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No Art for the Intersexed
11 years ago
So this is probably a very pointless journal, as all of you that watch me will prolly agree and no one else will see it... BUT I wanna make it anyway cause I'm a snarky bastard.
So I've been getting more and more artists turning me away for commissions, both clean and NSFW, because they refuse to draw male intersex (aka cuntboys).
While many say it's because we're the only sex that bothers them, which is hurtful enough to begin with, more and more have been saying it's because they don't want to "fetishize" intersex people. I have a number of reasons this line of thinking is a problem to me:
1. Speaking just for those of us that are actually intersexed, (as well as those who wish to be in real life) and like ourselves that way, we want to get art of ourselves as we are, just like any "normal" male of female would. Why is us getting porn fetishizing it, but a girl getting a picture of her flaunting her breasts, or a guy waving his dick around aren't fetishizing women or men? This just makes no sense.
2. In turning only us away from getting art, that is just more actively enforcing the idea that we are somehow different from everybody else; this doesn't help our equality in any way what-so-ever, but those artists that turn us away for this reason parade around like they're the champion of intersex/trans rights for striking down and intersex person who just wants art and to show that, hey, we're really here.
3. Some of these artists will draw herms, but not intersex. Let me be so bold as to point out that anthropomorphic animals do not actually exist and neither do true-hermaphrodites in the way that they are depicted in furry art, with the fully formed and working genitalia of both genders, it just doesn't physically work. Yet, intersex people, who do really exist, and much more commonly than people know, they refuse to draw because they bother them or are unrealistic? I don't get it.
4. Some say it's simply because the word cuntboy is offensive, and therefor won't draw us at all. Yes, some people are offended by this name (I am not one of them), but some are. We are actively doing our best to spread the name "male intersex" instead of cuntboy, but in the end, it's the name that everybody already knows. It is simple, yet descriptive, and I only every hear it used lightheartedly. If I am choosing to use that word for myself (which I don't, I say male intersex whenever possible), then obviously I'm not offended by it, and I'm not asking you to put it in your picture or tags or description or anything. It doesn't affect the art.
I could go on and on. A recent example of this from an artist that I won't name, is what has really set me off. In the rules for a YCH he was running, he said "No cuntboys or dickgirls (but trans people are okay)" or something to that nature. Right away this confused me, as a transman would look exactly like a cboy, and a transwomen (pre-op) would look exactly like a dgirl. But anyway, I asked what the reason for the exclusion of intersex people was, and his answer was along the lines of "I refuse to fetishize intersex or trans people." Buuuuuuuut wait a minute... you wont fetishize intersex OR trans people... but you will draw trans people in this pic and not intersex people? What's the dividing line that makes it fetishizing for intersexed people, but not trans people if it's for a YCH--aka the exact same pose/picture for either I just don't understand people some times.
So! in the end, if you're uncomfortable with drawing non binary sexes or genders, fine. I won't give you a watch, but at least you're honest about it. But if you will draw herms or trans people but wont draw cboys? I don't see how this makes any sense at all. We are here, we really do exist irl, without being trans even, and we just want art. I don't understand what all the hatred is about.
END RANT <3
So I've been getting more and more artists turning me away for commissions, both clean and NSFW, because they refuse to draw male intersex (aka cuntboys).
While many say it's because we're the only sex that bothers them, which is hurtful enough to begin with, more and more have been saying it's because they don't want to "fetishize" intersex people. I have a number of reasons this line of thinking is a problem to me:
1. Speaking just for those of us that are actually intersexed, (as well as those who wish to be in real life) and like ourselves that way, we want to get art of ourselves as we are, just like any "normal" male of female would. Why is us getting porn fetishizing it, but a girl getting a picture of her flaunting her breasts, or a guy waving his dick around aren't fetishizing women or men? This just makes no sense.
2. In turning only us away from getting art, that is just more actively enforcing the idea that we are somehow different from everybody else; this doesn't help our equality in any way what-so-ever, but those artists that turn us away for this reason parade around like they're the champion of intersex/trans rights for striking down and intersex person who just wants art and to show that, hey, we're really here.
3. Some of these artists will draw herms, but not intersex. Let me be so bold as to point out that anthropomorphic animals do not actually exist and neither do true-hermaphrodites in the way that they are depicted in furry art, with the fully formed and working genitalia of both genders, it just doesn't physically work. Yet, intersex people, who do really exist, and much more commonly than people know, they refuse to draw because they bother them or are unrealistic? I don't get it.
4. Some say it's simply because the word cuntboy is offensive, and therefor won't draw us at all. Yes, some people are offended by this name (I am not one of them), but some are. We are actively doing our best to spread the name "male intersex" instead of cuntboy, but in the end, it's the name that everybody already knows. It is simple, yet descriptive, and I only every hear it used lightheartedly. If I am choosing to use that word for myself (which I don't, I say male intersex whenever possible), then obviously I'm not offended by it, and I'm not asking you to put it in your picture or tags or description or anything. It doesn't affect the art.
I could go on and on. A recent example of this from an artist that I won't name, is what has really set me off. In the rules for a YCH he was running, he said "No cuntboys or dickgirls (but trans people are okay)" or something to that nature. Right away this confused me, as a transman would look exactly like a cboy, and a transwomen (pre-op) would look exactly like a dgirl. But anyway, I asked what the reason for the exclusion of intersex people was, and his answer was along the lines of "I refuse to fetishize intersex or trans people." Buuuuuuuut wait a minute... you wont fetishize intersex OR trans people... but you will draw trans people in this pic and not intersex people? What's the dividing line that makes it fetishizing for intersexed people, but not trans people if it's for a YCH--aka the exact same pose/picture for either I just don't understand people some times.
So! in the end, if you're uncomfortable with drawing non binary sexes or genders, fine. I won't give you a watch, but at least you're honest about it. But if you will draw herms or trans people but wont draw cboys? I don't see how this makes any sense at all. We are here, we really do exist irl, without being trans even, and we just want art. I don't understand what all the hatred is about.
END RANT <3
FTM's who keep their vagina, and MTF's who keep their penises, would be considered intersex, as far as I know.
http://www.isna.org/faq/what_is_intersex
Transgender people do not have that problem. We are born as one set gender. No doctor would look at us and say 'intersex' they would say 'girl' or 'boy'. Or genitalia isn't genetically confusing to anyone but us because that is simply what we don't identify with. It doesn't change the fact that the genetalia we were born with are in working, functional, normal condition. We are born as one thing.
Intersexed people are BORN that way. You cannot become intersex. What intersex means is someone who has ambiguous genetalia and was born that way. So for example, an intersex male may have been born with what looks like a vagina on the outside, but on the inside there are male reproductive organs and such that a female wouldn't be born with. Therefore a doctor would not indicate this child was either male or female. A doctor would automatically say 'intersexed' whereas with a child that is transgender, that wouldn't be medically known. It wouldn't be known until the child decides they don't identify as such.
By claiming you can transition to another means you think the two are interchangable. It isn't. You cannot change from male to intersex. That doesn't make any sense. You can't decide to have ambigous genitalia that you were born with and weren't physically altered through cosmetic surgery.
http://www.isna.org/faq/what_is_intersex
Intersex means a variety of different things, not just the more-typical "born with ambiguous genitalia" but everyone who somehow or someway falls in-between those genders/sexes
I wasn't lecturing you. I thought you'd like an adult discussion with someone with an opposing opinion on the matter. I would've thought you'd give me another discussion with your viewpoint, not a snide remark about being lectured. I'm sorry for my two cents. :T
I never said getting genital surgery made you intersex. A post-op MtF isn't intersex, she's female, etc. I said people can get genital surgery to become intersexed if that's what the wish, in the same way a genetic man can get genital (and other) surgery to become female. I'm very much keeping intersex and trans as two different things, but t hat doesn't mean you can be trans female-to-intersex or male-to-intersex if one desired.
Also, just wanted to pop this here to you too, I mean no harm by my discussion. I'd just rather have someone told the right information so they don't potentially end up offending someone with the wrong information. I'm not someone who would fly off the handle at you for something you wouldn't have known to begin with, rather just correct you, but other people will bitch all kinds of fits if you even hinted at misrepresenting them with the wrong label.
I meant nothing by my opinion. I just thought you'd like to hear the opinion of someone that was transgender because your initial point sounded like it was trying to make it the same thing, and your comments on other posts of people that said they will just call all characters intersexed just made it seem that way.
I guess i'm not sure how you could have surgery to become intersexed. For one thing, I thought you had to be born that way and even if you got surgery it still wouldn't be considered intersexed. For another....I have never heard of that happening and have no idea how it would happen. Do people do that? If so that's a whole other world that just opened up to me.
But, what if I was a man who simply wanted a vagina? I think that is what I gathered.
I am very confused by all this because people seem to be very sensitive toward gender and nobody just says
"I am a dude who would like to surgically make my penus into a vagina, and remain a male"
Or
"I am a female that would rather have a penis over this existing vagina."
Blunt?? Oh yes..
But, I think I will finally get an answer.
I mean I guess you'd still be a dude? I think it might depend on how you indentify. If you're still going "I'm a male" regardless of wanting a vagina, wouldn't that still mean you're a man? To me, gender has zero to do with what your body parts have going on. Sex is something different for me.
I'm sensitive towards gender, but I'm also not one to give some convoluted answer when you want to know what I am. You ask me? I'm a dude. My biological parts have nothing to do with it.
Intersex - Intersex is a set of medical conditions that feature congenital anomaly of the reproductive and sexual system. That is, intersex people are born with "sex chromosomes," external genitalia, or internal reproductive systems that are not considered "standard" for either male or female. The existence of intersexuals shows that there are not just two sexes and that our ways of thinking about sex (trying to force everyone to fit into either the male box or the female box) is socially constructed.
I think if you're altering something then you'd probably fit better within the role of transgender or genderqueer. Not intersex.
But yeah, pretty much. It's medical terminology for a birth condition that people mistakenly use to describe people who aren't born with anything that would put them into that category, but identify outside of the gender norm. Intersex is often mistaken to mean "someone who doesn't fit into any gender categories or identifies outside of it" when that's what transgender or genderqueer means. Intersex has a entirely different definition which i've already posted.
Here's a good site that has a bunch of terms and their definitions. It's one of the many places I've looked up trying to figure out what this all meant for me and for members of the LGBTQ community.
http://itspronouncedmetrosexual.com.....m-definitions/
This link here is rather self serving and subjective.
Where is the etymology, where are the cited sources?
As for the citation I'm not really sure. I can post to you a bunch of different sites and sources and they all pretty much give the same definitions for the words. I mean, it's pretty much just like a dictionary.
http://internationalspectrum.umich......fe/definitions
https://www.hrc.org/resources/entry.....nd-definitions
https://www.gsanetwork.org/resource.....ms-definitions
And something else I've read on being intersexed and what it means
http://www.isna.org/faq/what_is_intersex
http://goaskalice.columbia.edu/what.....-how-common-it
http://oii-usa.org/1128/intersex/
I mean like you said, it can be pretty confusing as a lot of words are kind fubar, but on this subject of whether or not intersex and transgender are the same thing, or whether or not you can become intersex, those two words pretty much seem to be cut and dry. The definitions on intersex all pretty much say the same thing. It's a born medical condition. You can't just alter yourself to become like that (and I still have yet to even see or hear about any instance of that happening. You saw where I got when I asked the one person I ever saw mentioning it).
I think it's pretty much like the analogy all apples are fruits but not all fruits are apples. Intersex people can be transgender or become transgender or identify with it, but you can't go the other way around because you have to be born intersex. I'm just basing that on the definitions I've seen for it.
People confuse the word to mean something else all the time, but all it really takes is a bit of digging and I feel like the definition at least for that word is clear enough it shouldn't be confused. There are other words that describe what people tend to use 'intersex' to describe.
That sounds cool to me! We could discuss it via notes if you'd like! I don't mind that at all!
People suck.
At least know you'll always have my support ^^
On another point that I believe you made (kinda working through grieving over the series finale of the US version of Being Human >.>' ), I dun see what's wrong with those of us who are/want to be physically just like our fursonas to get art of them, both sexually and not, to at least feel that tiny bit closer to the way we want to be (or just have our fursona truly mirror our irl self)
Buuuuut, there are so many artists in the fandom that are fine with drawing cuntboys, and are very talented at doing so, that the handful of close-minded artists that won't draw us dun really matter :3
With that in mind, I'll refer to 'cuntboys' as 'intersex' from here on, as I have been warranted to do; I am distasteful of the word 'cunt' being a casually-used word, even as an additive for a gender-descriptive term. It has its place in society, and using the word 'cuntboy' in public would probably issue the same reaction when used in public, as simply saying the word 'cunt'. It's not the same reaction as if you would get for saying 'hermaphrodite' in public, and even then, you would probably hush your words for even that, unless you had some desire to throw it about like it's something to be respected for.
Anyone who heard the term 'cuntboy' without any idea what it could actually mean, would probably consider it a derogatory term. It's not always about what we, members of the furry fandom, who have a general understanding and leniency of our broad understanding of ideals, feel when we hear it. It's about being respectful to those who are still in the '???' stage, and not pushing them away from the idea before they've even had a chance to comprehend it. Anyone with any social awareness would agree that 'cunt' is often not considered a socially-accepted term. Because of this, I do not like the term 'cuntboy'. Of course, I'll probably still tag my artwork with the word as it's become the norm within the fandom to consider artwork as such, under that title. I would not want someone with the word 'cuntboy' in their blacklists to still have to view said art if they didn't want to. But, I prefer the term 'intersex'.
I'm going to say now that it's very easy to tell I'm probably biased towards drawing intersex, since I draw them very often; heck, even Swizz as a character is intersex! If this is in any way going to impact your response to this comment, then save it; I'm trying to convey *my* opinion on this subject, Nothing you say will convince me otherwise, so it's not worth trying to debate with me about how obviously one-sided my point is. If you feel this is just too much for your brain to handle, that I can have my own opinion on the subject, it's probably best you stop reading now.
OKAY so back to the focal point; intersex is as valid a gender for scrutiny, sexualization and individualism as anything you could possibly think of otherwise. Separating them from everything else is as effective as saying 'pidgeons are more bird than any other kind of bird'; anyone with any kind of understanding of how they work, know you're talking out your ass. If anything, dragging out a specific gender like it's royalty, or some kind of 'precious, innocent flower in need of protection' could be considered akin to why women weren't allowed in the armed forces for far too long. It's fairly disrespectful to judge them as anything other than normal, and with equal rights to be perceived under any light other than 'I'm different and this is why'. It's already been sexualised; there's a reason it's more commonly known as 'cuntboy' than anything else. You are protecting a foundation that is already solidly floored. If people have any reason to not draw intersex, they should not make it about everyone else; they should make it about them and why they do not want to draw them. They should not blame the fandom, or the gender, or its supposed 'innocence' for their own decisions.
This effectively mirrors what Bryce said, but in the end it's all about appearances. We need people to understand that it's not good to face away from what should be considered something that is already growing rapidly into the norm. We need people to embrace it, rather than refute it, no matter what their reasons are. If it's really about respect, then surely a flowing standard for this gender, into the same slipstream that all the other genders are already a part of, be the most tangent solution? Homosexuality has been frowned upon for a long-ass time, and nobody uses 'because we're not comfortable with it' in the actual debates, because it's quite honestly not a good argument. Does that give us reason to find other excuses to further that cause in reality's stead?
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view5/19.....te-panda-o.gif
Intersex and Transgender are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. One is a person being born as a gender (that, should they have chosen to identify with that gender, would have no reason medically or otherwise for anyone to consider them the opposite or without a gender or inbetween) and then just not identifying with that gender. The other is someone who is born with genital defects that make it so that their genitalia doesn't fit with what one would identify as inherently male or female.
http://www.isna.org/faq/what_is_intersex
Two completely different things. An intersex person isn't always cut and dry a male with a vagina or a female with a penis. That's not how it works. As a transgender male, I'd be pretty irritated if people started trying to mix the two. Transgender is transgender and intersex is intersex. I am not intersex, but I am transgender. I was born female, inside and out physically female. I have no physical male traits (other than the ones starting to form from hormones) to make any doctor who saw me and didn't know go "intersex" they would go "female".
On the point of the original journal, I think it's horribly fucked up and the artist you're speaking of is just...backwards as shit. His stipulation made absolutely no sense. If it's the same pose, how would one not be fetishizing something but the other would be? Intersex and transgender are two different things, but in this fandom in the realm of fantasy, they look completely the same! What the actual fuck kinda logic was that mess?
I have not yet encountered an artist who flat out refused to draw my sona, but to sit there and make it a point to separate people for the basis of some bullshit claim (when you allow the fetishizing of EVERYTHING THE HELL ELSE) and then claim you're some advocate for trans rights is bullshit. As a transgender person, we DO NOT need allies like this. Everyone is equal. Separating any one of us makes it seem like you're just a jerk.
Hee, mind who you're calling defective ;)
Anyway yes, agreed, there's a world of difference. Though if someone confused me or my character for FtM I wouldn't be irritated or offended, I'd just gently correct them. It's difficult for people to tell us apart in furry art, and they probably don't mean anything by it. Like you, I certainly don't see transgender people as any more or less than their intersex peers, just as I wouldn't be offended if someone mistook me for female.
We're right at the frontier of societal progress here, and while we have reason on our side, it's good to remember that not everyone's caught up with the facts yet - most people spend their whole lives not knowing, thinking, or talking about this kind of stuff, even people like myself who were born with 'defective' genitals and had them 'corrected' shortly after birth, so I can hardly blame people for not knowing/realising/having a considered opinion on it :)
I can't say agree with that artist's reasoning… I suspect they haven't entirely thought through the implications of their decision, but it's unlikely to be one which is intended to cause offence to intersexed people. I do understand their urge to not participate in what they probably see as trivialising or objectifying something that causes many transgender people deep distress. But in my opinion that's as likely to cause offence as prevent it, as you say. I also think that refusing to engage in challenging issues just means that they'll never be resolved.
(edit: some of the message was to you, some of it was to Bryce, and I was running out of the door to avoid being late for work, so sorry for deleting and reposting)
I wouldn't jump off the handle, just like I wouldn't jump off the handle at someone calling me 'ma'am'. I'm aware of how I look and I'm aware of the fact people might make the mistake, but I'd rather go "hey this isn't right, here's what's correct" than to shrug it off and keep walking. I don't have to be upset enough to slap their faces off, but I'm going to let them know that what they said isn't right and it'd be best if they learned the correct terminology. You or I may not be the type to flip shits at someone mistaking us for one or the other, but I've met many a sensitive transperson, especially going through transition, and if someone so much as HINTED at misgendering them even if the person had no way of even knowing what was going on, they flew off the handle like someone kicked their dog. I think it's best to be informative in the case of something like that rather than to be hostile.
It's the same as the term 'cunt boy.' I'd MUCH rather you say transgender, because my bio-dick (what i call my "birth defect") isn't what defines me. I hate that it's there. I wish it was something else. So I don't really like to be identified as the one thing that causes many people to say I'm not a real man. I use it because people understand it more. It's more widely known. I can say "Oh Sin's a cunt boy pretty much" to an artist and have them get it rather than have to explain what transgender is and having that, as it usually does, turn into this whole big discussion. Cunt boy can be an offensive term, and I don't use it to indicate someone else's character because...holy shit some people would slap all kinds of shit out of my face, but I understand it's usage, just like i understand why people would think intersexed and transgender are the same thing. Hell, even I thought it was the same thing when I was seeing some intersexed characters.
I thought that I should even be labeling Sin as intersexed until I actually looked up the definition out of curiosity.
I mean absolutely zero harm with my discussion!
Personally I'd never use the term cuntboy to describe an FtM person… quite aside from it being grossly offensive to many, it's just… ugh, crass, y'know? I coined the term "vagentleman" to describe myself just to get away from it, so I can only imagine how maddening it must be for a lot of transgendered people who really don't want an aspect of their body they don't want, don't like, and don't want to think about being used to sum up their identity.
I honestly didn't even know the term 'cuntboy' had anything to do with transgender people, honestly. I kinda thought it was a thing like how herms in the fandom are loads different from the ones in real life. Like cuntboy was a thing where you'd have unrealistic body expectations for a transgender person. Like a fantasy term used to describe a fictional happening. Only relatively recently did I even learn there was a connection between the two. I just assumed they were two different things. Hell one of my characters, Solace, is labled as a C-boy while Sin is transgender. lol
Personally I idealise/fetishise my sex and gender in art. I don't know many people who don't, though I think the artist in question might mean something other than I do. As I said to aoki_chuichi22, I do understand the artist's urge to not participate in what they probably see as trivialising or objectifying something that causes many transgender people deep distress, but I think talking about issues is better than not talking about issues, and I think that avoiding drawing certain subjects/topics in order to avoid causing offence can perpetuate the very problem it's trying to avoid. People remain offended and see offence and conflicts instead of a celebration of life and sexuality in all its forms, and that's a terrible shame.
As usual, really.
I agree with you.
Anyway, I've been turned down by artists but I've never taken it personally, probably because I'm not trans or intersex in any way myself. (I've looked at penile inversion surgery out of curiosity before but never seriously looking to have it) I think for some artists who say 'no c-boys, trans ok' it's exactly my concern that they think people are just making characters with random genitals and think it demeans actual trans people. And I'm sure there are trans people that have no problem at all with herms, c-boys, dickgirls, and the use of such less genteel terms for them. Sex and sexuality is a viciously personal thing; it can and always will cause friction like this. I think the key is to sometimes take a step back and try to understand why someone feels the way they do about something related to sexuality.
And since I've gone on about gender, must mention my favorite video on the topic: http://youtu.be/xXAoG8vAyzI
Also, I personally shy away from the c-boy word. It is a bit ugly, along the lines of the word tranny nowadays. (and something like vagentleman is much more fun to say XD)
And yeah while it doesn't bother me too much personally I still try to avoid the term cuntboy whenever I can. I still tag pictures with it simply for searching but besides that I try to avoid it as I know it bothers some, and just doesn't sound too pleasant in general.
Either way, don't worry about us (or me at least, I can't speak for everyone) thinking you're expropriating my sex or something, I love your character ;P
From there came an idea for a whole literary world where alternative genders are not only more common, but historically accepted as a normal thing, and what kind of society would arise from that. I have yet to write it all down since I'm notorious for waffling on starting points for anything I do, but it's a project I want to flesh out at some point.
And thanks for the vote of confidence; glad you like him! XD
I would NEVER discriminate, whether the pic is yiff or not.
I'm so sorry you've had that happen to you.
Just know that me and a huge part of the fandom support you and love you regardless.
the only time i draw NSFW it's always cboys because nearly everything else erks me
Its always so odd to see an artist draw these odd lines of what is acceptable, and not acceptable,
Will draw,
-Albinos
-Thursdays
-Chinese
Will NOT draw
-Unicorns
-Men in their 30's
-Long carboxyl chains
It's all so arbitrary.
I like artist that just tell you they don't feel like it. Why there has to be some arbitrary ethical code is far beyond my comprehension.
In there mind they are likpy helping others by preventing people who have intersexed chars because its popular from spreading some kink and protecting those that actualy see themselves as intersexed. Cus true intersexed people would not bother getting art of themselves like that becuase they are either asamed, private person, don't want to be seen as difrent ect.
Artists as a general rule make art because they enjoy doing so. Those who make a business out of it have merely found a way of making some money off their passion. Usually not much money, especially when you consider the amount of time invested versus other forms of employment.
As a human being there are going to be things that just genuinely squick them out. Subjects that they are not comfortable engaging in. Things that would take the enjoyment right out of the process, or some things that they believe they would simply not be capable of putting the same kind of creative energy into.
There are people out there who are just genuinely squicked out by homosexuality, transsexuals, transformation, etc. The responsible thing to do in that case is to say "I'm sorry but I don't wish to engage in that subject." Even though you might not agree that their distaste for such subjects is warranted, they are dealing with it in a mature manner.
Many artists will feel the need or be asked to justify their position, find some reasonable sounding reason to turn down your offer. These are usually made up after the fact and as such often don't make much sense. Especially given that the simple and more truthful explanation of "I am not comfortable with homosexuals" or the like isn't all that socially acceptable within our community.
TLDR: Some people are not going to be comfortable with your gender, sexuality or other interests. Yes, it is inconvenient sometimes, but we are all inconvenienced by things we were just born into.