One of the biggest issues I've found is of artists who do not seem to learn from their mistakes, and think they should go unpunished for their transgressions.

I'd say go back and file on the older major issues, if they've not been resolved still.

Thanks for posting all the issues you've had. Helps me steer clear of these fuck wits.

It's probably best for me to start using A_B too.

Now that the site is more user friendly I strongly encourage it :D

That's interesting, but yeah doesn't help me decide which route to take ;p

o lawdy lookie at all dem dramas

'Tis far better to say nothing at all, if you cannot say anything nice.

That being said, the truth does hurt, and if people didn't want to be brought up on their mistakes, they wouldn't make such mistakes in the first place.

lol be quiet.

Sure is a little bit of drama, and your welcome for saving you from those particular cases.

I wouldn't know what to say about the older claims bit. I suppose if they have a history of bad service then by all means do it.

Mkay :D

Some people are jerks.. and they get money for drawing pretty things.. I don't get it.. >.>

The way I see it, going back on your word would be more out of spite, even if it is "fair play". In my opinion, taking the noble route and keeping your end of the agreement assures your moral high ground, and doesn't reduce you to the level of the people who you believe have wronged you.

I agree with the cute orange snuffleupagus

I'm gonna hurt you, lol. ♥

The issue I have with this, is no matter which route I choose, I'm both right and wrong. I want to be as up front and honest as i can be with everyone, it's somethign I pride myself on. But I can't do that unless I break that word on leaving it anonymous.

The issue with not reporting it isn't just the honesty, it's the fact I'm not divulging to prospective commissioners ALL the issues I had with the individual. Someone may be fine with waiting 5+ years for work, but not ok with subpar/rushed/traced work. In which case my beware wouldn't do that person much good.

If the point of posting the bewares was to spite these people I'd agree with you, but it's not out of spite. It's to warn others so they don't have to deal with it too. Had I been warned I'd never have hired any of them.

Then I guess it's simply a matter of weighing what option is more in line with your ideals. Sounds like the "outing" option from the tone here. Which is fine of course.

Honesty is honesty though. If you pride yourself on your honesty, that means keeping your word. It's not your responsibility to police the net and reprimand no-good-doers, as selfless and considerate of you it is to do so for those that WOULD get snared in their subpar behavior.

There's also the fact that there's no guarantee that people would take your advice. I'm sure there will be those that will, so this point is rather moot, but most would prefer to learn in their own experience than trust another's input.

Like you said, it's not out of spite, but more out of doing the right thing. But you have my opinion, heh.

Yes I do have your opinion and it's being tallied with the rest :D

My recommendation is to only report on outstanding unresolved issues you feel are report-worthy currently, and any future issues you might have. I would leave the past issues in the past, regardless of how it panned out.

Thank ya's!

Hmm... I wish this would happen in real life too! I imagine someone buying rotten fruit from a store, then taking those big audio systems and a microphone, going in the middle of a town and starting shouting where he bought them from, explaining everything about it and how the seller acted about the whole problem with or without payment refundings and such.

Maybe it's because I was never interested to commission another artist, but these bewares have alot more than drama in them than intended. I think customer/artist information should be kept private and sure, tell yar friends about it, but all of yar watchers... Isn't it kinda extreme? You are a popular fur, your character is commissioned by artists both great and small and hell, he is in almost all furry fapin folders. So i really don't think the beware artists are actually a good thing.

I think negative thinking brings negative results. Karma! Why make all these journals/efforts/livejournals and so on explaining what artists did wrong in their commission as a sign of other commissioners to beware (and maybe new artists to fear?) and not make a journal with artists you recommend, explaining why they were worth comissioning and how their services matched or surpassed expectation.

First part of your reply made me laugh, awesome way to compare apples and oranges... or rather apples and golfballs. If I was buying rotten fruit I'd merely toss it and never go back. It'd be my fault for not realizing it was rotten before I bought it. Places like Ebay, Craigslist, even illegal farming sites for MMO's have feedback ratings for buyers and sellers. So this DOES happen in "real life" too.

I agree, artist/commissioner info should remain private. I've not released any of our private conversations other than what affects the actual issues at hand, what's required to file the beware, or allow the community to know to steer clear, or what to expect from certain artists. Nope not extreme. I only do this with those that warrant it, luckily only a slight few. If I'm that popular, then good, the word will get around and fewer people might get jipped by these people.

It IS karma, they screwed up, creating negative force, I'm merely the vessel that karma decided to flow through and now it's heading right back at the ones who generated it! I cant' honestly recommend artists, I have recommended a few and gotten bitten because of it. My tastes aren't always going to match up with others and If I say use xxx artist and they don't wind up liking the style/anatomy/commission policy etc, then that reflects back on me. I think to date the only people I've recommended unconditionally are WFA and Fydbac. I may have recommended others for particular results/policy/etc but I rarely do it. As to KUDO's to artists, that all goes on the images as they are posted. See the really horrible dealings people get bad publicity with journals, the GOOD people get publicity with art submissions and those who fall in between, still get good publicity with submissions. WIN/WIN!

Funny, I always thought it was the other way around: the place to warn commissioners about unreliable artists was "Commissioners beware", and that "Artists beware" was the other way around. :O

Actually, this is the predominant site for BOTH. Not one or the other.

Gotcha :D

Have you ever had someone refuse to do work for you because of your TOS?

Once. LOL I was commissioning an Icon and the artist was like - To hell if I'm agreeing to a contract over an icon.

I was like - thanks for saving me headache later on when you refused to do work.

Did you start using one because you got burnt too many times by shitty workers, or have you always used it?

After I realized relying solely on artists ToS wasn't cutting it, I talked with several artists, some in professional lines of work some from FA/DA/etc. Fydbac in particular recommended that I should create my own ToS. Each revision of my ToS has been checked back and forth between these same artists and sometimes I find new artists to toss it at to test it out.

It's ultimately as simple as this - you want my money, you WILL provide a minimum level of service/product and within a timely fashion so as not to cause undue expense or loss to myself. If you can't do that, then I don't need to even bother with you. Too many Artists ToS are too unstructured or loosly written and there are many terms not defined that are deal breakers.

I check the artists ToS before I even consider them. If I can't find one, I ask. If I don't see anything weird, strange or something I can't agree too, then I give them mine along with the concept and if they agree to mine, I send money or give the goahead to begin.

So if an artist has a satisfactory TOS you don't bother sending yours along too?
Sounds reasonable :)

Not true. I direct ALL artists at mine. Timeliness is always a huge concern, as is payment terms. Additionally the requirement for the character name to be in the image itself is a deal breaker if the artist refuses. I have quite a bit of leeway on HOW that stuff can be handled, but again that requires the artist and I to agree on terms. ToS are just the first step of the agreement process.

Ah, still reasonable.

A proper Artist's TOS should have payment times/ due dates included after initial negotiations - I'm going by a designer's TOS though, so I'm guessing most artists you've encountered (on FA or other) probably don't take that into account? None of my encounters with prospective commissioners have been what I would call professional (not in any way a bad thing)

I haven't written up my own TOS yet (because the very few commissions I've done were for sketch pieces and the way the commissioners communicated gave me the distinct impression that the sort of TOS I'd draw up would frighten them right off) but by damn, when I write it timeliness would be included. Otherwise I'd never finish the work - which is the main reason I don't take commissions anyway :D

Honest question but do you honestly think that artist is the sort of person who wouldn't deliver solely because they refused your contract? There are many reasons an artist may refuse a contract, most of which don't mean that they're scammers, they may refuse it because it's poorly written, because it clashes with their own contract, because it isn't right for them or just because it makes them uncomfortable.

As an artist, I don't have a problem with contracts and encourage potential clients to set deadlines, however your ToS (which is a misnomer) to be honest, comes across as curt and even somewhat offensive. I would suggest if you want to have a contract and retain the best chances of hiring artists, that you look to rewriting it to be more professional and more like an actual contract. I'd suggest getting some advice from a lawyer or from artist groups.

Yes, I do believe it. If there's something I've written that an artists refuses to agree too, then they are either likely wanting to do something I've spelled out not too - like taking forever to complete, or they are so worried about having the power/control in the deal that I don't need their business. Ultimately, if the artist isn't going to do something to fuck me over, they shouldn't have ANY issue saying yes. A no is a huge red flag to me, and it's better to just move on.

I have had a few artists that other people have had issues with, look at my policy and bitch about it, but I never tried to commission them so hearing them bitch about it, only solidified my intent to continue to use it to help weed out potential problem artists and thieves.

I really don't care if someone thinks my ToS is below them, against their own, or any of the other stuff you asked about. It's my ToS, they either agree to it, or they can find money elsewhere.

My ToS is actually called a commission policy. I refer to it as ToS when others do, as essentially all these things are the same thing. Ultimately it's the groundwork for the artist and me to agree on terms. Most artists ToS do NOT cover important items like how long the commission will take to completion in hard date format. Or other items I spell out that the artist MUST be aware of when they agree to take the job. I don't care if it's offensive. I really truly don't. If it offends an artist to the point they will refuse work, well see paragraph one of this reply. And yes, that's that, final word, story is over.

Again with the "if you want to keep hiring artists......" I'm NOT having ANY issues finding artists to do art! So thank you for your comments. But the comment is in line with what a bunch of other "quick to post comments, without doing any actual research or knowing facts" people posted. So you most likely saw the beware journal, on an artist for work several years old, read the policy that was instated at that time, and assumed it was still in effect. Try looking up my current policy, it's not that hard to find. It's in fact linked off the user page at the very top.

I built the first 2 iterations with DIRECT assistance of several artists. It was THEIR suggestion to me to fix the issues I was having with thieves and bad artists. So thank you for the advice that I'd already acted on. The current policy was written solely by me and just reviewed by a few artists for wording/clarity, then actually tested on a couple small commissions before I posted it and made my new enforced policy. As to talking to a lawyer, as is I've stated to others, in other comments, journals, tweets, etc, I have discussed this with some lawyers. A few in different fields in fact. I've been given the nod that it's binding, but sure there are more "apparent" ways of making a contract, but it's merely about formality, and not so much about making it more legal, so whatever.

Chances are they probably had no intention of ripping you off. There is a difference between being cautious and treating everyone like they're out to steal your lucky charms.

The problem is not that you want certain things, it's how you ask for those certain things, those are what make your policy rather alienating and more to the point paints you as a client who has the potential to be unreasonable and that's a huge red flag to many artists.

My point is that it's probably also going to weed out good artists, because of how it's addressed. As an artist, there is always the potential for people to rip me off, to not pay or to print and sell the work without purchasing the copyright, I don't treat all my clients like they're going to do that though because the majority won't even consider doing it. Treating all my clients like they're potential thieves would be shooting myself in the foot and probably wouldn't protect me from actual thieves.

Actually I read your latest policy, it's an improvement on the older one, but it still is off putting, and to be honest, some of the wording is strange, like "-There is a 44 day suspense deadline on this project from date of payment." I presume it means you want the work within 44 days. Suspense deadline is no legal term I recognize.

Since you apparently got advice then I have no clue why nobody told you how to write a contract properly and in a non-aggressive way. But then you do come across as generally aggressive, and you tend to resort to accusations when you disagree with something someone says or does. You might want to rethink that.

Your view is noted, not changing a thing for you though. I'm not having issues hiring artists, as I've re-iterated numerous times. Thank you for your opinion, it was received, understood and rejected, have a nice day.

And Starfinder didn't have issues finding people to pay her money for not doing the work for ten years.

I'm not saying that omg it'll kill your chances stone dead, I'm saying it's off-putting and does little to protect you. Do you think predatory artists will really balk at lying/contract breaking? If they're planning to run with your money then your contract isn't going to stop that.

http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/...../#cid:26856133