FA+
Shop
Best, worst, overrated and underrated villains!
13 years ago
I made a forum post with all this and it was just too good to go to waste!
This is my list of the top five of each category.
Now, there are some fanboys who WILL be pissed off at some of my comments, so be warned...
Best-
1: Megatron, Transformers. The beauty of this is, I could point to nearly any example! But my two favorites are Beast Wars' Megatron because of his ability to manipulate his own troops' treachery into overall benefit, because of his decidedly patriotic motivations (Uplifting Predacons from 2nd Class citizenship) and let us not forget the unforgettable 'Yeeees...'. Second favorite is Megatron from Transformers: Prime. He too began as a patriot. A champion of the people. A gladiator who fought for fun and entertainment. But his hopes and dreams were smashed and he turned bitter and vengeful. A very well developed villain.
2: Judge Frollo, The Hunchback of Notre Dam. A man torn apart between his natural instincts and his discipline, who struggles to do what he believes to be integral to keeping law and order and yet knows full well in his heart of hearts that what he's doing is monstrous and feels helpless to stem the tide of circumstance. In the end, the Sin of Wrath became his own undoing.
3: The Sith Triumvirate, Knights of the Old Republic 2. Each of them is a fascinating sort of villain. One is a woman who through intense manipulation and guidance, has ensured that the Galaxy will have able defenders and a chance to survive a coming storm. Another is a man whose will is all that keeps him together and burning with an intense hatred for that which he feels is unjust and cruel. And lastly, a man who has become so twisted that he is more a *force* unto himself than a man. A power beyond the scope of imagination, and yet at the same time, a slave to his hunger.
4: Dimitri 'Raven' Ravinof, Snow Crash. An enormous Aleut who drives a motorcycle with a sidecar carrying a live tactical nuclear warhead he boosted from a submarine whose entire crew he murdered. EEG nodes in his skull are wired to the nuke. If he dies, the nuke goes off. So nobody at all is capable of killing him without his nuclear umbrella. Though personally strong and tough, he wields very little power over men, so in the same way he uses a kayak to cross the ocean on currents, he latched onto a megalomaniac with a vision of world conquest via an ancient information virus. Raven knows that he can go far if he works with the guy. He's cruel, he's vicious, he's intelligent and his numero uno dream? Nuke America.
5: Biff/Griff/Buford Tannen, Back to the Future trilogy. Alpha of his little pack. Sad little king of a sad little hill, but so full of piss and vinegar that he can't even remember metaphors properly. In all the myriad ways the cosmos may conform, only one outcome sees him friendly, and by the time he's older, he's descended back into a bitterness so deep he's willing to cease to exist if only he could have had a better life. A bully at heart, and yet clearly has a side to him that *wants* to be the good guy, as evidenced in the first and third movies. There's a lot more depth than meets the eye, and he's memorable as all get out in any era!
Worst-
1: Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies. A thinly veiled stab at a real life network executive. This villain's master plans revolve around stoking up hostilities between superpowers in order to sell newspapers. No, really... That's it. His motivations are never explored, nor even hinted at. His hands-on approach, while admirable, isn't enough to make up for the fact he's just a straw man of Rupert Murdoch.
2: King Sombra, My Little Pony; Friendship is Magic. For a series that has made leaps and bounds in character development in a show intended for children, this villain falls very, VERY short. Even more disappointing is the fact that we know the writing staff can do better. Nightmare Moon wanted nighttime eternal, Discord wished to sow chaos and terror, Chrysalis desired to feed her brood, Trixie was a showboat and Gilda was a grouch. King Sombra (Whose name implies he already ruled) took over and banished the Crystal Empire because.... muahaha...? There could have been plenty of times he could have enjoyed development, but such was not the case.
3: Bowser, Super Mario Brothers. Talk about a character who DESPERATELY needs to get a freaking life. Bowser's motivation has always been, first and foremost... Step 1: Kidnap Princess Peach. Step 2: ??????? Step 3: Take over Mushroom Kingdom! Bowser has a small eternity each and every time he kidnaps her to force her to marry him, force her to turn over control of her kingdom, woo and charm her or whatever. He squanders this time while Mario inexorably mows down Bowser's legions (Which itself makes his leadership exceedingly poor) and eventually defeats him. Bowser, a gigantic monster with firebreath, an armored hide and a kingdom of his own, cannot defeat a portly plumber. Add to the weird issues at work that allows him to forget all that and enjoy a friendly game of golf, tennis or cart racing, and you have a shabby villain indeed.
4: Exodus, Ultima 3. What we're told to expect? A demonic entity that is the offspring of the two most evil mages to ever walk the face of the Earth. What the buildup is? A mastermind who is so devious that even the floor obeys his command, destroying your party more easily than anything they've faced! What we get? A computer that's defeated by feeding it punch cards.
...
Feel cheated yet? I know I did.
5: A tie between Carter Burke and Colonel Miles Quaritch. James Cameron is like the Blizzard of the movie world. Good at three things: Streamlining, ripping off juuuust enough that you know exactly where the fuck it's from and making money. Carter and Miles both prove that Cameron knows nothing about BOTH how the military works and how corporations work. Oh, do not get me wrong for an instant, Cameron is a *master* filmmaker. But a storyteller...? No. Burke's motivations are to bring back something that has proven to be so troublesome, so loathsome that just ONE of them were responsible for the destruction of a multi-billion dollar spacecraft and nearly all hands. Hey Cameron! Companies have something called a cost/benefit analysis. If something is a proven risk, a company will avoid it like the plague. And as for Colonel Characterture, the man is more disappointingly hollow than a chocolate Easter Bunny and more shallow than a puddle. He's not even a character so much as he is a prop that moves by itself. Both of these men are highly disappointing.
Overrated-
1: Kratos, God of War. Let's not mince words here. Kratos is a villain. He's the main character of the 'story' of God of War, but he is as villainous as they come. He's a murderer, a psycho, a monster, a dickhead, an asshole and about as emotionally and mentally believable as Colonel Quaritch. Kratos is to anyone who will defend him and the God of War games as Bella Swann of the Twilight novels is to people who enjoy those books. One through which reader or player can vicariously live out a fantasy of dominance, control and being the object of desire. Kratos deserves not an ounce of the praise and accolades heaped at his feet and he'll always be a villain in my book. A GROSSLY overrated one at that.
2: Freddy Krueger, Nightmare on Elm Street. What began as a terrifying villain from whom there was no escape, now we have only a half-baked reboot and on the tail end, some really disappointing sequels. A victim of his own success, Freddy became less a menace and more a cartoon character made flesh. It would have been nice to see all the aspects of a killer who stalks you in your sleep more fully explored rather than devolving into comedy.
3: Jason Voorhees, Friday the 13th. How can we bring more understanding between us and people with Downs Syndrome? Why, turn one into a hockey mask-wearing, teleporting murderer of course! Ice-thin revenge motivations and a really sick Oedipus complex leave you really wanting more in a villain. If you want a horrifying, inexorable force to be reckoned with, look to the Necrons of Warhammer 40,000. Not a character written by a chump who was creeped out by kids with Downs Syndrome.
4: Sepiroth, Final Fantasy 7. Speaking of Oedipus complexes, this guy is loved mostly because he is a... ugh... do I really have to say it...?... because he is a... 'Bishie' and because he has good chemistry with Cloud Strife, who himself is pretty overrated since anyone half as emotionally troubled as he is wouldn't have the kind of combat prowess as he does. Sepiroth has only a few things going for him... the Cloud Chemistry, the daikatana he buried in Aeris' back and a kickass theme song. But these things do not a villain make. His motivation was the tired old 'World destroying' but the veneer we're given is so thin he might as well just be doing it because someone laughed at his wiener as a kid.
5: Sara Kerrigan, Starcraft. Blizzard's a repeat offender... Kerrigan has no other goal other than to increase the swarm and control the Koprulu sector. Admittedly, She's had plenty of success in trying to reach her goal (Starcraft: Broodwar), though whenever someone is going to talk about her achievements, they make her sound like a character from a Michael Bay movie(Michael Bay=tons of explosions, Kerrigan = tons of casualties). So what? Nothing she has done makes me empathize with her. Nothing she says or does makes me want to laugh and the most memorable thing about her is her monstrous appearance rather than anything *about* her. Worse still, she's a bit of a Mary Sue in that she's some super-special-awesome 'chosen one' who has the power to stop the coming bad guys. The connection she has to the main protagonist (Jim Raynor) is for the most part through an awkward love story. Finally, what's so interesting about a villain who's a complete monster? Unless the good guys does something to make her into a human again (Starcraft II: Wings of Liberty), she will always be an infested Terran, which means her actions and interactions will be very predictable and repetitive, and she will show no signs of being human, other than her humanoid appearance.
Underrated-
1: John Doe, Se7en. A complicated man who believes the world has fallen to corruption and the only way to wake it up is to make living and grisly representations of the Seven Deadly Sins. He picked his victims carefully and masterminded a plot to undo a good man and police detective. Even though he only lasted the one movie, he was fully committed to his goal, to the point that he knew his life was the final part of his gruesome masterpiece. He deserves more notoriety than he presently has.
2: The Kurgen, The Highlander. It doesn't get much more badass, villainous and dismissively overlooked. Killing the hero (the first time). Abusing prostitutes. Living as an immortal. Making lewd gestures at nuns. Sword fighting. Delivering great one-liners. Raping the woman (He believed) of a man he just decapitated. And most of this done while listening to Queen. Clancy Brown's portrayal of the Kurgan is hard to top when it comes to villainy. As a warrior who used to toss babies to hungry dogs, the Kurgan survives the centuries by killing other immortals for the sake of receiving "the prize." To receive the ultimate Quickening, however, means the Kurgan must face Connor MacLeod in combat once more. And though he failed, he still lives on in many hearts and minds as a terrifying and wild villain.
3: Vincent, Collateral. Tom Cruise gets a lot of hate, mostly because of his strange activities when not acting. But this is no way to judge his performances, and he has put out some brilliant ones over the years. Probably his best since Rain Man and Vanilla Sky is his portrayal of contract killer Vincent in Michael Mann's Collateral. Vincent is so memorable because of how he changes from an articulate, insightful commentator on life one minute, to a fast, brutal assassin in the next, with no changeover period. He takes apart the reasons his job does not affect him emotionally with precise and reasonable logic, but there are moments throughout the film when Max (Jamie Foxx) appears to successfully reason with him in a way that gives him pause. This side of him finally comes out completely, as fatigue takes over and he allows Max to get away alive, before dying himself – as if to say, "it was only business". Cruise manages to play the villain of both an action thriller and a crime drama in one brilliant movie.
4: Lady Eboshi, Princess Mononoke. Here's a woman who I pause to call a villainess. It's more appropriate to call her an antagonist. She's pure pragmatism and ambition but in spite of her drive to succeed and make something of herself and her town, she is compassionate to her fellow humans. She brought harem women out of their lives of prostitution to earn an honest living and she saved a bunch of lepers and gave them both shelter and purpose. Yes, she did not try to understand the Forest or its guardian spirit. Yes, she disregarded Ashitaka's advice every time he dispensed it, but was she evil? Oh no. She most assuredly was not. *That* is the mark of a well-made antagonist.
5: Zira, Lion King 2. Exiled from Pride rock for the crime of staying loyal to Scar in the face of disaster, she and her supporters manage to live in the harshest land and thrive on the edge. Fueled with a hatred so deep and bitter that while she loves her children, she would place them in harm's way if it meant destroying Simba, the undoer of Scar's regime. A hatred so vast that she would rather let herself fall to certain doom rather than be saved by the child of Scar's unmaker. Her motives beyond revenge are clear. Rule the Pride Lands through her son, Kovu, who she has invested all her wisdom, strength and passion into. While not the deepest character, she's often thrown under the bus as two-dimensional. Her *thinking* is more two dimensional, but her character has more facets to it than first glance suggests.
There you have it!
This is my list of the top five of each category.
Now, there are some fanboys who WILL be pissed off at some of my comments, so be warned...
Best-
1: Megatron, Transformers. The beauty of this is, I could point to nearly any example! But my two favorites are Beast Wars' Megatron because of his ability to manipulate his own troops' treachery into overall benefit, because of his decidedly patriotic motivations (Uplifting Predacons from 2nd Class citizenship) and let us not forget the unforgettable 'Yeeees...'. Second favorite is Megatron from Transformers: Prime. He too began as a patriot. A champion of the people. A gladiator who fought for fun and entertainment. But his hopes and dreams were smashed and he turned bitter and vengeful. A very well developed villain.
2: Judge Frollo, The Hunchback of Notre Dam. A man torn apart between his natural instincts and his discipline, who struggles to do what he believes to be integral to keeping law and order and yet knows full well in his heart of hearts that what he's doing is monstrous and feels helpless to stem the tide of circumstance. In the end, the Sin of Wrath became his own undoing.
3: The Sith Triumvirate, Knights of the Old Republic 2. Each of them is a fascinating sort of villain. One is a woman who through intense manipulation and guidance, has ensured that the Galaxy will have able defenders and a chance to survive a coming storm. Another is a man whose will is all that keeps him together and burning with an intense hatred for that which he feels is unjust and cruel. And lastly, a man who has become so twisted that he is more a *force* unto himself than a man. A power beyond the scope of imagination, and yet at the same time, a slave to his hunger.
4: Dimitri 'Raven' Ravinof, Snow Crash. An enormous Aleut who drives a motorcycle with a sidecar carrying a live tactical nuclear warhead he boosted from a submarine whose entire crew he murdered. EEG nodes in his skull are wired to the nuke. If he dies, the nuke goes off. So nobody at all is capable of killing him without his nuclear umbrella. Though personally strong and tough, he wields very little power over men, so in the same way he uses a kayak to cross the ocean on currents, he latched onto a megalomaniac with a vision of world conquest via an ancient information virus. Raven knows that he can go far if he works with the guy. He's cruel, he's vicious, he's intelligent and his numero uno dream? Nuke America.
5: Biff/Griff/Buford Tannen, Back to the Future trilogy. Alpha of his little pack. Sad little king of a sad little hill, but so full of piss and vinegar that he can't even remember metaphors properly. In all the myriad ways the cosmos may conform, only one outcome sees him friendly, and by the time he's older, he's descended back into a bitterness so deep he's willing to cease to exist if only he could have had a better life. A bully at heart, and yet clearly has a side to him that *wants* to be the good guy, as evidenced in the first and third movies. There's a lot more depth than meets the eye, and he's memorable as all get out in any era!
Worst-
1: Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies. A thinly veiled stab at a real life network executive. This villain's master plans revolve around stoking up hostilities between superpowers in order to sell newspapers. No, really... That's it. His motivations are never explored, nor even hinted at. His hands-on approach, while admirable, isn't enough to make up for the fact he's just a straw man of Rupert Murdoch.
2: King Sombra, My Little Pony; Friendship is Magic. For a series that has made leaps and bounds in character development in a show intended for children, this villain falls very, VERY short. Even more disappointing is the fact that we know the writing staff can do better. Nightmare Moon wanted nighttime eternal, Discord wished to sow chaos and terror, Chrysalis desired to feed her brood, Trixie was a showboat and Gilda was a grouch. King Sombra (Whose name implies he already ruled) took over and banished the Crystal Empire because.... muahaha...? There could have been plenty of times he could have enjoyed development, but such was not the case.
3: Bowser, Super Mario Brothers. Talk about a character who DESPERATELY needs to get a freaking life. Bowser's motivation has always been, first and foremost... Step 1: Kidnap Princess Peach. Step 2: ??????? Step 3: Take over Mushroom Kingdom! Bowser has a small eternity each and every time he kidnaps her to force her to marry him, force her to turn over control of her kingdom, woo and charm her or whatever. He squanders this time while Mario inexorably mows down Bowser's legions (Which itself makes his leadership exceedingly poor) and eventually defeats him. Bowser, a gigantic monster with firebreath, an armored hide and a kingdom of his own, cannot defeat a portly plumber. Add to the weird issues at work that allows him to forget all that and enjoy a friendly game of golf, tennis or cart racing, and you have a shabby villain indeed.
4: Exodus, Ultima 3. What we're told to expect? A demonic entity that is the offspring of the two most evil mages to ever walk the face of the Earth. What the buildup is? A mastermind who is so devious that even the floor obeys his command, destroying your party more easily than anything they've faced! What we get? A computer that's defeated by feeding it punch cards.
...
Feel cheated yet? I know I did.
5: A tie between Carter Burke and Colonel Miles Quaritch. James Cameron is like the Blizzard of the movie world. Good at three things: Streamlining, ripping off juuuust enough that you know exactly where the fuck it's from and making money. Carter and Miles both prove that Cameron knows nothing about BOTH how the military works and how corporations work. Oh, do not get me wrong for an instant, Cameron is a *master* filmmaker. But a storyteller...? No. Burke's motivations are to bring back something that has proven to be so troublesome, so loathsome that just ONE of them were responsible for the destruction of a multi-billion dollar spacecraft and nearly all hands. Hey Cameron! Companies have something called a cost/benefit analysis. If something is a proven risk, a company will avoid it like the plague. And as for Colonel Characterture, the man is more disappointingly hollow than a chocolate Easter Bunny and more shallow than a puddle. He's not even a character so much as he is a prop that moves by itself. Both of these men are highly disappointing.
Overrated-
1: Kratos, God of War. Let's not mince words here. Kratos is a villain. He's the main character of the 'story' of God of War, but he is as villainous as they come. He's a murderer, a psycho, a monster, a dickhead, an asshole and about as emotionally and mentally believable as Colonel Quaritch. Kratos is to anyone who will defend him and the God of War games as Bella Swann of the Twilight novels is to people who enjoy those books. One through which reader or player can vicariously live out a fantasy of dominance, control and being the object of desire. Kratos deserves not an ounce of the praise and accolades heaped at his feet and he'll always be a villain in my book. A GROSSLY overrated one at that.
2: Freddy Krueger, Nightmare on Elm Street. What began as a terrifying villain from whom there was no escape, now we have only a half-baked reboot and on the tail end, some really disappointing sequels. A victim of his own success, Freddy became less a menace and more a cartoon character made flesh. It would have been nice to see all the aspects of a killer who stalks you in your sleep more fully explored rather than devolving into comedy.
3: Jason Voorhees, Friday the 13th. How can we bring more understanding between us and people with Downs Syndrome? Why, turn one into a hockey mask-wearing, teleporting murderer of course! Ice-thin revenge motivations and a really sick Oedipus complex leave you really wanting more in a villain. If you want a horrifying, inexorable force to be reckoned with, look to the Necrons of Warhammer 40,000. Not a character written by a chump who was creeped out by kids with Downs Syndrome.
4: Sepiroth, Final Fantasy 7. Speaking of Oedipus complexes, this guy is loved mostly because he is a... ugh... do I really have to say it...?... because he is a... 'Bishie' and because he has good chemistry with Cloud Strife, who himself is pretty overrated since anyone half as emotionally troubled as he is wouldn't have the kind of combat prowess as he does. Sepiroth has only a few things going for him... the Cloud Chemistry, the daikatana he buried in Aeris' back and a kickass theme song. But these things do not a villain make. His motivation was the tired old 'World destroying' but the veneer we're given is so thin he might as well just be doing it because someone laughed at his wiener as a kid.
5: Sara Kerrigan, Starcraft. Blizzard's a repeat offender... Kerrigan has no other goal other than to increase the swarm and control the Koprulu sector. Admittedly, She's had plenty of success in trying to reach her goal (Starcraft: Broodwar), though whenever someone is going to talk about her achievements, they make her sound like a character from a Michael Bay movie(Michael Bay=tons of explosions, Kerrigan = tons of casualties). So what? Nothing she has done makes me empathize with her. Nothing she says or does makes me want to laugh and the most memorable thing about her is her monstrous appearance rather than anything *about* her. Worse still, she's a bit of a Mary Sue in that she's some super-special-awesome 'chosen one' who has the power to stop the coming bad guys. The connection she has to the main protagonist (Jim Raynor) is for the most part through an awkward love story. Finally, what's so interesting about a villain who's a complete monster? Unless the good guys does something to make her into a human again (Starcraft II: Wings of Liberty), she will always be an infested Terran, which means her actions and interactions will be very predictable and repetitive, and she will show no signs of being human, other than her humanoid appearance.
Underrated-
1: John Doe, Se7en. A complicated man who believes the world has fallen to corruption and the only way to wake it up is to make living and grisly representations of the Seven Deadly Sins. He picked his victims carefully and masterminded a plot to undo a good man and police detective. Even though he only lasted the one movie, he was fully committed to his goal, to the point that he knew his life was the final part of his gruesome masterpiece. He deserves more notoriety than he presently has.
2: The Kurgen, The Highlander. It doesn't get much more badass, villainous and dismissively overlooked. Killing the hero (the first time). Abusing prostitutes. Living as an immortal. Making lewd gestures at nuns. Sword fighting. Delivering great one-liners. Raping the woman (He believed) of a man he just decapitated. And most of this done while listening to Queen. Clancy Brown's portrayal of the Kurgan is hard to top when it comes to villainy. As a warrior who used to toss babies to hungry dogs, the Kurgan survives the centuries by killing other immortals for the sake of receiving "the prize." To receive the ultimate Quickening, however, means the Kurgan must face Connor MacLeod in combat once more. And though he failed, he still lives on in many hearts and minds as a terrifying and wild villain.
3: Vincent, Collateral. Tom Cruise gets a lot of hate, mostly because of his strange activities when not acting. But this is no way to judge his performances, and he has put out some brilliant ones over the years. Probably his best since Rain Man and Vanilla Sky is his portrayal of contract killer Vincent in Michael Mann's Collateral. Vincent is so memorable because of how he changes from an articulate, insightful commentator on life one minute, to a fast, brutal assassin in the next, with no changeover period. He takes apart the reasons his job does not affect him emotionally with precise and reasonable logic, but there are moments throughout the film when Max (Jamie Foxx) appears to successfully reason with him in a way that gives him pause. This side of him finally comes out completely, as fatigue takes over and he allows Max to get away alive, before dying himself – as if to say, "it was only business". Cruise manages to play the villain of both an action thriller and a crime drama in one brilliant movie.
4: Lady Eboshi, Princess Mononoke. Here's a woman who I pause to call a villainess. It's more appropriate to call her an antagonist. She's pure pragmatism and ambition but in spite of her drive to succeed and make something of herself and her town, she is compassionate to her fellow humans. She brought harem women out of their lives of prostitution to earn an honest living and she saved a bunch of lepers and gave them both shelter and purpose. Yes, she did not try to understand the Forest or its guardian spirit. Yes, she disregarded Ashitaka's advice every time he dispensed it, but was she evil? Oh no. She most assuredly was not. *That* is the mark of a well-made antagonist.
5: Zira, Lion King 2. Exiled from Pride rock for the crime of staying loyal to Scar in the face of disaster, she and her supporters manage to live in the harshest land and thrive on the edge. Fueled with a hatred so deep and bitter that while she loves her children, she would place them in harm's way if it meant destroying Simba, the undoer of Scar's regime. A hatred so vast that she would rather let herself fall to certain doom rather than be saved by the child of Scar's unmaker. Her motives beyond revenge are clear. Rule the Pride Lands through her son, Kovu, who she has invested all her wisdom, strength and passion into. While not the deepest character, she's often thrown under the bus as two-dimensional. Her *thinking* is more two dimensional, but her character has more facets to it than first glance suggests.
There you have it!
1. Megatron - Thank goodness. I was afraid you might put the awful Bayformers Megatron (whew!)
2. Judge Frollo - Awesome villain
3. Sith Triumvirate - Not Familiar
4. Dmitri Ravenof - NF
5. Biff Tannen - I don't think much of them, but to each their own.
Worst.
1. Elliot Carver - Actually he's based on British news mogul Robert Maxwell. I always thought he was supposed to be Ted Turner with a little Bill Gates thrown in. I agree that he's a bit too much of a transparent parody, and Bond villains should be more original.
2. King Sombra - I agree. He had NO development at all. In fact, I make fun of him here http://vvraith.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d5lp9u9 At least he had a cool voice.
3. Bowser - I don't know. Considering that he's an 8-Bit video game boss, I don't think he'd need development.
4. Exodus - NF
5. Carter Burke/Quarrich - Overall this is a good list, but I disagree on Burke. I like how he comes off as unassuming and nice, but turns out to be a villain. Also, Aliens was back when James Cameron had talent. Quaritch I do agree with. He's lame, has no charisma, and most of his dialogue is lifted from Bush's speeches. I think he gets a pass from even a lot of Avatar haters because he's a villain in a bad movie, and therefore supposedly ironically likable.
Overrated
1. Kratos - NF
2. Freddy Krueger - Personally, I don't like slasher movies so I agree
3. Jason - Likewise
4. Sepiroth - Aside from the soundtrack, I don't really get Final Fantasy
5. Sara Kerrigan - NF
Underrated
1. John Doe - Great movie, but he's one of those villains I find so detestable, that I cannot even like him in a villainous way.
2. Kurgen - Aw yeah, Clancy Brown is the man.
3. Vincent - I haven't seen this movie in ages, but I remember it being good.
4. Lady Eboshi - Great ambiguous character. This movie is Fern Gully with a brain.
5. Zira - You make a pretty good case for her, and I love her song.
1.
1. Megatron - Ah yeeeeees! The David Kay version! Hard to believe he also did Clank from the Ratchet games! Great job!
2. Judge Frollo - I'd also have to say on top of being one of the best, he was also underrated by many
3. Sith Triumvirate - Want to play the game
4. Dmitri Ravenof - NF
5. Biff Tannen - "Manure! I hate manure!" I liked the character, but it's hard for me to consider him a real villian with how comical he tends to be.
Worst.
1. Elliot Carver - NF
2. King Sombra - I need to watch more MLP... Didn't get to him yet.
3. Bowser - Yeah, he had the potential to be great... He looked quite epic as giga bowser in Smash bros. but throughout time he turned into a laughable villian.
4. Exodus - NF
5. Carter Burke/Quarrich - NF
Overrated
1. Kratos - THANK YOU! Finally someone who shares my views on him!
2. Freddy Krueger - Not into horror movies. I can't stop laughing at how lame they all are.
3. Jason - Same as above.
4. Sepiroth - Yes, yes, YES!! "But he's the hardest villian to beat!" High stats don't mean squat on how villianous a character is! I think he was needlessly overpowered. Look at the ones who came before him. Chaos created a savage time loop (FFI), The Emporer triumphed over Hell itself (FFII), The Void is the freakin' void and devours everything (FFIII), GOLBEZ and Zemus two very deadly individuals even coming from a superior race (FFIV, my favorite in the series), Exdeath had countless souls that fuelled him (FFV), Kefka pumped himself so full of magicite that if he were to take a crap that it would likely turn into a napalm the world has never seen (FFVI)... All have more reason to be more powerful than Stephanie... Err, I mean Sepiroth. He had epic music. What else you got momma's boy?
5. Sara Kerrigan - NF
Underrated
1. John Doe - NF
2. Kurgen - NF
3. Vincent - NF
4. Lady Eboshi - Oh! Yeah, she was cool! Want to watch that movie again!
5. Zira - I always thought Scar and Zira were among the best villians. Great choice!
1. Megatron - So long as it's not Bayfoirmers shit verion
2. Judge Frollo - Book's better.
3. Sith Triumvirate - Sorry I disagree. Palpatine Uber alles!
4. Dmitri Ravenof - NF
5. Biff Tannen - Biff's really just a jerk. Amusing but not fun or really enjoyable
Worst.
1. Elliot Carver - I argee. They should have just made Rupert Murdoch the villain. Way more beliable.
2. King Sombra - Eh, don't watch too much Pony
3. Bowser - Dunno man. You played Super Mario Galaxy. The guy nearly becomes God. Plus Bowser's Inside Story is amazing
4. Exodus - NF
5. Carter Burke/Quarrich - Personally I would have made the "Soldiers" a more clear Blackwater expy (Because Private Military contracters really are awful, shady, and pretty much despicble.) Though I admit the concept is good in a way. Historically many companies during the colonial era employed their own standing armies/privateers/mercs/whatever.
Overrated
1. Kratos - I'd agrue this but you just flat out insulted me. Oh well I'll have my petty vengeance.
2. Freddy Krueger - THEY ONLY MADE ONE WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT CRAZY MAN?!
3. Jason - See above
4. Sepiroth - You never played FFVII did you? (Still my favourite FF villian is Eitehr Kefka or Vayne Solidor)
5. Sara Kerrigan - Nee dto finish WoL put come on. She was amazingly badass in brood War and a worthy successor to the Overmind.
Underrated
1. John Doe - Dunno about him being "Right" since his victims 'crimes' Where left fuzzy. Though unlike other psychos trying to make the world "Better' he at least reaconized he wasn't the paragon of virtue, which made him unique. Still, little hard to understand a guy who kills people for being "Fat" "Vain" and the like.
2. Kurgen - Clancy brown is God.
3. Vincent - Not familiar.
4. Lady Eboshi - Good movie and a good character, but Studio Ghibli is good with villains who are just misguided.
5. Zira - he only good part about he rmovie though was atching Andy Dick die. oh man I can remind and fats forward that part so many times. Never gets old~
I might post my own. I'll have to lmit myself oan per franchise basis or best will just "Batman's rogues gallery".
NEver played FF7, but watched Let's Plays of it. As for John Doe, it wasn't about those people in particular. It was about culture at large.
Not sure how well you payed attention. The whole point of Cloud's character was he wasn't even who he thought he was. He DOES get better via character developemnt, but the fucking Complication reverted him back because that's what idiots know.
Still, better ways to argue about society then just killing six people in symbolic ways.
Anyways, My list~
*Contains spoilers*
Best:
The Joker/Batman It wa storn between Two-Face and the Joker I'll go with Mr. J. because well...he's the perfect antithesis of batman. Batman is the Dark Knight, the humour, black clad shadow in the night protecting the innocent. The Joker? He dresses in garnish colours, tells jokes, and murders people. Why? Who knows. Hell maybe he he doesn't know. But what are his motivations? Who is he really? Again like Batman he is the antithesis: We don't know and it sure as shit isn't imporant. We like to think Men like Joker can't exist, but every once ina while something, even in our world shatters that image that bad things happen for a reason. Batman reprsents the best our society looks up to, He's rich, handsome charasmtic as Bruce Wayne but a black guardian angel as Batman, protecting the innocent, no matter the race or social class, risking his own neck, paying for his tools from his own pocket. The Joker on the other hand is humanity at it's worst. A psycho who kills people without rhyme, reason, regret or remorse. He's every psycho from history rolled into one nasty package. And he STILL gets all the best lines.
Emperor Palpatine: Now you may wonder why The Emperor and not Vader? Well I was tempted to put Vader but then I remembered the prequels and how they botched making Vader a tragic villian. Don't get me wrong, Empire did a good job and showing us taht under that scary black suit Vader was still human. Dark and twisted, yes, but human. The Emperor edges out for being well...The Head of State of the Galactic Empire. Thoughout the original trilogy Palpatine is treated like a Ghost. Raeely seen but his presence is everywhere. Every Stormtrooper, every TIE fighter, from the smallest Scout on his speederbike to the massive Star Destroyers. And whe he appeared in Jedi? he was simply an Old man dressed ina tattered, beta up hooded robe. A let down? Hell no. All those Stormtroopers standing at attention, the way Vader speaks to Palpaltine makes it clear this is the only man Vader answers to. The music, rather then the bombastic Imperial March is Palpatine's own theme, a dark, brooding low key number that screams "Sith Hymn". Like Kratos, Palpatine's character can be summed in a simple concept. Where as kratos is rage and brutality, Palpatine is mere "Power". Political Power, Mastery over the Force, the largest military force in a galaxy at his command, Palpatine represent unrestrained power, he wields it in all it's purest forms. he refer sto weapons of a more civilized age as "Toys'.
Petyr Baelish AKA "Littlefinger" A Song of Ice and Fire. Now I won't say much because huge spoilers but Littlefinger? if Machavalli wrote about one man in the Prince it was Littlefinger. A Nobleman from a lesser house he rises up Westeroses' food chain like a spider monkey on crack. It's amazing what a combination of backstabbing the right people and asskissing the other right people can do. Hell even when he plans geta wrench in the works? He rolls with the punches.
The Patriots Metal Gear Solid? *Warning spoilers but here we go" Who are the Patriots? Well there's two Patriots, the second incarnation? a System of AIs designed to run the world according to their maker, but would drift away from this purpose. Not out of malice, but and oversight. A computer glitching out. the first incarantion? A group of friends with lots of resources who wante dto make the world a better place, a place their mentor envisioned. However, politics entered the equation. the group became splintered over the ideals they wanted to uphold, each beleiving they where right and the other party was wrong. Every event up to Metal gear Solid 4 has been the result of these people. often feuding. The Patriots are in a way tragic. One would furfill his own nightmare, creating a WMD that could kill millions. Another would violate thier hippocratic oath and turn a man against his will into an undead machine. The Patriots are not great just great villians because of what they do; they're great villians because we also saw who they where at one point; idealists who wanted to ensure a better future. Politics, amibition, all of it corrupted this dream and turned into into a nightmare. Anyone can become the villain. They just need to be willing to realize thier ideals, no matter the cost.
Worst:
The Catalyst, Mass Effect 3 Okay...know what a REALLY bad idea is? Introducing a major character in your work, one who has literally affected fucking everything...literally moments before curtail call. Seriously Bioware what the flying fuck? Artistsic intrgeity my ass, this writing 101 bullshit. The Catalyst dumps a massive amount of backstory and wham...and we have literally no time to take it all in and regsiter it before it says "NOW CHOOSE!". Not only this this little fucknugget brat pretty much kill the menace of the Reapers ina few sentences, he pretty much takes the central themes of Mass Effect...then takes a piss on them. And he was barely foreshadowed. Seriously who the fuck? Oh yeah the Extended Cut DLC takes away your ability to shot the little asshole in the head. Thanks BioWare. Remind me to not buy Dragon Age 3.
Overrated: John Galt/Atlas Shrugged.: Megalomanaic cult leader who desires the destruction of civilization because it does not conform to his worldview, even if it kills countless people. Epouses ideals of individualism yet none of his followers ever utter a single word of disagreement. Oddly popular but I think the only cool thing about him is he's a political cult of perosnaility leader. Clever way or showing cults are not purely religious in nature. Still I don't get all this popularity. Tyler Durden at least gets cool lines.
Celine Dion from Titanic: "nuff said.
Underrated: The T-1000. Seriously...this guy took everything that made the Terminator in the first movie scary and ramped it up. He could be anyone, ANYTHING! He can sneka into anyplace by using the pipes or a crack in the wall. All but fucking invincible and relentless. One of the biggest complaints about the T-X was for an upgrade it was pretty much a step down.
"Death"/ Nyx Avatar/Ryoji from persona 3. So...The Harbinger of the End has arrived, and now he is completed. Now it's time to end the world!
Only...he doesn't want to anymore.
Part of The 13th Arcana was trapped in the PC, and by living life through his eyes Death, who then appears later as student becomes...a really nice guy. Sweet funny, bit of a ladiesman.
Thing is he still needs to kill us all and knows this. But that perosnaility of his? Not a facade?
During the final boss battle with Nyx Avatar the boss never sounds angry or "YOU WILL ALL DIE PATHETIC MAGGOTS!" Instead it comes across as remorseful. Ryoji Has become Death, his fate is to destroy humanity. But as he tells you how each of the Tarot Arcana can be interpreted about life's journey he expresses no joy, no anger. He's but a puppet in The Fall, doomed to try and murder the people he called friends, and play his part is exterminating our species. one he has grown to appreciate and love.
If that's not a sad fate I don't know what is.
Just because I insulted Kratos, and somehow, inadvertantly you and Elcid by proxy, doesn't really give cause to try 'counter trolling' since I wasn't trolling in the first place.
Galt wasn't a cult leader, but a revolutionary who was tired of a strictly collectivist, mediocre emphasis in society. He didn't want anyone to be killed, but knew that American society was doomed if it continued down its path. Besides, Che Guevera outright and personally MURDERED people who opposed him and his mug is plastered all over T-Shirts and coffee mugs now. And in the end of the book, the U.S. government *tortured* him. And not 'enhanced interrogation techniques' like sleep deprivation, I mean all out torture. Now since I have a mind of my own, I don't agree with more than half of the things in that book. I don't think that the extremes emphasized were good, as I prefer balance over all things. And while I perhaps don't have the full story on Kratos and Sepiroth, I sure as fuck know that's not John Galt you're talking about.
Now that that's out of the way...
I agree totally with the T-1000 and ME3.
If someone is being murdered and you tell as they're about to be stabbed "You deserve it" and walk away you are a sick person. Effectively that's what Galt did. he damned countless people, innocent people, children even, to slow, painful deaths because of petty politics. yes he was tortured, but Rand is crap writer who had to turn complex polotics and people into "Good guys vs. bad guys" and patronized me with making Collectivists ugly mustache twirlers and her heroes ubermench with ridiculously stupid names. Atlas Shrugged, politics aside, is terrible novel. characters should stop for 90 pages to rant about their beliefs. People are complex, and characters shouldn't have to state why they do things. It's bad writing and shows a pretty big contempt for your reader.
Sorry, sorta anal about that novel because I'm a literary snob. Again politics aside I find the writing awful.
Oh the Reapers were amazing until we found out their motives amounted to circular logic. I really wanted to pull the tirck you did on Preisdent Eden in Fallout 3 on it. Alas...I have to make a choice, none of them make a lick of sense.
I should add more, maybe put a *Real overrated* one like...
Mother Brain/MB: metroid: Okay, here's a bad guy who has basically been outclassed by "Everyone Else". Ridley is diant space dragon who don't stay dead. Dark Samus is basically a axe crazy monster running around looking like Samus, but Motehr BRain? Sure she destroyed the Chozo on Zebes and provides a Helluva boss fight but...well...like *many* other things Other M ruined her. MB is Motehr Brain clone...thing and in the last 15 minutes (sensinga pattern here?) literally her entire life story is told and why she is.And it's really lackluster. Look, storytelling needs something called pacing. Stretching it too thin risks your audience losing interest or fforgeting (See Lost) but trying to shove it all down at the same time does give it time to digest. To let it sink in and your brain to mull over it as it unfolds. craming it all in in the final 15-10 minutes? And expecting me to care about a character I've seen once,twice, MAYBE three times? Meh. So...because Mb is Motehr Brain and bceuase Ridley and Dark Samus this kind ruins the character. Not awful but kinda sad.
As for the T-1000 yeah...one of the reasons T3 was a terrible idea was it would be incsaely difficult to escalate from the T-1000. Possible, maybe. But the T-x had fatal weakness: it had a skeleton.
"Just because I insulted Kratos, and somehow, inadvertantly you and Elcid by proxy, doesn't really give cause to try 'counter trolling' since I wasn't trolling in the first place."
yes but did I openly insult you or those who share your beliefs? Did I attempt to discredit you before a real debate could happen, if at all?
I'm not pissed at you not liking Kratos or Sephiroth, I hardly care for the latter anymore, mostly because the COmpelitaion ruined a perfectly good villian to cater to dub fanboys(And I'd argue he was just being maniplated by Jenova). Hell I get flak from Chris Nolan fanboys for saying I don't like them or many of the reimagining of the characters (Joker's really good but holy fuck was Two-Face wasted and what the fuck happened to Talia and ra's?) so I can understand taking flak for not understanding the appeal of something.
What I can't abide is dismissing someone's arguement before even listening to it. It's just personal berzerk button when people strawman arguments and it happens *way* too much in this day and age.
i'm sorry. Not really trying to start a fight or anything.
Also I will agree with pretty much the whole "Underrated" list save Voincent(Because I haven't seen that movie yet) Hell as much as I don't care about Lion King 2 Zira had a surprising amount of depth for a Straight to Video children's movie villian. Not the deepest but she was basically just someone colassally screwed over because she picked the wrong side. And John Doe? Guy's chilling. I consider Se7ena horror movie for a reason. That end scene he's explaining everything? Would have been ruined if he was raving maniac. Instead he speaks so calmly, so clearly you can see into that diseased mind and everything becomes crystal clear.
And yeah, John Doe is a far more *effective* villain than any slasher franchise' poster boy.
On John Doe, why I find him so effective...Nietzche said it best:
"And when you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes into you"
he's effective because while a psychotic monster you find you yourself understanding him maybe even agreeinga little in spite of better judgement. the peroformance, hell the entire movie is effective at doing this. Se7en shows modern society as rotten, full of scum, hypocrites, and general bad people. If it wasn't for Se7en being so dark John Doe wouldn't be nearly as effective.
Se7en is brilliant film,and I agree with you thier as horror fan. Shasher movies tend to be really great popcorn flicks on the first outing then turn into shallow self parodies of themselves as time goes on. freddie and Jason? They're really scary. When you can sell Halloween costumes of them to second graders and not stir out controversy? They've kinda lost their menace.
Disney's Frollo...for a Disney villian? Actually pretty good. I mean he showcases and deals with issuses many "adult" works are afraid to deal with, religious extremism, xenophobia, lust and obession genocide. Book Frollo is much more complex character but Disney frollo gets points for probably being Disney's darkest villain. lus damn that NUMBER. The Sith trimuatium is pretty great too...I just feel The Emperor and the Galactic Empire where more memorable. And...I'm partial to the Imperial aesthetic.<_<;
And saw that MLP episode with SOmbra AND I--
...Completly agree with you. he's so flat and stereotypical you could replace him with literally anyone.
...As for Bowser? I should note in the RPGs he's usually usurped by someone betetr so...yeah. Elliot Carver? As much as I loathe Rupert Murdock...Bond villains need a certain "Bombast" to them. Goldfinger, Blofeld, Alex Trevelak. Real people don't make very good supervillians unless you're a Korean Dictator.
Would people scream at me if I put Boba fett to "Overrated" and Shinzor from ST Nemesis on "Worst'=b
Also we need to talk about and I added you on Skpye but apparently we can't talk until/if you make the upgrade.<_<;
Microsoft won't admit it but they just want to be the new Apple.
While his motivations might have been noble at first, he devolved into a sadistic psycho with a frightening God complex who murders anyone who has the audacity to disagree with his methods. He's a megalomaniac and tyrant. Granted this makes him an effective villain, but this doesn't stop people from actually defending his motivations. These people shouldn't be allowed to vote.
Most Underrated -
Jean-Luc Picard
Picard has knowingly allowed entire populations of innocent people suffer when he could have easily helped them because of his adherence to a perverse moral code. However, in "Insurrection" he did not realize that that code does not apply to an advanced race pretending to be primitive so they could hoard life-saving resources that should be used to help people throughout the galaxy. The best part is that Picard isn't doing this out of spite, greed or sadism, he believes he's doing the right thing in the name of "social justice." He's actually a superficially likable and identifiable person, and that's what makes him so effective in displaying the Banality of Evil
Sir Hiss - Robin Hood
In addition to being the most intelligent villain in the movie, he's also the least malicious. He doesn't have a mean bone in his body, but he still plays along with Prince John even when he's visibly disgusted by his actions. He's a coward with no integrity.
Carter Burke's character in a nutshell.
Prototype is actually pretty fun gameplay-wise, but story and character-wise? Alex Mercer is a prime example of why it's shit. No wonder they decided to make him an actual villain you need to hunt down and kill in Prototype 2. This worthless mass murderer deserves nothing less.