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What IS a fair price for an artist's work? (Long)
18 years ago
I have to ask this, because it varies so wildly in furry. What makes the price for a commission "too much"? I've heard numbers as low as $25 for full-color, and as astronomical as "no limits".
Personally, I try to be a professional with my commissions. My last patron himself said he was shocked that I actually asked for MORE information, especially information about his character beyond just physical characteristics and looks. To me, that is how I am supposed to do my job. If I don't get into a character, then I can't know that character well enough to create a work of art about them.
Being a professional also includes at least semi-professional pricing, however. I have to be realistic, and there are generally-accepted "norms" in the concept design world. I'm handling a set of character designs for a game proposal for a client right now; a grand total of 2 colors and 3-4 black-and-whites for $750 total. I gave my prices to the client ($250 color, $75 B&W), and he readily accepted without hesitation. This doesn't include the pre-vis designing and concepting the actual character; he's gotten 6 sheets for free, basically, of me working through the entire character concept to get an idea for how she should look.
In furry, I think there are a lot of people who would say 75 dollars for a black-and-white drawing is far and away too excessive, but is it? Looking at it from a purely utilitarian point of view of work-per-hour, $75 would be:
15 hours @ $5/hr
7.5 hours @ $10/hr
5 hours @ $15/hr
Professional concept artists can be paid $20 or more per hour, and that's for us low-level new artists. I hope for about $200 on a full-color commission, with a complete background. Considering about 40 hours on average for a commission from me (and no, I never figure in the time where I'm staring at the page), I'm working for 5 bucks an hour. To anyone that has looked at my auctions before, I usually start them at $65, with no reserve. That means that if there were only one bid, I'd practically be working for pennies.
This isn't to say I'm trying to make this out as some sort of living. I don't expect to, nor ever will. But I do feel that there is a need to acknowledge that there are artists who, while they may charge a lot, do everything they can to give you your money's worth.
In terms of my work, there's more that goes into a commission from me.
1) I communicate extensively with my clients. I'm big on email contact.
2) I ask for more information, story, background, character traits and personality - these are all of tantamount importance to me.
3) I do test sketches, and they give a green light before I put the first dab of color onto the page.
4) I will research things that I have little knowledge of (such as CWolfCW's commission, where I needed to research samurai clothing and symbols) in an effort to be accurate.
5) I redraw and fix drawings to a position that they are happy with. They're in an executive position, in essence, an Art Director for their commission.
6) I send in-progress shots of the artwork so that they can see the colors and image as it's taking shape, as well as know that I'm diligently working for them.
And even after all that, I will still go the extra mile to make sure that they are a satisfied patron, someone who feels they got their money's worth. To date, of my 5 commissions, every person has been delighted with not only the final product, but also my promptness, conduct, and work ethic. While hard to pin a number on, there is considerable effort put into things beyond just the final piece of art one gets, at least from me.
I think, on some level, I want to justify my charging $200-$250 for a full-color commission. I wish I could get more sometimes, because I honestly feel I put in more than that amount of work into a commission; but I have always let the market (read: fandom) decide how much my work is worth. You people are the reason I offer commissions at all, instead of just drawing for myself, and I want to make sure that the people who buy art from me feel like they are being treated fairly. At the same time, I want that respect and understanding reciprocated.
I've noticed the reasoning, "For that price, you could get 10 commissions from artists A-F, that's just a stupid price!" We aren't washing machines, or pairs of shoes, or laserjet printers. We are all different and unique in style, form, and approach. Even though you could get 10 from other artists for the same, can you be sure all ten of the others' work merits that same amount spread around?
In this post-modern era, people don't want to hear it, but in furry there are disparate skill levels between given artists; with non-abstract art it is far easier to quantify an artist's skill in a medium. This is not a carte blanche reason for an artist to be demeaning and belittling to others; to me, a greater-skilled artist should feel obligated to help those struggling to improve; and those people should listen to the artist. On the same subject, an artist whose skill is praised does not have free reign to charge an overtly excessive amount. This whole paragraph reflects a manner of respect to one another. Who knows how attainable that is, but I myself at least work towards this.
So, what is a fair price for a commission? Are all of us artists created equal and one should expect the same prices from all of us? Do our names matter; and should our name recognition alone be a reason to hate us? Do our attitudes, work ethic, and behavior matter in consideration of how "good" we are, or is it simply our artwork that matters and the artist is secondary? Should artists taking furry commissions relegate themselves to lower prices at the community's behest, or should they adhere to a figure they feel is proper, and/or let that same community decide where they stand?
Link this around if you feel it worth sharing. Talk, and reply; I want to know what you think.
Personally, I try to be a professional with my commissions. My last patron himself said he was shocked that I actually asked for MORE information, especially information about his character beyond just physical characteristics and looks. To me, that is how I am supposed to do my job. If I don't get into a character, then I can't know that character well enough to create a work of art about them.
Being a professional also includes at least semi-professional pricing, however. I have to be realistic, and there are generally-accepted "norms" in the concept design world. I'm handling a set of character designs for a game proposal for a client right now; a grand total of 2 colors and 3-4 black-and-whites for $750 total. I gave my prices to the client ($250 color, $75 B&W), and he readily accepted without hesitation. This doesn't include the pre-vis designing and concepting the actual character; he's gotten 6 sheets for free, basically, of me working through the entire character concept to get an idea for how she should look.
In furry, I think there are a lot of people who would say 75 dollars for a black-and-white drawing is far and away too excessive, but is it? Looking at it from a purely utilitarian point of view of work-per-hour, $75 would be:
15 hours @ $5/hr
7.5 hours @ $10/hr
5 hours @ $15/hr
Professional concept artists can be paid $20 or more per hour, and that's for us low-level new artists. I hope for about $200 on a full-color commission, with a complete background. Considering about 40 hours on average for a commission from me (and no, I never figure in the time where I'm staring at the page), I'm working for 5 bucks an hour. To anyone that has looked at my auctions before, I usually start them at $65, with no reserve. That means that if there were only one bid, I'd practically be working for pennies.
This isn't to say I'm trying to make this out as some sort of living. I don't expect to, nor ever will. But I do feel that there is a need to acknowledge that there are artists who, while they may charge a lot, do everything they can to give you your money's worth.
In terms of my work, there's more that goes into a commission from me.
1) I communicate extensively with my clients. I'm big on email contact.
2) I ask for more information, story, background, character traits and personality - these are all of tantamount importance to me.
3) I do test sketches, and they give a green light before I put the first dab of color onto the page.
4) I will research things that I have little knowledge of (such as CWolfCW's commission, where I needed to research samurai clothing and symbols) in an effort to be accurate.
5) I redraw and fix drawings to a position that they are happy with. They're in an executive position, in essence, an Art Director for their commission.
6) I send in-progress shots of the artwork so that they can see the colors and image as it's taking shape, as well as know that I'm diligently working for them.
And even after all that, I will still go the extra mile to make sure that they are a satisfied patron, someone who feels they got their money's worth. To date, of my 5 commissions, every person has been delighted with not only the final product, but also my promptness, conduct, and work ethic. While hard to pin a number on, there is considerable effort put into things beyond just the final piece of art one gets, at least from me.
I think, on some level, I want to justify my charging $200-$250 for a full-color commission. I wish I could get more sometimes, because I honestly feel I put in more than that amount of work into a commission; but I have always let the market (read: fandom) decide how much my work is worth. You people are the reason I offer commissions at all, instead of just drawing for myself, and I want to make sure that the people who buy art from me feel like they are being treated fairly. At the same time, I want that respect and understanding reciprocated.
I've noticed the reasoning, "For that price, you could get 10 commissions from artists A-F, that's just a stupid price!" We aren't washing machines, or pairs of shoes, or laserjet printers. We are all different and unique in style, form, and approach. Even though you could get 10 from other artists for the same, can you be sure all ten of the others' work merits that same amount spread around?
In this post-modern era, people don't want to hear it, but in furry there are disparate skill levels between given artists; with non-abstract art it is far easier to quantify an artist's skill in a medium. This is not a carte blanche reason for an artist to be demeaning and belittling to others; to me, a greater-skilled artist should feel obligated to help those struggling to improve; and those people should listen to the artist. On the same subject, an artist whose skill is praised does not have free reign to charge an overtly excessive amount. This whole paragraph reflects a manner of respect to one another. Who knows how attainable that is, but I myself at least work towards this.
So, what is a fair price for a commission? Are all of us artists created equal and one should expect the same prices from all of us? Do our names matter; and should our name recognition alone be a reason to hate us? Do our attitudes, work ethic, and behavior matter in consideration of how "good" we are, or is it simply our artwork that matters and the artist is secondary? Should artists taking furry commissions relegate themselves to lower prices at the community's behest, or should they adhere to a figure they feel is proper, and/or let that same community decide where they stand?
Link this around if you feel it worth sharing. Talk, and reply; I want to know what you think.
I say your chargeing the right amount.. for your B&W.. and seriously.. i don't think $200 for one of your color jobs is enough.. Can i afford it... no.. but who am i to complain.. WAAA that Rembrant it too much.. who does he think he is charging so much.. GAWD!!!
You know what your worth.. stick to what you know.
And as for the attitude and behavior of your questions, yes it does matter. I recently had commission Larathen, he was cold and straight to the point with his notes, but it was his commission that pushed me over. After giving him info that I thought was enough, he did the work and just posted it up without showing me the sketch first, when I calmly complain about how it wasn't what I wanted, but I'll take it, he threw a fit, removed it from his gallery, redid it, and made such a big commotion about it like a whiny spoiled two year old. Because of this, I'm never going to commission him again no matter how good his artwork is.
now you got me ranting.. YOUR GOOD.. I'D Pay if i could. You know theres this gun i really really want.. but it's 1200 dollars.. Should i complain to the company cause thier super fantastic gun is more expensive than that $50 gun.. on the basis that they both sling bullets..... NO i shut up, and if i really want it.. i save up for it till i can get it.
In my opinion, a fair price for a commission should start with how skilled the said artist is.
Although no artist is more important than the other, it is unreasonable to expect the same price from everyone if their skill is not of a magnitude to merit such a price. (In comparison to others.) Sadly, names do matter.
Certain people will always get more just because they are, "so and so" and happen to be popular. Which is pretty crappy, but that's all apart of the game. Look around here or on DeviantArt and you are sure to find people whose artistic talent/skill is not of the quality of others. Yet, they receive more commissions and receive more money because they are well known.
Attitude, work ethic, and behavior should matter but, in the end it's the artwork that does the talking. I think attitude, work ethic, and behavior are more of a plus to your artistic skill. Which, may cause a commissioner to seek artwork from you instead of someone else if they are trying to decide between the two.
Say artist A had the best attitude, work ethic, and behavior than any other artist and was moderately known. If artist A's artwork was not up to par to those in his field then he will probably not receive as many or get as much money for his commissions as others may.
I do not believe artists taking furry commissions should relegate themselves to lower prices.
However, you may not be able to receive the price you receive for say, anime commissions compared to furry commissions. Depends on the market.
In deciding a price, you should take into account how your artwork is compared to other artists in the same field. Come up with a figure for your pricing and then compare it to others. And from this information, decide a price. There is no way for someone to tell you how much your artwork is worth because, only the person who created the work can put a price on it.
I agree with a lot of what you say, but honestly....I wish it worked that way, but it doesn't. Fair prices = no sales. Either the artist works off their butt for a little bit of nothing......or they just don't sell art at all.
Popularity is the key...get popular somehow and that's where the money is. I haven't figured that part out yet though personally :/
Does the customer get the original full color piece?
If so. 250 is NOT alot to be charging! Your work looks like paint for chrissakes!
I usually send the original pencil drawing as well - I have art spilling out of everywhere constantly, so most of my work ends up in a trash bin. If I still like it when I find it, it gets filed away in a cabinet.
obviusly your level of skill is way splattering my ego :P
but yeah , people underprice themselves in the community..
I think lots of furry artists think that way. How to remedy it?
What the artist thinks their work is worth, regardless of what standard they use for determining that valuation, has no bearing on what the market will actually bear. In other words, you have the old saying "It's only worth as much as someone is willing to pay for it". It doesn't matter how you valuate the work...if little to no amount of the market is willing to pay your prices, regardless of the quality level, then you simply won't make the money you expect.
You're creating and delivering something that is, realistically, not an "essential". It is not a basic living necessity, and therefore you will never be able to dictate to your market "You need it, so you'll pay what we tell you". Nor will you be able to fully convince your market of the reasoning behind your valuation of what you're delivering, and swing them to your pricing structure based off that. It's simply too subjective a concept, the valuation of art.
So debate and discuss all you want about what people think it's all worth, and how to determine that worth, but...unless you get the majority of your fellow artists and potential customers to agree to the standards and pricing you lay out, it's all just wishful thinking.
Additionally, I have my own opinions on what I feel art is worth to me. Some of it is not worth the asking price and therefore I simply don't buy from some folks, where others I feel are asking fair amounts, or even sometimes too little. There, often I will pay them more then they're asking simply because I feel they deserve more. Yet, it's based on my personal opinions and determination of how much I wish to compensate someone for their time and effort.
Again, the valuation is subjective...and it's obvious we ALL have our specific opinions on that topic. Trying to standardize and structure off those opinions? Good luck...
I disagree here. A lot of people who think art should be cheap say this because they simply don't understand what goes into creating artwork; they see an artist sitting down at a table, scribbling on a piece of paper for 2 hours, and producing a masterpiece. Why on earth should they pay more than $30 for that? That's $15 an hour, right?
What they don't understand is things like production/supply costs & overhead (supplies, server space & advertizing, rent/utilities/insurance/etc if they're pro, etc), level of experience and skill (you'd pay a guy who's been in the buisness 20+ years more to fix your car than someone who's right out of college), and other little things an artist does to enhance quality, such as sending preview sketches of commissions for approval (I do this every time, but I've been told some artists never say a word to a commissioner from the day work is accepted to the moment they hand a finished piece over).
If you're going to sit there and say "My work is of x skill level and i'm better than joeFox and bobKitten so that means my work is worth $$$". But there are other ways to show value.
And no, not EVERYONE will "get it", because there are those few who demand everything be in their range of affordability no matter what (I.E. "You charge $30 for a color piece? OMG Rippoff!! Here's $20 it better be PERFECT!"), but most of the time it's just the misconception that "They can spit this out in 20 minutes"
And yes there is a matter of opinion involved, but at the end of the day thats more on the buyer - "Do I feel this person is worth my money?" - than the artist. If you don't think someone is worth their price, than don't commission them. It's that simple.
If you're going to sit there and say "My work is of x skill level and i'm better than joeFox and bobKitten so that means my work is worth $$$", than that's stupid. But there are other ways to show value.
Do you care how much effort goes into making your computer? Your car? Your TV? No...most people still want the most for the lowest price. And forget about "Oh, but those are goods" or "Oh, but those are big companies and...". It's ALL materialistic goods, and one sole artist or a factory full of people, A LOT of work still goes into it, and everyone deserves good compensation for their time. Yet...we still want it for less. It's standard human nature.
In the end, I personally think the artist should valuate their own work, and just charge what they want. If the prices are out of reach of most folks, then whatever...they can either lower them, or accept it and continue on happily. I don't like seeing any artists getting pressured about what they charge...either from other artists telling them to raise their prices, or buyers telling them to lower them. It's your own damn time and work...YOU decide what it's worth.
Yet, the buyer still makes the decision whether to buy or not. You can't convince them to spend more using idealistic reasoning, pleading, guilt-trips, or whatever. Unfortunately your market within a fandom is quite small so there's not a wide range of "spending ranges" for people, but...I think they average ranges are pretty easy to figure out, so...all you can do is tailor it around those...be it at the high end or low end.
And yeah it is idealistic to assume that everyone will see value in the work if you show them what goes into it. Some people will appreciate, some people will go "yeah, well, it's still too much." But it's up to the artist then to decide if they want to cater to the people who appreciate and thus reward their hard work, or the people who just want cheap pictures.
I think... honestly... most of the fandom, and I use the word "most" loosely because I don't have actual figures to go on... are probably comprised of teenagers or young adults who're struggling through college, struggling through life, and probably don't have the money to afford a picture of such magnificent caliber. Not only that, but nowadays, most peeps simply don't have a good understanding of the value of a dollar and good REAL quality work.
Price is more than likely judged based on quality of the work, not quality of the process. It stands to reason that most folks don't really care about the line between point A and point B... they just care about point B.
It's sad. The money asked for should equal the time spent working on it, as well as the quality of the experience should be considered tip money. It's common courtesy... but sadly... that aspect of life is starting to fade as well.
Another option to consider is what Ashryn does- charge by the hour. She's gotten a lot of flak for this, but her reasons for doing so were very sensible, and it makes her feel better about doing commissions, because she's being paid more than slave wages. This option isn't always practical, but it's an idea.
As for people pestering you about prices being too high, I fully suggest you ignore them. If they don't like their prices, there are HUNDREDS of other artists out there who will work for cheaper. People should commission artists because they like their style, and as such, they're paying for your unique way of rendering images. This is the case with artists like Dark Natasha, oCe, Kacey, etc... If you want an picture by a talented artist badly enough, the price isn't much of an issue.
I had someone stop by my table at Anthrocon, look at my badge examples and prices, and declare loudly, "That isn't worth THAT much!" I told them politely that if they disagreed with my prices that much, they didn't have to buy anything from me. They went away right after that. ;3 Besides, plenty of other people bought badges from me without complaining about what I charge for them.
Sorry for the novel of a comment, and good luck. :3
I'm definitely of the like-minded "if it's too much, don't come to me" method. I think it trims out the flakier people. :}
When I first started taking commissions (all of a year ago), I was charging $7 for conbadges and $25 for full-page color. I'd gotten enough commissions to keep me busy all weekend, but people kept telling me I needed to raise my prices. So I did, by a few dollars. The price has gone up a little at each convention, and I've gotten the same amount of business, if not more.
If it's "commercial" work, it may depend on your client: More artwork they order, and more publicity you get, you may be willing to go lower on your prices. "Oh, you did X? That was awesome.." Also, multiple sales at once are good for a "discount" too. However, if they are going to make money using your artwork (a game publication, a collection of artwork, a comic book, etc.), consider that as well. Talk to art directors and see what other artists are being paid for their work and price yourself where you think they'll pay for it. (based both on your skill and style, as well as their budgets.)
If it's for the fans.. well, price yourself where you want to be:
Can you price yourself high enough that you get the income you want and not work yourself into a tizzy? If you over-price yourself, you may not get enough commissions. If you under-price yourself, you may either work yourself crazy, or just not feel you're getting the "respect" you deserve.
Your work deffinately seems to be worth the $250 mark for the high-end stuff. The only reason I don't say higher is because it's mostly digital. If it was paint, I'd say much higher... especially if you sell prints too. ^.^
However, I've also seen some people take high-priced commissions and do cheap sketch/lineart stuff to keep fans happy, as well as make the good money on their bigger clients.
However, if you're happy keeping prices lower, that's your choice. Don't listen too much to people who cry becaue you've priced yourself out of their range. I wish I could get Keith Parkinson, or BROM to do an image for me... but I don't have the $12,000 for it. That's just life, and it's not fair. The same people who are upset that they can't get a 12x16 painting for under $100 are sometimes the same people who are upset that the artist has put their signature on the image too.
So I say... price yourself how you want to and if nobody buys, go lower or higher based on the market. If you want to "give away" pieces from time to time, so be it... but make it "special"... ^.^
Another thing I would suggest is go talk to artists at the next convention (either a fantasy convention, or furry where there are industry artists there with experience and skill-levels equal or higher than yours) and ask lots of questions where you can.
I often see artists that I like, and I want to commission them, only to be disappointed by what they charge for their art. I'm not sure if it's because I think they charge too much, or because I am just sad that I know I'll probably never be able to get a commission from that artists.
I think a lot of it is that second feeling, and I think that some of it stems from the fact that for people who aren't artists, how a lot of people in the fandom treat you has to do with what your character looks like, who drew it, and how many pictures of your character you have. If you look, most of the more popular furries who aren't artists all have their characters drawn by popular artists. I guess this way of thinking is dumb, or something, but...well, I don't know.
I've run out of things to say, mostly because I forgot what I was going to say after that, so this is the end of this comment..
That's the short of it.
If you go into the real world, with real people, it's quite easy to get a $20+ hourly rate for artwork, and the like, and often much more.
For commissions, (I'm a painter) it's more of the flat rate based on size, cost and multiplier.
ie: 32 x 20 painting == 52x
determine your material cost = frame cost * 2, supply cost * 2, plus $20/hr min, etc
then determine your multiplier: so, say you want $500 for it, your multiplier will be ~9.6.
so someone wants a 6' by 4' painting in the same calibr, thats 120 x 9.6 = ~$1150.
And every time you sell something or another, raise the multiplier up a bit.
Figure out your multipliers for different media, based on size and how much time you spent, and then you have a quick means of ballparking flat-rate commissions in a fair manner so that you don't get screwed.
Most furry artists are getting raped. It's sad.
To me, it's less about price or the quality of the artist more than what would I render. And even then I'm more likely to speak to a talented friend than I am to directly seek out the talents of a qualified [not neccessarily certified] artist. In that way I'm doing one more person a service than another, among those within my own sphere of influence/friendship. Especially when I know plenty of them could use the money more than me.
I can't say that an artist's work isn't worth the amount that they do. Especially when yours is some of the most amazing I've seen from level of detail and color to the fact that you actually think about this so strongly.
The biggest problem, however, is that I simply don't appreciate a commission well enough. Badges are good for conventions, but I don't attend many and often too many simply become burdensome as we can't all walk around with coats and lockers full of such things. The art itself is useful to point out to someone and say, "that's my character" But most of the stock stuff I see little use for as my interest in furry is no more or less consuming than a nice TV show/anime/manga/book. [Then again, I'm often a rather utilitarian person though indulgence of sensation appeases me.]
Aside from that, finances are never an easy thing, and I often find myself keeping away what I might for rainy days. Being part of this fandom, and life in general, has shown how severe a blow losing one's car / having to move / getting injured for a prolonged time to stop work, can do to a person's financing as well as long term influence. So to speak, there isn't just the primary finances of the artist in my concern, but mine as well.
*Shrugs* Honestly I don't see how, even at low low prices, people can continue to afford to buy the amount of artowrk that they do. Of course, at times like taht I refer to demeaning expectancies that they simply have no lives or just live with their parents and do nothing more all day besides play on the computer and work. Terrible, honestly, but it eases my own jealousies.