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Fun with Induction, Deduction, and Logic
14 years ago
This is a log of a conversation I just had with 
.
Sometimes I have fun teaching her some Objectivism.
(12:28:37 AM) Amaroq: Oh, hell yeah! I just realized that I ordered a book a few days ago and at like midnight I went to check the mail. xD
(12:28:47 AM) brooke: ??
(12:28:50 AM) Amaroq: As usual our mailbox was stuffed full of shit since we never check it. But my book was in there.
(12:29:30 AM) Amaroq: Nerdy nonfiction book written by Oists.
(12:29:39 AM) Amaroq: The Logical Leap
Induction in Physics.
(12:29:53 AM) brooke: Induction.
(12:30:05 AM) Amaroq: Yeah. Like, um.
(12:30:19 AM) Amaroq: When you learn something about reality, that's an induction sort of.
(12:30:27 AM) Amaroq: Like when you take in information about reality.
(12:30:54 AM) Amaroq: Like if you see a bunch of geese and they're all white, and you realize that this must mean geese are generally white, that's an induction.
(12:31:05 AM) brooke: Oh. Okay.
(12:31:05 AM) brooke: ...
(12:31:11 AM) Amaroq: If I'm stating that right.
(12:31:13 AM) brooke: I was just like WHAT in the fuck does that mean
(12:31:14 AM) brooke: LOL
(12:31:52 AM) Amaroq: 2
a (1) : inference of a generalized conclusion from particular instances — compare deduction 2a (2) : a conclusion arrived at by induction
(12:32:29 AM) Amaroq: Deduction is taking what you already know and applying it to other stuff. So it's kinda sorta the opposite of induction.
(12:32:45 AM) Amaroq: Induction takes the knowledge in. Deduction brings it back out and applies it.
(12:34:04 AM) brooke: AH. SO LIKE.
(12:34:16 AM) brooke: I run into a lot of weird furries and conclude, furries are weird as they say.
(12:34:17 AM) brooke: pfpfpfpf
(12:34:25 AM) Amaroq: xD So you've induced that furries are weird.
(12:35:10 AM) Amaroq: And if you meet a new furry that you've never met before, and assume they're going to be weird too because they generally are, that's deduction. You induced the premise "Furries are weird" and then deduced from it: "Therefore, this one will be too.
(12:35:12 AM) Amaroq: "
(12:35:21 AM) brooke: And that they're all into dog penis.
(12:35:24 AM) Amaroq: xD
(12:36:30 AM) Amaroq: Induced premises: Furries are into dog penis. This person is a furry.
Deduced conclusion: Therefore, he's probably also into dog penis.
(12:36:48 AM) Amaroq: Funnest lesson in logic ever eh? xD
(12:39:00 AM) Amaroq: Logic is a lot like writing programs. 'Cuz programming depends on logic. Sometime last year I think I made my first really anal logical argument from premises to a conclusion on the Oism forum. And it felt a lot like writing a program. I had to make sure the premises were supported by reality, and I had to make sure that I followed the logic precisely to the conclusions without contradicting anything.
(12:41:14 AM) Amaroq: That's actually why Ayn Rand often said "Check your premises." Because if you're using logic, you can start from the wrong premises (starting points) and logically come to a really stupid conclusion. Because logic takes you meticulously from your starting points to a conclusion. So if you seem to have logically arrived at the wrong answer, you should check your starting points, because at least one of them is wrong.
(12:41:39 AM) Amaroq: IE, if you deduce something really stupid, you probably made a mistake inducing something.
(12:42:14 AM) Amaroq: Or just made a mistake deducing, one of those two. xD But if you did perfect logic and came up with the wrong answer, then you have a bad premise somewhere.
(12:42:18 AM) Amaroq: Sorry, wall of text.
(12:42:54 AM) Amaroq: Kinda like how computers do exactly what you tell them to do, so if you make a mistake giving them instructions, they do something that you really didn't want them to do.
(12:44:32 AM) Amaroq: So I have two books I have to read at some point. xD Logical Leap, by David Harriman ( an Oist physicist, with philosophical help from Leonard Peikoff), and Human Action, by Ludwig Von Mises. (One of the founders of the austrian school of economics.)
(12:44:44 AM) brooke: DEEHEEHERRPP sorry had to feed the dogs
(12:44:53 AM) Amaroq: xD Wb Aku.
(12:45:16 AM) brooke: Oh thats neat shit actually bro.
(12:45:33 AM) brooke: So if I conclude all furries are into dog penis and am proven wrong, I must research furries more.
(12:45:45 AM) brooke: Then I'll realize, no, horse penis is included into that *CLEVERFACE*
(12:46:20 AM) Amaroq: Well, I don't know if it necessarily logically follows that all furries are into dog penis. But if that's all the information you have on them, then you could generalize that I think. xD
(12:46:26 AM) Amaroq: xD
(12:47:17 AM) brooke: I GO ON FURAFFINITY
(12:47:22 AM) brooke: FRONTPAGE: [Link Removed For Sanity] MEOWTH NOOO
(12:48:30 AM) Amaroq: Er, wait, I think that last paragraph was a little wrong. A generalization is... it might still be a kind of induction. You observe individual furries liking animal penis. And then you take in these examples and form the generalization "Furries like penis." That doesn't necessarily mean that all furries will always like penis. You don't have evidence for that. Just that they generally like penis. And then when you meet one, you apply this generalization to them. Furries love penis, he is a furry, therefore he loves penis.
(12:48:37 AM) Amaroq: Ewww
(12:48:56 AM) Amaroq: Didn't want to see Meowth with a buttplug.
(12:49:26 AM) brooke: NEITHER DID I ITS WHY I SPREAD THE WOE
(12:49:59 AM) Amaroq: xD
(12:50:44 AM) Amaroq: If you meet a furry that doesn't like penis, then you induce further. You expand your knowledge of furries to include, "But some of them don't like penis."
(12:51:29 AM) Amaroq: You'd be surprised how pretty much all of historical philosophers failed to understand that point. As far as I know, Rand was the one who solved the so-called "Problem of induction."
(12:52:24 AM) Amaroq: The problem of induction goes like this: If you induce that swans are white, you can't guarantee that you won't see a black swan some time in the future. This means that induction can never be valid. Durr.
(12:52:46 AM) Amaroq: And like philosophers have been arguing over that shit for years.
(12:53:16 AM) Amaroq: Then Ayn Rand comes along and is like "You're a bunch of idiots. A black swan doesn't invalidate your knowledge, it expands it."
(12:53:45 AM) Amaroq: And the butthurt philosophers are like "Shut up! You're not a REAL philosopher."
(12:53:51 AM) brooke: ... LMFAO
(12:53:56 AM) brooke: that was pretty great
(12:54:01 AM) brooke: I UNDERSTAND SO WELL NOW
(12:55:15 AM) Amaroq: xD
(12:55:31 AM) Amaroq: Probably because I use examples that are so meaningful, haha.
(12:55:50 AM) Amaroq: Using examples is the best way to teach someone. xD And to teach yourself.
(12:56:53 AM) Amaroq: 'Cuz you grasp stuff best when you can relate it to the real world.
(12:59:51 AM) brooke: It is very true
(1:00:14 AM) Amaroq: This conversation is like, kinda tempting to copy/paste. xD
(1:00:31 AM) Amaroq: Partially for the gay furries and partially for the butthurt philosophers.
(1:01:15 AM) brooke: Go ahead
(1:02:02 AM) brooke: be all like.
OISTS. I AM EDUCATING A GREAT MIND HERE.
(1:05:49 AM) Amaroq: xD
(1:05:53 AM) Amaroq: INDEED.
.Sometimes I have fun teaching her some Objectivism.
(12:28:37 AM) Amaroq: Oh, hell yeah! I just realized that I ordered a book a few days ago and at like midnight I went to check the mail. xD
(12:28:47 AM) brooke: ??
(12:28:50 AM) Amaroq: As usual our mailbox was stuffed full of shit since we never check it. But my book was in there.
(12:29:30 AM) Amaroq: Nerdy nonfiction book written by Oists.
(12:29:39 AM) Amaroq: The Logical Leap
Induction in Physics.
(12:29:53 AM) brooke: Induction.
(12:30:05 AM) Amaroq: Yeah. Like, um.
(12:30:19 AM) Amaroq: When you learn something about reality, that's an induction sort of.
(12:30:27 AM) Amaroq: Like when you take in information about reality.
(12:30:54 AM) Amaroq: Like if you see a bunch of geese and they're all white, and you realize that this must mean geese are generally white, that's an induction.
(12:31:05 AM) brooke: Oh. Okay.
(12:31:05 AM) brooke: ...
(12:31:11 AM) Amaroq: If I'm stating that right.
(12:31:13 AM) brooke: I was just like WHAT in the fuck does that mean
(12:31:14 AM) brooke: LOL
(12:31:52 AM) Amaroq: 2
a (1) : inference of a generalized conclusion from particular instances — compare deduction 2a (2) : a conclusion arrived at by induction
(12:32:29 AM) Amaroq: Deduction is taking what you already know and applying it to other stuff. So it's kinda sorta the opposite of induction.
(12:32:45 AM) Amaroq: Induction takes the knowledge in. Deduction brings it back out and applies it.
(12:34:04 AM) brooke: AH. SO LIKE.
(12:34:16 AM) brooke: I run into a lot of weird furries and conclude, furries are weird as they say.
(12:34:17 AM) brooke: pfpfpfpf
(12:34:25 AM) Amaroq: xD So you've induced that furries are weird.
(12:35:10 AM) Amaroq: And if you meet a new furry that you've never met before, and assume they're going to be weird too because they generally are, that's deduction. You induced the premise "Furries are weird" and then deduced from it: "Therefore, this one will be too.
(12:35:12 AM) Amaroq: "
(12:35:21 AM) brooke: And that they're all into dog penis.
(12:35:24 AM) Amaroq: xD
(12:36:30 AM) Amaroq: Induced premises: Furries are into dog penis. This person is a furry.
Deduced conclusion: Therefore, he's probably also into dog penis.
(12:36:48 AM) Amaroq: Funnest lesson in logic ever eh? xD
(12:39:00 AM) Amaroq: Logic is a lot like writing programs. 'Cuz programming depends on logic. Sometime last year I think I made my first really anal logical argument from premises to a conclusion on the Oism forum. And it felt a lot like writing a program. I had to make sure the premises were supported by reality, and I had to make sure that I followed the logic precisely to the conclusions without contradicting anything.
(12:41:14 AM) Amaroq: That's actually why Ayn Rand often said "Check your premises." Because if you're using logic, you can start from the wrong premises (starting points) and logically come to a really stupid conclusion. Because logic takes you meticulously from your starting points to a conclusion. So if you seem to have logically arrived at the wrong answer, you should check your starting points, because at least one of them is wrong.
(12:41:39 AM) Amaroq: IE, if you deduce something really stupid, you probably made a mistake inducing something.
(12:42:14 AM) Amaroq: Or just made a mistake deducing, one of those two. xD But if you did perfect logic and came up with the wrong answer, then you have a bad premise somewhere.
(12:42:18 AM) Amaroq: Sorry, wall of text.
(12:42:54 AM) Amaroq: Kinda like how computers do exactly what you tell them to do, so if you make a mistake giving them instructions, they do something that you really didn't want them to do.
(12:44:32 AM) Amaroq: So I have two books I have to read at some point. xD Logical Leap, by David Harriman ( an Oist physicist, with philosophical help from Leonard Peikoff), and Human Action, by Ludwig Von Mises. (One of the founders of the austrian school of economics.)
(12:44:44 AM) brooke: DEEHEEHERRPP sorry had to feed the dogs
(12:44:53 AM) Amaroq: xD Wb Aku.
(12:45:16 AM) brooke: Oh thats neat shit actually bro.
(12:45:33 AM) brooke: So if I conclude all furries are into dog penis and am proven wrong, I must research furries more.
(12:45:45 AM) brooke: Then I'll realize, no, horse penis is included into that *CLEVERFACE*
(12:46:20 AM) Amaroq: Well, I don't know if it necessarily logically follows that all furries are into dog penis. But if that's all the information you have on them, then you could generalize that I think. xD
(12:46:26 AM) Amaroq: xD
(12:47:17 AM) brooke: I GO ON FURAFFINITY
(12:47:22 AM) brooke: FRONTPAGE: [Link Removed For Sanity] MEOWTH NOOO
(12:48:30 AM) Amaroq: Er, wait, I think that last paragraph was a little wrong. A generalization is... it might still be a kind of induction. You observe individual furries liking animal penis. And then you take in these examples and form the generalization "Furries like penis." That doesn't necessarily mean that all furries will always like penis. You don't have evidence for that. Just that they generally like penis. And then when you meet one, you apply this generalization to them. Furries love penis, he is a furry, therefore he loves penis.
(12:48:37 AM) Amaroq: Ewww
(12:48:56 AM) Amaroq: Didn't want to see Meowth with a buttplug.
(12:49:26 AM) brooke: NEITHER DID I ITS WHY I SPREAD THE WOE
(12:49:59 AM) Amaroq: xD
(12:50:44 AM) Amaroq: If you meet a furry that doesn't like penis, then you induce further. You expand your knowledge of furries to include, "But some of them don't like penis."
(12:51:29 AM) Amaroq: You'd be surprised how pretty much all of historical philosophers failed to understand that point. As far as I know, Rand was the one who solved the so-called "Problem of induction."
(12:52:24 AM) Amaroq: The problem of induction goes like this: If you induce that swans are white, you can't guarantee that you won't see a black swan some time in the future. This means that induction can never be valid. Durr.
(12:52:46 AM) Amaroq: And like philosophers have been arguing over that shit for years.
(12:53:16 AM) Amaroq: Then Ayn Rand comes along and is like "You're a bunch of idiots. A black swan doesn't invalidate your knowledge, it expands it."
(12:53:45 AM) Amaroq: And the butthurt philosophers are like "Shut up! You're not a REAL philosopher."
(12:53:51 AM) brooke: ... LMFAO
(12:53:56 AM) brooke: that was pretty great
(12:54:01 AM) brooke: I UNDERSTAND SO WELL NOW
(12:55:15 AM) Amaroq: xD
(12:55:31 AM) Amaroq: Probably because I use examples that are so meaningful, haha.
(12:55:50 AM) Amaroq: Using examples is the best way to teach someone. xD And to teach yourself.
(12:56:53 AM) Amaroq: 'Cuz you grasp stuff best when you can relate it to the real world.
(12:59:51 AM) brooke: It is very true
(1:00:14 AM) Amaroq: This conversation is like, kinda tempting to copy/paste. xD
(1:00:31 AM) Amaroq: Partially for the gay furries and partially for the butthurt philosophers.
(1:01:15 AM) brooke: Go ahead
(1:02:02 AM) brooke: be all like.
OISTS. I AM EDUCATING A GREAT MIND HERE.
(1:05:49 AM) Amaroq: xD
(1:05:53 AM) Amaroq: INDEED.
