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About Patreon, clarifications.
11 years ago
So, I will have to be forced to do a second journal about this, because it seems that I didn't explained me clearly or people didn't understand at all.
For the first, I never criticise any artists here who are using Patreon to pay their bills and living from what they like and what they spend their time with.
I like a lot of artists, but with the time, more and more is joining Patreon, making exclusive content for their supporters, good, I understand that.
My problem is that I can't really pay donations to all of them, I would do it for a couple, or idk, but I don't have the money to support 10 or 20 artists monthly, so, if I'm pissed, is due this, because with the apperance of Patreon, if I want to continue seeing their good pics, I will have to pay, and I will not be able, so, that makes me, more than angry or pissed, sad.
But I never state that the artists are selfish, greedy or any other shit that was posted in the comments by other people, I accept their decission and I'm not going to blame them for trying to get money of their work.
For the second, maybe I'm wrong, but clearly some people are indeed, giving more effort to work in their Patreon, than their normal galleries, still, thats understandable, It prints money after all! But after all, I think that these places, like DA, FA, IB etc, was made to share your drawings and ideas with your friends and other people, not just to sell stuff, but again, this is my personal opinion. And indeed, as I clearly said in my last post, for ME, drawing is a hobby, I'm not pretending to make a live with them, so, I will not going to join Patreon, AND, I never said, that drawing is a hobby for all the people, I have a lot of friends here that lives with their work, but all in all, my last journal was explaining MY point of view, and what I will do about this, I'm not saying what is good or bad, or if the artists should join or not Patreon, is their decision.
But for the end of this, I'm just claiming that, if an artist that I admire, abandone their normal gallery, just to dedicate exclusively for Patreon, I will not continue watching them, after all, is not useful for me to watch a gallery that is never updated, or updated one time each two months.
A lot of you says that an artist who have a Patreon will not abandon their gallery, well I hope all of you are right, because I already see artists who did that, I'm not going to give names, because is not something criticizable, they pick their path and we have to respect it, but time will say.
Also, for those who are laughing at me or post offensive comments against me, please, spit the shit out of your mouth, or you will not be able to breath, I'm free to express my opinion, accept it or not, but if my idea don't coincide with yours, you don't have to treat me like an idiot, I didn't offend anyone.
For the first, I never criticise any artists here who are using Patreon to pay their bills and living from what they like and what they spend their time with.
I like a lot of artists, but with the time, more and more is joining Patreon, making exclusive content for their supporters, good, I understand that.
My problem is that I can't really pay donations to all of them, I would do it for a couple, or idk, but I don't have the money to support 10 or 20 artists monthly, so, if I'm pissed, is due this, because with the apperance of Patreon, if I want to continue seeing their good pics, I will have to pay, and I will not be able, so, that makes me, more than angry or pissed, sad.
But I never state that the artists are selfish, greedy or any other shit that was posted in the comments by other people, I accept their decission and I'm not going to blame them for trying to get money of their work.
For the second, maybe I'm wrong, but clearly some people are indeed, giving more effort to work in their Patreon, than their normal galleries, still, thats understandable, It prints money after all! But after all, I think that these places, like DA, FA, IB etc, was made to share your drawings and ideas with your friends and other people, not just to sell stuff, but again, this is my personal opinion. And indeed, as I clearly said in my last post, for ME, drawing is a hobby, I'm not pretending to make a live with them, so, I will not going to join Patreon, AND, I never said, that drawing is a hobby for all the people, I have a lot of friends here that lives with their work, but all in all, my last journal was explaining MY point of view, and what I will do about this, I'm not saying what is good or bad, or if the artists should join or not Patreon, is their decision.
But for the end of this, I'm just claiming that, if an artist that I admire, abandone their normal gallery, just to dedicate exclusively for Patreon, I will not continue watching them, after all, is not useful for me to watch a gallery that is never updated, or updated one time each two months.
A lot of you says that an artist who have a Patreon will not abandon their gallery, well I hope all of you are right, because I already see artists who did that, I'm not going to give names, because is not something criticizable, they pick their path and we have to respect it, but time will say.
Also, for those who are laughing at me or post offensive comments against me, please, spit the shit out of your mouth, or you will not be able to breath, I'm free to express my opinion, accept it or not, but if my idea don't coincide with yours, you don't have to treat me like an idiot, I didn't offend anyone.
Warning: Long message here......
ok. I too long wanted to join and be a PATREON Creator since April, But I go a Big problem that Stabs into my soul that My country don`t do Paypal receive currency or literally my place don`t want foreign currency. That hit me and Piss me big time.(unless If i can use my neighboring country that has no idea they can paypal withdraw since i hear its many of its islands can do that.)
Second problem is that I don`t know how to do Paypal and do patreon`s banking stuff, no one in my country ever do withdraws in paypal (due to the country laws)
IF I can DO PATREON? (to fans /creators suggestion)
I wont plan like anyone to just paid to see. I would REOPEN "Request art" Listening fans or patrons what they like me to draw or what I to correct my upcoming art. so those who spoke will be rewards in the finish product.
Overall, Im still supportive to you , i can`t do patreon thing unless i understand it. to others who join is their choice. me im still do what been doing since i join here. :) (peace)
Apologize in advance if my speech is too head-scratching. :)
But it's not a major problem , since most artists using patreon STILL make everything they have public and simply seeks a little more financial supports , and I totally understand that.
Others makes some patreon content for patreons supporters , THEN , 2 weeks later (example) , they make it public. There's no problems!
But yeah....there is so many you wanna support that it would cost a lot per 2-4 weeks (sometimes PER picture...ugh) to support all your favorites ones. Most of us don't have 50 bucks to lose every month...but some don't care.
I share your opinion , but I don't think those who makes patreon a bad thing should be name-hidden and protected , to explain why I gave a name...but be free to hide my message if you don't tolerate that.
I'm not being arrogant.
I'm not going to quibble over it.
Also to CrashnBashX that decided to block me before I reply:
Not chewing out, but confused as to why Patreons and YCHs were a bad thing as a lot of people were speaking out in the previous journal. :T
But again, I'm not gunna quibble over it.
An artist decides that they have a specific pose they want to do, so they sketch it up before-hand and post it as a YCH. Random Furry sees a pose that s/he likes (because the convenience of a YCH is that the potential buyer can see the pose ahead of time.) so random furry bids on it.
What the general populus sees (ie, people like Crash, or me, or other random furries) is that the artist is often making MORE off of a YCH than they do off of their commissions.
Now, there are a lot of factors that go into that number (so lets break them down).
-Artist had pose done ahead of time, and it's likely a pose that the artist themselves wanted to draw. To me, this means that the art shouldn't be as expensive? I mean, normal commissions mean that the commissioner chooses pose and topic and all that fun crap. Technically speaking, the artist did a bit of the work ahead of time.
-BECAUSE of the fact that it's partly done, the turnover time is faster. Which, to me, is a nice benefit. I know a lot of artists don't even offer rush fees (for understandable reasons) or if they DO offer rush fees, they're pretty pricey (again, for understandable reasons.) However, a YCH isn't quite in the same grouping as a rush fee, so it's one of those things I can't quite put a price on.
-People, in general, are competitive. A YCH takes advantage of that, sadly. People get into bid wars- partly because they want art, but partly due to competition. Why else would an artist who normally charges say $50 for a shaded piece end up getting $100-200 on a YCH for the same quality? Do I believe there are furries out there that really want to support artists? Sure I do! But I think a lot of times the huge prices people see on YCH's come from random furry having more money than they know what to do with, and they get into a bid war and spend a ton on a YCH when they could have gotten 2 or 3 or 4 commissions for a similar price.
Now, I can (personally) justify spending more on a YCH if-
-It's a fetish/style/something the artist doesn't normally do. (IE, the artist never draws femboys. The YCH offers a chance to get a femboy from the artist. OR The artist never includes their personal fursona/character in NSFW art with commissioners- the YCH offers a chance for that.)
-The artist is closed right now and/or have been closed for a while, and the YCH offers a chance to get art from them while they're closed.
-The artist genuinely needs funds for a legit thing, and they can't take on more commissions because of said legit thing. (IE- computer is on the fritz all of a sudden, need funds now to try and fix computer. Can't take on a bunch more commissions because of computer being on the fritz.)
The above three things I can definitely understand, and I don't have any issue whatsoever with that sort of thing.
To be fair, though, planning ahead is indeed a thing. There are artists out there who constantly take on commissions but also constantly seem to be needing money (not naming names, but I'm sure you know one of the huge offenders on this list- as should everyone who reads this comment). Budgeting is a thing- and that's why (especially) "emergency" YCH's or character commissions or whatever kinda get on my (and I'm sure other people's as well) nerves.
As I said on a lower comment- I don't know an artist's expenses or budget, just as they don't know mine. I believe everyone deserves to be paid for the work that they do- and I think a lot of ire comes not from artists making "too much" but the fact that the general citizen makes too little.
To me, though, YCH's are a mixed blessing. Depending on what they offer, they can be a really good deal! But sometimes, they're really not a good deal.
I believe it's both up to the artists AND the potential buyers to think about this- for the general buyer to consider that they may be spending more money on a YCH that they could just commission for, and for the artist to go "Hmm. I'm open for this type of commissions, and this is something that I can and will draw. Rather than opening it up to auction, I'll set it at a first come, first served flat price, because otherwise it might seem unfair."
To be fair, I do notice more artists who do the "first come, first served" YCH flat price. It's usually at the price of or slightly below their "normal" commission price for that style. Alternately, I'll see them do it as a ladder auction (still along the same price guidelines, but now with options to upgrade to cell shaded or whatever.)
I don't think Patreon is evil, but I do think it's starting to go along the lines of gofundme/kickstarter/whatever. I think it's a good tool, but I also think it's being abused.
My meaning was more that I worry about it having "fad" status. Using Patreon has become the "cool thing" to do. As kipper0308 said, a lot of artists are jumping on the bandwagon. While there are people that can benefit from it, I feel like it does more for people who are already successful, or maybe for people who are promoting it to meet a specific, reasonably immediate goal. My concern is more that, for a lot of people, using Patreon aren't going to get many donations, and that's going to keep them from getting the exposure that they otherwise would have, and maybe act as a roadblock to success, instead of a way to help people.
I feel anyone can do that with a single FA Journal, offer exclusive to people paying a certain number of cash and viola, all money is yours, why would I want my money to be cutted to paypal AND patreon?
Then again, I am not understanding this patreon thingy clearly~
I'll support whoever artist I wanna support, or actually, PRIORITIZE who to support if I actually see them in tight spots~
Do I think it's a great tool for artists? Sure do! But I feel like a lot of artists are jumping on the bandwagon (and, no offense, I think there are indeed some artists who maybe don't need the extra income from it, but that's just me and my opinion. I don't know their bills/expenses and whatnot. Not saying anyone should have to live like a pauper but...) and unfortunately, I think a lot of fans are sitting there with stars in their eyes, donating money because "Oooh, it's my favorite artist, I MUST donate money to them."
Also, I kinda want to giggle. Notice the fact that a lot of the people getting butthurt over your last journal were basically the "guilty parties" so to speak.
My PERSONAL belief is this-
Artists deserve to be paid, they also have every right to have a livable wage. I think a lot of the ire comes not from artists being paid too much (although, to be fair, there are some I see making what seems like a ridiculous amount of money- but again, I don't know their expenses, I don't know their budget, who am I to judge?) but the general populus being paid too little.
What I mean by that is this- there are people out there who, like myself, slave away for many hours a week (by many, I mean over 40.) and still can't afford to live, despite the fact that both of my jobs pay over "minimum wage". We can afford to get art here and there, but we can't really treat ourselves, and we also don't have the freedom to go and do things as easily because of the time being spent.
So when you can see that some artists (on average) are making considerably more per hour than we are, it is kinda upsetting. Again- I'm not saying that artists don't deserve to be paid- please, no one take it as such.
It's more the fact that a lot of people are hopping on the bandwagon of "Oh. Artists put up with difficult customers. Artists have spent years of tears and blood and effort to improve their skills. Artists should therefore make more than minimum wage/should make more than average,"
While I don't disagree (as in, I do agree artists should make more than minimum wage) I DO disagree with how much certain artists are making.
I want people to realize this. Some artists are making $20 an hour or more (which, at least around here, is much more than is needed for living costs; living costs being rent/normal bills like water, electricity, food, health insurance, gas, etc.) But what is UPSETTING about that is this- artists not only are making more than most jobs around here, but the artists also have the liberty to take a break whenever they feel like it. They have the liberty to go "Oh. I don't feel like working today, I'll work a little extra tomorrow to make up for it." (Not saying that artists can't have deadlines, sometimes they do, but it seems that on average stuff here doesn't seem to be any deadlines.) Not only that, but while some commissioners are bad, sometimes you run into really good commissioners/other artists and become friends. Then, not only do you have a friend when you go to furry/anime conventions, there's also that chance that you're getting free art/gift art from an equally good artist.
Do artists deserve to be paid? Yes indeed. HOWEVER, people aren't seeming to take into account the "benefits" that artists get when they're talking about how much artists get paid.
This is just speaking from my experiences- but I don't get to take a break whenever I want to. I don't get to decide to take a day off whenever I want to. I don't get to make "friends" as easily in my job (and if I do make friends, they certainly aren't usually in to the same things that I am- so I'd never be able to take them to a convention) and they certainly don't give me gifts. Those are a LOT of benefits, in my opinion, and to be honest, I would take money out of my paycheck to be able to have them.
I also want to throw out there that a lot of these artists are digital artists. While I do agree that it takes skill to master any art style, I do feel that digital is kinda... cheating. I mean, you have filler tools, transform tools, shading tools... all of these TOOLS to do what really should take many more hours of practice to get solid (not saying that you don't still need some practice/talent to use them correctly, but artists- do they or do they not shave time off of a commission?)
Don't like a line? Ah, just grab the transform tool. You can shrink it, stretch it, rotate it, etcetera, until it fits the pose you want it. Why erase when you can just move it about? Doesn't it suck to have to painstakingly fill in your lines of color? Grab the filler/highlight tools. You can select a whole section and basically do the paintcan thing of dumping color into it. Same basic principle goes for the shading tool, etc.
So not only do artists have benefits that standard workers don't have, they also basically have ways to "cheat" at doing their art.
Can I see artists being paid $20 or more an hour? Yes, I can. I see it all the time as it is- but I think a lot of people would find it less upsetting to the wallet if overall minimum wage increased. As I said, I think it's a combination of things that make this an upsetting topic.
And you're telling me that, not only do they get paid more per hour than someone like myself- but they're also setting up a money funding site where, as long as people keep donating (which they will) they continue to get more income?
How is that fair?
Well, sweetcheeks. Life isn't fair. Supply and demand exists- silly furries will always blow money, that's how it's been since pretty much the beginning of time.
Again. This is all opinion. I don't know an artists expenses, just as they don't know mine. I'm not asking to get pulled into the drama storm that happened, as this is really just my take/two cents of the whole ordeal. I just ask that people also see from my side (ie, the side of those people who spend multiple hours a week at jobs just to try and live- but without the benefits.)
Life is chaos, chaos is indiscriminate in who or what it will inflict itself upon and it makes no distinction between friend or foe, everyone is a victim. Therefore: Life is fair. It's the man-made systems such as supply and demand that are not fair, and the nonsensical requirements for a career that are unfair along with the paradox of having to spend money to make money.
I'm well aware that life itself is fair (albeit in a confusing and roundabout way), but there are definitely daily aspects that come along with life that aren't. *points at the whole conversation, basically*
Reagrdless, like I said, sarcasm/joking. I guess that's hard to tell through text.
The internet is tone deaf, and devoid of inflection.