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Third and final journal on the Paypal issue
11 years ago
So, everything has been resolved, and here's where this whole debacle stands now.
If you have a Tigerdile account or have a paypal tip jar on ANY site that allows adult content, remove it. They are cracking down.
I talked to the paypal reps and they said I had a stellar history of sales with no previous complaints, and after re-signing an affidavit promising not to associate my paypal account with any other sites with adult content in the future, they have restored my account. If you're polite and patient with them, they'll do the same for you.
From this point on, to ensure I have no further issues, I'll be selling what few adult products I do have through Square, once I figured out how to go about that. I'll still be using paypal for just about everything else. Almost everything I sell is just fine by their AUP, I'll probably only need to use square on the few occasions I sell things like adult comics that are printed material. A lot of it's a gray area, they just really don't like anything that is blatantly pornographic, like an adult site, to have their logo on it. It's all about image, I'd wager.
So that's that. Tread carefully, young grasshoppers, and learn from my ordeal.
If you have a Tigerdile account or have a paypal tip jar on ANY site that allows adult content, remove it. They are cracking down.
I talked to the paypal reps and they said I had a stellar history of sales with no previous complaints, and after re-signing an affidavit promising not to associate my paypal account with any other sites with adult content in the future, they have restored my account. If you're polite and patient with them, they'll do the same for you.
From this point on, to ensure I have no further issues, I'll be selling what few adult products I do have through Square, once I figured out how to go about that. I'll still be using paypal for just about everything else. Almost everything I sell is just fine by their AUP, I'll probably only need to use square on the few occasions I sell things like adult comics that are printed material. A lot of it's a gray area, they just really don't like anything that is blatantly pornographic, like an adult site, to have their logo on it. It's all about image, I'd wager.
So that's that. Tread carefully, young grasshoppers, and learn from my ordeal.
How to Use PayPal and Never Get in Trouble
I honestly have no idea what they are thinking, unless this is some secrete scheme to allow other money-transfering services to thrive?
It all comes down to money, and for networks that process multiple trillion dollars per year, the adult is a small percentage thorn in their side for customer complaints.
Always have a payment plan B - and encourage your customers to use their bank's bill pay systems for expensive transactions - say over $50. You'll save on fees, the transactions are irrevocable (no chargeback possible), and you will have a cash flow if your paypal account is frozen or permanently blocked.
I have a permanent ban from adult transaction activity in 2010, so I am particularly well versed in all the policy and such. An interesting footnote: in USA, paypal is permitted by law to freeze and hold your funds as collected damages of your activity on their network. In europe, paypal is NOT permitted to hold the funds for more than 12 months, to control costs associated with future chargebacks against your account.
I contacted Paypal and they checked and refunded my monies immediately.
(Also, honestly, I trust Amazon WAY more than Paypal; if an artist gave me the choice of which to use, I'd pick Amazon Payments in a heartbeat. I think the fee structure between the two is also fairly similar.)
I think the donate button was just super convenient and so many kinda didnt consider the risks. hopefully this gets around to prevent others from getting nailed by it.
I always knew the tip jar thing would end in tears. I'm sad it came to pass :/
I know too many people having this sort of trouble and seeking payment alternatives.
They just don't realize the day a reliable payment methode appears that does not have these policies... They will steal all business from PP. Their choice, I suppose.
I stick to paypal because is quite universal, and has a decent customer backup. But it has all those issues.
*If* there was a good reliable portal, it would have a multi-million potential market (that is what adult customers will likely move). Even respecting the credit card own policy restrictions, there is still a LOT of money waiting for a way to exchange hands...
It shouldn't be really changed - I mean the homepage. I guess this will remain a mainly porn-oriented site for very long itme if not forever, I wish FA wasn't so misleading with its purely sweet, innocent and non-suggestive graphics(banners)^^; Don't make such too much appealing and misleading to children, please^^; Perhaps the graphics could be more ugly or too realistic(with not so attractive for youngsters natural colours and shading)? Just, please, don't repeat FA's mistake^^;
AND such sites should be detectable by some parental controll programs as well as family safe filters - that's for sure... Misleading is a horrible thing.
I agree that it'll never be 100% clean, but it's a lot cleaner than it was a year ago, and it's actually /trending/ cleaner. So I don't agree with all of this, but I also am a parent myself and want to keep the kiddies safe and out of places they shouldn't be :)
Hope you'll find a good sollution^^ I'm glad to hear some of the furries do care about youngsters' mental safety^^ (Too many of these I've spoken to were absolutely ignorant to the issue.. actually 100% of these, excluding you.)
commissions?
I'll be keeping an eye on this though, so far it seems like the best alternative to paypal should the worst ever come around. Thanks for sharing \o/
... I'd really like to endorse a better service. I never liked Paypal and I like them even less now :P
From section 6 of their seller agreement: "By creating a Square Account, you also confirm that you will not accept payments in connection with ... (22) adult entertainment oriented products or services (in any medium, including internet, telephone, or printed material)"
Or I know they used to, not sure if they do anymore.
Well damn, that's kinda scary.
Talk's being batted around about making a more separated site for SFW stuff. I'm not sure how much more protection it will be. Paypal is always kind of a risk, I've seen them seize funds more or less at random before :/
I wish paypal wasn't such a....rough thing to deal with. xnx
https://squareup.com/help/en-us/art.....quare-register
(halfway down the list -- "Adult entertainment oriented products or services (in any medium, including internet, telephone or printed material")
I do have a web article I have been using for guidance on figuring this out which has a list of payment processors -- both those friendly to adult stuff and those that are absolute no-nos (such as Paypal). Best I can do for now.
http://rubygoodnight.com/adult-frie.....-adult-writers
One day they just took my money and never gave it back.
Even though they got bought out, paypal was founded by christian fundementalist asswipes and that ethos persists to this day.
I started an Amazon donation link and have had ZERO problems with Amazon. They even sell adult content on their book store so I can't imagine them using morality to crack down on furry art.
I shout it into the wind, but I highly recommend folks dig around the Amazon site to find their tip jar, donations process for artists and use them over paypal.
PayPal and all of these pay sites are not regulated and their TOS states they can basically take your money and keep it whenever they deem it in their interests.
Anyway, IMO, get off Pay pal and encourage sites and site owners to accept other methods of payment than just PayPal.
Glad this got resolved for you for now Rukis, but I would hate to see you loose your hard earned and well deserved money laster because of PayPal changing their mind again.
hugs
Ashke
I am confused.
As for consistency, that really doesn't matter from a legal standpoint. There's undoubtedly a clause in the AUP stating that a failure by PayPal to enforce their terms in one case doesn't require them to waive policy in another, similar case.
The don't have a problem with adult art, either, only digital adult art or paying people money to see digital images or to see someone undress, j.o., etc. You are allowed to sell vintage copies of Hustler magazine on ebay using paypal. I think this has to do with business liability reasons over whether the porn is legal or not more than any concerns for morality.
Vintage copies of magazines are considered collector's items. If you posted the latest issue of Playboy on eBay they'd take issue with that.
And no, it was not porn. I was mearly exploring different avenues, and the print is exceptional. Anyone can come and see it (It's G-rated) if you wish.
The only downside is that it requires a US checking account, which makes it a non-option for international customers.
Your issues kinda scare me off... I was sure I can trust PP for payments the most, but now I'm afraid they can take all my hard-earned money one day... IDK, because the customer was from FA and mentioned it in the payment message... I don't link my PP on sites publictly, but who knows now...
Ah, so they could look up FA if they felt like following up for some reason, and slam you for using their site for a potentially adult transaction. Ouch.
I guess they feel that they don't have to worry about small vendors like artists suing them over it. I really think there is something wrong with the guy running paypal.
In their AUP, prohibited activities that may concern some folks are sections F and H
(f) items that are considered obscene
(h) certain sexually oriented materials or services
F could be anything... determined by the one reviewing the items the account holder is selling
H... thats the toughie. It isnt described in detail to the PayPal employees specifically is ok and what is not.
Neither of these can hurt PayPal in commerce or as a business itself, its just the way the company chooses to handle its own service.
I hold panels at conventions to talk about such things within PayPal, what people can do to protect their accounts, and if they do have a limited account, what they can do to restore service.
I'm glad you got it all worked out.
I'm in one of those states. >:|
I have no idea.
Glad it turned out okay, and with any luck it won't happen to anyone else (at least, not because of a Tigerdile feature :P ).
As for tip jars, I'm not familiar with that, but I can understand. Image and PR is huge. I mean, who here doesn't remember the "cub" fiasco of the "child pornography" that got FA into hot water? Image and association mean a lot these days, and especially nowadays, it seems anything even resembling "adult" material needs to be kept away from anything "family friendly" at all costs, otherwise the media, or just about anyone, can use faulty causation to say "so and so supports such and such" because there is a link, however tenuous. So rather than risk it, it's just easier for them to sever ties so the issue doesn't arise. It's kinda sad, but it's today's society.
While the name is a semi-joke (and I hope somebody would use it if they did start that website), this fandom is filled with a lot of talented and technically knowledgeable people, so surely some individuals would know how to set up a secure payment exchange system.
Disputes aside, you need to have enough financial backing yourself to provide coverage for potential calamities and loss of revenue of your clients. You also need a (very) solid legal department in case of issues and abuse.
That being said, you can more easily set up an escrow service, which would allow you to offer PayPal to artists and commissioners by disconnecting the nature of the goods/services from the actual financial transactions. And I think if you are serious about setting that up, you can make it work without too terribly much of an investment. The main commodity you'll be dealing in would be trust. People have to trust you to use your service.
The sad thing is that there really is no good alternative as it seems to me that the alternative service also have the same language. But it is good to have a backup.
I think the real moral of this story is: don't keep a balance in your PalPal account. People who use it as their bank account are most at risk if the account is frozen or seized.
When physical items are not exchanged then, yeah, I can see it being a very grey area. By my reading of the PayPal TOS it would be prohibited, but I took a second look and I can totally see how someone else could come to a different conclusion for something like tipping an artist who does adult work or even something like a commission (all digital). Like you said, it will ultimately come down to someone at PayPal having to make a decision. That's where the "being nice and professional" when dealing with the comes in I suppose.
One thing that probably helped your case is that it is a VERY grey area if, for example, you stream clean artwork on a site like Tigerdile and take commissions. Or if someone tips you, if you're streaming clean art or even not streaming at all. That probably played into their decision. Because they really wouldn't know what the tip was for. Again, by my read you're ok even if other content on the site is NSFW. And "cam girls" on Tigerdile? LOL - you'd think they would have at least looked at the content before making that kind of assumption, if they are going to crack down on a site. Not that everything on Tigerdile has been SFW in the past, of course... >.>
It's like the US treasuring stepping in when I decide to buy a Hustler or something and say I can't use US currency for such purchases.
Same with Visa/MC. If they try to tell me what I can or cannot buy with their card *BOOM* their card is in the trash and they won't get another dime from me, I don't care how much of a balance is remaining.
PP shouldn't have a say in what their users purchase - they are a money transfer facilitator, nothing more, and so long as the transactions are legal then they shouldn't have the power to say a damn thing.
In light of - what's this Square service? If PP won't let me pay the artists I commission then it's time to kick 'em to the curb.
In all seriousness, did I do something to offend you?
Do you think this could also just be in offense to furry adult sites or do you think its any adult content site?
Either way I've always just given people my email address to send funds directly to. That seems to have worked over the last 10 years, no reason to change that pattern because of a "donate" button.
Really -- there's absolutely no point in trying to rationalize their motives or consistency.
Like others have said, PayPal can be very arbitrary and capricious, so it's best to try and generally comply with the TOS and then be very nice and apologetic if something bad happens. And in PayPal's defense, they do seem to get riled up when their customers actually do get screwed over or harassed. But still... it would be nice to have an alternative.
But what other options are there, especially for ebay?...