Don't try and educate unless you know your shit
14 years ago
I'm getting tired of people leaving comments about other people's pets under the guise of being 'concerned' for them and trying to 'educate' the owner, but in reality, they have absolutely no idea what they're talking about.
You see it a lot here: people judging someone's entire pet keeping system on ONE photo or ONE statement.
I'd say, rather than accusing people of things, ASK them about the issues.
Rather than saying 'your rats are going to die if you keep them on pine bedding!' and making an assumption that what you're seeing is pine, ASK 'what kind of bedding is that?'
If the answer is pine, THEN you can give out the info. But don't just assume.
Before accusing someone of having an obese animal, ask if the animal is overweight in reality or if its just the angle of the pic/seasonal coat of the animal.
Before assuming someone keeps their rat in an unsuitable cage, ASK first if that is the animal's permanent cage, or whether it is just in that cage for the photo/transport to the vets/as a hospital cage.
Before assuming someone is an irresponsible owner because their dog is not neutered, ask WHY is isn't, many people don't believe in neutering their pets as it can affect their health and they're not necessarily just 'irresponsible' owners.
Before assuming a doberman 'isn't a pure bred dobe' because it has a full tail and ears, EDUCATE yourself on the breed and realise that in many countries, removal of the ears and tail is illegal and a cropped and docked dobe would look weird to US! (getting a dobe pup soon, with full tail, ears and dew-claws. Im looking forward to the comments from USA folk who ask me what breed it is because it doesn't look like the majority of their dobes!)
Before assuming a rat lives alone because there is only one rat in the photo, ASK if the rat has a companion; it may very well just be a photo shoot for that one individual, and he has a bunch of friends 'off scene'.
I could go on, but you get the idea.
We cannot tell much about an animal's life, its situation and its health from one single pic. If we are concerned by the presence, or absence, of something in the pic, ASK before outright accusing.
Also......PLEASE know your shit before you try and educate other people. There is nothing more pathetic than seeing someone leave a comment on someone else's animal trying to 'educate' them, when they are completely clueless themselves and are doing more damage by spreading false information!
For example, a friend recently had a comment aimed at her that 'lone rats will die of depression' and 'once a rat has a respiratory infection, its impossible to cure'.
Both bullshit.
Lone rats are bored, under-stimulated, unhappy and potentially suffer more health and behavioural problems, as well as an estimated shorter life. BUT......I've never known one to die from not having company.
I get loads of lone rats come into my rescue, rats that have been alone their entire lives, AND rats that have once known companionship and have lost their cage mate. They've all been very alive, and none have ever 'died of loneliness' before I could get to them!
Respiratory infections? The key word there is 'infection'. Infections are not permanent, nor incurable. Everyone reading this will have had an infection of some kind in their life, and we're cured now, aren't we?
There is something called 'antibiotics' which are very effective at treating most infections!
Now, I get what the person was trying to say 'lone rats are a bad idea, and respiratory infections are best avoided', but the way they went about saying it just made them look ignorant due to the addition of misinformation.
I've seen it a lot in rat communities: people give 'advice' when they have no business giving advice. Sure, they're trying to help, but you do more harm than good when you give out false information.
If someone asks me a question about rats that is outside of my knowledge, I will say so, I don't just guess the answer and pretend I know what I'm talking about.
Its dangerous.
I remember once seeing someone asking for nutrition advice for their ailing rat, and wanting ideas on what foods would be good to build him up. Someone suggested scrambled egg and fish, both very nutritious foods for rats which do them a lot of good, and are not bad ideas when trying to help a sick rat recover.
Someone then came along and left a statement akin to 'vegan foods are far better for rats, I'd go for nutritious non-animal products if I were you' or words to that effect. Because this particular person was a vegan themselves and had 'vegan' rats (in inverted commas since I believe veganism is a lifestyle and mindset based on one's personal morals and beliefs, and a rat cannot make a choice like that, ergo, they cannot be 'truly' vegan to me as it is forced on them, not chosen by them, and, to me, veganism is a very personal choice).
This was potentially dangerous.
The owner asking the advice was a novice owner, and likely to believe anything an older more experienced rat owner told them. And omitting animal products from a rats diet at the BEST of times takes very careful planning, if it ever can be said to work at all. Owning vegan rats is not something one should leap into on a whim or on one piece of advice.
But this owner was ready to drop the eggs and fish and lean chicken on this one comment. And seriously? If you're trying to bulk up a rat, particularly a young rat, these foods are without a doubt, the BEST foods to use.
So by following this advice, she was potentially putting back her rat's recovery and causing him more damage.
This is the problem with the internet: anyone can give anyone else advice, when they have no experience or information under their belt that qualifies them to do so. And people will often believe things others tell them without checking it out first, particularly if that person is a 'known' figure in the rat community and has had rats a long time.
I wouldn't dream of commenting on a picture of, say, a horse and spurting out advice on horse care. Because I know little about horses. Oh, my mum used to own one, I spent a lot of my childhood at the stables, playing in the hay bales (and waiting to catch a glimpse of wild rats), but that doesn't mean I know enough about horses to be giving out advice to anyone, about any horse issue, just because I grew up with one.
Unfortunately, people are ready to open their mouths and act as teacher when they really don't have the experience and knowledge to do so.
Or at the very least, if you're going to advise someone on something you're not an expert at yourself, word yourself to make them aware that you're not an expert yourself. The addition of terms like 'I have heard' or 'Im not sure on this but I suspect' is appropriate. That way, you're not marching in there as if you're the oracle and all your advice is gospel.
Am I an expert at rats? Hmmm....probably not. There is lots I don't know, and I learn something new, be it about health, behaviour, appropriate foods, the right meds, every single day.
But I know a lot. And I get a lot of questions thrown at me, probably 2 or 3 a day. And if Im not sure on something, I will make sure I make this clear that all I'm doing is hypothesising, not stating a fact.
To sum up?
1. ASK, don't assume. If you're not sure of something on a pic of an animal, ASK the owner for clarification first. If your doubts/suspicions are confirmed, THEN give advice. But never assume something about an animal based on one picture.
2. Know your shit before you try to teach someone else theirs. If you are unsure or less knowledgeable in one subject, make that known before you speak, otherwise the person may take your advice without checking it, and end up harming their animal more.
3. PLEASE learn cultural differences. The way some animals are kept/their appearance in the UK is different to the US and I'm tired of having American standards applied to my animals, as if the entire world MUST be American! I make no secret that I'm British, and we do things differently in some situations.
Here, for example, its common to allow cats to free roam, and is, generally, considered cruel to NOT let a healthy cat outside to roam. Some rescues won't even consider you as an adopter unless you can demonstrate that you'll allow your cat outside.
In the USA, it is the other way around, generally. I've had no end of abuse from American cat owners who have grown up with one system, and can't get their head around the fact that it isn't like that here.
We also don't declaw cats, we don't crop our dogs ears and dock their tails, and some breeds are illegal here (pitbulls, anyone? If you are seen with one here, the dog will be seized and probably destroyed, and the owner will be in trouble)
Again, it comes down to the old 'asking vs assuming' thing. If you see something you're not familiar with on an animal picture, do a little research and find out why the animal looks/is kept in this way, and you may discover it is a cultural difference, and not due to the owner being wrong because they're not doing it 'your way'.
Also be aware that some products are just not available in other countries. Trying to advise a USA rat owner and reeling off a load of products that are UK specific is pointless, and vice versa.
4. If you DO happen to be someone who is very knowledgeable and in an acceptable position to advice others, then please heed this: get over yourself a little. Yes, I said it. So many people in the animal world can be so very militant and unbending on so many issues, and will bully the hell out of anyone who is less knowledgeable, or who is doing something 'wrong'. 'Its my way or the highway' very much applies in lots of animal circles.
Now, there are things one can do to a rat that are unarguably incorrect, as in, they will harm the animal. Some things in pet keeping ARE black and white, either right or wrong.
But not everything.
There are many ways and variations in doing things, and just because it doesn't match your system 100%, that doesn't make it wrong.
You may well change YOUR set up or husbandry methods in a year's time. We all learn, develop and adapt new methods as we learn more and settle into owning that animal.
One person may get their rats out for 2 hours of free range, another may only be able to give 45 minutes. Both are fine, to me. One person may not give their rats hammocks because they destroy them, another may swear by their necessity, both are fine to me.
When you're knowledgeable on something, its easy to believe you are the guru and you can do no wrong. But always keep grounded. Of COURSE if something is blatantly harmful to an animal, it needs to change.
But things don't necessarily need to change just because they're not the way YOU do it.
People know their animals better than you know their animals. What works for your rats may not work for theirs.
And we were all beginners once. We've all made mistakes. And I bet we all wish that when we had made those mistakes, there'd been someone there to tell us nicely what we could do to change it, rather than accuse us of being animal abusers.
You see it a lot here: people judging someone's entire pet keeping system on ONE photo or ONE statement.
I'd say, rather than accusing people of things, ASK them about the issues.
Rather than saying 'your rats are going to die if you keep them on pine bedding!' and making an assumption that what you're seeing is pine, ASK 'what kind of bedding is that?'
If the answer is pine, THEN you can give out the info. But don't just assume.
Before accusing someone of having an obese animal, ask if the animal is overweight in reality or if its just the angle of the pic/seasonal coat of the animal.
Before assuming someone keeps their rat in an unsuitable cage, ASK first if that is the animal's permanent cage, or whether it is just in that cage for the photo/transport to the vets/as a hospital cage.
Before assuming someone is an irresponsible owner because their dog is not neutered, ask WHY is isn't, many people don't believe in neutering their pets as it can affect their health and they're not necessarily just 'irresponsible' owners.
Before assuming a doberman 'isn't a pure bred dobe' because it has a full tail and ears, EDUCATE yourself on the breed and realise that in many countries, removal of the ears and tail is illegal and a cropped and docked dobe would look weird to US! (getting a dobe pup soon, with full tail, ears and dew-claws. Im looking forward to the comments from USA folk who ask me what breed it is because it doesn't look like the majority of their dobes!)
Before assuming a rat lives alone because there is only one rat in the photo, ASK if the rat has a companion; it may very well just be a photo shoot for that one individual, and he has a bunch of friends 'off scene'.
I could go on, but you get the idea.
We cannot tell much about an animal's life, its situation and its health from one single pic. If we are concerned by the presence, or absence, of something in the pic, ASK before outright accusing.
Also......PLEASE know your shit before you try and educate other people. There is nothing more pathetic than seeing someone leave a comment on someone else's animal trying to 'educate' them, when they are completely clueless themselves and are doing more damage by spreading false information!
For example, a friend recently had a comment aimed at her that 'lone rats will die of depression' and 'once a rat has a respiratory infection, its impossible to cure'.
Both bullshit.
Lone rats are bored, under-stimulated, unhappy and potentially suffer more health and behavioural problems, as well as an estimated shorter life. BUT......I've never known one to die from not having company.
I get loads of lone rats come into my rescue, rats that have been alone their entire lives, AND rats that have once known companionship and have lost their cage mate. They've all been very alive, and none have ever 'died of loneliness' before I could get to them!
Respiratory infections? The key word there is 'infection'. Infections are not permanent, nor incurable. Everyone reading this will have had an infection of some kind in their life, and we're cured now, aren't we?
There is something called 'antibiotics' which are very effective at treating most infections!
Now, I get what the person was trying to say 'lone rats are a bad idea, and respiratory infections are best avoided', but the way they went about saying it just made them look ignorant due to the addition of misinformation.
I've seen it a lot in rat communities: people give 'advice' when they have no business giving advice. Sure, they're trying to help, but you do more harm than good when you give out false information.
If someone asks me a question about rats that is outside of my knowledge, I will say so, I don't just guess the answer and pretend I know what I'm talking about.
Its dangerous.
I remember once seeing someone asking for nutrition advice for their ailing rat, and wanting ideas on what foods would be good to build him up. Someone suggested scrambled egg and fish, both very nutritious foods for rats which do them a lot of good, and are not bad ideas when trying to help a sick rat recover.
Someone then came along and left a statement akin to 'vegan foods are far better for rats, I'd go for nutritious non-animal products if I were you' or words to that effect. Because this particular person was a vegan themselves and had 'vegan' rats (in inverted commas since I believe veganism is a lifestyle and mindset based on one's personal morals and beliefs, and a rat cannot make a choice like that, ergo, they cannot be 'truly' vegan to me as it is forced on them, not chosen by them, and, to me, veganism is a very personal choice).
This was potentially dangerous.
The owner asking the advice was a novice owner, and likely to believe anything an older more experienced rat owner told them. And omitting animal products from a rats diet at the BEST of times takes very careful planning, if it ever can be said to work at all. Owning vegan rats is not something one should leap into on a whim or on one piece of advice.
But this owner was ready to drop the eggs and fish and lean chicken on this one comment. And seriously? If you're trying to bulk up a rat, particularly a young rat, these foods are without a doubt, the BEST foods to use.
So by following this advice, she was potentially putting back her rat's recovery and causing him more damage.
This is the problem with the internet: anyone can give anyone else advice, when they have no experience or information under their belt that qualifies them to do so. And people will often believe things others tell them without checking it out first, particularly if that person is a 'known' figure in the rat community and has had rats a long time.
I wouldn't dream of commenting on a picture of, say, a horse and spurting out advice on horse care. Because I know little about horses. Oh, my mum used to own one, I spent a lot of my childhood at the stables, playing in the hay bales (and waiting to catch a glimpse of wild rats), but that doesn't mean I know enough about horses to be giving out advice to anyone, about any horse issue, just because I grew up with one.
Unfortunately, people are ready to open their mouths and act as teacher when they really don't have the experience and knowledge to do so.
Or at the very least, if you're going to advise someone on something you're not an expert at yourself, word yourself to make them aware that you're not an expert yourself. The addition of terms like 'I have heard' or 'Im not sure on this but I suspect' is appropriate. That way, you're not marching in there as if you're the oracle and all your advice is gospel.
Am I an expert at rats? Hmmm....probably not. There is lots I don't know, and I learn something new, be it about health, behaviour, appropriate foods, the right meds, every single day.
But I know a lot. And I get a lot of questions thrown at me, probably 2 or 3 a day. And if Im not sure on something, I will make sure I make this clear that all I'm doing is hypothesising, not stating a fact.
To sum up?
1. ASK, don't assume. If you're not sure of something on a pic of an animal, ASK the owner for clarification first. If your doubts/suspicions are confirmed, THEN give advice. But never assume something about an animal based on one picture.
2. Know your shit before you try to teach someone else theirs. If you are unsure or less knowledgeable in one subject, make that known before you speak, otherwise the person may take your advice without checking it, and end up harming their animal more.
3. PLEASE learn cultural differences. The way some animals are kept/their appearance in the UK is different to the US and I'm tired of having American standards applied to my animals, as if the entire world MUST be American! I make no secret that I'm British, and we do things differently in some situations.
Here, for example, its common to allow cats to free roam, and is, generally, considered cruel to NOT let a healthy cat outside to roam. Some rescues won't even consider you as an adopter unless you can demonstrate that you'll allow your cat outside.
In the USA, it is the other way around, generally. I've had no end of abuse from American cat owners who have grown up with one system, and can't get their head around the fact that it isn't like that here.
We also don't declaw cats, we don't crop our dogs ears and dock their tails, and some breeds are illegal here (pitbulls, anyone? If you are seen with one here, the dog will be seized and probably destroyed, and the owner will be in trouble)
Again, it comes down to the old 'asking vs assuming' thing. If you see something you're not familiar with on an animal picture, do a little research and find out why the animal looks/is kept in this way, and you may discover it is a cultural difference, and not due to the owner being wrong because they're not doing it 'your way'.
Also be aware that some products are just not available in other countries. Trying to advise a USA rat owner and reeling off a load of products that are UK specific is pointless, and vice versa.
4. If you DO happen to be someone who is very knowledgeable and in an acceptable position to advice others, then please heed this: get over yourself a little. Yes, I said it. So many people in the animal world can be so very militant and unbending on so many issues, and will bully the hell out of anyone who is less knowledgeable, or who is doing something 'wrong'. 'Its my way or the highway' very much applies in lots of animal circles.
Now, there are things one can do to a rat that are unarguably incorrect, as in, they will harm the animal. Some things in pet keeping ARE black and white, either right or wrong.
But not everything.
There are many ways and variations in doing things, and just because it doesn't match your system 100%, that doesn't make it wrong.
You may well change YOUR set up or husbandry methods in a year's time. We all learn, develop and adapt new methods as we learn more and settle into owning that animal.
One person may get their rats out for 2 hours of free range, another may only be able to give 45 minutes. Both are fine, to me. One person may not give their rats hammocks because they destroy them, another may swear by their necessity, both are fine to me.
When you're knowledgeable on something, its easy to believe you are the guru and you can do no wrong. But always keep grounded. Of COURSE if something is blatantly harmful to an animal, it needs to change.
But things don't necessarily need to change just because they're not the way YOU do it.
People know their animals better than you know their animals. What works for your rats may not work for theirs.
And we were all beginners once. We've all made mistakes. And I bet we all wish that when we had made those mistakes, there'd been someone there to tell us nicely what we could do to change it, rather than accuse us of being animal abusers.
FA+

Very sweet though! Though I wouldn't reccomend other people to try it!
Excellent advice from you always. Not all americans crop and chop though, you know.
We're not all that bad. We are sister-cultures after all!
But moving in doberman circles, and talking to a lot of american dobie owners, it saddens me how the practise is so accepted and even deemed 'necessary' by dobie owners over there. It is a completely different mind set. I'd say that the majority of serious dobie lovers in the USA that I've interacted with are, if not pro docking and cropping, then certainly see no issue with it.
I actually left an american based doberman forum specifically because the attitude toward it bothered me so much, and I faced abuse for not approving of it.
It seemed the general opinion was that if the dog was not cropped and docked, then it wasn't a true doberman, since that is what American folk are more used to seeing. People seemed concerned that if they left their dog natural, it wouldn't be seen as a doberman.
While Im happy to live and let live and not pick arguments with people who choose to keep their cats in, they always seem to want to start something with me :(
Funny you should mention the neutering thing, as I've just made a post about that lower down. I, too, am concerned for the health problems associated with neutering, particularly when done so young, as seems to be common. I see no reason to alter a healthy dog 'just because'. The list of potential health problems that accompany neutering are longer than the potential benefits.
For bitches, Im still undecided, as the health benefits are greater for them than for dogs. Im still on the fence about whether I'd spay a female or not. But I wouldn't alter a healthy male dog, I see no reason to. If one is a responsible owner, one can cope with an intact dog without adding to the overpopulation problem!
The problem is that we have these fierce 'YOU MUST NEUTER' campaigns because there are a lot of idiots in the world who really cannot be responsible with their dogs, and WOULD add to the overpopulation problem because they're idiots.
But there are plenty of good, responsible dog owners out there who are perfectly able to own intact animals with no issues. Its sad that these people get demonised because the general public has been so brain washed about neutering.
I mean, for a lot of people, I think they SHOULD neuter, as they are not responsible enough to look after an intact dog. But I also think the health problems associated with it should be exposed more so people can make an informed choice. At the moment, most people don't even realise the health issues neutering can cause.
Vets still reccomend it, and none ever give you the information about the potential health problems. I used to work at a vets, and don't know anyone who ever told new owners about the potential problems with spaying and castrating, in fact, some of the nurses probably weren't aware of them themselves!
At best, they'll mention there is an anaesthetic risk, but thats about it, nothing about bone cancer, urinary tract problems etc. I think most people may think twice if they knew these issues, which is possibly why vets don't want them to be known.
Every spay or castrate is money in their pocket, after all.
I just hate the way people are guilted into it, as if you're not a responsible owner unless you do it.
I'll admit I was once that way. I'd see an intact male dog walking down the street and instantly judge the owner as being lazy or irresponsible (though to be fair, in this area, Im probably right most of the time since we have a lot of scummy dog owners round here) but now I don't see it as quite so black and white.
You can apply this to anything, I've seen a lot of people give artists terrible advice. I've had lesser skilled artists round on me and get pissy because others told them that giving critique was a mean thing to do. It's one of the reasons I hate dealing with beginners who have a hugbox.
That said, people do lie, I came across an appalling post where someone had let their disabled child keep a guinea pig in their room, the kid in a fit of rage punched the piggie causing internal bleeding and they left it to die slowly for over 12 hours, when I asked why they didn't take it to the vet and have it put down since it was injured, they lied to me and said there wasn't one nearby. Google maps however does not lie, 10 emergency vets within ten miles of them. (Then I was banned for being "judgmental" about a neurotypical who had posted to a autistic forum calling their autistic kid a monster for punching the piggie and yet admitting they let the piggie die in pain alone).
But I really don't much like the idea of keeping a cat locked in a house for its entire life. I wouldn't want to be locked indoors forever and never get to breathe fresh air or feel grass under my feet. If someone kept a dog locked indoors forever, it would be seen as animal abuse, but for cats it seems ok.
I think a good compromise is an outdoor enclosure. That way, people can let their cat have some freedom without worrying it will be hit by a car or eaten by a predator (which I think is one of the main differences between the UK and the USA: We don't have any large predators here).
I don't preach at people with indoor cats, though, as I don't like it when they preach at me. I just keep my mouth shut, unless they specifically ask me what I think. I've faced SO much hostility on this issue though.
I remember once I posted a pic of my Maine Coon cat outside in our garden, indoor/outdoor wasn't even the subject at hand. And someone, unasked, just posted 'nice cat, though you know he'd be happier and healthier as an indoor only cat?'
I was just gob-smacked.
This person was assuming I didn't know what was best for my own animal, or that I was somehow stupid and needed his advice in order to be a responsible pet owner. He had no idea where I lived, what my neighbourhood was like, what country I lived in, he didn't know anything about me or my cat other than this one picture of my cat sitting in the grass.
And he'd already decided he knew what was 'healthiest' for my cat!
I'd never let any cat of mine outside unless it was neutered, vaccinated and microchipped, and I've owned cats for over 22 years without a single problem arising from them being allowed outside. Added to which, the maine coon is a working cat breed, designed to be out in snow and ice, they're hardy and really well suited to the outdoors!
But none of this mattered to this guy, he just saw my cat and instantly saw the opportunity to push his beliefs onto me.
THATS what I despise, and I can't really post on any cat forums any more because of this issue and the rudeness of people who think they know what is better for my cat than I do.
I honestly can't stand vegan pets, or vegan kids.
I have no issue, however, with veganism for the individual who is informed and makes their own personal choice. I'd fully support their right to live this way. But it is such a personal choice that I can't stand seeing it pushed onto those who don't have the understanding to make that choice themselves, and cannot consent to it.
To me, its like raising a child to be fiercely religious; its not that child's choice, nor that child's belief, its YOUR belief that you've pushed onto them to the point where they know nothing else. That isn't choice, thats brainwashing.
A child cannot be said to have truly made a choice on a lifestyle if the alternative to that lifestyle has been hidden from them. A child cannot truely make a choice on whether they want to be vegan if they have never been allowed to experience the alternative.
At least raising your child omnivore allows them to experience BOTH food types and then, when they're older and can actually understand the issues around food, they can choose to omit the meat, or to continue eating it.
Denying a child something, then kidding yourself that that makes it their 'choice' is just wacko.
I think a child should be allowed to make their own choice on what lifestyle they want, and what they believe, the idea of someone raising them to be a little clone of themselves is just scary, to me.
Things like personal beliefs, religion, veganism and such, are so.....well....PERSONAL that I just don;t like seeing them shoved onto those who can't defend themselves against it.
There is nothing sadder than seeing a child touting religious nonsense like a parrot, because their parents have drilled it into them. They don't understand what they're really saying, they don't know any different. Part of someone's job as a parent is to let children experience lots of things, to enable them to make choices on which ones they want to experience again! Keeping them sheltered so they ONLY believe what you believe is horrible.
Animals are slightly different, but they're still non-consenting, and unable to understand the 'reasons' why they're 'vegan'.
One of the things about the vegans I've met is that they're very sure on their beliefs, and the reasons why they've chosen that lifestyle. They have very firm opinions on all the issues surrounding food production, and they've considered them hard before making that choice.
Part of what defines them is 'I've made a choice to not consume animals, because it is my belief that it is wrong'.
To them, being vegan isn't just about what they eat, its about the moral choice they have made.
Take the whole 'belief' thing out of it, as we have to when talking about a 'vegan' animal, and it kinda isn't the same thing. Animals don't have beliefs, and they don't have morals. Food is food. They don't care where it comes from, or what had to suffer and die to produce it. If they cared about that, no wolf would ever be able to rip a caribou to bits!
The idea of us taking our human belief systems and morals and pushing them onto a being that doesn't give a shit about belief and morals, possibly at the detriment of that animal, doesn't sit well with me.
People will say 'oh, a dog/rat can survive on a vegan diet'. Im sure many can. But life isn't about just 'surviving', to me, its about thriving.
I've never seen any evidence that a vegan diet is BETTER for a dog or rat than an omnivore one. If it were best for them, that's what nature would have shaped them to be.
For baby rats, a vegan diet is actually extremely damaging, as they need very high amounts of protein in order to support their rapid growth phase. Animal protein is the best, and some think ONLY, effective way to get this into them.
God, I could go on about this for ages.
But one last thing that does piss me off about those I know who have vegan rats/dogs, is that they anthropomorphism animals to ridiculous levels, and seem to have little understanding of how animals actually think.
I even had one say to me 'my dog is a very loving dog, if she could choose, she wouldn't want to think that other animals are killed just for her'.
I mean.....crazy levels of anthropomorphism. Dogs don't care. Dogs eat poo. Dogs will happily rip a rabbit to bits, and enjoy doing it.
We really do need, sometimes, to take a step back and put things into perspective and drop the arrogance that because WE think one way, every other animal must do, or should do, aswell.
And of course, there are the human predators, and I'm not talking assholes who purposefully run over animals, but the folks that steal them. They're stolen for medical research, for "bait" dogs in areas with a dog fighting problem, and stolen just to try to collect a reward. Or just because they don't like the apparent breed and want to kill it. Dogs are more of a target there, but its not unheard of for cats.
I've also had several customers who had their animals stolen from their yards. :/
What I did was pay almost $1000 to have my back yard installed with a cat-proof fence. That way the cats can go outside in the back yard, but can't get out of the yard. I wish i could let them roam, but I already lost one cat to a coyote some years ago, and I'm not going through that again.
As you say, cat proof fences and outdoor enclosures :)
If you don't view it as important, then an outside run or cat proof garden is probably deemed an unnecessary expense.
But to me, I view a cat's ability to go outside as very important to it, so I'd probably view the enclosure costs as part and parcel of owning a cat, the same as the vaccination costs or microchipping. If I couldn't afford to include that, I'd probably not get a cat.
Not saying Im right and you're wrong. If you don't view outside access as important then I see where you're coming from with the cost.
I do, however.
My boyfriend's mum rescues cats, and some can roam, but some can't. She has a cat proof garden, so the ones who go out the back can't go any further. Im not sure how much it cost, but I think they did it themselves with plastic corrugated sheeting that overhangs.
I had to pay a professional to install it, which was over half of the 1K cost. I can barely hammer a nail properly, myself, let alone install something this complicated.
We've thought of that, if just to keep my older cat from getting shot when she decides she wants to go on an adventure in drunken redneck land. Just cost-prohibitive.
Lord knows what people would say if I was to say "well most of my rats are outside" They'd have a heart attack. Although they are in very large cages out there, have PLENTY of bedding material and buddies to keep warm and are in sheds to stay out of the elements and I know they get more ventilation out there than being cooped up in the house. That also brings to mind the cat thing. I have seven. There is no way I'd keep all of my cats in the house. They all come in at night and sleep, but in the morning they all want out and Im happy to let them go out. And I'd never dream of declawing a cat. People KNOW cats have claws they should KNOW they will claw things so they shouldn't get one if it is going to bother them that badly. Mine actually don't claw anything inside except door frames. We have a scratching post that they prefer.
As for dogs Ive never ran into the docking issue, but I was called 'cruel' once and given a big lecture because I take my dog outside and put him on a chain for a couple hours a day ((if its not too cold, raining or dark, I only do this on nice days)) He goes out there. Plays with the cats. Barks at the neighbors, snoozes in the sun. I never leave him there when Im gone. I just cant fence in my property and Im not about to let him run loose over here there are dogs vastly bigger than he is around, but being I decided to let him have some outside time 'on a chain' I was being cruel. I have kids and other animals and things to attend to I dont always have time to walk my dog so this seemed like the best way to give him some outside exercise.
And Im like you, I know alot about rats and...tarantulas and scorpions, but I never claim to know EVERYTHING and I don't go around talking out of my ass about things that Im not 100% sure of.
As for my cats they tend to leave my rats alone. Theyre all about trying to get my mice. Im a paranoid person so when I bring rats in or get them out for any reason I take them into my bedroom where there are no kitty cats and let them play on the bed. My cats have learned the hard way not to mess with my rats because if a kitty sticks a curious paw or nose into a cage they quickly learn it was a BAD idea as my rats really aren't afraid of them and will make a grab for them. Never had a cat hurt a rat of mine yet and visa versa, although my rats have made my cats yowl after spooking them, but they werent hurt. lol.
Now Ive heard of people letting rat and cats play together. I'm just too paranoid a person and always think in the back of my mind that something could go wrong no matter how close I was watching them.
PS - your question wasn't ignorant. I get that alot. ;)
While Im more lenient on it for bitches than for dogs, as the health benefits of spaying are around equal with the health benefits for leaving them entire, I do believe the health risks associated with neutering in males are as bad, or worse, than those associated with leaving the dog intact.
The reason we have such rabid neutering messages shoved down our throats is because a lot of people are too stupid to responsibly own an intact dog, and WOULD end up adding to the dog numbers. We all know an idiot like that.
The reason neutering is pushed on us so hard is about population control, NOT health of the dog.
But this is grossly unfair to assume ALL dog owners are too stupid to own an intact dog. There is absolutely no reason to castrate a healthy, happy dog, and several reasons not to.
If you're a responsible owner, there is no need to neuter as a routine op, and many believe it causes them health problems, PARTICULARLY when done early, as seems to be the fashion. Neutering before a year of age really upsets me, it is SO bad for a dog.
I used to be in the 'always neuter your dog' camp too, for a long time. But when researching the subject to get a dog of my own, I came across more and more people who were opting to leave their dog intact, and my breeder actually stated he believes it causes health problems too.
I knew these were people who knew more about dogs than me, so I knew they wouldn't believe this unless there was a good reason, so I researched it myself and came across all the health problems neutering causes, the ones they brush under the carpet.
Obviously if someone is too stupid to cope with an intact dog, they SHOULD get it fixed, or if there is a medical reason to do so.
And as I say, Im still on the fence about bitches. In all likelihood, I'd spay any female dog I had. But male? Nope, not unless there was a valid reason to.
I would advise reading this, which details the health problems associated with neutering, the ones were rarely hear about because shelters don't want people to know them:
http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/Long.....uterInDogs.pdf
I DO understand why there is such a strong 'neuter your pet' message; because joe average probably isn't responsible enough to own an intact dog. But its fully do-able, and those of us who believe neutering causes health problems have very valid reasons not to alter our animals.
The little experience I've had with intact dogs is that the males tend to be more agressive, esp. towards other dogs, and are also constantly horny. With females you have to deal with messy heat periods and keep them locked up so they won't be assaulted by horny male dogs.
If people want to have to deal with that I guess it's their bsiness, but so many other things influence a dog's health (diet, exercise) that it seems hardly worth the aggrivation and stress to the dog to go through multiple heat periods or be horny 24/7.
You will find a lot of cultural bias in the US towards getting your pet fixed, as it's drummed into us that responsible pet owners do that. People that don't are looked down on, and considered ignorant, lazy and/or impoverished (only dirt-poor white trash or Mexicans won't get their pets fixed.) If you tried to press an anti-spay or nueter agenda here, people would just look at you funny.
But with dogs, its not as clear cut as people think.
Unfixed male dogs are not more aggressive by default. Plenty of castrated male dogs are also aggressive. Aggression in dogs has a lot more to do with the way they're raised and socialised, their breeding, and their lifestyle.
Most people who are against neutering don't exactly want to be living with an aggressive dog, and I don't think they'd advocate holding off on the neutering if they thought it was likely to cause aggression (that being a big reason dogs end up in rescue).
The aggression toward other males is not an uncommon thing with dogs, fixed or otherwise, and is particularly common in certain breeds. Dobies, for example, are quite prone to male on male aggression, whether they're fixed or not. This isn't a real problem, though, if you're a single dog household, or are able to control your dog on walks. I would never assume any dog I saw out was automatically friendly to other dogs, so it pays to be wary around any dog you pass while walking your own.
For the horniness, I couldn't comment. I do know, however, that just because an animal is intact, it doesn't mean it is obsessed with sex. I have dozens of intact male rats, and they don't go around constantly humping things, or even seem to realise they even have balls. The only time they are remotely sexually charged is when a female in heat is right near their cage. But otherwise, they couldn't care less.
And rats are pretty horny animals generally, given how much they breed!
So Im not sure how true the stereotype about intact animals being constantly horny is. I've certainly not seen it in any intact male animal I've owned or been around.
With bitches and the mess of heat, I can see why that puts people off. But you can buy special panties for them, which not only keep them clean and stop them messing up the house, but provide protection if, god forbid, a male dog gets hold of her.
You do have to be extra careful with a bitch on heat when out walking, and you'd obviously never let her off the lead. But its not necessary to lock her up; just be extra careful and vigilant when taking her out, or take her to secluded places where you won't see many other dogs.
I am still on the fence with fixing when it comes to females, and will probably fix any female dog I have as I do consider that the benefits and the risks are about even.
If you tried to press an anti-spay or nueter agenda here, people would just look at you funny.
Its not so much that Im anti, as I can sense in it in some situations. I just wish people would be given the full info so as to make an informed choice, because currently, not many people even realise the potential health risks, and Im sure they'd want to.
Some people would still choose to fix their animals, even once aware of the risks. Others would not. I just wish more people could have the info to make the right choice for them.
I also wouldn't be too sure that this mindset is just a UK thing. On forums I've been on, the people who think this way come from all over, they're not just UK dog owners. Those of us who don't automatically spay and castrate our pets, and are aware of the health issues, are still the minority, in all countries. Most countries now do push a spay/castrate agenda, and the UK certainly does too.
If you want the info on the associated risks, you have to seek it out yourself, thats the main reason. It won't be given to you by your vet or the RSPCA.
Currently, owing to the unavailability of pits and the chances you'll get in trouble for owning one, people go for the legal alternative: the staffordshire bull terrier.
The staffy is currently the most abused breed in the UK, due to this.
It is the current 'fashionable tough guy' dog to own. Wannabe gangsters get them to look like tough guys, and obviously, this tends to go hand in hand with massive abandonment, poor training, bad breeding of the dogs, and people using them for the wrong reasons.
As such, not only do staffies have a horrible reputation here (akin to the rep pits have in the USA) but they are flooding rescue centres. If you go to a rescue here, 80% of the dogs in the kennels are staffies, or staffy cross.
The abuse these dogs suffer at the hands of morons who get them for the wrong reasons is disgusting.
Therefore, if pits were suddenly made legal here, all these young wannabe gangster kids who currently hang around the streets with their badly trained and badly disciplined staffy would have pits instead.
And this would just NOT be good for that breed.
Maybe they should never have been banned in the first place. But now they are, and have been for so long, I think making them legal again would do more harm than good.
of course, regardless of breed specific legislation, people are going to do horrible stupid things to their animals.
my boyfriend's sister has a friend whose stepfather treats their pitbull like garbage. and she's just a puppy. whenever he comes home, he has verbally abused to dog into fearing him, so it slinks over on its belly and sits, petrified, beside him while he watches tv and drinks beer. the dog is forced to sleep in the cold garage at night on an old mattress. the guy beats it with a belt.
i've told my boyfriend's sister that she needs to go to animal control and she's said repeatedly that "she won't do that to her friend's family."
it's fucking horseshit and it makes me crazy. if it weren't for the fact that it would piss off my boyfriend a lot, i'd call the police anyway.
people think that dogs are a fashion statement. that certain animals are going to make them look tougher and it's horseshit. i just hate people so much ;_;
I am an American, but I've lived in several different places with different hazards. Regarding cats being allowed outdoors, while I would never tell another person how to raise their pet, it is generally considered dangerous to have free-roaming cats in many areas. I grew up with two cats that we allowed to roam when we lived in Italy because then they were young and healthy, and there were no predators present on the island we lived on. We moved to the eastern United States and we had to stop letting them free-roam, but they were allowed outside in our fenced backyard. The area was constantly having construction done on plots nearby, we had neighbors who put rat poison or antifreeze in their yards for roaming cats and vermin.
Where I live now, in the northwestern United States, I would probably not allow a cat to roam outside, even in a fenced area, unless I was with it. We have dense populations of coyotes, racoons, birds of prey, and many other predators, and aren't far from forested areas where there have been bear and wolf sightings. In my apartment complex, there is also a hefty population of feral cats from tenants who abandon their pets when they move out and also because other tenants feed the ones that are here. Coyotes come within city limits to prey on the stray cats. It is simply too dangerous for a domesticated cat to be outside here.
I've had the privelege of living in many places, so I know the differences in pet safety that arise with different geography. If someone allows a cat to roam, I could probably tell based on where they live whether it's a good idea or not. You're absolutely right that no one should just assume that a pet is in a dangerous situation just by a single incident or photograph, but if a person lives in a single area their entire life, they probably wouldn't know any better and I don't think it's something to get outraged over if they speak up about it. While it would certainly be better if they asked questions first, they really are just concerned about the safety of the cat.
You would think it was something to be outraged by if every single time you posted about your cat, someone saw fit to tell you what they thought you were doing wrong with it. I've been chased off 3 separate cat forums for this issue, from people unwilling to accept that I know what is best for my own cat.
And the sad part is that I NEVER cast judgement on them. I don't really LIKE the idea of indoor only cats, but I don't go up to the owners and tell them so out of the blue without being asked. Yet they frequently do with me.
I could easily be just as confrontational with them if I chose to, and hide it under the guise of 'Im just concerned for your cat!' but I trust people to make the right decisions for their personal animals, even if its not the decision I would make.
It becomes frustrating when every single time you post about your cat, someone comes along to leave a comment that implies they don't think you're smart enough to make sensible decisions on your own. Its a form of arrogance on their part, as if they think I need their advice to be a good cat owner.
If I want advice on people, I'll ask for that specific advice.
If I don't ask for it, they should realise I don't need it. I've managed to be a pretty successful cat owner for 22 years without their help :P
There are a number of health and behavioural problems that can be specific to indoor only cats, and yet I don't feel the need to blast their owners, or chase them off forums, or tell them they can't look after their animals correctly, because frankly, its none of my business how they keep their cat, and Im sure most of them have made the decision they've made for a good reason.
I just wish they'd extend that same understanding to me.
Honestly, the militant indoor only cat owners are one of the most bigoted, judgemental, rude and unpleasant people I've run into in my whole time online, I've had worse debates with those people than I've ever had about religion or abortion!
Militant indoor cat owners come in a tied first place with militant vegans for the most hostile, bigoted, arrogant and holier than thou attitude toward anyone who doesn't think the same way.
If they're trying to tell you that on principle, you're raising your cat wrong, then of course they're wrong. If someone is asking honest questions and is generally concerned, then I don't see a problem with it honestly. But you're entitled to your opinion.
I've had a cat since July of last year. We adopted him from one of the city shelters and he's been kept a house cat since then. This was something I decided based on where we live. Our house is on a major transit route and is pretty frequently driven by people living in the area, a lot of whom are not too observant. If they can't even slow down their vehicles for the kids at the school down the road, what kind of chance does my pet stand? That and the fact that not too far out of the city there's a lot of things that could eat him. But I do like the idea of an outdoor enclosure and would like to put one in our yard, especially since I'm planning to adopt another cat to basically keep this one company. It would definitely go a long ways to making sure they get the exercise they need, especially being house cats.
As for my family, their cat has been an outdoor cat her whole life. The only person who wanted her to stay in the house was my sister, because she was worried about the cat's well-being. My parents and the cat have lived for the past five years or so in a house that backs onto the park, which the cat loves. She goes out and hunts mice. She was picked up off the street before we got her and I don't think there was any power in this world that could have kept her in a house. Our cat is so completely chilled out, he's pretty much fine with wherever you put him :P
I'm a vegetarian myself. My rats aren't. They get their share of nice, organic meat once in a while, along with dog biscuit treats and scrambled eggs!
I also took in a pregnant stray cat for fostering last year and she was a total skeleton when I first got her. Filled with mites, worms and was nothing but skin and fur - above all that, she was very shy and would often hiss at me. When I started to feed her raw, she gained weight like woah. In a matter of no time, she turned into an absolutely beautiful and lithe creature with glossy fur. She also started to trust me and while she wasn't a big fan of being picked up, she'd happily come for a cuddle. Her kittens grew slowly (like most rawfed animals), but became strong and sturdy.
For this, I got a lot of shit. Not only did people call me a hypocrite for being a vegetarian and feeding my cats raw, but also a moron for giving them "dangerous raw meat". Jesus fuck... that's the appreciation you get for saving a family of kitties. It was even harder to find the cats families who would agree to continue feeding them raw, but I found some eventually.
I know that by buying my animals raw, I know exactly what they're eating, I can see the actual meat in its raw state, and I can buy it from local butchers that I know only sell organic, free range.
I have no idea what is in a typical tin of cat food, what species it comes from, where in the world it was imported from, or how those animals were treated.
And aside from that, if I don't even know what the meat really is or where it comes from, I don't trust it to be good for my pet!
People are so ignorant about raw, and so touchy about it. And Im sure its because it looks like actual meat. People prefer to feed their cat mushed up low grade crap that is mostly cereal rather than a piece of real meat. Some people can be so hypocritical.
So did the veggies who were opposing you think you should feed your cat no meat at all? Or was it just raw they didn't like?
Raw is undoubtedly more natural, cats don't eat processed mush made from cereal and hooves in the wild. Its a no brainer to me that they'd be healthier on real meat. I can't see why people can't get their head around this.
So did the veggies who were opposing you think you should feed your cat no meat at all? Or was it just raw they didn't like?
Just a few people wanted me to feed "high grade vegan cat food", because they oppose animal products all together, but people seriously just don't like raw, even if they aren't vegetarians themselves. They come up with tons of extremely ridiculous excuses for it:
1. Cats (and dogs, ferrets, whatever, let's just use cats as an example) have been domesticated so long that they have now evolved to eat cat food, not raw food.
2. Cat food is made by professionals, vets and scientists and is therefore better than raw food. In cat food, your cat will get all its nutritions, while putting together a raw diet is extremely difficult and you'll need to add supplements, vitamins, minerals etc.
3. Your cat will get parasites from raw food.
4. Bits of bone will destroy your cat's esophagus and stomach.
5. Your cat will become wild and aggressive from raw food, and more likely to run away and/or attack you.
6. Your cat will most likely be allergic to raw food.
7. Meat is people-food and cats should eat cat food.
I've had the most ridiculous conversations with people opposed to raw and I really have to admit that I think you're right: It's probably just because the meat looks like real meat. I visit Turkey a lot and sometimes feed the stray dogs there - you cannot believe how much negative feedback I got for posting a picture of one of the dogs munching on a skinned sheep's head. I bought it cheap at the butcher's and the dogs go crazy for them, so why not. It's a very common treat for dogs down there. Sure, it looks absolutely disgusting, but it's still the same thing as the mutton chops people probably enjoy so much. If anyone's a hypocrite, it's the people who eat good, fresh meat themselves and deny it to their carnivorous pets, in my opinion!
I've never understood the idea that real meat will make animals aggressive. I've even known vets to spout this rubbish! Does eating meat make humans more aggressive? Are omnivore humans more aggressive than vegan humans? Not at all.
While I see the appeal of just putting down a tin of food that has everything your cat needs in it, for ease, people really should research raw before they speak. Having animals isn't about whats easiest, for me, its about whats best for them.
A cat will survive on commercial foods, and some do well on them (my mums cat is about 7, had middle of the road tins of food all his life, and is in wonderful health, lovely coat, fantastic white teeth, perfect weight, never been to the vet in his life other than to get fixed and have his shots ) there is no doubt that they are not natural and that raw, in general, is far less likely to cause health problems.
Curious about your mom's cat, though , is he an outdoor cat? How does he keep his teeth clean?
And congrats on the dobe! Will you be adopting or buying from a breeder? That's another great issue as well, I believe - most Americans I've spoken to (compared to Europeans) seem to think it's outright evil to buy from a breeder rather than adopt from a rescue. While I do believe it's important to rescue, I can't see anything wrong with getting a pup from a good, responsible breeder that takes health and mentality very seriously. What are your thoughts on the matter, being a rescuer yourself?
I have no idea how his teeth stay so decent at his age, other than perhaps genetics. I have seen cats the same age as him, who eat the same store bought cat food, with atrocious teeth. But then, he is a hunter, and he catches a lot of mice and pigeons, which he devours the whole lot of, so in a way, he does have a 'raw' diet too! Maybe this contributes to his condition.
I'll be getting my dobe from a breeder, one of the top breeders in the country.
We did look into rescue, but dobes are not common in rescue around here, and the only ones I've ever seen over the years I've been planning getting one, are dogs with health or behavioural issues.
And while an owner who has had lots of dobes before might be able to cope with that, I've never owned one, so I don't feel ready to take that on. I want to make my first dobe experience as pain free as possible, and lessen the damage by getting one from a breeder who health tests and that I know breeds dogs of good health and sound temperament.
I also want a dog from a pup as I want him/her to grow up around my other animals and grow up into my lifestyle. Almost all the dobes I looked at that I could find in rescue (which was only a handful over all that time) either had issues with cats, or had developed behavioural problems from their crappy former owners.
It just wanted something I was ready to deal with as a first time dobe owner.
I think once I've owned my first, I might then consider a rescue dog later on down the line, when Im a little more experienced and better able to cope. I know with the rats that I would not have been able to cope with the challenges a lot of my rescues have presented me with back when I was a newbie owner.
I agree with you in that there is NOTHING wrong with someone getting a pup from a good breeder, and there are many valid reasons to do so, such as my own! Providing they do choose a good breeder and don't fall into the trap of being duped by a BYB, then it is as good a thing to do as to rescue.
Good breeders, like good rat breeders, are not just producing animals for the sake of having a show prospect or a money maker, they're breeding to help eliminate health and temperament problems, so I feel supporting them is just as vital as supporting rescues.
To be honest, I HATE the attitude that some rescuers have of 'only a rescue dog is good enough, all breeders are evil, anyone who buys from a breeder instead of rescuing is sick!' It drives me mad, because its SO ignorant and short sighted.
Not everyone can cope with a rescue animal. Not everyone has the choice of a rescue animal (there are some breeds here that you'll see pop up in rescue perhaps once every 10 years? And if you want a specific breed but in puppy form, you'll be waiting forever here, if you ever even get one at all) and a rescue animal doesn't suit everyone's lifestyle.
I think people should be allowed to get the animal they really want, in their heart, and not be bullied into a rescue if thats not what they want, because it just doesn't benefit the animal in the long run.
I saw a sad case once of someone on a rat forum who really wanted a couple of breeder rats, primarily for the assurance of better health and temperament; perfectly reasonable. But she was pushed and pushed by the pro rescue lot into getting a couple of rescue rats, even though she didn't really plan that or want that. But she was made to feel like a demon for daring to consider a breeder when 'so many are in rescue and need homes!'
So she got these rescue rats in the end and a few weeks later was posting about how they were so incredibly nervous and skittish that she couldn't handle them. Then one nipped her. She tried the 'taming' advice given, but just wasn't experienced enough to know what she was doing.
The rats ended up back in rescue shortly after because she just couldn't deal with them. If she'd gotten the breeder rats she wanted from the start, this wouldn't have happened.
That, to me, is why I hate people bullying others into rescuing. Even as a rescuer myself, I do often advise people to go to a breeder rather than get a rescue, if it seems to me they are a novice owner or not suited to a rescue rat that is likely to have far more health issues than a breeder rat.
I do advise rescue rats if the person is experienced with rats and can cope with health problems and has experience with those. But its about 50/50 to who I reccomend a rescue and who I reccomend a breeder.
On the dog-side of things, I've experienced some terrible rescue-bullying in the past and it honestly made me feel real bad back then. I'm the sort of person that can spend several years researching an animal before getting one - not to be a total snob or anything, but it makes me feel safe that I'm 100% sure of what I'm getting into. Makes problem solving much easier.
But then I asked this dog forum about breeders and where to find good ones, I quickly got the attention from extreme pro-rescue people. I grew up in a neighborhood with a lot of friendly working dogs, so I've always been interested in rottweilers, staffies and the lot - basically dogs that people are afraid of, which I never realized as a kid, since the dogs around me were total goofballs. I'd like to have a jolly, but self-confident dog that isn't easily spooked.
I told the forum that I was looking for people who bred these specific dogs and instead of the answers I was looking for, I mostly got: "Adopt a mutt from a shelter." and "Adopt, don't shop."
When I said that I had listed a couple of shelters, they rarely had the breeds I was looking for and when they had them, they often didn't like cats or smaller animals or strangers or whatever. Some were not trained at all and some would destroy a house if they were left alone. While I'm not opposed to adopting an older dog, I - like you - am not yet sure I can handle a whole bunch of potential problems like that. I'm not totally opposed to adopting a mutt either - if I find a good dog with the qualities I'm looking for, that's fine... but this wasn't my original plan.
It was apparently bad to have breed-specific wishes. I shouldn't go to a shelter to find a specific breed, I should just find a sweet dog that needed a good home.
It got even worse when I said I wasn't sure if I wanted to take a dog with a vital disability (just yet), like missing a front leg. I'd love to take my dog to sports, like Schutzhund or tracking or agility. I want to do this because I think it's a fun way for both dog and owner to train, bond and excercise, but I think people misunderstood me, because they twisted it into that I didn't want to adopt a three-legged dog because it wasn't able to win trophies for me. Shit, right? I basically got bummed down after all that and even kind of felt bad for trying to find breeders. This was a couple of years ago and I got much wiser on the matter, so I don't let people get to me anymore, but it was a nasty experience all the same.
I understand that people are wary of bad breeders and they should be, because I know I am... but lumping them together with genuinely hard-working dog fanciers is simply not fair. And who knows where a shelter dog comes from? Might be dumped from the very BYB litters that the rescue groups warn against.
It grossly underestimates the amount breeds vary, not just in looks but, more importantly, in temperament, and thus in suitability to one's lifestyle.
I had someone have a go at me recently because said I specifically wanted a doberman. Her response was 'getting a dog based on looks? Seriously?'
I was gob smacked that anyone could be that ignorant, as if the ONLY thing that separates one breed from another is the visuals.
And these are people who claim to 'know dogs' too. Clearly they don't if they don't recognise the huge variations in temperament from breed to breed.
If Im brutally honest, a doberman isn't the dog I even like the look of most of all. Im actually more physically drawn to huskies, malamutes, and any 'wolf-looking' dog; something big and gray/brown and furry with pricked ears and a wolfy look.
Dobermans don't match that at all; they're smooth coated, have dropped ears and a pretty 'non natural' look to them.
If I were picking a dog based PURELY on looks, I'd get a husky.
But a husky would just not be at all right, in temperament, for my life. Not only do they tend toward an extreme prey drive (and I have cats) they are extremely high energy, and not particularly loyal to one person, nor will they 'see off' a burglar who enters the home.
For me, I was looking for a dog as primarily a companion BUT there were a few things I wanted to see in my dog. I wanted a dog big enough to be a deterrent to anyone who approached me while out walking; Im a female living in a rough area, and my boyfriend often works night shifts which leaves me alone all night. I don't want an 'attack' dog (oh, believe me, people threw that one at me too when I dared say I wanted a dog that would protect me). I just want a defense dog, that will put people off stabbing or raping me just by fact that the dog is with me.
And if the shit hits the fan and I do get attacked, I want a dog that will protect me, not just run off or stare at the guy!
I also wanted a velcro dog that would be with me all the time and really bond to me; Im at home a lot, I want a dog as my constant companion. I also wanted a dog that had a good 'work ethic' and was easy to train as I enjoy training and want to spend a long time over it.
This, coupled with wanting a short haired dog (I KNOW I wouldn't be able to cope with a big thick coat, mats and excessive shedding) a breed that is easier to have around cats, and a dog that I can take for long walks and it won't get knackered or drop dead from not being able to breathe, pointed at the dobie.
I also try and avoid breeds with excessive 'mutations'. I know they're all mutants to some degree, but I really didn't want a dog with an excessively short face, or any other harmful mutation.
Im not a fan of small dogs, and a dog has to be at least staffy sized for me, so a dobe just fit. Like you, I do LOTS of research before I get any pet, but I've been researching dobies specifically for years now. I knew I wanted one, but wasn't in the position to have one so back then, so I used that time to just educate myself to hell about the breed and really be sure on it.
Its sad when people who have put so much work and time into research, which to me shows a good owner, are dismissed by rescue nazis.
I sometimes think I'd face less hostility if I went into a community and said 'I don't know much about dogs, not sure what breed I want, but I plan to rescue' than when I say 'I've researched dobes for many years and am 100% sure this is a breed that suits me, and I plan to go to a breeder'.
It even took me a long time to settle on a breeder. I found one I thought I liked, but researched her further, putting her kennel name into forums and such, and a lot of things came to light that she did not tell me or hint at. So I cut ties with her. Found a fantastic one in the end who health tests, titles his dogs, and has been doing it for 30 years. Been to his house, had a huge long chat, he agreed a dobe was right for me, its all good.
I mean, if someone is willing to pay hundreds of pounds for a puppy, they're not the sort of person who will dump it a week later.
It exactly the same in rat communities, you always get some who refuse to even acknowledge the good work the reputable breeders do in breeding out health and temperament issues, won't even bother looking into it, they just instantly think 'breeder = immoral'.
I've had the protection issue thrown at me too, especially because of the Schutzhund interest. Now, I simply see Schutzhund as a sport, which it pretty much is - the "attack training" is highly stylized and they basically just learn to grab a guy with a huge sleeve. They don't really learn to attack people on command - simply to grab hold of a sleeved guy on a training field. I don't want a dog because I think it's fun to teach it how to destroy little children or anything. Like you, I just want it to give a good, strong bark and mostly just "look scary"... but yes, if shit hits the fan and I'm being stabbed to death, it could be very nice with a strong dog that can pin the fucker down.
The rescue folk told me that it's not a proper reason to get a dog, that I should get a burglar alarm instead (how a burglar alarm can save you from being raped on the street, I don't know). While protection isn't not my SOLE reason, and not even the main reason, I can't see anything wrong with wanting a few specific qualities for my pet.
Maybe it might have been different had I not had that experience under my belt, but I think he could tell that I knew what I was doing.
I actually do find it a little unfair when some people refuse someone a dog because they're a first time owner, because how is that ever going to change otherwise! Everyone has to start somewhere!
I did wonder about schutzhund too. There doesn't appear to be anywhere near me that does it. Well, one place, but they seem to only accept GSDs. I wouldn't be opposed to having a go at it. Like a lot of things with dogs, though, people take it all so seriously :( I went on a forum that was dicussing it, and they were so snarky and bitchy about a newbie who was just starting schutzhund, mocking her with one another about how 'crap' her dog was and how she had no idea what she was doing, it really put me off.
Same as showing. I'd never want to get 'big time' into showing. But I might one day have wanted to enter a low level dog show, for fun. But again, its SO bitchy and nasty and uninviting that I just think 'screw it'.
The club I've found is all about "let the best dog win", regardless of breed. If it can perform the task, it's allowed to compete. I've seen the performances once or twice and like what I saw, so keep looking! I have yet to see a show ring in real life, but I've grown wary of them already for the reasons you mention. Crazy dog ladies are just as freaky as the cat kind.
I feed my ferrets raw, too. If anything, it makes them smell LESS, and it certainly makes their poo smaller and less messy! Don't listen to those people, raw is without a doubt the best thing to feed ferrets. A lot of ferret people here feed raw. We gave ours kibble when we first got them as we were still settling into the whole ferret owning thing and it was easier. Now, though, they get mince, livers, kidneys, chicken wings with bones etc and they love it!
I don't know why someone would claim to be an animal lover, as I'd guess a veggie would claim, then risk their pets health by feeding it unsuitable food :/
omg thank you for touching on that. I am tired of seeing people misinforming people of that. If course it is better to have a pair, but that doesn't mean a lone rat won't survive.
Also when I worked in the pet store I heard a lot of shit about people saying they gave their 'such and such animal' a taste of bLoOd!! that made them mean and eviiilll!! Lol it was one of my favorite fairy tales. In most cases it was they switched a colony of mice to dog food, the colony got sick and started devouring the weaker ones because the person probably kept them in horrid conditions seeing as they were feeders anyway. That is the information I got from their story, anyway. Even if not 100% true, it is way more believable than them getting 'the taste of blood' and turning into satan.
I also had a couple that gave me crap for trying to send them home with a good bad of cat food for their kitten (which had to be bought for the guarantee and was given such a discount it was almost free so I don't see why it had to be such an issue). They said they found an organic food at the grocery store that was way better than 'the crap I was trying to sell them'! I went to survey said organic cat food, and what do you know, hardly any protein source.
I'm pro neuter/spay unless you're a breeder (and even that is like ugh. There are so many dogs and cats and other critters needing homes from shelters.)
I'm indifferent to cropping of ears and docking of tails, as well as dewclaw removal (especially being that they live in a rural area-- I don't want them snagging that stuff when they're in the woods). I don't care either way if my pets have it done. Our Min-Pin had a tail dock, but not an ear crop. My JRT has his tail docked. I don't find it 'mean' and when puppies get their tail docked, they'll never remember it. Like a circumcision! xD Doing it later in life seems a bit traumatic, though. I'd never take a dog personally to get it done, but our Min-Pin was purchased and my JRT was a present from my grandma who bred them for a time and had them done for sale purposes and registration with the AKC.
I don't agree with declawing cats, and I'm pro free-ranging cats. We have always let our cats roam outside until our most recent, who has an outdoor pen so she has outside access but can't get eaten by the coyotes.
Anyway, yeah. xD
With lots of animals, dogs and rats in particular, the ones tending to end up in shelters are those that were deliberately bred by BYBs for money. And they're not going to neuter any time soon as they make money off it. The responsible pet owner who knows how to keep the sexes separate and chooses not to neuter for health reasons are not the ones causing this problem.
All litters come from un-fixed animals, but not all un-fixed animals have litters.
With cats......not as straight forward. I do believe in neutering for cats, generally, because they're so much more 'uncontrolled' than dogs, and people let them roam.
Unless, you know, you are a reputable breeder or something.
Cropping ears has been illegal here for as long as I've been alive, at least. And tail docking became so a few years back (with exemptions for working dogs, so if you can prove your dog will be used to work, you can still do it). My objection to ear cropping is actually stronger, because it requires an anaesthetic (risky in any dog, particularly a puppy) and sometimes months and months of taping and 'work' to get the ears to actually stand later on. I consider that an unfair amount of trauma to put a young pup through just for cosmetic reasons.
Some pups have died from the anaesthetic from their ear crop. Some have ended up with horrible ear infections. It just doesn't seem worth the risk AT ALL, just to have a dog look a certain way. One can make the argument for a procedure if it carries benefits to the dog, but ear cropping is purely cosmetic (the bull people used to say about how it prevents ear infections has long been de-bunked: it is accepted as purely cosmetic now).
Tail docking I also hate, but it at least does not require the pup to be knocked out, and is done at a very young age.
But its still amputation of a limb, and communication tool, for human fashion. I just can't be comfortable cutting any bits off an animal just because the owner doesn't like the way it looks naturally. It just doesn't sit well with me. Its like giving a 10 year old plastic surgery to make them 'prettier'; its a whole minefield of moral issues.
Not to mention the problems tail docking can cause, like spinal issues, scarring, and infection.
Its an issue people get passionate about, and I've had some raging debates about it. But at the end of the day, I just don't like cosmetic surgery for animals.
But I do accept that, unfortunately, in some parts of the world, it can be hard to find a pup that hasn't been docked or cropped, or both :/
Declawing is just.....urgh. Thats the worst of the worst.
Most shelters around here, if you adopt an animal, will either come pre-spayed/neutered, or be given a voucher for a free or discount spay/neuter.
As for anesthesia-- well, anyone can die while under. Even people. I don't know. Like I said, /I/ personally wouldn't do it. Ear taping is pretty awful looking-- I've only seen it once and it was on a Doberman. The poor thing looked silly with a Styrofoam cup supporting his ears.
Shelters round here tend to neuter animals before they're adopted out too, or give a voucher. I would have no issues neutering a rescue animal, as if its part of the shelter's requirements, I'd respect that. My dog is gonna be from a breeder, and if male, I probably won't castrate unless there is a medical or behavioural reason to. With a bitch, Im a bit more likely to as the health benefits of spaying are significant, compared to the health benefits of castration, which are minimal and don't outweigh the risks (imo, anyway).
I've seen some sad pics of dobies with their ears taped, they just look ridiculous. Im sure a puppy wants to be out and about being a normal, active pup, not with some silly cup taped to its head! Some ear crops take months of taping and posting to stand correctly, Im always concerned about the effect this has on the mental health of a developing puppy. They're so easily moulded at that age that one bad experience can shape them for life. It worries me about putting a pup that young through that at such a vital stage in their development :(
The declaw thing is a weird one, since its not something I really even thought about prior to talking to breeders to get my dobie. My breeder is pro cropping and docking (both are illegal here now, but he has got imported dogs with cropped ears, and has in the past sent litters away to northern ireland to be docked legally) but he is really opposed to dewclaw removal.
He told me there is a bone in that claw, and removal is very painful because of how deep they have to cut in. He's one of the few dobie breeders I have seen who doesn't do the dew claws.
They can catch on things, but it is dependant on breed. Some breeds have really floppy, dangly dewclaws which are more of a catching hazard, whereas others have ones that are quite tight to their legs, so less likely to be caught.
People used to think they didn't use their dew claws, but if you see a dog with a bone or ball or anything they're chewing on, they grip with them.