Drama Rant
14 years ago
General
Kyoo no tema wa kore desu....
You should probably just skip this journal altogether.
Surprise! There's been a couple months of drama in our local furry group.
I'm skipping over the incidents that lead to the current state of affairs. Quite frankly, there were many failings on the part of everyone involved. There is no one bad guy in this.
Here's the dumbed-down version, using aliases (which I would prefer we use in this journal):
- 'Garth,' our former organizer, rage-quit over people not getting along with his buddy 'Bob,' & named 'Jimmy' his successor
- Months later, after a major blow-up, Jimmy banned Bob from the group
I am leaving out a crapton of stuff here. Remember--many failings, no one bad guy.
This isn't about the blow-up.
This is about how certain parties reacted & behaved afterwards.
Garth announced the blow-up across several online groups, including this one. Jimmy made one post --one-- in response to provide his side of the story. Since then he has kept himself out of the clusterfuck of emails and posts. For months Jimmy has said he doesn't want to hear about what the others are saying about him, he doesn't want anything forwarded or related to him, he doesn't want to waste another moment talking or thinking about the whole mess. Jimmy has abdicated being the organizer of the local furry group. He just wants to hang out with friends & focus on the positive.
Meanwhile, Garth, Bob, & a couple of their pals have been announcing that Jimmy is a pedophile.
Jimmy was dating 'Leon,' who is 17 years old, before this incident. Jimmy broke it off as a direct response to threats to notify the police--not out of concern for himself, but how being publicly outed would affect Leon (Leon is still in the closet, his family are strict fundamentalists). Garth & Bob's side have not only been telling people that Jimmy is a pedophile for dating Leon, but also that failure to report a known felony makes you an accessory to a crime (which is true--except that nobody can prove that Jimmy & Leon were doing anything more than holding hands & cuddling).
I do not want any side-debate in this journal over what constitutes as pedophilia, the legality of dating a 17-year-old, homosexuality, age of consent, etc. That's not the point.
HERE is the point: Jimmy & Leon started dating several weeks before the blow-out. This was known by Bob & Garth, et al, beforehand -- and they didn't start talking about pedophilia until Bob got kicked out.
FURTHERMORE, another local furry couple with a similar age difference have been dating for three and a half years; the youngest is now 19. Go on, do the math. Yet over the years there has been no hue & cry over pedophilia or being accessory to a crime for not reporting it.
AND HERE'S THE TOPPER: Garth himself has been openly cuddling a 16-year-old (who's a sweet gal & doesn't deserve to be drawn into this), and oddly enough none of his friends who are so concerned about pedophilia seem to mind.
Jimmy has stayed out of the drama as much as possible. He's trying to move on. And 5 days ago, one of Garth & Bob's faction called Jimmy by name & stated he was a pedophile in someone else's journal here on FA.
In case this isn't clear enough for you: these people are willing to destroy not one but two people's lives, because of being banned from a local furry group.
So now I try not to hang out with those people, because they say they are completely justified in what they're doing. But along with being very disappointed & angry at the actions of a scant handful of people, I also miss them. There is a big difference between calling someone's decisions or behavior bad or wrong, and saying someone IS bad or wrong. I don't think they get that. I don't know if they even want to acknowledge that such a difference exists. They seem to subscribe to the "If you're not 100% for me, then you're 100% against me" mindset. And that's a disappointment to me, too.
But is it too much to ask that they just leave Jimmy the hell alone? They're so hell-bent on proving how WRONG Jimmy is & how RIGHT they are that they've sacrificed a few good friendships (and IMHO, some sense) along the way.
Surprise! There's been a couple months of drama in our local furry group.
I'm skipping over the incidents that lead to the current state of affairs. Quite frankly, there were many failings on the part of everyone involved. There is no one bad guy in this.
Here's the dumbed-down version, using aliases (which I would prefer we use in this journal):
- 'Garth,' our former organizer, rage-quit over people not getting along with his buddy 'Bob,' & named 'Jimmy' his successor
- Months later, after a major blow-up, Jimmy banned Bob from the group
I am leaving out a crapton of stuff here. Remember--many failings, no one bad guy.
This isn't about the blow-up.
This is about how certain parties reacted & behaved afterwards.
Garth announced the blow-up across several online groups, including this one. Jimmy made one post --one-- in response to provide his side of the story. Since then he has kept himself out of the clusterfuck of emails and posts. For months Jimmy has said he doesn't want to hear about what the others are saying about him, he doesn't want anything forwarded or related to him, he doesn't want to waste another moment talking or thinking about the whole mess. Jimmy has abdicated being the organizer of the local furry group. He just wants to hang out with friends & focus on the positive.
Meanwhile, Garth, Bob, & a couple of their pals have been announcing that Jimmy is a pedophile.
Jimmy was dating 'Leon,' who is 17 years old, before this incident. Jimmy broke it off as a direct response to threats to notify the police--not out of concern for himself, but how being publicly outed would affect Leon (Leon is still in the closet, his family are strict fundamentalists). Garth & Bob's side have not only been telling people that Jimmy is a pedophile for dating Leon, but also that failure to report a known felony makes you an accessory to a crime (which is true--except that nobody can prove that Jimmy & Leon were doing anything more than holding hands & cuddling).
I do not want any side-debate in this journal over what constitutes as pedophilia, the legality of dating a 17-year-old, homosexuality, age of consent, etc. That's not the point.
HERE is the point: Jimmy & Leon started dating several weeks before the blow-out. This was known by Bob & Garth, et al, beforehand -- and they didn't start talking about pedophilia until Bob got kicked out.
FURTHERMORE, another local furry couple with a similar age difference have been dating for three and a half years; the youngest is now 19. Go on, do the math. Yet over the years there has been no hue & cry over pedophilia or being accessory to a crime for not reporting it.
AND HERE'S THE TOPPER: Garth himself has been openly cuddling a 16-year-old (who's a sweet gal & doesn't deserve to be drawn into this), and oddly enough none of his friends who are so concerned about pedophilia seem to mind.
Jimmy has stayed out of the drama as much as possible. He's trying to move on. And 5 days ago, one of Garth & Bob's faction called Jimmy by name & stated he was a pedophile in someone else's journal here on FA.
In case this isn't clear enough for you: these people are willing to destroy not one but two people's lives, because of being banned from a local furry group.
So now I try not to hang out with those people, because they say they are completely justified in what they're doing. But along with being very disappointed & angry at the actions of a scant handful of people, I also miss them. There is a big difference between calling someone's decisions or behavior bad or wrong, and saying someone IS bad or wrong. I don't think they get that. I don't know if they even want to acknowledge that such a difference exists. They seem to subscribe to the "If you're not 100% for me, then you're 100% against me" mindset. And that's a disappointment to me, too.
But is it too much to ask that they just leave Jimmy the hell alone? They're so hell-bent on proving how WRONG Jimmy is & how RIGHT they are that they've sacrificed a few good friendships (and IMHO, some sense) along the way.
FA+

No sweat about the pet peeve.
Under the new regime, only Bob is perma-banned.
Right after being banned, Bob told me he was considering reporting Jimmy, & I told him if he did so it would be a douchebag move. :/
So now there's a handful of people who I either just don't want to talk to, or want to explode at if I see them--not because of the events that lead to this big rift, but because of the smear campaign. I can be civil, but it's an effort. It's best that I just not go if there's a chance one of that handful will show (and it's really irksome having to ask, "Who's going?" before I head off to a furmeet--I used to just be able to fucking GO, y'know?).
They can accuse me of being "On Jimmy's side," But really is isn't about siding with someone so much as taking exception to certain party's actions, and accepting that they contributed to the drama.
I was able to talk to/chastise Jimmy & Leon about where I think they messed up or mishandled things. We're square with each other. We didn't 100% agree on all parts, but we heard each other out & forgive our differences. The friendship is more important than the difference of opinion.
I couldn't get through to the Bob-Garth group, back when I was still talking to them. They feel justified in their actions & think they share no culpability in the events that lead to Bob's banning.
I don't expect anyone to say, "Oh gosh Kwan, you're such a sage & wise person, I see the error of my ways & shall make amends!" But it would have been nice for them to maybe admit that they made some wrong decisions & some of their actions were thoughtless, if not stupid.
My old roommate, "John", was right about Garth and Bob. I smell sit-com! I never though it would get this bad.
Also, you are one of the people I still have not met, and would like to at some point :)
I would love to meet you, hopefully we can do so at the next Furizona event!
Additionally it wasn't bob who wanted to report Jimmy, it was Lisa, bob managed to convince Lisa not do do that with the help of Garth and the "squirrelly" mike.
"Cuddling" is not a crime or offense, "Lack of citizenship" is at most a misdemeanor if crimes have been committed, "Statutory rape" is a Felony, and "Interstate Fraud" (you know EXACTLY what I'm referring to) is a Federal Felony.
And of course you don't care about having a following, you moved to a different city so you can burn any bridges you left behind in your old city.
It's a moot point, I don't know who keeps bringing all this shit up, nobody involved was planning to do anything to anyone or report anything to anyone as the persons who had committed acts have ceased committing any acts that had been commissioned. Or something.
Also today I learned that in Arizona, adultery is still a misdemeanor crime if the aggrieved spouse presses charges.
I'm going to hide your comment, but I'm quoting the majority of what you said:
fluffydemon666 posted:
just because 2 people are together doesn't mean they are doing anything, it is all assumed by you guys that they did, you have no actual proof just like no one has any proof that you and your 16 y/o did anything more then cuddle. but when it breaks down it all comes to its none of your concern. just like the first camp meet when you were trying to control where me and kas slept but everyone there saw how that turned out. personally someone thats doing something illegal shouldn't threaten or point out that someone else is doing something else illegal, <snip> as i said before i don't care what people think about me. i don't care to have a gathering because i dont believe in pretending to be someone else then who i really am. "i'd rather be a open sinner then a false saint"
dont judge me based on your ignorance
So? My point still is, Bob & the others weren't willing to fuck up the lives of Leon & Jimmy until Bob was banned.
Who did Jimmy & Leon tell their sexual details to? I recall Bob asking for details (such as, what Leon's pubic hair looks like), but I myself never heard either Jimmy nor Leon admit to or describe sexually intimate moments.
I do NOT state here, nor have I ever stated, that Garth has been having sex with anyone, much less the one he was cuddling with.
Bob himself told me he wanted to report Garth, citing the accessory to a felony reason, and I told him it would be a douchebag move. Bob was the one to tell Lisa about it in the first place, knowing full well that pedophilia is a hot-button for her. He may not have specifically told her to report Jimmy, but he must have known that she would want to.
"Squirrelly' Mike -- good one!
Bob thinks all of this is blown out of proportion and isnt trying to plot against or hurt anyone at this time.
Oh no he did not!!! We need to worm that pup.
At least three of us, Garth included, talked to Jimmy about not doing anything (like sleeping in the same tent when camping, which they did) before they claimed any of the above stated and they later stated all these things to us.
I did not say you were saying that, I was simply stating a fact. According to the Arizona Revised Statutes, cuddling while wearing clothing is perfectly legal from the age of 16 onward. Explicit sexual activity is no legal til 18, as we advised Jimmy.
As for wanting to report. Everyone thought Leon was a much more mature person than he turned out to be. As the people who went camping with him (and didn't leave instantly like Jimmy did) can tell you, Leon snuck alcohol from the group, chugged it without anyone knowing, then began to run around with a glass jar in his hand, was led back to the camp to settle down where he grabbed a hatchet and swung it around madly, then the hatchet was taken away, and he grabbed another hatchet, was taken away again, then he grabbed a hammer and did the same. Once it too was taken away he sat at a chair where he forced himself to puke for hours and eventually calmed down.
As of that point, people became uncomfortable with the relationship between Jimmy and Leon because Leon proved he could not be trusted and Jimmy his "boyfriend" had left him to be taken care of by people uninvolved. Bob getting banned was most likely a result of Bob yelling at Leon to stop running around like a hatchet wielding maniac. I say most likely because I don't know for sure, but it seems incredibly likely. Bob wasn't banned for at least one full day since the incident of Leon getting drunk and almost killing Garth and Mewmew.
This journal isn't about what happened at the camp-meet, it isn't about whether or not Bob's banning was right or wrong.
This journal, as stated, was about the actions of the involved parties after the fact. And as we can see, some parties are so determined to prove the other side is WRONG and they are RIGHT that they're glossing over the fact that they made some errors, too.
Am I saying Jimmy & Leon are innocent? Hell no. Again--many failings, no one bad guy.
But I was able to talk to/chastise Jimmy & Leon about where I think they messed up or mishandled things. We're square with each other. We didn't 100% agree on all parts, but we heard each other out & forgive our differences. The friendship is more important than the difference of opinion.
I'm not sure if the same conversation & outcome is possible with the ones who have been posting things about Jummy.
As I mentioned in my initial rant, somebody (I forget what alias to use for our fiery friend) called Jimmy by name & said he was a pedophile in a certain "cunt's" journal just last week.
A foxeh boi has made several journal-rants concerning the drama over the part months. Interesting how he's repeatedly vented in his journals & somehow that's fine, yet when I vent once it's 'causing drama.' I see nothing wrong with him ranting in his journals; I'm just saying that if one party is allowed to express himself, so is another.
I will send you more info on more recent stuff in a PM.
What in specific did I lie about? If you try to say it was about being irritated with Bob, then Garth was not paying attention when I told Bob he was being annoying.
Surely Garth knows that Bob has a habit of looming over a random furry demanding "We're having a good time, aren't we? I'm not annoying, right?" And if you tell him otherwise, he'll tell you, loudly, that your opinion is wrong--so rather than have an argument with Bob about whether or nor he is in fact being annoying, most folks back off with a "Yeah sure," and beat a hasty retreat -- and maybe later whine to whoever organized the meet about how much Bob bugs them, and why was Bob even told about it, etc (to be fair, Bob doesn't do this to be a jerk, he doesn't mean to be annoying; but it still is annoying, even if Bob doesn't intend for it to be). If Garth wants to call that lying, he's missing a few things.
IMHO, Garth was angry because people wouldn't just shut up & put up.
Garth was lied to by at least three people, you and two others, saying that they'd have no problem attending the camping meet with Bob, then took it back at the last second after already having given a definitive "yes" on the RSVP. In addition, almost no one EVER goes to Garth with complaints, they just complain amongst themselves and Garth never become aware of their being an issue because when he'd hear, in the style of a rumor, that someone had an issue with Bob, he'd ask them if it was true and they'd say they had no problem with him.
From an email Posted by Garth on March 2nd in several online groups:
Okay guys, I'm fucking tired of this shit. From now on, if you tell one person that you're okay with him and then tell me that you're not cool, then you can go to hell. ...
Clearly, people were going to Garth with complaints.
I can understand Garth's frustration at that kind of last-minute change of plans (especially when Juan was bringing supplies which were needed for the event), but when Garth suddenly goes against something he had said earlier and re-invited someone who Daniel and Juan didn't want to spend a great deal of time with, it became a deal breaker.
Neither Daniel or Juan intended to cause that much of a fuss, and I think Daniel at least would apologize for whatever undue trouble or frustration it caused for Garth, but as adults, no one is obligated to spend time with someone they don't like. Sure, tolerate them for a while so as to enjoy the company of others, but spend several days and nights with them? Not so much...
Also, one of those who has had a deep-seated hate for Bob for years was asked if he'd be willing to attend the camping meet with Bob and he specifically said he'd attend and would simply ignore him, to which Garth said would be fine and therefore tried to plan accordingly.
In any event, issues between him and Bob are between them. Issues between Garth and the other two don't need to be so venomous, or so "deep-seated". Especially when at least one side is willing to apologize for mistakes made when no malice or hurt was intended. But that isn't a one-way street.
Forgiveness may work only one way, but the renewal of friendship and/or redress of the past takes two at least.
I don't know whether to be confused or flattered that the absence of one person was so keenly felt. :/
This past Saturday I spent a day--only a day-- on the mountain, and I was about laid up for 2 days afterwards. Who knows what I'd be going through after 3-4 day's camping? I don't want to find out. Saturday's excursion made it abundantly clear that there will be no camping trips for this rat in the forseeable future.
Maybe I should be flattered that someone who had no part of the planning (so much so that he said 'sucks to be you' when asked for advice) is this upset that I didn't go, but instead I'm just mystified.
Garth had no hand in the planning, to the point of saying "sucks to be you" when Jimmy asked for advice. I'm having trouble understanding how anyone's absence caused planning and financial issues for Garth.
When are you coming back to Tucson to visit & assrape all these closeted twinks?!
You so hot.
Okay just messing with you, I still miss your hairless little self.
Have had some experience in this also, and unfortunately the ability to have and use a pseudonym in this subculture gives an 'air of protection' from drama, but if people you know, actually know and who know you, go out to be vindictive, then it can all just snowball.
Yes, you said not to comment on the whole paedophilia thing, but, really, had to. 16 years of age or older is pretty much fine, and legal, in most cultures. And the whole concept only applies to pre-pubescent humans regardless. Therefore, it is drama for the sake of drama, and actually has no social or psychological merit to it.
So sorry to hear/read about drama like this unfolding. Hopefully for you and the group as a whole, people can move past it. Even though, it will be very hard indeed.
I'm right damnit
OMG I totally win because I used 'U' unstead of 'YOU!'
U R teh n00b
I do agree that people need to stop focusing all the negativity to one person and realize that a vast majority have had their hand in the cookie jar as well. While I don't agree with certain things Jimmy has done, I cannot condemn him for being human and I will not stop being friends with people who I have clicked with in the group.
I think that the biggest issue with this group is that it was run by people that didn't handle the drama correctly, i.e. no drama tolerance policy. I am part of another completely unrelated group that seems to run perfectly fine with a no drama tolerance policy. If there's a problem, the leaders will take care of it, either by talking to both parties if they cannot resolve it by themselves, or (in extreme cases) ban certain members. Another one of the issues is that the furry group is being run by someone that is too young to handle things in a mature and confident fashion.
I apologize for writing you a novel in response to that and some of that may not even be quite relevant. I just figured I would share.
If you people want this group to grow and welcome new members, you have to communicate with eachother in a civil manner and stop fucking bitching and moaning about what so and so said about this or that. Grow up and deal with problems like adults.
As I stated previously, this is precisely why I don't go to the furmeets. I can't stand children bickering about everyone else.
Seriously I wouldn't hold it against anyone who compeltely disagreed with me, so long as we can have a civil discussion about it. Or even if they agreed with me but thought I should have just remained silent about it.
I'll admit I wasn't thinking how this rant would affect those who aren't directly involved with all the events leading up to the drama. That was thoughtless of me, and I'm sorry to those who were upset at me for 'stirring things up again.' But then, those who have been posting things about Jimmy have been stirring things up too (and not just about Jimmy), and I find it confusing that I'm expected to keep silent when they are not.
Bobs remains will be placed in a chock full of nuts can and buried in my septic tank!
And Kwan, I wasn't implying that you were stirring things up. I'm just stating as a generality that this sort of issue should be resolved, and if there is no resolution, then at least learned from. I apologize if that seems quite forward. I honestly appreciated the journal, just for the fact that I've heard many different sides of the story and there are only a few consistencies. Think of how in sitcoms when each person tells their side of the story and it's very skewed lol. I have more of a reason to believe you on this, than any one else honestly.
For me, the biggest issue is the behavior after the initial drama. It's kinda ironic that one side periodically throws mud at the other, yet when I say how's about stopping it, I'M the one causing drama. :/
I don't believe everyone has to agree on everything, I'm a big supporter of agreeing to disagree.