I wish I could fave this journal. This will have to do -->

Hell yes, it's like you took everything from the shopwreckers chat, lit up the issues, and tried to make sense of it all. For that, I think you have earned my respect.

Yup...

Agreed on all points.

Yes to all of this!

Thank you for saying this. I like you more, now.

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

I guess people are worried that when you say Im straight its because you have been bullied into being straight you havent checked to see if you are gay .... you just do what society tells you to do

As much as I'd like to believe this, I strongly suspect it has more to do with the "I'm this way, so obviously anyone who isn't just hasn't tried it or done it right" mentality.

that is true. that is a common myth ... For me I just want to make sure that youdid give it a fair shake because I dont want you o miss out on great sex...

Why, though? If I decide that I'm straight (I'm not, but for the sake of discussion), isn't it presumptuous, even disrespectful to assume that your sexual preference is somehow better than mine and I'm somehow 'missing out' if I don't try it?

oh no I just 1) am worried that you are SAYING you are straight because you were RAISED to think that being straight is the only acceptable sexuality..
and 2) I have to make sure that you have experienced Gay sex and can know for sure that you are gay or straight without being FORCED into that realization...

That seems more than a little preposterous.

1) Even if that was true, who are you to question how another person was raised?
2) Why do you have to make sure I've experienced anything? Doesn't that make you the one doing the forcing?

gosh it comes out of paranoia. That and concern that people have been raised in a society that is against homosexuality. we live in a society that is against homosexuals .. not EVERY family will be open and accepting to children that are gay. it is reasonable to assume that some families will react negatively to children that are gay... There fore its a high probability that heterosexual people have families that will disown or change how they treat their family members that "come out" or "State that they are gay or bi."
Please note that this is not meant to be cruel... all this was done out of compassion that our Anti Gay society is mistreating them ... or making them deny or not even consider that they have homosexual desires

Tell me, have you tried having a STRAIGHT encounter? You know, with another female? Tried putting your dick in their vagina? I hope the answer for you is yes.

oh yea of course its fun...

Did you do it of your own choice, or were you forced?

I did it because I thought I had to .. its just that
crap Im coming across wrong.. Im trying to explain the other POView and Its not coming across right im sorry

Crossing the line separating just 'emphasizing' your pov and being rather radical about it is all too easy sometimes. It happens, but from the sound of things... I think we get the idea now :P

So don't worry about it.

Actually, nevermind. I'm just gonna drop my argument. Your intents seem valiant enough, but the way you're wording it makes you ALMOST look like the equivalent of radical anti-gays. While they view it as a "phase" and you're just 'sick' and you're actually straight, you're coming off as if all straight people are going through a phase, and they're just 'sick' and are actually gay or bisexual.

Black and white everywhere, but only the grey are the real winners.

I don't think the way you're raised has much of an impact on somebody's sexual orientation. I say this because my family is very accepting of gay rights and both my brother and I are straight.

I do believe that someone's sexual orientation and sexual identity are not always the same, but even if they are different, poking and prodding only makes it worse and will not win the approval of anyone.

/agree

This Journal gains my Seal of approval

I'm in full agreement Isty, people really do need to just stop being samples. It should be a simple concept.

I agree. I also think it's about time someone spoke out on that second part.

I agree with your rant. I want to be clear about that from the start.

That understood, on the topic of the term "mundane," I'd like to offer a brief history lesson.

To my knowledge, the term comes from "fanspeak," the peculiar jargon of Science Fiction fandom. It was coined in the "bad old days" of the 1950s when SF was a literary ghetto. The fans knew there were wonderful stories in their favourite magazines, (Astounding, Amazing, Galaxy, etc.) All that the rest of world knew of SF were B movies like This Island Earth and It Came From Outer Space, or serials like Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers. That's why the rest of the world looked down on SF fandom for liking "that crazy buck rogers stuff." It seemed to SF fans of the time that their parents, teachers, employers, school bullies et al neither understood nor wanted to understand; they'd already made their minds up and didn't want to be disturbed by evidence to the contrary. (Remember, this was roughly the McCarthy Era.) For better or worse, it was in this climate that the term "mundane" came into general use by SF fans to describe somebody who was not one of them.

As time passed, SF started to ease its way out of its ghetto. Writers such as Ray Bradbury managed to get stories into Playboy's pages as well as the genre magazines. Movie makers like Stanley Kubric teamed up with Arthur C Clarke to create 2001; Steven Speilburg made Close Encounters (of the third kind); Ridley Scott discovered Phillip K Dick and made Bladerunner. "The mundanes" started to see just how amazing SF could be if treated with a little respect and SF started to gain respect among them.

The fans, meanwhile, had this handy word to describe somebody who was not one of them. But now the people it described weren't looking down their noses at SF or Fandom any more. So rather than change the word, (which would have required consensus, something which in a fandom is like herding cats), the word simply lost its stigma. Now a-days when SF fans refer to "mundanes," there are no hard feelings, it's just a word. It just means not an SF fan.

Whether this is also true for Furry fans I couldn't say for sure. Given the time period when Furry split from SF, I believe that it probably is in most cases. However, Furry fans who joined after the first of us and never learned fanspeak might think it disrespectful because they only have the original definition of mundane to judge by. And given that, perhaps the word should be retired. But what would we replace it with? How should furries describe somebody who's not a part of our fandom?

...oh my, that's much more of a Wall-O-Text than I'd intended! Sorry 'bout that.

"How should furries describe somebody who's not a part of our fandom?"

How about 'non-furries'?

Accurate, but kinda clumsy, it doesn't exactly trip lightly off the tongue. It's also kinda negative, it defines them by what they're not. We don't want to do that to ourselves, doing it to the rest of the world isn't fair either. Ordinaries, normals, outsiders, muggles... It's no easy feat finding a word for non-fans that isn't somehow negative, either denotationally or connotatively. If I come up with something, I'll let you know. Good luck convincing other fans to use it!

Incidentally, we do want to acknowledge that there are people who are Furry fans and others who are not. Thinking of everybody as either a fan or potential fan is inaccurate and unfair. It's like the odd gay guy who think of every man as a potential sex partner, discounting the old-fashioned notion that some men are attracted to women and not to other men. As a habit of thinking, it's incorrect, unfair and likely to get the snot beaten out of him. We should respect our own boundaries, especially if we want others to respect them, too. So yeah, I believe that having a word to mean somebody who is not a fan, (a Furry fan at least), is a good idea. Just my opinion, though.

I like the phrase "general population"

Or in other words...Check your attitudes,grow up or shut yer yapper!!!! Yes, Istanbul~as always, I'm so glad you speak your mind so elequently.

I love you Isty.
I agree fully, but I feel like this is something that shouldnt have to be a problem.
To be involved in a group of such diversity I should expect there to be friction but on simple things like this? Has it really been that bad? I ask seriously because I've been out of the loop and have only recently re entered.

You're absolutely right. This shouldn't have to be a problem. Unfortunately, it is; this is widespread behavior I saw as recently as in a stream this week. It is because this shouldn't have to be a problem that I posted this journal. It doesn't have to be this way: we can and should be better than this, and it's the responsibility of each and every one of us to speak out when we see this sort of behavior polluting our fandom and its future.

You know Isty, this has me thinking about something.
I think that a lot is that as we get older in the fandom, and the younger generation of furries join the fandom(and by younger generation, I don't mean age, I just mean as in new into the fandom in and of itself), they come in and are excited and aren't too sure how to react to the freedom and safety that we have to offer. They may say and do things without thinking and because the older furs have "been there, done that" and have settled down and already understand the rules and know better, they know what really is right and wrong, they don't really think too much on it when they make comments and speak. As a side effect, younger furries see and hear and they will take it in differently than how we put it out, and it effects them. And because they came in during a different time period of the fandom than we did (because, let's be honest, a lot has changed in ten years alone, hell just five!) they will see it differently.
Maybe if we, as the older generation of furries were to take a moment and realize that the younger gens were actually paying more attention to us then we may realize, we may take a second to think about what we say.For example, some understand what is meant when joking about "Mundanes" as  dotter pointed out in the above statement, others do not because the knowledge is not there, and they do not have it available to them unless they really just start skewering the internet.
In fact, we have actually reached a point, the fandom has a history and culture, and could possibly benefit from a set of "Hist-furrians" who would be willing to sit down and write this down and have it available to talk about at cons, or make a book available even. We've had prominant events, we've had important people, we've had our ups, downs, and our goods and bads.
Look at us, we get studied at cons, we get spoken about on the news. You yourself are one of the leading P.R.s for the fandom if I'm not mistaken

*Disclaimer, all the following is my opinion lolz*

I hate to say but the first two are stuff you just have to deal with. It's not right, it's not fair, but that's exactly why it happens. There are many relatively ignorant and innocent believers and straight people who get caught up in it. But the driving forces behind those unfair judgements know better.

I hate to say it, but let the insults fly. Insults are only insulting because we acknowledge them as such and would not be used if people did not react. Both the religion and the straight/gay angle play into this. They want people to react and they want people to judge. Attention, pleasure, insecurity, these things all really come full circle back to insecurity. A confident and secure person feels no need to disparage or judge others.

We can choose to ignore the slings and arrows others throw at us using words. Even if it is not always easy we can still take the hard path and be good people, we can do what's right instead of retaliating. Because taking offense is a choice once you truly understand the situation. We can choose not to take offense. We can work hard at changing our own POV to such a point as to where we do not spend undue energy bickering, or angry, or moping. We can spend that energy towards constructively fixing it via the channels we have available to us. Spreading love and tolerance, being fair to thus that hate even if they do not deserve it. Shrugging off the vollets launched at us. Leading by example.

Physical violence we must stop with law, and if need be numbers and physical discouragement as an absolutely last resort. Words, emotional assaults, judgements. These things we can reject, we can choose to move past. Physical violence takes away your choice to participate or not in harm to yourself.


Furries squicking the mundanes? They are just as bad as the above. They know better. But because they are bored, and again insecure, they go out and do stupid stuff for laughs and making themselves feel a bit better. The fact they are furries only drives home how much they should know better.





So long as our society is based around greed, insecurity, and competition all these types of behaviors will remain rampant. Those things feed off of each other. All you can do is set the best example you can. Love and care even if people don't deserve it. Be fair even if others are not. And expect nothing in return for it. You might end up ahead in the end by being a good person, but looking for the end is the best way to become bitter and disenfranchised. Because it will never "feel" as if that good comes around back to you.


So my long full of words post over now.


*gives Isty a giant Lynxie hug*. It's frustrating sometimes I know, but hang in there :).

If we sincerely didn't care about how the world treated us, this would work.
If we already had all the widespread social acceptance we wanted, this would work.
If we weren't clamoring for treatment that we deny to others, this would work.

None of the above are true. If we want to be treated well, we must treat others well. If we want religious, social, sexual, mental, linguistic, emotional, conceptual, legal freedom, we must be prepared - even EAGER - to give these things to others.

It's true, this is an uphill struggle. There will always be people who are only willing to see things from their point of view, who don't understand the hypocrisy in demanding equality for themselves while denying it to others...but it's one thing to acknowledge that sort of behavior, and quite another to condone it. We can acknowledge the fact that these things happen, but only social pressure - the simple act of turning to a person and saying, "Hey, that's not okay" - will ever enact real, lasting change in our fandom.

I agree completely. But those who are already that way are unlikely to change without major life events. Best we can do is set a good example and do our best to shape part of society to be better people through it.

We will always care. Even the opinion of that person should not matter. Even if we understand widespread social acceptance is an ephemeral, difficult, and sometimes downright stupid thing. Even if we were not hypocritical ourselves at times. We still have to do the right thing best we can as much as possible and tell others when needed "don't be a dick".


All we can do is put forwards the best example we can and gently urge others to follow. Do what you can. As you said when someone does something say "dood, not cool." But try not to stress overly much over it even though you still commit to what you say. Caring is a good thing. It shows it still matters to you. But as someone that cares you also have to be very careful to balance how deeply you invest, for your own good. IE do everything you can, but don't drive yourself crazy over it.

Like I said being a caring person is a difficult balance. You never stop caring or trying. But you have to be careful about how personally attached you get to the results or you will tear yourself apart. As the saying goes "scratch a cynic and you'll find a disappointed idealist." Like it or not you have to take care of yourself and your own personal state to some degree if you do not want to burn out and become too jaded. Even good ole Carlin admitted falling prey to this. In the long run saying he became that guy with a notebook that would see things and go "oh that's interesting" and write that down. Check some of his final interviews. He still cares, ALOT, just kind of gave up hope.


I definitely understand though. It's painful, very painful, and frustrating. Which is why people marching ahead caring and doing the right thing are more rare than they should be. Especially when you have others undermining your work. Maybe in the fandom, maybe even in the personal sense.


You've made it a good long while caring as much as you have. Keep up the good work and know always you have plenty of others like you out there even if it doesn't seem that way alot of times. And don't forget to take some you time and recharge BEFORE you have to, No matter what you're trying to accomplish your no good to anyone frustrated and dead tired :).


*more hugs*

I disagree with the notion that the insulting nature depends on the subject's reaction to the insult, on the grounds that most insults are directed at people in their absence, and never meant to be heard by them. I'd instead argue that a statement's message is defined by the intent of the sender. If one's intent is to express hatred of a particular group of people, one will find a word to express that, and exercise that hatred regardless of whether or not the group in question ever learns of it.

This contains a large amount of "What he said."

Bravo, good sir :)