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You, artists, refunds, PayPal and chargebacks
12 years ago
I you Taken from 
She was kind enough to send it to me in a note so I could copy paste it easier.
There have been some disturbing trends in the furry commission world that I'd like to take a moment to address.
First, artists and commissioners:
No Refund clauses are not okay. They would not hold up in court. I understand furry doesn't typically end up in court, but there's a reason everyone you buy from can't just take your money and say no refunds. This is not A Thing you are Allowed To Do.
And yet it seems to have become popular for artists to put this in their Terms of Service. It is another thing entirely to have a bad commissioner and only want to refund them for work you haven't done, and that is not what I'm discussing here. I am also not discussing non-refundable deposits on fursuits. I'm discussing throwing in a no refunds clause and deciding it's okay to keep the money of people you don't like or who have upset you in some way, or even just to point at if the client wants a refund so you can go, "Well look, you agreed to my TOS, so that means no refund and now I don't have to do your art! Yay!". Just because you write something in your TOS and the commissioner seemingly agrees to it, that doesn't necessarily make it legally binding. You really can't just put whatever you want in a TOS.
No, you can't do that. There is no real circumstance where it would be legal or morally okay to both keep someone's money and their product. If a client is being a huge jerk and you don't want to work for them anymore, refund them and blacklist them. Don't be the worse person by becoming a thief. I'd personally rather hang out with a jerk than someone who would steal from me. Though I suppose they could be both, huh?
And to commissioners, please read your artist's TOS before you commission them, and if you see something shady like a no refund clause, DON'T COMMISSION THEM! This is a big red flag. Just.. don't do it. The kind of people who would have these clauses to begin with are usually the ones a little more likely to screw you (and they're the ones that often end up on AB...). And not the good kind.
Onto the second problem.
There has been an unfortunate rash of chargebacks in the community lately. Someone, somewhere, decided that if paying through paypal with a credit card, they can merely wait until they receive the art and then file a chargeback via their bank, and tada!! Free art!
This is fraud. This is Theft of Services. Yes, that is a real crime. I understand furries aren't exactly known for taking legal action, but before you think you're so smart in your ill-gotten piles of porn art, understand that you are taking a great risk, and for what? You're going to risk being arrested/sued for the sake of pictures of your character? Ridiculous.
For the artists, there is unfortunately not much that can be done to curb this. With paypal, they will want some sort of proof of shipping, and for many artists they simply won't have it as it would be for digital works. What's worse, the length of time people can charge back is far longer than the 45 days provided by paypal. Many times, people can chargeback up to roughly a year! All I can recommend it to use invoices (which won't necessarily protect you, but will let you keep things more organized), to always make sure you have enough in your paypal/bank account to cover a possible chargeback, and if you really want to get creative, you can start shipping something for every digital piece that you do. Just make sure you label your invoices in such a way that it looks like the client is paying for what it is you're sending, and that the art is just a little thing on the side. However, this is impractical and may scare off clients who think you'll use that same reasoning to screw them, as they would likely not be able to get their money back via paypal as long as you sent that object, regardless of whether you actually created the art you owed.
This will likely continue to be a problem until someone chargebacks the wrong person, and ends up arrested/in court. People will hear about it, and most (not all, people who do these things don't tend to be very smart) will realize risking such an extreme punishment isn't worth pictures of their wolf trying to look sexy. If it happens to you, make sure you post your experience on artists_beware and do your best to get the word out so others can avoid being scammed.
One last thing... paypal fees. I still regularly find artists who erronously believe it is okay to put in their TOS or otherwise that the client must pay the paypal fees. This is against paypal's terms of service and will get your account FROZEN. The fee is for you, the seller to pay, as you are taking advantage of their service to make money. It is perfectly reasonable for paypal to want a small cut.
You also can not ask your clients to pay as a gift to avoid the fee entirely, for the same reason above. Simply put, don't try to get around paying the fee. It is expected that artists will consider paypal fees in their prices to begin with.
That said, if a client chooses to put in a couple dollars to cover the fee of their own free will, that's okay! And very kind of them. Make a point to thank clients who do this, because they don't have to!
Commissioners: Never pay your artist via the Gift tab in paypal. You may think you're being nice, but not only could you accidentally get them frozen, if the artist ends up not doing your work, you will not be able to get your money back via paypal. You can not open a dispute on a payment that was sent as a gift! If you want to pay the fees for them, consider tacking on another 5 dollars or so, instead. Artists will appreciate it and will remember a client that regularly goes out of their way to do so!
I hope something in this mass of text helps somebody.
She was kind enough to send it to me in a note so I could copy paste it easier. There have been some disturbing trends in the furry commission world that I'd like to take a moment to address.
First, artists and commissioners:
No Refund clauses are not okay. They would not hold up in court. I understand furry doesn't typically end up in court, but there's a reason everyone you buy from can't just take your money and say no refunds. This is not A Thing you are Allowed To Do.
And yet it seems to have become popular for artists to put this in their Terms of Service. It is another thing entirely to have a bad commissioner and only want to refund them for work you haven't done, and that is not what I'm discussing here. I am also not discussing non-refundable deposits on fursuits. I'm discussing throwing in a no refunds clause and deciding it's okay to keep the money of people you don't like or who have upset you in some way, or even just to point at if the client wants a refund so you can go, "Well look, you agreed to my TOS, so that means no refund and now I don't have to do your art! Yay!". Just because you write something in your TOS and the commissioner seemingly agrees to it, that doesn't necessarily make it legally binding. You really can't just put whatever you want in a TOS.
No, you can't do that. There is no real circumstance where it would be legal or morally okay to both keep someone's money and their product. If a client is being a huge jerk and you don't want to work for them anymore, refund them and blacklist them. Don't be the worse person by becoming a thief. I'd personally rather hang out with a jerk than someone who would steal from me. Though I suppose they could be both, huh?
And to commissioners, please read your artist's TOS before you commission them, and if you see something shady like a no refund clause, DON'T COMMISSION THEM! This is a big red flag. Just.. don't do it. The kind of people who would have these clauses to begin with are usually the ones a little more likely to screw you (and they're the ones that often end up on AB...). And not the good kind.
Onto the second problem.
There has been an unfortunate rash of chargebacks in the community lately. Someone, somewhere, decided that if paying through paypal with a credit card, they can merely wait until they receive the art and then file a chargeback via their bank, and tada!! Free art!
This is fraud. This is Theft of Services. Yes, that is a real crime. I understand furries aren't exactly known for taking legal action, but before you think you're so smart in your ill-gotten piles of porn art, understand that you are taking a great risk, and for what? You're going to risk being arrested/sued for the sake of pictures of your character? Ridiculous.
For the artists, there is unfortunately not much that can be done to curb this. With paypal, they will want some sort of proof of shipping, and for many artists they simply won't have it as it would be for digital works. What's worse, the length of time people can charge back is far longer than the 45 days provided by paypal. Many times, people can chargeback up to roughly a year! All I can recommend it to use invoices (which won't necessarily protect you, but will let you keep things more organized), to always make sure you have enough in your paypal/bank account to cover a possible chargeback, and if you really want to get creative, you can start shipping something for every digital piece that you do. Just make sure you label your invoices in such a way that it looks like the client is paying for what it is you're sending, and that the art is just a little thing on the side. However, this is impractical and may scare off clients who think you'll use that same reasoning to screw them, as they would likely not be able to get their money back via paypal as long as you sent that object, regardless of whether you actually created the art you owed.
This will likely continue to be a problem until someone chargebacks the wrong person, and ends up arrested/in court. People will hear about it, and most (not all, people who do these things don't tend to be very smart) will realize risking such an extreme punishment isn't worth pictures of their wolf trying to look sexy. If it happens to you, make sure you post your experience on artists_beware and do your best to get the word out so others can avoid being scammed.
One last thing... paypal fees. I still regularly find artists who erronously believe it is okay to put in their TOS or otherwise that the client must pay the paypal fees. This is against paypal's terms of service and will get your account FROZEN. The fee is for you, the seller to pay, as you are taking advantage of their service to make money. It is perfectly reasonable for paypal to want a small cut.
You also can not ask your clients to pay as a gift to avoid the fee entirely, for the same reason above. Simply put, don't try to get around paying the fee. It is expected that artists will consider paypal fees in their prices to begin with.
That said, if a client chooses to put in a couple dollars to cover the fee of their own free will, that's okay! And very kind of them. Make a point to thank clients who do this, because they don't have to!
Commissioners: Never pay your artist via the Gift tab in paypal. You may think you're being nice, but not only could you accidentally get them frozen, if the artist ends up not doing your work, you will not be able to get your money back via paypal. You can not open a dispute on a payment that was sent as a gift! If you want to pay the fees for them, consider tacking on another 5 dollars or so, instead. Artists will appreciate it and will remember a client that regularly goes out of their way to do so!
I hope something in this mass of text helps somebody.
LakraFarrunner
~lakrafarrunner
This actually is really helpful. Thank you so much Leafy for posting it and thank you cyiakanami for typing all this out. I am having this issue right now and it's driving me insane. I hope she realizes that even if she does draw my art, I will not accept it because I asked for my money back a long time ago and she hasn't even responded to the note that I know that she read. I really don't want to go so far as bringing the artist in question and issue to public, but if she is going to continue acting like a coward and a sloth then I will have no choice.
cyiakanami for typing all this out. I am having this issue right now and it's driving me insane. I hope she realizes that even if she does draw my art, I will not accept it because I asked for my money back a long time ago and she hasn't even responded to the note that I know that she read. I really don't want to go so far as bringing the artist in question and issue to public, but if she is going to continue acting like a coward and a sloth then I will have no choice. 
LeafStorm
~leafstorm
OP
Not sure who originally wrote it...but yeah.
LakraFarrunner
~lakrafarrunner
I can't figure out how to do the chargeback....if I could just do that, it would be great. It's just weird. This artist was a joy to work with before...but now...
LeafStorm
~leafstorm
OP
Sad face. contact PayPal and file a 'dispute' is all I can suggest if its been more than 45 days.
LakraFarrunner
~lakrafarrunner
Just filed a dispute. I just want this to be over...worst experience with a commission I've ever had.
LeafStorm
~leafstorm
OP
Find the Buyer Beware site and write a report up too.
DreamingDaemus
~dreamingdaemus
I agree, this is a very insightful and helpful piece. I think clients and artists need to be very aware of their rights and the ways to protect themselves as best as they can. For instance, I didn't even know about credit card chargebacks. I've been very blessed to not have to deal with that yet, but it's a good thing to know it can happen. Thanks 
for posting this and thanks for writing it up.
for posting this and thanks for writing it up.
LeafStorm
~leafstorm
OP
Yerp. though she's the third artist I've seen this from today. so dunno who wrote it originally.
VikenWelopl
~vikenwelopl
Iv been screwed by a couple artists who refunded me and made me eat the paypal fee. I wouldnt mention any names but there is one specific one who would take commissions on top of having yours to finish and finish the newer ones first then tell everyone that they didnt have time to do theirs. refund the money making the commissioner eat the paypal cost and then two weeks to a month later they would have a list of 15 commissions that they took and have in their que. seriously, how immature and rude.
LeafStorm
~leafstorm
OP
I'm so sorry hon. that's downright poopie.
LakraFarrunner
~lakrafarrunner
Yeah I had a person send me money back and didn't add in the paypal fee for my refund...
VikenWelopl
~vikenwelopl
its rather annoying and in my opinion very very immature. to not realize that you made the mistake as the artist of taking on something you could not/ do not want to draw. then turn around and basically fine the commissioner for wanting and paying you do make art for them. Some of these so called adults need to grow up and pull their heads from their rectums before they try to make money on their artistic abilities.
