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A Question for You....
17 years ago
General
Some benevolent aliens come to earth and through a lottery only you are given the option to return with them to experience the enormous wonders of the universe.
But you could never return.
Would you go?
No terms, no conditions.
There is no question of their benevolence and you can say goodbyes.
But you could never return.
Would you go?
No terms, no conditions.
There is no question of their benevolence and you can say goodbyes.
Or something like that.
YESSSSSSS :3:3:3:3
Either way, let me know AS SOON as you get back here!
*RANTFATS* :C
Powerful rich civilized fuckups/Republicans/Americans/Extremists of any sort are messing with the force is all.
Throwing it out of balance.
<--yoda
<--proof: fennec ears resemblance to yoda ears
..
yes.
But don't worry it's a healthy dose at least while I'm medicated
<3<3<3<33333
D:
But I think your problem was having as much hope as you did in the first place that all these facts are still making you mad.
It's a tough choice...have faith in mankind, only to be let down vs. having little faith in mankind, only to be occasionally surprised. I'm sure there's some kind of grey, middle ground but that'll come.
I've got a pretty heavy practical mindset. Any prosperous, developed nation is going to have problems like these. Pop culture is a beast that you can't kill...unless you can shift the nation's priorities to something more pressing. Say, survival?
Hello Fight Club.
Instead of the more radical solutions, I abide the hopelessness that little can be done and am pretty much along for the ride making it the best I can for me, those I care about, and anyone else that I can be sure isn't part of some scam. If I can make waves and bump some people off their single-minded track along the way, then I'll be all the happier :)
Challenge me.
Not limited knowledge, i.e. the ability to selectively read minds, but full knowledge, meaning all thoughts in all minds as they occur.
What is that thing though?
I added you on MSN, by the way, as well as Last.fm. Hope you don't mind!
But dude, keep using buzz words like complacency and together we'll shirk self-destructive tendencies of habit! Damn you 9 to 5! Damn you evenings after a meaningless job when you're too tired to do anything! I pray that I'll have the balls to become a starving artist :D Though I feel like that may require picking up drug addiction along the way...
And uh yeah I guess I would go probably, since I'd probably regret it forever if I didn't.
Yeah, you're absolutely right about the second sentence...but I just don't get people who WOULDN'T regret it. Like, it seriously makes me reconsider their worth as a human :P
In the analysis of risk, we have to note potentialities. Even if the probability is low, if the reward is great, one will take on the odds.
Isn't it possible to reach heady heights of bliss here on Earth in this flawed human existence? You're assuming that everybody here is doomed to a life of grueling cubicle monkeydom and spiritual emptiness ^_^
Plus isn't like 99.9999 etc. % of space just that -- empty space? With, like, some rocks and burning gas in it? Even those pretty NASA pictures are totally colorized and artistically enhanced to make them "prettier."
Hehe, I guess for me it would come down to the nature of the aliens here -- if I thought I were truly compatible with them, I might just hop aboard. If I'm condemned to experience the myriad revelations of the universe more or less alone, that seems worse to me than any kind of cubicle prison here on Earth. I think the whole of humanity (not to mention the natural wonders of the planet Earth!) offers just as infinite a set of potentials for discovery and growth than all of space, especially when you consider you get maybe 75 years to take in all you can. I'm more the type to enjoy a deep conversation getting to know someone than going out to climb a mountain, though -- that probably informs my position here.
Maybe that line of thought isn't what your friends had in mind when they answered, but I can at least see a legitimate argument for the "stay" side of things. Then again, I'm a pragmatist/realist at heart, so I'm probably biased against hypothetical situations relying on vacationing aliens anyway ^_^ I reckon folks stand a lot more chance of leading happy, fulfilled lives if they push themselves to break out of the mainstream and explore and grow in the world around them rather than waiting for space men to come pull them out of their day-to-day grind <3
Let me deduce what I feel is the most attractive draw of this question. Sure it's an escapist fantasy removing people from any and all pressing issues and obligations. But additionally, and most appealing I think, it's the wish fulfilled for every kid who's stared for hours at the night sky, heart pounding with pent up desire to explore and know, while simultaneously breaking with the knowledge he'll probably never get the chance.
I agree that you could probably never experience all the majestic and intimate wonders of Earth. But, I've already devoted a 1/4 of my life to this one planet and that's an unfair amount compared to how much time we have left to explore and get know the countless other planets/wonders. I'm taking the chance that those celestial wonders do exist since there are space-fairing aliens who are making such a proposal.
Going is fulfilling the unbridled need of mankind to explore and learn. There are things bigger than yourself, bigger than friends, family, and love. This is paving the way for all mankind. You'd be a liaison for our entire existence. In fact, I'd like to think your loved ones would be proud (and tearful, yes) for you to have this once in a lifetime opportunity. That they would want you to go...
I did make some clearly jaded comments about succumbing to the rat race and you are right that there are people who attain genuine happiness. But there will always be demands, obligations, or needs more meaningful and more powerful than whatever anyone has acquired for themselves. I feel this is one example. Is there anything you see as bigger than yourself that you would leave happiness for?
Be hypothetical :)
The hypothetical you pose is tricky because it entails a few other assumptions -- the presence of intelligent life to take you along for the ride entails that there is other intelligent life out there, for starters. I guess my lukewarm initial enthusiasm for a spacebound life is based on an assumption that I don't suppose there is much intelligent life out there (at least on a level that we would be able to relate to and interact with). I kind of see space as a bunch of rocks floating in the void, so being on Earth is less a constraint and more of a blessing.
I think the other thing that really catches me with this is that in my experiences traveling, it's always been awesome to go to new places, meet new people, and see new things, but it always feels amazing to come back home. I've been very fortunate in the amount of travel I've gotten to experience, I've lived abroad, etc., and it usually totally blows my mind wide open, then makes me really glad I live where I do.
I suppose home could be some big boat floating its way through space, but to me a lifetime of constant travel seems kind of exhausting. After so much new stimulus with no down-time to process it all, I think I'd reach saturation and numbness would set in.
Haha, and if I'm the emissary chosen to represent all humanity, mankind is SO fucked ^_^
You're very right that I come at this question with unshared assumptions. I was going to compare our differing attraction levels to space exploration as a sign of our optimistic/pessimistic outlooks on life. But I'm already conceding that idea in favor of the probable fact that the potentials of space have been over-glamorized for me as a result of pop culture and all the delightful science fiction out there.
Another excellent point about the great desire to return home, the ability to rest, and renew oneself. You COULD draw assumptions that the ship would be your home or eventually you could choose a planet to reside on. Personally, I accepted that this would be a struggle, just as I'm sure I'd miss my family but I think being aware of these issues prior would probably aid in adjustment.
Oh please, from the way you've carried on this discussion I have no questions about your representative abilities ;)
I just can't think of what that might be at the moment ^_^
I'm the kind of geek who has a whole bookmark bar of science news, which I check religiously. (The kind of geek who is, say, totally fucking psyched about the Mars landing in 10 days!) I'm fascinated by the exploration of the universe, so of course the opportunity to actually go DO it - and to a degree never before imagined - would be spellbinding.
BUT if I accept this particular offer, all my amazing experiences die with me. All the wonder, all the knowledge, all the beauty, and all the wisdom gained ends with my solitary demise. Neither my inner scientist nor my inner artist finds this satisfying! The great thing about being an explorer is the legacy you leave. You're sharing, you're contributing, you're connecting to something beyond yourself. Without this, most of the appeal evaporates (at least for me).
What's left, basically, is hedonism. "Yay breathtaking nebulae, yay unified theory of physics, yay sexy alien boys." Which is still fun, yeah, but not fun enough to cancel out the sorrow of forever abandoning all the people and places I've ever loved. Not even close
(By the way, good question. It messed with my head!)
I'll fully admit the notion of not being able to share any of my experiences caused serious deliberation. Feel free to call me out on this, but in this hypothetical I feel like you would be allowed to bring stuff: photos of loved ones, massive amounts of blank notebooks, etc. This may be a considered a "condition" and does stray from the fascinating personality determining results of the original question, but I feel like being able to record all the experiences with hope mankind will reach the same level of development and find it all, then it'd be all the more worth it.
But even still, if you couldn't record all your experiences imagine what life would be like on Earth the rest of your life. Every person on Earth knowing you had the opportunity and turned it down. I think, to a degree, they would like to live vicariously through someone going.
I mean, you'll also go through the entire rest of your normal life...sitting in traffic, probably not traveling as much as you always dreamed, stuck in the same city for most your life, and as possibly cynical as this sounds, only very few people achieve greatness, notoriety, or effect any great change. So when you compare the high probability of what your life may be like here against what it COULD be like up in the stars, I just don't see it as a choice I could turn down.
Still, you bring up some very valid points which I'm sure I'd be forced to consider much more rigorously once the time actually comes ;)
I would say "Yes," say my goodbyes, and head off. There may be a Delphic ambiguity in "never return." It might be like Heraclitus' river, and I can return to Earth, just not the same state as when I left.
However, even if there's no way to ever return to human society, I'd say "Yes." I think Socrates, Leibniz, and Lovecraft would all have said "Yes." Diogenes would have said "No," then regretted it secretly.
But my fear is that the universe won't prove too impressive. I'm not trying to be cynical, but what if all of the breathtaking height and depth of existence is unsatisfying compared to one afternoon reading in bed?
Returning to earth, but NOT in human form is not something I considered but now that you mention it, seems quite possible. An interesting consideration. In fact, I see a movie here...
Being underwhelmed after making the decision IS a risk, but I think the very nature of the alien's offer is clue enough that it'd be worth your time. Plus, you say you may miss reading in bed. Well, if the Universe is as uninteresting as we may imagine, then think how wonderful it'd be sitting amongst the Eye of God nebula reading? Oh...there may be no books. Well, maybe you can spend that time writing then ;)
What if having full access to the secrets of the universe would dehumanize me, or destroy my creative side?
To experience the infinite wonders seems to imply that all would return to being a united state. Thus what you propose, while still tempting, would require a shattering of a basic system of knowledge, and thus might cause a loss of self in the process. And I like my Self.
It seems you're expressing a lot of fear or trepidation about these potential discoveries. Perhaps it was my phrasing that lead you down that certain course, but I never meant to imply the aliens would your human ability to soak in knowledge, enabling you to understand EVERYTHING. Omniscience was not an original precept of my question, but I find it interesting you went there.
I also find it interesting, for how faintly we could possibly know the ramifications of knowing everything, you were so quickly inclined to think it would have negative ramifications.
More to my point, it is nearly impossible for a single person to experience all the wonders of Earth. So with the Universe being so infinitesimally larger, I figured having aliens offering to tour you around and let you see as much as humanly possible, that would be a rare, special opportunity.
I teach logic, so I take words seriously. Which, losing all nuance as text on the net does, sounds like I'm mocking ya. I ain't!
This is just to say that "infinite" has major connotations.
In most societies (even, I would argue, the post-Enlightenment West), there is an understanding of a shamanic experience. Certain people by personal will or fate's fiat will be thrust into a deeper understanding and come back to society altered. This could even be seen in individuals such as Einstein.
Epimenides said "Only the educated are free" (and his tattooed corpse may have been evidence that he was initiated into magical rites from the East), but Solmon bar David would have perhaps shot back that with much wisdom, comes much sorrow.
Have you read Watchmen? The character Dr. Manhattan experiences nearly the same scenario as what you outline.
What you're describing would be understood by some to be the opportunity for a shamanic experience, if one were allowed to return. Otherwise, this would be a near-kabbalistic experience - in your previous sphere of influence, your self would be disappear. So in order to attain this enlightenment, you would have to end all worldly ties, becoming in essence dead to your previous relationships.
The oldest and strongest human emotion is fear, according to Lovecraft, and of that, fear of the unknown. Perhaps the second greatest impulse is hope. If one has easy access to all aspects of the universe, one might lose that sense of fear, and with it, the human aspect of hope. What if the universe reveals itself as uncaring, immense, and ugly once seen? One may not return to society, but out in space one would be shattered.
It's akin to finding a laptop will all of your future experiences already laid out. If you read it, you discover your unalterable path of events, right down to the thoughts you'd think. Terrifying.
But the potential for betterment is still a temptation. What if seeing the universe brings enlightenment that is harmonious with human ideals?
The risk is great, because to know all is also to remember what it was to be human, and to know that which you could never have again.
"If one has easy access to all aspects of the universe, one might lose that sense of fear, and with it, the human aspect of hope." for instance. What's to say hope and fear are tied in the way you substantiate that if one goes under, so must the other? So much of your response is theoretical - no, I wouldn't even say that as there doesn't seem to be much tangibly supporting a theory. Many of your conclusions are fairly loose ideas it seems - fairly debatable ones, too.
Don't get me wrong, I like your mind and the perspectives you provide, but I would love to see your conclusions reached with clearer, cause-effect reasoning.
Please don't take this as beratement or anything! I'm really excited to further these discussions, but where they stand now we would be stuck in a mire of clarifying the most basic fundamentals that it would take so long (in this medium, at least) I would weary pretty quickly :(
"Infinite" implies outside of human ability. So what you originally offered needed clarification, which you gave in another response.
Scattered my responses indeed were, but it's because my initial response was "Yeah!" and then I re-read it and saw "Infinite" and I suddenly sucked in my breath.
To experience the infinite would require moving beyond human abilities.
re: hope and fear.
"Hope" is most commonly defined as "desire accompanied by expectation of or belief in fulfillment; expectation of fulfillment or success"
"Fear" is most commonly defined as "an unpleasant often strong emotion caused by anticipation or awareness of danger; anxious concern."
There's my link. Both involve uncertainty. Fear is a negative response to uncertainty; hope is overcoming that fear and acting with optimism about future events.
One does not have hope about a situation one does not fear. I have no fear that the sun will rise tomorrow, nor do I truly "hope" it does. Wisely or not, I've accepted it as axiomatic that the sun will rise.
But whether I will continue having my current job, which I love, I have both fear and hope. I fear about the state of the school where I teach, but I continue to work for next year's curriculum, schedule, etc. because I have hope my job will endure.
I fear mankind's potential for destruction, and my own failings, but I don't succumb to that fear either by lethargy or worse yet, exiting life, because I have hope that either things will get better, or more likely, I will manage to find my way through life, achieve my values, and have a pleasant experience even at death.
If I were offered a guided tour of the universe on the merits of another society's achievements, and one that has the promise of the "infinite," I would no longer have anything to fear. So, out goes hope. I have nothing to overcome.
However, let's tweak the thought experiment. Let's say a benevolent race, advanced over 20,000 years from ours, offers to take me on a species exchange program. Their motives as far as we can tell are benevolent.
But, they warn me the universe is still a dangerous place.
In that case, I'd say "Hell yes." Because there would still be motivation, uncertainty, and a place to achieve.
Mmm...I see what you did there. And to be frank, I think you may be unnecessarily polarizing the discourse. Can't all human attributes/emotions be quantified as "the anticipation of ____."? Or is fear and hope the two basest human emotional responses to all variables in the world?
Ok, your new quandary shares the fundamental principle and excitement of mine, but there would no longer be granting of infinite knowledge (which I didn't intend) and there's the added component of danger. See, I don't think the latter is necessary. The very fact you are foraying into such a mystery will immediately spark mankind's fear of the unknown. Unfamiliarity with EVERYTHING you encounter will keep you on your toes.
Now another reason for going, possibly supplemental of hope, is your obligation to the human race. Being this is the first time this opportunity's been presented, don't you OWE it mankind to serve as a sort of ambassador? All of your species may be being judged by you and your actions while out touring/trading places. That right there is a big responsibility - a goal requiring constant thought and achievement.
If I ever finish my short work on inductive logic, I'll send you a copy. It'll be written in brief, declarative statements a la Wittgenstein.
Jersey Cat finally shuts up........now.
What you conducted was a thought experiment, and like any experiment both the terminology and the boundaries are up for testing.
Of course, ye were just posting a journal entry. I took it a bit too seriously.
But that's the joy of thought experiments. They have factors that need to be addressed just like any other.
Take the Spear of Lucretius. Lucretius was a Roman poet/philosopher who set out to prove that the universe is infinite. He did so by asking what would happen if one went to the edge of the universe and cast out a spear.
If it bounced back, that would show that the universe had a boundary. But a boundary can only exist if there's something beyond it.
If it kept sailing, that would show that there was more space through which to travel, proving that the universe was infinite.
However, he left out another option: what if the spear simply ceased to exist when it reached a certain point?
Avicenna did the same thing when considering human consciousness. Imagine that each of your senses, one by one, drop away. First you lose your eyesight. You still have your other senses, so your consciousness does not disappear. Then, imagine that your hearing goes, and so forth - even sense of balance! Would consciousness end, or would you simply be a mind trapped with no sense data?
Actually, Avicenna didn't note the sense of balance. Instead, he suspended this senseless entity in nothingness, the Floating Man experiment so to speak. But he didn't need to go that far. If we remove all sense of balance and touch, it would likely be equivalent.
Knowing me, however, even if the "infinite" was still there, I'd probably say "Yes."
But I might be walking into a Wondrous Hell, where I can never go back to the comfort of the finite!
And that sucks!!!
Yes, I agree. An opportunity that grand I could never turn down regardless of the danger. To think I would spend the rest of my life stuck in traffic, in a cubicle, abiding routine for 60 more years when I COULD be experiencing such unimaginable wonders out there would drive me crazy.