, with the partial breakup of the Empire, there is concern that they are about to see it happen.
Also have the Gauls become "human" enough that they can breed with citizens of the Empire. If they could would the culture permit it, or would it viewing this as "watering down" of the human stock?
All 'people' can interbreed with each other. One [Greek] scholar's idea was that humans are the result of interbreeding—what you are left with when all the incompatible traits of different peoples are scrubbed off. Another theory also supposes that 'people' and animals can interbreed (shades of the Minotaur and... several other Greek myths) and that is where new peoples come from.
Many cultures have been insular or 'protectionist' and have tried to prevent interbreeding between themselves and other peoples. However, the Empire, from very early on took a more expansive view. It has consistently tried to expand its views of the benefits of civilization, and extend the citizenship to new areas ('all the better to tax you with, my dear!'), and therefore generally encouraged cross-people relationships. Since there has been no known 'backsliding' of any people, it is considered quite safe.
It also could be used to describe and explain cultures and pantheons like the Egyptian deities. That does raise another question, were you imagining magic in this world or gods like those in Classical times?
It explains them quite well. :) It is likely the [Egyptian] pantheon looks much like the Earth version, and has been handed down since the [Egyptians] were in the later stages of becoming 'human'. (Though a full animal head on a full human body is not a known morphology in nature; the reasons for this disparity is a source for scholarly debate.)
This world does have magic. How powerful and how common is still under consideration, though I'm expecting it'll be pretty common. Gods, do exist, though not so much on the scale that we tend to think of even the classical gods. Mostly, they tend to really be very localized nature spirits, though some especially venerated ones would have a longer reach. Still about 100 miles would be about as much influence as the most powerful god could expect to manage. (I'm mostly thinking in terms Narnia's presentation of bits of Greek mythology, and probably some Shinto concepts.)
The big mystery is where the change comes from. But it does seem to affect populations as a whole. So Taoists would be unlikely to be physically any different from the rest of the population. And considering the roads, armies, bureaucracy, irrigation, metalworking, and general infrastructure, the [Chinese] (assuming meaningful equivalents stretch that far) are human. If there are some differences, it might provide clues as to what the actual cause of the changes are, clues that the Empire has had no access to.
Hmm. Actually, there's a perfectly good Greek philosophy that has a lot in common with Taoism - Cynicism. They believed that the best model for human behavior was the dog, which doesn't seek to own anything but it's sleeping place, remembers it's friends, eats what it needs to, and mates as it wants to. Diogenes of Sinope was always a favorite of mine.
I'll have to remember to check Diogenes to figure out how he fits within the intensely Roman worldview of the setting.
Would the proto-humans be an original species, or would they have developed from existing ones? If the latter, would a "people" (ethnic group) all originate from the same species? One perhaps different from the origin of a different group? (One furry setting idea I had was to use species or genus to identify nationality -- British become canines, French become felines, Germans become porcine, Orientals various lizards, and Native Americans various American species. Using multiple species raises the questions about interbreeding. And you have a ready source for the various totems and symbolic animals.)
Are the changes generational or could a "wild man" transform by being civilized? A civilized man rendered beast by brutal conditions? Inheriting acquired traits (a generally debunked theory in our world) would seem to be required. (I'd assume there would be some in-generation transformation, at least.)
If magic and spirits (aka gods) exist, how much have they had to do with the coming into being of people? (I'd almost think that most early people were a result of spirits interacting with animals. That doesn't exclude any people/animal mixes, and might even support the idea as people would have at least some spirit within.)
The smaller groups do. Most late antiquity tribal names we're used to (like the Franks) are actually agglomerations of a variety of peoples, with a fair amount of fluidity to them. So not all [Gauls] are wolves. But some are.
Using multiple species raises the questions about interbreeding.
As I mentioned to Baron, everything can interbreed. Well, everything intelligent and non-divine can. There's a lot of arguments about anything outside that.
And you have a ready source for the various totems and symbolic animals.
Yes. Yes I do!
Are the changes generational or could a "wild man" transform by being civilized?
It's all generational. If you're born as a furry, being raised in the capitol of the Empire will not change you. How much it changes your children is a subject of scholarly debate, but it is known that it will have an effect.
Inheriting acquired traits (a generally debunked theory in our world) would seem to be required.
Obviously, some form of that is going on here. Or maybe it's all lead poisoning. (Well, not that in particular, but something of the sort could be going on.)
I'd almost think that most early people were a result of spirits interacting with animals. That doesn't exclude any people/animal mixes, and might even support the idea as people would have at least some spirit within.
That is a popular theory within the Empire.
[And in case you're wondering, no, I have not made up my mind what the truth is. I'm going to avoid nailing it down for as long as possible, and let it try to grow out of the rest of what gets established.]