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The thin-line of Critique and Critization.
10 years ago
- "Critique" has become more of a scourge of the furry artist part of the fandom than a constructive benefit to artists.
5 - 10 years ago it was fine and actually may have been beneficial to new beginner 2D artists to have what used to be called "constructive critique" to help them with pointers and tips on their art works, but there is a real thin line where this can become more of an insult, demerit slander to an established artist with an established style they do. In the 2D art world critique is sort of more applicable in "some" cases only, as in 2D art there are no limitations, restrictions, or rules when it comes to anatomy and design. But even then, critique is nothing more than an "opinion" of one person who "thinks and believes" an artist's particular art piece should be done to "their" likings, not in the way the artist has rendered it. Basically, Critique is a way for someone to press their opinion on parts of an art piece "they" do not like of feel should be done to "their" satisfaction or liking. and sadly many criticizers are younger, less experienced artists who really do not understand the fundamentals of how Art should be viewed, seen and even done by each artists "unique" styles.
also its noted that the following & rationale of certain common criticizers & their habits tend to post unwarranted critique because it makes themselves feel better, and more important to be able to press their thoughts and opinions on artists on an art piece to try to push forward that a pieces should be done or changed to "their" likings and feeling, not the person who commissioned the art because the commissioner "liked" the way that particular artist does their style. ( even if they are a lesser matured artist or even incapable of doing it themselves.
In the case when it comes to fursuits and costumes, it can be more of an insult or derogatory remark towards the builder (or builders company) on a customer's product that is built and designed to the CUSTOMERS wants, needs, & design requests, not to the criticizer's wants and preferences.
One example of the faults here is, say a criticizer says that the neck is to short, or the head is to big, or the arms or legs are to long or short on a fursuit to be "anatomically "correct" to a cartoon character or drawing. Now for a fursuit to be worn by a human being, its Impossible to make the suit match certain cartoon, CGI, or animated characters because the human anatomy proportions do not allow it (not in this reality anyway) People can not shrink their heads, or shorten their arms or lengthen their necks, or bend their skeletal structure in the ways many animals do, or the ways that there are no limitations to a fictional character.
Point its, even with artworks, but especially fursuits, the piece is being built, designed, shaped, & constructed to what the CUSTOMER or COMMISSIONER wants and requests, NOT what some viewer thinks or wants, (which is basically what critique has become to be lately.) From what i have read and seen in the past years of those self-proclaimed critiquers posting un-warranted critique to many artists works, 90% always resulted in drama or heated discussions between them or in threads of some sorts.
I do not, and never did support public critique for so many reasons, Never did and never will. I feel to post public constructive (in reality 90% is negative) critique without asking the artist first can even be considered ignorant, bigoted, derogatory, and even downright insulting sometimes to many artists, especially to professional artists & fursuit builders who have established a "style" and design that works and the majority of public prefers already.
Critique is something that has become very unwelcome in the fandom over the years especially with fursuit builders who work on it as a job. While its passable and ok to "some" when it comes to 2D art or amateur builders who build their personal fursuit, for fursuit builders who builds costumes fro customers based on designs and preferences that the "customer" wants and requests, it comes off as more of an ignorant & even arrogant insult and an attack in some cases.
In this day & age to post critique publicly without asking the artist/builder first can be seen as somewhat rude, ignorant, insulting, and even in extreme cases slander against a business. While many younger "self-proclaimed criticizers" may not understand, and never can understand the views that many in the field see it as that, its the way it is seen by many. There is really no such thing a "constructive positive critique, its always negative in some manner against an artist or builder no matter how the Criticizer try to claim it to be.
( I will monitor this topic and remove/block those who reply here in any direct negative fashion. These are my opinions and thoughts on the whole Critique things that is shared in the same view as many other professional builders do with it and feel about it. If anyone feels otherwise, then that is your opinion and yours alone. Please Keep it to yourself if you don't understand my view on this subject. - FS6
5 - 10 years ago it was fine and actually may have been beneficial to new beginner 2D artists to have what used to be called "constructive critique" to help them with pointers and tips on their art works, but there is a real thin line where this can become more of an insult, demerit slander to an established artist with an established style they do. In the 2D art world critique is sort of more applicable in "some" cases only, as in 2D art there are no limitations, restrictions, or rules when it comes to anatomy and design. But even then, critique is nothing more than an "opinion" of one person who "thinks and believes" an artist's particular art piece should be done to "their" likings, not in the way the artist has rendered it. Basically, Critique is a way for someone to press their opinion on parts of an art piece "they" do not like of feel should be done to "their" satisfaction or liking. and sadly many criticizers are younger, less experienced artists who really do not understand the fundamentals of how Art should be viewed, seen and even done by each artists "unique" styles.
also its noted that the following & rationale of certain common criticizers & their habits tend to post unwarranted critique because it makes themselves feel better, and more important to be able to press their thoughts and opinions on artists on an art piece to try to push forward that a pieces should be done or changed to "their" likings and feeling, not the person who commissioned the art because the commissioner "liked" the way that particular artist does their style. ( even if they are a lesser matured artist or even incapable of doing it themselves.
In the case when it comes to fursuits and costumes, it can be more of an insult or derogatory remark towards the builder (or builders company) on a customer's product that is built and designed to the CUSTOMERS wants, needs, & design requests, not to the criticizer's wants and preferences.
One example of the faults here is, say a criticizer says that the neck is to short, or the head is to big, or the arms or legs are to long or short on a fursuit to be "anatomically "correct" to a cartoon character or drawing. Now for a fursuit to be worn by a human being, its Impossible to make the suit match certain cartoon, CGI, or animated characters because the human anatomy proportions do not allow it (not in this reality anyway) People can not shrink their heads, or shorten their arms or lengthen their necks, or bend their skeletal structure in the ways many animals do, or the ways that there are no limitations to a fictional character.
Point its, even with artworks, but especially fursuits, the piece is being built, designed, shaped, & constructed to what the CUSTOMER or COMMISSIONER wants and requests, NOT what some viewer thinks or wants, (which is basically what critique has become to be lately.) From what i have read and seen in the past years of those self-proclaimed critiquers posting un-warranted critique to many artists works, 90% always resulted in drama or heated discussions between them or in threads of some sorts.
I do not, and never did support public critique for so many reasons, Never did and never will. I feel to post public constructive (in reality 90% is negative) critique without asking the artist first can even be considered ignorant, bigoted, derogatory, and even downright insulting sometimes to many artists, especially to professional artists & fursuit builders who have established a "style" and design that works and the majority of public prefers already.
Critique is something that has become very unwelcome in the fandom over the years especially with fursuit builders who work on it as a job. While its passable and ok to "some" when it comes to 2D art or amateur builders who build their personal fursuit, for fursuit builders who builds costumes fro customers based on designs and preferences that the "customer" wants and requests, it comes off as more of an ignorant & even arrogant insult and an attack in some cases.
In this day & age to post critique publicly without asking the artist/builder first can be seen as somewhat rude, ignorant, insulting, and even in extreme cases slander against a business. While many younger "self-proclaimed criticizers" may not understand, and never can understand the views that many in the field see it as that, its the way it is seen by many. There is really no such thing a "constructive positive critique, its always negative in some manner against an artist or builder no matter how the Criticizer try to claim it to be.
( I will monitor this topic and remove/block those who reply here in any direct negative fashion. These are my opinions and thoughts on the whole Critique things that is shared in the same view as many other professional builders do with it and feel about it. If anyone feels otherwise, then that is your opinion and yours alone. Please Keep it to yourself if you don't understand my view on this subject. - FS6
But damn me not knowing what goes on in Fur Suit making..........Que sçay-je?(What do I know?)
Seriously, The best I can say at looking a fursuit, or at specific parts I only have a general judgment of the product, of a "That looks good/cool/poopy"(Not usually aloud- only in my brain). When I encounter with something that I don't really know(especially meeting in RL), I ask "What's your story?" with the creator/artist with their art, and then probably...yknow ask how much time did you do with this?
Off the top of my head I would ask What are the materials, limitations in regarding in body, limitations regarding in head part(do you need the EXACT dimensions of someone's head??).
But my processes of this comment is lead by the fact that I've never went to any Furcon, and lately listening to a person talking about some of her cosplay experiences. And maybe ponder over. But, critiquing can be a total poop fest of that one's opinion, because as throwing words is much easier than getting off yer butt to work on something for hours upon end. As far as I see it, better to take the advice from those who work in such a field, and really filter out the buttholes of the world.
(Especially that More Popularity=More people knowing you=More Asshats coming your way is in place.)
The same principle goes for custom fursuits.
See, if were to talk to any fursuit makers it would be asking questions as I said before Respect is the thing, and I would rather have people having a good time at the Con, or in commenting here to be respectful, especially what this journal asks.
The average of the furry world do not have the resources or unlimited funding to have the "perfect" suit built to specifications of a criticizer. Sure if you have 50,000 dollars a closer to perfect fursuit can be built, but it will still not be perfect as its not a perfect world we live in though as some want it to be.
Say a well-respected member of the fursuit making community, a professional who has been working as long (if not longer) than you on costumes, came to you through private note with an offer to share their professional opinion on a certain aspect of your work. Would you at least listen their advice, to see if it may work for you? Or would you still brush them off as being "narrow minded"?
No one that is giving critique is saying that what you do HAS to be done their way. No one is holding a gun to your head forcing you to do it a certain way; that is all between to you and your commissioner. It's just an outsider's perspective. It should not be something to get so defensive about; they're certainly not taking any of your business by doing so.
But the point I'm trying to make is, criticism should be seen as a good thing, as that means they care about you and the work that you do. Saying "I think it should look THIS way because I LIKE it this way" is not critique; as you said, that's their own personal opinion and is completely moot. However, saying that "perhaps you could have better luck getting the jaw to move if you tried this method" is, because they're offering you an alternative that may work better.
However, since you obviously have your construction methods on point, I can see that there would be no need for critique on your end. But someone who may have seen or created some new method that they think you should try, who is some unknown or mediocre suit builder, would immediately get brushed off by you, since you think your methods are already fine as they are, even if there's that .00001% chance that it may actually work better for you. But if your more experienced suitmaker tells you about it, you'd take it into consideration with no problem. And that's what upsets me, that you would not even listen to advice (even if you don't plan to use it) simply because it's from someone who doesn't have the experience you do, so you automatically think they're trying to make themselves look high-and-mighty, and make you look a fool, which is absolutely not the case (more often than not).
I'm not saying that everyone has your best interests at heart; only you know that. But it doesn't hurt to keep an open mind on possible alternative methods, no matter the source.
But say you've seen something that a certain maker, any maker (professional or not), does incorrectly (whatever your idea of 'incorrect' may be could also be a personal opinion, but lets say in this case, they keep using unsealed paperboard in their finished products, or keep making the fur go in the wrong direction). They keep doing this over several suits. Would it not be in their best interest to correct them on better and more durable construction methods? Or would you just let them continue on as they are until they learn for themselves, after several commissioners complain and demand their suits be corrected, or something terrible happens to their personal project?
If people ask for criticism, then give it. If they do not ask. Don't.
Do you walk up to the street and advise people that their t-shirt doesn't fit quite right or you think their children are too fat?
same thing. Its tact.
It saddens me that nowadays that any artist, from the professional to the novice, see critique as a personal attack, when it absolutely is not. They are taking a sincere interest in your work and want to see you get better, because they KNOW you have that potential. But they lash out like a five year old that got their toy taken away. I guess I am just "old school" in my train of thought. People sometimes get so spoiled with praises, that when one person dares critique them, it's like the end of the world. You work CAN get better, no matter how good you already are. It just sometimes takes an outsider's perspective to see it.
And if someone DOES try to critique you on something you already know you need to improve, all you have to tell them is that you already know, and are working toward a fix. Easy. They're happy that you know, you're happy that someone noticed and cared enough about your work to let you know, it's a win-win. Or you can just ignore them altogether.
If we're going to start using metaphor, it doesn't take a chef to know when food tastes bad.
Again.
If its asked for, provide it.
If its not asked for, do not.
As a personal opinion I believe artists can be overly sensitive to something such as critique and criticism. When something is displayed and put out there for viewing in such a public manner one can and should expect both to occur. One of the simple truths in the arts is "there's always someone better" and a particular piece may be seen as pure and utter crap to one person but a treasure to another and in a public forum people are not always going to be inclined to keep their opinions to themselves as by displaying such works publicly in fact invites it. Thus the need for a thicker skin to words one may not be inclined to read or hear. This is why for those sensitive to critique sites like this could do with a feature like on YouTube where comments can just be outright disabled. Of course that won't stop it entirely but it would reduce the chances of such unwanted criticism reaching your eyes; particularly for those people inclined to believe your work should cater to their own personal interests and not the client who hired you.
Hmmm, your points are quite good and yeah, there are differences between critique, opinion and insult, but lets be honest, people on the internet never going to suddenly stop doing their thing now.
As Lex pointed out it is to the artist to either grow a thick skin or disable comments (tho, the last one isnt possible here i believe, but the alternative would be leaving FA for a site that does have this feature).
Not to say that there isn't a time and place for critique, and a proper way to go about it, but the fact that 90% of artists selling to the public post a "do not critique, ever" disclaimer is pretty sad. Even when posting to critique groups, most artists are only looking for asspats and will brush off any critique with a "that's just my style!" or "the customer liked it, that's all that matters!" (To be clear, I am referring to these comments being ridiculous only when in a critique group. You should really never publicly critique a commission, you wouldn't want to hurt the customer's feelings.)
- also my topic is directed somewhat towards suit builders and professional artists, not new upcoming artists who are actually looking for critic to help improve their work. People who do un-warranted & un-asked criticizing today are more & more unaccepted by the general fandom. You may dissagree and are entitled to your opinion, but don't out yourselves in that same festering boat these "Critics" are slowly sinknig into.
From the way I read it, it sounds like lex and fol, to different degrees, are saying more so its the internet and people are going to be stupid about things. To let all the trolls out there ruin your days would be a waste of a perfectly good year.
But thats how it came off to me. *shrugs*
Also when you say "short neck" are you referring to the issue of suit makers not placing enough fur around the neck to tuck into shirts properly or shows skin when being worn, or the proportions of the neck to the body? The former I have found to be a reoccuring issue on many suits from professional and non-prof, not that it would ever come up on FA, but when doing mods to suits or helping friends out at cons, this is usually #2 on the list right under busted seams.
I'm thinking your argument is less about critique and more about the public pissing contest that often times waves the flag of "critique" as an excuse. There's plenty of critique an established artist could take and consider (like sameface across different species, structural issues, etc), to assume an artist is infallible just because they are professional would be childish, you know? The problem I think people don't see is that not only are they more likely attacking the artist's style more than any actual flaws, but most professionals are posting customer commissions and that those attacks can upset the customer and ruin business for the maker.
I don't think artists should always refuse actual, proper critique but as I said earlier, there is a time and place. And that definitely involves asking permission and being discreet about it with people who have a public image to uphold. I'm pretty sure we're agreeing, but addressing slightly separate situations.
as for you and your artwork I think every piece that you and your crew made is awesome piece of art, and I also think that you and whatever crew you got are awesome artizans, to the point that I would prefer to employ you to build suit for me in the near future.
now I'm not an artist myself some times I wish I was but I do not have the hands for it so that means I have to depend on somebody else to create art for me or character for me and sometimes it feels make a huge gamble but I put faith in the artist and that they would do what they can to make it a masterpiece even if the details are sketchy.
So I do my best to support artists and artizans
Some people immediately feel inferior when they see the creative praiseworthy work of others because that work makes them aware that they are not creative.
Feeling so, they have to attack the work (or it’s creator) generally launching some nit-picking criticism in order to feel better about themselves. Same thing happens when there is a popular movie or TV show or celebrity that a lot of people like -- these nay-sayers HAVE to “defend“ their fragile egos by verbally “tearing down“ the movie or TV show or celebrity.
These are the same people who spray-paint graffiti on freshly painted walls, kick over little kid’s sand castles, ridicule fellow student’s science projects, or find fault with fur suits and think that they are being just as “creative“.
The rule of thumb for any criticism is to “PRAISE IN PUBLIC AND PUNISH IN PRIVATE”. If a person feels that there is some critique they might constructively offer on another‘s work, then do it in private in a P-note, not in public.
That's just my oppinion though.
Best to just shoot off a note to a person saying "Hey I noticed an issue with your piece, mind if I give my two cents?"
It is a delicate process indeed to balance out respect and kindness with honest as some artists can be more sensitive than others. And it is true an inexperienced artist in the subject they are critiqueing should never even attempt to if they don't know what they are talking about.
Art and beauty are simply subjective so it is in fact hard to say what one should do with the art THEY created. ;)
Very good points here and very well said.