What constitutes a good rat breeder?
14 years ago
I rescue. And I support breeders.
I've been rescuing animals for 8 years.
I run a rat rescue centre/sanctuary, where all but 5 rats out of the 51 residents are rescued.
Im one of only a couple of people who do rat rescue in this area.
Both my ferrets are rescued.
Both my cats are rescued.
I worked at both the RSPCA, and the Norfolk and Suffolk animal trust on a voluntary basis for several years.
Im spend the majority of my own money on rescuing animals. No-one can say I am not involved, or even heavily involved, in animal rescue.
I promote rescue animals over pet shops and BYBs constantly, and have donated money to shelters and individual rescuers many times over the years.
Im about as pro-rescue as you can get.
But I also support good, ethical, responsible breeding.
And personally, Im sick of the attitude a lot of rescuers have toward responsible breeding, which is that there is no such thing as a responsible breeder.
This is deeply offensive to the many people who work their arses off to breed out health problems and improve the welfare of their breed/species.
My past discussions with people who are anti-breeder have revealed that these opinions are based on stereotype, hearsay and ignorance, and never on actual facts.
Most of these people have, sadly, never actually met a proper, ethical breeder. The only breeders they've ever met are the kind that throw male and female together and sit back to watch the babies, and consequently money, roll in without thought to their actions or care for the animals they produce.
And if these are the only breeders you've ever met, perhaps you can't be blamed for being negative toward the idea. But so many of these people refuse to even acknowledge how vital good breeders are, or that they exist at all.
Because if someone were truely clued up on what a good breeder actually is, and does, they could not be so dismissive of them.
Below is a simple run-down of the difference between good breeders and bad breeders, and why we need to support the good ones. I run into people constantly who are not sure what being a good breeder is, or even start breeding themselves without really knowing the right way to do it.
1. Good breeders breed primarily for a love of the animal. Their aim is to improve the health, temperament and welfare of their chosen breed/species, as priority.
Some species, and some breeds, have health issues specific to them. With rats, its mammary tumours, respiratory conditions and pituitary tumours, to name just 3 from a long list.
With dogs, depending on breed, it can be anything from hip dysplasia, heart failure, skin problems, eye problems, deafness, back problems, the list goes on.
The aim of a good breeder is to work to eliminate, or lessen, these conditions. A good breeder wants to produce animals that will not suffer from these conditions, and die young as a result of them, or suffer pain and discomfort throughout their lives.
This is the first thing the 'anti-breeder' brigade don't seem to understand about ethical animal breeding.
Its is not about money; it is about the welfare of the animal. In fact, I know a few breeders, both of rats and dogs, who will even give the offspring away for free to trusted homes and friends, as their priority is not money, but good homes.
If one wants to make money, there are far easier ways of doing it than breeding animals! Anyone who has had a litter of 8 puppies running about their house, crapping every 10 minutes and chewing up your furniture will tell you it isn't a walk in the park.
Someone does not devote their time, money and life to a species or breed if they do not like, or even love, that animal.
Why would they wish to do anything that would harm that animal's welfare?
As such, good breeders will only breed from animals who are proven or shown not to carry the health issues they wish to breed out.
Breeding from a rat who got a tumour at 6 months is a fairly safe way to ensure some of the offspring will suffer similarly.
It does not take a genius to realise that breeding from healthy animals makes healthy babies, and breeding from sickly animals makes sickly babies.
The ONLY way to obliterate these conditions we see in our pet animals is by careful breeding and knowing exactly what you're breeding.
The difference between a good breeder and a bad one is that a good breeder chooses the breeding pair extremely carefully, based on that individual's health, the health of their grandparents, the health of their great grandparents and so on.
With dogs and cats, this includes health testing for some breeds, to ensure they are not carrying the things we don't want to see.
As well as health, a good breeder is concerned with temperament, as this too can be inherited.
No-one wants a dog or cat or rat that will attempt to bite your finger off.
Not only is this horrible for an owner to deal with, it is terrible for the animal as aggressive animals often end up being abandoned or sent to rescue.
Temperament is as much a concern as health to a good breeder.
A bad breeder puts male and female together, without any regard to what either might be carrying, and without even knowing the background of the breeding pair. Its not uncommon for these people to just pick a male and female animal from a pet shop, throw them together, and wait for babies. They don't health test, they don't know anything about the health of the parents, they don't even know who the grandparents or great grandparents are, let alone what they're carrying!
Some even know full well that their animal suffers a health condition, but breed from it anyway.
This results in a litter of babies brought into the world who could be ticking time bombs, and simply add to the population of sickly, short-lived animals. This is not fair to the owner, who has to watch the animal they love die young or suffer throughout its life, nor to the animal itself.
Good breeders only breed a few litters a year, they do not churn out animals like a production line, and most good breeders will have a waiting list months and often years long. I've waited 18 months for kittens from a top UK rat breeder before, and was happy to do so. Quality animals are worth waiting for.
If a rat breeder cannot show you a pedigree with your rats, showing at the very LEAST the parents, grandparents and great grandparents, be concerned. Just as you would not buy a puppy from a breeder without papers to show you what went into that puppy, do not do so with a rat.
If a rat has a pedigree, you know that breeder has been keeping records on their breeding stock, and know exactly what went in to their babies.
If there is no pedigree, or it only goes as far as the parents, be wary. A generation, in rat terms, is pretty short, so if no grandparents or great grandparents are listed, you can assume the breeder has no idea who they were.
And thats not good.
2. Good breeders have only a few litters a year, and only 3 maximum from one mum.
Be wary of any breeder that is producing 5 or 6 or 7 litters a year, this points more to someone breeding for quantity over quality.
Also avoid any breeder who has used the same mother more than two or three times, and even then, two is more ideal. A rat should only ever be used three times if she is absolutely exceptional and brings something amazing to the rat species. Think of it this way: a rat's average life span is 30 months, and they should be 5-6 months at least before having a litter, and should not be bred past the age of . They carry their babies for 22 days, then suckle and raise these babies for about 5 weeks after this. Thats about 2 months where the doe is involved in having their litter.
Most does stop being able to produce babies reliably anywhere from 10 months to a year and a half. So, you don't have that long a window in which to produce babies from a single girl.
And if you were to use that girl to make, say, 6 litters in her life, then the majority of her life is going to be spent either pregnant, or raising babies.
This is not a good life for a rat.
When raising a litter, she usually has to be seperated from her cage mates, meaning a solitary life, and raising a litter is hard on a mum's body. For a girl to spend the majority of her life either pregnant or nursing is not fair, and is akin to making a woman be continually pregnant or raising babies from the age of 15 to the age of 45.
So a doe should not be bred from too often. I'd say twice is usually enough.
Males, on the other hand, can be used more often as they obviously don't have the hassle of raising or carrying the babies! A stud male can be used up until the day he can no longer perform.
In fact, it is advised to wait til the male is at least a year of age before using him to breed.
This is because if any temperament issues are going to appear in a male rat, they tend to appear at the age of 8 months - 1 year, when the hormone surge happens.
If you breed before this time, you don't really have a true idea of your boy's temperament.
He may be lovely until those hormones hit, then turn into a bitey, cage territorial rat who hates other rats.....and you don't want to breed from a boy like this.
So it is important to wait until the boy has passed through this phase, and done so comfortably without aggression issues, before you think of using him to breed.
But be wary of someone who has used the exact same male for every single litter.
While its not unusual for good males to pop up in pedigrees regularly, or be used a lot, if a breeder only seems to own ONE stud male and use him for everything, this isn't ideal.
One male is very restricting. A male should be chosen to compliment the female, so if the female has failings in one area, you choose a male who is strong in that area to balance it. If you're using the same male, repeatedly, on different females, then it suggests the breeder is not picking rats the compliment one another, but merely whatever is easiest or most available.
3. Avoid a breeder who breeds loads of different varieties, or who doesn't know what varieties they're producing.
Good rat breeders specialise in a few specific varieties, they do not just churn out rats of any and all varieties.
In the same way you would be cautious of a dog breeder who bred german shepherds, dobermans, labradors, yorkies, poodles and chihuahuas all at once, so should you be cautious of a breeder who breeds loads of different rat types: this creates a jack of all trades, master of none situation, and is almost certainly someone breeding for money rather than to improve rats.
The good breeders I know work with 2 or 3 varieties, and thats it. The more genes you bring into your breeding, the harder it becomes to get everything right.
Its like being an artist and trying to be perfect at 10 different types of media. You don't do this; you focus on getting good at one or two, then you might introduce another new one once you've perfected the first.
Some varieties go hand in hand. You'll sometimes find breeders specialising in one variety might have the occasional rat of a different variety available as it
Anyone who tells you they breed 'blues, hairless, mink, agouti, topaz, rex, siamese, and Chocolate is almost certainly breeding for the wrong reasons.
The main aim should be breeding to improve health, temperament and longevity, not to pump out a range of pretty colours.
A breeder should know, within reason, what to expect in their litter.
By knowing the grand parents, great grandparents and so on, you know the genes that are present in the line, and know what will crop up.
A good breeder can predict what varieties there will be in their litter pretty accurately.
Sometimes you get a throw back that has popped up, but generally, any breeder who says they have no idea what varieties the litter will contain probably has no idea what genes they're working with, meaning they can't be said to be breeding for health or temperament: you can only do that if you know WHAT you're breeding into your rats. If you don't know the great grandparent's varieties were, or what they carried, then you probably don't know their health or temperament either.
4. Avoid any breeder who tries to charge more money for 'rare' varieties.
Some crappy breeders try to sucker people into paying up to twice as much for a 'rare' variety.
Don't go for this.
You frequently see hairless sold for much more than a furred rat, or dumbos sold for more than a top-ear. Anyone doing this is just trying to cater to 'fads' and isn't concerned for much else but money.
There is absolutely NO reason to charge more for one variety over another, other than the fact that gullable people will pay more, thinking they're getting something unique.
All varieties are equally easy to produce, if you know what you're breeding to what. There is no such thing as a 'rare' variety. Dumbos pop out just as much as top ears, and having a whole litter of hairless is easy as pie!
The only time a variety is actually 'rare' is when it is not a recognised variety, and doesn't fit the standard of any recognised rat colouration. In this situation, it usually IS a real variety, but just a very poor example of it, not rare or new at all.
And good breeders don't generally produce 'poor' examples of a variety, at least not reguarly.
They may produce babies that aren't 'show quality' but they're still recognisable as the variety they are. It just like how a pedigree dog breeder will have pups in the litter that aren't show quality, but still clearly the breed that they're meant to be. This is how it is with rats. If you look at a rat and have absolutely no idea what it is, and it doesn't remotely match and written standard, chances are it came from a crappy breeder.
If a breeder is breeding rats that don't match any variety, and doing so deliberately and selling them as 'rare' types, run a mile. They're not breeding rarities, they're just breeding bad examples of the variety.
I have a whole rescue full of rats that aren't good examples of their variety, and a few that I have no idea what they're meant to even be.
If you're gonna buy from a good breeder, learn about your varieties, so you're not suckered in by some made-up variety of rat which is really just a bad example of a common colour.
It happens with blues fairly often. You see people selling 'sapphire blue' rats or 'rare japanese blues'. No such thing. They're either just regular blues, or they're crappy examples of the colour.
5. Avoid certain varieties.
There are some rat varieties that are considered unethical to breed. And you should be very cautious if a breeder is deliberately breeding for these varieties, particularly in the UK.
Tailless is the main one. It is considered unethical to breed these rats here in the UK, USA opinions may differ, and they are more accepted here, but still controversial.
Tailless can suffer from heat exhaustion, as a rat's main way of losing heat is through its tail. They can also suffer spinal and hip deformities.
These problems cannot be 'bred out' as they are directly related to the lack of a tail.
I would be dubious of the ethics of anyone breeding this variety.
Also, it is not at all uncommon to see people 'docking' the tails of baby rats so they can sell them as 'rare tailless' later on.
Avoid tailless, and avoid anyone who deliberately breeds them. No ethical breeder dabbles with this variety.
Hairless are less clear cut, but still, I am wary of breeders that focus on this variety.
Hairless have a number of health problems, from skin infections to eye infections to immune system deficiencies to lacation issues.
As there is more than one gene that causes hairlessness, not all lines will have all these issues. And it becomes more complex when you realise that a double rex rat (a baby bred from a rex to rex mating) can look exactly like a hairless, and you'd only know if it was a true hairless or not by knowing its family tree.
I've owned a number of hairless rats in my life, and some lived very healthy lives and died at good ages, no different to a furred rat.
Others have clearly suffered immensely, in all the ways listed above. I've had hairless have to have eyes removed from chronic infections (and one died from the op), I've had several hairless who have had clear immune system weaknesseses. One had a regular, small, isolated abscess on his belly, the kind rats get often which heal up on their own, quickly and without issue. He died the next day, from this simple abscess. Another took weeks to heal from a simple scratch that a normal rat would be over in days.
One had heart problems from the age of 5 months, and died before his first birthday, despite a lot of treatment. One had cushings disease and awful skin problems his entire adult life.
One, however, lived to be 3 years old and died in his sleep, surviving both a tumour removal op and TWO tail amputations. He clearly had no problems healing, or any problems with lifespan! He was the oldest rat I've ever had.
The inability to lactate seems to be common in hairless females.
In the UK, the general idea was to try and breed OUT the health issues that hairless rats have, with an aim to make them as healthy as any other variety.
But recent research has suggested that the health issues some hairless can get are directly linked to the gene that causes hairlessness, so is impossible to breed out without losing the hairless look.
This is a dodgy and controversial variety for anyone to be dealing with, and few to no reputable breeders in the UK breed it, or support breeding it.
Those that do isolate themselves and do the breeding on the sly, because they don't want the abuse it will bring from the rat community as a whole, and some people are still trying to breed this variety ethically, for the right reasons (to breed out the issues, if possible) but again, attitudes toward this variety in the UK are generally negative and pessimistic regarding their ability to be healthy.
At LEAST here in the UK, please be careful of a breeder who breeds hairless. They are currently the 'fad' rat of choice, and also churned out in huge numbers for snake food.
You would have a VERY hard time finding a breeder who is ethical, as in, matches all the above points so far, and focuses on hairless.
Double rex, however, is fine. Ethical breeders do breed this variety, and double rex breeding should not be a concern.
6. Paper-work/contracts/breeder's demands
A lot of breeders sell babies with a contract.
This states several basic requirements that need to be adhered to (usually common sense things like 'the rat must see a vet if it is ill' etc) and these usually state the rat is NOT to be bred from.
Good breeders do not allow random people to buy their rats and breed them.
Good breeders are protective over their genetic lines; they've put blood, sweat and tears into them, and do not want them ruined or 'polluted' by getting mixed with any random rat the owner decides to use.
If someone has spent 10 years trying to breed out respiratory problems from their lines, they are obviously concerned that someone doesn't use these rats to breed to an inferior rat, and just un-do all those years of work.
Not all breeders actually use contracts: some don't believe they are worth the paper they're written on, and don't hold up in court. It doesn't mean someone is a bad breeder for not printing out a physical contract.
But they WILL make the same demands of you (ie, no breeding from the rat, must get vet care, etc) just in person.
A good breeder will also take back ANY rat they've bred if the rat can no longer be kept. It doesn't matter if this is a month after the rat is sold, or 2 years after: a good breeder will always take their rats back, no matter what condition they're in or what age they are.
Be wary of any breeder who doesn't state this.
This is why good breeders are not the ones contributing to rat over-population; they will not allow their rats to end up in rescues or dumped, as they give the owner an option to return it.
Again, this comes down to being protective of their lines. It would tear the heart out of a good breeder to think a rat they'd bred had ended up in rescue, the lines they'd worked so hard on.
To sum up?
Research your breeder, grill them, ask them 100 questions.
What is their motive for breeding? If the answer is anything BUT 'to improve the health, temperament and longevity of the rat species', then run away.
How many are they breeding each year, do they have pedigrees on their rats which tell you their parents, grandparents, great grandparents and so on? How many times do they breed from a single girl? What varieties are they focusing on? Will they always take the rat back if it can no longer be kept? Do they demand the rat is not bred from? Do they know what varieties they're expecting from the litter?
This is a complex issue and I've only covered some of the important things here. And while people tend to put thought into choosing a dog breeder, they don't seem to apply the same thinking to buying a rat.
But its the same thing.
If you want a breeder rat, get a good one. If anyone needs help, I can answer questions anyone might have.
I've been rescuing animals for 8 years.
I run a rat rescue centre/sanctuary, where all but 5 rats out of the 51 residents are rescued.
Im one of only a couple of people who do rat rescue in this area.
Both my ferrets are rescued.
Both my cats are rescued.
I worked at both the RSPCA, and the Norfolk and Suffolk animal trust on a voluntary basis for several years.
Im spend the majority of my own money on rescuing animals. No-one can say I am not involved, or even heavily involved, in animal rescue.
I promote rescue animals over pet shops and BYBs constantly, and have donated money to shelters and individual rescuers many times over the years.
Im about as pro-rescue as you can get.
But I also support good, ethical, responsible breeding.
And personally, Im sick of the attitude a lot of rescuers have toward responsible breeding, which is that there is no such thing as a responsible breeder.
This is deeply offensive to the many people who work their arses off to breed out health problems and improve the welfare of their breed/species.
My past discussions with people who are anti-breeder have revealed that these opinions are based on stereotype, hearsay and ignorance, and never on actual facts.
Most of these people have, sadly, never actually met a proper, ethical breeder. The only breeders they've ever met are the kind that throw male and female together and sit back to watch the babies, and consequently money, roll in without thought to their actions or care for the animals they produce.
And if these are the only breeders you've ever met, perhaps you can't be blamed for being negative toward the idea. But so many of these people refuse to even acknowledge how vital good breeders are, or that they exist at all.
Because if someone were truely clued up on what a good breeder actually is, and does, they could not be so dismissive of them.
Below is a simple run-down of the difference between good breeders and bad breeders, and why we need to support the good ones. I run into people constantly who are not sure what being a good breeder is, or even start breeding themselves without really knowing the right way to do it.
1. Good breeders breed primarily for a love of the animal. Their aim is to improve the health, temperament and welfare of their chosen breed/species, as priority.
Some species, and some breeds, have health issues specific to them. With rats, its mammary tumours, respiratory conditions and pituitary tumours, to name just 3 from a long list.
With dogs, depending on breed, it can be anything from hip dysplasia, heart failure, skin problems, eye problems, deafness, back problems, the list goes on.
The aim of a good breeder is to work to eliminate, or lessen, these conditions. A good breeder wants to produce animals that will not suffer from these conditions, and die young as a result of them, or suffer pain and discomfort throughout their lives.
This is the first thing the 'anti-breeder' brigade don't seem to understand about ethical animal breeding.
Its is not about money; it is about the welfare of the animal. In fact, I know a few breeders, both of rats and dogs, who will even give the offspring away for free to trusted homes and friends, as their priority is not money, but good homes.
If one wants to make money, there are far easier ways of doing it than breeding animals! Anyone who has had a litter of 8 puppies running about their house, crapping every 10 minutes and chewing up your furniture will tell you it isn't a walk in the park.
Someone does not devote their time, money and life to a species or breed if they do not like, or even love, that animal.
Why would they wish to do anything that would harm that animal's welfare?
As such, good breeders will only breed from animals who are proven or shown not to carry the health issues they wish to breed out.
Breeding from a rat who got a tumour at 6 months is a fairly safe way to ensure some of the offspring will suffer similarly.
It does not take a genius to realise that breeding from healthy animals makes healthy babies, and breeding from sickly animals makes sickly babies.
The ONLY way to obliterate these conditions we see in our pet animals is by careful breeding and knowing exactly what you're breeding.
The difference between a good breeder and a bad one is that a good breeder chooses the breeding pair extremely carefully, based on that individual's health, the health of their grandparents, the health of their great grandparents and so on.
With dogs and cats, this includes health testing for some breeds, to ensure they are not carrying the things we don't want to see.
As well as health, a good breeder is concerned with temperament, as this too can be inherited.
No-one wants a dog or cat or rat that will attempt to bite your finger off.
Not only is this horrible for an owner to deal with, it is terrible for the animal as aggressive animals often end up being abandoned or sent to rescue.
Temperament is as much a concern as health to a good breeder.
A bad breeder puts male and female together, without any regard to what either might be carrying, and without even knowing the background of the breeding pair. Its not uncommon for these people to just pick a male and female animal from a pet shop, throw them together, and wait for babies. They don't health test, they don't know anything about the health of the parents, they don't even know who the grandparents or great grandparents are, let alone what they're carrying!
Some even know full well that their animal suffers a health condition, but breed from it anyway.
This results in a litter of babies brought into the world who could be ticking time bombs, and simply add to the population of sickly, short-lived animals. This is not fair to the owner, who has to watch the animal they love die young or suffer throughout its life, nor to the animal itself.
Good breeders only breed a few litters a year, they do not churn out animals like a production line, and most good breeders will have a waiting list months and often years long. I've waited 18 months for kittens from a top UK rat breeder before, and was happy to do so. Quality animals are worth waiting for.
If a rat breeder cannot show you a pedigree with your rats, showing at the very LEAST the parents, grandparents and great grandparents, be concerned. Just as you would not buy a puppy from a breeder without papers to show you what went into that puppy, do not do so with a rat.
If a rat has a pedigree, you know that breeder has been keeping records on their breeding stock, and know exactly what went in to their babies.
If there is no pedigree, or it only goes as far as the parents, be wary. A generation, in rat terms, is pretty short, so if no grandparents or great grandparents are listed, you can assume the breeder has no idea who they were.
And thats not good.
2. Good breeders have only a few litters a year, and only 3 maximum from one mum.
Be wary of any breeder that is producing 5 or 6 or 7 litters a year, this points more to someone breeding for quantity over quality.
Also avoid any breeder who has used the same mother more than two or three times, and even then, two is more ideal. A rat should only ever be used three times if she is absolutely exceptional and brings something amazing to the rat species. Think of it this way: a rat's average life span is 30 months, and they should be 5-6 months at least before having a litter, and should not be bred past the age of . They carry their babies for 22 days, then suckle and raise these babies for about 5 weeks after this. Thats about 2 months where the doe is involved in having their litter.
Most does stop being able to produce babies reliably anywhere from 10 months to a year and a half. So, you don't have that long a window in which to produce babies from a single girl.
And if you were to use that girl to make, say, 6 litters in her life, then the majority of her life is going to be spent either pregnant, or raising babies.
This is not a good life for a rat.
When raising a litter, she usually has to be seperated from her cage mates, meaning a solitary life, and raising a litter is hard on a mum's body. For a girl to spend the majority of her life either pregnant or nursing is not fair, and is akin to making a woman be continually pregnant or raising babies from the age of 15 to the age of 45.
So a doe should not be bred from too often. I'd say twice is usually enough.
Males, on the other hand, can be used more often as they obviously don't have the hassle of raising or carrying the babies! A stud male can be used up until the day he can no longer perform.
In fact, it is advised to wait til the male is at least a year of age before using him to breed.
This is because if any temperament issues are going to appear in a male rat, they tend to appear at the age of 8 months - 1 year, when the hormone surge happens.
If you breed before this time, you don't really have a true idea of your boy's temperament.
He may be lovely until those hormones hit, then turn into a bitey, cage territorial rat who hates other rats.....and you don't want to breed from a boy like this.
So it is important to wait until the boy has passed through this phase, and done so comfortably without aggression issues, before you think of using him to breed.
But be wary of someone who has used the exact same male for every single litter.
While its not unusual for good males to pop up in pedigrees regularly, or be used a lot, if a breeder only seems to own ONE stud male and use him for everything, this isn't ideal.
One male is very restricting. A male should be chosen to compliment the female, so if the female has failings in one area, you choose a male who is strong in that area to balance it. If you're using the same male, repeatedly, on different females, then it suggests the breeder is not picking rats the compliment one another, but merely whatever is easiest or most available.
3. Avoid a breeder who breeds loads of different varieties, or who doesn't know what varieties they're producing.
Good rat breeders specialise in a few specific varieties, they do not just churn out rats of any and all varieties.
In the same way you would be cautious of a dog breeder who bred german shepherds, dobermans, labradors, yorkies, poodles and chihuahuas all at once, so should you be cautious of a breeder who breeds loads of different rat types: this creates a jack of all trades, master of none situation, and is almost certainly someone breeding for money rather than to improve rats.
The good breeders I know work with 2 or 3 varieties, and thats it. The more genes you bring into your breeding, the harder it becomes to get everything right.
Its like being an artist and trying to be perfect at 10 different types of media. You don't do this; you focus on getting good at one or two, then you might introduce another new one once you've perfected the first.
Some varieties go hand in hand. You'll sometimes find breeders specialising in one variety might have the occasional rat of a different variety available as it
Anyone who tells you they breed 'blues, hairless, mink, agouti, topaz, rex, siamese, and Chocolate is almost certainly breeding for the wrong reasons.
The main aim should be breeding to improve health, temperament and longevity, not to pump out a range of pretty colours.
A breeder should know, within reason, what to expect in their litter.
By knowing the grand parents, great grandparents and so on, you know the genes that are present in the line, and know what will crop up.
A good breeder can predict what varieties there will be in their litter pretty accurately.
Sometimes you get a throw back that has popped up, but generally, any breeder who says they have no idea what varieties the litter will contain probably has no idea what genes they're working with, meaning they can't be said to be breeding for health or temperament: you can only do that if you know WHAT you're breeding into your rats. If you don't know the great grandparent's varieties were, or what they carried, then you probably don't know their health or temperament either.
4. Avoid any breeder who tries to charge more money for 'rare' varieties.
Some crappy breeders try to sucker people into paying up to twice as much for a 'rare' variety.
Don't go for this.
You frequently see hairless sold for much more than a furred rat, or dumbos sold for more than a top-ear. Anyone doing this is just trying to cater to 'fads' and isn't concerned for much else but money.
There is absolutely NO reason to charge more for one variety over another, other than the fact that gullable people will pay more, thinking they're getting something unique.
All varieties are equally easy to produce, if you know what you're breeding to what. There is no such thing as a 'rare' variety. Dumbos pop out just as much as top ears, and having a whole litter of hairless is easy as pie!
The only time a variety is actually 'rare' is when it is not a recognised variety, and doesn't fit the standard of any recognised rat colouration. In this situation, it usually IS a real variety, but just a very poor example of it, not rare or new at all.
And good breeders don't generally produce 'poor' examples of a variety, at least not reguarly.
They may produce babies that aren't 'show quality' but they're still recognisable as the variety they are. It just like how a pedigree dog breeder will have pups in the litter that aren't show quality, but still clearly the breed that they're meant to be. This is how it is with rats. If you look at a rat and have absolutely no idea what it is, and it doesn't remotely match and written standard, chances are it came from a crappy breeder.
If a breeder is breeding rats that don't match any variety, and doing so deliberately and selling them as 'rare' types, run a mile. They're not breeding rarities, they're just breeding bad examples of the variety.
I have a whole rescue full of rats that aren't good examples of their variety, and a few that I have no idea what they're meant to even be.
If you're gonna buy from a good breeder, learn about your varieties, so you're not suckered in by some made-up variety of rat which is really just a bad example of a common colour.
It happens with blues fairly often. You see people selling 'sapphire blue' rats or 'rare japanese blues'. No such thing. They're either just regular blues, or they're crappy examples of the colour.
5. Avoid certain varieties.
There are some rat varieties that are considered unethical to breed. And you should be very cautious if a breeder is deliberately breeding for these varieties, particularly in the UK.
Tailless is the main one. It is considered unethical to breed these rats here in the UK, USA opinions may differ, and they are more accepted here, but still controversial.
Tailless can suffer from heat exhaustion, as a rat's main way of losing heat is through its tail. They can also suffer spinal and hip deformities.
These problems cannot be 'bred out' as they are directly related to the lack of a tail.
I would be dubious of the ethics of anyone breeding this variety.
Also, it is not at all uncommon to see people 'docking' the tails of baby rats so they can sell them as 'rare tailless' later on.
Avoid tailless, and avoid anyone who deliberately breeds them. No ethical breeder dabbles with this variety.
Hairless are less clear cut, but still, I am wary of breeders that focus on this variety.
Hairless have a number of health problems, from skin infections to eye infections to immune system deficiencies to lacation issues.
As there is more than one gene that causes hairlessness, not all lines will have all these issues. And it becomes more complex when you realise that a double rex rat (a baby bred from a rex to rex mating) can look exactly like a hairless, and you'd only know if it was a true hairless or not by knowing its family tree.
I've owned a number of hairless rats in my life, and some lived very healthy lives and died at good ages, no different to a furred rat.
Others have clearly suffered immensely, in all the ways listed above. I've had hairless have to have eyes removed from chronic infections (and one died from the op), I've had several hairless who have had clear immune system weaknesseses. One had a regular, small, isolated abscess on his belly, the kind rats get often which heal up on their own, quickly and without issue. He died the next day, from this simple abscess. Another took weeks to heal from a simple scratch that a normal rat would be over in days.
One had heart problems from the age of 5 months, and died before his first birthday, despite a lot of treatment. One had cushings disease and awful skin problems his entire adult life.
One, however, lived to be 3 years old and died in his sleep, surviving both a tumour removal op and TWO tail amputations. He clearly had no problems healing, or any problems with lifespan! He was the oldest rat I've ever had.
The inability to lactate seems to be common in hairless females.
In the UK, the general idea was to try and breed OUT the health issues that hairless rats have, with an aim to make them as healthy as any other variety.
But recent research has suggested that the health issues some hairless can get are directly linked to the gene that causes hairlessness, so is impossible to breed out without losing the hairless look.
This is a dodgy and controversial variety for anyone to be dealing with, and few to no reputable breeders in the UK breed it, or support breeding it.
Those that do isolate themselves and do the breeding on the sly, because they don't want the abuse it will bring from the rat community as a whole, and some people are still trying to breed this variety ethically, for the right reasons (to breed out the issues, if possible) but again, attitudes toward this variety in the UK are generally negative and pessimistic regarding their ability to be healthy.
At LEAST here in the UK, please be careful of a breeder who breeds hairless. They are currently the 'fad' rat of choice, and also churned out in huge numbers for snake food.
You would have a VERY hard time finding a breeder who is ethical, as in, matches all the above points so far, and focuses on hairless.
Double rex, however, is fine. Ethical breeders do breed this variety, and double rex breeding should not be a concern.
6. Paper-work/contracts/breeder's demands
A lot of breeders sell babies with a contract.
This states several basic requirements that need to be adhered to (usually common sense things like 'the rat must see a vet if it is ill' etc) and these usually state the rat is NOT to be bred from.
Good breeders do not allow random people to buy their rats and breed them.
Good breeders are protective over their genetic lines; they've put blood, sweat and tears into them, and do not want them ruined or 'polluted' by getting mixed with any random rat the owner decides to use.
If someone has spent 10 years trying to breed out respiratory problems from their lines, they are obviously concerned that someone doesn't use these rats to breed to an inferior rat, and just un-do all those years of work.
Not all breeders actually use contracts: some don't believe they are worth the paper they're written on, and don't hold up in court. It doesn't mean someone is a bad breeder for not printing out a physical contract.
But they WILL make the same demands of you (ie, no breeding from the rat, must get vet care, etc) just in person.
A good breeder will also take back ANY rat they've bred if the rat can no longer be kept. It doesn't matter if this is a month after the rat is sold, or 2 years after: a good breeder will always take their rats back, no matter what condition they're in or what age they are.
Be wary of any breeder who doesn't state this.
This is why good breeders are not the ones contributing to rat over-population; they will not allow their rats to end up in rescues or dumped, as they give the owner an option to return it.
Again, this comes down to being protective of their lines. It would tear the heart out of a good breeder to think a rat they'd bred had ended up in rescue, the lines they'd worked so hard on.
To sum up?
Research your breeder, grill them, ask them 100 questions.
What is their motive for breeding? If the answer is anything BUT 'to improve the health, temperament and longevity of the rat species', then run away.
How many are they breeding each year, do they have pedigrees on their rats which tell you their parents, grandparents, great grandparents and so on? How many times do they breed from a single girl? What varieties are they focusing on? Will they always take the rat back if it can no longer be kept? Do they demand the rat is not bred from? Do they know what varieties they're expecting from the litter?
This is a complex issue and I've only covered some of the important things here. And while people tend to put thought into choosing a dog breeder, they don't seem to apply the same thinking to buying a rat.
But its the same thing.
If you want a breeder rat, get a good one. If anyone needs help, I can answer questions anyone might have.
But if you want to breed, or you want to buy a breeder rat, you NEED to read this.
Most of this can be applied to any species, I'd add one thing though? Do not be guilted into buying an animal by claims such as "I need the money to get the parent fixed/buy a new cage to separate the females from the males" much of the time, the parent will not be fixed, the cage will remain unbrought and you will have simply given money to a backyard breeder who now knows that sob stories work.
Any legit breeder will not use such a sob story because they will have the money to see to these needs.
#3. Not always with the colors. Rats have the advantage of double and triple recessive colors, so you can get some pretty colorful litters IF you know the genetics well enough. And again, there's some breeders that can break the ideal 'rules' and do it well.
#5. I dunno, in the US there's a protocol for tailless. Either breeding only carriers, and doing x-rays on the tailless to be bred to figure out whether or not there's spinal anomalies that would be an issue, or breeding a male tailless to a female carrier of tailless. It drastically reduces the problems seen with tailless rats. On hairless, it could most likely be indiscriminate breeding, or something in various lines where they just don't thrive.
Overall a decent general guideline, but still, there's always going to be exceptions. Drill your breeders and expected to be drilled by them.
Back to back litters are unhealthy for ANY creature. Why do you think Michelle Duggar is having such health problems, it's because she's been pregnant near constantly for over 15 years. It's not healthy, in animals with a far shorter life span, asking them to have back to back litters can wreak even more harm because it's equivalent to a human having several babies at once several times over, that is not healthy.
I know what a big ordeal it was for my girl when she had her litter. She had to be away from her group, her time was not her own, and her life had to change from everything she was used to for at least 5 weeks, which is a long time for a rat!
Thats the other thing a lot of people don't realise: what is 5 weeks to us, is equivalent to a LOT longer for a rat!
Stuff like that is why I'm childfree and against reckless animal breeding, I wouldn't want to do it, why would I consider it acceptable to force it on another creature?
But would you really go to a breeder who had 30 litters a year?
I do have breeder friends who breed a fair number of litters a year, and find homes for them all. But with them, Im talking maybe 6 litters a year? Ish? I would not go to a breeder who had 20, 30 or 40 litters a year.
I find it hard to believe someone breeding that quantity is really finding quality homes for ALL of them, following up on ALL of them, and can guarantee they can take back ALL of them if need be. Thats hundreds of rats a year.
Snake food breeders and BYBs are famous for breeding huge amounts to supply 'demand'. It is not a breeder I'd go to.
I don't want a breeder who churns out animals to cater to human whims. I want a breeder who is primarily focused on breeding healthy, long lived animals of amazing temperament, and homes to pet homes. They breed for the main aim: the welfare of the rat. And they home the rats along the way to this goal. They don't breed just because 'lots of people want them'.
I did originally go into how some litters can throw up several different varieties, but I felt it too complex to go into for the purpose of this article, and didn't want to confuse people. My point still stands: if someone is breeding 15 different varieties of many unrelated types, deliberately, I would not get rats from them.
In the UK, we do not standardise or allow tailless into rat shows. They're very frowned upon, and I personally hope it remains so.
Meh. It really depends on the person. You could have carriers of doubles and triples, have some in rex coat and standard coats, then have some color-points, because it does all come together and is fairly easy to handle, because colors carry into the color points, so long as everything is solid as markings on a color point can be difficult to see if they're not dark enough. Or maybe I'm just a genetics nut who is used to rambling off about things like this...
The UK is weird about breeding and just getting weirder... The Kennel Club is pulling some weird stunts themselves. I'm happy I'm not over there. I wouldn't want to breed tailless, it's too costly to do right, but I'm not going to harp on those who have figured out a protocol.
No. Because it would seem to me that they were breeding to supply demand rather than with the aim to better health. A breeder shouldn't think 'I have 20 people asking me for rats, I'd better breed some more!' They should think 'I have 20 people interested in rats, I'll take their details and save them for when I have my next litter, even if it is 6 months or a year down the line'.
Breeders shouldn't breed just to send rats into homes: thats the nice side effect of the main aim.
They should breed to improve health and temperament and lifespan, and home rats along the way when good homes are available.
I've waited a year for a rat from one of the top UK breeders before. I was happy to, because she breeds truly exceptional rats, in both health and temperament.
As you say, its unlikely anyone in the rat world is as you describe. I've been in rats for 14 years and never met one such person.
So, given how rare this person would be, I didn't feel the need to add the small chance of their existence to this journal: it would just confuse people ;)
I don't know any UK breeders who breed without a handful of specific varieties in mind, which they focus their aims on. When you get people who don't focus on any one thing and just churn out rats of any variety, whatever looks pretty to them at the time, whatever is available, thats the problem.
It can take years to 'perfect' a variety. Trying to concentrate on 10 at once is going to create a situation where you have average examples of all of them, rather than incredible examples of two or three varieties. And I think every breeder's aim should be exceptional animals, not just 'average' or 'that'll do' animals.
I really don't think someone breeding tons of litters can really say they're all exceptional. But someone breeding 2 or 3 litters a year, and really concentrating on those ones, I would be more likely to buy this off.
I know people who breed primarily for agouti, but get topaz out of their lines, and sometimes other varieties, but their main focus is still primarily agouti. They get other varieties thrown up in the course of working with agouti, sure, but they usually know what these other varieties will be.
When you get someone just breeding whatever takes their fancy with whatever other variety takes their fancy, and have no idea what will pop out, I'd consider that indicative of other failings in their breeding too.
I, for the most part, like the UK's attitude.
Especially with rats. We're pretty resistant to mutations here, and they get accepted VERY slowly. It took the dumbo rat a LONG time to be really accepted and to no longer be controversial. It had to be proven, without a doubt, that it was not harmful to the rat before anyone would even think of encouraging it here.
Some here still don't favour dumbos or breed them, but they are generally accepted well by most, because no health issues were shown to be related to the mutation.
Hairless are not standardised by the NFRS here, and you cannot show them. In fact, you cannot even bring one into the building of an NFRS show, even as a companion rat, as this is seen as 'promoting the variety to members of the public'.
Tailless I honestly don't think will ever be accepted here, there is just too much potential for rat suffering in the variety, all just for appearance.
The only really truly accepted mutations we have here are the rex, dumbo and albino/PEW, and I know a good number of people who also think breeding rex or pink eyed rats is not particularly ethical. I even know one wonderful breeder who gave up on her PEW lines due to ethical conflict in her own mind over their eye/sight issues.
I really respect this.
I would far rather see mutations greeted with extreme caution and scepticism than see them welcomed with open arms. Maybe we're a little more purist than the USA. I personally would still love rats just as much if they were all top eared agoutis.
The problem is that rats are generally SUCH sickly, short-lived animals that we really don't want to be introducing the potential for MORE health issues just for the sake of appearance. We have to sort out the health issues in a basic bog standard rat before introducing more unusual features.
What is already here (rex and such) is already here. But we're resilient to anything new and unknown for, I think, valid reasons.
Whats up with the kennel club? (well, I could write you a list of what's up with them! But what were you referring to specifically?)
I think it's really possible for a breeder to have more than just a handful of varieties and not just be average, but they NEED to have their feet under them when it comes to genetics in order to be able to do so. Which means starting out slowly and knowing what's compatible. And it IS far harder in marked rats because....markings are tricky, especially hooded, to get right.
Oh, so they're like the Doberman Pincher Club of America then? The breed club has been talking about banning White Dobermans that are spayed/neutered RESCUES from their events because they're afraid it's going to promote them(even though their Blue and Fawn Dobies have far more health problems than most Whites). -.-
The Kennel Club is prohibiting close line breeding/inbreeding, disallowing for carriers that are unaffected to be bred(apparently they didn't learn anything from what happened with Basenjis here...AAARRRGGGG!), not allowing for litters from bitches that have had 2 previous c-sections to be registered(even though some breeders just rather c-section even if their dog doesn't need it, just to up survival chances of pups)....all sorts of weird things. It's like...if I hit the lottery tomorrow, I would establish some pretty strict genetic testing protocols in my own lines when I start, something that I don't know if any breeder does, along with a lot more, but....there's no reason not to breed a non-affected carrier to a non carrier if the dog is otherwise healthy and can contribute something to the gene pool. @.@
But that, to me, would be when that breeder would ideally produce a litter. But I don't think this kind of situation would come up many many times a year. The situation you've described sounds like a breeder that has already planned a litter, and is simply sorting out the right time to produce said litter. So a 'few litters a year', in my view, would be enough to cover this situation.
What I don't like to see is a LOT of litters a year, as I doubt a breeder would have the perfect rats, the perfect situation and the perfect waiting list more than a few times a year. Show me a breeder who claims this situation occurs 20 or 30 times a year, and I'd show you either a BYB or someone over-estimating the suitability of the situation.
I know a good amount of very reputable breeders, and none are producing litter numbers in the double digits every year.
To me, the right combination of rats, the right ages for those rats, the right number of people on a waiting list, the right time to bring a litter into the world is a precise science, a balancing act of getting all those things right at the same time. And I don't think it occurs dozens of times in a year.
I really would view someone breeding many litters a year as breeding for reasons Im not comfortable with.
I'd want to be seeing improvement, or at least not regression, in every litter. I'd want only litters with the absolute BEST conditions and situations to be born. And I just don't think that magic combination happens all the time, or enough to justify someone breeding many litters.
Also, I have to mention again.....any good breeder HAS to take back any rat that can no longer be kept, at any point in its life.
Lets say a breeder has 10 litters a year. Lets say each of those litters has 12 babies (an average, but could easily be up to 20). Thats 120 babies created in one year.
Lets then say every single owner ended up having to return their rats through unforeseen circumstances.
Thats 120 rats the breeder would have to be able to take back, and care for properly.
When you take into account that most good breeders already have a resident population of anywhere from 15 - 50 rats of their own (most breeders I know have around 30 permanent rats of their own), that would take their population, at the worst, to 170 rats.
Then they produce another 120 babies the next year.
You see my point.
Ok, its reasonable to say 'but it would never happen that ALL the owners would give them back'. No, its unlikely to happen. But it could. And any good breeder needs to be aware of it and be prepared for it. I have 51 rats, and that is an INCREDIBLY hard full time job to care for, and Im not even a breeder so I don't even have all the other hassles that go along with being a breeder, like showing.
I think a potential 170+ rats would be too much for someone to sensibly care for while also having a life and a job. And one would need a job in order to cater for that many rats.
As well as this, a good breeder needs to keep in regular contact with the owner's of their babies in order to know if their breeding is successful. Thats at least 120 people every 6 months, or more, to contact and give one on one advice and attention to.
Those numbers are just far too high for me, for so many reasons.
I just can't believe that if someone were producing 120 rats a year, that ALL those rats would be exceptional examples with top notch health and temperament and nice, long lives.
I'd rather see someone breed 2 litters a year, and be able to give much better one on one time and advice to new owners, as well as be able to comfortably take back all babies if needed, and really produce the best rats they can, than someone produce 10 litters a year.
I just don't see any reason for someone to create that many rats.
I think it's really possible for a breeder to have more than just a handful of varieties and not just be average, but they NEED to have their feet under them when it comes to genetics in order to be able to do so
Would you be concerned if someone told you they intentionally bred 16 different varieties? Not just that these varieties sometimes popped up in the odd litter, but that they were intentionally breeding FOR all those varieties with an aim to produce them in numbers. Because I would.
If one is to claim they're producing the best of the best, they need to retain some of the babies they've bred for themselves...for life.
If one seriously wants to focus on a variety, they need to retain some examples of that variety that they've bred, so they can see how the rat grows and matures and how good an example of that variety they end up being.
If they don't keep any, they never really know whether they're breeding 'good' roans, or 'good' topaz. Talking to owners on the other side of the country and getting the odd emailed pic of the rat, or description of its behaviour, is helpful but not as helpful as having the rat with you and really knowing first hand how its turned out.
So if someone is breeding 16 different varieties, thats at least 16 separate rats, each of a different variety, that they need to retain for themselves for 'quality control', assuming they only keep one (though I personally would ideally wanna keep one buck and one doe from each litter).
So we now have a breeder with a LOT of varieties to keep tabs on and retain quality on. And rather than using their space to keep a really good cross section of examples from two or three varieties, they now have cages full of only one or two individuals from a HUGE range of varieties.
And I just don't think that's as practical.
If I wanted to focus on 3 main varieties, lets say black, blue and Siamese, I'd wanna have myself 10 or so of each of those varieties, from several litters I'd bred, to give me a good over-view of how the rats were turning out, overall. I'd rather have 30 rats of three different varieties that really help me gage how well my breeding's are going than have 30 individuals of 16 different varieties which only give me a little glimpse of the success of each variety.
Oh, so they're like the Doberman Pincher Club of America then? The breed club has been talking about banning White Dobermans that are spayed/neutered RESCUES from their events because they're afraid it's going to promote them(even though their Blue and Fawn Dobies have far more health problems than most Whites)
It does sound harsh if the dogs are rescues, BUT I do also entirely see their point.
White dobes are absolutely stunning looking dogs, and I can totally see people being suckered in to wanting one based solely on the look of them.
But they really should not be bred.
The amount of temperament and health issues white dobes get vs the other colours is startling. No good dobe breeder would breed from a Z factored dog.
You only have to look at the types of breeders who do intentionally breed whites, and the prices they see fit to charge for them, to see that they are primarily a BYB dog and not a dog from an ethical breeder. They are albino, and suffer the same issues albino people suffer. They suffer sun burn and higher incidences of skin cancer, they have sensitive eyes. The gene responsible for albinism in dobes is also associated with other problems in the kidney's, liver and with blood function.
Go here and do a search for white dobermans, or Z factored dogs, and there will be a wealth of knowledge on why no-one ethical touches them with a barge pole: http://www.dobermantalk.com/forumindex.php
Again, like the rat, the dobe has a lot of health issues as it is without increasing the chances of that by breeding whites.
I do agree that fawns and blues are also a little iffy: I've rarely heard of one that doesn't have skin problems. But the whites really are in a league of their own when it comes to health and temperament issues.
So while it might sound harsh to ban even rescued whites, you really don't want a novice dobe person seeing one, thinking 'wow, I want one of those' and buying one without researching the problems this colour has. You know how many morons there are in the world when it comes to pets, so few people do correct research, and people DO just get an animal based on how it looks.
I think the kennel club kinda freaked out after a documentary was shown here called 'pedigree dogs exposed' (you might find it on youtube) It show cased some of the worst examples of pedigree dog breeding, the genetic issues a lot of these breeds have, and made no distinction between a GOOD breeder and a bad one. It just seemed to suggest that anyone who bred pedigree dogs was breeding horribly unhealthy individuals with a host of problems. And the kennel club was heavily implied to be a big part of the problem.
While the programme had some good points and was on the money with a lot of its points, it also made the general and uninformed public start a backlash against ANY pedigree dogs, like they'd been brainwashed by this show to thinking they were all bred by unethical money-grabbers, as the show implied.
The kennel club didn't come out of that show well. And since then, they really became a bit.....strange. Like they're desperate to prove they're good guys, to the extent of implementing some quite odd rules.
That show did some good and some bad. Im not sorry it was shown, but it really did make things quite difficult for the ethical pedigree dog breeders out there who health test and do things correctly.
To me, the show tried to suggest more that some of the standards of the more 'extreme' breeds should be re-written to be less extreme, which is a VERY good idea. Unfortunately, it didn't present itself very clearly and much of the general public just used it as an excuse to hate on pedigree breeders.
In actual fact, designer cross breeds from BYBs have become VERY common since that show, because people now stupidly think by getting a cross-breed, they're avoiding the problems associated with pedigree dogs when in reality, they're just getting twice the problems by crossing two separate breeds indiscriminately.
The crappy myth of 'hybrid vigour' has a lot to answer for.
It's like that dog breeder I was talking about. Thanks to the 'reputable breeders should only breed x litters a year-any more they're a puppy mill'. It's...not fair. If a person, a family works, health tests, and shows their dogs, then they're clearly not. And if they have a waiting list they can't keep up with, any dogs returned can go to people who are ok getting something that isn't a puppy.
As for varieties, if someone is sticking to oh....black based colors. You can be producing blacks, beige, and blues, which combined get platinum. Add Chocolates to the mix and you can produce buffs and sky blues. Good stock, good colors, so long as your lines aren't carrying dilute genes. Toss in agouti to the lines, you get the agouti versions. Carriers of genes are immensely helpful. -.-
As for White Dobies, actually...a friend of mine found...actually found a breeder of them who health tested more so than the general Doberman people and had far less issues in her line. My friend was shocked and liked what the breeder did with her dogs better than almost any other Dobie breeder out there. I'm sorry, but everything the DPCA has EVER said about Zfactors has not been proven to be backed up, it's all hear say from what I've seen...them and there statement has not shown ANY solid backup....I require PROOF, solid, scientific proof that it's colored linked and not maybe...poor breeding. I see plenty of accepted colored Dobies with the same issues they claim for the whites. Most which links back to poor breeding. I've seen plenty of poorly bred black and tans with temperament issues, with allergies, with health problems. They claim all this crap about blue eyes and squinting...I had an Ibizan! The ENTIRE breed has light colored eyes and all dogs squint in bright sun.
If blue eyes were such an issue....then what about Sibes? PRA is NOT linked to color. Light coated dogs prone to sunburn...gee, any thin coated light colored dog is prone...Ibizans...again. Hairless dogs are prone. And considering that almost all Blue Dobies have skin issues out the wazoo....BAD...but they're accepted. Dogs that even have a hint of blue, like one at my daycare....horrible horrible coat who often has bumps. But you know what....
I can accept that maybe they're not really of interest to be improved. That maybe it's not as big of a priority to Dobie people like keeping Zfactored dogs away from anything they do. But maybe I'm just a little sour. >.O
I'm aware of pedigreed dogs exposed. There's some fantastic counter argument links in this journal: http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/2943549/ Like, the fact that short muzzled dogs breathing issues is a soft palate one... >.>,,
And a lot of what they're doing is featured in this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?featur.....=rrWjVFKuAg8#!
Which...ok...not the best of plans. I like the database idea, I DO! I think that would be a benefit for all breeders. But I don't think it should be a requirement.....it just feels like a little too much. I also don't like what they're doing to Neos. You can have a balanced flewy Neo who can move but don't look like they're melting. Like Urania Del Castellaccio. >.>,, They went overboard. They shouldn't have reacted, they should have come out with the good points, debunked the myths about hybrid vigor(grrrrrrr! I hate that myth with a passion!), and stepped back and asked the breeders...at least the ones that care.
Honestly, you liked Pedigreed Dogs Exposed coming out? Even when they said a Rhodie's ridge was due to Spina Bifida when it's a cowlick?
We need media attention that's balanced and not propaganda......I'm going to have to do it myself, aren't I...? >.>
However, to be fair, this article was intended for the novice rat owner, or at least someone new to the world of breeder rats, to know what to be aware of and look out for.
No single ONE individual item from that list should immediately discount someone as a good breeder, except maybe the first one, but they are all things someone needs to be aware of and take into consideration. And if several of the things listed occur simultaneously, that bumps up the chance of it being a BYB even moreso.
For me, I would very likely not buy rats from someone breeding 10 or more litters a year. I just see no NEED for it, not when there are breeders producing amazing quality animals without needing to do that.
That seems like producing animals for the sake of it, not producing animals with a specific goal in mind (ie, betterment of health and such) No ethical breeder I know produces that many animals. The only people I've ever met who are breeding rats on that scale are BYBs or feeder breeders. Thats a hell of a lot of animals for one person to create, and I can't see a reason for it. God forbid there were 20 babies in each of those 10 litters - 200 animals a year to find amazing homes for, potentially? 200 animals a year to keep up to date records on the progress of? 200 owners to keep in regular contact with for potentially 3+ years?
Its just promoting quantity over quality, in my mind. 200 animals is a LOT to keep tabs on, and I honestly do feel that quality of the breeding, breeder/client relationship, home vetting and record keeping will suffer when one has 200 animals in one year. And given that rats typically live 2-3, if you produced another 200 the next year, you'd have to not only keep in contact with the first year's litter's owners, but then have another 200 rats to keep tabs on. Potentially 400 rats over two years to keep detailed records on? Sounds insane to me.
400 animals over 24 months does NOT sound like someone breeding only the best to the best and only when the timing is 100% right; it sounds like someone producing rats either for money, to supply demand, or someone who will cut corners on the aftercare and the keeping of records on the litters they've bred.
Sorry, I don't believe it is practical, nor possible for 99.9% of people.
If someone produced 200 puppies a year, would you really consider that necessary?
I also don't think its possible to consistently find 5 star homes for that amount of animals. Rat owners in general tend to be an exception in society, and the really amazing ones even less so.
I don't even know 400 rat owners, even with every single rat owner I interact with online and off, over the last 14 years, and of the ones I do know, less than half are what I'd consider top notch homes.
It MAY be possible to find actual homes for 400 rats every two years, but to find amazing homes for that many, that regularly? I don't buy it.
I just don't believe those numbers are produced PURELY because they are doing wonderful things to aid the betterment of rat health and temperament.
And DEFINITELY in the UK it would be ridiculous to produce such numbers. The homes just aren't here. I know this better than anyone; most of the rats who stay with me do so because NO-ONE is prepared to take them on. And if someone does enquire, once in a blue moon, they're not the quality of home I'd demand, or would expect a good breeder to demand.
And all the while as I can't find homes for any of the unwanted rats that come to me, more are clawing to come in.
actually found a breeder of them who health tested more so than the general Doberman people and had far less issues in her line
Im not really sure how you can say this. There are a LOT of wonderful doberman breeders who health test. Its a requirement to even be considered remotely reputable. Its the minimum someone should be doing in order to be a dobie breeder.
The ones who don't do that are really not taken seriously by anyone serious about the breed.
I wonder if you know the kennel name of your breeder who breeds supposedly healthy and superior white dobes? Because I talk to a LOT of dobie people (getting a pup in a few weeks and have spent a long time talking to breeders both here and across the pond for several years) and have a pretty good idea of what is considered 'good breeding' and what is considered 'bad breeding' in the dobie world, and do not know ANY breeder that is considered reputable or ethical and who is breeding white dogs.
I liked pedigree dogs exposed because it wasn't all bullshit. Some of it was, but some of it needed to be said.
Besides, regardless of what causes the ridge in a RR, the fact that the ones without the ridge are sometimes culled is sickening enough on its own, spina bifida didn't even need to be mentioned for me to think that was awful. Just the woman saying 'its not a ridgeback if it doesn't have a ridge!' as if to justify offing those poor pups made me want to puke.
I'd be happy to have a ridgeback without a ridge. Wouldn't bother me. Its the temperament that draws me to a breed, not its appearance. I'll never show a dog, and a RR can be just as good a pet or working dog without a ridge, so I see absolutely NO justification for killing pups that don't display one particular purely cosmetic feature, not when so many RRs are pet only where it really doesn't matter a bit.
You cannot deny that certain breeds are far too overdone these days, when compared to how they originally looked. We breed for more and more extreme features. Look at the original british bulldog compared to today's monstrosity. If pedigree dogs exposed managed to get people to back the concept of re-writing some of the breed standards to be less extreme, I think that alone justifies its existence.
It wasn't perfect, and it did have some bad repurcussions, but it wasn't without truth and merit in places too.
Doberman breeders health test for typical breed related issues that are available. It's rare that breeders health test outside of the typical issues, from what my friend made it sound like, was this breeder went past those. I'm not sure who it is, I did meet one White Doberman breeder who did at least the typical health tests in a chat long ago and was super careful with her dogs. The fact that Doberman people have issues with blues and fawns, and pick on whites when there are healthy whites that have less problems that the dilutes...it bothers me, it bothers my friend. Sorry, but with the way Doberman people act, you couldn't pay me enough to get involved with that breed. -.- Same with GSD people who can't seem to agree on *anything*.
Ridgeless Rhodies are in danger of being either confused with 'pit bulls' or 'pit bull mixes'(which is a big deal in your country), as well as being taken into dog fights by random dognappers or used as bait dogs. Without the Ridge, they really don't look like anything specific...like a Weim without the color just wouldn't really look like anything. Culling isn't the nicest thing, but when we have breed bans and dog fighters, sometimes it's the kindest option for them. Perhaps not all Rhodie breeders think of it in those terms, but some do. And it's important to consider.
People want to act like bulldog's appearance have only happened in the last 30 years or something, if you read the counter arguments, it goes back farther. It's suggested that the 'old' bulldog pictures aren't even bulldogs half the time...fact is, no one really knows. What gets me is people want to complain about Bull Terrier's head....yet they haven't had their hands on any terrier heads(especially not with the intention of feeling out the shape), especially dogs like Scotties(which have VERY impressive and interesting heads). When you feel around on their heads, it makes sense. A bull-and-terrier with emphasis on both, rather than the 'bull' in the other bull-and-terrier types. And you can find the throw back heads, you can find the exaggerated skulls, and you can find moderate dogs that still have the egg shape but don't look like they're turning into an L-which is preferred. ~Shrugs~
When you have breeders contributing time, money, and effort into canine genetic research, more often than most general 'pet' owners, and certainly far more than any who rescue...yet they get bashed all the time(an Ibizan breeder get told they were 'breedist' and all sorts of things in petsmart the other day)......the animal fancies-all of them-needs to get their shit together, stop fighting, and start figuring shit out because ALL our interests are going to be destroyed by ARs if we don't. -.-
Sorry, but with the way Doberman people act, you couldn't pay me enough to get involved with that breed. -.- Same with GSD people who can't seem to agree on *anything*
Have to agree here. I see an incredible amount of bitchiness in dobe communities. I've wanted a dobe for years, and got involved in dobe forums, mainly as a lurker, to learn. It became clear within just one day how much arguing and elitism exists with this breed..........or it could be like that with every breed, I just only see the dobe side.
Im pretty settled for my training and general care, but I needed to learn about what makes a good breeder, what they should test for etc which is the main reason I lurked. I got this information in the end, but SO much nasty to wade through first.
People posting innocent threads about their new puppy, only to have it derailed by people bitching about the breeder and how 'crap' that breeder was, and putting the fear of god into someone who just wanted to be share some puppy joy.
The one time I did ever post was on a poll about docking and cropping, where I mentioned it was illegal where I lived, and that I didn't like the practise and would never buy a cropped or docked dog, even if I had the choice.
I pretty much got chased out of the community with pitchforks......even though the poll had asked for opinions on the matter!
So I never bothered posting again, just lurked to suck up the info I needed. It was just downright nasty, and cliquey.
Ridgeless Rhodies are in danger of being either confused with 'pit bulls' or 'pit bull mixes'(which is a big deal in your country), as well as being taken into dog fights by random dognappers or used as bait dogs
Honestly, I can tell a ridgeback from right across the beach, without needing to see if it has a ridge or not.
Anyone with the slightest knowledge on dogs would be able to.
The problem in this country with the whole pit mix issue is if the owner cannot PROVE the dog is not part pit, and most mixed breed owners can't, because they don't know what went into the dog nor have any papers or pedigrees to show anyone it doesn't have pit in it.
If you bought a pedigree RR from a good breeder, even without ridge, you wouldn't really have to worry about that; if any authorities came after you claiming you had a pit mix, all you'd need to do is show them the dog's pedigree which would prove it was a RR and nothing else.
No one would have a leg to stand on with regards to that, and I've never heard of a RR being mistaken for a pit by anyone it really matters from.
Added to which, while the actions taken on supposed pit mixes here can seem silly at times, most people with enough authority to be able to take your dog from you would know what a RR looks like well enough.
The breed we have that resembles a pit most closely is the staffy, but it is not a good reason to obliterate the breed just because they look a lot like pits. Some staffy mixes can look incredibly pit-like.
Any breed can be accused of being a pit mix here, lab mixes seem to commonly get accused of this.
And any and all breeds can and do get used as bait dogs here. It doesn't matter on breed, it matters which puppies or dogs are being given away free on ad sites and have owners who don't check up on homes. Those are the dogs who end up being used as bait.
Theres been a few stories about it here recently, and all were cross breeds (and I think one was just pure lab) who just sadly had owners stupid enough to give them away for free to anyone who asked.
I don't think its a valid reason to cull perfectly healthy puppies, it sounds like an excuse to me. If the lady on PDE had really thought she were doing a good thing culling ridgeless pups, as in, thought she was preventing pit bull issues and further suffering, she would have said.
She didn't.
Do not under estimate the greed and lack of compassion in some people in the dog world.
If we were pro culling any dog that could remotely resemble a pit bull mix in the eyes of the uneducated, we'd also cull healthy boxers, american bulldogs, staffies, mastiffs, and so on.
Im sure someone with an american bulldog probably gets the whole 'pit bull' thing more than any RR owner, ridge or otherwise.
Culling generally doesn't sit well with me, if only because you cannot claim to be breeding for health and temperament if you're culling 50% of your offspring. You could have just culled the ones that were going to show you the problems in your line, or, conversely, the really good things.
Even if the bulldog's appearance has been being shaped for longer than people think, its still unacceptable for any dog to be bred to look that way, no matter how long its been happening. I don't think the british bulldog as we know it now could actually do the job it was intended for anymore. This breed has so many health issues directly related to the way it looks, I don't need to list them.
And thats just one breed. There are a lot of others who also need some serious work.
But people resist it, because if you change it, it 'isn't a bulldog anymore'. Of course it is, its just changing, as dog breeds tend to over time. And if that change results in a better life for that breed, then its a no brainer.
animal fancies-all of them-needs to get their shit together, stop fighting, and start figuring shit out because ALL our interests are going to be destroyed by ARs if we don't. -.-
This statement makes me uneasy.
I am not an AR person, Im an animal welfare person. Some aspects of AR, to me, seem over the top and unnecessary. BUT.....in my experience, people throw the term 'animal rights nutter!!!!' at someone far too easily, usually without even knowing what AR is.
I can't even remember how many times I've been called an 'animal rights nutter tree hugging hippy' by people who oppose my anti cropping and docking stance. It seems to be the only retort they have. I don't even have to really say anything other than 'I oppose cropping and docking' for someone to label me, without knowing anything else about me.
Its just a knee jerk reaction based on very little actual info about what I, or AR, believe in.
So whenever someone starts claiming 'damn animal rights!!!' when it comes to something they're doing to their animal, it makes me edgy because overwhelmingly in the past, the people who have said this to me have been people who are just pissed at not being able to do something unacceptable to their animal any more.
I've been called AR for opposing keeping birds in small cages, for opposing feeding live rats to snakes, for opposing declawing, a whole LIST of things which, to me, are nothing to do with AR and more down to just being humane.
The only time I'll ever accept someone calling AR on me is on my position on any and all animal testing. I can see how that falls under AR, fair enough.
But most of the time? I rarely have someone throw AR at me for valid reasons. The tail docking ban here was attributed to AR by bitter breeders and pet owners who could no longer cut bits off their pets. But it was nothing to do with that, there was no AR protests who eventually beat everyone down and made the legislation change. The decision was made on the advice of vets ( The Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons, British Veterinary Association, the British Small Animal Veterinary Association and the RSPCA) not hippies with placards.
But its just easy to label everyone as an AR nutter, because then one doesn't have to actually look at the real reasons someone might oppose something they do, it allows people to remain blinkered and just dismiss others with 'Bah, stupid AR people!' and move on.
In fact, if we wanna get picky, an AR advocate would not want us to have pets of any kind, at all, ever. They'd want the complete abolition of all domestic animals.
An animal welfarist, however, would support the idea of pets, but want their welfare to be paramount and strive for them to have better lives and be protected from abuse.
I fall into the latter category. I have no problems with pets, I have no problems with pedigree dogs (hell, Im getting one!) but I do have problems with the things we do to these animals for purely cosmetic or 'traditional' reasons.
It is perfectly fine to be proud of one's breed, and protective toward it, but that should NOT take precedent over the welfare of that actual animal. If one becomes blind to the suffering experienced by a breed en masse, blinkered by their own devotion to tradition', thats a problem.
I love dobes, but if there were a serious health problem this breed suffered that was directly related to its physical appearance, I would support changing the look of the dobe to avoid this problem.
Others would scream 'no! Then it wouldn't be a dobe!' but what the hell? Seriously? We want these animals primarily as companions or working dogs. If a dog can still be an excellent companion or still do the job is was meant for, even with a few tweaks to its appearance to make its welfare better, why would a sensible person not support that? I don't care what my dog looks like, to be brutally honest, I care how good of a companion he will be. And that's not based on how he looks.
The dobe personality and temperament is what drew me to that breed, not its appearance (if Im honest, Im more a fan of wolfy looking dogs, big hairy buggers with pricked ears, never thought I'd go for a lean, short haired dropped ear breed!)
A lot of show dogs can't do the job they were meant for anyway any more.
I dunno, its just a VERY fine line between having a dog look a certain way, and having its welfare compromised for that look. And with some breeds, we've crossed over that line, and need to go back, even if it pisses of 'traditionalists'. And it doesn't make me an AR nutter for thinking that, it just makes me a dog lover who doesn't like to see unnecessary suffering, especially for something as shallow as appearance.
These animals came to be with us primarily as companions and workers, and as long as a dog can fulfill those criteria still, thats the only concern I have. Of course keeping the 'look' of a breed has importance, but not if it comes at the cost of that breed's welfare.
It's unfortunately very risky, regardless. Animal control and cops do not know how to recognize over 450 different breeds. It is.....very sad, and I've seen it first hand. Again, it's not going to be every breeder's reason for culling ridgeless pups, but it is known to be for some. Whose to say with a documentary like that, they picked the least articulate person on purpose...that seemed to be their goal.
The thing about the bulldog...if they've had the vague...shape...way back before we had all this awesome veterinary medicine. Of course taking into account dogs didn't live as long either...but they were able to whelp. .....You didn't watch the video for a healthy future, did you? They're lessening the nose rolls and doing a couple of other things to improve the breed. But they still look like the bulldog we have today to the general eye.
In fact, if we wanna get picky, an AR advocate would not want us to have pets of any kind, at all, ever.
That's what I'm getting at. The fighting needs to stop, and we need to be able to talk and take some damn criticism and actually figure out what we *absolutely* have to change and what can be left. In husbandry practices, in protocols to prevent issues, we need to be able to support each other. It doesn't matter what species or breed you're in, we need to knock the shit off and come together, because right now....
Here in the states, we were/are(haven't heard anything for a couple of weeks now) facing the PUPS bill, which is disguised under the term, Anti-Puppy Mill legislation. It's actually pro-puppy mill because its goal is to get rid of the responsible breeders in a round about way. If you have ONE bitch, and/or you *sell* x number of puppies a year(which means breeders are at risk if they take back dogs and rehome them, there's no clause for co-ownerships or what it means if a bitch you co-own whelps, the number is like...20 pups), you have to be breeding and have dogs in concrete kennels. Period. No more home whelping, or raising puppies underfoot. If you have a large breed and accidentally whelp 24 puppies like one English Foxhound bitch did. You better have the money to put in some kennels.
This is pushed by HSUS. (I'm NOT getting into cropping and docking, you and I will NOT agree, nor am I saying you are an AR)
We had a Boa and Python ban(of vague sorts which no one knows what it means yet) implemented. Because of the 'pythons in the everglades and fear of irresponsible owners'. Here's the thing...the everglade snakes...it was Hurricane Andrew's fault. There's been DNA testing, a reptile breeder/importer/whatever got hit by the storm and snakes got loose. But we get to suffer because of a storm and lack of education that it WAS the storm. That was pushed by HSUS.
And this is just two things compared to the things they're trying to push. The different animal fancies are getting hit. But all the breeders are fighting amongst each other(especially in the popular breeds of dogs...and I don't think I want to know about cat people). Each group is vulnerable and being targeted by themselves. It makes us easier to target and take down one by one. And with bullshit name disguises on laws now...hardly any one knows what's what. -.- Basically....we need to stop nitpicking about lines and crap, buck up and figure out what the real issues with our animals are(if there's any) and fight the real threat to our fancies....fish, cat, dog, exotic, rat, whatever.
What an absolute crock of shit.
In the home is the ONLY way to raise puppies! I'd be wary of any breeder who didn't! Puppies need to grow up around household noises, people coming and going, etc What is the purpose of preventing home whelping and sticking dogs in kennels instead? How is that fighting puppy mills, when puppy mills don't raise their dogs indoors anyway and tend to put them in outside kennels?!
I honestly would not want to buy a dobe pup off someone who kenneled it outside. My breeder keeps his litters and mum in his living room, so they're well used to the cat, the telephone ringing, the TV, the hoover, etc. and they become confident, well rounded pups as a result.
I know there's two sides to every story, and there MUST be something about the PUPS bill that makes sense, but from what you've said, I can't see it.
Once again, as with anything in life, stupid people ruin it for the rest of us. Stupid people can't do something responsibly, so they take it away from everyone. Its the same as the pot laws here; pot is perfectly safe when used sensibly, and far less damaging than alcohol.
But because some twat somewhere is gonna insist on doing something stupid while high, its banned for everyone else.
Its really annoying. I sometimes wish I was a stupid person, life would be so much easier.
Someone *could* have fancy, uber awesome, super duper kennels where it does make sense, in animal husbandry practices, to raise pups in kennels because of the ability to thoroughly sanitize, and practically LIVE out there with the pups-which is what I would do personally(but most breeders don't have the money for something like that). But yes, pups need to be socialized and around a home environment, even if that means bringing them into the house during the days and keeping people out of the house who make track in things like parvo. No one visits!
Apparently the limit is actually higher(unless if it got changed recently, I'm reading the 2011 stuff, and constant changes is what these people are good at, make you think you're passing one thing and not what they actually push through), at 50, but still, lots of breeders keep dogs on co-ownerships and it doesn't even touch that issue. Co-owning 3 bitches? Not written by dog people at all clearly and it leaves a lot up to interpretation. The good point of the bill...is that dogs must be able to get out into a full run for muscle development. But that has a dark side, no treadmills, no walking on or off leash, rain or shine. -.-',,
What makes me sigh is they ban something mild like pot and then get up in arms when a dangerous synthetic comes out. -.-
I agree, life would be much easier if we were stupid. Especially when you feel like the world is falling apart and we're going the way of New World Order or something. >.O
Anyway, by all accounts she was a pretty damn responsible breeder and had nothing but her dogs' well-being in mind. When she gave us the second dog, she even made sure to tell us the pedigree on her so that we knew to get our first beagle fixed due to them being too closely related. I wish there was more focus on people like her, so that people knew to give her their business, rather than the pet stores and backyard breeders.
You really have to research what is accepted as ethical breeding, often for months or years, before someone can get a handle on it.
I see a lot of rat people thinking someone is ethical because 'their rats all looked well loved and healthy, and she found good homes for them all'. And that always makes my heart sink a little.
Someone who loves their animals and looks after them well and keeps them healthy is a good pet owner, but not necessarily a good breeder.
Its so hard to get across to some people, particularly novice rat owners, that it is SO much more than that. Its about improving the rat species. There are so many sickly and bad tempered rats in rescue homes being euthanised every day that we really need to ensure we're not adding to that when we breed.
I've known rats from really lovely people, great pet owners, well looked after animals, but their breeding is abysmal. They think that just by looking at a rat, they can tell it is 'healthy'. You can't. A vet can't (thats another one that makes me fume: 'the vet has checked him over, he says he's healthy!!')
Well, yeah, he might be healthy now. But what about a month's time, 6 months time?
Things like cancer don't make themselves known until they appear, by which time someone may have already bred that rat. Only by having records on the rest of the rats in the family can we know better what is carried in the genes.
I do wish more people would look at truely good breeders, dog or rat, before dismissing all breeders as nothing more than BYBs. A truely ethical and good breeder is an amazing person, putting amazing work into their animals, and nothing like a BYB :(
I want to become a reputable breeder and I need to know all this info. I want to focus on Rex and Double Rex. Sure, dumbos are great, but Ive always been a fan of top ears myself. I am unsure at the moment what colors/markings Id like to work with. I love so many of them. Agouti would probably be a big one for me. Someone told me the other day they would buy from me if I bred manx, but I never wanted to breed manx in the first place and told them sorry, but I wouldn't breed manx. I then told them WHY rats needed their tails. I don't care about the 'creeped out' factor some people have over rat tails. If you want a rat so bad, get over it.
I know it's going to take YEARS of hard work and research before I can even think about myself starting to become a reputable breeder, but I hope to get there one day.
As it stands right now I don't charge much for any of the rat I adopt out. I even do 'buy one and ill let you have another of the same sex free' because one thing I cannot stand at all is a rat going anywhere without a cagemate. I make sure people know where I got the mom and dad and I even let them see them. If they have never owned a rat before I let them meet rats before they adopt any so they can decide if a rat is right for them. I also let everyone know if for any reason they cannot keep a rat they have gotten from me to simply bring it back. Yeah, making money breeding rats would be nice I admit, but I have to buy more cages, food, water bottles, take sick ones to the vet and really Id be paying more for them than I'd be getting from selling them and I don't mind at all.
If one is truly committed to learning all they can and doing it right, they'll probably end up as great breeders! Its the ones who don't bother to learn that are the problem.
One of my best friends is a breeder, and adores top eared agoutis, and this is what she primarily breeds.
If I were going to breed rats, I'd breed agoutis, or blacks.
when i went to my first breeder to get rats, i did ask 100's of question like why you breeding, how many a year and how many times for each rat etc.
I do personally want to breed rats in the future and i wouldn't mind people bombarding me with questions as id also keep to these guide lines form breeds point of view, such as i only want to breed to better the health and temperament of them, and not just for money.
I do plan on breeding rexs and minks, and maybe roan, so not loads of breeds and I'll only breed twice from each chosen female and not in demand of public, they'd have to wait if they wanted rats from me.
if i came across a breeder that was not up to the standards you have said, even just one i wouldn't buy tell them and i'd then spread the word on who and why they shouldn't buy from them.
We've seen that already in this very discussion: Karja thinks its acceptable to have a lot of litters a year, but I don't.
Karja would be happy to have rats from someone who bred 10+ litters a year, presumably. I would not.
What is actually 'ethical' cannot be defined by one person.
I put this up as a guide, and it describes what I personally, and what the rat community in general, define as an ethical breeder. But ethics are so personal, and your definition of ethical may be very different to mine.
I don't want anyone to blindly follow me, more that I want people to take in these points and consider what THEY think about them, and form their own opinions, or research the issues themselves.
It may be that someone has no issue with a breeder breeding tons of different varieties, or no issue with a breeder charging more for one variety than the other, only they can decide that.
But at the very least they should use these points as topics they should try to learn more on themselves in order to make up their own mind :)
yeah, i have seen that alot of people have very different opinions on this matter. even my closest friends have different ethical opinions on breeding rats, she'd happy breed a rat slightly more than what i would and breed a certain type that i personally wouldn't touch (hairless rat), but i wouldn't tell her she wrong and tell her how she should breed them, because its her discussion in the matter.
If they always have babby/young rats available it means they're always breeding and to not have a waiting list means they're NOT selling every pup. (Or they are -- just, not to responsible owners.)
Look for a rat breeder who has requirements for you-the-owner to meet.
So, question 1: How long is your waiting list?
If the answer is "What waiting list?" look elsewhere.
My close friend breeds rats, is one of the better known and respected rat breeders in the UK, and doesn't always have a waiting list. Sometimes she has some people she knows will be wanting babies, but other times, not all the rats in the litter are spoken for.
But she has been breeding for many years, and she knows she will not have trouble placing them in good homes, and to my knowledge, she never has, even without a waiting list.
To be honest, waiting lists can often be pretty useless, and I know a number of reputable breeders who no longer use them. It certainly isn't a required thing in order to be considered reputable, at least not here.
A large number of people pull out of waiting lists at the last minute, or demand a specific gender when you don't have it, or want a certain ear-set/variety and you end up with only one of those and 6 people who want it, or you plan a litter and the doe doesn't take or stillbirths, or only has one baby, the situations go on and on, which I think is why people sometimes just avoid them altogether.
Most breeders will at least know the average amount of interest in a litter from them, but they may not take an actual physical list of people and what they want. And I don't consider this a bad breeder. I have, and will again, bought babies from a breeder who doesn't have a rigid waiting list. And I've also bought from breeders who have waiting lists of over 18 months. Both work for me.
And I never said it was the only sign you should look for, I said it was a good sign. And it still is!
You have to admit while not all good breeders use waiting lists, bad over-breeders who sell overflow to pet stores and as feeders will almost never have one. (It's likely they won't understand why a waiting list would even be necessary.)
To be honest, I was very impressed with the way she handles her stuff and I'm pretty excited to be getting a pair of rats from her. It seems she does breed often- but it doesn't seem the same lines and some of it is, as I said, to strengthen her own lines instead of keeping them available. Also have their pedigrees available- and you do enter a no breeding contract. As well as an agreement that it's a single gender rat home so that breeding does not occur. :3 She also offers help and information the life span of the animal instead of disappearing after the sale.
I can't stand people who breed to breed- not for a love of and a want to better the breed. Just like when I go to look for a dog- I'm not looking for someone who's doing it for money or just to push puppies- I want someone who's going to offer a wonderful animal who's going to live up to my expectations as a companion. Animals are family too... and honestly- if someone is breeding a billion animals a year and litter after litter- there will be NO WAY the animal is going to get the attention it needs to be successful when it goes to a family.
Have to say I've never heard the 'only selling babies to single gender homes' thing before. I see the logic in it (accidents happen!) but I've never known a breeder to have that requirement before.
It would certainly count me out of ever having babies from her, as I keep both genders ;) I think it could potentially keep away a lot of good rat homes, since most people I know who are wacko obsessed with their rats tend to want to experience both genders and have groups of each (not all, obviously, but a good number).
But I can't really fault it, it would prevent unwanted oops litters, for sure. But it would mean someone like me would never be considered to have a rat off her :P
I think she's just trying her best to keep her kids from breeding out... I know my future holds both genders once my hubby and I get our own place, so I see it being silly cause both genders do have their ups and downs. Given I'm pretty partial to all the girls I get... especially my little Dulcie, since we're both getting pretty attached to each other.
AND YOU NOT BEING ABLE TO WOULD BE A CRIME- you'd give quite possibly the best of homes. :3
Breeders, in general, are quite reasonable with their requests, I always think.
Rescues, though, now that can be a whole other kettle of fish, and some rescues are ridiculously strict on their adoption policies!
It's almost like they're trying to discourage you from getting a rescue. :| ... ... as I had to type this twice as my little cream colored ratty, Coco, totally just deleted everything. :|
I do understand that rescues have to be thorough, Im the same. I never adopt out a rat to anyone unless Im 100% comfortable with them, and I do ask a lot of questions and make them fill out a questionairre.
But theres being thorough, then theres just being unreasonable.
For example, someone I know of was refused a rabbit from a rescue centre because she worked.
She lived at home with her mum, who was retired and home all day. The mum had owned rabbits all her life, and was very willing to spend time with the rabbit while the daughter was at work. They had a huge grassy fenced garden, lots of rabbit experience and were pretty much the perfect home.
But despite this, they were refused due to the daughter having a full time job....even though there would still be a rabbit lover at home all day! But because it was the daughter that had made the enquiry, they only judged on what HER schedule was, and didn't take into account anyone else in the house.
Some people have been refused dogs under the grounds of 'working full time'. However, many of these people had partners who worked full time also, BUT their rotas were opposing, so even though both worked full time, there was always one of them at home at all times and the dog would never be left alone. But because the rescue ONLY judged by the 'tick boxes' on the application form, and saw they both worked 'full time' they were denied. The rescue did not allow for explanation of how someone was still home at all times. They just saw 'full time' on the tick box and rejected them.
Someone else was refused a dog because she was in a long term relationship, which the rescue said 'implies planning a family and children' and they weren't comfortable homing a dog to someone who MIGHT have kids one day.
A friend of mine was refused 2 rats from the RSPCA because she planned to keep them in a 'Freddy' cage (a popular rat cage, ideal size for a pair of rats, commonly used by rat keepers, decent cages, I have 2) which the RSPCA claimed was not big enough. They wanted her to get this enormous ferret cage, which was far larger than two old fart buck rats who never move could ever possibly need.
They were rejected.
The rats continued languishing at the RSPCA in........you guessed it, a cage far smaller than a freddy.
They wouldn't let the rats go to someone because they claimed the cage was too small, but they were perfectly happy to let the rats go back to the RSPCA and continue living in a cage far smaller?!
I could go on, there are so many ridiculous stories from people who have been rejected for a rescue animal on completely nonsensical grounds. Its tragic. There are so many animals who need homes, and good owners are refused on pathetic grounds.
No wonder rescues keep complaining about being 'full to bursting'; they never let any fucker actually adopt an animal!
Also... wtf on the family thing. You know... if the dog was not good with kids and they actually ASKED if she was going to have a family in the future- that's one thing. But automatically assuming? That's asinine. Dogs can get along wonderfully with kids- most animals can. It's all just a matter of how the owner introduces and gets both parties ready- and the fact that it was just a long term relationship and not beyond that... HOLY. CRAP. D:
...I just looked up the Freddy cage and that looks like a TON of room for two rats! That's basically what I have my girls in now, with an extra level. D: ((I'm upgrading to a 4 story soon, though... but I have 2 more moving in as well.)) ... God damn is that ridiculous- especially since I see a lot of places that aren't private rescues leaving them in things like 10 gallon glass tanks. :| Those cages look like nothing but fun for two- how in the Hell. D:
It's so damned sad- I understand that they want these animals to go to "the perfect forever home" but you need to actually get the full stories with these people. Not turn them away for piss poor reasons. It absolutely blows my mind when I hear stuff like this... it makes a small amount of sense because the fosters get to know and love the animal- but it's fostering... you have to be willing to learn about the people and let them go to where they'll blossom. Not what a checklist says is okay. :|
She didn't charge more for any 'type' of rat, but she did charge more if the rats were going to breeders instead of just pet homes. Which is totally fine by me, I don't mind paying more. I told her my full intentions and she gave me some tips and seemed very helpful. Her only other request was that I not adopt out any offspring coming from her line to breeders for atleast 4 generations and I am more than happy to honor her wishes.
She's a state away from me. I had to arrange transport with a friend of mine who lives in the same state as she does, but in my opinion if she's as good a breeder as I think she is, or as she is starting out to be it will be well worth the extra effort. =)
One of the benefits of the UK being so small, I guess.
But I don't even have the first clue about who is considered good in the US!
She sounds ok from what you've said. The only thing that would make me a teeny bit cautious would be the fact that she's just starting out. If I were to begin my own breeding line, I'd probably want my foundation stock from someone who already has an established and proven line and has been doing it for a while longer. If she is only just starting her own line, she can't really know at this early stage what problems are in that line, that all becomes apparent with time.
And f you're starting your own line, you don't want to start out with unknowns, you'd want to start out with rats that at least have a bit of history behind them.
BUT...having said that, someone just starting out doesn't instantly dismiss this person as a decent breeder with good rats. Anyone starting out breeding seriously should have a mentor, ie, another more experienced breeder who advises them, and in lots of cases, provides their foundation stock for them from their own proven, good lines. So she may well have a mentor of her own who helps her out and provides her with quality, proven rats, which would be fine.
Without talking to someone first hand, its VERY hard to know. But she sounds good in all other ways, and she was at least honest with you about being a beginner. Everyone has to start somewhere.
Maybe quiz her on any known problems within the lines, or quiz her on where she got her foundation stock from? If she doesn't know much about the lines, I'd be a little cautious. But thats just me. It could be she knows exactly what needs improving in her rats, and is working to do this, which would be no issue at all.
Its when people start out without help from a more experienced breeder, and source their foundation stock from iffy places (pet shops and such) that you need to be careful.