Well said, Wolf. Well said.

Yeah, these murders have no possible excuse or justification. It was a vicious attack on freedom of speech and, tangentially, freedom of religion. I hope the bastards behind this are caught quickly, and caught alive, to stand trial.

I fully agree with your other point, too. Taking this terrorist attack and blaming every Muslim for it, or viewing it as evidence for some implacable clash of civilizations, is just playing into the hands of the extremists and hatemongers.

Well said, Woof. Especially at the end.

No god, no religion has ever said killing another human being is a good thing. Anybody who claims otherwise is lying.

True. I'm gonna do my part to make sure this cowardly crime completely fails at it's aim of suppressing free speech.

*HUGS YOU* and is right there along side you with that thought!!

As you have in the past.

*pats copy of 'What Right?' on the shelf*

No big surprise, the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund front page is all about this attack right now.

Its just bad that humor is beginning to turn out being regarded as dangerous enough to justify murder.

This is neither new nor limited to humor. Anything that doesn't praise or otherwise speak positively about Mohammed or Islam in general is targeted by that particular brand of asshats.

The idea of dangerous humor was my favorite part of the movie "The Name of the Rose." In essence: Laughter destroys fear. If people have no fear they will not fear the devil. If there is no fear of the devil, what need is there of God? Also, a secondary question of, if anything is acceptable for mockery, could one mock God? Powerful stuff.

Beginning to? It's been this way for a very long time. Thousands of years, even.

Sadly, and somewhat frighteningly, the internet is making plain just how little reason broken and damaged individuals need to do harm and commit murder: insignificant differences, "for the lulz" and perhaps most horrifingly "to see how it felt".

I'm not one to put down the concept of free speech, but one has to remember that the people who committed this crime don't actually believe in it. When you do something that you KNOW is going to get a group known for insane reactions and general behavior upset, you have to understand the possible consequences.

I'm sure to these artists, it was just a harmless joke, but I can't believe none of them knew who they were poking fun at or how they were likely to react. It's like walking in the savannah, seeing a pride of lions or a pack of hyena, and knowing full well what's likely to happen, throwing rocks at them. Practicing free speech is all well and good, but when you do something dangerous, sometimes bad things happen.

I'm very sorry these people were killed and these extremists again pulled off such a horrible crime for no real reason. But I can't help feeling they might have gone too far with the wrong people.

They were very aware of this. In 2006, Charlie Hebdo published the unfamous Mahomet drawings first published by the Jylland-Posten. Their building was set afire during the night.
In 2011, after they published a special "Chariah Hebdo" issue, their building was blasted by a bomb (again, at night this time).

Stephane Charbonnier commented "I have no kids, no wife, no car, no debts. It might sounds pompous, but I prefer to die standing up than live on my knees."
"We (the Charlie staff) don't want to live in fear. We just want to have fun[...] I don't feel like I'm slicing a throath with my pen. I don't put lives in danger. When activists want a reason to justify their violence, they always find one"
Charbonnier was warned by the French Government that after this 2011 issue, he was on the most wanted list of Al Quaida. He admitted being afraid of it. Yet, he stood up.

They stood up every time because they beleived that free speech is the most important thing.
When this journal was created in he 60's, it was named "Hara-Kiri, stubborn and stupid newspaper". They made a joke of De Gaulle's death, resulting in Hara Kiri being banned (which must be I think, one of the last newspaper/book France have banned) The next week, as a joke, and to express this freedom of speech, Charlie Hebo was born, in a twisted joke to the government; Charlie being a nickname of Charles De Gaulle (in the context).

I'm pretty sure they would never expected a terrorist attack on them and the journal. On Charbonnier? They did. On the newspaper' building? Wouldn't have been a first. But on them altogether? Surely not. Yet, they probably knew that they were putting themselves at risk.

Their deaths remind us that liberty isn't a natural right, nor an acquired right. They remind us that we are at war with the extremist wishing to tell us what we can and can't say.

And, in memory of their satirical and disrespectful attitude toward conventions (but not people, never people), I'll quote Wolinski about his though about death.

"After my death, I asked my wife to have me incinerated, and to throw my ashes in the toilet. So I could see her ass everyday"

Bravo pour une declaration eloquente!
Il est bon de voir que «Liberte, egalite, fraternite" a toujours des voix fortes!

Merci.
Leurs mort m'a ému aux larmes. J'ai pleuré devant la télévision, et je n'en ai pas honte. Je ne suis pas artiste, pas écrivain (je n'ai pas une grande imagination) mais je suis capable de manier le stylo quand j'en ai envie. Et là, j'en ai plus qu'envie, j'en ai besoin. De dire au monde qu'il ne faut pas oublier qu'a travers les époques, on s'est battu pour la liberté. C'est même pour moi la seule chose qui vaille la peine de se battre.

Certes on peut penser "qu'ils l'ont mérité", ce serait les insulter que de vouloir empêcher de le dire. Mais il ne faut pas laisser le monde devenir un endroit ou on peut mourir pour ses idées, pour ce que l'on dit, ce que l'on pense.

And shall we forget Theo Van Gogh?

I'm afraid I've never heard of him so I can't comment.

Ah, Theo Van Gogh was a Dutchman who was killed for producing a film criticizing the treatment of women in certain Islamic circles a decade ago.

I appreciate what they were doing when they did this. I think I understand what they were trying to do as well. But I have to stress again. The ones who eventually killed these artists are the type of being who don't respect humanity in general. They're unlikely at best to respect human rights... or to even recognize humans as HAVING rights. To them it doesn't matter if you're just trying to make people laugh, or if you feel you're representing free speech or liberty. These people enslave their own countrymen; force their own children to serve in wars; murder their own women for the slightest thing with o real purpose. Anyone not of their religion is a target to be killed. Poking fun is inviting them to try harder than usual to kill you, and they're the kind of people who are more than willing to do so.

I think it was a brave, yet ultimately foolish thing to keep poking fun at things they knew would eventually result in something bad happening. I feel sorry for them, and I hope they catch the ones who did it. I hope it never happens again. But I can't not think that *maybe* they shouldn't have done it. Maybe it's my own thoughts on not starting trouble where none is needed.

I'm afraid that I just can't agree with you here. Certainly when someone publishes something controversial, they expect some backlash, but not speaking freely because some lunatic, somewhere, might take enough offense to come and do you harm, is conceptually appalling, a self-inflicted slavery to fear. Speaking isn't dangerous, there is no danger in thought, except to the ignorant, narrow-minded and insane. Certainly it would be unwise (and boorish) to display such images or discuss such things in the presence of someone who you know might take offense, but to extend your analogy: these artists didn't go to the savannah, the hyenas came to them.

I'm sorry you disagree completely, and don't see my point.

I believe in free speech too. I don't think people should have died over this comic. But the problem is, when it comes to this religion, it's not just one lunatic somewhere. It's hundreds of them, and they're EVERYWHERE. Analogies aren't going to cut it, I guess; I can't make a comparison that can get across to you well enough. But when hundreds of people are overrunning their own countries and killing their own people and enslaving children over their religion, it seems like asking for trouble to start poking fun at them.

Again. It's NOT right what happened. Maybe they wanted to do it just because people thought it was dangerous or crazy. But it's hard to see how this *wouldn't* result in some kind of craziness happening, because everyone knows the ones who were going to take offense ARE CRAZY, and their usual response to things they don't like is to kill themselves and anyone else to demonstrate just how insane they are.

Look up the concept of the Heckler's Veto.

There's nothing to be gained by treating attacks of this type as some sort of force of nature that just happens. That lets the real people doing this off the hook.

I think almost everyone is overlooking something.

This has nothing to do with sanity. Nothing to do with America or laws, or common sense, or freedom of speech or expression or liberty.

It has everything to do with madmen who will kill themselves right along with you to prove a point to you. You know... after they've killed you. They don't even care what the survivors think; they were aiming at YOU when they blew themselves up or what have you.

If you take concepts of like freedom of speech and freedom of expression and humanity and apply it to that comic in the civilized parts of the world, it's highly unlikely anything would have happened. But in those parts of the world... and in their own minds, since what these fanatics call religion is so different from what a sane Muslim practices it's not even funny... where these people come from, saying those same things can get you shot or raped or beaten to death. People have no worth in the eyes of these crazies.

I'm not saying the cartoonists shouldn't have drawn their cartoons. I'm saying they should have gone in knowing what was likely to happen and been more careful. And apparently reading some of the previous comments, they at least knew there was a danger. A lot of people are saying they shouldn't have even been careful about it, and that I think is where I don't agree. There's things that are just dangerous to do, and whether they SHOULD be safe to do doesn't mean they're GOING to be safe to do.

...Maybe I'm just saying it they wrong way or something. Or maybe not and no one agrees or can even see what I'm saying.

I'm not saying the cartoonists shouldn't have drawn their cartoons.
Then perhaps you should stop saying that they should have thought twice before drawing those cartoons.

Bluntly, you come off as victim blaming, every bit as much as someone who blames the short skirt a woman was wearing for the fact that she was assaulted.

If you do not want to come off that way, then perhaps you should think about what you are saying rather than doubling down again and saying we're the ones not understanding what you're saying. If lots of people are misunderstanding you, perhaps you didn't present yourself as clearly as you might like. Or perhaps the 'possible consequences' of your statement run a lot deeper than you've thought.

lol. Hostility.

No, I don't think I'm going to stop saying what I think, and I don't think you should be telling me I shouldn't say what I think... anymore than you seem to think those artists should have stopped drawing those comics.

Your analogy of my blaming these people being like blaming a woman in a short skirt for being assaulted is inaccurate. It would be more like a woman dressing in a short skirt, then teasing and tempting a known rapist to rape her being responsible for her own rape. These cartoonists KNEW they were tempting people who kill, rape and torture even their own people by drawing this, yet they felt the risk was worth it in order to display their freedom and right to express themselves. But, much like the rapist in my example here, the people being taunted don't recognize human rights, or humanity at all. They are completely ok with not only killing other humans, but themselves if they feel it's necessary to get their "revenge" or whatever they call it.

I supposed I *am* blaming the victims here. They knew what they were doing, they knew there were risks, and they not only started this, but kept it up way past the point of them being made a priority by these psychos. So yeah, you can take it that way to a certain point.

Sorry, nope. The people at Charlie Hedbo had every right to say and draw what they felt like doing, without fear of repercussion or death. This wasn't fire in a crowded theater, this wasn't hate speech, this wasn't a call to violence, this was HUMOR. If anyone does something about it because they can't deal with satire in a rational, sane manner, it's not the victim's fault. EVER. In fact, this is the kind of speech we should be protecting the hardest, because it is reactionary and it is volatile, but they still had every right to say it without fear of violent repercussion. Because if we live in a world where the Westboro Baptist's Church's disgusting drivel is constitutionally protected, and Charlie Hedbo gets a "Well, you kinda had it coming," response, we have failed as a species.

I never said they didn't have a right to say or do what they did that got them killed in the end. I'm saying that, looking at what they were doing and who they were dealing with, they shouldn't be surprised this is how it turned out, or have expected anything less. I"m also saying that, if they didn't want this sort of thing to be the end result, they should have considered what they were doing, and the type of crazed fanatics they were dealing with.

The people who killed these artists would probably have been just as happy to die if they couldn't have escaped. They don't really consider humans in general to be important,so how could anyone expect them to respect a human's rights? It's an almost logical progression that if you make fun of these people's beliefs, at some point they're going to try to kill you, and possibly succeed. They kill people just because those people don't believe *exactly* as they do; look at what the IS is doing to their own countries!

And just so you understand... I'm not saying "well, you kinda had it coming." I'm saying "It's pretty much expected." which isn't the same thing. It's not the artists fault they got killed, but they should have (and from some of the other posts I've seen in response to mine, they DID) expected something like this might happen. It's less a case of "If you stand on the train tracks and get hit by the train it's your own fault." than "If you stand on the tracks, there's a chance you might get hit by a train; you might want to be careful." But it seems they knew the risks and took them anyway. Not much can be said about that.

Here, here!

I've been through enough "developed" and "developing" countries long enough to not be surprised by this sort of activity. There are growing problems many don't want to address. However, for creative minds, in particular visual artists, the best and only way to respond to this sort of activity is to exercise your own rights to free speech and do so.

i live in france, i didnt know about it immediatly till i saw the news on a UK channel, i went to a french channel to see to my horror how close to home it was (about 4 hours drive...), not agreeing with what the journalists did is one thing, but going there and murder 12 people (7 journalists, 2 police officers), injure 10 in cold blood is a line to never cross... ever...

*HUGS YOU* and is right there along side you with that thought!! ( that last part about "may Allah treat them the same way they treated their victims" when they arrive and protest that they did it in the dietys name... and, of course, any self respecting diety should then blast them with mountains of evidence that they are SUCH idiots doing this crud in his name and making him the fallguy of all their stupidity..

Dramatic god-like gesture: "Let the Rewards commense.. first up is the few hundred thousand innocent people you've destoryed during your lives in "my" name..each one of them has a SPECIAL reward for you... *Grins*

http://www.furaffinity.net/view/15418095/

For me...when I heard what happened, I was shocked but honestly not surprised.
Of course my condolences for the families of the victims, b/c it shouldn't have that way.
Also the same place that the old cartoon was drawn had ALOT of high security until dropped as of recently.

We all know that in every world culture, there are ways of thinking and philosophy that have been spread throughout
each of thier own history. Some of great importances and others of mere coincedences. Some people are happy to spread the knowledge,
and others are pretty protective to the point where they don;t anything to with anyone else and vice versa. Some societies have gone to the point
where they are so protective, they form what is known to some psychologist or philosophers called a "Tribal Mentality." It pretty much means that they
don;t take nothing of wisdom, value, advice, or even a friendly gesture from anyone who is a complete outsider. Believe it if you want to or not, but there are societyies in todays world and even
from the past that still think this way. Another word for this:

Xenophobia:

An unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange.

Depending on what is known or depicted in either ways of life or even belief can trigger the ugliness in
society.Even a common Christian can go bat shit insane from something that upsets him or her depending on tolerance they have.

What happened with France is the fact that this was a reaction to what is known as a very very very sacred prophet to the muslims in what they believe.
Some christians can take a joke which people can commonly understand, even from an atheist's point of humor, btu some people are that prideful and protective.
Like any country in rich history will defend their nation to the last punch, the muslims will too.
Radicalism however is one subject that is called into question so much, that not many people know how to fully analyze in how people can react to such events.
They go another country to kill people, in a reaction. This is where we know how chaotic people can be....but it's only just our way of thinking through rational thought.
I can give you 2 examples:

Lars Vilks. The Swedish artist who drew Muhhamed as a dog, still gets death trheats even today.
Hell, he even drew Jesus a s Pedophile.

Also Pope Gregory who started in 590 A.D.
In 592 A.D. (if I have that right) Pope Gregory said something that made a massive majority
of the christian world think only one thing...that the muslim people were a race of beings that need to be wiped from
the face of the planet. "They are not God's people."

These can cause pretty radical reactions.

To put all of this in a nutshell without going all out.

The world has different things in it and it's better to learn what is and what isn't.
Despite what is taken lightly or not, we need to realize that some things are not to be taken lightly.
Even in the finest details as well. It may be our way of rational thought of thinking, but you can poke an animal with
a stick and not realize that eventaully the animal will become annoyed and will bite when you least expect it. What the
people responsible of these killings and the future attackers will need to realize is that we will bite back in defence in they step foot here
or anywhere else,and we can only show what mercy we have, b/c we are not monsters.

I believe in artistic freedom, and anybody who has a love for expressing it, I salute.
Still, my heart, thoughts, and prayers go out to the victims and their families.

Art shouldn't cost life...it's for life to see.

Le fanatisme n'a tout simplement pas de limite...

tu m etonnes... et ca inquiete quand t habites a moins de 400km de paris...

Je ne veux pas te faire peur mais le monde entier est en danger si tu n'as plus le droit de leur dire ta façon de pencer sans te faire tirer une balle dans la tête.

Simply put, Wolf, you said it all. Kudos, sir: succinctly put. <applause>

Not to mention that one of the police officers executed was almost certainly Muslim as well. The people who do this sort of thing have no respect for religion at all, they simply want their own dictates obeyed without question.

One of Charlie's worker they killed is named Mustapha Ourrad, and was born in Algeria. He may not have been a practicing Muslim, but was likely raised as one.

As an ironic twist, they got killed by the GIGN and RAID in a... printing business (unrelated to Charlie Hebdo, and probably just mroe used to print local ads and the likes).

Those people are just disposable tools in the hands of criminal organisations like Al Quaida and ISIS; this is what make it worse because their death was predictible. If not wanted, it was at least expected, and they were traied to react in this way as well.
I'm not saying one should pity them, but they aren't the head.

Well, yes. People have commented that the Danish cartoons years ago that started a lot of this didn't actually attract attention until months afterward when some people started using them to rile their supporters up. The people at the top like having panic and 'their' people being oppressed, because it gives the ones at the top power if they can ensure their followers have nobody else to turn to.

There has been some concern here that the killers were probably set up by someone else, as they seemed far more organized than most such small groups.

An Op/Ed message in the LA Times from someone who had a friend in France gave the best response. When they gave condolences over the loss of the paper, this friend from France said probably the most poignant and succinct words I've yet heard.

Chalie N'est Pas Morte.