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about dobes and cropping/docking
13 years ago
Ok, as I have a doberman pup, I want to clear up this docking and cropping issue, since it seems that I can't mention the pup's breed ANYWHERE online (except maybe a very isolated UK only forum) without someone bringing it up.
I really don't want to have to constantly argue this issue, nor do I want regular comments left on pics of him which ask 'why isn't he cropped/docked' or even the one I see often on natural dobes 'shame about the ears/tail'.
So....these are the facts, and my whole view on this thing, so hopefully I won't have to deal with too much trouble relating to this issue.
It is important to realise the most important point here: cropping of ears and docking of tails is ILLEGAL in the UK. I couldn't do it to my pup even if I wanted to.
If you want a dobe with a docked tail here, you have to either import an already docked dog from a country where it is permitted, or find a breeder who whelps the litter outside of the UK.
Some breeders send the bitch to Northern Ireland to welp, as they can still legally dock the tail there.
Or, you could rescue an older dobe that was docked prior to the ban, which I believe came in in 2006.
There is an exemption in the UK for 'working dogs'. If you can prove that the pup is going to be used for working, they can make an exception and you may still be able to dock.
But this primarily goes along with gundog breeds, who are still used for their original purpose fairly often here. A dobe would be a much harder breed to prove 'working status' of.
It is rare to see any puppy with a docked tail in the UK now. I've not seen one for years now, so even the number of exempt 'working dogs' is low.
Thats it. There is no other legal way to get a docked dog.
If you have one, you'll also probably wish you didn't: you WILL get stopped in the street and quizzed on why your puppy is docked, as well as probably getting a lot of evil looks from those who don't stop to ask.
As for ear cropping, that is also illegal here, and has been for a loooooong time, at least since I've been alive.
Its not an issue here. Virtually no-one owns a cropped dog, of any breed (if they do, it will have been imported), and most people in the UK will never have seen one.
Most won't even know what ear cropping is or that such a thing is done. Most average UK folk would look at you with disgust if you told them there is a practise where a puppies ears are cut, then taped to make them stand upright. Its just not recognised here. A dobe with cropped ears here would have people constantly asking you what breed it was.
Despite me informing people of the laws here, people still see fit to argue the toss with me about how it 'should' be done, and the laws are stupid, usually for the following reasons.
1. But an undocked/uncropped dobe doesn't look like a dobe!
It does here. It might be an issue in the USA, but here, a natural dobe is the dobe we know.
Some people here still recognise the docked tail as a dobe thing, as the ban only came into effect here a few years back.
But a dobe with cropped ears in the UK would likely be thought of as a cross-breed by the average member of the public, as we do not associate the dobe with pointed ears: they're a dropped eared breed here.
I know that before I learned about ear cropping, I'd seen cropped dobes online and just assumed they were cross-breeds, as I didn't think there was any way to get a floppy eared dog's ears to stand.
In fact, my breeder owns a cropped dog, imported, and when he took it to the vet, they weren't even sure what breed he was, because its that alien to us.
2. The 'natural dobe' isn't what Mr. Dobermann intended when he created the breed!
He also created a dog that was black and tan, not red, blue, fawn, or white. And yet people who are pro-cropping still own red dobes, or any of the other colours. If one is so concerned with what Mr. Dobermann wanted for the breed, they would only own black and tan dogs.
The first original dobe pics show a dog with very short cropped ears, of the 'military' style of crop.
Yet most dobes that are cropped are done with the longer 'pet' or 'show' crop, again, not what Mr Dobermann probably intended either!
Added to which, look at the photos of the first original dobes compared to the dobes of today: they didn't look exactly like they look now. We have refined and altered this breed in several ways since it first appeared on the scene.
One either has to be a purist, and stick only to what mr Dobermann intended, which would be strictly only a black and tan dog with a military crop, or one has to just get over it and accept that the dog is a different dog now and stop using this excuse to justify cropping and docking.
It funny how people ignore other features that Herr Dobermann intended, but become purist when it comes to the ears and tail.
3. Cropping and docking are for health reasons!
Not so.
There was a time when people thought cropping the ears resulted in less ear infections, but this has been de-bunked, and fortunately, few people still use this argument, even the fiercest pro-cropper, because it holds so little water.
In fact, it has been suggested that cropping the ears of a naturally dropped-eared breed actually increases the chances of ear infections as it creates an open ear, but without any of the protective hair that usually accompanies naturally pricked-ear breeds.
As for the tail, it is claimed that dogs with tails left in tact will eventually break or damage the tail, and it is removed to prevent this damage.
But this is also not proven.
And in fact, some of the breeds that most commonly DO suffer from tail injuries are NOT breeds that are typically required to be docked anyway!
There is no docking requirement for any sight-hound, or dalmatians, or a number of other breeds with thin tails. If this were done purely for health reasons, wouldn't these breeds be docked too?
I saw a number of greyhounds with 'happy tail' when I worked at the vets, but no-one proposes docking this breed. Kinda puts the 'its purely to prevent injury' argument out of the picture.
If this were the case, and docking was purely for the welfare of the dog, we'd have other breeds being routinely docked, with greyhounds topping that list.
We don't.
These days, cropping and docking, particularly on dobes, are just for appearance, no other reason.
Dobes were originally cropped and docked, allegedly, to make it harder for an intruder to 'grab hold of a tail or ears' when fighting against the dog.
This may or may not have been true, though to be honest, if a fully grown dobe was racing for me, I wouldn't be trying to grab around its head or rear end, I'd be retreating, quickly.
Most dobes these days are pets or show dogs, and not called upon to do the job they were originally bred for, making these procedures even less relevent.
Some say it was done to make the dog look more alert, which I can buy, as it possibly does. But if one's dobe is a pet only, who cares how 'alert' it looks? And I know there is no mistake with how alert Dresden looks when I have treats to hand, even with his floppy ears!
4. Cropping and docking are not risky or painful for a dog, so what is the issue even if it is just for looks?
I do not agree.
Even if the pain and distress is minimal, why put a pup through this when it isn't necessary?
I actually have less of a concern about tail docking than I do about ear cropping. While I still don't agree with either of them, tail docking at least, if done via banding, is performed on a very young pup, does not require anaesthetic, and is completed relatively quickly.
Ear cropping, however, not only requires an anaesthetic, but weeks of posting and taping of the ears (the longer show crops can take months of this in order to stand properly).
Any anaesthetic on an animal carries a risk. On a young pup, this risk is even bigger.
I have read tragic stories on doberman forums where a couple of pups have actually died while under the anaesthetic for their ear crop.
I've read even more stories about pups who have had infection problems in the ears following the op, or problems where the ears never stood, leaving the dog with permanently mangled ears.
I do not know why anyone would take this risk with their pup, for nothing more than cosmetic reasons.
As responsible pet owners, it is our job to limit the risks to our pets as much as possible.
Ear cropping, to me, seems to be putting a pup at risk for no good reason. Cosmetic reasons are not good reasons, as far as Im concerned.
Others would disagree and consider that having their dog look a certain way is worth the risk to said dog.
I don't know that the dog would agree, and I certainly wouldn't want someone making a decision like that on my behalf, and putting me through an operation just because they didn't like the way I looked naturally.
How about if I wanted to have surgery on the ears of my dumbo rats to make them look top-eared, would that be acceptable? Likely not. I don't see why it is with dogs, other than for purposes of 'tradition' and human vanity. Neither seem important enough, to me, to risk the welfare of my dog.
Not to mention the taping and posting process, which seems pretty intrusive to a young pup, who should be focused on playing, learning and being socialised. I am concerned about the effect such an invasive procedure has on a pup at that impressionable age.
5. If a dobe is not cropped and docked, it has far less chance of ever being adopted if it ends up in rescue in the USA.
Sadly, Im not doubting that this is the case.
But to use this as justification for cropping and docking your own pup seems, to me, like admitting that you might end up giving your pup up to rescue later on!
Any pup bought from a GOOD breeder would be purchased under the condition that it is returned to the breeder if it can no longer be kept, hence obliterating the chance of it ending up in rescue.
Added to which, there are as many people in the USA who oppose these ops as there are people in the UK, and I have met many a USA resident who would like to own a natural dobe, but find it extremely hard to source one out. There is a market for natural dobes in the USA, and to claim there isn't is ignorant.
The pro docking and cropping lot like to claim that their 'choice' to crop/dock is under threat by people like me. They like to harp on about 'choice'.
But what of the choice of those who want a natural dog? Just try finding a good breeder in the USA who will leave you a pup natural. Pups are docked, and the cropping done before the owner even picks up their new pup. So much for 'choice' there.
If one is going to put so much importance on 'choice', they should be more supportive of people who choose not to dock and crop a whole litter, but try going on a USA dobe forum as a breeder and telling them you're leaving your entire litter natural.
You'd get ripped a new one.
Choice does not exist on this issue. If you are good pet owner in the USA who wants to do the right thing and buy a well bred pup from a reputable breeder, you are highly unlikely to get this 'choice' the pro-cropping/docking lot go on about being so important.
6. Why would someone oppose cropping and docking but be pro neutering? Isn't that a non-consentual op as well?
The two are not really comparable.
People don't neuter dogs for cosmetic reasons, or for their own vanity, there are a lot of reasons why people choose to neuter, and apperance is not one!
For me, personally, I do not advocate routine castration for male dogs. I see no reason to castrate a dog as a matter of course, if there is no medical or behavioural reason to do so.
Castration can carry its own set of health problems, so if someone is able to cope with an entire male, and keep him away from females, I see no need to castrate him any more than I would castrate a healthy, adult human male.
For bitches, it isn't that clear cut, and I do generally support spaying a bitch, as the health benefits of spaying are far more significant.
But regardless, people tend to neuter because they believe it is ultimately for the good of the dog species and prevents over-population, and for bitches, prevents pyometra, phantom pregnancies and some other health issues.
This is not the same as a procedure performed for cosmetic reasons only.
I would not feel guilty if my bitch died as the result of a spay op, as I'd know it was done with her best interests at heart.
I would feel awfully bad if a pup died during a cropping operation, which is for the human's benefit and not the dog's.
7. So are you against circumsicion of baby boys too?
People always make this remark.
Its not the same thing. One is a foreskin, the other is an ear.
A circumsicion doesn't require an anaesthetic, or months of taping and posting! A foreskin isn't a limb with a bone in it (like a tail is).
As it is, I don't really ever run into men who are cut, nor do I know anyone who has been, so its not something I encounter often or have cause to get involved in the rights and wrongs of.
But since the question is there......Im not 100% comfortable with it, no. Im not comfortable with anything that is done to the body of another, without their consent, particularly if that procedure is painful and the body part was fine the way it was.
I don't like seeing babies with pierced ears for the same reason :P
Look, I know this is controversial, and I do not hate people who have cropped or docked dogs. I have friends who do, and I don't constantly snarl at them over it, nor do I look down on them for their choices.
In fact, for most pet owners, it isn't a choice since dobe pups in the USA tend to be docked and cropped before they even go to their new home so the owner has no choice.
My issue isn't with the people who do it; its the excuses they make for it, and the way they attack owners of natural dogs.
If someone wants cropped ears and a docked tail on their dog, and is happy to admit that they know it is purely a cosmetic op but they just prefer that look, then fine. I am not going to rage at them; they're honest. And we can't help what we like the look of.
I don't agree with their choice at all, and believe we should put our shallow whims of appearance aside for the welfare of animals, but I wouldn't abuse them for it, or tell them they were evil.
But I am sick to death at looking at vids of natural dobes on youtube, or pics on forums, and seeing a comment like 'shame about the ears'. It sickens me.
Go look up a video of a natural dobe on youtube, any video, and I can almost guarantee you someone will make a comment about the natural ears and tail, and usually a nasty one.
The pro-dock and crop people ask that we allow them to have the choice and not try to restrict their 'freedoms' to crop and dock, but they do not extend that same respect to those people who want natural dogs.
I would never go to a video of a cropped and docked dog and say 'lovely dog, shame about the ears!' but I frequently see it done the other way around.
I even see comments accusing people of not being responsible owners if they have left their dog natural.
It is not cool, and I will not allow it to happen on pics of my pup.
I am sick of being called a 'tree hugger' or PETA supporter for my anti crop and dock stance. I am neither, but have been called both those things more than I can count because I advocate natural dobes.
I've even known people in the USA claim they would 'leave the breed' if they could no longer crop and dock.
This just.....it baffles me SO much. Its as if the ONLY thing they like dobes for is their looks, and if they have to change, they will drop them without a second thought. Im not sure whether Im just a weirdo, but I got a dobe for the temperament and personality, NOT the looks. And I would still want a dobe regardless of how the breed's looks evolved, because its the temperament and nature and personality that I love. I find it so hard to understand how someone can claim to love a breed, then want nothing to do with it any more if they're no longer allowed to cut bits off it.
Seems to me they never loved dobes to begin with, just what dobes represent, or how owning a dobe makes them look to others.
People tell me they like the cropped and docked look because it makes the dog look more aggressive. Why, in a breed that already has problems with its image, would you want to communicate to people in the street 'watch out, this dog will kill you!' Isn't that what spawns BSL? Isn't this kind of stereotyping what we're trying to disprove? Aren't we, as dog lovers, supposed to educate people about the true nature of these so called 'dangerous dogs' and help these breeds by showcasing how wonderful and loving they actually are?
And yet people still want a dog that will make people cross the road to avoid, they still want a dog that will send out the message 'this dog is aggressive'.
Personally, I see this as a huge disservice to the doberman breed. When so many are wrongly accused of being 'devil dogs', I can't understand why any pet owner would want to do something to their dog to make it fit that stereotype, and look more aggressive.
I don't want my dog to look aggressive. In fact, I'd be mortified if he showed aggressive tendencies to passer's by without just cause. Thats not how a dobe should be.
People have said to me 'well, my dog is partly for my personal protection when out walking, so yes, I do want him to look intimidating'.
Bullshit.
One of the reasons I got a dobe instead of a pom, shiba inu, or alaskan klee kai (yes, believe it or not, those are breeds I considered too) is because I spend a lot of time alone, in a not-so-nice area and I did want a dog to act as a deterrent if Im out walking alone.
So I get that idea of having a dog to feel safer when you're alone, especially as a woman. But a dog does NOT need to be cropped to be a deterrent.
Most people will not mess with someone walking with any large dog, regardless of breed. Even a black lab will be a deterrent. Even a greyhound will be a deterrent. Any dog over a certain size, regardless of breed, will be a deterrent.
The idea that a dog having pricked ears will make it a better protector than a natural one is, again, just another excuse to justify what is, at a basic level, a cosmetic preference and nothing more.
Please let us follow the old saying of 'if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all'. You put pics of your cropped and docked dog up, and I will not say a thing to you in opposition to your choice, as long as you don't shit on me for mine.
I ask that people do the same for me.
People are free to debate with me here if they don't agree. I know this is a controversial topic. But I mainly post it to TRY and avoid future drama on any pictures of my puppy that I will post, and explain why my dog is natural, and why I would have it no other way.
As a UK girl who never even knew about ear cropping until someone from the USA told me about it, Im still saddened that I have to defend my dog against people who cannot see that there are other countries and other ways of doing things, and not everywhere is the USA, nor is it wrong for a dobe to be left as it is and not sliced up for fashion.
I really don't want to have to constantly argue this issue, nor do I want regular comments left on pics of him which ask 'why isn't he cropped/docked' or even the one I see often on natural dobes 'shame about the ears/tail'.
So....these are the facts, and my whole view on this thing, so hopefully I won't have to deal with too much trouble relating to this issue.
It is important to realise the most important point here: cropping of ears and docking of tails is ILLEGAL in the UK. I couldn't do it to my pup even if I wanted to.
If you want a dobe with a docked tail here, you have to either import an already docked dog from a country where it is permitted, or find a breeder who whelps the litter outside of the UK.
Some breeders send the bitch to Northern Ireland to welp, as they can still legally dock the tail there.
Or, you could rescue an older dobe that was docked prior to the ban, which I believe came in in 2006.
There is an exemption in the UK for 'working dogs'. If you can prove that the pup is going to be used for working, they can make an exception and you may still be able to dock.
But this primarily goes along with gundog breeds, who are still used for their original purpose fairly often here. A dobe would be a much harder breed to prove 'working status' of.
It is rare to see any puppy with a docked tail in the UK now. I've not seen one for years now, so even the number of exempt 'working dogs' is low.
Thats it. There is no other legal way to get a docked dog.
If you have one, you'll also probably wish you didn't: you WILL get stopped in the street and quizzed on why your puppy is docked, as well as probably getting a lot of evil looks from those who don't stop to ask.
As for ear cropping, that is also illegal here, and has been for a loooooong time, at least since I've been alive.
Its not an issue here. Virtually no-one owns a cropped dog, of any breed (if they do, it will have been imported), and most people in the UK will never have seen one.
Most won't even know what ear cropping is or that such a thing is done. Most average UK folk would look at you with disgust if you told them there is a practise where a puppies ears are cut, then taped to make them stand upright. Its just not recognised here. A dobe with cropped ears here would have people constantly asking you what breed it was.
Despite me informing people of the laws here, people still see fit to argue the toss with me about how it 'should' be done, and the laws are stupid, usually for the following reasons.
1. But an undocked/uncropped dobe doesn't look like a dobe!
It does here. It might be an issue in the USA, but here, a natural dobe is the dobe we know.
Some people here still recognise the docked tail as a dobe thing, as the ban only came into effect here a few years back.
But a dobe with cropped ears in the UK would likely be thought of as a cross-breed by the average member of the public, as we do not associate the dobe with pointed ears: they're a dropped eared breed here.
I know that before I learned about ear cropping, I'd seen cropped dobes online and just assumed they were cross-breeds, as I didn't think there was any way to get a floppy eared dog's ears to stand.
In fact, my breeder owns a cropped dog, imported, and when he took it to the vet, they weren't even sure what breed he was, because its that alien to us.
2. The 'natural dobe' isn't what Mr. Dobermann intended when he created the breed!
He also created a dog that was black and tan, not red, blue, fawn, or white. And yet people who are pro-cropping still own red dobes, or any of the other colours. If one is so concerned with what Mr. Dobermann wanted for the breed, they would only own black and tan dogs.
The first original dobe pics show a dog with very short cropped ears, of the 'military' style of crop.
Yet most dobes that are cropped are done with the longer 'pet' or 'show' crop, again, not what Mr Dobermann probably intended either!
Added to which, look at the photos of the first original dobes compared to the dobes of today: they didn't look exactly like they look now. We have refined and altered this breed in several ways since it first appeared on the scene.
One either has to be a purist, and stick only to what mr Dobermann intended, which would be strictly only a black and tan dog with a military crop, or one has to just get over it and accept that the dog is a different dog now and stop using this excuse to justify cropping and docking.
It funny how people ignore other features that Herr Dobermann intended, but become purist when it comes to the ears and tail.
3. Cropping and docking are for health reasons!
Not so.
There was a time when people thought cropping the ears resulted in less ear infections, but this has been de-bunked, and fortunately, few people still use this argument, even the fiercest pro-cropper, because it holds so little water.
In fact, it has been suggested that cropping the ears of a naturally dropped-eared breed actually increases the chances of ear infections as it creates an open ear, but without any of the protective hair that usually accompanies naturally pricked-ear breeds.
As for the tail, it is claimed that dogs with tails left in tact will eventually break or damage the tail, and it is removed to prevent this damage.
But this is also not proven.
And in fact, some of the breeds that most commonly DO suffer from tail injuries are NOT breeds that are typically required to be docked anyway!
There is no docking requirement for any sight-hound, or dalmatians, or a number of other breeds with thin tails. If this were done purely for health reasons, wouldn't these breeds be docked too?
I saw a number of greyhounds with 'happy tail' when I worked at the vets, but no-one proposes docking this breed. Kinda puts the 'its purely to prevent injury' argument out of the picture.
If this were the case, and docking was purely for the welfare of the dog, we'd have other breeds being routinely docked, with greyhounds topping that list.
We don't.
These days, cropping and docking, particularly on dobes, are just for appearance, no other reason.
Dobes were originally cropped and docked, allegedly, to make it harder for an intruder to 'grab hold of a tail or ears' when fighting against the dog.
This may or may not have been true, though to be honest, if a fully grown dobe was racing for me, I wouldn't be trying to grab around its head or rear end, I'd be retreating, quickly.
Most dobes these days are pets or show dogs, and not called upon to do the job they were originally bred for, making these procedures even less relevent.
Some say it was done to make the dog look more alert, which I can buy, as it possibly does. But if one's dobe is a pet only, who cares how 'alert' it looks? And I know there is no mistake with how alert Dresden looks when I have treats to hand, even with his floppy ears!
4. Cropping and docking are not risky or painful for a dog, so what is the issue even if it is just for looks?
I do not agree.
Even if the pain and distress is minimal, why put a pup through this when it isn't necessary?
I actually have less of a concern about tail docking than I do about ear cropping. While I still don't agree with either of them, tail docking at least, if done via banding, is performed on a very young pup, does not require anaesthetic, and is completed relatively quickly.
Ear cropping, however, not only requires an anaesthetic, but weeks of posting and taping of the ears (the longer show crops can take months of this in order to stand properly).
Any anaesthetic on an animal carries a risk. On a young pup, this risk is even bigger.
I have read tragic stories on doberman forums where a couple of pups have actually died while under the anaesthetic for their ear crop.
I've read even more stories about pups who have had infection problems in the ears following the op, or problems where the ears never stood, leaving the dog with permanently mangled ears.
I do not know why anyone would take this risk with their pup, for nothing more than cosmetic reasons.
As responsible pet owners, it is our job to limit the risks to our pets as much as possible.
Ear cropping, to me, seems to be putting a pup at risk for no good reason. Cosmetic reasons are not good reasons, as far as Im concerned.
Others would disagree and consider that having their dog look a certain way is worth the risk to said dog.
I don't know that the dog would agree, and I certainly wouldn't want someone making a decision like that on my behalf, and putting me through an operation just because they didn't like the way I looked naturally.
How about if I wanted to have surgery on the ears of my dumbo rats to make them look top-eared, would that be acceptable? Likely not. I don't see why it is with dogs, other than for purposes of 'tradition' and human vanity. Neither seem important enough, to me, to risk the welfare of my dog.
Not to mention the taping and posting process, which seems pretty intrusive to a young pup, who should be focused on playing, learning and being socialised. I am concerned about the effect such an invasive procedure has on a pup at that impressionable age.
5. If a dobe is not cropped and docked, it has far less chance of ever being adopted if it ends up in rescue in the USA.
Sadly, Im not doubting that this is the case.
But to use this as justification for cropping and docking your own pup seems, to me, like admitting that you might end up giving your pup up to rescue later on!
Any pup bought from a GOOD breeder would be purchased under the condition that it is returned to the breeder if it can no longer be kept, hence obliterating the chance of it ending up in rescue.
Added to which, there are as many people in the USA who oppose these ops as there are people in the UK, and I have met many a USA resident who would like to own a natural dobe, but find it extremely hard to source one out. There is a market for natural dobes in the USA, and to claim there isn't is ignorant.
The pro docking and cropping lot like to claim that their 'choice' to crop/dock is under threat by people like me. They like to harp on about 'choice'.
But what of the choice of those who want a natural dog? Just try finding a good breeder in the USA who will leave you a pup natural. Pups are docked, and the cropping done before the owner even picks up their new pup. So much for 'choice' there.
If one is going to put so much importance on 'choice', they should be more supportive of people who choose not to dock and crop a whole litter, but try going on a USA dobe forum as a breeder and telling them you're leaving your entire litter natural.
You'd get ripped a new one.
Choice does not exist on this issue. If you are good pet owner in the USA who wants to do the right thing and buy a well bred pup from a reputable breeder, you are highly unlikely to get this 'choice' the pro-cropping/docking lot go on about being so important.
6. Why would someone oppose cropping and docking but be pro neutering? Isn't that a non-consentual op as well?
The two are not really comparable.
People don't neuter dogs for cosmetic reasons, or for their own vanity, there are a lot of reasons why people choose to neuter, and apperance is not one!
For me, personally, I do not advocate routine castration for male dogs. I see no reason to castrate a dog as a matter of course, if there is no medical or behavioural reason to do so.
Castration can carry its own set of health problems, so if someone is able to cope with an entire male, and keep him away from females, I see no need to castrate him any more than I would castrate a healthy, adult human male.
For bitches, it isn't that clear cut, and I do generally support spaying a bitch, as the health benefits of spaying are far more significant.
But regardless, people tend to neuter because they believe it is ultimately for the good of the dog species and prevents over-population, and for bitches, prevents pyometra, phantom pregnancies and some other health issues.
This is not the same as a procedure performed for cosmetic reasons only.
I would not feel guilty if my bitch died as the result of a spay op, as I'd know it was done with her best interests at heart.
I would feel awfully bad if a pup died during a cropping operation, which is for the human's benefit and not the dog's.
7. So are you against circumsicion of baby boys too?
People always make this remark.
Its not the same thing. One is a foreskin, the other is an ear.
A circumsicion doesn't require an anaesthetic, or months of taping and posting! A foreskin isn't a limb with a bone in it (like a tail is).
As it is, I don't really ever run into men who are cut, nor do I know anyone who has been, so its not something I encounter often or have cause to get involved in the rights and wrongs of.
But since the question is there......Im not 100% comfortable with it, no. Im not comfortable with anything that is done to the body of another, without their consent, particularly if that procedure is painful and the body part was fine the way it was.
I don't like seeing babies with pierced ears for the same reason :P
Look, I know this is controversial, and I do not hate people who have cropped or docked dogs. I have friends who do, and I don't constantly snarl at them over it, nor do I look down on them for their choices.
In fact, for most pet owners, it isn't a choice since dobe pups in the USA tend to be docked and cropped before they even go to their new home so the owner has no choice.
My issue isn't with the people who do it; its the excuses they make for it, and the way they attack owners of natural dogs.
If someone wants cropped ears and a docked tail on their dog, and is happy to admit that they know it is purely a cosmetic op but they just prefer that look, then fine. I am not going to rage at them; they're honest. And we can't help what we like the look of.
I don't agree with their choice at all, and believe we should put our shallow whims of appearance aside for the welfare of animals, but I wouldn't abuse them for it, or tell them they were evil.
But I am sick to death at looking at vids of natural dobes on youtube, or pics on forums, and seeing a comment like 'shame about the ears'. It sickens me.
Go look up a video of a natural dobe on youtube, any video, and I can almost guarantee you someone will make a comment about the natural ears and tail, and usually a nasty one.
The pro-dock and crop people ask that we allow them to have the choice and not try to restrict their 'freedoms' to crop and dock, but they do not extend that same respect to those people who want natural dogs.
I would never go to a video of a cropped and docked dog and say 'lovely dog, shame about the ears!' but I frequently see it done the other way around.
I even see comments accusing people of not being responsible owners if they have left their dog natural.
It is not cool, and I will not allow it to happen on pics of my pup.
I am sick of being called a 'tree hugger' or PETA supporter for my anti crop and dock stance. I am neither, but have been called both those things more than I can count because I advocate natural dobes.
I've even known people in the USA claim they would 'leave the breed' if they could no longer crop and dock.
This just.....it baffles me SO much. Its as if the ONLY thing they like dobes for is their looks, and if they have to change, they will drop them without a second thought. Im not sure whether Im just a weirdo, but I got a dobe for the temperament and personality, NOT the looks. And I would still want a dobe regardless of how the breed's looks evolved, because its the temperament and nature and personality that I love. I find it so hard to understand how someone can claim to love a breed, then want nothing to do with it any more if they're no longer allowed to cut bits off it.
Seems to me they never loved dobes to begin with, just what dobes represent, or how owning a dobe makes them look to others.
People tell me they like the cropped and docked look because it makes the dog look more aggressive. Why, in a breed that already has problems with its image, would you want to communicate to people in the street 'watch out, this dog will kill you!' Isn't that what spawns BSL? Isn't this kind of stereotyping what we're trying to disprove? Aren't we, as dog lovers, supposed to educate people about the true nature of these so called 'dangerous dogs' and help these breeds by showcasing how wonderful and loving they actually are?
And yet people still want a dog that will make people cross the road to avoid, they still want a dog that will send out the message 'this dog is aggressive'.
Personally, I see this as a huge disservice to the doberman breed. When so many are wrongly accused of being 'devil dogs', I can't understand why any pet owner would want to do something to their dog to make it fit that stereotype, and look more aggressive.
I don't want my dog to look aggressive. In fact, I'd be mortified if he showed aggressive tendencies to passer's by without just cause. Thats not how a dobe should be.
People have said to me 'well, my dog is partly for my personal protection when out walking, so yes, I do want him to look intimidating'.
Bullshit.
One of the reasons I got a dobe instead of a pom, shiba inu, or alaskan klee kai (yes, believe it or not, those are breeds I considered too) is because I spend a lot of time alone, in a not-so-nice area and I did want a dog to act as a deterrent if Im out walking alone.
So I get that idea of having a dog to feel safer when you're alone, especially as a woman. But a dog does NOT need to be cropped to be a deterrent.
Most people will not mess with someone walking with any large dog, regardless of breed. Even a black lab will be a deterrent. Even a greyhound will be a deterrent. Any dog over a certain size, regardless of breed, will be a deterrent.
The idea that a dog having pricked ears will make it a better protector than a natural one is, again, just another excuse to justify what is, at a basic level, a cosmetic preference and nothing more.
Please let us follow the old saying of 'if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all'. You put pics of your cropped and docked dog up, and I will not say a thing to you in opposition to your choice, as long as you don't shit on me for mine.
I ask that people do the same for me.
People are free to debate with me here if they don't agree. I know this is a controversial topic. But I mainly post it to TRY and avoid future drama on any pictures of my puppy that I will post, and explain why my dog is natural, and why I would have it no other way.
As a UK girl who never even knew about ear cropping until someone from the USA told me about it, Im still saddened that I have to defend my dog against people who cannot see that there are other countries and other ways of doing things, and not everywhere is the USA, nor is it wrong for a dobe to be left as it is and not sliced up for fashion.
Some of the comments left from the breed 'purists' were absolutely sickening.
One pro crop person actually said, to justify ear cropping, 'life is too short to live with ugly dogs'. I was just.....so stunned she would say that. Maybe Im just a wet, fluffy, soft person but to me, all my pets are beautiful. I have some rats who would definitely NOT win any beauty contests or shows, but I would never ever have them any other way, and to me, they're perfect.
When one loves an animal, or a child, or a person, you don't place importance on their appearance. Or at least, I don't.
It made me wonder what this person looked like herself, and whether she was 'classically beautiful' or whether she ever mixed with humans who were 'ugly'. It just shows such a horrible personality for someone to be that shallow.
More importantly, if anyone can't get past the fact that your Doberman looks and is beautiful in it's normal condition, they they can take their opinions, go off to a corner, and enjoy them there.
While able to, theoretically, be done humanely, cropping/docking is still (as you pointed out) not needed beyond the owner's aesthetic liking. I personally like the natural tail much better than the docked tail look. Ears I kinda like the "alert" look, but not enough to needlessly put an animal through the ordeal if given the choice (which in the US I don't think would be very often).
The bottom line that anyone should really care about when it comes to pet animals isn't how they look, but if they are healthy, happy, and well cared for.
What people sometimes misunderstand about me, or have in the past, is that they think my opposition is based on my own cosmetic preferences, but it really isn't.
While I'll happily admit I prefer a natural tail on all breeds and really dislike the look of a 'stump', I actually do like the look of cropped ears on some dogs. Some dogs really look noble and nice with them (not all, I've seen some dobes who really just didn't suit the cropped ears, and it made them look ridiculous) and I've seen some lovely crops that really look wow.
BUT.....as with you, regardless of whether I liked the look or not, I'd still not put my dog through that, even if I did have the choice. It wouldn't be worth it. I like the cropped look, on some, but I also have no objections to the natural look either, both have their charms, and it isn't important enough to me to put a puppy through surgery to achieve one specific look.
If dobes were naturally pricked eared, I'd have no issue at all. Its the whole idea of interfering to make them look a way they don't which bugs me.
I think if it really did bother me that much, I'd choose a naturally pricked eared breed with a similar temperament to a dobe, rather than getting a dobe and cutting it up.
Here, there is even a thing that goes on with the natural eared dobes where people will zip-tie their ears down, and under their chin, to ensure they hang 'correctly'. I only found out about this recently, where someone was saying her pups ears were a bit 'fly away' or hanging slightly too much 'off the face'. Some told her this method where they tape the ends of the ears, attach zip-ties to them in loops, then join them under the dog's chin to the ears are pulled down and secured. This is supposed to make them develop in a better 'hanging' position. I was just.....wtf? That never would have occurred to me!
Dresden's ears have, in the last couple of days, begun doing this odd 'wind swept/un-even' thing and don't look as 'neat' as they did when he was younger, but dammit, who cares?! If he ends up with ears like the flying nun, then thats just him, and will be fine and dandy to me :P
And I completely agree with you on the "stump" tails. I don't like them at all. As a friend of mine commented on someone with a bear character: "it looks like a poop flap". :x
When I see a stump tail on a dog, I just see an amputation site. I've never been able to get 'used' to it, even though I grew up when tail docking was legal and commonplace, so saw it often from childhood, it just never ever looked 'right' to me. I was always very aware I was looking at an animal with a bit missing, the same as I'd feel looking at a dog with 3 legs: it was just always very noticeable and never looked normal.
lol, poop flap!
I guess if it isn't causing the dog mental or physical discomfort.
Personally I think anyone who wants to chop parts off any creature for no reason other than looks should first be required to do it to themselves if they think it's so harmless. I'm in the UK as well and while I have known docked Dobes (and had more than one attempt to fit his ten stone into my lap when I was 4.5 stone and tiny, Dobes seem to all think they're lap dogs which is adorable even when you're getting squashed by one), I do not believe in altering any animal without damn good reasons, ie health or prevention of unwanted litters. But then I want a family member not a status symbol.
PS: Of course, we expect pictures of your adorable Dobe.
Very different in the US, where it was done routinely on every male baby regardless of religion up until recently.
I'm with you here. completely. I had an argument here on FA with someone who threw "Wet Tail Syndrome" into the pot as an argument; something I've never heard of. it's supposed to be a tail that sags down to earth... funny thing, a wolf's tail is worn exactly like that, unless it's the boss. not dragged across the ground, but still.
it's also funny how people define "freedom".
side note: I once saw someone downtown who walked two dobies, one cropped/docked, one natural. the first looked like we're used to in germany, the other was kind of cute. thin g is, even if docking/cropping is forbidden here, too (I think around 2006, too), natural dobies are not common, alas. seems like breeders go to france and netherlands to have their pubs cut to pieces, since there it's still allowed. their reasoning still isn't better.
like, the more arguments you need to find to justify your deeds, the less justifies is your deed after all.
curiously enough, there aren't that many dobies around my closer vicinity. except one in that model car shop over there, belonging to the owner, who is a shy, almost meek guy who won't come to sniff a customer's leg until one makes one "smaller" and crouches down: :)
Doberman people seem to be so obsessed with looks, perhaps moreso than any other breed. Even your average pet owner, not even a show person, often gets uptight about the natural ears not hanging correctly, or the whiskers looking 'messy'. I just don't get it. Dresden, my pup, is show quality. I could show him if I wanted to, but I choose not to. I want him to be a dog, and run in the woods and roll in the mud, and I don't really care what he looks like, nor want to spend time and energy obsessing over it. I don't understand people who do, on what is simply a pet. On a show dog, maybe, thats a different world. But with a pet, I just don't understand it.
"I didn't know dobies are a race of hamsters? 'cuz that's a typical hamster condition." or somesuch.
the obsession some people have with their pets is bordering to a neurosis or other mental illness in my opinion. let them shine and such allright, but havbe you seen the pic of a toy poodle cut so that it looks like it was one of those strange "pet robots" Honda or another japanese company have come up with? (the term "Toy Poodle" makes me want to hurt someone. living, breathing creatures are NEVER A TOY.)
of course, if you say "to each their own" you're right. maybe I go too far saying that some people drag it way too far to be normal in any sense. but, still. they should better abuse a plushie if they want to play. animals have the right to have their needs taken care of; it's our obligation when we keep them.
it really is pointless mutilation. sad that so many people do it. also kinda stupid that the breed standard includes something not natural in the breed itself. like saying the breed standard for a fish is to have wings >:|
The one comment I hate most of all is 'they look like coonhounds'. I don't know if these people have ever seen a decent dobe compared to a decent coonhound, but aside from their colour, and both being dogs, there is little comparison!
Had to dock it because he actually broke it in several places and it wasn't healing properly. =\
But normally, yeah, I don't think its necessary unless the dog starts doing that.
The most cases of happy tail I ever saw were on greyhounds.
There are few things that get me as angry as people who treat animals as fashion accessories. Without this mindset, there wouldn't be the need for things like a rescue foundation for Yorkies who can't even walk because they've been kept in purses their whole lives.
Dresden is a gorgeous little boy and I look forward to seeing pics of him when he's all grown up. ^^
This comment is just here to let you know there are pro dock/crop people that aren't rude and don't think anyone "should" do anything to their dog that they're uncomfortable with.
It is a vanity issue... And it is not their dog. :| How is it anyone's business what YOUR dog looks like aside from YOU. :| This is basically like saying "What? A black dog! Those have less of a chance of being adopted! How dare you own one!" Mind absolutely blown away.
There are some morons who really think people are 'irresponsible' by not cropping and docking, because they're not 'maintaining the true look of the breed' or trying to make it look 'like a hound'.
Its just stupid. Im not trying to make my dog look like anything; he looks like he looked when he fell out of his mother, and I haven't done anything to change that :P
Besides... Giant floppity ears and a big waggity tail are adorable. Screw show snobs. >(
Anyway, it made me feel good to read your journal. :)
And I'm not that great at judging dog behavior. I havent been reading them as long as I have rats, BUT I do know one way you can tell a mood is by the tail.