Not different at all. This exodus is based on misunderstanding and fearmongering.

Pretty much what it seemed to be :x people love to cry fire and watch the resulting panic, I think ^^

Yeah, this'll blow over soon, just like every other quarterly panic FA has had. Quarterly. For years. :D

Furries are always looking for the latest thing to overreact about.

WAIT....are you telling me most of the furry community is a giant powder keg of drama mongers!?!.....Oh yea that's right they are Yeaa.....I wish people would just relax..

Yeah, like you said - this happens pretty regularly. I think there is merit to the arguments that IMVU will try and monetize FA. Just how remains to be seen. Good, bad or ugly - we'll just have to wait it out and see what happens.

It's not different, people just like to shout loudly. :p

That's what I thought, not that I have a problem with people being concerned or unsure, its good to be cautious, but some people run screaming before they've seen the whole picture x.x

Oh yeah, people have every right to ask why, but some like to throw themselves off the handle and immediately think the worse. It doesn't really help that the latter group tends to be the loudest.

The easiest explanation "Because BWUAAHHH! *flails arms*"

Granted, it's the same reaction people seem to have every 3 or 4 months here when something comes up, but that's the most common reason I seem to keep seeing. :P

I really don't think it much matters. 10 years from now, FA is likely gonna be the same sorta distant memory that FurNation is now anyway. I mean things change. People will just move on when the time comes. Not sure why everyone likes to always make such a big fuss about things.

I honestly can't say how thing's will change, if at all. Personally, I'm remaining neutral in this matter and will just wait and see what happens.

Guess my stance is similar, my eggs arnt all in one basket, so Im curious to see what happens :)

Long story short: Neer is now an employee of IMVU. What's to say that in a short amount of time Neer gets fired and IMVU fucks EVERYONE over?

With Neer's known incompetency, it's going to be bound to happen since IMVU is a known corporation. And as we all know corporations are in it for the money.

I'd say cover your tracks and make sure you have galleries at SoFurry, Weasyl and InkBunny.

Now I must admit I'm rather ignorant to any history that IMVU has, but why the assumption they will fuck people over?
Perhaps I see things a little different, I find it quite interesting that a corporation would have interest in buying/obtaining a furry site largely known for porn :P

I already have those other sites, so Im okay to sit back and see how things pan out :)

It's known for it's high spyware issues among other things. I'd probably search around and find valuable sources or valid complaints against IMVU.

The assumption is because nothing that has been stated by both IMVU and by Dragoneer add up in the slightest. People aren't stupid, and because of that, a lot of furs have a gut feeling that something will go horribly wrong with the site. Including myself.

I'm glad that I've dispersed but I also am a bit disappointed at others that refuse to leave or diversify due to laziness/complacency

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqH21LEmfbQ

That's the FA Theme song right there!

Honestly at this point I haven't seen anything really solid to leave over.. a lot of people are freaking out about a term in the sale that say is allows IMVU the right to redistribute uploads to fur affinity, but from my understanding that legally as the new owners of FA, tha'ts a right they have to have in order to let anyone other than the uploader view the art in the first place?

Some people seem to think it means they are going to start selling art from FA for their own profit, but I don't know where that is coming from so..


The only real thing ive seen people upset over so far is that this sale happened in Jan and were only hearing about it now in March.

Every time a creative content display site updates its terms, somebody notices that wording, misinterprets it, and FREAKS THE FUCK OUT. I've seen it happen countless times on various sites. Latest iteration I noticed was Tumblr, and as always, same damn wording section, same misunderstanding.

never heard of IMVU untill now. i guess i am not a good furry...

anyways. i never had issue with how the site was run.

Same, here. I've been in the fandom for 12 years, and only heard about IMVU in very casual passing from a limited bank of SL participants. Based upon their reports, I never felt any sort of desire to join IMVU.

Why should you leave? Because you want to.
Why should you stay? Because you want to.

There are a ton of reasons behind people leaving, but most of them are important to the individual. People don't like Dragoneer, don't like IMVU, don't like the FA staff.
Most people who are staying are staying because this is where everyone else is. This is where the commissions are, this is where the social aspect is. You don't get as much attention on other sites and if that is important to someone or their business [like if they make a living off their art], a lot are choosing to stay here for those reasons.

Ultimately, it's up to what is important to you and what you want to do! So if you want to stay, you should stay.

There's a lot that's very unclear about this deal. What is clear is that it was made and sealed behind our backs, and we didn't find out that another company has our private information – up to and including our browsing habits if they so desire – until over a month after the fact. I couldn't say how IMVU really treats their members (witting or otherwise), but the general opinion seems to be that they're a trash knock-off of Second Life and that they have no commitment to privacy. Certainly essence of their business model appears to be profit from the real money sale of customer-created content, and I'm not sure that the real money ever flows back to the creators as it does in SL (I could be mistaken).

I think that the main issue here is the secrecy of the deal and the gross TOS/legal violation which it represents. It doesn't bode well.

You're making some heavy accusations here. I challenge you to back them up with evidence.

If you can, then you can directly disprove Dragoneer's statements and demonstrate that he's lying to us all for personal gain. If you do this, then I will also apologise for the following statement:

If you can't back up your statements with evidence, then you yourself are the problem of hysterical fear-mongering bullshit and you need to shut your mouth until you can open it without shit falling out of it.

Specifically:

What is clear is that it was made and sealed behind our backs...

We users are not the owners of the site and we do not have a God-given right to be privy to all plans about its ownership.

... we didn't find out that another company has our private information – up to and including our browsing habits if they so desire ...[/]

Dragoneer has formally stated that IMVU does not and will not have access to the private information of FurAffinity users. Do you have evidence that he's lying through his teeth?

[I]... their business model appears to be profit from the real money sale of customer-created content, ...

Again, Dragoneer has explicitly stated that this will not occur with FA content. Do you have evidence that contradicts him?

... the main issue here is the secrecy of the deal...

Again, you didn't have a magical right to be told about it in advance. If Dragoneer is telling the truth then he has made a good-faith effort to protect the rights and privacy of FA users. If you believe you have a right to more than that, please provide a solid justification.

... and the gross TOS/legal violation which it represents...

Which law or TOS clause has been violated?

What's your problem? Speculation is not fear-mongering, and while I don't agree with all of Rust's points, they're hardly hysterical.

In case you don't recall, a few months ago Dragoneer made a huge deal about how there was going to be transparency in management of the site from that point forward. So while you're absolutely right that we don't have a "right to be privy to all plans about its ownership", the fact that right after he made that promise this is dropped in our laps with no warning really puts his credibility into question. I don't think there's necessarily anything nefarious about it; Dragoneer might have been concerned that this would be an unpopular move, or IMVU may have required an NDA during negotiations. But that doesn't change the fact that right now, it's entirely reasonable to be asking ourselves how much we can trust him. You say, "If Dragoneer is telling the truth," and there's the problem. While there's no specific evidence to believe he's lying here, a lot of people here are past the point where they're willing to take him at his word anymore, and as I just outlined the circumstances of the announcement aren't helping matters.

As far as I'm concerned though, everything I just wrote can still safely be described as business-as-usual on FA. It was about time for our bi-annual drama anyway. The actual threat, if there is one, most likely comes from our new corporate masters. The site belongs to IMVU, and Dragoneer is now an employee of IMVU. In other words, he's the only actual thing preventing IMVU screwing us over if they want to. Sure, nothing's likely to happen now, but in six months? A year? They start making "suggestions", and he either agrees or they find a pretense to fire him. I'm not betting on the scenario playing out like that, but I'm not completely discounting the possibility either. And if that's what happens, does site ownership revert to Dragoneer? Or does it remain with IMVU? What happens if and when Dragoneer dies or otherwise decides to step down? Would they hire someone else from within the community, or would site management devolve to an existing employee that may or may not have any prior experience with the fandom?

How does this venture become profitable for IMVU? Advertising revenue doesn't seem like enough to justify shoring up this place. So what's their angle?

These are important questions we should be asking. It may not be the end of the site as we know it, but that's not the same as saying that there's no reason for concern.

Retraction and apology to FeO2 posted below.

You're setting up a straw man with a tu quoque chaser, and frankly I don't feel the need to read much beyond two rapid-fire fallacious jabs like that; I get the picture.

From the self-restraint and willingness to de-escalate that you've shown in your comment, I suspect you will never read this comment, but instead delete it unread from your notifications page. That's to your credit.

Nonetheless, I was wrong to swear at you and personally insult you, and I wish to apologise.

I know full well that invective on the Internet never achieves anything. All it does is to flag the speaker as being part of the vast midden of strident anonymous fools who love to turn the Internet into an echo-chamber of their unquestioningly regurgitated opinions. As you say, you got the picture; because I had placed myself squarely in the frame.

While I still have very strong issues with your original statement, I've forfeited my place in the conversation. I leave my comment in place to let the record reflect that I was an arsehole, but I would ask people to consider it annulled.

Nonetheless, I must have increased your stress levels and decreased your faith in humanity. For both I am sorry.

Respectfully, I'm not sure you're in an ideal position to talk about escalation, but I appreciate the less overtly hostile tone here.

In defence of my original post, the facts are stated as facts and the opinions are stated as opinions. I don't have a lot of faith in humanity to destroy, and that's a big part of my concern regarding the IMVU deal, but if I bring conjecture into the argument I'll let you know.

The secrecy and lack of transparency in this deal are major and verifiable concerns; if you buy from a guy in a car with black tinted windows parked in an out-of-the-way lot at 2:30AM, you're probably not buying Advil. That part was conjecture. My research on IMVU has turned up an interesting disparity between anecdotal opinion and squeaky clean related Wikipedia articles on IMVU, their CEO, and the "lean startup" business model he supposedly invented (which, incidentally, read like a heavily padded-out BS resume). It would be conjecture if I were to draw from this that they have an agent running a suppressive PR campaign. It is fact, however, that they've been accused of something like this in the related Talk pages. It's a fact that it's pretty weird to buy out an entire heavily-populated yet unprofitable social website just to advertise on it when they already have ad space available at a price that many unaffiliated artists can afford. Anything I draw from that is complete speculation, but it's still goddamned weird, and I don't trust it. Public opinion of IMVU appears very low, though I may be seeing that through a filter of suspicion. Anecdotally, IMVU is a sub-par rehash of Second Life with a punitive a la carte privilege system and a blase attitude regarding client privacy. I couldn't say whether that's fact, conjecture, or outright bullshit, but it does seem to be the loudest opinion.

I've spent much of the past half decade fighting against scumbag corporations (fact, and fact), and I get the same sense of sanitized arrogance from IMVU. Take from that what you will.

I'm not sure you're in an ideal position to talk about escalation

Please note that I said de-escalation: calming things down after some rude bugger (me) stirs them up.

I acknowledge your points.

After the last few outages, I found it was handy to have an off-site gallery so I can continue to post work and keep in contact with commissioners and friends I only know through the galleries.

A user base will always make a fuss out of something big. This situation is no different in any other community. People are naturally inclined to reject changed, that in itself isn't something bad. What makes it bad is the lack of communication between the chain of command, and the community. Without this communication, there is no certainty, and without certainty the result becomes panic.

Just know that if you leave . . . Don't look back

I'll be running the other way.

Copy pasting my journal:

'Neer sold FA two months ago. What we got was a much better note system and ability to edit comments, what's next - FOLDERS?
All of our IP should be fine, it's just ad revenue I believe.
The site might actually be fast due to the acquisition.
It might go downhill from here, but I'm not going anywhere until I see it's going to hell.
The panic and people leaving is just more un-needed drama being constructed out of nothing by people who thrive on drama.

its your choice
I just dont trust IMVU as they are known to provide a bad service, that even their own userbase is WORRIED about US as IMVU may do the same thing they are subjected to (ads, things that were once free being tossed behind a paywall)
Not to mention a service that been around for 11 years...have gotten worst in those 11 years.

also being told they are doing all this for JUST ad space is also making folks weary.
In the end though: "Neer has a boss, his boss owns this site, he just manages it for them"

It is not so much that he sold the site/handed it over, it is who it got handed to.

I have seen people complain about IMVU with artists' rights to their artwork. I know at least one artist who had their art stolen and turned into a wallpaper to be sold on IMVU for money and only recognition to the artist and IMVU did nothing about it. They flat out let someone make money off of someone else's art.

To a lot of people this also is a matter of that their "Transparency" statement earlier has not been fulfilled, and that this has some under-the-table dealing going on.

I've tried IMVU for a bit and didn't liked it and their way of constantly pushing me to buy things. That said, I am gladly still staying here though as long as the site works like it used to be. }:P

I'd say it isn't at all about FA being sold to IMVU but more like: after the DDoS attack, Dragoneer wanted money from FA users for a better DDoS protect thingie. He got 18.000 dollar. Until today no one really knew what the money was used for. Then I've heard that there was another fundraising about ~20.000 dollar. And next to that, there is now a hacker in the Admin team no one knew before and Neer just told 'us' afterwards and after promising more transparency in November or so, he sold FA in January to IMVU without the knowing of the other FA co-founders/admins/whatever and he just told 'us' now, in March.


so what about the Transparency?
:/

This is the point why I'm a bit pissed off right now. And that I don't know what will be changed now.

"As far as i see, the terms that artists seem to be having trouble with are the same terms that every site ever has in order to legally be able to show/host your works on."

That line, so much...

Use DropBox? Use Youtube? Use Facebook? Google Drive? They all have the same legaleeze in order to cover their butts!

That and your line about "he finally hands the reigns over and still angry mobs!" ;)

Anyway... I dunno... People will be people. Personally I'm for staying and seeing how things turn out. I'm not saying it's good or bad yet until I see it's good or bad. I know I tried the other things that people are going to use, and I didn't like them as much to be honest.

People are really confused by the whole "OMG why are you not telling us things, why did it take so long to tell us anything!?" This is typical business. That and for fucks sakes people, you're not paying a dime to be here and use this place. =P I think dragoneer is doing what he thinks is best to get it done right and handled in our best interest. But ya... people will be people.

*Sets up a store for Torches and Pitch Forks. By 2 torches, get pitch fork for free!*

who or what is IMVU, and if so, how many?

so FA got sold. too bad it happened, but it's Dragoneers thing, not ours. and it might explain the sudden changes... oh it IS possible, after all? very well.

LIke Deskai above, I won't jump off until this site really goes to hell. at least here the community is alive...

From what has been answered so far, FA will still be it's own entity. IMVU knows there is a userbase, so there's no point in tampering. They just want their ads to be shown in an established "furry" community. Users who have adblock won't see much of a difference, besides an abscense of a few other users who decided to leave.

If one has a severe distaste for IMVU ads, then he or she should leave.

I think the change will be great. Here is a journal explaining in more detail why I believe that to be the case.
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/6592524/

^ yes i agree with the bat more or less :p

Business as usual I say <3
my view on it
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/6591647/

Oh? I didn't know till now that FA is sold. Seems like I live behind the moon. (But yes, it's nice behind the moon.)

Frankly, I'm a bit lost in those business things.
Some said sellers could sell our stuff without asking us: I really don't know how it'd be possible.
But my reply is: you want my furry stuff: go on, distribute it for free. As long as I own drawings AND characters of course.

Anyway, I'm also on Weasyl.

Consider the legacy pages, also, FA puts that little infinity symbol when someone passes on, other sites don't do that, someone should find a way to cache those entire pages, otherwise you'll loose them. Take James Hardiman, for example, all his comments, journals, q&A's, all still there, can't replace that now. But that's something FA has that is priceless.

It really has nothing to do w/ the site or it's politics, what I'm saying is FA is now in a posistion where it's archived a great deal of important furry content, years worth, so if the site falls apart, we collectively loose all that, maybe that doesn't bother everyone, but to me it's sad.
I know there's a lot of hatred directed at the site, and alot of this and that, right now, but think about what would happen if enough people left that the site went offline say, mid next month, or a least by summer, can you imagine all the ramifications of that?

I'm staying, and I'm pretty gutted that people are leaving because I am not active on any other art sites. I think all this drama is just so over the top, as usual :/

I've been on FA almost as long as you so I've seen all the migrations too lol (I'm so old I remember going to FAP until it vanished)
I'm not really worried, I don't have much personal business on here (and it's all been hacked already so whatever) and the TOS, well companies don't bother to write it so they can steal your art, they just fucking do it, I've seen enough complaints around about such things. After all they can afford lawyers and starving artists can't ;p

It just seems like another giant bag of Paranoia that the community bought into.
And like you said, Neer did what everyone tells him to do, and they still wanna nitpick, and are now making up stuff that hasn't happened, and probably wont happen.

And if it does...can we at least wait until then?
At least at that point everyone would have a concrete reason to leave.

You should leave because the site itself pretty much sucks, but that's nothing new about IMVU. If you and I stay, should be because of the community. IMVU is not gonna change much for the worse.

So far, nothing's changed. Stick around.

And if you do leave, for god's sake don't delete your art. D:

I'm staying. It's either going to get better, or they'll kill the site. So leaving now won't do anything.

The deal was done as a way to generate drama, as drama is to furries what food, water and oxygen are to normal life forms.

I'm coming from a different perspective.


IMVU bought FurAffinity. Why? It doesn't generate money. It's not profitable in its current model.

There is no return on investment unless they change FA. A lot.

On top of that, I see people complain all the time about how Neer runs things, that he should give it up to someone else, etc. And when he finally does, now people arn't happy with that either.
Just saying people wernt expecting a buyout, the majority wanted Dragoneer replaced by someone within the community, not an outside corporation that like the coder scandal last year is surrounded by well known bad publicity

The panic mainly came from a quote posted in comments on the original announcement that made clear that IMVU with this deal was given the right to resale the artwork created here from screenshots and artist copyright with presence here are null& void but that quote was later found to be false, a joke that was let lose accidentally. thru as noted before imvu is surrounded by a lot of bad publicity that doesn't really come from nowwhere so the worry that some people may have isnt that unfounded. The other issue as mentioned by others above is transparency, something dragoneer promised at the beginning of this year and then breaking that immediately by making this sale in the same month without informing the community, then again i guess that could be for the better good because i do have a feeling dragoneer would have gotten death threats by someone, if he did hold to the transparency.

I doubt that you'll see my comment but here it is anyways.

A lot of the worry is the fact that current administration of FA hasn't been truthful or transparent with running this site. So with that and IMVU being a company with dubious track record there is a high amount of worry that there are ulterior motives not being disclosed for the long term.

I think the best thing to do right now is to make sure your gallery is mirrored onto another location like Weasyl just in case everything goes to hell with FA, that way you don't have to scramble to get back up and running again.

Personally for me I haven't uploaded anything to FA in years, it's just all the people and artists here that won't move from FA to better sites that keeps me semi-active here. :/

I see no reason to leave until and unless the site starts to suffer. On the other hand, I think there's a good chance that the site will improve.

The main problem with FA has always been that it's not run professionally. Dragoneer and the various admins and coders are volunteers, working on the site alongside with their day job and other hobbies. Now, with funding from IMVU and a level of accountability, I expect there will be changes.

Fender is a commercial sell-out, end of story

personally I'm just shifting my focus to another site. still gonna post stuff here but making weasyl my main gallery.

lots of personal reasons behind that which don't apply to everyone so I really couldn't speak for either side.

http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/6596796/ that sums it up i think.

Cause IM asking? :D