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A Q&A with IMVU CEO Brett Durrett
10 years ago
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Journal Start
You asked and IMVU’s CEO has answered. We've collected and took your questions to Brett Durrett - IMVU’s CEO. He has not only reviewed these representative questions but also the discussions that have been taking place on FA regarding the acquisition. We've taken some questions from responses to our recent journals.
Here are his responses... in his own words.
Why the Acquisition?
IMVU is a 10 year old community built entirely by customers for customers; it is sustained by creative individuals finding like-minded people online, who accept and encourage their creative, expressive sides, anonymously. At a high level, while the art form is entirely different, the guiding principles - inclusiveness, celebrating creativity, embracing diversity - are the overarching umbrella that unites the two distinct communities.
IMVU is not today, and will not be tomorrow, an exclusively furry community. Furries are one of the many, many, many diverse audiences that meet on IMVU, to socialize and find others that understand them and share their same interests.
During discussions with Dragoneer we found FA had huge potential, a passionate community, and a dedicated leader, but was struggling with financial and resource challenges. Dragoneer has the vision but was not able to devote his full attention to the site. We realized that working together we could help FA get the support it needs to make improvements. When talking to Dragoneer about the possibility of an acquisition, every one of his requirements were based on wanting to make sure the end result was right for the FA community… this is when I was convinced that FA will have an amazing future.
IMVU is making a commitment of money and resources to FA that far exceeds what FA was able to achieve on its own. I believe FA will grow to being a self-supporting community if it has the focus, people and resources to make customer experience improvements. With IMVU’s support and keeping a hands-off approach to how FA is operated, I’m looking forward to a rewarding outcome for everybody, most of all FA’s community.
One of the most asked questions: "Why IMVU?" which ties well into a question asked by user Sketh, "How is IMVU even remotely relevant to FA? An online 3d avatar chat system acquiring a furry art gallery...?"
FA is a community of creative people sharing their artwork. IMVU is also a community of creative people sharing their artwork - 3D models and fashion creations. While FA is dedicated to the furry audience, IMVU welcomes and celebrates many, many diverse audiences, furries being a significant one of them.
"And what does it meant for us furries?" asked by DirtyPaws
Other than FA having a lot more resources 100% dedicated to improving the site, it shouldn’t mean anything different than before the acquisition. You will see advertising, but FA is being run by Dragoneer, not by IMVU. Oh, and FA won’t need community donations to survive, so no more pledge drives. :)
"What does IMVU get out of this?" asked by Michichael
We think that by supporting FA they can build a better experience and bigger community and make something more valuable for IMVU, FA and the furry community in general.
"What will IMVU do with FA?" asked by Roycefox
That’s a better question for Dragoneer. We really believe that FA knows what is best for the FA community, so we have committed support both financially and through other resources. We want to let it run independently and see it thrive.
A LOT of users seemed concerned that the ads coming will be trying to auto-install spyware/malware
The ads being delivered come from a top advertising provider for websites (Google ad network) and are screened thoroughly as part of their review process to ensure no spyware/malware is included.
Among the other general questions:
"Does IMVU plan on changing FA?"
IMVU plans on supporting FA changing the site to make improvements, but FA is run independently, so changes will be determined by Dragoneer and team.
"What is IMVU doing to help furry artists who have had their work stolen?" and "What's the best process to protect my art?"
Stolen content is bad for everybody in the community, from the author that sees their hard work being exploited to the community that misses the opportunity to connect with the author, explore their other works and even make a new friendship. IMVU wants to ensure that people only share content they have the rights to share. If stolen content is posted on the FA site, the process is likely to stay the same. If stolen art is posted on IMVU, the legal owner of the art can file a DMCA Takedown notice.
Here are his responses... in his own words.
Why the Acquisition?
IMVU is a 10 year old community built entirely by customers for customers; it is sustained by creative individuals finding like-minded people online, who accept and encourage their creative, expressive sides, anonymously. At a high level, while the art form is entirely different, the guiding principles - inclusiveness, celebrating creativity, embracing diversity - are the overarching umbrella that unites the two distinct communities.
IMVU is not today, and will not be tomorrow, an exclusively furry community. Furries are one of the many, many, many diverse audiences that meet on IMVU, to socialize and find others that understand them and share their same interests.
During discussions with Dragoneer we found FA had huge potential, a passionate community, and a dedicated leader, but was struggling with financial and resource challenges. Dragoneer has the vision but was not able to devote his full attention to the site. We realized that working together we could help FA get the support it needs to make improvements. When talking to Dragoneer about the possibility of an acquisition, every one of his requirements were based on wanting to make sure the end result was right for the FA community… this is when I was convinced that FA will have an amazing future.
IMVU is making a commitment of money and resources to FA that far exceeds what FA was able to achieve on its own. I believe FA will grow to being a self-supporting community if it has the focus, people and resources to make customer experience improvements. With IMVU’s support and keeping a hands-off approach to how FA is operated, I’m looking forward to a rewarding outcome for everybody, most of all FA’s community.
One of the most asked questions: "Why IMVU?" which ties well into a question asked by user Sketh, "How is IMVU even remotely relevant to FA? An online 3d avatar chat system acquiring a furry art gallery...?"
FA is a community of creative people sharing their artwork. IMVU is also a community of creative people sharing their artwork - 3D models and fashion creations. While FA is dedicated to the furry audience, IMVU welcomes and celebrates many, many diverse audiences, furries being a significant one of them.
"And what does it meant for us furries?" asked by DirtyPaws
Other than FA having a lot more resources 100% dedicated to improving the site, it shouldn’t mean anything different than before the acquisition. You will see advertising, but FA is being run by Dragoneer, not by IMVU. Oh, and FA won’t need community donations to survive, so no more pledge drives. :)
"What does IMVU get out of this?" asked by Michichael
We think that by supporting FA they can build a better experience and bigger community and make something more valuable for IMVU, FA and the furry community in general.
"What will IMVU do with FA?" asked by Roycefox
That’s a better question for Dragoneer. We really believe that FA knows what is best for the FA community, so we have committed support both financially and through other resources. We want to let it run independently and see it thrive.
A LOT of users seemed concerned that the ads coming will be trying to auto-install spyware/malware
The ads being delivered come from a top advertising provider for websites (Google ad network) and are screened thoroughly as part of their review process to ensure no spyware/malware is included.
Among the other general questions:
"Does IMVU plan on changing FA?"
IMVU plans on supporting FA changing the site to make improvements, but FA is run independently, so changes will be determined by Dragoneer and team.
"What is IMVU doing to help furry artists who have had their work stolen?" and "What's the best process to protect my art?"
Stolen content is bad for everybody in the community, from the author that sees their hard work being exploited to the community that misses the opportunity to connect with the author, explore their other works and even make a new friendship. IMVU wants to ensure that people only share content they have the rights to share. If stolen content is posted on the FA site, the process is likely to stay the same. If stolen art is posted on IMVU, the legal owner of the art can file a DMCA Takedown notice.
#ABANDONSHIP
Although the amount of people replying is ridiculous.
Can't we all just make out own dildo threads?
Le win for great justice
http://kobitate.com/fa-exodus-helper/
You will always find me any place there are furries!
Mr. K up here needs to get a grip.. I said that I'm not leaving FA, I don't even know the dude and sure enough, he blocks me. So now he get's to be an example of how not to be a douchebag to people. That's the way it should be.
Classy.
I mean, how Kanye West would it be to go.
"Hey, that's an interesting post an I'mma let you finish, but I just released my first furry novel Light: A Tale of the Magical Creatures of Zudukii to softcover and Kindle"
It'd be pretty asinine. People need to be more topical!
He was offering a tool that many people would find useful that helps look up artists and other individuals you watch on FA on other sites like SF, IB, DA, and Weasyl. Better than the Ottermatic. I'm also pretty certain he wont be getting any profits for this service.
I get where you're coming from though but seriously, this wont benefit the creator of the tool and doesn't harm FA either. The harm has already been done and those that have decided to leave FA have already made up their minds on it. Many of the people that would use this tool wont even leave FA entirely but may find it useful to find the artists they love in other sites; myself included.
Never!
Ever!
Nuh-unh.
Nopers.
hides in foil fortress
My only problem is.... I watch 1,356 accounts. >.<
I hate that this is happening : /
I only watch those that I enjoy and before I add them, I look through all of the user's gallery and scraps. The high number of people I follow is a result of being a member for 7 years.... You'd have been able to tell this yourself if you had looked at my front page. :P
#PWND
.
Also, really classy silencing people now.
Such a tool might just help people track down other people elsewhere in the web, it doesn't necessarily mean people leave in masses. But when it's said "We really believe that FA knows what is best for the FA community" that probably means "locking in the people and erecting a wall around FA, nobody has to have contacts to furry communities or galleries outside, nobody is allowed to leave, nobody is allowed to talk about contacting the outside world or leaving".
Maybe they'll remove it now this has been mentioned.
Funny thing is, the "You can check-out any time you like, But you can never leave!" part is kinda true. You can close your account, but you can't delete it.
awesome work
https://www.furaffinity.net/view/12614671/
We got torches and pitchforks too. You scorn em, we burn em.
Lang Zi says: Popcorn is for lying attorneys!
Like deer at the snap of a twig, like a flock of birds taking flight at a gunshot, furries will sprint in a mad stampede towards their nearest Wal-mart, screaming, crying, trampling each other, jockeying for the canned beans and Mountain Dew. The panicked clamor will be heard for miles and non-furrykind will cower in fear, daring not even to peek outside their windows.
A great dustcloud will arise from the fervor of panic, swallowing up the entire store and all inside, billowing far and wide. Limbs, screaming, teeth bared, shelves toppling, shrill battle cries, fists, blood- it will be a fight to the death for most and for those few who live, a terrible nightmare. It will haunt them till the end of their days, burned on the inside of their eyelids such that any time they close their eyes, they see the tragic drama playing out before them. On that day, they will come to understand the true meaning of the words cannot be unseen.
After a time, the noise will settle and the cloud will wane. Dim god rays of amber sunlight aglitter with dust will shine weakly down upon a scene of carnage, of bodies strewn and Mountain Dew spilled. Bones and broken refuse will jut up from the remaining carpet of dust swirling around the battlefield. Blood will flow amidst the bodies, from shelves, down walls, and pool in puddles like a perverse garden oasis. Small licks of flame and shadow will dance to the only sounds daring make themselves known across the deathscape- a haunting dirge of silence.
The few who survive will stagger, shock in their eyes, jaws agape, desperately clutching their Mountain Dew and canned beans for dear life, towards the checkout line. They will be only passingly aware of their own actions, their higher thought derailed by the horrors of that which cannot be unseen. Forever, upon closing their eyes, even in the quickest flash of a blink, they will see- and in seeing relive- The Day The Furries Died.
No need to get all salty.
Quote Originally Posted by Volkodav View Post
What is Neer's bullshit in this exact instance? Neer said he would get Strype's art removed, and he got it removed.
Honestly, what is the complaint here? His feelings or friendship or w/e with Neer don't matter, what I think we should all be concerned about with here is that at least 1 art thief is gone.
The art theft is just the tip of the iceberg my friend.
The real problem will come to surface when the normal clients of Imvu (a population that largely consists of 14 year old children) and their families notice that the company is pretending to merge their community with this literal hole of pornography.
Right now they promise that they will not touch anything. But they refuse to show the contract, so we cant really trust their promises. It wouldn't be the first time that Dragoneer deceived us all.
IMVU, in order to protect themselves from what is obviously going to come, will have to insert restrictions to the adult content. Perhaps a Premium membership or just plainly banning adult art.
Dragoneer claims that IMVU bought the site for 20,000 dollars with the sole and only purpose of getting money from furries getting into Imvu and the ads. However, they could have obtained THE SAME effect by simply buying Ad space, whose cost is only 1/20 of what they paid for the site.
I don't know any company willing to loose money like that, if they are investing not only in what they paid but in a team of programmers, then it would be IRRATIONAL to think that they only expect to get in return the meager gain of Ads and furries getting into Imvu. That would not even cover the original investment!
Past "dramas" were mostly on irrelevant things such as people not liking the mod whose name begins with Z, but this time is something REALLY serious unlike past times. You claim you can just shrug it off, but I remind you that REAL people use this site to make REAL money.
How about now?
http://imgur.com/a/FTLDL
And now?
This whole situation has become highly political. People are taking "sides" without evidence and sticking to them. I think it is best if the fear-mongers leave.
Today what concerns furries is a leader that sold the site behind our backs and now, with the company, tries to make us believe that the company invested a large sum of money just to leave things like that.
Who, in this world, who gives free money?
And what evidence do I have? Simple, the ad revenue alone was never enough to keep the site floating. Now, how will the same money be enough to keep maintenance costs AND Dragoneer's wage AND the new coding AND the upgrades? LOL
It's obvious that if they don't squeeze money out of us via ANY method (premium accounts, fees, etc), they will loose a lot of money. Of course, I am assuming that Imvu's plans are not to starve, like any normal company.
Please reread my post, I never said that. You do not actually read what other people say. You read enough to know they disagree with you and then you assume the rest.
You're also vague about your claims. You don't know the business model and business plans. You make assumptions about costs, and then conclude they must somehow be stealing the art and making money off of it. Your entire argument is baseless.
Owning FA doesn't give them legal rights to the art, so acquiring FA hasn't done anything to get them such an advantage. What are your claims exactly? Can you clarify?
But again, if ads alone weren't enough to keep the site afloat, how the same money is going to keep it afloat, afford wages and generate profit? It is not going to magically grow, ya know?
I don't know what will be their bussiness plans, all I know is that in the instant they touch the user's wallet, the only ones that will suffer are the same ones who are the heart of this community: artists.
Again, what is your scholarity?
What he's saying is true to a extend.
Neer never were able to keep this site running from the ad revenue alone, and had to cash in with his own money and also ask for donations as well for things, and to upgrade stuff.
IMVU now not only have the expenses on their hands of keeping the site running, maintenance etc. But also Neers new wages as he works for them, the costs of the 20K they say to have put into new hardware, and the wages of the coders they themselves have said to put onto this, unless they were of course, already working under them to begin with, then the cost isn't new to them.
Unless they're fine with the new expenses put onto their bills for all of that from purchasing this site, and doesn't care about loosing that money, they will need to find some kind of extra revenue to gain more money, whether they do it to IMVU or FA remains to be seen if they do so. The only ways to do that are raise the costs of purchasing ad space here or make something like they have on their own site, such as the Adult Pass to see any adult content on their site, mandatory, and either a one time thing or a monthly thing.
That is very simple, basic knowledge and common sense. Anything else though can to a point be discussed unless otherwise is factually proven.
Yes you have their word they won't change anything, at least not for the worse anyway, changing nothing at all when there's a need of it would be stupid. But unless in the NDA it states that, which will make them break a legal binding contract and therefor become a big issue should Neer decide to drag them to court. Then if they so choose to because they loose more money than they'd like, and want to make a bit extra so its not such a bit budget, then they might start charging for it.
Always be suspicious about what is being said, but also be patient and see if they back up their words with actions. That goes for both you and him.
While I'm not happy about IMVU being in charge, I am hoping for the best, but I am also prepared for the worst
Yet, people like you seem to have forgotten how much disdain IMVU had for us furries, and now they are suddenly okay with us? As if.
Would also wonder if the catalog would pop up in a reverse image search possibly just not accessible.
Now, if Imvu sells each one for one dollar, they get 30K dollars out of thin air.. But you and ñi know they are not gonna sell ach one for just one dollat. Art theft is a good bussiness isn't it?
Something to also take into consideration is that putting something on IMVU's store requires agreeing to terms of service which includes having the rights to the content in question. Now, as a commissioner, I would be annoyed if a piece I've bought over my time on FA found its way onto the store, but the unfortunate truth is the I also don't hold ownership of those pictures, since, as digital goods, ownership is retained by the artist unless otherwise specified or agreed upon. Considering the ease, popularity, and widespread use of unauthorized posting of content (e621 likely contains a fair amount, you can always look at Danbooru, Gelbooru, and similar sites), what occurs on IMVU isn't too new. And, I'd wager that there's a fair amount that goes on in Second Life as well, which has a very similar policy of having a user-driven marketplace via company-controlled currency. On the one hand, this isn't all that new. A problem? Certainly, no question about it. But to expect IMVU to independently verify each and every single submission is impossible. Hell, the most popular black market for drugs in the United States is cigarettes. Y'know, perfectly legal to buy, carry, use, etc. I wouldn't have much more faith in a smaller organization tasked with managing a digital storefront which, again, is capable of handling a lot more "goods" due to use of virtual space as opposed to physical.
However... Isn't this also a benefit to an artist? DMCA takedown of the items that're wrongly on IMVU, and replace it with their own. A quick search found me a way to sell credits pretty easily. Some startup funds are required, yes, but being a turnkey operation, a popular enough artist could pick up some cash. So, there is synergy here. It's not about "IMVU isn't totally furry," and more about, "there's a sizable furry base to take advantage of," just like Second Life.
Look, at the end of it all, I can really only say this: you're entitled to your opinion. As am I. Everyone has that right. But, we don't exactly have the right to share that opinion. The first reaction is to be fearful, frightened, angry. If we received the news the day-of the acquisition, we would've been complaining about how the approach was kept secret. If we were told about the possible acquisition, we would've had this shit-storm months ago. Honestly, being told sooner would have only had this backlash sooner, and wouldn't have alleviated anything, because people seem to only like to badmouth FA while taking advantage of it. A free service. That asks for nothing from you. Not a click, not a survey, not a penny. But FA, to be honest, is always set with backlash and threats whenever the slightest change occurs. Sometimes it's rightful backlash, and I understand the reason for concern. But, at the end of the day, people still come to and flock to FA. It's probably the largest concentration of fur-fetishists on the internet. You've got artists, commissioners, watchers, suiters, wanna-be's, upstarts, old-hats, writers... everything. If your a company that has a sizable furry base and you want to take advantage of that, you don't go to Weasyl or Inkbunny. You go to FA. At the end of the day, there's synergy to be had, and for the users there's something they can take advantage of. Is it a perfect situation? No. But FA has been financially floundering at best. Donation drives are met with suspicion, upgrades are clearly needed, as is time for the staff to work and implement changes. A steady stream of funds is exactly what this site needs. And, to be honest, why are we complaining? FA is terribly outdated, and the staff can't afford to work on it full-time. It's a free site, where users have grown and thrived. They're not putting anything on FA behind a paywall, or a subscription. The site can continue to grow and thrive and maybe, maybe, we'll see some positive change, because the old way clearly wasn't cutting it.
And, no, I don't expect to change your mind, but you can't stand there and say you're acting on a pinnacle of logic. Changing your icon to an anti-IMVU image does as much as changing your Facebook photo to support equal rights: not an iota of change or action. Take a deep breath, and think about things. You're still on FA, so you're obviously not angry enough to leave. If you don't like FA, or IMVU, there's nothing you're going to do beyond bicker. The support you'll get is from like-minded individuals. The resistance you'll get is from people who don't see things the way you do. So, go ahead, throw your image links, make your unfounded claims, quote other people making speculative comments while providing as much proof as you claim 'Neer gives. Beyond continued whining, not much has come out of the anti-IMVU movement, and I imagine it's going to stick around due to paranoia and scary fake statistics more than anything else. If people wanted to say something, they'd leave FA instead of sticking around on it, giving it traffic, and continuing to make it a valuable commodity.
So, that's it. Have at me, pick apart my argument as you wish. I've stated my opinion, my viewpoint, much as you did. Perhaps I should've kept quiet, but, on the same note, so should have everyone else. Staying means support, after all, and I'm certainly not looking to leave because a company's trying to improve the site.
Your second parragraph, there are sites that lack the rules that make you loose your copyright in the instant you upload. Weasyl's the site.
Third parragraph, you are basically saying that artists should sell their stuff in IMVU before the thieves do... as silly as that sounds.
Fourth, this isn't an opinion contest where the winner gets a prize. If you have that idea then go to Tumblr or 4chan. What attains people here is the inminent danger that represents the sellout, in which a corporation made an original investent, hired people and is going to pay workers... and only expect to earn the money from ad revenue. That is illogical from any economic point of view, unless their objective is to be poor then that is totally going to work!
Fifth and final, I am here to save as many as I can from Dragoneer's greed. Furries are not to get abused.
2) Weasyl doesn't strip the submitter of its copyrights. Proof: Terms of Service.
3) I said that an artist can issue DMCA takedowns of unlawful products on the store page, and can lawfully put up their own. While the Credit-to-Cash exchange isn't all that great (thirty-ish percent from some light prodding), considering that not a whole lot of work needs to be put into it, a successful artist could, in theory, make some change on the side for little to no work. Which isn't all that silly, considering people are already doing it on IMVU and Second Life.
4) IMVU isn't expecting to earn money just from ad revenue. They're clearly hoping the merger will encourage more furries onto their program, which, in turn, will spur additional sales of credits and purchases in the market. It's an investment. It's a way to branch out to as many furries as possible. If you know another, bigger furry site to advertise to, I'd legitimately like to know so I can poke around and find new friends and business opportunities.
5) I imagine Dragoneer's been paying for this out of pocket. The site is lucky* (typo edited) to be lucky to break even. Cost of running this absolutely, 100% FREE site runs at least a grand and a half, especially considering the added security after the DDoS attacks. Please, oh please, tell me where the greed is, because I'm having a lot of trouble finding it. Honestly, from a site that demands change but refuses to donate to this (again) free site, I'm more surprised they didn't institute a paywall for Premium Membership with added features. Y'know, to drum up some cash to actually make changes to the site.
You're suspicious. I get it. Big business, and Dragoneer, perfect mix of paranoia. But there's no abuse, only suspicion. There's no danger, just fear. This isn't a zombie apocalypse, it's counting your chicks before your eggs hatch. Don't get me wrong, if things start declining I'll certainly abandon ship... but the rats aren't even fleeing the boat here. You're screaming "ICEBERG!" when, right now, there isn't anything. I mean, sure, we might hit one eventually, but right now there's nothing. We can watch, look closely, and see what happens, but beyond that the site's operating as it was in February, January, December... Considering how many ungrateful individuals complain whenever the slightest change happens, I'm mostly surprised Dragoneer didn't accept one of the offers from someone who just wanted to shut the site down, and I give him props for putting up with the populous here. At the very least, he's dedicated to the site, to what he believes it stands for.
2) And that's what I said, learn to read.
3) But artists shouldn't use their precious time selling their art in that shithole just in order to prevent the art theft that the own company SHOULD be preventing and not themselves. IMVU IS allowing something ilegal.
4) I think I missed this lesson in the business classes I went to.
- Pour your capital into a dying business to help it grow
- Expect little to nothing in return save for a smidge more publicity for your own company
- Watch your company miraculously grow as a result
5) Nobody would click in this site if it wasn't for the artists. If this site is famous is because of the artists who share their artwork, not because of the site itself, that is garbage by the way.
This isn't paranoia, this is math:
Consider this rough draft:
In the first month, IMVU will have the following expenses:
Initial investment= 20,000 dollars
Paying a group of coders, let them be four coders. A professional coder earns around 128,000 per month, so lets assume a month of work for 10,600 * 4= 42,400 dollars
Paying Dragoneer, who is an IT or he claims to be, costs around 4,166 per month
(sources of salary:http://www.payscale.com/ )
In total, IMVU is expending 66,566 dollars in the first month and not even considering hardware improvements... and IMVU wants us to believe they are going to recover that money AND make a profit with mere Ad revenue. Isn't that insulting our intelligence?
Yeah, they may say that furries are magically going to log into install the 3D chat client and buy their products.... but just look at all these comments. How many furries do really seem willing to pay their money to be into a chat with horrible nekos and no adult content at all? Everyone preffers SL since looks better and is way less expensive.
2) "Your second paragraph, there are sites that lack the rules that make you loose your copyright in the instant you upload. Weasyl's the site." Considering the severe lack of a mention of Weasyl in my post, and the vagueness of "Weasyl's the site," did make it a legitimate ambiguous meaning there. So, intercommunication.
3) A legitimate question: does SL police every single item in their store? There's a lot of stuff on sale. And, again, a LOT of sites have the same exact policy. Look at FA, people repost pictures that aren't theirs to post up. I've seen it happen before, someone uploading a picture of a character, claiming its theirs... So, yes, it's allowing something illegal, but websites, without intrusive security measures, can only operate on the assumption that an individual is telling the truth. This is literally a case where holding IMVU responsible creates a double-standard that I doubt you'd apply elsewhere.
4) I'm honestly, 100% speculating on revenue-generation here, as are you. I've had discussions with others on this, and such a concern was brought up before. But, considering the nature of FA, and IMVU's hands-off approach, they either consider this a good business move (propping up THE furry site), or are confident enough that they'll make money. Businesses do, on occasion, do things for reasons not directly related to money. Sometimes there's a good partnership to be had. They obviously agree that there's synergy. Considering Dragoneer bought the site out-of-pocket to keep it running years ago, I can only go on the assumption that there's clear intent to keep the site running regardless.
5) FA's an art site. SoFurry was the writing site. I get it: FA's popular because that's where all the artists are... But that was also, quite literally, my point. Weasyl isn't the go-to site. It's neat, yes. It's streamlined and works well and has a lot of options. It's modern. But there's not the pool of artists on the site as there is on here, to the point of watching them on both sites now is entirely redundant for me at this moment. And, yes, that's a personal example and shouldn't be applied with a broad brush, but you can't sit there and say that Weasyl is a serious contender for FA's title. It's a potential one down the line, certainly, but if FA gets an upgrade I imagine it'll incorporate a lot of the features that makes Weasyl nice. That tends to be what happens when a company starts getting competition: they emulate, absorb those features into their own being so as to make transitioning mostly, if not completely, pointless.
Also, back up your money. Really. This goes back to point 1. Beyond the $20,000, all I see is a load of bull being put on the screen there. I can point out that pay gets taken into account by things like competition, years working in the field, training. You're throwing numbers that you're not backing up. Quite frankly, I'm feeling my intelligence being insulted right now. If you have proof, show proof. I'm acting on the information given to me that can be verified, whereas, to me, you're acting on a load of assumptions and speculation. To me, this is a conspiracy theory you're pitching to me, and I'm certainly not impressed.
2) Weasyl does not include any clausule in their TOS in which they blatantly design themselves the authority to redistribute your art. That's the only point, forget the rest.
3) According to what artists have mentioned in this very journal, SL has easier, way easier ways to remove stolen art than filling a DMCA. Filling a DMCA remits you to a legal stance when they could simply do that if they cared, if they weren't a shady company, etc.
4) The difference between your speculation and mine is that mine is based in official numbers. You can use your imagination as much as you want to speculate, but I used statistic information, guess what approach is closer to the truth.
5) From the available options, Weasyl is the better to hold the community, away in a place where Dragoneer's greed can not further harm them.
I provided a link where you can see the information of costs, can't you do something as simple as that? Seriously you are not using logic at all, you just explain random vagueness and pretend you are reasoning but truth is you are not.
Numbers> rhetoric.
As simple as that. And the costs are quite possibly higher since, as I mentioned, I was not taking in count the hardware improvements they say they already bought.
If applying basic knowledge of bussiness and arythmetic is being a conspiracy theorist, then you need to learn some fundamental aspects of English language again.
Poking fun? No, just poking at. I'll poke fun a bit later on in this, though. Fundamentals of the English language? Hon, I grew up on reading and writing. Business*, Arithmetic*, and I'd recommend using commas to denote short pauses and separate clauses. (Though, on the spelling, I can't truly fault you. One is obviously a simple typo, and the other is because English is one hell of a mish-mash of a lot of languages so spelling doesn't make a whole lot of sense.) Random vagueness? We've got very little cold, hard data to go on. This is, quite literally, a battle of speculation, and I dare you to prove to me otherwise. The difference here between you and I is that I'm willing to admit we don't know, and you're happy with assuming plenty of numbers to support your cause. Numbers? Numbers lie, hon, and there are plenty of ways to get them to tell the story that you want them to. I'm not a scrub to statistics and numbers either. Rhetoric? I'm prodding at your logic here, standing here and saying "Well, I think it's a bit too early to tell if things are going to go to shit." I assume that's a moderate response, but I also suppose that's neither here nor there. I do take legitimate fault in what you say as, again, I'm hearing a lot of speculation coming from you. That and, honestly, repeated use of "Dragoneer's Greed" is making it sound like a stand-in for "Illuminati" or "Reptilian Overlords." It just seems like a cop-out to throw in to boost morale or drum up support.
So, numbers. Let's start with that, shall we? So, what occupation are you going by? "Coder" came up with a number of positions. I assume Professional Certified Coder? How many years? Location? Training/Education? Y'know, things that affect wage? Let's take into account, then, about things like mean/median wage. Also a very, very important factor, as those two imply entirely different spreads of wage. Official numbers? I'd need the information to recreate your results, or, y'know, a quick screen cap. Because we could, in theory, come up with separate results otherwise.
Honestly? $128,000 a month? Given from your numbers, I'm going to assume you meant "year," since otherwise that sounds FANTASTICALLY high. Please But, granted, $4,166 a month works out to about $26/hour, which isn't bad, but, again, that's lower level tech industry, or otherwise known as "fairly cheap." Then, he's running the site. Y'know. Managing it. Managers tend to get paid more. Also, that's roughly $66k in three months. Almost four. So, about $22k a month, assuming your numbers are legit. Keep in mind, though, that number diminishes with each month due to the $20k initial investment.
Next, let's talk about copyright. Looking through IMVU's TOS, I... don't see anything about IMVU copyrighting any third-party content. They hold copyrights for certain things, yes, but nothing about IMVU having copyright over things submitted to the store. It does, however, have that little clause where, upon submission, you are liable for your products, including, say, copyright infringement. From here, I'm left with the logical conclusion of FA's TOS. Okay, true, they have the right to distribute and reproduce content... for the purpose of moving data around. Like, say, making a backup copy? Moving servers? Is it that you're concerned that the TOS can be changed at any time for any reason? Really, website etiquette 101: if you don't like the TOS, don't agree to it. If you don't read the TOS, it's your fault.
So, SL handles taking down content better. That, in all honesty, is good to hear. But, it's quite clear from IMVU's TOS that they generally have a hands-off policy. But, plenty of image hosting sites follow the same principle. Someone posted it up, and if you're not threatening legal action then they're unlikely to take it down, and even if it comes down it'll probably crop back up. It is, unfortunately, part of the internet. That's really not an excuse, but, I mean, that's like complaining that people die in real life. It's prevalent enough that pointing it out is pointless, regardless of the fact that it really does suck when it happens to someone. Perhaps it's my non-artist status, or the fact that my stories aren't posted everywhere, but... At the same rate, again, I'd imagine that if someone can make money off my product, I can stop them and, in turn, make the money for myself instead. Business sense, man.
Speculation? Hon, be honest here, we're both speculating. The numbers you have are, quite literally, assumptions. Educated? Perhaps, but assumptions nonetheless. I'm acting on the evidence we do actually have, and not flipping out because a business suddenly took interest in FA. So, let's change pace here.
Let's say your numbers are right. So what? IMVU's still got a large user base that can float FA. What they put into FA was, again, an investment. They're in it for the long-haul, and they're not expecting an immediate response. They're aware of the risks, as is Dragoneer. Now, there's a lot of ways this could go. The two biggest are the optimistic and pessimistic outcomes: the site gets fixed and flourishes under its new capitalistic overlords, or the evil capitalists drive the people's great work into the ground and gobble it up like the pigs they are. Granted, embellishment, but the outcomes are there: everything's fine, and the site gets punted off into whatever dark abyss IMVU decides FA deserves. You, obviously, are leaning towards the latter. Personally, while I don't think FA's going to go under anytime soon, I'm more concerned about a paywall or subscription in which case, if the artists go, then so will I. I'm not going to sit here and say everything's going to turn out alright, but I'm also not assuming everything's going to bottom-up either. Dragoneer, despite his questionable choices, could've let this site die for whatever reason he wishes, or sell it to whomever he wanted. He happened to sell it to IMVU. Whether the reasons given are true or false, that's information we can count on.
So, again, where does FA go from here? I've got the answer: no clue.
It's quite literally too early to tell. Again, this is bailing out of the boat before the rats. You don't like Dragoneer. I get it, it's fine, it's cool. I mean, whatever, man, if that floats your boat, then it floats your boat. But FA, in all its ugly, barely-held-together-ness, has stuck around, and is a great, massive pool of talent and aspiring artists. And that's what Dragoneer, regardless of other motives, is trying to keep alive.
That is reality as I see it. FA is still standing today. Whether the reason for that is good or bad has yet to be seen. Maybe you'll be right, and a year or two from now this site will be closed. Or, maybe you're wrong, and we'll all forget this mess, except perhaps a lighthearted joke every now-and-then. Or maybe something in between. But, until there's actual, factual proof of anything besides the current status quo, my opinion's not going to change. And I don't expect your opinion to change either. This isn't rhetoric, this is me just being honest about the situation at hand: Dragoneer, IMVU, and our little back-and-forth. You're unhappy, I get it, and you're still here for your own reasons, and that's cool. But also consider this: wouldn't a large backlash or exodus influence IMVU to just drop FA completely? If it's too much trouble, after all, best case scenario is that we're back at square 1 (donation drives and everyone complaining about everything), and worst case scenario is that IMVU sells it to whomever to do whatever with, which is something that is a lot more scary in concept, at least to me. Although, the counter-argument would, of course bring up the "vocal minority," i.e. anti-IMVU movement. People that don't care really don't say much, and just sorta move on. And while that is in no way supposed to or intended to convince you of absolutely anything whatsoever,
So, again, I can boil down my entire argument to something very, very simple: I think that we don't have enough concrete information to make an informed decision, and, while biased against your position, am unimpressed with your ability to carry the burden of proof of your claims. I understand you don't like Dragoneer and IMVU, and I quite frankly don't care about either of them. I honestly, truly think that that sums up my position on this subject matter as quickly, simply, and honestly as possible. This isn't a battle you can win, nor was it one that I could win either. You're not going to convince me otherwise, just like I'm not going to convince you otherwise, as I said in my first post.
Basically you use that old fallacy in which you convert the non determinism of numerial results to justify that then anything can happen as if everything was utterly random. You can speak of cases in which the numeric results failed, but for every single one of these cases there are hundreds in which the numbers say all. One does not even have to know more than simple arythmetic to notice that, if a bussine's purpose is not to starve, one can't spend more than what one earns. Is it so hard to understand? Let me repeat it for you: one can not spend more than what one earns , and in this situation, Imvu would be doing so if they are just going to limit themselves to ad revenue and "magic userbase increase". I say magic, because beyond this point is pretty obvious that more than 3/4 of the furries are NOT going to use Imvu, let alone pay for their horrible and overpriced services.
This is as simple as watching a car about to collide with one another... and you, instead of warning the person in the car, just limit yourself to say "oh yeah even when the probabilities are very high still I don't care, maybe the car will eventually fly or something, afterall, everything can happen!"
Don't question me about the information, I did put a link to an official source, if you have problems with that information then bash them and not me. At least I am quoting statistics unlike you. And it is not my problem if you do not like them.
You attempt to make an apology of the TOS, but you ignore that this site owes it's value to the artists and not the other way. The new TOS is spitting over the face of artists, because artists were the ones who made this site wonderful, not Dragoneer who merely sat in his ass the whole time doing nothing.
Due to the very small amount of furries that are going to jump into Imvu due to the perceived betrayal, this can not be seen as an investment. It WOULD be an investment only if they plan to squeeze money from us by installing fees of use and Premium accounts, and that's what we know because that's the most obvious thing they are going to do in order to get money to cover the investment and obtain profit.
And using the word "capitalism"? We are in 2015, where do you live? It is immensely absurd to talk about capitalism right now as if it was a bad or good thing. Capitalism simply is what it is. This site would have flourished with a bussiness exclusively directed to furries and made by furries such as Bad Dragon. Even when that site makes me want to puke, they would have been a much better choice since they understand how the furry internal economy works and not these dumb newcomers of Imvu who are just going to blindly push their policies.
You go on and on and on about how anything is possible and we are not certain and bla bla bla. But there are times, pretty often indeed, when you do not need further information to know what is going to happen. You see a car going at 100km/h and then you pretend to make it completely motionless in a distance of 1 meter. That's not going to happen. With Imvu is the same, they are a bussiness, they don't want to starve, and in order to cover the money they have invested and obtain profit they will have to do MUCH MUCH MUCH more than what they are telling us. Only an authentic naive person would believe that they are going to recover that money by mere ads and possible growth.
We have concrete information, it comes from understanding the basic of the basic of the veeeeeeeery basic of finances and using a bit of math. If you don't want to see that, if you see oil being poured into water and you still decide to think that "well one never knows, maybe water and oil are going to become a compound instead of a mixture this time", then you are willingly ignoring the facts, and that, that's pretty much the opposite of being reasonable.
Now let's start this for real: I'm not an idiot. I understand basic business. I'm an adult with a job and expenses. I understand that I cannot spend more than I make, for in the longrun I'll bleed my savings dry. But, I also understand that FA doesn't need to be profitable in-of itself. Sony famously under-valued its PS2, for instance, to make it affordable, and lost money on each console sold. By the very, very basic logic you put down, Sony should have gone out of business or dropped the PS2. But, it won the console war of that era. It brought about the rise of DVD's. The PS3 was a similar case, being a fraction of the cost of a blue-ray player, helping the medium achieve dominance over the HD-DVD. Alternatively, for a more common example, look at printers. Basic printers are relatively cheap, often to the point of being priced lower than the ink that comes with it. But, the companies recoup their money in selling replacement cartridges of ink, thereby recouping the costs and making a profit. Point is, not every part of a business needs to be profitable, it just needs to be profitable as a whole. And, for the record, buying another company tends to involve looking at its books, expenses, and estimated costs to run. Dragoneer and IMVU made an informed decision, and created mutual terms for the purchase.
Your concrete information, again, is speculative:
> You're assuming Dragoneer's wage. ("Paying Dragoneer, who is an IT or he claims to be, costs around 4,166 per month")
> You're assuming a team of crack coders, and their salary based on little more than what you claim to be a mean/median salary. And, again, the difference between "mean" and "median" makes quite the impact on the meaning of the number given. Basic statistics. Y'know. Arithmetic. Math. ("Paying a group of coders, let them be four coders. A professional coder earns around 128,000 per month, so lets assume a month of work for 10,600 * 4= 42,400 dollars")
> Your not backing up the specific information you used so I could recreate how you reached such a wage, failed to provide a screencap, and your "official source" didn't lead me to your conclusion, but rather a doorway to punch in information that, again, I cannot replicate. ("sources of salary: http://www.payscale.com/ ")
> Your math isn't evidence or based in fact, but rather, again, assumption. ("Consider this rough draft...", "pretty obvious that more than 3/4 of the furries are NOT going to use Imvu")
> You continue to claim your math in concrete, despite grabbing numbers and making a large number of assumptions. ("The difference between your speculation and mine is that mine is based in official numbers.")
> You're making straw man arguments, good sir. You're taking a simple fact (again, we quite literally have no information to make a solid conclusion about what's going to happen) and you're assuming I'm holding all possibilities, on matter how improbable, to be of equal chance with more realistic, probable outcomes. ("... if you see oil being poured into water and you still decide to think that 'well one never knows, maybe water and oil are going to become a compound instead of a mixture this time'", "just limit yourself to say 'oh yeah even when the probabilities are very high still I don't care, maybe the car will eventually fly or something, afterall, everything can happen!'")
Is it hard to assume that IMVU is hoping that furries from FA will come over to IMVU? That seems to be rather clear in intent. Is it hard to think that maybe you can find cheaper coders than what you claim? Is it hard to swallow that throwing out numbers doesn't make your information impressive, but rather, without proof to back it up (that you are clearly lacking) it's meaningless? I'm not sitting here saying that every possibility is equally likely, just that things have quite literally just started. On the other hand, with your wild, unfounded, unsupported assumptions, you're declaring the site dead. What you come up with supports your claims, and thus that's your stance. My stance is, again, literally the following: it's too early to tell. This isn't "we're about to be in an accident." This is, "we're at the starting line, and the starting pistol was just fired." No one's taken a step yet, no one's fallen, no one's limping. People are just complaining.
Apologizing for the TOS? There's no apology needed! It's there, in writing! If you don't agree with the TOS, it's literally a case of "GTFO." Owing it to the artists? Who use this 100% free site to make a living? And offers dirt-cheap advertising? Let's look at something here: FA was a privately owned organization. Dragoneer was full owner. He, quite literally, had every right to sell it. He, quite literally, had every right to do whatever he wanted to the site. And he kept propping it up. he kept it open. He kept it alive. Not perfectly, not well, but given the resources do you expect a miracle? Given the fanbase, the reactions, hell, even the dust storm that's been kicked up because of this, wouldn't most people have given up? So, what does Dragoneer do? Finds someone who can properly back the site. For the community. Makes sure the people that buy it understand what FA is, what it means, and why it's so damn important. That... that doesn't sound like a betrayal to me. That sounds like it's in his rights. It sounds like he's trying.
"Willfully ignoring the facts?" Please, give me facts. Or, rather, don't. Because... this? Us? We're water and oil. I've been trying to pry for, y'know, facts here. You haven't given me any. This is McCarthy. You're waving a book around that you claim has all the proof, but you won't show it to others. You pump out numbers with little to no basis. The argument you've presented is based on assumptions. And, again, my argument has been "It's a bit early to freak out." Because, y'know, three months, going on four months, and things are still running as smooth as before.
You are, again, taking basic concepts that are correct (businesses need profits, revenue needs to come from somewhere) and applying your own personal biases or made-up numbers to support your claims (see the list above again, if you'd like). I critique your argument, and all you do is wave your hands and shout "Rhetoric!" I use your logic on you, and you're more than happy to point out the fallacy, but god forbid someone points it out to you.
Feel free to have the last word. I, again, am part of the group that's willing to give IMVU a chance. If FA really is on the precipice, it needs people that aren't going to freak out over change. You're the oil that clearly isn't mixing here. So, I suppose I'm as greedy as Dragoneer, perhaps? Or an enabler, at least. Do have fun, but if you comment I won't be reading it. While it's been a great time-sink, like so many of them it's also been a colossal waste of time in trying to extract a semblance of logic from your stance beyond fear of change, fear of the unknown.
But, in either case, i do bid you a good morning, afternoon, or evening. Whatever is appropriate.
A further testament on how much you don't understand simple math goes by your attempt at criticize the numbers for wages I'm putting there. Do you realize... DO YOU REALIZE, that even if the group of coders, even if Dragoneer's wage both were half of the numbers I gave, the monthly revenue is still pretty much not enough to pay all that? Log into Alexa or any other web analysis site and check how much this site makes in Ads.
If Ads were never enough to even keep the site afloat, hence why Dragoneer had to open for donations every five minutes, what makes you think Ads will be able to pay for the site AND the wages of the employees? As simple as this: if you can't fill a small jar with all of your USB's, then it's OBVIOUS you can't fill a bigger jar with the same amount. It's really really simple
Now, they may claim that the Imvu userbase is going to increase.... ha! Just look at the comments in this and the other journals: most people are too angered at Imvu to even wish to get in their site, the remaining ones claim that SL is much better and cheaper and only a very very very few ones have tried Imvu or are willing to. Even this link is a testament of how much virtually everyfurry is mad at Imvu: http://penguinrandomhouse.ca/hazlit.....goes-corporate
So this is it, as simple as that, the Ad money is not enough to even cover the costs and virtually everyfurry hates Imvu. Thus, the only thing they can do is to squeeze money in other ways. It's obvious they will, even if they reassure that they won't. WITH SIMPLE MATH one can demonstrate they are lying!
I know your type. You feel yourself like an intellectual just for being different, but I have shown you you can't do simple math. You want to believe their lies, you want to believe they just came here to pour their money because they are pretty cool guys? Is that what you want to believe? You want to believe they bought FA just to leave it like that and spend much more money than what they are going to earn? Is that what you want to believe?
Ok, do it, try Imvu and spend your money into it. Just remember that every cent you spend in them is money that your fellow furry artists could have earned, money that they needed to feed themselves, their pets and even their families.
Here, here. A voice for reason and logic.
It costs the user continuous amounts of money to upload any items to IMVU, in most cases, more than what they cost to the public.
IMVU now also requires you to have VIP to upload anything, and that is a monthly payment.
And apart from those fees, most artists will have to not only buy their names and age verify, but also buy AP (Access Pass) to put anything sexual up.
And on the catalog TOS, you cant have aroused genitalia depicted anyways.
Just my two cents since I scanned by that.
“Copyright protection subsists from the time the work is created in fixed, tangible form. The copyright in the work of authorship immediately becomes the property of the author who created the work. Only the author or those deriving their rights through the author can rightfully claim copyright.
In the case of works “made for hire”, where an artist has created the work while in his/her capacity of employee, the employer and not the employee is considered to be the author and copyright holder. Where a work was created jointly by more than one artist, the authors of a joint work are all co-owners of the copyright in the work, unless there is an agreement to the contrary. Copyright in each separate contribution to a periodical or other collective work is distinct from copyright in the collective work as a whole and vests initially with the author of each contribution.”
If you paid an artist to bring an idea, a song, a poet, a story. They all belong to you, both in authorship and copyright.
So, for physical, tangible goods, you are absolutely, positively correct (and I really, honestly do applaud you for using a quote). If I commissioned a painting, it would be mine once completed, and mine to do as I wished, including sell to someone else. Digital art is different, however.. And here is another source. An artist doesn't need to give me the original files, for instance. It's why I cannot issue a DMCA takedown on any site for art I've commissioned (rather, the artist), and why F-List needs confirmation from the artist to take down unlawful submissions to the site-hosted images, rather than the commissioner. As a customer, I can talk to the artist about having the rights to an image as well, but that's another matter. So, it's possible to own digital art you commission, but not the default stance.
At the end of the day, I cannot legally make prints of this and sell them on my own, but the artist who did it can, and doesn't require my permission to do so. An artist, by their TOS, can restrict where I can post art I commission. If I commission lines from an artist, the artist is in the right to restrict me from getting it colored by anyone else, because they hold the rights to it, whereas I merely have permission to download and post it.
You have to consider that this is art, not a product. Art tends to get handled differently, and digital goods are a more recent and political quagmire of issues.
The "Copyrights" section of this article puts it rather well. Art is handled differently, as are digital goods. Unless otherwise specified, the artist does retain the rights to the piece, though I suppose you can say that, maybe, the casual affair in which artists handle commissions leads to confusion (I can't say I've ever discussed ownership of a piece while asking for a commission before). We're merely given a license to post it, much like Steam gives us a license to play a game as opposed to own it. This isn't producing a carpenter making a chair, or a tailor making a suit.
I am guessing we had the same mental reaction to that statement.
and people do have alot of legitimate concerns over the future of fa.
It sounds like somebody saying:
"coke bought stocks of General Electric. It will be a great day for electricity users world wide. coke is sure it'll boost their customer numbers significantly."
FA is a heavyweight in the furry domain. So is GE in power generation.
I cannot wrap my mind around these points:
Coke is based on a totally different market and different methods of operation than GE. Same for IMVU and FA. Accordingly I do not see how the acquisition would benefit IMVU. Without changing their offers ( in general: a vastly different approach to Avatars and avatar-building ; for me personally: A different business-model and native clients.. but I am a nerd... ) I don't see how they expect to attract new customers. GE, for example, has dozens of global competitors, like Alstom, Siemens, Mitsubishi Heavy, Hyundai, ... Coke's presence won't affect such a playfield at all.
Likewise, Coke has comptitors. Again I do not see why people buying pepsi would change to coke because GE is now owned by coke. Their local powersupplier which uses GE components, or their toaster which might be from GE seem to carry limited significance for that.
Namely:
When I put a lot of love and detail into a furry 3D avatar, , I'm using SL already, because of the degree of freedom and its flexibility.
If Avatar-building is too complex, and I only want some somehow furry avatar, theres hundreds of LOTS cheap or efen totally f2p online and offline MMO's around.
When I want Action with a furry avatar, again, I won't go for IMVU.
There's SWTOR , or elderscrolls and many more for that.
Thus, for me, The acquisition makes no sense commercially.
Now, I am willing to believe in the kindness of people.
But I am also a member of the church of the flying spaghetti monster.
In which case IMVU ( with tons of copyright-infringements / DMCA Takedowns ) and FA ( apply your favourite criticism here - mine is "inefficiency and inconsistency in decision-making", which is more of an annoyance from my point of view) seem like two unlikely entities to join forces.
This, the comment of Aries_Hausdroff pretty much explains the point to those who say "oh come on just put your faith in".
Just look at this: everyone knows Tumblr, but half of the people here didn't know anything about Imvu until they first saw that word in Fender's first journal on the subject.
And, really, what parent either knows their kid is on IMVU, or what parent allows their kid on IMVU that actually knows/suspects what goes down on chat sites? Or cares. I mean, we all know, come on, everybody clicks the 18+ regardless of age. 14 year olds are going to talk about sex, at least once, it's the age group and it's human biological thing. Puberty.
Like those (while generalized) parent groupings is going to give two thoughts about FA. They're either oblivious of don't care about their kids internet shenanigans.
But I don't think this is a thing users should be panicking over outright. To be honest, FA could use improvement. I mean jeeze, just the site layout alone screams early 2000's.
FA won't be taken down. There's no legal internet censorship that caters to angry suburban parents about which websites exist and what doesn't. If that was the case, any and all Wican/Pagan anything not 101% Christian websites would have been utterly destroyed years ago lol. IMVU would probably just sell it to somebody else, cut their losses and move on, if it even bothered them that much. From what I know, IMVU probably won't pay it any mind.
While we're not talking money here (or at least not huge big money, at least not for the majority of artists), the idea that folks might leave FA or not, and discussion on the subject, I believe comes up over the resource of time which is even for the NEETest NEETs still finite.
I imagine it's questions like "If the site is going to tank, is there a point in uploading an entire gallery of stuff {daily upload limit} at a time?" "If I believe the site is going to become overly restrictive in the future, is my time not better spent building myself up elsewhere?" "If others leave the site, will I be able to track them down again later or should I just save myself the search and start networking somewhere else more stable?" "If I find FA questionable as a site, should I consider my efforts establishing/building an online presence better spent with people who feel the same way?"
I think you get the picture. Whether or whether not it's worth worrying in this instance is up for debate (especially considering how close it is to April 1st right now...)
I haven't been here as long but, this is reassuring thanks. ;u;
Not everyone is upset, but some people are. And thats okay.
I wasn't talking about you.
You came to the defense of somebody who isn't angry about whats going on and suggested people show tolerance to how people feel about the subject, despite the fact that the person you defended was being dismissive of how someone else was feeling.
I was simply stating tolerance goes both ways. If it shields one side of the argument, but not the other thats not tolerance.
When your only weapon are words in today's world you already lost. Period.
(apologies if it's not as humorous to readers as it was to me)
To control the age of people who can use adult content on their site IMVU has a thing called an Access Pass. It's available for those 18 and older and it grants the user access to things like adult-only chatting, as well as mature clothing and adult orientated furniture and poses in their catalog. It costs roughly $20, and without it you can't even see the vast majority of the art that's being stolen and sold by thieves on the site. Unless you go so far as to break past IMVU's security. You kind of need to be aware of the theft and see the art you're filing a DMCA notice for.
Filing a DMCA is free, yes. However there are counters. A counter-notice works in the reverse. It makes similar statements claiming that the work is not a copyright infringement, either that they hold the rights to it or their use of it is legal (fair use, licensed, etc.) and that the original notice was wrongfully filed. After that the DMCA host then passes along the counter-notice to the person who filed the original notice. The property in question remains offline for 10 business days, after which, if no additional action has been taken (this is where needing money comes into play) by the original filer, the property can be used again.
For me, for example, an idiotic situation, as I don't want to have an account in their system as, following my locally applicable laws, IMVU is borderline on "depicting minors in sexualized situations", and, too, their client doesn't work on my system due to my preferred hardware. And I am tempted to bet their websites use flash, which is a no-go for like reasons.
I am a technically an extreme case, but I don't personally mind the issue. I have my issues with Neers / FA's actions at times, but he/they produce a set of results I for my part can absolutely respect.
I do have moral issues with imvu, and since long technical issues with imvu.
So , seeing that many people have heavier issues with FA and 'neer, and even heavier issues with imvu, I can easily understand that their emotions exceed my "huh?" level of confusion and reach emotional boilingpoints.
People are emotional.
I can easily accept that they rage, and won't ridicule anybody for it. Just caution to wait a day and then make a systematic analysis of the situation, define personal fa because the tripping points, and then prepare the neccessary measures.
I became more active on FA because the german furry forum I attended before degenerated into a more or less constant poo-slinging-contest.
With even the mods participating, it had become plain impossible to use the forum for its intended task: communication.
I synced my stuff to other websites, especially my own, when the point came where 'neer's announced strategies to handle outages and DDOS's collided with what I thought very vital and an appropiate measure.
By now I have my "tripping points" in regards to FA&IMVU defined.
It boils dow to:
- FA membership turns into IMVU membership ( due to serious moral issues )
- Porn gets deleted on FA
- FA turns into a paysite ( FA is one of the few sites I do not whitewash / adblock )
My "Public Lauding" Points I do have, too:
- IMVU gets real furry avatars
- imvu gets a gnu/linux client and / or an g/l ARM client
- fuckups like superbabsy123's gallerywipe get undone
- more transparency ( which kindles loyalty in my ) in FA
- a bunch of often minor improvements turn up.
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/...../#cid:45020481
Basically, this means that IMVU is earning directly and indirectly ( more registered users = more marketvalue ) from the arttheft taking place on its platform.
That could be called extortion or supporting / hiding of a crime, which, I am not sure on US laws as i am an EU citizen, might well be a de-facto crime - and thus all the reason needed for people to complain about it.
I was concerend that IMVU was going to directly change FurAffinity in a money grab oppurtinity. I'm happy to hear that there will only be more 3rd Party Ads (I can deal) and no charging to sell art or view NSFW material. I hope it only stays with 3rd party ads.
•Changing all of the font types to match
•Changing how you look for chatrooms
•Adding bright obnoxious colours to people's profiles
For Greedy money grabs:
•Charging newbies to make a chatroom (Originally FREE)
•Forcing you to have VIP to use the creator program (Originally FREE)
Those were the ones off the top of my head, and I haven't been on IMVU for awhile
they also charge you make groups and chrage again to give the group to someone else
-Newcomers can no longer host their own chat without paying
-You now lose more money from becoming a creator
I just don't trust this at all, and I have every right not to.
2.) I've established myself two serious concerns being A.) Pointless updates that only make things worse and B.) Charging for things that were free (Think a site for 14 year olds is going to buy a literal porn hole like this and not charge us out the ass to view NSFW pictures to "protect the younger userbase)
3.) I can see now that you're only going to insult me
I'm NOT going to stand for that. If you keep replying to me in this immature, insulting manner, you'll be blocked and/or reported. Leave me be now, I don't wish to be part of this thread any longer.
Cheer up, we can't be defeated so easily ^^
I have no want or desire to be rude to other memembers of the fandom I feel so passionately about, but when they jump to insult me because I don't agree with their opinions is awfully rude on them. I'm willing to politely debate on the issue, and I'm hoping to be swayed to gain some trust, but when my concerns get thrown off with a "Meh", it's infuriating. I try to take other people's views into consideration when talking over different sides of a debate, I at least expect the same respect.
I can't link you it the profile cards are on IMVU's actual site, which require a download to get to the game.
I don't know if you grew up in a rich environment and have no REAL idea about the struggle. but by saying it isn't your propblem you practically say you don't care about the thousand of people that suffer from changes. It's like if youtube changed how it promotes videos! it doesn't effect you! but it can ruin the lives of thousand of youtubes. Allowing bad things to happen just cause it doesn't effect you is a very poor outlook on life.
Don't bother to reply, cause I probably won't read it. (truthfully)
- Been on IMVU 8 years.
more furries that join> more money they make.
So, furries with FA go to IMVU, IMVU furries who don't know about FA check it out.
Both make money / new clients from it.
Just dumb to see people flipping out over what might be. Have some faith.
Neer is "Feared" for quixotic decisions. People have thus reason to think this will be one, too.
IMVU has been troublesome for creators, to say he least, and has a primary userbase that conflicts with a portion of FA's content.
Given 'neers track-record, combining it with IMVU's perceived standard approach for revenue-optimization, people fear that
- sooner or later porn will vanish from FA,
- the IMVU users will steal actually even more content from Artists from FA.
- IMVU will increase its userbase by the FA users who have to create imvu accounts to issue dmca takedown notices, thus profiteering directly from the damage done to the community on FA
- IMVU won't make native clients for other systems
- IMVU won't make any "furry" avatars other than nosebleed-expensive ones possible - IMVU will retain their "human with an airbrush accident" avatars, will market them as furries, will use its ownership of FA as a seal of quality, and by that cement the negative views of the public about furries ( like, adult content on FA, minors in IMVU => furries are pedobears )
That is, short overview, the problems i see in the worries and anxieties of the people around.
'neer manages to keep the site operating. I am a master of computing science, I fricken learned all that. And he doesn't even use standardized tools like phpbb3 where there is a million of developers and admins out there which he can ask for help when something goes wrong.
I assume that 'neer isn't a professional as some of his decisions are contrary to anything I learned. However, most of the time they work, and that's a fact that I cannot ignore or wave away.
So he's more than just able and capable, he delivers.
Thus I needed a word that would describe my opinion that he is often making things excessively difficult for himself, a word that catches that his actions are incomprehensible to others on an almost regular base, but yet honors that indeed he gets things done most of the time.
And this "most of the time" is way "more often" than for me.
The site runs now as it did 3 years ago.
I expect a site to be "operational".
'Neer delivered thus, in the way I thought of the word, quite well for a hobbyist.
My own homepage which has zero load and only a pack of static content had more downtimes than FA had.
Admittedly, because I don't care that much as the server is just 8m away from where I sit and its mostly a testbed for experiments.
However:
For the way I meter things: Accessibility was overall good, as I know professional websites with more blowouts, and the base functions which were the cause for me to join FA at all never ceased to work.
Improvements and bugfixes are nice, but the best bugfixes won't help if the site is offline.
So, for my book - and I am aware it is a very small and dirty one compared to what many artists consider "a book" - 'Neer "delivered".
more furries that join> more money they make.
So, furries with FA go to IMVU, IMVU furries who don't know about FA check it out.
Both make money / new clients from it. "
Well, there's so many points flowing around out there it could cut a man, or woman.
But this has to be one of best in my opinion.
There is no reason IMVU would spend money to buy a website just to trash it. That would ruin a large part of their fan base and make their site revenue crash.
Think about it logically man. No business will go into a contract to loose business. It just doesn't make sense.
They're are IMVU ads on here but the only way they make money is if people ACTUALLY CLICK THEM. So people like you clicking them and paying money to use IMVU. There's this nice thing called ad block. Unfortunately it blocks artist. but also those annoying ads for IMVU that somehow make money by just being on the FA site.
This all boils down to: Don't like it? Use AdBlock.
This will also unfortunately ruin the income of artists who pay to advertise. I wish you could just filter what ads you want to see out from the spammy addfilled ones.
As a rule of thumb: Don't click on any 3rd Party Ads from IMVU. Just for safety.
Just a thought~ Gotta try it myself too x3
"What will IMVU do with FA?" asked by Roycefox
That’s a better question for Dragoneer. We really believe that FA knows what is best for the FA community, so we have committed support both financially and through other resources. We want to let it run independently and see it thrive.
A LOT of users seemed concerned that the ads coming will be trying to auto-install spyware/malware
The ads being delivered come from a top advertising provider for websites (Google ad network) and are screened thoroughly as part of their review process to ensure no spyware/malware is included.
Publishers may not place AdSense code on pages with content that violates any of our content guidelines. Some examples include content that is adult...
Sites with Google ads may not include or link to: Pornography, adult or mature content...Excessive profanity...
I dont mind vore, sometimes its alright in terms of art-only as nothing gets harmed for real that way, but it doesn't get me off or anything of that sort. I just can say I dont quite understand how art of someone eating food or organic matter would differ much from art of furries eating furries/animals, i'm not here to argue or laugh (at) someone's viewpoint or at anyone in any manner that's unpleasant.
Wow, people dislike vore, the fetish, but enjoy eating, which helps them remain alive? Hilarious, I know.
Been using it since it came out!
I can't believe that IMVU thinks that we are this naive. Fuck them.
The guy is making alarming claims and it should be looked into it
At the rate he's going he's looking at paying court fee's and being laughed out of the court room.
That's how US Laws work :P
https://twitter.com/panderp/status/.....75177687912448
He never stated he didn't have proof
The problem here is not so much the court process but on how IMVU would face this information
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/225126/
If he did, he would have voiced his concerns almost 8 years ago when the site was originally sold (and the sale of which he was clearly aware).
edit: also if he owned part of the site wouldnt he owe quite a bit of money for keeping it running? or is that not how these things work.
Despite that, it's still seen as hugely odd or disturbing.
But, all that really matters is if you're getting paid. They can all suck it for being haters, and they'll never know the joys of business savvy or getting ahead in life because they'll be dedicating their time to trying to put everybody else down. Same people probably jerk off to it in secret.
I'd just like to make sure that Mr. Durrett understands that there are investors keen to step in if/when he realizes FA might not be the golden investment he thought it was. Always a chance IMVU would be keen to flip FA for a quick profit and abandon whatever their long term plans are give the blowback.
:P It's a rare optimistic thought, but I'm hopeful nonetheless.
There is no reason to believe that owners could not work together to bring in more talent; and there is a difference between ownership and day-to-day management. On top of that, I truly hope that whoever lands in a managerial role understands this advice here: If you ever find yourself in a leadership position facing a problem you think is out of your ability, take a look around you. Is there anyone who can do it better? Not someone a thousand miles away, not someone from another time; right then, right there, facing that problem, is there anyone else who is better suited to lead? If not, then you rally and do everything you can to succeed; if so, then it is your duty to pass the baton and back that person to the very best of your abilities.
Everyone has an ego, but it’s got to take a backseat to completing objectives and making progress. It is my hope that spreading power between the right number of people that we could more easily accomplish that goal than with any single entity running it. Worry about capability before intent; if no one has enough power to go on an ego trip, then one need not worry about temptations that may lead things astray.
Might be idealistic on my part, but I genuinely believe that FA could be run well with fandom ownership; and I absolutely believe fandom ownership would be more successful than IMVU.
To each their own, though, right? ^.^
If IMVU/FA continue to ignore this, then do what an actual investor would do and give funding and support to their competitors. Establish a new competitor. As it stands, all post IMVU buy-out "investors" sound really wishy washy imo. They want to "save FA" but they do not have the whatever it is that the admins were looking for as a funder/owner/partner. So get capitalist and get ruthless about it, steal their client base for a different site, or really it just looks like imaginary money being thrown halfheartedly at a wall.
And since you made this decision to sell FA to IMVU, and given how you practically embezzle donations and don't ever provide receipts and never accomplish what you took donations for in the first place I do not have faith that you even know who owns your site. I can tell you IMVU owns it now, and I sure as hell hoped that when you sealed the deal that a business lawyer was involved, or you are as fucked as the rest of us.
Fucking LOL
Glad I saved it before the comment got deleted
Have fun
Without that how do we even know these answers came from this so called CEO
Even conspiracy 'proof' that I see getting posted around lol Photoshop is something widely practiced around here.
It won't satisfy anyone sadly, not until we see a more physical proof and that won't happen over night I'm afraid.
Hilariously, there's easier ways to edit text within a website and screenshot it as evidence, proof, or anything like that. I could make you say whatever I want and post it. People would have to have enough info to attempt to locate your original post to prove it untrue.
http://i.gyazo.com/9f7c0603410cf72f.....b98db7478d.png :D
But so far so good.
Well you should stop that because it's not. You pay the artist for a service [to render a pre-agreed upon subject in their own style] and unless you pay them for the ownership rights, you own nothing. The only exception to this is if you buy a print or own the traditional original of the piece. Even then, you essentially own the paper/canvas, not the artwork itself. This is why IMVU needs to have the artist's word to have it removed. Otherwise, I could just go around filing DMCA orders on anything I wanted, even if it was the original artist that posted it.
Bottom line, commissioners are not allowed to dictate where art they have commissioned gets posted. That responsibility lies solely with the artist.
So that's the best way to solve this issure? Cutting off all the other nations who isen't united states of america? Ok then... Stole all the art of the non Usa artist!
So, what is a DMCA notice?
It's a notice which the OWNER (only) of their copyrights can send to get stolen content removed from a site. Unfortunetly, it's not an international thing. It's something america has created. BUT, even if you live abroad you can still TRY to send one IF the website hosting your stolen content is american (which luckily IMVU is). As long as the thief doesn't counter-notice (they almost never do), the content will get taken down for sure and fast.
But keep in mind that if the thief somehow manages to make a believable counter-notice, you're screwed and can't do nothing unless you're american.
As you see you have to scare the thief or it's able to do a counter-notice and your art will still stolen if the artist is not american
Is all a "trust game" before bring out the lawyer
If you find your art is being stole and posted, fill out the request. If you don't fill it out, your art WON'T be removed from the site. If you fill it out, you have a MUCH BETTER CHANCE of protecting what's yours.
Thieves are generally quite simple minded people and dont tend to make a huge efford into understanding american law stuff. I spent a few weeks trying to find out with no results, probably cause my language skills were sucky back then too.
And no thief ever has filed a counter notice to my dmca requests and I've done around 50 of them over the years, and not american, works on most websites aslong as you know who to contact about it :P
(the guy up there effectively took most of my journal away from the quote leaving the important part away lol)
But yeah, I can't really see a thief going to that much trouble for something like this. I knew your journal wasn't saying what he was claiming, so no worries! Once I saw that he was just going to take things out of context for the sake of argument, I stopped even replying. There's no convincing someone like that...
IMVU honors DMCAs from anywhere.
You don't have to be American for them to take action.
So they need to move with legal way and get a worste butthurt for this
Have any doubts..
Email the DMCA Administrator asking them if you have so little doubts.
http://www.imvu.com/catalog/web_inf.....rms_of_service
Its at the bottom there or to save you trouble of looking
DMCA[at]IMVU.com
They will answer you telling you they honor all DMCA notices, regardless of where in the world it comes from.
Instead of blindly stating that they do not and will not, best to check yourself, correct?
Why?
I am sitting in a room with a fellow IMVU Furry dev from Sweden...
Who sadly had to file many many many DMCAs.
IMVU honors any DMCA from anywhere in the world.
I have seen people from China DMCA someone from Germany...
Goes through.
They don't just go "OH, not American? F-you!"
They honor the DMCA and take the offending product down and into dMCAHold as they review it and wait for someone to contest or wipe it completely if review shows it is stolen and/or violation of the ToS.
If the infringer (IMVU, in this case since they are the host) refuses to take the material down, then yeah, you're in a weird situation, but you're not out of luck: what the DMCA takedown notice provides for is a way for the infringer to be immune from a copyright infringement suit while they resolve your complaint. But if they don't take it down, then you can still sue the host (IMVU) in American courts, even if you're outside of country.
I am not a lawyer though.
So your analogy isn't quite accurate. This is more like if the taxi driver (IMVU) was being pursued by the police, and the taxi driver refuses to stop the vehicle (take down the content). When the police question him later, he can pretend that he didn't know his passenger was a fugitive, but the cops will say "that doesn't matter, we told you to stop the vehicle." Hopefully that makes sense.
EDIT: Reply was supposed to be directed toward rwpikul. Someone needs to check the backend to see how discussion trees are displayed...
They are the ones who uploaded the infringing content.
or
They fail to properly respond to takedowns.
The whole _point_ of the safe harbour provisions is to allow a service which hosts content to have some choice between vetting every single thing for copyright violations or not applying any sort of control at all. In exchange, they have rules to follow should a violation be reported to them.
You have misunderstood the analogy: The taxi being ordered to pull over would be analogous to a site receiving a takedown notice.
Please either post the whole thing or nothing, it's not nice to use a cropped section that backs up your view in the situation but twists mine. After that part of the journal I explained how hard it is to file a counter notice so theres nothing to worry, you can still file a dmca and not be american and it's 99,9999999% sure going to be succesful. Oh and add a few more 9's to that number.
Sorry again
considering my characters i own if i pay someone the effort to make it, usually it falls under a sole purpose of my discretion where it ends up and businesses do this likewise where the point is of where it is being displayed, for example ads, illustration for stories. i doubt the artist has the final say on that for what they are being paid for the service as in even art designs for games as well and tv shows? sure they post examples of their work but at the end of the day they are hired to do such a job for whatever duration the company pays them for and they are not actually owning the work per se, but again all of that i'd have to look up more on it. i think there's a little of my point there in that in which the artist does not have full control of where it is posted. i see commissions if they are just of my characters the same thing. it can be debated if any of the artists characters are included to your point.
In books for illustrations, artists either sell outright or sell for royalties. Meaning they would get a percentage of each book sold. If many books sell, this is good for the artist. If only a few books sell, the artist would have been better off selling the work completely for a flat fee. Royalties contracts are usually only for a set amount of time as well, so companies will have to renew the contract after x amount of [agreed upon] years. This is why you sometimes see books getting released with new artwork.
But that all has to do with them SELLING the rights. Artists don't just automatically lose them because someone paid for a service which is what these others are trying to claim.
We have to have laws that protect both parties and so that's what we have. The law just states that you have to pay the artist for the rights AND the service if you want both. It's up to the artist to decide how much that's going to cost, but it generally depends on what the commissioner wants to do with it. Artists around here tend to give commissioners reposting rights for free [though I have a clause in my ToS that states I can revoke reposting rights if you're breaking my ToS (like removing my signature or not giving me credit)]. I've never had to revoke posting rights and I hope never to have to, but the clause is there to protect both the commissioner and myself.
As an example of selling rights, I don't make money off prints ever, but some artists make a good chunk of sales off prints at cons. If it was their practice normally to make prints of commissions and sell them [and they were up front about this], someone might pay them to NOT make prints of their commission if they weren't comfortable with it. The artist would generally charge enough for those rights that not being able to sell those prints would not impact them financially. So if they expected to make $100 from the prints, they would sell the printing rights for $100, if that makes sense. That way, the artist still has their income and the commissioner is not made uncomfortable by a bunch of people owning prints of their character.
I have sold the original artwork of traditional commissions before if the commissioner doesn't want it [with permission if I can still get in touch with them]. I don't have the space to store it all! But I always make sure the buyer knows they are not buying the character or any rights, just the physical piece of artwork to display. That way, no one is being wronged.
Most artists really do try to be good to our commissioners, they are who support us after all! Some artists take that for granted, and some commissioners take the artists for granted. It's the way the world is but luckily most people tend to try to be excellent to each other. :)
Character design is intellectual property and not automatically covered like copyright.
This is also why industry work is exponentially more in terms of cost than fandom work, it involves buying the rights. If that isn't in the contract then the artist does indeed get to determine what the art is used for.
There are a ton of unspoken rules in this community [and other online communities where art is a huge factor] that aren't necessarily legal laws, but are moral guidelines. For example; don't sell prints of a commission unless you have permission. It's a moral guideline. Artists would have to be pretty big douches to break those guidelines, yes, but they would not be legally wrong. They would probably lose business from then on and take a big hit to their reputation, but there would be no legal repercussions. That's all I'm saying.
Plus why all the people are able to stole the art without IMVU check if is really its and for us taking it down / remuved have to be suck a pain in the ass?
Another thing... Who stole the art will get banned, ok but they can make another account and do that again again again again and again over and over
Like i say IMVU have to check better too what people will upload and make the character owner too able to take down the stolen art cause we pay for it
The owner of such character gives the rights to the artist to draw them in their art style. They do NOT give the artist rights (unless agreed upon before the sale and IN WRITING.) To resale, redistribute and so forth any artwork, recording or commercialization featuring their character.
If you've noticed, many artists have drawn characters they weren't given legal rights to draw and have even been forced to take down artwork that features their characters.
Saying someone doesn't have rights over their character once it's been drawn by an artist is FALSE. You have every right unless agreed upon prior to purchase in a ToS or so forth to tell that artist that they aren't allowed to post anything featuring your copy righted character. However, most already know this and have a ToS made just for that reason.
The artist owns the original, they do NOT own the character portrayed. So the owner of the character does have rights over the art.
Posting this here since the person telling you rubbish has me apparently blocked lol. Good for them.
If you're saying the artist can't legally make prints of the commissioned work, you are wrong. The artist retains every right to do whatever they want with their own art including preventing the commissioner from using it at all [including reposting it]. Most artists agree that it would be morally questionable to profit from prints of a commissioned piece unless agreed upon beforehand, but it's not legally wrong.
If you're saying the artist can't make a new work on their own [without being commissioned] including someone else's characters and resell it as prints, etc. that is more of a grey area, but you'd be technically right. Legally, you'd have to have a trademark on the character [like Disney has on their characters], which most people don't bother getting. It costs money, time, and you have to prove that your character is unique. However, someone who did something like this would get a TON of flak from the community because it would be a morally terrible thing to do.
Characters cannot be copyrighted, only trademarked.
Artists retain the copyright to their works and can post it wherever, whenever, regardless of what the commissioner says.
Commissioners cannot post artwork they've purchased unless the artist gives permission. It's taken for granted in this community since artwork is shared and reposted so freely, but no artist is obligated legally or otherwise to relinquish reposting rights.
Edit: Oh, my bad, I do have you blocked. I'm sure you did something worth blocking you for, but I have unblocked you for the purposes of this discussion and I'll reblock you later. :)
it's not a morally terrible thing to do with trademarks. considering how things have happened on this website i have a strong feeling of investing money myself and others will too into trademarks if its to pursued the useage of mine in stories and future work. people may get butthurt but in the end if i am going to make money in the future and use my intellectual property i am going to make sure people dont take.
Your point of view kind of supports way too much on the artist side that they can do no wrong and own everything here and i know that's not right. the artist doesn't have absolute control of things even if they are commissioned. they are basically hired to do something for someone and for the socially acceptable thing for now is people don't try to create drama on where their art is posted.
I didn't say artists can do no wrong, I said it would be morally off for an artist to profit off a character they didn't own without permission. However, you wouldn't win a court case if you tried to go against them for it UNLESS you had purchased and filed a trademark.
i have to agree on that which makes me more these days really think hard on any commissioning in the future of artists until i get some of those. i know most artists wouldn't try to profit without permission, etc but cant be too careful.
If you own a character/made claims on a character. Hell, if you have artwork of the character and are the only one to do so that alone on FA gives you a copy right stamp with a date in the coding. <3
Anything done featuring your character doesn't give the original designer of that product the rights to use it however they please. Unless you agree upon it (as I said already lol). Most artists even have ToS contracts written up that you have to agree upon that allows them the license to use your character in artwork and to do with it whatever they wish.
When you ask someone to draw your idea's, does that mean that those idea's are owned by that artist? No, it does not.
Disney trademarks because they are a corporation, Disney itself is a trademark. The reason they trademark their characters is because they sale products themselves with their characters on them. It saves time, effort and money to do this in the long run but it doesn't mean your idea's need trademarks to be protected and owned by YOU.
Also, if someone resales anything with your character on it without permission. I do believe that's a huge no no haha
Here's the rub... there's a lot of "characters can only be trademarked" stuff going around and in fact that is for the most part true with exceptions. Distinct characters as a matter of fact do enjoy copyright protection so long as they are part of a work that is protected by copyright. It's a bit of a loophole in a sense. Ergo a trademark is not actually required to protect a character that has been defined in a copyrighted piece. However, for standalone protection then you would resort to trademark IF your state or local jurisdiction does not have expanded copyright protections. People seem to forget while copyright law has been established at the highest level of government, lower level governments do expand on those rights. Similar to how there is a federal minimum wage and a state minimum wage: A state cannot have a minimum wage lower than the federal level but it can raise it as high as it wishes as there is no federal law that caps the minimum wage. States can expand protections but it cannot override them.
In any event, copyrighting a character is a fairly easy process so long as one puts actual thought into it. I also encourage people to read this article that will explain how characters can be protected under copyright law which also cites court rulings as well:
http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclope.....right-law.html
Anywho, apologies about possibly spreading trademark misinformation!
Rights to characters may exist under federal trademark law as well as under state laws dealing with unfair competition and passing off. The key to federal trademark protection is that marks are protectable only to the extent that they are used to identify the source of certain products and/or services. Thus it is not merely having a description or depiction of a character, whether in text or graphic format, that matters. Instead, trademark rights depend upon having a character that is used in relationship to specific goods and/or services and which character is then deemed to be a “source identifier.” The latter term means that the character is considered in the minds of the public as identifying a particular source of the goods and/or services.
http://www.ivanhoffman.com/characters.html
TL;DR Unless your character represents a company or product subject to competition, you won't be trademarking it.
http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclope.....right-law.html
I found many law popularization sources agreeing with the fact that in term of French rights, the person who created a ficitonal character DO owns this charatecr's NAME while the artist who is drawing it owns the IMAGE.
BUT
Both of them (artist and creator) need to give their permission for the picture to be sold (as a print or whatever).
From this point of view, every single French furry who put a name on their character has the right to ask you NOT to sell his character as a print or whatever even though it's your work.
Also, they clearly state that also that picture rigths may differ from a country to another so this might not apply in the USA (making it kinda complex for everyone to understand what they are alowed to do or not).
Anyway, there are a lot of cases quoted as references which concern, as an exemple, characters like Tintin, Astérix and many other comicbooks characters so we can think it may be way more complex than that (and stating that people would atually have to FIGHT over artists who would overpass their rights)
One way to go through this "law" would, I guess, simply be to just change the name and pretend you DESIGNED the character, but I hope this eventuality will never happen.
(Sorry for the mistakes)
But if it did come down to a legal battle, I think I would be bound by US laws, not French ones, even if the commissioner was in France.
You can't force the laws of one country onto another, which I get is what you're saying, but it would be more accurate to say that a French artist would be bound by the French law, regardless of where their commissioner lived. A US artist still abides by US laws even if a French person commissions them.
As I say, though, a VAST majority of artists who sell prints at cons and such will tell you up front [either directly or have it in their ToS] that it is their intention or what they want to do. It is respectful of them to inform commissioners and it's the commissioner's responsibility to decide if they're okay with it. But in many countries, the artist isn't even legally obligated to tell the commissioner at all.
Again, it would be a really douchey move for an artist to sell prints without permission or at least prior information so the commissioner could agree to it beforehand. BUT in many countries, the law will not care. Even still, the artists who do things on purpose to wrong a commissioner may not have to answer to the law, but they do have their reputations to worry about. People are not going to want to commission someone if it gets around that they treat their commissioners badly.
I think it is best in every case to just make sure you know the artist's intentions beforehand if it's important to you so that you can avoid commissioning people who do things you don't agree with. That is why every artist should have a Terms of Service. :)
I've said my piece and I've even put it into practice over the years. I think the one who started this can google Federal Copy Right Law without dealing with shits like you or me.
I think the furry community as a whole should do such honestly, would really bring some light into their eyes.
At any rate, at least I moved on. ^^ Made my statement known and hopefully help some people out.
Also, generally a company would rather remove a piece of work from a site than deal with people breathing down their necks and threatening lawyers. It is NOT worth it to IMVU/any other website to keep stolen work up when the possible legal repercussions would be much more dire to them than the possible income they'd generate from keeping it.
No, they don't have the resources or time to police and fact check every single image that is put on the website, but they WILL remove things that have a DMCA filed as long as it's the artist doing the filing. It does not benefit them to keep that stuff on there.
People just need to breathe, and do whats necessary to protect their work. Its lame yeah, but expecting IMVU to know exactly what needs to be removed is just silly.
I mean, we even have art theft here and on other art gallery sites where you DON'T necessarily get any money for what you upload. People will find a way to scam people no matter the avenue. Once enough time passes, people will see that the world hasn't ended and things are exactly as they were before* and it will die down.
*Of course, I am only talking about the IMVU supposed "art theft." I don't necessarily believe the IMVU buyout of FA will change nothing in the end [as Dragoneer is claiming], but I am willing to see where exactly it goes before I flip out about hypotheticals and worst case scenarios. Lot's of bad things could happen...some good things could happen. For now, I will [relatively] quietly start using a different site as my main gallery and use FA for advertising and keeping up with buddies. ^^ It's something I've been wanting to do anyway.
Somebody even had the gall the other day to tell me "that I would know what it felt like when I got ripped off" in one of these threads. I just sent them google reverse image search of one of my works I found on some russian site lol. I think people should count their blessings, at least IMVU is an english-language site. Getting your art removed from foreign sites is much, much harder.
Ill just be glad when this is all over and I hope the best for FA. I pretty much share your "it could really go either way" opinion. Im just going to continue doing business as usual, try to use weasyl more, and wait and see how this pans out. As long as FA doesnt turn into dA or IMVU, Ill be cool.
Thanks a bunch for the watch btw! Ive been a big fan of your work for a while, Im flattered^^
And wow, I'M flattered you like MY work. XD I didn't know you even knew who I was! Your work is amazing, though. :)
Got it backed up on Dropbox and on an external drive!
Yeah, Ive only been a part of the digital ranks for about 2-3 years now?? Maybe someday Ill have 168GB of art in my folder haha!
Oh, you want to claim that this art is yours? Lemme just pull out my old sketchbook and prove you wrong.
Even if users opt to stay on FA, as a site, we've always stated more exposure is better for artists (and it's true). The tool can be useful for that. Posts directing people to jump ship, however, are far from constructive.
Now if only we had a cross-site gallery manager that actually worked...
http://blog.sucuri.net/2015/01/adse.....-campaign.html
I'd feel better if all ads went through a second round of vetting by the site admins before being distributed.
Prohibited adult content (never allowed)
Here are some examples of content that we don't allow:
Sexually explicit content
Text, image, audio, or video of graphic sexual acts intended to arouse
Examples: Hardcore pornography; sex acts such as genital, anal, and oral sex; masturbation; cartoon porn or hentai
It's a neverending battle and no one can stop everything. I say this as someone working at one of those companies I just listed. All the vetting in the world won't stop a malicious advertiser from swapping the creative payload or swapping the content of the destination redirect after it has been scanned. You can only catch them after they do it, pull down the ad, and ban the advertiser.
Dildos is a very serious topic.
There actually is a way to have adblock off to see our lovely user-generated ads, and block other ads! (Though, this would only work if both ads work on other ad servers).
https://addons.mozilla.org/En-us/fi.....ddon/noscript/
NoScript is a lovely tool that stops scripts from running on a page until you tell it to. Right now, I only have one script running, and that's for the ads on the page. You can stop flash objects from running, Javascript from running, pretty much everything.
I'm curious to see how IMVU's ads are going to run on this site, because it does take a bit of trial and error when it comes to figuring out what scripts do what. It works a ton better than Ghostry, too. :D
do you know of any add-ons for additional browsers? :3
I meant more so I could post a journal or something linking people to what you said, as im a user who utilizes FA's ad space and would not like to see mine and especially other artists having their ads blocked by default because of this~
Though perhaps I can search around for one, the firefox one is a great start and I thank you for that ^^
Yeah, IDK. I'm pretty sure there's a NoScript-type thing for Chrome, I just don't knowa bout it since Chrome isn't my primary browser. :D
2) What is defined as a "Quality" advertizement?
3) What will be the limit on the total amount of advertizements?
4) What other changes are there, that have been failed to be mentioned? Are there any more in consideration?
I hope that once you all decide to enforce these standards, you'll be ready with an outline of what you mean by "quality" (I'm taking it to mean that the resolution isn't poor and atrifact'd to all hell)
This is the last post for some time as we've got other goodies (improvements!) coming up.
I bet people would love you then.
And what about the companies the support IMVU (like Walmart/Paypal?) - what if it comes to light that a family friendly orientated site like IMVU has purchased a furry site that largely deals with pornographic material?
*gives cookies*
But, in all seriousness, those are the major concerns that I've seen people asking numerous times - both here on FA and on IMVU - and the higher ups on both sides avoid/ignore the questions entirely; which is more than a little disconcerting.
Take this for example, as I see the inevitable change of FA much like the change in Minor (kids aged 5 - 15) Hockey 'House Leagues'
In some, if not most leagues, if a player is to score three or more goals in a game, they are to be penalized. Effectively it's going to discourage kids from scoring and playing to the best of their ability. Because when one kid cries the parents lose their shit.
I'm aware that FA and Hockey are Polar Opposites... but I kind of see a bit of resemblance with the changes.. you know what I mean?
You literally described most of my time on VCL. Not to mention the devART furry community, or sheezyart. I swear most of the folks posting porn on sheezy were teenagers.
What brought sheezyart down was a change in who processed their payments, or was it hosts? No more porn, then came FA. Teens still continued to post their sad drawings of sad peens and possibly had some awkward talks with their parents when said sad peens were found.
If people can't post porn on FA, they will just go elsewhere. The site will either hemorrhage users and become a minor-safe deadzone, or they will find some compromise. No one is actually bound to use this site, and they know it. The game will be about changing things in subtle ways that don't effect how most users interact with the site. It's more "the company who supports the team decides to outsource printing jerseys to a cheap company in china instead of the local print shop. No one really notices and the kids don't actually care, making the problem (sweatshop labour and the death of small local business) more insidious."
The only way I can see an artist making a DMCA report without having to buy an age confirmed IMVU account is to get in touch with a IMVU member who has a VIP/age confirmed account and ask them to have a look for them, and grab any links that confirm a theft has occurred.
But then, that's assuming that IMVU will accept a report from an artist who doesn't have an account on the site to begin with.
At best, they might offer us a "generous discount" of 10% or something
I imagine that having a third party go through and screenshot any stolen artwork would work, but it would be that much clunkier and not as reliable as doing it ourselves and, yeah, there's always the danger of not being taken seriously if we don't have an IMVU account of our own.
Hearing it straight from their mouths would be nice, though. At least then we'd be able to stop wasting time asking and work on formulating a working solution based on the information given...
Won't stop me from dragging the question up at every opportunity, though.
Paypal may be an issue though.
They may be separate sites, but they're now associated with one another; there's no avoiding the connection between the two (especially considering that Furaffinity's copyright now clearly states it belongs to IMVU).
A family friendly site now publicly acknowledges it owns a porn site. That's not going to go unnoticed for long.
We already know that IMVU is as inconvenient as it can be for the artist to take the work down with the whole "Only DMCA's"
What about the fact we can't see all that is being stolen.
Really they're just busting holes in them.
Though the complainers never leave, they just want a soapbox for their
blatant attention whoring"concerns".the thing is all to open here
when, and how long
the IMVU issue all so stands
the sale came and went
we here from you fender on this
we get told about ads and no interferences
ok but the whole thing boils down to
theft,the changes they are going to make and the full out setting the site will see
it all boils down to the full out way many of us see this going
from the sale to posts and what there planning
they drop this stuff on here
you post it
and still we dont get answers
im not looking to start wars here but it still has a bad vibe to it all
IMVU has not said a word
we get posts from you fender
it seems that all this is still a bit covert
what we need to hear from them is what is true
from them not a copy and paste or 2nd hand posting
nothing agenst you fender dont see this as a bashing
but if there the owners..let them tell us
as for the drive and the whole bit
whats going to become of that
im sorry but so much has gone un touched
and the theft issue is still not right for this
im not convinced this is right
i read all the jurnals and see a lot of things not correct for all
You've given us a good response to the doubt and skepticism now don't abuse people's trust IMVU. (That is assuming people believe this journal. I myself am still highly skeptical about the whole ordeal)
-S
It's been ready for testing, but we ran into an issue with the site's coding for support two independent, unique UIs. While we could add themes, we have to recode the way the template system runs to support both UIs. We're hoping to have that done very soon.
it's best just to wait and see what happens before throwing a tantrum over nothing and jumping to conclusions. theres been alot of speculations of the 'what if's but there still all based on probability.
for me so long as no change's are made that financially effect me on and the change's are not too drastic or have a negative effect on me when using the site then im perfectly fine. if rumors of monthly fees show up just ignore them until they actually happen. but i trust/hope for the best for FA's sake and for now will just have to trust there judgment on this ^^ innocent until proven guilty right?
I made a journal expressing my concerns about what a company buying FA might yield, and if none of those come to pass I'll stick around.
and ditto ^^ personally hope nothing comes to pass. having to move to a new site with a different system and policy might be a bit troublesome and would take some getting used too for me.
1) How can we access the adult material without a PA Pass? We can't tell if our works are being stolen unless we can actually see it.
I'd also suggest flagging people who deliberately stole content and IS profiting from it, like the husky girl that has her gallery full of stolen artwork.
2) Why would the people who is largely established in Second Life want to use IMVU? What's better? What is IMVU offering for them?
seems %90 FA to me
People are going to forever complain, bitch and moan no matter what you say. Proof will only be seen when things do take affect and a positive or negative change occurs. >.<
So if IMVU has 5 different banner ads you would have to black list them... That or you get a fabulous script that just blocks anything with imvu on it
*That phrase is kind of gross on this site.
I'm pretty sure that IMVU's ads are going to run based on a different script than our ads. Just allow the script for our ads, and block IMVU's if they're going to end up being a problem.
I'm willing to give their ads a chance. but the moment they start giving me heart attacks with noise, or cluttering up my screen, they have to go :U
i dont particularly care at this point because imvu can only fuck this up so much but man you guys need to pay your prs better
After all, for IMVU you have to send in:
Photo of your ID
Social Insurance #
Pay $20
Why they even need your SS# I don't even know. That shouldn't be given to anyone except your employer. But that's the difference.
Get used to it.
Even I find him a lot more trustworthy than most furs in this community.
And that's saying a lot.
So go ahead and trust him.
You have nothing to lose by doing so, and you can trust me on that.
Lies are not my strong suit.
Money can be made off of furries and off of this site. IMVU needs to be very selective in the types of ads they put here. Non-furry ads equals guaranteed Ad-Block. Furry ads equals possible clicks.
Until the issues of copyrighted art being sold in IMVU's community, behind an adult paywall is solved, the furry community is not about to throw any money toward IMVU. That problem needs to be fixed completely as a top priority. We can't file DMCA orders on violations that we can't even get too. We know they are there, because people have come forward with screenshots showing huge amounts of stolen art. Essentially, they are telling us to file DMCAs to take care of copyright violations, but blocking us from seeing the violations in the first place - unless we pay for adult access. So the victims of copyright infringement are victimized again by having to join and pay, or they have to settle for continued infringements. No artist is ever going to be happy with that. They bought a furry art site, so they now need to cater to the needs of the furry community that uses it.
Examples of such questions were...
- will the cost of ad space increase with this new ownership.
- How will IMVU - a G rated/family friendly site - prevent their underaged users from being exposed to the pornographic content on FA is largely made of?(because FA has no means of verifying a member's age outside of putting in a date of birth, which can be easily faked).
- How will IMVU explain buying a largely pornographic site to their family friendly sponsors/promoters (Best Buy, Wal-Mart, PayPal)?
And I think as long as there is a system to verify age, you are pretty much legally off the hook. I mean, IMVU's verification is just spending money, right? Anyone can do that, not just kids. They borrow a card, spend money, use their own card etc etc. So if adult art is off by default, then the people who want to look at it will anyway, regardless of their age. And I think IMVU is leaving that out of everything about it being adult art. Hell, in their original announcement they said FA liked to sketch and animate work and share it anonymously; the wording was crap, shoddy, and untrue pretty much. IT was reaching REALLY hard.
The one thing I'm more concerned about that Neer & the CEO are ignoring and refuse to answer is something that affects you and many other bigger artists; what about all the adult artwork? There's NO way to report that without paying $20 for a stupid pass to see it. Especially since you can't have someone go in and report it for you, since you have to be the copyright holder. It really seems like they're just pretending to give a shit. If they did care, they'd make a code for a free week of adult viewable trials just so people can get stuff removed.
I am actually curious, since you use the site, how do you like IMVU? Is it any good? Do people have a founded reason (like myself) to be wary of this? A lot of people (also myself included) never heard of IMVU and only are hearing horror stories from a lot of people who used to be there.
Personally I still give 0 fucks about the acquisition, as long as it doesn't prevent me from posting my weird smut, and doesn't mean that someone else owns my stuff when I post it.
Everyone knows a takedown notification is the best way to handle this.
After all, it's legal and definitive.
So why worry?
You can just file a takedown notification.
Look up how to file one on Google; it'll be well worth your time to do so.
DMCA was made to be a last resort before legal action. All reputable art sites have a system in place that doesn't require artists to go that far. IMVU is doing the bare minimum to stay within the law, since they honor the DMCA. Any other art site goes above and beyond that legal requirement, because they actually respect the artists. IMVU needs to fix this and provide a flagging system that does not rely on the DMCA, if they wish to have the respect of artists and the furry community. It may not be legally required, not it is the right and ethical thing to do. They also need to resolve the adult paywall issue so artists can locate all the violations in the first place. Maybe they can issue read-only, no-functions-enabled access to FA members solely for the purpose of scanning for potentially stolen art. It would be limited to FA members who have adult access here, and nothing would work there except for the report button.
A DMCA letter is nothing more than a threat to take legal action, if someone doesn't removed your copyrighted material. If the person challenges the order, then you have to get a lawyer and go through with the threat, or back off and let them steal your work. Most furry sites don't require things to go that far. They simply remove the art. If the person challenges, the site looks at it and usually sees clearly who owns the rights, and takes the copy down. If you can show original sketches, higher quality, or PSD files, then there is no question who made the art. In addition, most art communities can easily recognize an original artist's style. The copy gets removed with no real names, no legal threats, and no waiting a couple weeks. Then, if that doesn't work, the DMCA is always there as the last resort it was intended to be.
IMVU - They allow their users steal it, and they make you pay to see it and do something about it!
With a policy like that, it's no wonder it's a haven for art thieves, and that their store is full of it.
When you file a DMCA there is only ONE person who reads it, the lawyer who works for IMVU. Not even the person you are filing the DMCA against.
I do not understand why you are so worried about using your name?
of course i'm not saying its a good idea to use the info online due to how easy theft is of identity and thats also a reason too in keeping it offline.
IMVU claims to celebrate creativity, like us. Let's see them prove it, by proactively cleaning up their pirated art store, without waiting for artists to take the legal route. They don't celebrate creativity at all - they celebrate art piracy, and even protect it behind a paywall. One look at their store speaks volumes.
The "paywall" as you put it is not to "protect art piracy" it is because the site has a large younger usebase that they want to keep far away from adult content.
And as for saying to clean up their store without the artists having to contact them. How is MVU to know what is or is not stolen?
There are artists on IMVU and there is likely to be products that were uploaded by the artist or commissioner.
I personally have some posters that are art. It was all either drawn by myself or commissioned by me and I got permission to make it. I keep my posters private, as they are for my personal use, but how would IMVU be able to tell the difference between something I drew and posted and something someone stole and posted?
They can't. So the artists have to stand up for their work. You can't remove something that doesn't belong if no one told you it doesn't in the first place.
And they can't rely on unofficial 3rd parties either because what if the artist gave permission?
Perhaps if I wanted to get access to people's legal names, I should just steal their art then? Sounds like a recipe for stalking. Many people have unique names (hello Spokeo), and harassment/stalking of adult artists is far from unheard-of in the fandom...
If they feel the DMCA was false, they can file counter DMCA.
A counter DMCA will provide the person who filed the initial DMCA the information of the infringer so that they may take them to court.
FA is a different case - sanitizing FA would only make any revenue from it go down the toilet.
Like I said... It seems like a horrible conflict of interest. It seems more like one of the CEO's of IMVU is a furry and was like... Hey, I'm sick of paying for advertising on a site that's always going down... And I'm sick of this site always having problems. Maybe if I throw a little money at it...
Either way, we all have to wait and see what happens. Doom saying does nothing but make others worry.
Evidently, you don't know how copyright law works.
And while I could give you a primer on it, I have better things to do.
So maybe you would do well to look up how to file a DMCA takedown notification.
You can find it in Google within five seconds.
Look it up; it's really not that hard to find.
Everyone keeps telling me that.
And damned if I can do anything about it, given that I'm an idiot and all.
So hey, apologies all around.
You didn't deserve such a snarky reply.
Like, seriously—my bad.
Every one of my concerns has been addressed.
All of the problems with this site will be solved in no time, right?
So hey, maybe I might start using the site full-time again instead of popping in just to snark on journals like this.
You can't really deny that this place is better than all the rest, after all.
Look at what else is out there, for God's sake.
You left, now stay gone.
Just wondering.
Clearly, people who go to business interviews in full fursuit mean business! (plus fender wears a tie. So it's clearly formal)
In addition, what changes to the site can we come to expect (Excluding the ads)? I'm expecting a lot of changes from this, and I'm wondering what they are.
And changes (UI, better mobile) browsing will be first, then we'd like to focus on usability (improvements for musicians, writers and organization). We've got a bad history of promising exact updates, but these will be the areas we start.
And one last question to get rid of my fears:
Will IMVU have the right to start changing things directly on the site?
I ask this because I'm scared that they'll start charging for things currently free on this site (They've started charging for things before). My biggest worries are that we'll have to start paying money to them to sell art/characters (They've done stuff like this for their creator program scam).
I really want to see this all work out, but I'm concerned about IMVU's greedy money grabbing side that long time users (Me) have come to see and expect.
It's a Yes or No question, and one he seems to be ignoring.
They won't answer because the answer is yes, and it's defined in the fact that IMVU owns FurAffinity. If they answer 'yes' outright, then they're going to receive even more backlash than they already have. That's why they aren't going to answer you themselves.
And then they get made when people start jumping the ship.
0. 'Neer isn't a leader of the furry community (he thinks otherwise, but that is out of topic)
1. Furry existed and went fine before Google and Furaffinity existed
2. This site has become NO1. for almost 10 years being run by a liar and incomptetnt dictator who appointed questionable people in his staff, made lots of never kept promises
3. Did you get a word to say (as a user) when Skype was bought over by Microsoft? When Microsoft then changed the TOS and made a crappy UI? Nope.
Things are changing here now.
Wait, see and judge for yourself.
There are alternatives out there if you don't like how it turns out.
Honestly...
Personally, I'm happy that they're cracking down on it. I keep my filters set so I don't have to see things like giant tits and sweaty balls. I don't want to have to deal with it because some asshole thinks it should be "SFW".
Would you want your boss stepping in and seeing that on your monitor at a normal day job? Probably not.
Still, not my site, not my rules. I've never had anything taken down or had any problems with staff...
I did have a problem with an ad once, but, how weird, it was resolved quickly by Dragoneer himself.
Honestly, if you don't like the site and you have a problem with how things are run here there are a wide variety of other options. Just saying.
You're a very argumentative person, I notice. Something tells me you won't be going anywhere.
And it all comes together now.
Thanks so much for your input n-n Have a great day!
Dragoneer's official statement to me was something along the lines of "quality assurance"
so in my opinion, they have no reasons most of the time.
Also, some of us have jobs where we are allowed (and prompted! ) to surf the net while we do our work- even as part of our duties.
Yes. They exist.
A website doesn't have to exactly cater to that environment. sure it helps to have it sfw for that measure but in most cases depending on what you're actually doing at the screen from your office desk. there's very few reasons to visit both if 80% of the time the task has nothing to do with either website. I'm using fb as an example too as people do that and in most cases people are coming on here to socialize from work.
If they received a notice: There would be no errors in their copy/paste (Unless they fixed them since I read it yesterday)
If they didn't receive a notice: They wouldn't have specific rules to write out
Only possible way to have specific rules that are poorly typed? They wanted to start up FA drama and faked it. They deleted their gallery themselves, and typed out a fake notice so they would have a sob story to get their fans to march against FA.
That said, where can we can use the same tool that moderator used to delete an entire gallery? Wiping stuff one image at a time is so slow, it must have taken HOURS to take that page down!
Frankly, if all is as it is said, then it works out well for all of us. And if something bad DOES come of this, THEN we have some good reason to burn someone at the stakes. ;D
Now if you will excuse me, I need to disappear. I WAS NEVER HERE. YOU SAW NOTHING. *disappears into a cloud of confetti*
What will happen to furries who pay for ad space on FA? Will that still be a thing?
(Also, who do I contact for something not covered in the ads that I'd like to discuss and see if a quote is possible? )
I have been reading this over a day in and out and it was up there <3
Thought I would let you know!
I'm normally polite and genuine with people, and strangely enough respect earns respect.
100% of the time I've ever had a question on here I've had it answered. Always. I've got this strange attribute that children seem to lack. It's called "patience".
I have been reading this over a day in and out and it was up there <3
Thought I would let you know!
Thank you so much, I very much appreciate you pointing it out n-n
It may have been posted after you guys had asked.
There is so much bullshit it is hard to find the real questions.
I'm just like...what? lol People are so caught up in the drama that they miss the actual answers to the questions XD
hoping you can get one <3 otherwise i'll prolly just email FA advertising ;O
Dragoneer: I need money! For updates!
*people give money.
Dragoneer: Thanks!
5 months.
Dragoneer: No updates guys.
*Dragoneer's gallery fills up with porn.
also we'll need to buy VIP cards to comment and fave
im still sticking around cause i wanna see how fucked up the site becomes from all this, and if it doesnt ill be really surprised
so yeah, if they can get more money from furries they will
Dfuq is up with people.
im not complaining, and im still sticking around, i wanna see FA surprise me :P
I'm so smart I have no idea where I was going with this.
Fired.
'Tis business.
They can't go and say "No, we will never, ever do that" as you and many others would want, because they can't predict the future, and they can't make indefinite commitments to anything. "No plans at this time" is basically as good as it ever gets.
No one's going to stand for that.
just look at the stuff they do to get furry stuff on IMVU
cause theres nothing like...oh i dunno...second life gigglesnort
We can always count on this: They're too greedy to charge. They can make money off the ad revenue, but if they get too grabby everyone'll ditch. We put up with it on IMVU because we're all used to having to pay for simple stuff...It's our choice to pay for an online game. If IMVU, however, was to start charging to view NSFW art, or charge us to sell art, we'd quit that so fast.
We have a trend to do a lot of stuff for free, and if they remove that right (Especially since this affects a lot of people's DIRECT INCOMES from selling art) they fuck up so much shit FurAffinity becomes a waste land with only a few users, and they would have wasted money on buying this site.
They best tread carefully, we're all about ready to fuck their shit up at a moment's notice.
sadly all furry sites suck. Sofurry is FA's dirty cousin, Inkbunny only likes you if youre a cub artist. Weasyl is apparently dead and full of SJWs...so if this goes down most people will probably move to tumblr, or pixiv
Nobody will care because furries are lazy and as long as there's a trickle of art, no matter how censored and covered with BUY AN IMVU PREMIUM ACCOUNT TO VIEW THE REST OF THIS IMAGE ads it is, they will stay. They'll complain but they'll take anything 'neer or IMVU shits into their hands.
Sigh.
On the other hand, in this fandom, community-ownership has historically been the rule (actually just private/personal ownership by people who are in the community, with various levels of support from the userbase depending on site) while here we see a considerably different situation given that imvu has heretofore had very little to do with furry fandom at least directly. This can swing one of a few ways... either imvu knows us better than we expect, and things stay reasonably peachy (or improve even), OR they make the site unusable either by trying overly hard to get blood out of turnips or by finding they're losing money on FA and shutting it down or handing it over to someone else (which in turn could be good or bad.)
As a footnote: the other accusations I alluded to were those aimed at Zaush, the fallout of which lead to a level of unrest similar to that of the things said about Zidonuke.
Will the ticket processing times be shortened? Will the moderation of the site be a little more fluid and on track?
I'd imagine that with things like server issues out of the way that these would then fall into place as well? (Still seeing clearly NSFW icons everywhere LOL! )
However, I do have to agree with the general vibe that I've been seeing. Yes, a DMCA notice is a wonderful tool, but since we are talking about online communities, many people are (understandably) hesitant to do so because they do not wish to disclose real-world identifying information about themselves. So my question to you is this: are you planning to implement some kind of copyright violation flagging system on IMVU? Most sites with user-generated content do have such a system, and having a flagging system in place will save everyone a lot of time (including IMVU's staff; it's a lot easier to review flagged violations than it is to respond to hundreds of DMCA takedown notices) and frustration.
Thank you for answering our questions.
What happens then will be a mystery because I still think it's a really REALLY stupid idea to buy a furry website with all it's social stigmas (very well earned stigmas by the way) and expecting it to be beneficial in any way.
Furaffinity users' outright rudeness towards IMVU on Twitter is sort of proof of this.
But yes, we can dumb it down to twitter users being rude to Barbie Simulator.
IMVU, we're more trouble than we're worth. We can barely take ourselves.
If IMVU bombs (Though I doubt it will seeing as it has quite a community and been around for 10 years.) does Dragoneer get the rights back or does it get sold to the highest bidder? >.<
You know, because IMVU promises to not change anything about this money sink website and just want ad space (Which they already had). No way they're lying about that.
I'm glad to see that Neer and IMVU are trying to answer as many questions as possible and re-assure people..but no matter what this whole thing is freaking some artists out..which again I find comical considering this has already been going on before IMVU started helping out FA.
Keep in mind that this is HELPING FA stay afloat..so why is such a terrible thing?
They'll be back. It happens every time there's drama on this site.
I love Furaffinity, hopefully this will help with some issues we've had in the past..all will come to pass eventually. I appreciate that Neer and the FA team are working to improve FA and not let it fall.
IMVU is huge, I find it to have been a smart move..imo.
The answers and statements they've been giving are literally stock PR answers. Everything is fine, nothing is changing, and we care about you, the users. It astounds me that anyone can see these as genuine.
I'm literally only still here basically as a business card. This is me, now go look at my real accounts.
Questions aren't really being answered. They're being danced around and sugar coated and from what it seems Dragoneer has made himself a reputation of not being reliable, or an honest person.
Because near as i can tell, it's been a week since the initial announcement of selling out, and almost THREE MONTHS since the Actual sale was finalized.
This is business. The community frankly has 0 to do with it beyond being a metric and a commodity.
Even if they HAD for some reason done that, nothing would be different. At all. I can guarantee it. The deal would still be under non-disclosure because that's how business is done and we'd still be getting the same corporate stock answers.
The only thing that business truly listens to is votes from the wallet.
Business is business. If anyone really thinks that user input on this would have or can make a difference, they're naive.
i hope this works out well.
What I would like to see is a timeline: what's the plan for FA over the next 6 months? The next year? Would IMVU be seeking to monetize it like Deviant Art? Would they consider operating a print-on-demand store (which would create an income for both the artist and IMVU)?
Secondly, how does the acquisition affect the relationship between their business partners in the real world? Best Buy, Walmart and Paypal are all involved with IMVU generating an income; is it still business as usual, and do they expect it to be so for the near future? Does Paypal even know? This is the sort of thing that would make them go Full Utah on a person... does that change when it involves this much business?
The real problem will come to surface when the normal clients of Imvu (a population that largely consists of 14 year old children) and their families notice that the company is pretending to merge their community with this literal hole of pornography.
Right now they promise that they will not touch anything. But they refuse to show the contract, so we cant really trust their promises. It wouldn't be the first time that Dragoneer deceived us all.
IMVU, in order to protect themselves from what is obviously going to come, will have to insert restrictions to the adult content. Perhaps a Premium membership or just plainly banning adult art.
Dragoneer claims that IMVU bought the site for 20,000 dollars with the sole and only purpose of getting money from furries getting into Imvu and the ads. However, they could have obtained THE SAME effect by simply buying Ad space, whose cost is only 1/20 of what they paid for the site.
I don't know any company willing to loose money like that, if they are investing not only in what they paid but in a team of programmers, then it would be IRRATIONAL to think that they only expect to get in return the meager gain of Ads and furries getting into Imvu. That would not even cover the original investment!
If FA and IMVU should grow closer together organically, that would be far preferable than an unannounced corporate take over.
Also, as a PR note, the more you tell us there is nothing to fear, the more people are going to fear. Unless you're going to go into length about something, it just seems like a blow off if all we're told is that all is well, everyone is friends, and nothing else.
Either way, I'm hoping FA can be brought back into fandom control at some point. Barring that, I'd prefer to have at least a greater understanding of the relationship. What is Dragoneer's job, precisely? How is IMVU getting around agreements they made so that they can continue selling IMVU credits in stores while also having FA serving up all the lovely things that can be found here sans age verification (beyond the honor system bit upon registration).
1. Is an electronic DMCA notice all that is needed or must it be mailed/faxed to IMVU somewhere? I've heard conflicting accounts on this.
2. In regards to NC-17 material and art theft, how are artists supposed to be aware of our adult material stolen if NC-17 access requires money on my end to enable on IMVU?
Feel free to clarify if any of my assertions were incorrect. Thank-you! :)
I'm sorry I can't give you more definitive answers than that, but I'm hoping that's at least something that will come in helpful to you and other users.
What about the furries that are coming FROM IMVU that are stealing art???
An artist I watch is STILL waiting on tickets for a user that just signed up after finding this place through IMVU and stole and did a shitty MS Paint job to their artwork, another artist's work, and using other users fursonas/commissioned works.
Also Brett should make an FA account (without any admin or power status) to either help talk to the community and see concerns, perhaps an agreement or easy link way to place imvu products of suspected stolen art under watch or a list and crossed referenced with the original submission
If not Brett, then someone high up who can take the time out of his/her day to speak to everyone and take questions, comments and idea's.
Would probably help with everyone's worries too. Well done!
Thanks for the malware answer though, that was a concern of mine.
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/online/imvu.html
Because all i am seeing is customer abuse, false banning, false claims of fraud, non working systems and customer support on the level of Comcast.
People, IMVU is bad news for all of us, it's that simple.
I think google is quite possibly the worst thing to use in such regards. I have comcast as well, though I have never had any problems with their support. You will always have that percentage of people making claims in a negative way in any business. What you should look at is how big of a percentage those claims actually are versus how many users they have. ^^
I'm just going to wait and see what happens, moaning about it now is kinda hopeless. FA was legally already sold, you can't petition against something like this. It's done and unless IMVU breaks their contract all we can do is just site and wait to see what happens. >.<
Noone ever got paid. The case is 'still in mediation'.
Furries seem to love their drama, that's for sure.
Me? I ignore everything as it never really affects me
Also, it is never helpful to ignore stuff one might not like or to think "meh. won't affect me anyway". It is recommendable to voice one's opinion and express constructive criticism if available or else anybody else might think "Well, we can do what we want, everybody agrees to what we do since no one complains anyways."
But everyone knew Dragoneer was a crook. But he was OUR crook. I'd rather have OUR crook than THEIR crook any day.
We don't know the half of what's going on.
And you want to believe everything that's just on the surface? Kinda sad.
So basically your only argument is "are u really gonna believe them?!?!". Kinda sad.
Drama more, dramawhore. <3
fix'd
k
k
Kinda showing you how broken and extreme it was :T
People in general on the net freak out like sheep, though, I think they are acting more like lemmings right now.
It's furs who are the one's starting all these rumors and conspiracy theories >.< People on the net are the worst kind of people.. I swear...
That’s a better question for Dragoneer.
THEN WHY HASN'T HE GIVEN A STRAIGHT FORWARD ANSWER THAT HE DOESN'T TOTALLY CONTRADICT OR CHANGE 5 MINS LATER??
After two years, with multiple visits from electricians and technicians, and even more planned in the future, this thing is as non-functional as the day it was bought.
The moral of this story is while business people may act with the intention of profit, that doesn't mean they have any idea what they are doing.
Hmm all dem journal post.
Still seems strange...but eh. I guess stranger things have happened.
IMVU buys FA to get ad space. These ads introduce furries to IMVU for "fucking expensive", between the purchasing and the upkeep.
Do you REALLY expect ANYONE to believe that IMVU bought a website with the intention of LOSING money?
Spoiler alert: Companies do not acquire other companies/websites to "be nice even though they lose money from it".
IMVU bought FA to MAKE money. IMVU is not going to get any new users from their new ads that they didn't get from their old ads. This means that IMVU did NOT buy FA to get ad space, and they didn't do it to "be nice". IMVU is going to do something ELSE to make money off of FA. Simple fact. Every time you say "All IMVU wants is to help us and get ad space", you're making yourself look more and more untrustworthy.
That's like saying Pepsi is going to pay my bills and give me a salary, and all they want in return is for me to drink Mountain Dew (Which I already do). Not how it works.
It pisses me off because Neer tried to get a sympathetic ear and donations and cried about spending his money to keep FA afloat so either 1. he's lying about it being profitable 2. He's lying that the tax bill is for FA (he changed his stance so either way he's lying) 3. IMVU wouldn't buy a failing site unless they planned to change it, so either it's profitable or they plan to change it to make it so.
> http://imgur.com/PA4obhJ
Oh I don't know, maybe if you read anything put out since the announcement and used a functioning brain then maybe you would know this already lmfao
Whether or not what they say will happen will happen is a test of time, but the information is there.
That explains a lot.
You mean other people's artwork being sold for in game credits...
But thank you for saying what I guess what was gonna be said...
"If the user want to take em down, file a DMCA"
Edit: I'm tired and some of this is gumbled sorry.
I worry the inclusion of these ads will cause many more furs to turn on adblock, as FA will no longer me 'safe.' Then fewer artists will actually feel buying adspace is even worth their time.
However some of these answers are just half truths, which say nothing. It sounds like a damned politician giving answers which say nothing concrete.
I can however respect the fact that the CEO doesn't want to give us a straight answer, it's his job after all to protect their interests.
Still, what's the end business goal here? If someone pumps thousands of dollars into a website. I would assume they want to get some revenue out of it, even if only in the long term.
If that's done through advertisements that's fine by me. Honestly FA should have had some ads on the website already for a very, very long time. It's unrealistic to think a website of this size can survive on charity and 'good will' alone.
The art theft issue sadly will always remain regardless of which website the art is hosted on. Even if you leave FA and remove all your art people can still steal it and use it elsewhere it really makes no difference.
Bottom line, I feel that on the whole this was a smart decision from Dragoneer, and I hope we'll soon start noticing performance and reliability increase on the website.
Most of all I'd just love to see this whole debacle be over with so we can all get on with our lives.
So why are you buying us instead of one of the "many, many, many diverse audiences" Maybe because Dragoneer is the only one doing simply everything for Money?!
"During discussions with Dragoneer we found FA had huge potential, a passionate community, and a dedicated leader, but was struggling with financial and resource challenges. Dragoneer has the vision but was not able to devote his full attention to the site. We realized that working together we could help FA get the support it needs to make improvements. When talking to Dragoneer about the possibility of an acquisition, every one of his requirements were based on wanting to make sure the end result was right for the FA community… this is when I was convinced that FA will have an amazing future. "
So Dragoneer Sold us out! He started talking to IMVU not IMVU with him! Instead of talking to his users he Sold us towards IMVU and informs us after the deal!
"IMVU is making a commitment of money and resources to FA that far exceeds what FA was able to achieve on its own. I believe FA will grow to being a self-supporting community if it has the focus, people and resources to make customer experience improvements. With IMVU’s support and keeping a hands-off approach to how FA is operated, I’m looking forward to a rewarding outcome for everybody, most of all FA’s community."
That said after all these Donations...nuffsaid
"Other than FA having a lot more resources 100% dedicated to improving the site, it shouldn’t mean anything different than before the acquisition. You will see advertising, but FA is being run by Dragoneer, not by IMVU. Oh, and FA won’t need community donations to survive, so no more pledge drives. :)" And where did the Donations went? didn't Fa already had Advertising before IMVU?!
"We really believe that FA knows what is best for the FA community, so we have committed support both financially and through other resources. We want to let it run independently and see it thrive."
If so he wouldn't sold us out!
"IMVU plans on supporting FA changing the site to make improvements, but FA is run independently, so changes will be determined by Dragoneer and team."
Which lend us to individuals like the Zidonuke accident...
"What is IMVU doing to help furry artists who have had their work stolen?" and "What's the best process to protect my art?"
"Stolen content is bad for everybody in the community, from the author that sees their hard work being exploited to the community that misses the opportunity to connect with the author, explore their other works and even make a new friendship. IMVU wants to ensure that people only share content they have the rights to share. If stolen content is posted on the FA site, the process is likely to stay the same. If stolen art is posted on IMVU, the legal owner of the art can file a DMCA Takedown notice."
Which the owner only can see if the pays IMVU (Paywall someone?!)
"So not shitstorming and screaming drama = "white knight""
No, calling others that raise valid concerns and show evidence calling shitstormers or Drama Llama = White Knight
k, thxbye
They totally should, people are making profit off artists work by putting some pic they found here on tshirt and calling it original 3d creation.
Companies do that all the time.
That's actually why I'm not so pessimistic about this than many. 'Neer has a history of failing to improve the site, in no small part because a) the funding is unpredictable and not that great, and b) FA has been run and maintained by amateurs and volunteers, including some people who should never have been allowed to do so.
If IMVU provides a stable source of funds and more oversight, as is likely, then we're probably going to see much more progress on all the eternally stalled stuff. If only because they might now actually hire professional programmers to work on the code, instead of Yak being the eternal bottleneck on everything; and so on.
Also as far as I heard yak is still on the team. Same with the rest of the horrid staff that has done nothing to really help the site but hinder it. Also why would a company be instested once again in something that is known not to make money but instead beg for donations ? This has no logic , sites don't just invest in something that is failing do they?There has to be something more then lets inject your site with 3rd party ad's.
But, mark this: that you or I, random people on FA, can't think of any, doesn't mean there isn't any.
Except for the fact that basically no one wants anything to do with IMVU and would rather use Second Life because it is better and doesn't look like it was made by a little girl.
Will users still be able to purchase ads? If so how much? Will ads be the same format?
heres a short statement from Fender
So your takedown system is still "fuck off until you have the law on our ass". Even though almost every other gallery site out there (this one included) uses an internal takedown system to deal with plagiarism/theft.
Like seriously, I can't think of another reason why IMVU would want FA, since the answer as to what IMVU gets outta this exchange doesn't seem like a very smart reason to buy it. Granted, I don't believe in altruism, especially from a money-oriented business, so that whole line of "We just wanted to help" doesn't really fly for me.
-shrugs-
I mostly use FA for socialization and making a bit of extra cash, so this doesn't really worry me terribly. I don't think my art is good enough yet to be stolen, but I can sympathize with those who are worried about it. I don't ever plan to use IMVU, so if I find that my art is being sold there (probs won't be but who knows), I think I'll just close up shop here and delete all my art. No one would miss just one artist anyway, and I can talk to friends elsewhere, so no big deal.
I do hope some good can come out of this, regardless of my pessimism. I just get antsy when it feels like I'm being jerked around.
Like any place, be is DA, Weasly, SL, etc..
They can take parts of your art and use it in advertisement as a privileged of hosting your work...
They don't take it for commission but as an enticement to others as the art acts as a way of "See this pretty? We have more like it over here, click and check it out~"
Some may argue this isn't right, but its them trying to lure more revenue to the site, which in turn means more money coming your way.
Well, that's the basic idea of the move.
I am sure you have seen advertisements for SL, IMVU, DA, FA, etc...
The art isn't made by the companies themselves, but it showcases possible artists from their site.
In a 3D client, like IMVU and SL, that runs on user generated content, they are going to show things users have already made on there.
IMVU probably bought FA because it currently is the largest furry art site/community in existence.
And they are no dumbies. They know that to be a furry cost money.
They want a piece of the pie.
Advertisement, especially a site they own, can help track potential money to their site, especially now that they can prevent other 3D avatar communities from putting up ad space on their property (example, SL).
Sounds shady but its a practical business move to ensure they get more viewing.
And about the artwork...
Honestly...
SL has stolen artwork from here.
So does DA...
Tumblr...
Facebook...
etc...
IMVU is not something new or foreign to thieves, they can be found anywhere.
Only reason people are getting worked up is IMVU's AP pass to get to content minors are not allowed access to.
But IMVU cannot simply give AP away, because they have in place in order to make money by selling prepaid cards at say Walmart, Walgreens, etc...
Which won't allow them to have free AP which makes it easier for minors to obtain.
But while IMVU/Dragonner try to think of a way to solve this without IMVU violating the terms and agreements with their other business ventures, IMVU users with AP who use FA are offering assistance to find the stolen work and help file DMCAs to take them down.
This is no new thing, IMVU furries have been offering to do this for years, but people ignored it giving IMVU no mind, but now with them purchasing FA, people suddenly have pitchforks over events them themselves have neglected and let run rampant.
But is their system wrong?
Nope.
DMCA is a legal thing.
They are doing it accordance with DMCA law.
People are moaning because they have to do something.
They have to fill out a form, they have to provide proof (which should be no issue at all), and so forth...
Complaining because they actually have to have some effort.
Yeah, getting stuff stolen sucks.
I've had it happen to me on IMVU.
So I filed a DMCA.
And they are profiting?
How?
But selling credits?
Most users direct people away from buying credits from IMVU and to buying from resellers.
Simply because its cheaper and supports the devs of IMVU.
Or is it AP?
Which IMVU has in place with it other business venture like selling of pre-paid cards at stores that will not allow them to have easy/free adult content access (such as Walmart).
So in order to keep money going, they adhere to those guidelines.
IMVUs main revinue is off of VIP and Name Changes.
They sell AP for a one time fee.
Now they added in marriage packages and shared room packages to increase further revenue.
But its not credits in the catalog from buying art.
Credits are nothing to them.
They are generated and they can generate endless amounts at any given moment.
Credits only have value to the devs who sell them off to resellers for actual money.
In fact they have openly stated credits have no monetary value whatsoever to them.
And you seem to be insinuating all the content in the catalog is stolen.
Majority of it is legit honest work.
I am not defending the thieves of IMVU...
But I am not so bullheaded to think that a company that large can police every single thing submitted.
If you want to prevent theft you have to do your own due diligence.
You need to check things yourself.
And if its AP content and you are that crazy over it, buy AP, a $20 USD investment of only one time, is a small thing to pay to protect your art.
Much cheaper then filing a complete copyright/trademark on something.
And for those who don't want to do even that...
Go to the forums on IMVU, many users are willing to check for them.
Hell we have journals here on FA from IMVU furs who are offering that right now.
You are looking for something to burn.
IMVU in this entire case is not the thing to burn.
Go to the individuals who stole and burn the,
But do not in your ignorance blame something IMVU themselves did not do.
And yes it a legitimate process but they have the system set up so they can hide the very image your Sending the DMCA in by simply changing the name changing the image and and waiting for shit to blow over for a while. only to later change it back and start profiting off it again.
the problem exists in that they could quell all this with a simple flag method that locked those items from being sold while they are under investigation like say many other sites do. they have a flag this item, in the markets on the website whatever. Then the person has no access to it while they check the information offered when they find it legit they remove the item and then they can properly ban the offender.
There are much easier methods then DMCA that they could easily implement. For one allowing them to fully have all alteration of an item including the image the title the keyword they are allowing the thieves to hide things much easier and quicker. Granted most do not know they are suspected yet.
but the very fact that Moonriver came on the forums and told us about all these practices it warns us just how much the system is severely flawed.
They cannot change the PID, Product Identification Number.
That is ALWAYS present.
Even if they hide the product you do to the page to view it and see it hidden, that link with those numbers at the very end? The ones after the "=" is the PID.
As long as you have that, they can go in and remove the product.
So them "hiding" it doesn't prevent you from removing it.
Because IMVU's DMCA department can see any product, hidden or not if you provide them that PID.
And there are sites dedicated to showing hidden products in the catalog, btw.
http://imvu-e.com
They have services to allow you to see hidden items on an avatar, a dev's hidden items in their catalog, etc...
Many ways to help you out.
And in the past?
A flag would put a hold on products...
But it was abused.
People in the past hated furries and would flag furries endlessly for animal cruelty and whatnot...
Screwing the dev over.
And some people did it to endlessly harass a dev simply because they didn't like them.
Continuing that would just hurt IMVU.
There are many devs on IMVU who use it for income/daily living just like artists on IMVU.
So you ask IMVU to screw those innocent individuals over?
They went to the DMCA filing system because it used to be clustered up with everything else...
You'd have DMCAs with help tickets for transferring credits, harassment, etc...
So they set it to one department and streamlines it with the legal form.
With a formal DMCA Takedown they covered themselves and had individuals who were trained for that and only that working on it.
IMVU did that because it was the best thing for them.
I don't know if they have a better method yet, but that's why they do this.
And I am not familiar with Moonriver.
I am, however, familiar with IMVU because I am there, actively.
They do stuff just like FA does stuff I can't stand.
I voice out about it on there.
I know how they work.
I made my first IMVU account back in 2005, so 10 years of experience right here.
Is it perfect experience?
Nope, but most of the ney-sayers are people who haven't been with IMVU.
Haven't experienced how they work, what they do...
And are commenting on speculation with no view from the inside.
I'm happy that there are people within the IMVU community who are willing to help (God knows, they're fantastic for doing so), but they're not responsible for someone else's stolen work. That's supposed to be IMVU's job and with a reputation of not doing anything about it... -shrugs- Other sites are just as bad, but at least they let you access the stolen art to file a (if long and complicated) report, without having to pay to do so. I don't think people care about the adult content of IMVU past this point. In fact, it seems most people here don't seem to care about IMVU at all, if the comments are any indication. (Again, working by what I see.)
Also the last line of your comment totally sounds like it's an artist's own fault if they don't use IMVU to keep an eye on whether or not their art is stolen. Just saying.
Cause no one should steal...
But I say it because if someone fears it so much and do not take the precautions, like a one time investment so you can easy watch it...
Or ignoring when others are going "Hey art over here stolen... Check it out."
Then that is the fault of the one who was stolen from.
The initial theft, not them.
Not following up to stop it, but instead turning a blind eye or deaf ear til this sort of thing blows up, yeah that is your fault.
I know not all are aware...
But many have heard these things in rumors for years and decided to ignore or neglect it til now.
You can blame a murder for the act of murder say family...
But if you hear the screams of that family and ignore it til the act is over, you are at fault.
Extreme example, but still the same point.
I just know first hand IMVU has wiped stolen works before, but their catalog is too huge.
People are constantly submitting.
Hell, I'll make one product and go to submit the next literally 30 seconds after the last and there is already a 200+ item ID number gap between them because of how many items are pouring in.
Yes, it would be great for them to watch for their rep, but unless they can hire a team who is so far and diverse in knowledge of art, whose only sole purpose is tracking theft....
Not going to happen.
And even that setup won't happen, because too much manpower would be needed and its not cost effective.
Personally I would probably hide til the murderer left so that there would be at least one person alive to tell who did it, since I don't think that not stopping a murderer means you killed your family. The murderer did. That's not neglect, that preservation of your own life. But that's it's own ethical dilemma.
And frankly, why would you wanna put money into a business only to have to do all the work of policing your art yourself? If you're not allowed access to all of it, there should be someone on staff to handle it. Plain and simple. That's like someone stealing your wallet then making you pay to look for it from a pile of stolen wallets. You shouldn't pay the person; you should call the police. Unfortunately, there're no police to call in the IMVU situation. -shrugs- I guess if people feel like they didn't sign up on FA to work with IMVU, they can just leave; it's just difficult for those who use this site as their business, ya know?
Or get out of the place and seek assistance?
My example is hearing it and doing nothing.
There are ways of going about it without endangering life...
I said it was an extreme example, but there are many ways to view it.
This is how I am portraying it.
Art theft is lesser, still bad, but no risk to yourself to report it and stop it.
If you hear of it, you have no risks to yourself to defend yourself and put an end to it.
And honestly, if things were so easy to be policed by staff and whatnot of every single site...
The DMCA, Digitial Millennium Copyright Act, would of never been established.
There would be no forms of it drafted legally, etc...
Because it is online there are no true police to the internet, people have to look out for their work or hope someone else is.
Sad reality of the world.
IMVU is getting the shit for it because its in the limelight and uses the DMCA and being punished for something they simply can't go "Oh, here you go, here is access."
Or doesn't have the setup that other sites use, such as Amazon or Ebay, which are far larger then IMVU and its, last I checked, 48 employees (on staff paycheck).
And its not wrong to pay a one time fee to view something/use something even when you are doing the work yourself.
You are paying access, like you would to get into a club, VIP lounge, etc...
You don't have to be there, you want there and to see what is there, so you pay.
After that, they don't know if you are there to simply look, take notes for competitors, or look to see if you were stolen from.
Yeah, I can get why it sucks, but I also understand see why they charge.
It stinks, but this is how they have to function.
They are trying to think of a go around, users are trying to assist...
But this is not the fault of IMVU.
People steal.
Its a truth of the world.
To avoid digital art theft...
There is only one way to avoid it.
Never upload ever.
Moment you upload it is back saved on serves, cache in different spots...
Its out there.
Good people won't steal, but there are billions in this world and sadly some of them are going to with ill intent and others no ill intent.
I guess we'll just have to wait and see and hope that IMVU doesn't change it's mind about us being our own independently run site, as it now has full right to do.
I am not supporting theft.
IMVU isn't either.
They have their DMCA to take care of theft and act upon it usually within 24 hours.
If you read the ToS over they even state no works are to be used without express permissions or rights.
Even further stressing it when someone signs up to be a developer on IMVU (having them sign yet another ToS and stresses in bold no stealing.)
In order to dev as of now, you have to have VIP, which costs $10 a month.
Even if you make profit from your stolen works, you have a credit pend of 2 weeks.
Within that two weeks, people can flag, report, DMCA.
Those will reverse the funds and people will be refunded, you will lose profit.
If after the fact?
They take them from your account, they literally pull the credits away from down the line...
So if you made say...
100k from one stolen piece of art and caught a month after that profit...
DMCA is made, art is removed from catalog, you are forced to refund but you just sold to a reseller?
Your account will have the credits taken away from you, and sometimes the reseller who will be notified who they were taken away by..
Probably will be you into a negative (which bans the account til the credit balance is returned to a 0 or above in credits).
On top of that, resellers use paypal to pay...
They will revoke transaction and blacklist you, reporting you to paypal for fraud.
There is a system in place to prevent them...
You'd have to keep paying 10$ to make a VIP account (btw, 100k is about $35-38 by current trends to a resller)
And to be frank....
Furniture like that is some of the lowest making income in the shop, so you'll be make made 100k tops...
So for a 20+ profit, not really worth the effort.
The highest theft is those who texture rip from skins, hairs, eyes, etc... and sell those off..
Oh, and meshes.
Where we disagree: I'm saying they're certainly condoning art theft by having this gallery block available. Making a person pay to see whether or not their art should be there IS accepting the fact that they may be selling stolen works and doing nothing themselves to police it. It's up to the artist, essentially, to go through and look for their own art and, with the current system, they have to pay to do so if that art is mature. Which isn't right. It's not something that should just be accepted, and certainly not something that I, if I were running FA, would want to be associated with. This is just my personal opinion.
No one is saying that they can't freely sell things on their site. It's theirs, they can do what they want. But if they don't have someone on their staff who's job is to check to see if the art on their site is stolen (almost no one does, I get that), I think it's only fair to give access to both galleries to the public so that they can check without having to pay for a site that they don't want to use/pay for. That's what I'm saying. I'm talking about the works that cannot be easily accessed to submit the DMCA for in the first place. I'm saying their system is inherently flawed and it's something that should've been taken into consideration before the merge was made final. Sorry if that bottom line got lost somewhere in there.
As you said there are massive amounts of subscriptions going up, they get banned on one account they turn arround create another and start doing so again. Artists should not have to sit on IMVU day in day out watching to see if any of their art is being posted. These are copyrighted items that they the company IMVU are profiting on.
That's how the system works on IMVU...
And how it effects the "thieves"
Only ones who keep doing it are the UFI/blackmarket people...
But they work with RL cash and are getting around $20 for a virtual hard dick... and 10+ for sex poses...
Massivly gifting those out.
They make serious profit so the 10 VIP is no issue to them.
Those are IMVU's biggest concerns as far as bad devs go.
No, but it is yesterday, and isn't really wanted here.
I do want to bump through some of your responses
Why the Acquisition?
[...]
During discussions with Dragoneer we found FA had huge potential, a passionate community, and a dedicated leader, but was struggling with financial and resource challenges. Dragoneer has the vision but was not able to devote his full attention to the site. We realized that working together we could help FA get the support it needs to make improvements. When talking to Dragoneer about the possibility of an acquisition, every one of his requirements were based on wanting to make sure the end result was right for the FA community… this is when I was convinced that FA will have an amazing future.
IMVU is making a commitment of money and resources to FA that far exceeds what FA was able to achieve on its own. I believe FA will grow to being a self-supporting community if it has the focus, people and resources to make customer experience improvements. With IMVU’s support and keeping a hands-off approach to how FA is operated, I’m looking forward to a rewarding outcome for everybody, most of all FA’s community.
I reply to your answer with a question that I asked to Dragoneer earlier, but wasn't addressed:
1) Why Sell to IMVU?
IMVU's offer and their genuine desire to leave Fur Affinity as a completely independent group is what convinced me that this was the right thing to do. They offered us a budget and financial assistance to improve the site, while still leaving us independently run.
I take it that your other responses lead into why IMVU was happy to buy in. It does lead to this, though: What's your escape plan for FurAffinity?
If IMVU, say, a year down the line, decides the partnership isn't providing them with the things they expect, and they decide to pull funding, what happens to FurAffinity?
So I ask you: If, somewhere down the line, the partnership between FurAffinity and IMVU does not work out as hoped, what happens to FurAffinity?
I admit, it is a gloom and doom question, but we're talking two sites that have a decade of history each -- it's fair to ask.
"And what does it meant for us furries?" asked by @DirtyPaws
Other than FA having a lot more resources 100% dedicated to improving the site, it shouldn’t mean anything different than before the acquisition. You will see advertising, but FA is being run by Dragoneer, not by IMVU. Oh, and FA won’t need community donations to survive, so no more pledge drives. :)
Can I hold y'all to those last four words?
A LOT of users seemed concerned that the ads coming will be trying to auto-install spyware/malware.
The ads being delivered come from a top advertising provider for websites (Google ad network) and are screened thoroughly as part of their review process to ensure no spyware/malware is included.
Google doesn't have the best track record in not serving Malware, Potentially Unwanted Programs, and other... bluntly, crap in an ad. I don't think that really allays my worries all that much, even if it does send business my way.
It does, at least, satisfy my concern about the general type of ads: Context based ads that generate random links on hovered words is an easy way to get users to distrust you. By not going that route, I thank you.
"What is IMVU doing to help furry artists who have had their work stolen?" and "What's the best process to protect my art?"
Stolen content is bad for everybody in the community, from the author that sees their hard work being exploited to the community that misses the opportunity to connect with the author, explore their other works and even make a new friendship. IMVU wants to ensure that people only share content they have the rights to share. If stolen content is posted on the FA site, the process is likely to stay the same. If stolen art is posted on IMVU, the legal owner of the art can file a DMCA Takedown notice.
A concern that was brought up is that some of the content that an artist would want to report is hidden behind what is effectively a paywall -- one would have to sign up for the service, pay to verify that they're of age of majority in their jurisdiction, then be able to search for that content.
Case in point, one user has done that, and taken screenshots using a generic search term to give people a way to see if they should bother going through those steps.
In that screenshot set, I was able to identify eight artists that had their materials posted there, but because I don't have actual links to the content (nor would those eight), there's no easy way to report misused content.
Will there be a way for users to obtain access to see what is in the marketplace without having to effectively buy their way in?
Also, I'm sure you are aware of the IMVU credits resellers, which makes this a bit more interesting -- If someone has been selling a wildly popular content pack, full of content that they do not own rights to... What happens to that person? Do they get to keep the credits, but only get a slap on the wrist? Or does something more drastic happen?
Thanks for your time.
I believe it was Strype, as someone else posted it.
Nobody believes you.
You have lied in the past, You have screwed people over, You've taken donations one month and the next turned around and sold the site you got donations for to another site, with which you never told anyone in months after the deal concluded, while toting and claiming "transparency". And that's not even counting the numerous, endless shady, scummy things you've done in the past for which there is a HUGE FUCKING LIST FOR.
You're a liar, and a scumbag, and it will take more than just fucking words and prettying up the site just a tiny little bit to restore any faith in FA or its staff or anything that any of the staff says.
How do they explain nearly 300 allegations against IMVU filed with the Better Business Bureau in the past three years, stemming from issues such as irresponsible, bullying staff, unfair account deletions/suspensions, and numerous documents accusing IMVU of siphoning monies from users, then systematically closing the accounts after the fact and keeping the money?
Is this why revenues have dropped from a high of $40 million in 2010, to $2.9 million in revenues as of the last fiscal quarter?
Thank you.
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/16099821/
seriously do people see any sign of change as a sign of the coming apocalypse here?
like some of you guys could stand to close your computer and not be on FA for a few days. stop complaining about this free site not doing what you want 100% of the time.
is not the answer to the question
"What does IMVU get out of this?" asked by Michichael
The answer needs to pertain to IMVU's monetisation plans. How are you going to make FA more valuable for IMVU? What methods are you going to employ?
Lol no, please do not compare our masterpieces with the ugly and lazy and rather oudated 3D models that 14 year old children post over there.
Specifics, we want fucking specifics.
inb4 they finish breaking down my barricade
inb4 I am silenced
http://imgur.com/a/oAtuI
http://i.imgur.com/2sREC.gif
I'd like it to be true but I'll be very surprised if anything comes of it. After ten years of doing nothing it's hard to believe they have any recourse.
It's very easy to troll someone/something.
Oh wait, that's right. Cause it's strype. Anyone up there with him would get VIP treatment. The "little man" has to take the long road like the veritable peon they are.
I'm not even sour towards popular artists, just peeved that less popular people get treated like lesser beings.
Weasyl's about to get a whole lot more popular!
http://imgur.com/a/oAtuI
http://imgur.com/a/oAtuI
http://imgur.com/a/oAtuI
http://i.imgur.com/md5jjxj.jpg
STOLEN ART IS ALREADY APPEARING FOR SALE IN THE IMVU STORE AS IN-GAME POSTERS.
I REPEAT- COPYRIGHTED ART IS ALREADY BEING SOLD BY IMVU WITHOUT ARTIST PERMISSION, SCREEN SHOTS HERE -http://imgur.com/a/oAtuI
class action suit when?
Look for yourself: http://i.imgur.com/md5jjxj.jpg
Come on guys, be civil about this.
Its kinda hard to twist a direct quote.
Really guys if you keep going on about this I'm going to get tired real quick.
assuming he meant something without any textual evidence is "twisting words"
which is a bit like saying "if anything, that creep grabbing your breasts is a testament to how attractive people find you"
I'm on your side. Just don't go spreading lies. It just makes you and the people trying to change this whole shebang seem uncredible.
What does matter is that dragoneer did admit that art is getting stolen, did nothing about it, and stated that it was "a testament to how popular it is." Dragoneer's intent is irrelevant- The copyright holder is the one who chooses what is acceptable use for their art, and neer nor anyone else can decide what is and isn't acceptable. That is the issue here- The owner of this site does not own the art within it, and he is not taking any steps to protect anyone's copyright but his own.
IMVU users have been stealing our artwork waaayyy before the sale of FA.
the items for sale are user created content, "BEING SOLD BY IMVU" is misleading and unnecessarily inflammatory.
Artists need to take the necessary steps to report these IMVU users to the proper authorities and if need be, file a DMCA claim. While easier said than done, its what people need to do.
IMVU cant remove things they arent aware of.
This link has been posted a million times, I have seen it and have gone through it. It does not prove in any way that work is being stolen because of the buyout.
I wasnt asking if work had been stolen at all, thats pretty damn obvious. I was asking that user to back up their their fallacious statement about how the buyout has caused some sort of furry art theft spree, which is ridiculous.
If someones going to make a ridiculous claim like that, Its their job to back it up.
However, since youre just going to spout nonsense too, Ill give you a way to back up your words. At least then youll have a reason to act arrogant.
IMVU doesnt list dates of submission publicly so you have to use the product ID. The product ID can be found int he address bar in the URL of the procts page.
Heres a suspicious product. Its product ID is 28056456, that mean its the 28056456th item ever submitted to the catalog. Now here we have thenewest item in the "tops" section. Its ID is 28933832.
The difference between them is 877376. Now that really doesnt have much bearing on its own but when you take into account that IMVU getsroughly 7000 items created daily (and those numbers are probably exaggerated considering IMU is pretty dead these days) that only adds up to 630000 which is an estimate for items submitted over three moths time, which is of course, is when FA got bought.
While thats only one item it suggests that, like I said, there are plenty of submissions that predate the sale of FA. If you can prove that what your claiming is correct, Id be more than happy to listen, but untill then I am simply not buying the fact that this sale has had any significant impact in the levels of art theft.
Your turn. Prove me wrong, please lol.
That aside, while I appreciate you taking the time to try and inform me, it doesnt change my original post.
As someone who has been a victim of theft before, I can understand why people would be upset. I also personally question why 'Neer would make this decision considering the circumstances. I think it was a pretty stupid decision to be honest based on my current knowledge of the situation.
Did I ever say we should be happy? Did I say we should roll over and let it happen? No, so please, dont paint me like I did.
When it comes down to brass tacks, the only way that this is going to be solved is if artists take the necessary actions. Nobody owns the artwork on this site aside from their respective owners. Therefore, legally, we as a community hold majority of the power here in getting this aspect of the problem solved.
The capabilities of both IMVU and 'Neer only go so far in this situation.
It is the same as any other situation with art theft on the internet. A bunch of hoops, with the artist doing all of the leg-work.
Am I concerned? Yes. Am I upset? Yes. But Im not going to sit here and let people make inflammatory, sensationalist posts that serve nothing but to stir the pot and spread misinformation and discontent. It is not productive, it is not helpful and it is not going to help this community come together in the way that it needs to.
http://kobitate.com/fa-exodus-helper/
You know what, I'm actually not surprised this is a thing anymore. You were made for each other. Have fun.
In my opinion, this journal is half-truth and half-lie. Like a glass that's filled 50%.
"IMVU is making a commitment of money and resources to FA[...]With IMVU’s support and keeping a hands-off approach to how FA is operated[...]I believe FA will grow to being a self-supporting community [...]FA will have an amazing future. [...]rewarding outcome for everybody, most of all FA’s community"
Excuse me, how is suppose pumping money into FA bring any "rewarding outcome" for IMVU to sustain "hands-off approach to how FA is operated"?
"Other than FA having a lot more resources 100% dedicated to improving the site, it shouldn’t mean anything different than before the acquisition"
This is half-lie, because of usage of shouldn't (among other wording) - shall they not get "rewarding outcome", they'll have hard time to keep "hands-off approach" forever.
The question then is left - do you believe in comments on IMVU's forum, in history of IMVU as a company and do you trust them, despite that all odds rather show they will ONLY LOSE money.
It's not a total lie, it's a half-lie and half-truth. Because it tries to not talk about the future either because of hidding something or because they do not know themselves. Entire aquisition doesn't make sense. They could just make partnership.
The devil lies between the words and what they do not want to tell. Unless of course, a for-profit company is really doing charity here. I have hard time to believe that.
The lie part is underlined above, with key-word bolded. Promise is promise, but they're careful to not be held accountable shall they suddenly change their mind. Hard to blame them specifically for that, otherwise they'd be charity.
personalty i am not that afraid of a company buying websites, even if they do try to get something out of websites many can still be good
DA is a good site except for the fact it is restrictive
BUT for this site
your
"
SITE NEWS/POSTING RULES
1) Keep posts civil, constructive and polite
2) Keep discussion on topic to the post at hand.
3) Treat your fellow posters with respect.
"
rules are what everyone is afraid of as in the past you could get away with a lot on this site
and hiding the first comment, that probably said "dildos" was not a good idea as it plays right into the fear that content will be restricted
i am mostly pointing out that that is one problems i have seen that now seems to have a point behind
Some are worried about monetization and/or gross alterations to our little sub-society here. Some are worried about IMVU's reputation. I'm worried about (among other things) industrial scale data mining and profiling. We're diverse, and we have a lot of reasons for being upset to choose from.
i did not bring the art theft thing up as i personalty think that it happened before FA was bought and now we just notice it more
Also I dont think telling people to not be jerks and to have a healthy discussion is out of line at all. Maybe, theyre tired of the shit storm too you know? Im definitely tired of people piss poor attitudes in these threads.
then they are trying to censor things people say against them, not just random points that mean nothing
so be "polite" and "respectful" to your new overlords... (no :mwahaha: like DA)
Seeing as how this site is now property of a company and not a private owner any longer, do not expect me to believe that they will just stand by idly and crap out money for FA. Its a ridiculous notion and we aren't stupid.
Businesses exist for one reason: money. There is no other reason to have a business. Businesses do not give charitably unless they get something in return ie. a tax break, profitable favors, on and on.
Unless you guys are willing to post the actual contract in full with a clear paragraph that states that IMVU will not make changes to the site, your words are what they have always been, untrustworthy.
As long as i have been on this site promises have been vomited at us of amazing changes to come. About how improvements were always so soon to be here. THE SITE LOOKS EXACTLY THE SAME AS WHEN I MADE MY FIRST ACCOUNT!!!! It functions EXACTLY the same as it did when i made my first account. It never changes, so why the hell would i be even remotely willing to believe that what you are saying is true. What have you given us that offers any kind of credit to this drivel we are being fed now.
Yes the site is sold and money is there! Any time a donation drive has been run, the money has poured in and the changes never came, the money just vanished, large sums just going poof. Supposedly spent on gear that would not have taken anywhere near the level of funds donated. So don't try to feed me a lack of funds story because that is garbage.
Right now the community is standing on the edge of the cliffs of truth and you guys are dangling by a finger, praying we take what you say as truth and pull you back on solid ground... Why don't you give us a reason to do so and open it all up for everyone to know the full extent of what you have done. Your actions affect livelyhoods, they affect peoples lives in massive ways, so why don't you guys actually show us why we should jump for joy at these potentially ruinous actions.
Clear the fog... Or expect the community to fight the storm...
We think that by supporting FA they can build a better experience and bigger community and make something more valuable for IMVU, FA and the furry community in general.
don't worry, they have plans to monetize us.
Seriously, though, it would be easier to migrate.
I want to see if they will actually change, but as soon as a pay feature comes up im gone. This site hasnt done anything for me other than make me hate some aspects of the fandom so it wouldn't be a loss on my part. But for those who think there is still good on the horizon i want to try and get them answers.
I expect chat rooms to come first... then IMVU users will start coming here and posting IMVU content, furry or not.
FA:U will have IMVU booths every which way and IMVU users will start assimilating into the community.
It's going to be weird. Maybe not potentially ruinous, but definitely weird. And different.
This whole thing has been like a huge Trojan Dong and they are all waiting for the hubbub to die down so they can spooge out and make a freaking mess of things.
inkbunny had a system for that in the site
I ment they have something for commissions built into the site
I do see how that i said could seem like that though
https://inkbunny.net/ if you want to see it
and have a 2 tiered system were it is free to look at things but if you want the "new" features you have to pay
IMVU is a 10 year old community built entirely by customers for customers; it is sustained by creative individuals finding like-minded people online, who accept and encourage their creative, expressive sides, anonymously. At a high level, while the art form is entirely different, the guiding principles - inclusiveness, celebrating creativity, embracing diversity - are the overarching umbrella that unites the two distinct communities.
And then there is a paid subscription...that kinda does not match, in my mind, that is. A community-for-community model usually does not imply a VIP or special-users area that requires money...or did I miss something? o.o
"What is IMVU doing to help furry artists who have had their work stolen?" and "What's the best process to protect my art?"
Stolen content is bad for everybody in the community, from the author that sees their hard work being exploited to the community that misses the opportunity to connect with the author, explore their other works and even make a new friendship. IMVU wants to ensure that people only share content they have the rights to share. If stolen content is posted on the FA site, the process is likely to stay the same. If stolen art is posted on IMVU, the legal owner of the art can file a DMCA Takedown notice.
Doesn't a DMCA Takedown notice cost money to get filed, since its an offical thing? I am not from the states, so I wouldn't know. But from what I heared, you can't just email someone and tell them "Hereby I file a DMCA Takedown request"....urr, im sure it just doesn't work that way :)
So if I am right and it costs money to file...then that means that artists who find their stolen work somewhere, have to pay to get their rightful content protected? ...Pffh, economy...business men..., g'damnit.
Once DMCA counter-request is filled by other party, material can be made again available online and then the one which filled DMCA request have to go to court and sue the one that filled DMCA counter-request.
See here (www.copyright.gov/legislation/dmca.pdf)
And here http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/toGPO.....ubl304.105.pdf
Person that filles DMCA request sends a sworn-notice under penalty of pendury and can be brought into court shall that person lie in anything send via e-mail.
See the link above and read about this US law.
HOWEVER, despite it beeing free to send e-mail, you have to actually know every place where the infridged material is. Without AP access that cost money, you may have problem to view AP-restricted areas on IMVU shop, so in consequence, you may not see the material in first place.
DMCA itself does not cost money, it's just e-mail message and/or post letter to Copyright agent.
A court case WILL cost money however, in case you get DMCA counter-notice.
No. Filing a DMCA notice literally involves nothing but filling out a form letter/template, and emailing it to the service provider.
If you want a third party to do it (i.e. DMCA.com) then yes, it costs money. Lots of money. Because those third parties are scams. Charging upwards of $200 for something that you can do for free in under an hour? LOL no.
Suing, in the case of them refusing to remove the stolen content, costs money. But a.) a DMCA notice isn't a lawsuit, and b.) most places aren't willing to risk lawsuits, so they just comply when the form and proof is properly presented. (And even if you do end up having to sue, there are plenty of pro bono or "Pay if you win" lawyers out there. It's worth the extra work if that's what it comes down to.)
If you, then, leave out important information and get ignored, that's shitty but it's also your fault. Own your mistake and resubmit the claim with all relevant information included and you're good to go.
honestly the art stolen from FA was probably there before FA was bought and it is just now brought to our attention
i am trying to say that art theft is bigger than FA or the IMVU and is probably not even going to be impacted by this
If IMVU wants to be as respectful of their customers as they say they are, both on IMVU and FA, they should either let the artists take them down without making an account, or (what they REALLY should do) is police the marketplace themselves.
What will IMVU do if FA does not become profitable to them? If they shut it down, will the user base at least have warning?
On a separate note ...
Will FA still host user advertisements on the site as they have in the past? If they still host them, is the price going to change?
Time to start up a "let's buy out IMVU" Kickstarter....
lawl
Plus people pay more attention to links, reposting spreads the word.
http://www.bbb.org/losangelessilico.....view-ca-225868
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/online/imvu.html
In addition, why do your 'answers' here have so little to do with the actual questions that were asked?
"The AdSense network is considered family-safe, which means that publishers aren't permitted to place Google ads on sites which contain pornography, adult, or mature content. If your site has content which you wouldn't be comfortable viewing at work or with family members around, then it probably isn't an appropriate site for Google ads. Please note that we also don't allow AdSense for search (AFS) search boxes to be placed on adult content pages."
https://support.google.com/adsense/...../1348688?hl=en
Correct me if I'm wrong, though!
"The ads being delivered come from a top advertising provider for websites (Google ad network) and are screened thoroughly as part of their review process to ensure no spyware/malware is included."
.......... If stolen content is posted on the FA site, the process is likely to stay the same. If stolen art is posted on IMVU, the legal owner of the art can file a DMCA Takedown notice.
So in other words nothing. FA has a reputation for ignoring artists and out right siding with thieves.
I also think Dragoneer's argument of "You'll have to run this deal by every admin, mod, etc." was complete bullshit. All you have to do is schedule a meeting, run it by them all at once, and DISCUSS IT CIVILLY instead of just blowing it off.
1. They're too afraid of getting the ban hammer to say anything.
2. Neer got pissy and fired them all ages ago, but just kept their avatars on the list to keep us in line.
3. Because they're really are no mods or admins. They're all just Neer's sock-puppets.
And ew, my typos.
It's an exercise in complete ineptitude that FA has gone so long being so poorly coded and that the staff won't just hire a proper coder to do the work correctly once, or for that matter someone to set up their hardware properly once so they don't need to beg for donations to fix the mistakes they constantly make.
On the issue of playing favorites. I have plenty of close personal friends who have been banned because they spoke up about another users harassment or breaking the rules because the offending user was a friend of a staff member. I also know of many users who have had their art stolen and have struggled for years for FA to help them out only to discover that the thief is a friend of the staff.
FA is not in good hands, it never has been.
Fun fact : If you stay there, others will too, and the site will miraculously not be slow.
I trust then as much as i trust my country's governement (Aka: the most corrupt governement in earth)
32 pages of stolen art, and Imvu sells it every second, even when Im writting this.
However, back to the point, it is unconceivable to think they are gonna spend 20K initial + costs of improvement + host cost only to get a few bucks from the Ads. That is simply illogical, its obvious they will have to change things if they dont want to loose money.
http://i.imgur.com/md5jjxj.jpg
Note: normal users can no longer have access to mature content.
I've formed my opinion, you're all whiny bitches that can't stand change.
I think for the most part you at IMVU cater to kids, but for the most part we at FA are not children, and we worry when we hear about deals like this that don't directly spell out whats in it for you, the investor. Realize that we've been dealing with broken promises here at this site for a long, long time and that will go a long way to connecting with the community. We're all looking for the catch, whatever it is. If FA is going to make you cash, just say so. It might put minds at ease.
At this point we need more than just servers. We need FA to be more than just reliable. Many popular websites on the internet are reliable, that doesn't count for much. There's a lot of work that goes into keeping a high-traffic website online, but that is work that, frankly, we expect to just happen behind the scenes. What we need are features. Please, for the love of all that is holy, have Dragoneer or your software team or whoever needs to do it add features. We need folders. We need redesigned user pages. We need a retooled uploading system that doesn't butcher quality and downscale. Just get creative with the code. Look at any other comparable site like Weasyl. FA needs to be the best again. Not just the biggest.
These are things we've been promised for years. Hell the last broken promise for a new site beta was only 3 weeks ago. After you purchased it. So really, technically, you've already let us down. Please stop doing that. In the end we'll thank you for it. I promise you.
This.
It is business, they own it now, get the hell over it. If shit storms up, get the hell out. They addressed everything professionally and have every right to do anything they want.
As users we do not own the site and we have every right to leave. If you are gonna bitch, get your bitchy ass and your bags and walk it all out the door. no one wants to hear it.
if they do something you dont like, stop using the product, simple as that.
And i think you are wrong. All this negative publicity might actually change something. It sure as hell will discourage some people from using this.
petitions signed by enough people who brings traffic to this site would get a lot of shit done now that a money making company owns the site. OWNS THE SITE.
Adult things can be done now to solve problems.
they told us as a show of good faith and everyone shat on it like untrained dogs and preschoolers that still need diapers.
they would have been better of saying nothing... but eh,..
You dont go to your neighbors house and berate them over the choices they make about the flowers they plant just because you have to look at them.(if someone did they are a terrible fucking human being)
You dont own something just because you use it, when an owner makes a choice with their property, you deal with it. Crying about the choice will get you nowhere.
The reasoning for a persons choice is also no ones business. I can just imagine judge Judy tearing some ass through people being upset that an owner of something did what they wanted with their property. They dont have to answer to any of us until they touch our property illegally. we posted here so we are all on a sort of lease.. they can use our stuff to advertise their site with non profit and without changing it. we all consent to this by uploading.
that thing i am sure no one read,.. the TOS or AUP... yeah,.. go check that out. those are the only things anyone need be concerned over. their other choices are not your business
hell they could nuke all our galleries and change the site... hell if i care what these people do. they own it, we lease space for free... dont see the excessive need for everyones worthless bitching after they pretty much addressed the most legitimate points
Nice.
nothing to really worry about. this Kool-aid is delicious.
FA was never really a business to begin with, but now that a business owns it, it is now part of a business and you can address you problems with the owner given your problems mean anything.
They have stated everything professionally as they can and they didn't even have to.
Given that Dragoneer would never tell you these things in the past, i find it reassuring to even see them continuing to try and try as a business to calm these bitchy children.
If the Tos changes, we will be notified. Keep your big boy or girl pants on and see that nothing is different. if enough people have a problem with previous management they can file the grievances to the company and maybe even sign a petition to clear them and replace them now.
Things have changed for the better an no one sees that. If you don't like the way things WERE you can NOW change them with proper paperwork because a company acts professionally most of the time.
See it as an opportunity to change things the way they should have 8 years ago when things went to shit.
File your legitimate complaints with the company.
If you have a problem, take it up as legally as you can with the company.
I am sure you as a user have your foresight for a potential problem... but you neither own the site nor have right to ask why an owner wished to sell their property.
Brown nose... psh,.. further from the truth. I have a foot in every site just in case shit hits the fan.
If you dont like the business practices that were made before the company bought out fa, get the documentation required, pile it up and petition against the continued involvement of past ownership.
Things can get much better now that they are able to... slinging mud around isnt gonna change it.
We as users have no end hand in what an owner does with their property. sure we can all bitch and moan, but being as negative as possible is gonna just make the end result negative to... so yes please be as big of an asshole as you can be and lets see what that gets us all in the end.
Of course people shouldn't expect these protests to result in anything substantive, since the sale is done and IMVU is here to stay. Even petitions you mentioned won't change that, because we don't have any base to prevent companies to buy things like websites we just frequent. I guess petitions against this are even less helpful than speaking one's mind in the open.
Concerning the donations, they were voluntary, yes, but not charity. People spent money for a certain cause. If the cause fails because the money wasn't enough, that would have been unfortunate but ultimatively one of many probable outcomes. But if a sale happens shortly after collecting donations people have every right to be angered about it.
But not only donators complain. There are other people too. So what are they concerned about? They are concerned about FA becoming a business without previous warning. If something substantial as this happens, that means, there might suddenly be many terms and conditions applying to people having an account at the website in question. Terms and conditions that might retroactively apply to all users without them knowing. For example:
Just imagine IMVU would have expected members to pay a monthly subscription fee. Then we suddenly would be notified that there is a fee we own a company many users never heard of before and we would have to pay for the past three month since the sale happened, even if we would close our account immediately. Obviously that hasn't happened so far but do you really know what general terms and conditions apply to you having your account right now? Are you really saying you are cool with anything that might be? Well, I'm not and as you can see most other people aren't either. We still know next to nothing about the whole issue and so far don't get any more useful informations.
Also I have no complains against IMVU yet since I don't know them and they haven't done anything wrong. I complain about the way this whole fiasco is handled. Users should have been notified of the purchase beforehand, not afterwards. Knowing that instead of visiting a free website you have an account at you now unknowingly have been a customer of a company you never heard of before for almost three months isn't really great news for anybody. So if people are upset about that that is more than reasonable.
Also, would you care to explain the things that turned out for the better? I just remember two improvements since I am a member, one is that we finally got the search function, the other is, that we can edit our comments (at least for a short amount of time), which is a quite recent change.
other than these site improvements. yes, petitions and such do work if you go about them the right way. of course a petition must not have a personal bias and more of a professional one. like... someone compiles a list of reasons why a specific person on the staff is not doing their job, or not maintaining it at a professional level and have several instances with other people that are legitimate and you have something.
nothing changes,.. but its funny to watch people scramble
While in the real world a petition concerning serious topics might succeed, an online petition concerning mods or admins probably won't, unless there is a ticket system for reports. In any case else it might end the same way most protest-mails end. In a spam filter. Or being responded by a bot. Same outcome, nothing useful to achieve.
Concerning changes... There will most certainly be changes. Even if the ownership doesn't change, the community and individuals will. Some will settle down and accept it, some others will leave, some new will come. Right now the way this issue is handled determines how the community responds and that will most likely be by changing to the one or other.
How do we keep all of this porn the fuck away from the 12 year olds?
True, true. I like to think that that majority of us are really no more sexual than the average-Joe, but we're simply far more open and honest about it. So we just throw it out there for everyone to see! Because be yourself! (ﾉ◕ヮ◕)ﾉ*:・ﾟ✧.
OY VEY.
Are the artists that have been stolen from going to be compensated for the profit that IMVU made off their work?
IMVU has a history of terrible customer service, ridiculously long waiting periods for reports to be dealt with (if they're not ignored entirely), and many thieves are never punished and go on to become repeat offenders. It's the reason I left IMVU in the first place. If you can't take care of your own community, why should we trust you with ours when it's already been put through so much at the hands of a ill-behaved owner?
Shouldn't you be focusing on bettering your own site before you get your hands into another and try to exploit us for more users?
Why should people have to pay, break through poor security, or search for a loop-hole to be able to see if their possessions are being stolen so they can file a take-down request if they are?
Now watch as they go completely unanswered.
Google ads aren't allowed on sites with adult content, so when you get your ads pulled don't be surprised. You're gonna have to find another ad service or form of revenue.
These sites should be reported since they do not abide by google's rules.
Google ads may not be placed on pages that contain nudity or pornography. Examples include, but are not limited to, pages with images, videos, or descriptions containing:
*pornographic images, videos, or games
*pornographic cartoons or anime (hentai/ecchi)
*nudity
I don't see what the whole issue is, there's a slight change about FA, and every time, a mass of people want to leave, rage quit(but don't actually, they only want to cause drama and a pain to everyone else that wants to stay)
I haven't seen FA change since I've been here, sure, maybe the upload policies might have, but every art site goes through this. If IMVU says they just want to help FA along, and they don't want to change things, what's the problem? I say drama queens and kings should just create a channel or site for themselves so the rest of FA doesn't have to deal with it every time something about FA comes up. It is getting quite tiring.
I've never had any issues with how FA is run, and I will keep using FA until it either dies, or I do (thinking the latter will happen first)
Seriously, everyone, relax.
>>>/tumblr/
http://imgur.com/a/oAtuI
Why is it that the only time people seem to care when it's their own crap being stolen?
And as someone who has used IMVU for a long time, I can tell you that they look after their community poorly and in a completely inept way.
So why should we allow them to look after our community if they can't even handle their own?
http://imgur.com/a/oAtuI
This is all just drama mongering that has cropped up from IMVU's purchase. Furries are scared that something's going to change (despite reassurances they won't :3) and are lashing out at the easiest target (preteens on a website selling content that isn't their's)
Imvu is a company, not charity. If they were charity, I would believe them.
Just move on.
because seriously this is exactly how I feel about this whole situation
No matter how you social justice warrior at the keyboard, its never, going to change.
So get up, and take it, or leave.
And what about user generated ads, you know the ones MADE by artist so they can get a little more noticed so they can maybe SUPPORT themselves?
But no. We do have a few user generated ads, mostly the top banner ones. But yeah, no, you'll never know where that cash goes. And inb4 servers or whatever because that was always the excuse and now he can't make that one anymore.
But just in case I'll be on guard waiting for any underhanded tactics before I have anything to complain about.
This whole situation is just so bizarre to me.
http://i.imgur.com/md5jjxj.jpg
I've never seen a website run so poorly in my entire life
is this even for real?? is he, like, 5 year old???
idk if im gonna get banned for this but dragoneer is just a big fucking joke.
The real problem will come to surface when the normal clients of Imvu (a population that largely consists of 14 year old children) and their families notice that the company is pretending to merge their community with this literal hole of pornography.
Right now they promise that they will not touch anything. But they refuse to show the contract, so we cant really trust their promises. It wouldn't be the first time that Dragoneer deceived us all.
IMVU, in order to protect themselves from what is obviously going to come, will have to insert restrictions to the adult content. Perhaps a Premium membership or just plainly banning adult art.
Dragoneer claims that IMVU bought the site for 20,000 dollars with the sole and only purpose of getting money from furries getting into Imvu and the ads. However, they could have obtained THE SAME effect by simply buying Ad space, whose cost is only 1/20 of what they paid for the site.
I don't know any company willing to loose money like that, if they are investing not only in what they paid but in a team of programmers, then it would be IRRATIONAL to think that they only expect to get in return the meager gain of Ads and furries getting into Imvu. That would not even cover the original investment if wr also consider theya re now paying Dragoneer to "manage" the site and new coders to i prove it, which means, an even bigger investment,
(I'll wait couple of weeks and see where this goes. After all, this can't go worse.)
If you are unhappy with the site's outcome ( I am ) Than leave. Put your concern for yourself beside the door and go to another community. Believe it or not, the alternatives are flourishing with new users and lots of new art.
But it begins with artists. I know it's tough. Finding clientelle and getting them to move on is hard, just do it for the good of all of us.
Stop beating the dead horse, and stop sitting on the fence.
The real problem will come to surface when the normal clients of Imvu (a population that largely consists of 14 year old children) and their families notice that the company is pretending to merge their community with this literal hole of pornography.
Right now they promise that they will not touch anything. But they refuse to show the contract, so we cant really trust their promises. It wouldn't be the first time that Dragoneer deceived us all.
IMVU, in order to protect themselves from what is obviously going to come, will have to insert restrictions to the adult content. Perhaps a Premium membership or just plainly banning adult art.
Dragoneer claims that IMVU bought the site for 20,000 dollars with the sole and only purpose of getting money from furries getting into Imvu and the ads. However, they could have obtained THE SAME effect by simply buying Ad space, whose cost is only 1/20 of what they paid for the site.
I don't know any company willing to loose money like that, if they are investing not only in what they paid but in a team of programmers, then it would be IRRATIONAL to think that they only expect to get in return the meager gain of Ads and furries getting into Imvu. That would not even cover the original investment!
"Stop feeding us assumptions and platitudes, and maybe we'll change our attitudes."
Can we just start chanting this in the comments or something?
That you don't remember sowing what you now must reap.
Premium account to access mature content......... $19.99
Fee for selling/buying comissions........................$ 5.99 each one + $10.99 if comission is mature rated
Access to chatrooms..........................................$2.99 per hour
ENJOY THE NEW CHANGES.
#1 When was the initial proposition made? Further, why was the proposal not put before the community to see if the community felt it was in it's best interest?
#2 Why was the community left in the dark about this sale for over 2 months?
#3 If this was "for the best of the community" why hide the full language behind an NDA?
#4 Why is it, that for all this talk of being "more transparent and honest" with the community, things just become more and more opaque?
#2 So we could not do anything about it. Also, Transparency.
#3 Because he know that If we know the real terms that were agreed everyone will leave FA in less than one minute after reading them
#4 Because Dragoneer thinks he can deceive us as much as he want.
I think the primary questions on people's minds are
1. What is in it for IMVU? This entire thing is coming across as pure kindness/charity at this point, which is suspicious in the business world, and since there are no claims of pure kindness it suggests that there is motive. Either this is a poor business decision, or there is something that all of us aren't understanding in here. Some clarification would be great, because most of us don't see FurAffinity becoming profitable without things like adding subscription fees, overwhelming the site with advertisements, etc. (I personally keep adblock disabled on this site because the ads are community related, but i'll block this site's ads in a heartbeat if that changes)
2. What will happen to FurAffinity should it not become self sufficient/profitable within a year, two years, etc? Will it be sold off to somebody else? Will it be dumped like many other company's side projects?
3. Is IMVU going to somehow allow FurAffinity users to actually see all of the user created content available on IMVU without paying for a specific membership? It's difficult to find and DMCA stolen intellectual property without actually being able to access it, and it doesn't make sense for users from one branch of your company to be stealing and profiting from users from another branch of your company if it can be avoided/remedied (and it can... if some changes are made)
(An user with premium account took these screenshots revealing immense ammounts of stolen art)
http://imgur.com/a/oAtuI
http://imgur.com/a/oAtuI
Rant edited to be more level-headed, less profane, and less explosive.
TO IMVU: READ THIS, OR BETTER YET, LISTEN TO IT!"Three days after the announcement that Fur Affinity, the largest and most important center of commerce and community for the Furry Fandom, was sold to a non Furry company without our consent or consult, I am very proud to see outrage and recognition of betrayal. To have undermined the artists and creators of the Furry Fandom without a mere mention before the sale, and to have doddled around without telling anyone until two months after, is such an egregious and downright vile offense to our respect, intelligence, and especially our livelihood that as each day goes by instead of this decision getting clearer and clearer it gets more and more baffling the more we attempt to comprehend it.
The Furries of the Furry Fandom are right in their rage, their anger, their feelings of being trampled. We see through the smiling platitudes being fed to us by who knows anymore really. The expectation that we take these reassurances on pure faith leaves us more distrustful given the history of our faith in the announcements of this site, and these reassurances fall in direct conflict with the past actions of the company that now claims to own the medium of our livelihood; the gathering of our most independent Fandom. And though I am proud, very proud, to see just how easily we are seeing and even piercing these flat assurances that nothing will happen, everything is normal, it doesn't affect you, don't look at the pink elephant in the corner... It seems to go amiss as to whats really at stake here; as to what larger "big picture" impact this sell-out has introduced to the Furry narrative. This Fandom has been asked a question. This is a question we would inevitably be asked, and a question which will ripple through all corners of the Furry world across
SoFurry, Weazyl, Anthrocon, Further Confusion, your local furmeet, and right down to you, your future, and your conscious.
The sale of Fur Affinity to a non-Furry company had prompted the whole of the Fandom to answer this: "Will this Fandom, the one truly independent and free flowing Fandom, declare and at all costs maintain 100% control over its soveirenty and keep this Fandom of Furries by Furries for Furries one in which every Furry has the opportunity to be a meaningful actor within their Fandom. Will we commit to keeping the gap between producer and fan non-existent and maintain a Fandom which includes difference, normalizes the fringe, and embraces the outrageous. Will we keep a Fandom which harbors the downtrodden outcast of the satus quo? Will we assert that we as a Fandom are the only ones who have the right to set the course of our Fandom and determine the culture of our people? Or will we trade that in; accept the meddling of outside companies who want to capitalize on our accomplishments and in the process destroy our independence, govern our Fandom for us, and create an impossible gap between the fans and our 'parent companies'. Would we do this in exchange for glitzier web sites, cheap mass produced standardized apparel and even suits, and an Anthrocon three times the size, but brought to you by _______ who will take the income from admission and there will be no charity. At least, that is, for the short time they can engineer a fad till it crumbles and we become an unprofitable inconvenience and we are trashed and left to pick up the shambles and start from square 1.
We as a Fandom must have an answer to this question, because what happens here on FA in the coming months sets a precedent for the next decade of the Furry Fandom. IMVU being a small company, if we let them succeed in their goal of turning the Furry Fandom into a money making machine for them then there will be bigger, stronger, more formidable companies that come knocking, and for them we must have an answer too. This is the next phase of the Furry Fandom in which we must defend what we have built, and further build an infrastructure, an organization that will effectively let us as a Fandom deliver our answer in the loudest was possible.
We have built a powerhouse of an economy solely on art. We normalized homosexuality 30 years before its time. We created a Fandom where anyone can contribute and their
status in the community is based on the merit of their contribution. We are not beholden to a parent company executive behind a desk deciding what gets shipped, made, and who sees it. We do not rely on the creation of a team of people or one man to exist, and once it stops being produced, we disappear. We are a fandom of a IDEA, and idea of acceptance, equality, and self discovery held within the representation of ourselves in an anthropomorphic world. Whats at stake...is the loss of all that, of our identity, and the Fandom as WE have built it."
SOVEREIGNTY OVER PROFIT!With all due respect mister Brett Durrett, We the furry fandom are not willing to have you here.
*Puts on a monocle and a top hat* Dear pardon me sir, but I believe it would be more politically correct to change the TOS, COC, and AUP before you attempt to enforce new rules. The fandom as a whole seems to be very volitional at the moment, and as such it may have unforeseen results that would only ... how do you say it "Add fuel to the fire"
PS: This comment follows the COC, TOS, and AUP, as of the time of posting, also this comment has been conducted in a civil manor with the intention to point out the possible conflict within the original journal entry by means of advice.
either they're lying or they have no clue what they're talking about as sharing artwork with others typically has the opposite effect as it lets other people know that the artists exists. A lot of the people I watch I found out about because of this (posting commissions they paid for in their gallery for example) and I probably wouldn't know about these artists otherwise.
Unfortunately in these situations the artists don't even get free advertisement because, well, their names are pulled off of any images up for sale.
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/6603906/
Journal belongs to
>professional
AHAHAHAHAHAHA-
No.
Just because an artist gets a lot of views doesn't necessarily mean that they are "professional".
So, nothing will actually change, since changes were promised for years and never delivered, and all who dare speak out in opposition will be permabanned. Got it.
It seems he lacks good judgement.
So... maybe if we're lucky?
Can we make that...not an option?
Any way to kick him off his position as being able to do these things again?
1. That Acturus guy does not have ownership of any part of FA, he sold it all to Dragoneer in 2007.
2. Adspace on FA will still be available to individual FA users at the same rate as before.
Still though, I am concerned over the fact that IMVU is hella strict on adult material and FA is not. There are folks at IMVU are hoping that this acquisition means maybe IMVU will be lax on their rules as they don't see it fair. Plus when the parental units get wind of IMVU owning FA (after learning what the hell a furry is and seeing smexin' everywhere XD) and complain to corporate, something will be done about it. Either FA will have a similar system to IMVU with paying for adult artwork and age verification, or the porn will be banned. That second option won't happen, or if it does Dragoneer will no longer be FA's admin.
Personally, I am not against FA charging for premium services as a means to bring in revenue. It is finally going to be a real business, and people would rather pay for useful features of the site like folders or groups than to donate for a $250 wall sticker or whatever to keep the site going. This site relied on donations and volunteer work far too long and it got very little accomplished. We're being told nothing will change except for the betterment of FA which is whatever IMVU execs deem betterment to be. It pretty much is now a "wait and see" sort of situation for us users. Hopefully this new approach will yield the results users have been asking for several years now. If not, I'm more than happy to frequent other places.
They can if they wish, but as long they make it like FA where non-members can't see anything but the general clean stuff, and only users above a certain age can see the adult stuff, then parents can complain all they want. IMVU doesn't have to and they can't be sued against anything they do otherwise. Because if the case I can tell you FA would have done it years ago.
I along with a group of friends are the owner and staff. We can run the site well enough for a while, and to make sure we can pay for upkeep and new hardware as needed. We chip in with our own money which we put aside from work for that particular purpose. To make a bit extra to help we like with FA can offer the users ads to get their product you know out there.
Once something like let's say trouble tickets become to much, we can offer people in the community a spot on the staff for the purpose, but it will be done so for free.
Should things turn for the worse or it prove to much as the site grows to keep up with money from the works and ads only, we can open up for donations or make a patreon where all the money go to the site only to help with things.
That way things not only keeps being paid, but we can stay a non-profit company and site.
I've volunteered IRL for two non-profit organizations. They brought money in from more than fund drives. There were events, sponsors of local businesses, benefit auctions, t-shirt sales, yard sales, etc. all to get enough money to not only help the organization's members and the community but to keep those of us running things from having to pull money from our own pockets to pay for such. It's all about balancing a budget and FA was unable to do that forever so here we are. IMVU wants to sponsor FA for adspace then so be it.
That isn't my concern. My concern is will this company who invested in FA by acquiring it be able to let FA run independently without any censorship. They themselves are invested by companies such as Best Buy. Best Buy is known for their anti-gay politics. If someone there doesn't approve of FA's material and wants it gone or put behind some paywall like IMVU, IMVU has to comply and pass that on to Dragoneer. it's either "do this or we'll cut your funding".
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/201.....o-chick-fil-a/
Can google it for more.
I'm just saying how that's a easy good way to stay a non-profit site/company.
If you want to make money for the site somehow and still stay a free website, you could make things like Cons or even sell merchandise like T-Shirts, Cups, Keyrings, small figurines etc. Seriously if IMVU starts doing that for FA to bring in some additional income, I highly doubt the majority of the site will hate it, if Neer had even started doing it I can bet people would have liked the idea and he would never had issues with money like he did/do.
People make all of this sound much harder than it is. The hardest part becomes dealing with coding for the website itself and the risk of hackers/DDOS attack.
No. Large businesses have a reputation to uphold and a wide consumer base to satisfy. These responses were likely discussed by the IMVU team, who then gave the information to their PR team to write it in a way that separated their statements from being too emotional/ aggressive/ protective/ etc.
They sound vague because they are. Companies thrive off vague statements that say what they need them to, phrased in a positive, non aggressive way.
It's not a personal choice, or the boss being shady. This is a company handling a dispute like a company needs to to protect themselves from a very dissatisfied user base.
In fact, you will likely never hear direct statements from anyone at IMVU. Everything a large company does needs to go through its PR filter to make sure their works follow the company image and so that "nobody fucks shit up"
Just a bit of perspective from someone who is used to doing this "behind the scenes" work and seeing how these things are handled.
I'm sure the company thought long and hard about this acquisition, and would not have made it if they couldn't gain revenue. There is no reason to distrust them at this point in time, so the most defensive I will be is being more careful about watermarking and updating my TOS to better protect my work in a professional way.
If we want to play "professional artist", then we are gonna have to start doing the research and accepting the boring legal stuff too.
And on that subject, I wanna know how they plan to try and monetize the site. Cause as revenue ain't gonna work. About... What... 4-5 ads per page, if that? And that's not taking into account the number of people using adblock. They'd have to inject something that directly charges users to end up in the black with this site.
And like any consumer driven site, they depend on us to thrive. Which is why improvements are sought after. (To keep initial customers and to bring in new ones). Not to say they are doing a good job at that- but this is the business model.
They do not pay us. We are not under contract to use the site, so we can't be employees. Is there something wrong with being consumers?
In terms of revenue, companies buy adspace on sites to reach an audience. They usually function in a dual system. If more than a few seconds are spent on a page where that ad appears, it is counted as having worked. Its reached its audience and gotten seen. In advance, some ads offer additional revenue when clicked on. So just by appearing on our page for a split second, they have advertised their product to you- a potential customer.
The furrafinity userbase is huge! That's why they want us. We are large in number, contain a wide demographic, and are constantly bringing in new people to the site. Businesses buy in potential- not results. They can't tell where their customers come from unless we come to the advertised store in suit ;)!
I hope this makes more sense, whether or not it aligns with your own personal views on the matter.
They are pouring a LOT of money into this site on the off chance that people will join their pay to play game and click their ads. A good deal of us can't even SEE the ads due to adblocks. So this is a lot of investment for a lot of maybes. Buying into potential is one thing but that potential needs to have decent odds of becoming a reality which, looking at the reactions of the userbase, seems unlikely.
Maybe someone will click ads and bring us in more money
Maybe someone will pay for IMVU services
Maybe someone will pay for the services required to keep an eye out for their art being stolen (you can't check what's being sold without an account complete with a paid age verification)
Would you pour your finances into a company that was filled with so much uncertainty? Most people looking to keep their business afloat wouldn't. There are just too many variables that could go wrong.
Yet nobody on IMVU staff seems concerned. They throw up broad general terms to pacify our fears like 'growth opportunity' and 'huge potential', dodging the questions completely and assuring us that someone who is apparently not on their payroll will be running the site they own (not totally sure if that's even legal in most parts of the world) completely independant of their rulings.
They seem very certain that this will be profitable yet they refuse to tell us how beyond those wide generalizations that only serve to make people more suspicious of their motives. I know that we, as non paying members, have no right to know anything at all about this but we are worried about how this will all affect us in the future.
HOW is this going to be profitable? Certainly not with a couple more ads. Those hardly generated enough to keep the site afloat before and now they are supposed to make up for the money that they are pouring into us? The amount of ads that would be required to make up for the monthly costs of keeping this place afloat would make the site virtually unusable.
Many people might be overreacting a little bit by jumping ship but there are just too many unanswered questions that staff is dancing around. Despite what they think, 'it'll all be ok' is not a suitable answer for 'what is going to happen to us', and it's things like that that are causing widespread panic.
So if I ever get any NSFW art stolen from me, the only way for me to check it out is through the shop, having paid for the age verification on IMVU after making an account, just to verify that my art was stolen, and then I need to write up a legal document and send it to let the guys know someone stole from me and they're making a profit out of it?
This is beyond fucked up. Why can't I just flag the content (if I'm allowed to see it, since I need a pay account)
An IMVU user contributed with their own annotated DMCA form on the forums: https://forums.furaffinity.net/thre.....=1#post5113216
"I'm sorry to report the favoritism theory is validated through this development.
From the beginning of the affair Piche claimed that a DMCA complaint (not an electronic version like most other companies accept, mind, but a physical deadtree edition) was the sole way to take stolen artwork down. But naturally, that only holds true for us lowly peasants! A-listers just need to PM Big Man Preyfar to get their product protected as shown here by example of his pal Strype.
FA, FA never changes."
How will this merger actually help the day-to-day running of the site? I don't mean in a general sense, I mean specifically. The biggest example I can think that I'd like an answer on is this:
There are trouble tickets backed up and unanswered from months ago (I know this, I have one sitting in the queue on an alt account that's been sitting in the queue since like October.) and that's honestly completely unacceptable. Are there going to be people "hired" to handle these things now that there's an actual budget? Or will it continue to fall by the wayside and be ignored?
also, and i will say it again, you FAIL, IMVU in allowing artists to search your ENTIRE gallery because of a stupid paid 'adult' account. you are only willing to allow the REAL artists to see HALF of what's stolen, because you can't be buggered to help out the people actually working hard for the content that fills your stores. and DMCAs? gtfo. you think people want to hand all their personal information over the internet to someone they don't know without a lawyer involved?
christ i feel like such a broken record at this point. but hey, FA is known for it's admins ignoring logic..
do you really think that people have all damn day to sit and flip through hundreds of pages of gallery to find their stolen art, then hours more filling out all the DMCAs for each one to get them taken down?
IMVU aside... what's happening with the 'hiring' of new admins for all the backed up trouble tickets? phoenix project? UI updates? no info on that? or did the pressure of people on FA asking what was promised to them too much and you had to deflect this to IMVU hoping the drama from the buy-out would make people forget those little things?
"Does IMVU plan on changing FA?"
IMVU plans on supporting FA changing the site to make improvements, but FA is run independently, so changes will be determined by Dragoneer and team.
"AAAND we add GoogleAnalytics&Stuff to FA so you can find everything that's on FA even on Google now!"
*locked account for guests*
Even if there are really bad happening right now -_-
Maybe in future if things go worse...
also anyone else get a bit of a chill how the CEO called the FA users "customers"?
A lot of people seem to think a business acting like say... a business, is a shady move. We are used to dragoneer talking to us like friends or at least acquaintances. If you step back and actually try and view them as a business doing busnissey things, they seem a lot less shady.
The thick of it is- IMVU doesn't give a crap whether we like them or not. They aren't advertising IMVU, they are advertising 3rd party ads like insurance and home rentals, that is paying THEM to market to the large userbase that FA has.
I think you should refund all of the donations before selling out.
Dragoneer's pocketsinvisible ghost servers nobody has ever seen and are located in an inexistent country.It amuses me however - IMVU has already owned FA for months now, and NOTHING bad has happened. In fact, the site has had nice updates to boot. IMVU isn't changing anything, but my god are people whiny bastards about it.
So let me try again...
"How cute. Art theft has happened both on IMVU and on hundreds of other sites"
Yes it has, I never discredited that. It's been happening since the dawn of the internet, and IMVU isn't the only culprit.
"F-list is a big cause, E-621 has a massive amount of people basically using your pictures as their avatars, et cetera."
However e621 and F-list aren't making money off of it when people used your picture as an avatar. IMVU is making money from the stolen art through there marketplace and virtual currency.
"But now people bitch about it as an argument against IMVU."
That's because, arguments, discussions, what ever tend to be centered around a central focus, which for the past few announcements on FA have been "Surprise IMVU bought FA" ... IMVU being a key topic, so of course people are going to bitch about IMVU, and IMVU only, in a series of journals about IMVU buying FA... and they're going to bitch about it because "Oh hey it has a metric fuckton of stolen art on it... and they just bought FA" I really can't break this down any more.
"It is merely another excuse to rant at a sale that hasn't caused us any actual problems. "
For this I reference what nelly said: "Three months is not a whole lot of time. It takes about a year before most acquisitions like this see serious changes. Most of the ones that fail take a year or two to actually be closed down. "
EXTRA BY ME: Why are people only bitching about this now? Simply because 95% of FA's user base, don't go on IMVU, so IMVU was an out of sight out of mind entity that most people had probably never even heard of or if they had, never visited... until it got announced "Hey FA got Sold to IMVU" which essentially held up a giant flashing neon sign that says "hey look at us we just bought you oh and did we mention we have a metric fuckton of stolen art?" so everyone instantly learned of IMVU or releared of IMVU as hey look at all the stolen art.
The only issue with IMVU that I currently see worth discussing is that art is stolen and still profited from. But, this is in another medium, and in no way really affects artists more than 'regular' art theft, where there is no profit involved. Simple terms? Doesn't actually affect us, so CBA'd.
There are other reasons why people dislike IMVU, like I said they're pretty shady, but I digress... As far as being a different medium, yes, I'll give you that, but that's kind of like saying "I scanned and uploaded the Mona Lisa to FA now pay me" or "Hey I got a txt file of <insert favorite book> and put it in skyrim, now pay me." Basically all they really do is take the image turn it into a .dds or what ever texture file IMVU uses, slap it on a 1px or 2px thick surface and sell it as 3D content. Not much in the way of original work in comparison to say drawing an interpretation of you favorite character from some random book... :/
I was calling you out on false-equivalency where Art Theft in terms of reposting on e621, F-List and similar did not equate to individuals making a profit off of other people's work.
I never said that art theft wasn't a major issue before now. It quite obviously was.
I've had my art stolen on other sites than IMVU, and likely somewhere on IMVU as well. Does that give me reason to start lashing out at IMVU in particular? No, that's dumb.
As for avatars on e-621 the way the site is made you pick your favorite pic on the site as it
The way I see it, Furaffinity has NOT made some of the best choices in how it handles money via donations. This has changed as of recently when they donated some of it to other websites, but in the beginning, it was a mess. I am not here to bash FA or its practices, just saying that mergers happen all the time for many reasons.
What I do think needs to be settled with is if IMVU does acquire FA, there needs to be a document / code signed that states that certain things need to be taken into consideration like art theft, collecting data from the site to use or sell, amongst other things. From what Ive read, there has been a lot of consideration towards FA user rights and expectations. What I will say, is with any site - you need to be careful what you post and put up. Once its on the internet, it becomes public domain - whether you like it or not. So, if you don't want a spider or bot taking your SKYPE name for example and selling it to a company that will target you to blackmail you or sell stuff - DON'T POST IT. If you wouldn't want your mother to know that you like "X" or "Y" - dont post it.
People think they have anonymity from persecution when its on a furry site. Being an admin for both Furriesxtreme and Pounced, I know what it takes to keep users happy and keep information safe. Yes there are going to be leaks, yes some may have issues, but if its taken care of properly and handled without furry123 threatening all over the pace and actually handling it like a normal person, things will be ok. There have been countless times as an admin, i've had furries yell at me demanding I do this and I do that to make them happy. What they don't realize is this as well as the services I admin are FREE SERVICES. Do you pay a subscription fee? - NO Then you really don't have a leg to stand on, and if the Terms of Service are written right, the website has full indemnity from what you post on the site.
So before all of you jump ship, complain and start an all out war, just remember: This is a FREE service that you don't pay for, its on the internet (and the internet is serious business folks), and just sit down and calm down. Its not the end of the world, its just an acquisition of another company - it happens every day in the real world, I assure you.
FA admins and owners - good luck with all of this, just please make sure you have all your duckies in a row when you sign this over - would hate to see FA turn into the bastard child that IMVU kills and heaven forbid we have to go back to VCL for art.. (Not many will know or remember VCL).
--Wolfpac
Just dont be upset when you sink a bunch of money into something and get disappointed if it goes under or gets sold. Its the cost of doing business and it happens, everyday. Your taking a chance when you invest. Unless you are a stockholder, shareholder or have a physical piece of the company with your donation, thats all it is is a donation. Nothing more nothing less. THe parent company can do with it what they please. May not be what you want, but they can - unless they are claiming to be a non-profit organization and then embezzle the money. But that is a different story.
The difference here is that Bad Dragon is obviously oriented mostly towards furries and is furry-owned, while IMVU is just... a curveball. They have some furry customers but really, what company doesn't?
Also, IMVU is in full control of FA's finances, which could be good (disclosure) or bad (withdraw funding).
i am so sick of people confusing programming with html and php
Also, other than say, embedded systems folks, what programmer nowadays can actually get by without knowing any php/python/ruby etc. you know, the WEBBY languages? I mean, not knocking the poor sods who maintain legacy COBOL systems and whatnot, but come on.
I can agree with you though that if that's the hardest type of code someone knows, it's indicative that they probably exist pretty squarely on the client-side part of the programming spectrum, which might not bode well depending on whether or not a website has serious structural problems, or just needs a spruced-up UI.
kryphosdrgn
nerosilent
ssj3mewtwo
surgat
xaerun
carmen
foxamoore
And let's not forget that the great Digimon Overlard is still listed as 'site owner' A Week after the announcement was made that he sold the site and is no longer the owner, and THREE MONTHS after the deal was actually finalized.
http://www.businessinsider.com/goog.....eir-ads-2015-2
These ads would appear under "Allow some non-intrusive ads" option, which is easily disabled by a checkbox.
These companies are paying to be listed under said non-intrusive option as a "pleeeeaaaase?". Bigger companies actually need to pay to appear on this whitelist.
Been using ABP for at least 5 years and is very much multi-platform.
I hope that's not the case.
I have filed many DMCA's, and no response. Do they have a set team to handle these DMCA's? Or is this on the backburner? This is the main concern for artists...
Also make sure you email dmca[at]imvu.com and dmca_agent[at]imvu.com or it will be ignored.
http://es.imvu.com/shop/product.php.....ts_id=22067666
What they don't tell people is that the process is long and expensive like any legal process in this side of the world. And they can keep selling the item for as much time before the final resolution comes. So, if you filled the form in X day, and you win the case two months later, they will be still selling the stolen pieces until the last minute.
They gotta squeeze as much money as they can.
So, no changes in the future?
Can I ask if anyone that was, you know, actually an outside force and not buddy buddy, or cherry picked was included in this Q&A. I mean we live in the time of multi, real time, chat programs and such. Why was this not podcast or live streamed to take questions REAL TIME?
This is typical drivel, carbon copied from any other corporate place.
Please stop treating the masses like children and giving the typical double peak/no speak. There are real concerned individuals and issues here.
We think that by supporting FA they can build a better experience and bigger community and make something more valuable for IMVU, FA and the furry community in general.
Wow, if I ever need a CEO, I'll know who to call. That is some grade-A deflection.
- Pour your capital into a dying business to help it grow
- Expect little to nothing in return save for a smidge more publicity for your own company
- Watch your company miraculously grow as a result
Times sure have changed!
This.
DON'T STEAL MY STUFF.
http://i.imgur.com/md5jjxj.jpg
goddamn it dragoneer
I mean I get what he was trying to say but that was quite possible the worst way he could have said it!
I don't know any company willing to loose money like that, if they are investing not only in what they paid but in a team of programmers, then it would be IRRATIONAL to think that they only expect to get in return the meager gain of Ads and furries getting into Imvu. That would not even cover the original investment!
Also the fact that any time dragoneer actually discusses anything with a member (even if they have solid information) he deletes all record of it, which shows he doesn't even want people thinking for themselves.
And what numbers are you looking at? from the ones I've experienced barely anyone has left. either you are trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill or I'm just watching a lot of people that don't give in to panic so easily.. really from the posts I've seen most are so absolutely tired of people pulling this crap over the littlest of things that they feel like smacking people.
That's happened? when? cause this is the fist I've heard about it. really sounds more like a tiger rock statement than truth.
Now, he HAS made good decisions, in my opinion, based on a professional and business standpoint (which comes in line with the whole PR thing) but it's not just about having someone talk for you! Actions as a manager speak louder than any PR department's words can. He's had people talk for him and normally for someone like me that would be good enough, but do you think most people on this site think with a business sense? Hell most people in the world don't think with a business sense. So they're not going to take these sorts of response attempts, they're going to wonder why someone else is talking for the one they're trying to reach out to.
Also the few that do see Dragoneer as someone with a good business sense try to give advice all the time, since they can really be of help and often want to help purely for the sake of improving the site (which is what IMVU claims to be doing), but then all Dragoneer does is hide and delete their comments or ignore them completely. He made a point about how "programmers will be hired" but there have been programmers wanting to work for free up until now that were ignored, and he certainly doesn't have the budget to actually HIRE programmers. Yet another example of not looking to his site members for the free aid they may offer him when he has the chance. Frankly, with a business sense in mind, any free work is better than none at all. If he wanted to make a move that would both be good for the site AND be good for PR he'd take on those willing to work for free, as those too dumb to see the bigger picture would at least be able to see that Dragoneer is listening to those on his website (even if it's only those smart enough or experienced enough to be able to help).
Again you have no proof and you are the only person I've heard talk about it so it's still a tiger stone argument. Also, use common sense. No one hides comments that are supposed to be helpful criticism or good advice. people block comments that are insulting, disruptive or vulgar. So if there was supposed to be helpful advice in one of those comments then the commenter needs to learn not to be so insulting. You don't keep someone in a live stream that's constantly telling you how you're doing everything wrong and you need to draw the way he tells you, so why do you expect someone else to let you treat them that way?
What's good for pr isn't always what's good for business. And haven't you ever heard you get what you pay for? Just because it's free doesn't mean they would be helpful. especially if the offers are coming from people who are constantly at odds with you. hell look at how hiring from the community has gone in the past! There's always some sort of drama that goes on there and people will still complain about the fact that he picked those guys instead of them and how they guys were a terrible choice. quite frankly it would be better to hire outside of the community as there's too much drama here to find any good candidates.
Making a bad business decisions just to placate those too dumb to see the big picture is a huuuuge mistake. it's better to just do what needs to be done and let them complain. eventually they'll go hoarse and may be willing to listen at that point.
I take it you've never heard a political campaign before?
Either that or you put so much faith in people that when someone offers you 20,000 dollars and claims there's no strings attached, you honestly believe them.
I prefer to go by a way of "innocent until proven guilty."
Can nobody get away with choosing to make acts of generosity anymore these days?
While my icon is telling IMVU to go away, I am on the fence to see where this whole thing goes... unless I'll have to pay. Then I'm gone.
At least you tried, but if they refuse to see it, then that's on them. It's not like you can do anything about it. Sometimes, it's best to do what's best for yourself than what's best for everyone, even though that may seem contradictory to my above statement. That also may seem heartless too.
Anyways, I might have misspoken in my previous comment. I believe this site is going to go down, but I am staying to see what happens. There is a small chance I might be wrong, but who knows. I go to a site that lies to its users as well.
Also, I wish I had a TARDIS and be able to travel throughout time and space. At least, I might be able to learn what really happened in the incident where I was somewhere.
We think that by supporting FA they can build a better experience and bigger community and make something more valuable for IMVU, FA and the furry community in general."
This first post here explains the reasoning behind this vague non-answer: http://8ch.net/furry/res/239815.html
How many plans you have to ruin artist that lives from this?
*thought the laptop in rage*
IMVU claims that Dragoneer will continue to 'grow' FA and it will be independant.
Dragoneer is now an employee of IMVU from my understanding of the arrangement.
What happens when Dragoneer isn't meeting IMVU's goals and they choose to terminate him? What happens to FA then?
In fact screw trust. This is business and there is no trust in business, and there shouldn't be. In the words of f'king Batman, "It's what you do that defines you". So go do what you're going to do to FA and get it over with so we can all define you and move on.
I only ask as that will mean he will now have this as his full time job and thus will treat it as such.
You're free to leave anytime, but coincidentially doing so when some drama arises here, and specially when everyone is overreacting, is silly and not called.
And that's specially for those that make a "OMG" journal and leaves in an epic fashion.
it's hard enough to have a mature discussion between users without people screaming at each other over opinions.
Also, if it may happen, what if said artist for a commissioned piece doesn't wish to file a DMCA request, but the commissioner would still like it taken down? What, if anything, could be done about that?
This is a prophecy
A revelation
Of your own destiny
You had a dream once,
A dream that you have sold
And now, my brothers
ANNIHILATION IS FORETOLD
...What? I wanted to sing this since 2012!
https://defdist.org/
HAPPY BIRTHDAY DRAGONEER!
So far, DMCA has been mentioned as the 'end all/be all' of every single issue people are worried about as if it were some sort of magical solution that never fails and works for everybody 'no questions asked'.
I still think the owner of imvu or his staff should make accounts (that don't hold any admin power) as PR & use it to help review and deal with stolen art by cross referencing with the FA versions/submissions and set up an easy DMCA or other means/guides to help take down stolen art on imvu, as well as something like a list for flagging down stolen art/original submissions
The furry fandom is known for tracking stolen art and informing the creators, imagine it with some quick admin help?
Also I think imvu only uses 3D avatars on the front of their ads if I remember, and saw one on YouTube today, still an avatar, would be weird to advertise our art rather than their chat system
Or the other journals from fender before for that matter, I'm wasting my time here
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m1g8.....3F31qgf56g.gif
Better to be proven wrong than be stabbed in the back, am I right?
And, yes, I use IE8 to prevent things loading. XD Helps me with my data allowence (7GB per 30 days, fyi). :3
I'm a sucker for the past. Hell, I remember when AOL had a browser and a woman with the refresh symbol on her dress as a logo... The 90s were a weird, wonderful time of shit hair and cardigians. XD But I'm rambling now... Least I don't need a browser to play Mahjong. :P
Tough on you if you have no money to register copyright or pursue IMVU legally.
It is for if they take a screen shot and your art happens to be in it you can't sue them for it
Tumblr, Twitter, Facebook, ect have the same thing in the TOS
btw the people that upload on IMVU aren't of the company
they are random users, I use to play the game a lot and I know the works of the selling items in game.
So YES they are making money off your work.
I mean really people blow shit over the edge. If you actually act like a person and think of the issue
maybe people will listen to you. Why don't you email IMVU themselves talk to them about it.
all the while they are making money from it.
maybe if YOU started acting like a 'person' you'd realize that the proof of submition should be on the submitter at the time of submitting, not the artist 2, 3, 4 months down the line when they happen to stumble on their art that has been stolen.
2- At least where I live, no terms of service or anything can violate the law in any way, even if you're agreeing with it.
3- If a user didn't agree or doesn't want to have its content displayed and the offender in question happens to make money out of it, that's stealing.
it isn't their fault you have to report just like on any other site.
Watermark your art there you go
make sure they can't erase the watermark :/
It is a simple issue to get resolved if people actually
cared to protect their own art work from other people.
Just got a little confused ;o;
and you can report it till the cows come home. DMCA isn't a cure all. Policing their sites, banning art theives. those are good starts.
Requiring Proof of ownership is another. Chatlands has art teams dedicated to weeding through submisions. if you don't have proof you made it or have permission to use it, it doesn't go up.
People should WANT to protect their work from others, I'm not shifting blame I'm
telling you how to FIX the issue for the future.
It's called protecting your work.
No DMCA isn't amazing I don't disagree.
I feel if it is stolen their should be no questions.
If you uploaded it first clearly you own it not the other person.
IMVU should be smart enough to know this, it's how DeviantArt deals with
stolen art work all the time.
I do believe IMVU CAN and do have the power to protect peoples are better,
but the sad truth is it is a company all about money.
People are greedy and tend to be assholes and hide behind site rules
acting like they can't take action on their own site.
Omg you just made my day hahaha
Here is an example http://es.imvu.com/shop/product.php.....ts_id=22067666
Just in case you wonder, the original one is: https://www.furaffinity.net/view/10900794/
You put it in the center in a spot no one will want to crop the picture to
because if it was on his belly no one would crop that high.
Think before you put a watermark ffft
God damn you have an answer for everything don't you even though
I can always come back and hit it back at you.
Think before you speak please, clearly it was a bad watermark that
could be cropped but not all can be without making the image horrible.
It can be sideways up against the lines and slightly transparent why would it have to be straight across????
It doesn't interfere with the art at all :/
But whatever say what you want after this I have other things in my life way more important
then this little disagreement to get to.
bye and good day to yuh
lots of people to go against you in a court room.
actions speak louder than words people seem to forget this sometimes.
As has this company for thinking a Q&A will solve issues :/
They do need to deal with this issue better though I do agree.
People really should try to protect their art with signatures
and watermark though in the future to stop future issues from popping up.
If They don't do something about it soon I can guarantee you that a lot of people will probably be taking legal action against IMVU. To prevent further theft all I can say is watermark your art unfortunately.
I want to know the answer to that to though what are they going to do. They can't just sit there and leave it there :/. What are they gonna do about the AP stuff to.
I have a few solutions to it. First let people preview the AP content with out having to pay for age verification is one way. Preview but not buy it. That way stolen art could be reported. I doubt they will do that because money. IMvu is nothing but money hungry. It still bothers me why they're so interested in FA though. We get an answer but it still seems a bit off.
In this tactic the residing occupants of an area, should they feel threatened to the degree of questioning their residencies will retreat from the area and in process lay ruin to anything that could be used by the invading forces. That's exactly the future that lays for this site you have taken ownership from.
Having a degree in behavior psychology warrants me the ability to foresee this.
First the more sporadic fraction of the community will abandon ship and flock to other contingency sites, this will draw several units of population that reside on the fence as well, and mind you that in the history of this site, this has happened before. It's known as an Exodus Attempt. Upon this notion, in the past, the ones that have vacated have eventually flocked back in realization that this home is all they have and they really don't want to leave. But this will not be the case. I know the intentions of this site, and as much as it pains me to say this, the antiquated nature of the appearance and functionality is all but ruin in a lot of ways and must be advanced in a very careful way. But indeed, must be done so by a furry.
The spearhead staff involved in the FA/IMVU merge is not a furry entity, and because of that will not be trusted on any level. You are alien to us, and knowing that this site was ripped from its hold to be owned by those incapable of seeing it for what it is is only testament to the fact you and the IMVU staff have no real idea on why we are here, why we are furries, why we are concerned, and why we are important and will fight back in droves.
So, what comes after the Exodus is its achievement. When people do not come back, level-headed artist will find less commissions and thus will be forced into searching for other avenues to pursue, this on top of the un-fixable IMVU art thievery that is guaranteed to happen will seal the fate that is the second wave of evacuation.
Once this happens, there will be a drastic drop in art upload from credible sources thus meaning a lesser reason for any middle-ground member to stay, thus leading them to flock to the Artist's new dwellings.
In all of this, the Population will drop between 60% to 80%, the site will no longer have the clientele basis to make advertisement viable, donations (I'll be damned if IMVU were to ever ask for them) will cease entirely, and the site will lose global respect, as it already has, by more than just FA members.
It was an interesting attempt at marketing the furry community, but the best way that you could have done this would be to have constructed your own site independent from FA, instead your purchased an antiquated site with a list of members that will be carried from your hands by the wind of your inadequacy to comprehend why we are here and how we would react.
Thank you,
John Remmer
Do not explain to me on how another furry site can't solve anything, let a lone this, it is something that tops any and all sites that have been constructed before.
Should you want in on this project, you are more than welcome to contact me at JohnDRemmer[at]gmail.com
Let's show what can actually be done by doing what should be done.
You're not the only one who holds qualifications in behavioural psychology and I can say with confidence, you haven't made a sufficiently convincing argument for your peers in this matter.
I can't help but suspect your opinion is further coloured by your spearheading of a competitor website as well.
So in that fact, regardless of what people think or don't think, time keeps on moving. Besides, my involvement in a competitor site has nothing to do with wanting to create a site of my own, this competitor site is a direct response from the issues of FA/IMVU. In fact, the applications of this competitor site were supposed to be implemented to FA in the future. Dragoneer has made that impossible and redundant now, despite my direct communication with him over this.
If you don't want to involve yourself with the affairs of my doing, than don't, it's up to you entirely.
Captain Obvious, is that you?
Aside from Weasyl, how do you feel about a new site built off of this FA/IMVU fuel?
This act of betrayal is immense, because if this site has reached it's high global position, is because of the artists that post here. Dragoneer has done nothing in all this 10 years, the ones who have constructed this site are we the artists, so when he sold the site he pretty much stabbed in the back every single person that contributed to place this site in the top 1,000 of global sites.
Or you could post on multiple sites, double check everything and watermark or censor anything on an IMVU owned site...then if they sell non-watermarked stuff on an IMVU site, you have legal cause. And well, if you are doing the pay site thing and all that, there are apps that put the purchaser's account number on the bottom...I know, a friend of mine has something to that effect, so the paid site stuff tells them who dun it.
So, PANIC EVERYONE!!!! There are only a million and one ways to get around getting your stuff stolen...oh wait, that never changed...
>.< Furries...this is why the real world can't stand us.
We agreed to all of that in the beginning, even if we never read it.
This is VERY important.
Indeed, if you analyze this and all the other journals, Dragoneer doesn't say anything solid or concrete beyond rhetorical evasions and promises of everything "being okay, we are working in it, trust us, we cant give any details, but have faith in us. Period."
What sucks is that I didn't get enough time to be able to wave money in his face to getting this site from him. Yes, we had this conversation between him and I.
There is nothing alright with being forced to pay a company just to be able to use your own rights to protect yourself.
Though I do have a very OLD payed account.... sadly I can't help other artist just
with my account though.... because I can't protect others work and speak for them.
And then of course, DCMA wise, only the person who created it can file.
IMVU needs a proper flagging system ALONGSIDE DMCA.
It is bull shit that they wont even give a chance for people to protect their work :/
I kinda think of Secondlife. (IMVU always felt like a knock-off version of Seondlife to me, but thats just my own feelings rather than fact). Instead of hiding the catalog behind a paywall, You do have to register but then verify as an adult. Which is fine. I don't have to give them money or payment to verify my age. I can then access the catalog/market and if I need to, flag violations.
Maybe they could benefit with a similar verification system. x.x; I would not mind verifying my age as an adult to be able to make sure content isn't (further, already had an issue @__@) stolen from me. I'm not going to upright pay them for the service just to protect myself though. That is flat out wrong.
IMVU could start to pay out Artist whos stuff got stolen and they generated money with...
Okay, setting all the other concerns aside, I want to focus on my biggest one. Not about the stolen artwork. Not about the ads themselves and spyware/adware/insertvariousvirushere, the fear of future paywalls, none of that.
If you can answer me this one question, then that would be greatly appreciated.
Why buy FA? Now, I know this question was answered above, but let me explain what I mean. According to you all, the sole reason for this buyout was to aid the site, as well as be able to put third party ads onto the site. Okay, cool, fine, whatever. But why did you need to buy out the whole site to do this? Certainly there are other ways to aid the site. Become a parternship instead of corporal buyout. Donate to Dragoneer himself, even become his Patreon. And then throwing extra money at buying the cheap adspace. If you became a Patreon then you'd pretty much do the exact same thing. The site would remain independent, you could still put money towards it in expectation it would go into site improvement and maintenace, potentially get the adspace in the process. A partnership would be similar to a buyout, but at least we would all feel the site is still independent and be able to end the partnership should things start to go south. Both of these options would've achieved this very same goal that you all supposedly want to achieve. And would likely take less money, at least not in one large lump sum.
The reason why everyone is so suspicious and fearful of what's to come, is because at the end of the day, no matter how charitable IMVU may or may not be, /it is still a business./ And from a business standpoint, the reasoning makes no sense for the buyout. It's foolish. I'm not saying that all IMVU staff members are greedy asshats. I'm sure many of you are great people who honestly would like to see this site flourish. But I fail to see how IMVU could possibly benefit from this in a financial way. If ad revenue was truly worth buying the site over, then we wouldn't need donations from the users. The fact that donations have been needed so desperately in the past goes to show just how little ads make on a site of this size. It just makes. No. Sense.
This is why everyone believes there is an alternate motive behind the purchase. Why buy such a massive site, just to do nothing but chuck more money at it? Even in theory, doing this sounds like it's just a whirlpool sucking away far more money into it, than is being pushed back out. That is only one of the reasons that people are mad, confused and worried about FA's future, but I feel it's one of the most important ones. It's suspicious. Maybe you all are true to your word. Maybe nothing will happen to the site as you say, and I hope your words are true. I for one am going to stick around and see if that holds true. I can't say my hopes are high, but I'm not jumping ship until I know it's sinking.
First of all, is this some sort of hoax designed exclusively for April Fools as a prank?
This has been speculation though highly unlikely.
Second, if IMVU bought out FA. Does IMVU retain rights to FA and control? Despite claiming that FA is independent ownership still dictates control and at any time that FA feels unnecessary it can be defunct by management. This question will be rephrased 100 times or more to get a straight answer.
Other than a site which you can place advertisement, what benefit of acquiring FA do you see with IMVU on the terms of profit, Monetary gain and growth of community and site? IN context of the community of FA doesn't wish for the merger of ideas, views, beliefs, attitudes nor does FA share the same values as a community on the same basis of cultures, messages or ideology on a social, psychological or physical level. In order for two communities to grow each must share some of the same level of culture in order to thrive. This is the assimilation value which with the current community of FA we have the separation value.
What is IMVU doing to better manage it's site against online piracy and in order to safe guard it's interests in the community against such threats of integrity, reliability and trustworthiness? IN context of: IMVU making it difficult to file DMCA claims and charging those who make such claims with a financial fee?
'Warning: The unauthorized reproduction or distribution of this copyrighted work is illegal. Criminal copyright infringement, including infringement without monetary gain, is investigated by the FBI and is punishable by up to 5 years in federal prison and a fine of $250,000.'
I will be waiting for a direct answer...
"How to DMCA notice to IMVU."
In short: Fill out a text form, send it to an email address. No money nor account required.
And, according to a few other users posting here, yes, it works.
"So what happens if stolen art is hidden behind a paywall?", some folks keep asking... But if no one sees it, how would they know it's there?
Frankly, they're just waiting for the other shoe to drop.
That's a lot of words to say what basically amounts to nothing at all. Rather than reassuring anyone, all you've done is underestimate the user base.
The answers in this contain not a scrap of actual information, just vague "we like FA so we'll help it", and generally speaking nobody is going to buy that a for profit company suddenly decided to support a furry site without some expectation of a return on investment. What that return on investment will be is what people want to know, that question not being answered is what is worrying the community.
Even if the members accept there were reasons not to notify the community of the acquisition up front or even as soon as it was done, you've had two months since then. During that two months, you could have interviewed and hired a lead programmer who knows what he or she is doing, since apparently you now have a budget. Announcing the buy out with news such as the hiring of a paid programmer with a strong work history might have reassured people.
You could have shown up with concrete plans and a timetable instead you give vague promises that everything will be fine. Does IMVU not have a human resources department or anyone who understands how people work?
One of major concern is still, about those who don't know they got their works stolen, which is then hidden behind a paywall of Premium Access to adult works. How will you address them then? DMCA can't help if they don't even know what happened in the first place. And as far as I have heard, peer-reviews doesn't help, they don't work well.
How will you address that question then? Note that if there's no words about this people will keep spouting "you need PA access you have to buy to see if yours got stolen. IMVU benefit from thefts," demonizing IMVU further.
(It should have been none of my concern as I don't draw anthros anyways, but... being part of ever-changing history....)
This is what we know of thus far- http://imgur.com/a/oAtuI
if anyone has an IMVU account, please screen cap stolen art and let us know.
Firstly, FA is part of much a larger Online community. Telling us there will be no more "oh, and FA won’t need community donations to survive, so no more pledge drives. :)" might sound like an excellent perk, but that removes the touch the community has as well as its involvement on an individual level. Donations are another part of what connects us to FA; FA's not just a service to us, and this attitude suggests a possible disconnect from that mentality... in a direction some of us might not like.
"IMVU plans on supporting FA changing the site to make improvements, but FA is run independently, so changes will be determined by Dragoneer and team." -- the word "team" is a bit unclear there, but the segment implies Dragoneer will be left to his own devices with his team. I take it that is the same FA team Dragoneer had BEFORE the IMVU acquisition?
This whole Q&A, while it addresses some concerns, has strong touches of PR, which could be potentially off-putting to some. It could be viewed as a way of talking down to our concerns and to us, not to mention suggesting of an impending disconnect between the fandom and this site's new partner, however it seems the decision's already been made for whatever reason. If people seem upset or untrusting of this decision, these reasons -- as well as many others -- could be why. There's really nothing that can be done about that, and those of us who are really upset will probably just move on.
for that hole your'e digging yourself into.
Otherwise, I will delete all my OC sonic the hedgehog porn and change my icon to an anti IMVU thing made in MS Paint.
When IMVU goes under because it is a shitty service, FA dies.
When IMVU decides they don't like X-kind of artwork, FA dies.
When IMVU decides that they aren't comfortable with porn, my boner and FA dies.
When IMVU decides to start charging for premium services, FA dies.
When IMVU realizes that FA isn't giving them any revenue because fuck paying for anything here, FA dies.
I've been watching this nonsense unfold and it is insanely frustrating for multiple reasons, but the fact that everyone keeps touting the "Oh, well, IMVU promised that they won't change anything!" statement without acknowledging the fact that IMVU is a shitty, slimy, greedy, money-first/customers-never type company that will happily change everything about FA without giving two shits about what happens to it just infuriates me. What is also infuriating is that Dragoneer seems to love to address people's concerns to try to calm them down until the questions get too intense for him and he realizes that he fucked up, so he just ignores them. I've seen many people asking the simple stuff and Dragoneer answering, like what is IMVU? What is your position now? Will anything change? etc. But the moment the questions change to things like what happens when IMVU flops and goes under? What happens when IMVU decides to change things because they own FA and can do that without your input? What happens when art theft becomes rampant because you weren't smart enough to ask questions before selling the website? etc. he just ignores the person and stops answering.
The whole thing is an absolute mess and honestly at this point I kind of hope FA goes down in flames just so Dragoneer can realize how stupid of a choice he made (which, honestly, I feel like he already realizes that at this point, but can't do anything about it). It would have been a smarter choice to just close up shop and shut FA down rather than sell it to IMVU, and I honestly would have preferred that.
They do sell well at cons. Much cooler though when they are of peoples characters or something.
Honestly, my biggest issue with all this is not with IMVU but with Dragoneer. I find it incredibly disrespectful to sell the site because of his own personal problems which shouldn't have been a problem in the first place if he had any clue on how to properly mange something and generate revenue. If other companies/people wanted to buy it (not including those that would want to deliberately cause it harm), then they could see it's potential being one of the most trafficked sites on the whole web. If you have a look at Dragoneer's Twitter, you can see exactly why he can't manage his finances with his expensive lifestyle. He never was good at managing this site and this is -far- from the first time the users of FA has had issues because of this fact. Also, he sure could have chosen a better company to sell it to but at least should have had the courtesy to let us know what was going on before it happened. Now he's still *air quote* in charge *air quote* but we also have to worry about an organization that many people don't trust (I haven't had to deal with IMVU before because I think it sucks so didn't create an account) and is probably going to die out because its such a bad application. IMVU has been tanking for years and once SL2 comes out, it'll tank some more. What happens to FA when IMVU goes out of business? What happens when they realize they aren't getting hardly any new members to their app? Do they then just bombard us with more paid ads from other companies or would they sell it to someone else or just shut it down completely? These are possible outcomes but only time will tell so I wont focus on a dystopic future. Again, my main frustration is with what's already happened and that's with Dragoneer.
As for Dragoneer, what he does and doesn't do, what he is capable and incapable of, as far as I'm concerned its none of my business or concern. Once I actually have to pay to use FA, then I'll care and have a right to care about the management and how things run. Till that happens, I'll just go about my business and use the site like I always have.
And I still kind of want to see the site sink as well. Just to see everyone freak out even more and to laugh at the fact that Neer sunk it when he had more then eough chances to fix it.
Only furries can be the most welcoming group to anything but change.
Situation 1: The website is down due to a malfunction or attack, it's a change cause it's not up. A change was made because the site was not up.
-Solution: Panic and post journals on how to find me on weasel.
Situation 2: Users complain nothing is fixed. Site goes down for maintenance. Comes online 4 hours later than stated. Changes were made in the background that no one will notice.
-Solution: Panic and post journals on how to find me on weasel.
Situation 3: Someone is added to the staff list, but has no actual power over individuals. A change has occurred to the staff roster.
-Solution: Panic and post journals on how to find me on weasel.
Situation 4: Site s at risk of shutting down and desperately needs funding to keep going. There is a notice pleading for more donations. A change was made to the heading.
-Solution: Panic and post journals on how to find me on weasel.
Situation 5: FA is acquired by some company. FA staff, operations, and everything is staying the exact same except donations will no longer be needed, FA will finally have the resources needed to fix major issues (see Situation 2) and absolutely nothing is changing except the addition of 1 ad. A change was made for the ad.
-Solution: Panic and post journals on how to find me on weasel.
Seriously... Dr. Mario prescribes you all a chill pill.
Today, what attains us it not only the art theft, indeed the art theft itself seems like a small problem compared to the real one. IMVU had an initial investment of 20,000 dollars in this site, plus what they will spend to improve the code and the month to month costs of maintenance. That money will NEVER be recovered by merely obtaining ad revenue like they claim, leaving alone any profit at all.
Thus, as a bussiness and not as a charitative entity, IMVU will eventually charge us for whatever you want, be it a premium account, a fee for comissioning, etc. The money charging is inminent. If that wasn't enough, their target demographic are 14 year old children. As soon as society notices that the same providers of the 3D chat service are the owners of this literal hole of pornography, they will demand them to ban the porn, and believe me, they will do it in one way or other.
Being calm is not an alternative, one has to know a little bit of bussiness to know how this is going to evolve.
In words of
"I think I missed this lesson in the business classes I went to.
- Pour your capital into a dying business to help it grow
- Expect little to nothing in return save for a smidge more publicity for your own company
- Watch your company miraculously grow as a result
Times sure have changed!
They are pouring a LOT of money into this site on the off chance that people will join their pay to play game and click their ads. A good deal of us can't even SEE the ads due to adblocks. So this is a lot of investment for a lot of maybes. Buying into potential is one thing but that potential needs to have decent odds of becoming a reality which, looking at the reactions of the userbase, seems unlikely.
Maybe someone will click ads and bring us in more money
Maybe someone will pay for IMVU services
Maybe someone will pay for the services required to keep an eye out for their art being stolen (you can't check what's being sold without an account complete with a paid age verification)
Would you pour your finances into a company that was filled with so much uncertainty? Most people looking to keep their business afloat wouldn't. There are just too many variables that could go wrong.
Yet nobody on IMVU staff seems concerned. They throw up broad general terms to pacify our fears like 'growth opportunity' and 'huge potential', dodging the questions completely and assuring us that someone who is apparently not on their payroll will be running the site they own (not totally sure if that's even legal in most parts of the world) completely independant of their rulings.
They seem very certain that this will be profitable yet they refuse to tell us how beyond those wide generalizations that only serve to make people more suspicious of their motives. I know that we, as non paying members, have no right to know anything at all about this but we are worried about how this will all affect us in the future.
HOW is this going to be profitable? Certainly not with a couple more ads. Those hardly generated enough to keep the site afloat before and now they are supposed to make up for the money that they are pouring into us? The amount of ads that would be required to make up for the monthly costs of keeping this place afloat would make the site virtually unusable.
Many people might be overreacting a little bit by jumping ship but there are just too many unanswered questions that staff is dancing around. Despite what they think, 'it'll all be ok' is not a suitable answer for 'what is going to happen to us', and it's things like that that are causing widespread panic.
Please, riddle me this Batman. Why should I attempt to feed your demand for "logic" when all you are simply going to do is attempt to prove your "logic" is better than my "logic". It gets no one no where as most people are too stuck up in their ways to even consider the other side's "logic" in a rational manner. I mean, look at yourself. You're clearly so stuck up about your "logic" that truthfully is nothing but speculation on the "what ifs" or what is the "Deeper motive" that you've already changed your avatar to show what "team" you're on. Meanwhile, I find your "logic" flawed as it's based entirely on assumption of what COULD happen, even if it is arguable as to be LIKELY to happen, it still has not in fact happened. It is nothing more than an empty concern, and that my friend, is not "logic" worthy of a healthy debate.
The fun thing is the more of your time I waste with this silliness, the less "doors" (comments from others) you have time to knock on and "preach your logic" to others. ^_^
So you actually believe they bought FA and support it financially out of charity, right? Because the company has a pretty different record of doing the opposite, and you can consult as much resources here as you want to confirm that.
Maybe my fun little way of putting it was too silly for you so I'll try blunt: If you have such a fucking problem with it, then why the hell are you even still here? Don't let the door smack your tail on the way out cause no one cares. Is that a bit easier to understand? ^_^
You just can't let me go, could you? This is what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object. You truly won't stop, will you? You won't stop out of some misplaced sense of self-righteousness. And I won't stop because you're just too much fun. I think you and I are destined to do this forever.
*giggles* You see what I did there? ^_^
I gave you a completely "logical" reason, which was your "logic" is nothing but suspicion, assumption, assuming that something is going to happen when it hasn't happened, concern over the "what if". You know, that isn't very healthy. And for being someone who is so "logical" you are hypocritical; you certainly have resorted to name calling, so who is the immature one? I mean, we all know name calling only further proves you're correct, right? The worst I have done is call you a Jehovah Troll. But I mean, I can call you a Cultist Troll if you prefer as to not offend Jehovah witnesses. Feel free to prove my label wrong but you are in fact stalking this thread (like a troll), trying to pick an argument, or "debate" as you call it (like a troll), with anyone who disagrees with you, regardless of what reason or logic they may or may not have provided (like a cultist). Soooo... yeah. I was at least trying to be polite by basically telling you not to waste your time commenting to me, and yet here we are wasting our time. ^_^
I actually just looked at your page. Honestly, muscle furs aren't much of my thing, but you're a very talented artist and your artwork is very good. Keep it up! ^_^
guy wont leave me alone.....
tried making an example saying
"So... if my car gets stolen, is it my fault for not putting enough locks in the door?"
Just because I said people need to protect their art with watermarks a little more.... .o.
Made my day though haha.
Truthfully, I don't see what the big deal is on the Art Theft... I mean.. whether you post here, DA, Weasel, Photobucket, Ink Bunny, Facebook, whatever... is it still not at the same exact risk and opportunity of being stolen and put on another site anyway?
I dunno, maybe it's cause I'm not a good artist and don't have to worry about art theft, but to me when you post something online well... there it goes. If you didn't want it online, why did you post it online? I'm all for the artist and thieves suck, but... if you're a good artist and don't take proper measures like watermarks... what do you expect? *shrugs*
I completely agree, people need to know what they are putting themselves up for when they
submit an art piece without a good watermark to prove it is your work...
If you can crop it, and the art still doesn't look cropped when it is clearly not a good one.
Nah don't say that anyone can have art stolen.
I had my art stolen on DA when I was 13 and it was horrible MS paint stuff xD
I laughed so hard.... was just kinda like wow this sucks why did you take it.
Only thing I ever had an issue with was my 3D Gameboy I made of Perler beads with removable cartridge. Tons of people wanted me to hand them the template to make it themselves. 3 years later, someone finally just studied the picture cause they wanted one so bad and they figured it out on their own. Then posted a template online of how to make it, but it was before they realized how much I guarded it based on the comments. They noted me and apologized and said they'd take it down, but after all the work they did, they'd rather not. I said screw it, he took the time and effort to figure it out and make a template, pffft, leave it up under the agreement neither of us will offer to sell it for commission. I have more things in the work now anyway... but I realize this is simply me.
If they liked it THAT much you should feel pretty good about yourself c:
you made someone take time out of their life to figure something out.
That or people staking advantage of staff's heightened awareness of stolen content to make attacks on users they dislike or just want to troll.
I know these are extreme cases but you never know. There will be people trying to take advantage of the chaos.
Even now, I don't doubt that anyone who's voiced a dissenting opinion to the doomsayers has also been targeted by illegitimate art theft. More than once, I've seen a variation of the phrase 'just wait until it's your art that gets stolen'.
So I dunno who to believe. Really, I couldn't care if FA sinks, because I've moved house more than once to be sure. (MG to DA, DA to FA, now sidestepping between FA, Weasyl, and F-list.) Hell, FA dying would be a relief at this point. In any case, no one is virtuous in a situation like this.
When an artist gets his art stolen and sold at Imvu, they see no concrete loss in their money: they loose money they COULD have earned. However, once Imvu implements fees, both artists and users will have a direct impact in their money, and a concrete loss.
How do I know they are going to put fees? I have no scientific evidence, aside from the mathematical reasoning that they are not going to get via ad revenue enough money to cover what they have invested in acquiring the site.
I was however focused on the damaged personalities that tend to flock to social networking sites who steal art then get mad when they are caught. The "how dare you tell me this other person's character is not me! I am a broody teen who identifies as this pretty picture i found and no one can tell me otherwise."
Then finally the anti popufurs could use the chaos to spitefully attack and troll individuals.
Consider the following. An initial investment of 20,000 dollars, then having to pay a group of coders, the month to month maintenance and paying Dragoneer a wage for sitting all the day and quite possibly do nothing. That cost, the rough investment, can not possibly be covered by the mere money coming from ad revenue. It is natural thwt they will have to find another way to squeeze money out of us, the furries, in order not to only cover the investment but to also acquire a profit, thqt is the objective of every bussiness on earth.
Such money taken from us, be it in premium accounts or fees, is money thqt artists will loose, and that users will loose too.
I wonder how traffic is doing on FA? A part of me thinks the controversy has probably shot up numbers. All the refreshes to these huge comment strings, showing ads, makin' the money....
All that said, I understand there's still the principal of the matter, and more power to you if you wanna go down this road.
Fff...
Ffffffffurries. o_o
Why panic when you can watch and wait? And in all honesty, what else can we -do-?
In the end, one side will be proven right, and the other proven wrong, and there will be much discontent, no matter who "wins". Worrying about things that are out of our control is legitimately like, square peg, round hole. You can work and fuss and cry and moan about it not fitting, but it still won't fit. (Giggity.)
Same goes for the site being sold.
Papers have exchanged hands, contracts signed, and business transactions have occurred. Not much anyone other than those directly involved in the transaction have much say in what is already done.
Doesn't mean people don't have the right to voice their angst and anxiety, or support and encouragement. It just means that...when it comes down to it, they are just opinions at this point. Nothing is going to change regarding the situation, therefore, only those who have grievances (like those who ARE having art theft issues) with copyright infringement itself are going to get things changed, and in the end, that's what most people seem to be having concern with, anyway.
Point being: Life is too short to worry about things which we can't help. Act inside your sphere of influence, rather than your sphere of attention, and life won't seem as tedious.
I just bought a digital tablet and was planning on starting to do commissions but now, I will wait and see. I am already quite old so I can't wait for long.
we should start a thread in the forums to post any theft or suspected theft and proof.
Insignificant...
Compared...
Same as...
Customers...
Why you had to love money?
The average physical age of active Furries is 24 years. Deduct 10 for mental age.
Consider to enrich your knowledge before criticizing people.
Also, a good percenage of the concern arises from the people being unable to see any logic in Imvu's supposed bussiness plans for FA, and that's a logic reason to not believe their official statements. 14 year olds do not have a grasp of that knowledge, in average.
Talk about "immature" and "illogical", you should check a mirror cause it looks like you're showing your true colors. That little "face" you put on for everyone to see has given way. You judge me and call me a manchild simply because I play Super Mario games, now that's what I call immaturity. I cosplay as Super Mario just as any other furry in a suit cosplays as their character, or lucario, or renamon, or MLP, or Solid Snake, or any of the hundreds I've seen at MFF alone.
Judge me how you wish, but this "manchild" who likes children's games goes to different children's hospitals, visiting kids and bringing a smile to their face when they get to meet their hero, bringing with $500+ worth of brand new video gaming equipment for the hospital as a donation for the game room or play area. This manchild was at MFF when it was attacked by the chlorine bomb, helping people get to safety and volunteering to help staff in an emergency situation because that's what that "children's game" character would do: be a hero, risk his safety to protect others. I'm willing to bet that's more than you've done considering your life accomplishments appear to be stalking internet discussions and starting arguments with anyone who disagrees with your point of view.
You're move, Mr. Maturity. ^_^
Your attempt at using my own words on me is about as creative as "I know you are but what am I?" How cute ^_^
FA is just another social site for me...I have my own sites to keep up and running anyways....
Also no one cares about your ads. You also can't say they're secure. Ads can be hacked into and replaced no matter where they are on the web or server. This is why there's ad blocks for all the web browsers and why people should use them. IMVU might have bought the site and say their ads are secure but could very, very, easily just let them go bugged into FA and let any user not using an ad block get infected and lose everything. Sure the sites that use ads to generate revenue might lose said revenue because it's users have ad blocks but in the long run, no one likes ads. USE AD BLOCK PEOPLE. It'll help you in the long run. Also don't use IE. The browser itself is just one just bug waiting for the right moment to kill whatever device your using. Trust me, it almost killed my laptop till I switched to Firefox and got ad block.
This. This guy knows what he's talking about.
When it comes to the IE and ads, I know this from studying networking and how ads work was explained in a very basic version and even the basic version is kind of complicated. Just believe me, don't trust ads. They might seem harmless, even on here, but anyone that has the knowledge can swap an ad for a bugged version while still having the same images and links only with a hidden executable file that can invade your device. Then depending on the antivirus your using, the virus might get passed depending how new the bug is. More then likely it'll be to new for the antivirus to be able to see and it'll get passed any virus scan you use till it's reported and the companies get a hold of an image of the virus to be able to create the coding to find and fight the virus. By then any normal user with no separate device or backups will have already lost everything on that device or retrieve possible bugged data to put on the next device.
Concrete example: I log into FA, I load the main page, thus Imvu's malware-ridden ads get loaded too. Is that enough to infect, or am I safe as long as I don't click them?
Thanks in advance.
So yes, even loading the ad that's bugged can infect your device without being known till it's to late. If it's a key stroke bug then your royally screwed especially if you log into your bank accounts since the antivirus more then likely wont see it till it's to late and your identity is stolen.
(Also thanks a lot for the info ;.; )
Honestly, I would have felt better if you hadn't posted this hogwash.
This. This is pretty much what almost everyone felt when reading this journal.
Well, I made a catboy 'sona in IMVu years ago.
The only good thing that's come from this is that I logged back in and found it.
https://youtu.be/1ytCEuuW2_A
Really? We were told that 20K would fix everyone's pro-
> Dedicated Leader
There's the problem!
THough that does bring up a good question that I'm not sure if its been answered who gets the revenue generated by the FA user paid ads now? Does IMVU get it or does it go directly to benefit FA only?
If this site didn't have the potential to generate a mass amount of money, there wouldn't have been any offers to buy it in the first place except for those that would want to buy it just to shut it down based on bigoted opinions. IMVU certainly would not have requested to purchase it if it didn't have this potential...
My feelings for IMVU aside (and I don't have any good ones), this whole ordeal is due to -terrible management-. But not to worry, he's still running the site, right? So I guess we can look forward to more of the same poor management but also have to deal with the possible constrictions and concerns brought by IMVU.
The mass amount of negative reaction to this shift could have been curbed with a little conversation. I feel the reason so many people are so angry about this is just that. Its a shocker and so sudden that it leaves a bad taste in your mouth and makes hundreds (possibly thousands) lose all faith in the legitimacy of a functional, safe site which is why people are scrambling to move accounts to more user-concerned sites such as Weasyl, So Furry, and hell - even Ink Bunny.
Regardless of any issues that may be brought upon by IMVU, this was a terrible business maneuver and instead of getting pissed off with IMVU, we should be pissed off with Dragoneer for selling us all out not just to IMVU, but anyone and any company based on his blatant disrespect toward the users of FA.
And that's my two cents.
.....Also, IMVU sucks and SL is 100,000,000x better. SL2 coming soon! *clap clap clap*
Also, in a historical note, Dragoneer has always played the same game after something bad happens: he remains relatively silent, uncaring, and waits for things to cool off. And it has worked for him several times in the past. Problem now, is that this time the thing is too hot and won't cool down as easily as he expects.
file a DMCA take down requestmind. :):3
The fact that the site has never had a major facelift since conception is one of the two major reasons why most of these comments (I know without even scanning thru most of them) are going to be salty and bitter.
The other one is the fact that everyone is fed with with how the admins have dealt with multiple things at the past-- but honestly at this point I doubt 'Neer is gonna step down and I'm sure a lot of people are fine with simply disregarding the uproar that follows so long as it doesn't directly effect them. BUT PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE OF FUCK....Can we at the VERY LEAST have a new coder since this entire journal just basically says "IMVU is fronting us cash so we don't need donation drives anymore and aren't poor!!111".
People keep saying "THIS MEANS NOTHING LOLOL. NOTHING IS GOING TO CHANGE" but if nothing changes then what was the point?
At least give us a new code here, bro. e_______e
I'm so burnt out on FA's drama that I literally can't even be salty about this shit anymore, I just want something to be done and for the site to stop feeling like it's on the verge of breaking down.
Dare I mention the millions of postpones on the new code?Tbh, If anything they'll probably just reply to me here if they're gonna.
Alright, you answered my first one, so my next one is how FA being better (which is awesome) is profitable for IMVU? Most people use adblockers.
I mean, I can see a few suggestions to help make the site profitable, such as putting together a legitimate YCH/commission infrastructure and charging a modest (talking < 5%) fee to sales, but offering protections to artists and consumers alike as well as moving away from Paypal's risks (due to their "moral" stances).
But just upgrading the site and infrastructure? How does that provide profit? You're a private company, can you share how you plan on recouping your investment?
- So you secretly bought the site without telling the FA community, the people you think knows what's good for them... LOL?
Yup. It's been lost. Deal's done, milk spilt. But, don't mean we ain't going to hang back, and get people the fuck outta here.
....... Hey, Dragoneer, I assume you had a lawyer read over the contract and all, right? .... Right?
GUYS.
FA isn't even handling the art theft on site.
You're seriously expecting something to be done - off site.
I mean TT's unanswered, and yet... Still this is a thing.
They don't care. It's not gonna change.
to make sure this is not some sort of incredibly overdone, elaborate April Fool's Joke,
still, I'm not going to jump ship just yet -- but I AM going to start crossposting to Weasyl now that I have an easy way of doing so.
This whole thing has been and probably will continue to be like a ballet in a forest, a forest filled with hornets nests, landmines, and maybe a few ravaging wolves over a hollow earth. Why you might ask, well aside from the furry pun IMVU's PR department is going to have to dance around very carefully when dealing with FA, because the moment you take a wrong step your going to bump into a hornets nest (Piss everyone off again), land on a landmine (lose some limbs ... I mean users), to which furry animals of all sorts will rain down from up high to eat the remains (I really don't have anything for this), and the ensuing mass of floof will break the earths shell sinking IMVU with FA forever... ... ... With that all said in done, I hope your company pays you well because you really have your work cut out for you.
To those on the other side of the argument, while I respectfully disagree with your possession on the recent events. I hope that you're right, because despite all the problems with FA, it was still a pretty fun ride and would hate to see it die. I left because I disagree with IMVU's business policies, past track record as a whole, and personal experiences with the company prior to all this, and as such don't wish to be affiliated to them in any way. As a member especially one that isn't of high important within the fandom, at least in my opinion, I feel that the only real power I have to voice my opinion in protest of everything that has happened in a way that will provoke a real response from someone higher up is to discontinue the use of FA as a whole. While my example may be that of a fly hitting a window, if enough people feel the same way and do the same, then either FA will die and drag IMVU down with it or serious safeguards will be put in place to protect FA and its users from there fears.
*Puts on a black overcoat and a hat... Picks up a suitcase covered in stickers from other furry art galleries* FurAffinity, I bid you farewell... Weasyl, SoFurry I welcome what new adventures you have in store for me :3 *Logs off for the final time*
(PS: I saved the past few journal pages to my computer for a laugh down the road)
omg that video is perfect...
I know it says FA, but does it mean what i think it means?
On a side note though LINGO was a fun Game show while it lasted.
Administrator Sir ... anticipating what we think is going to happen *eventually*, doesn't mean we're completely negative. I know I don't want to be. But there is nothing you *can* say, and no reassurances you *can* give us, and that is why your administrative position sucks really bad. The only way you could have prevented this? It would have been to be completely open about this from the start. And avoid all those mistakes that had been pointed out earlier.
What do you expect us to do? People are being skeptical, and alarmed.
why nearly 3 months after the deal?
Why is it still in place?
Clearly something is being hidden... its just a matter of time before they spring it on us...
But honestly, that seems to be the most important part people get nervous about. If everything was as positive as it was stated, then there would be no need for the NDA. I'm not sure if I want to find out what it is...
That means the following things can possible happens in the near future:
Paywall
- I think nearly everyone is smelling that piece.
Fire Dragoneer
- To be honest, I doubt it, but it will cost IMVU a lot of Money to get things working with him if we remember how often he betrayed us and do bullshit with Admins and Donations alike. ("Zidonuke for Admin" and the "where are the Donations" Gamble)
Putting adds all over the place
- I really belief that will mostly happens. without an Addblocker you wouldn't see a line of text here
artist and therefore Users will leave
- I hope so
Fa will vanish
- Rest in Pieces
We think that by supporting FA they can build a better experience and bigger community and make something more valuable for IMVU, FA and the furry community in general.
========================================================
Errrr, No, answer the fucking question. IMVU did not BUY the site as a hobby. They BOUGHT the site as an investment. Tell us what to expect. There are ways they can make LOTS of money of FA, particularly capitalising on the money which flows through commissions tying in with the fact paypal keeps locking artists out of their accounts. That would be really good and would give us something to look forwards to, helping us and helping you.
Don't pretend that you're just here to bring together furries with other people who roleplay, because none of us are buying it. Google adsense barely buys a few drinks at christmas let alone a return on investment of thousands of dollars. If making heaps of extra money was just a case of switching to google instead of running its own ads FA would've done it years ago.
It seems like the response was completely avoiding the actual question to me...Also the "make something more valuable for IMVU" part has me wondering. I'm just bumbling about watching how things play out for the time being. I want to hope things turn out well, but with the current track record I have no actual hope.
I'm sorry if this reply seems random ;; I'm tired but glad to see someone thinking the same as me.
I personally wouldn't mind a subscription model going up so long as core features are not locked away behind it but what I do fear, if they get this far and that's a BIG if, is that when a subscription model is implemented that they'll also implement their own form of a points system down the line like they did over on Deviantart. I don't want the little self entitled kiddies flooding this site with five cent point commissions and whining and demanding artists who need to make a living cater to them. Points system is a joke and is just bad mojo....jojo.
Heh, I'm not expecting it to get that far though xD.
IMVU used to allow unlimited adult content. Then they started taking that away, and requiring you to get "Access Pass" for things like nude skins, or even the likes of skimpy bikinis. As time went on, all movement or sexual actions have been practically outright banned. Any pose, animated or otherwise, cannot have genitalia touching ANYWHERE! Erect penis or strap on accessories, BANNED!
Make no mistake. IMVU has a thing against adult content. They start off by saying "they're trying to widen the community", then slap perverts down by making them have to get what is basically an "Adult Pass" (except they phrase it "Access Pass"). Then, they take away poses, accessories/clothing, and about anything having to do with sex. Over the years, my fiance and I have had outfits, furniture, and even entire rooms removed. We know it's not developer-centric, we go to their shops, and they still have their non-adult stuff... However, every item we've had taken away by IMVU (and we've never gotten the credits back that we spent real money on to buy them), was 18+ in nature.
They're acting and trying to convince people that they don't have control over FA? Bull. "Acquisition" means acquisition. It's a buy-out. One that keeps the original staff on hand.. But IMVU CAN bring the hammer if they want, and they will.
Expect to have to start paying to host adult content on this site people. Expect things like cubs, necrophilia, and other such things that are considered 'taboo' or 'gross', to be banned from being posted. And I expect I need to go find another furry art site sometime soon. IMVU will destroy the essence and freedom of Fur Affinity! Maybe not this year, maybe not the next... But soon, and for the rest of FA's life!
I wish furs knew more about copyright laws, perhaps a little more paperwork in commissioning someone and vise verse would be a good thing for all.
I think any artist or person who plans to commission one should at least read the basics of copyright laws. I don't think it would help the current situation here much but it's nice to know. :3
Haha, no. This is dildos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9uoJyyoVyk
Never Have Anyfun ever #[Ebola]#Dildos4Life420BlazeNoScopesXxxL33Hax_xxX
No Fun for you- furaffinity.
Dildos.
DILDOs Imm fucking post till I drop. Guess what freedom of speech if you want relevance heres your relevance.
this whole fucking thing is stupid, yeah you need cash for services. Yeah we need a website thats furry. Why cant you just ask for donations than list what you use them for and maybe smarten up and stop acting so unlikeable.
Hey ive got a good one.
Lets instead of making giant promises and promises to revise like we had in the past, lets follow up on all those amazing revisions instead of posting revision 100400.456 art post and a journal about it lets go ahead and listen to the community.
Im also still stuck in probably whats the legacy template because I dont ever update anything ever.
yeah FA gets slow because people forget to delete submissions notes and other things. I know that half the time I forget to.
why would you sell furaffinity? and why not to linden. atleast linden has a full fledged actual user created 3d world and isnt from what ive heard a fancy text box with an avatar EVE style.
Im not bashing on IMVU but it looks like no one took up the offer to buy a furry site outside of the people who wanted to shut it down or buy it for such a low amount of money you wouldnt not get a return on your investment. How many companys came to you with offers? (continued in the next paragraph)
I honestly want transparency and Id love to see every offer you go just for the sake of proof but you really cant because you'd probably hurt your deal with IMVU
whats IMVU's actual plan with FA? if they change terms in the future and make us pay to use things I hope you do realize we are all leaving all of us everyone one of us will leave this site and drop your traffic to nill for months.
FA is already losing traffic and profit which ive heard is driven off of addspace and ad clicks, whats stopping IMVU from dropping FA once the site because more costly beyond what they expected?
you just got 20,000 dollars in donations what happened to them? what happened to all that ad space people keep buying?!
i dont think its helping.
I highly doubt anyone with any actual concerns will get a straight answer any time soon.
Why not give us straight up reasoning? For instance, the question...
"What does IMVU get out of this?" asked by Michichael
Was given this answer.
"We think that by supporting FA they can build a better experience and bigger community and make something more valuable for IMVU, FA and the furry community in general."
This is useless deflection that only inflames community suspicions that something shady is happening. Even the answer...
"We're hoping to attract the FA community to use our service"
...Has some merit to it, but a non answer like the one we were given does absolutely nothing but put more spin on a situation that's already revolving so fast pretty much every furry on the site has long since lost their lunch to the g-force.
No matter what questions we ask, or how loudly we ask them, I doubt we'll be told a damn thing beyond the rhetoric we've been given.
So there's nothing the average fur can do except wait and see what comes of it all, be it a new golden age of prosperity for FA, or the eventual cremation of it's radioactive corpse.
No honestly that makes for me no sence at all, its like suddendly Counter-Strike devs will buy tetris. why? coz they can, thats why - but still thats not a good reason.
Hahahaha. That's rich.
You guys always complain, complain, complain, while you couldn't do 10% of what he did for free.
This is going way too far...
It's his site, he does what he wants and no it won't kill ANYONE.
also, it is indeed his site, but apparently there are thousands of people who use the site every day. we are part of the site, its not only his property.
And like those artists, you overreact. Art thief was there before IMVU (in fact, there was stolen furry art in IMVU BEFORE this drama), it will continue after IMVU, Furaffinity isn't the police of the Fandom at all, they can't do much about people stealing art.
The site IS his property, not the art, this is what has been repeated again and again.
He could turn the whole site down tomorrow and you would still have no right to say anything.
at least he could sell it to the community itself, i think furries would take care of a site for furries than IMVU who is not run by furries.
I'm also not saying that Neer was right to do this, I think it was a bad choice too. But so far nothing changed, except more people leaving - it's their right to do so -
I'd be him I wouldn't want to work for furs anymore, where a good part of the fandom has fun trolling him for the sake of it, where some artists / commissionners believe they can get anything for free while still complaining if there's an outage or basically ANY problem, without even considering that maintaining such a huge site and userbase might be stressfull too, specially when you have a job. I never see anyone thanking him, ever, yet how many artist become well known because of FA?
Also, do you know that dragoneer is know for being a lying jerk? Do your research. Also furaffinity is currently the biggest community for furries, and furries makes a fuckton of money from commissions.
So tell me for what we have to thank him? For still owning the site? He's not like some kind of a God or Jesus Christ. If you expect furries to treat him like a generous god, then maybe youre the one who should leave? Not trying to be rude but maybe try to place yourself in boots of these artists who make living out of commissions - like ME for an example. And if IMVU decides to ban adult content on FA, then it's going to be an end for me. And dont even tell me to try to find "a real job", I already have one - its drawing.
Exactly like the drama with Zaush, I don't care about "what the fandom says", I don't know him personally, I don't make an opinion on what people tell me. Guilty until proven innocent is what the fandom loves. There's absolutely no proof that IMVU is gonna steal anything, yet people like you pretend they will, you'd want me to listen to the fandom gossips? Not gonna happen.
I'll leave when I'll have something against the admin team. But beside spreading unverified things (lies?) about IMVU you guys still fail at making me change my mind.
"And if IMVU decides to ban adult content on FA, then it's going to be an end for me" > I don't to be rude either, but you can simply go to Weasyl, I don't even know what you're still doing here since obviously FA is owned by liars.
IMVU already steals artwork, so what are you even talking about. The bad thing about it is that the people who owns furaffinity, lets their community to just steal not their stuff.
I dont want you do to anything but maybe think a little not only about yourself but also other people who might and are hurt?
Also i had a pretty bad stuff going with dragoneer, so i know what im talking about (perm ban for trying to contact my commissioners).
Weasyl is not a good site either, its too slow and not as popular as fA. have you heard that baddragon makes their own art site? i guess 80% of the community from fA will move there, including me.
From what I see you don't want FA anymore, that's alright, but you also don't want Weasyl, I bet Sofurry is bad too and Inkbunny full of cubs so meh as well?
Who's the guy who only think about himself here? You get all those sites for free, you just have to chose where you wanna stay. People behind those sites worked hard for it (even FA, yes) and didn't ask money for it. Artists have a LOT of advantages over ANYONE else in this fandom, author and musicians hardly get well known, devs are just good to be blamed when something goes wrong, so please don't tell me I'm the one only thinking about myself here.
yeah, they worked hard, but what matters the most to me is where most of the people are. im doing commissions, i need lots of people, lots of pageviews, lots of popularity to be able to sell anything. and im not just greedy for money, what comes after commissions is just simple talking with people, enjoying their art.
all i expect from furaffinity is just honesty, profesionalism and telling the community about important stuff (yeah, selling site IS important) maybe hmm a little earlier than with 3 months delay?? if dragoneer and other admins/mods started acting like this, honestly this would be the best place to post artwork on the whole internet.
I also don't think Neer would be dishonest on purpose, same with what happened with your ban, call me naive on that ;)
https://www.furaffinity.net/journal/6588505/
He chose between multiples offers the one that was the "best", or the "less bad".
I personally won't blame him for that, I wouldn't blame him either if he'd decide to give up.
Now you can tell me his journal is full of lies, maybe it is, I don't know and you don't either.
The question was not really answered. I have a hard time believing all that imvu is going to get out of this is ad space. But maybe changs to the site down the road wil be implemented with imvu's resources helping Neer. Maybe a premium membership like Deviantart has will be implemented? I wouldn't mind seeing that as long as it was optional and didn't impact artists but gives other further profile customization and things like that, I could see something of that nature generating more revenue.
But it doesn't pay to jump to conclusions about what the future may hold. Nothing has happened in the last three months since the aquisition so I will continue to stay and see how things go! Problems with stolen artwork are everywhere, and it hasn't just begun on imvu, and imvu itself is not responsible for the stolen artwork but rather the creators of the items that should be held responsible. I hope everything goes smoothly with this aquisition and that FA will grow and experience the positive changes that had been promised in the past.
Does anyone else find it suspect that a CEO would use a smiley? I have my doubts that this information is coming directly from this Brett fellow.
So yeah, I like professional when getting responses, so I agree with you. But I also feel like this was a no-win situation for him.
The angry people of FA don't actually want answers, they seem to just want to complain.
Anything other than what matches their far-fetched theories is labeled "lies" or "business talk bullshit"
why are people on here still hating on it?
People keep talking about how this exodus attempts have happened before, users that left came back because they couldn't find enough clients, who many times FA seemed to have fucked up badly but it is still here, but they just aren't looking at the big picture. This has been going for the past 3 years, more people that were before "well this is an exaggerated reaction" have gone to "fuck this I'm out" with each major fuck up, but are now treated as people just wanting excuses to make drama. Instead of being seen as people that before saw this as mere drama now taking it seriously.
Each time FA fucks up, it's showing a new hole in how bad the site (not the community) actually is. You can only duct tape a broken mug so many times before it becomes a tangled mess that can't hold any water anymore. Instead of realizing "well this mug won't last that many patched before seriously needing an actual repair" they react as "Well, this mug has had this big problem before but it still can contain liquid, so it will keep containing it in the future even with more cracks!".
Each time there's an exodus attempt, more people make accounts in other sites, more people actually stay there for good, and more people are active there. There will, and mark my words, there will DEFINITELY be a moment where enough people will have accounts and be active in such sites to actually make em as active or even their main, and having artists move and actually be able to have a clientele making the leaving FA not such a harsh penalty, or even a penalty at all. People will still us FA but in time it will be like in DA, their accounts being less and less used till they are outright abandoned.
Either that or the site will die due to having such huge fuck ups that the amount of people outright leaving will be big enough that it's ussability heavily crippled, and it won't have an enough active user base to sustain it.
You partnered with IMVU because they're "creative people" and you hope they'll improve the community? Is this supposed to be some sort of joke?
FA has absolutely nothing in common with IMVU. Musicians are creative, architects are creative, fashion designers are creative-- but that doesn't mean that they have anything to do with a community largely consisting of animal-centric artists. Creativity is a very broad thing, and cramming two groups together just because they're "creative" is about as reasonable as trying to wear a sneaker and a high heel at the same time because they're both shoes.
We all know that this partnership was for ad revenue and only ad revenue. No one is looking at IMVU and thinking "Oh wow, they could really benefit this community!"
Please stop trying to paint this as some clever ploy to enhance the community when it was clearly done for the financial benefit of the site.
Despite the problems that I have read about (supposed problems that are vague) about IMVU, even if this is the death throws of IMVU, FA can still survive and grow from this, sure they have overly puritanical ideals, sure they attempt to sanitize their content to such an extent that it becomes. . . But I digress >.>
Filling the form is free, but getting legal advice in order to have success with the process is not.
Also if you are sure its so easy, then tell
- Pour your capital into a dying business to help it grow
- Expect little to nothing in return save for a smidge more publicity for your own company
- Watch your company miraculously grow as a result
Times sure have changed!
http://imgur.com/a/oAtuI
(32 pages of stolen artwork in Imvu, 27 per page, a total of 864 stolen pieces. And thats just for one kind of item, there are another hundreds and thousands of other stolen items in different cathegories,)
http://i.imgur.com/md5jjxj.jpg
A lot of websites require copyright violations to be reported using a DMCA notice and not through trouble ticketing systems, they do this to maintain their safe harbour provisions so that they can't be sued for copyright violations. Alternative methods do not offer safe harbour.
Also, IMVU's trouble ticketing system is available through the 'Get Support' button located on http://www.imvu.com/help/help_iframe.php
> The artist shouldn't have to file a DMCA.
I don't see why not?
> The fact that the artist themselves has to initiate something to have art taken down is asinine.
Actually, that's not accurate. A legal representative of the copyright holder is all that is necessary to send a DMCA. Copyright holders can easily grant anyone to be their representative.
> Literally anybody can say "hey this is stolen" and they can't do jack shit about it either besides alerting the artist!
They can ask the artist if they can represent them and then submit the DMCA take-down notice themselves?
> What a piss poor way to run a website
I get the impression you've never actually ran a major user content driven provider before.
And people are basically going "wah i have to stand up for myself? why cant others do it for me?" when it comes to DMCAs.
It's a fairly simple (once you have done it at least once) process that doesn't require a lawyer or even any fees. But they still want to put everything on IMVU.
I've even seen some people who were under the impression that IMVU should magically know if something is stolen. How are they to know it is stolen if the artist doesn't come tell them?
Any random person can say "Hey! that's stolen!" but that doesn't mean this random person is right. Someone could come and say that about my art I have on there. If IMVU acted on every random person's "thief" cry then it could very easily be abused to attack people who are doing nothing wrong.
A DMCA is not a big deal. It just requires people to actually do something, which apparently, a lot of people feel they shouldn't have to.
However, myself and other users of IMVU who have AP are working to help clear this. We take screencaps of the content and work with others to find artists and provide them with everything they need to DMCA the products.
You could compare it to, say, someone's kid breaking your window. A ticketing system is the equivalent of you and them coming to an agreement over fixing the window; it solves the issue without involving courts or the law, to the satisfaction of both parties. Using just DMCA is like that person demanding you take them to court if you want to get a penny out of them.
The law is a system of recourse that's supposed to be used when citizens can't work things out among themselves, not be the only rules they ever follow. What IMVU is doing is the minimum it has to do to avoid breaking the law.
You can, but in doing so, you forgo the safe harbour provisions.
> You could compare it to, say, someone's kid breaking your window. A ticketing system is the equivalent of you and them coming to an agreement over fixing the window; it solves the issue without involving courts or the law, to the satisfaction of both parties.
Sure, however you don't get the safe harbour provisions, so if someone involved doesn't like the way it was handled because they don't agree with how it was handled (let's say an algorithm for comparing images wasn't able to distinguish a trick like multi-layered transparency layers in a gif) and failed to work. That agreement is now brought into question and safe harbour will not protect you. A good example of this is the lawsuits YouTube had to deal with, related to their copyright infringement detection technologies.
> What IMVU is doing is the minimum it has to do to avoid breaking the law.
They wouldn't be breaking the law (it's not a crime) by not accepting a DMCA take down, only exposing liability for a civil suit.
(Youtube actually won the lawsuit they had with Viacom, not sure if you mean that one)
With the example: if the guy stiffed you on his promise to fix the window you could then take him to court, it's just you don't have to get the law involved automatically. If he said you had to take him to court to get anything out of him, he's doing the minimum the law requires him to.
There is nothing illegal about saying you don't accept DMCA take-downs. You don't get safe harbour without respecting DMCA take-downs, but that doesn't matter if you even say that or the opposite of that, it's not illegal. If you reject a DMCA take-down for being fraudulent or any other circumstance, you can be taken to court over it and if you are in the wrong, you can be made to pay damages.
> Youtube actually won the lawsuit they had with Viacom, not sure if you mean that one
For YouTube's very specific scenario yes, not for everyone having an agreement. The legal fees for such a defence were imagine prohibitively expensive too.
> With the example
And with my example, I identified that creating contracts/deals outside of the law expose you in other ways that make you liable to civil cases. So, it is not surprising that companies, lawyers would rather use a simple, proven method with little risk to deal with this.
Like I said, as long as you allow users to file DMCAs if your own system doesn't result in a satisfactory outcome, you do not lose your safe harbour status; you only lose it if you ignore DMCA claims and require use of your own system instead. In fact, Viacom specifically did not claim any infringements after Youtube put their content ID system in place because it was proof they were not intentionally violating their IP rights, so having a system of your own can actually strengthen your safe harbour claim by showing you do not knowingly allow infringing content to remain unless the rights holder actually orders you to take it down.
Otherwise, I see this as a completely positive step for FA.
This is a great tool for getting away from this website! I really hope to see you all there!
or, do you believe that good things are in store.
Given that Google Ads are prohibited on sites with adult content (including on sites with adult cartoon/hentai), how do you plan on using their network to advertise here? Only posting Google Ads on general-rated pieces? Most every page I view on this site has porn on it. Or are you hoping they won't notice because a user has to be logged in? Historically Google has taken a pretty firm stance on this, they don't want their advertisers associated with risque content.
Most advertising networks that accept adult sites are exactly the kind of obnoxious and spyware-infested trash that users here are afraid of.
"The ads being delivered come from a top advertising provider for websites (Google ad network) and are screened thoroughly as part of their review process to ensure no spyware/malware is included."
If Google does not allow their ads to be hosted on adult websites, surely they would have a problem with this?
https://support.google.com/adsense/...../4410771?hl=en
"Publishers are not permitted to place Google ads or AdSense for search (AFS) search boxes on pages with adult or mature content. While we recognize that interpretations of adult or mature content may vary across countries and cultures, we hold all publishers accountable to the same content requirements so that we can ensure a safe and healthy global advertising ecosystem.
If you’re unsure about whether or not something might be considered adult content, our general rule of thumb is this: if you wouldn’t want a child to see the content or you would be embarrassed to view the page at work in front of colleagues, then you should not place ad code on it."
Additional searches for adsense + porn reveal people who have asked Google directly and got a reply that pages with Google ads cannot link to pages which contain adult material - so in theory given the front page routinely has this content, even our general art would not be tolerable to Google. I am pretty sure the fact that users must be registered has no bearing on these policies, but I may be mistaken.
The CEO of the company that now owns FurAffinity just said that he plans on adding Google Ads on top of those. Which is basically impossible with FA continuing to serve porn, as I understand it. They've also said that FA will continue to serve porn.
Either I'm missing something, or something isn't right here. I want clarification from the FA administrative staff about the adult art/Google ads issue.
The person is just an obvious posing troll who fails to amuse or be funny, breaking multiple site rules and only ends up being more toxic to the site & FA than what he makes fun of, that's what these drama trolls are
Freedom has it's drawbacks, yet even these occurrences are why I have faith in the site. It's an open forum with a lot of tolerance. Some of the individuals here abuse that.
Yourpicsuitsyourpersonality
you keep saying the same thing over and over
That's the last thing I'll say to you.
'Comment hidden by Administration'
Dragoneer is now an employee of IMVU, therefor FA is being run by IMVU.
"If stolen content is posted on the FA site, the process is likely to stay the same. If stolen art is posted on IMVU, the legal owner of the art can file a DMCA Takedown notice."
Except to even see certain things on IMVU you have to have a paid account, so in other words you have to pay them to file a DMCA Takedown notice to get them to stop someone illegally selling your material on their site, because only the legal owner can file it. Also notice he said, "On the FA site", not on the IMVU site, unless that's a typo/misquote.
No, that's accurate. FA's policy/process for dealing with stolen artwork isn't changing because of the change in ownership. DMCA notices are only required for IMVU.
I understand the compact context makes it slightly awkward to read.
http://imgur.com/a/oAtuI
(32 pages of stolen artwork in Imvu, 27 per page, a total of 864 stolen pieces. And thats just for one kind of item, there are another hundreds and thousands of other stolen items in different cathegories,)
HELP SPREAD THE WORD
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/6607784/
Or are things gonna remain the same and not change at all and FA slowly die off waiting for something to replace it.
Please help spread the message and support this new project. =3
I'm not really sure why I came here, I knew I'd just get angry all over again. What everyone fails to mention is that you're using the very site you seek to destroy...to literally tear apart, as a medium to launch things like this. What everyone fails to remember is that there are submissions here in their millions, circles of friends, connections which, if severed in senseless panic, would be forever lost.
For a single second just stop. Ask yourself what would really happen if the radical, tyrannical changes you're all prophesizing with no proof came to be...then turn to the reasons you all cite for an IMVU acquisition and ask yourself if those changes would make sense.
Well in my life experience FA has always been there for me (and you)...for years. You might curse the ship, the course it's set, the stars it follows...but don't pretend that's not true.
No, of course the link you've posted isn't proposing a split. It doesn't claim that some earthshaking end of FA is imminent, greener grass on fairy tale other sides if we can just brave the initial transitional upheaval of goats gruff. Not at all.
As an addendum; FA isn't the end all, be all. Shit happens, such is life. Sometimes you gotta start anew, but need to do what is best. Nothing lasts forever.
You're right on all four counts, and I respect your feelings. I get that this seems like the end of an era to you.
What saddens me is that you're trying to hasten that end, force a new start, and maybe you think that's best. I disagree with what you're doing though.
Our lives are not determined by what happens to us but how we react to what happens, not by what life brings us but the attitude we bring to life.
When we meet real tragedy in life, we can react in two ways - either by losing hope and falling into self-destructive habits, or by using the challenge to find our inner strength.
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/6610899/
Barely a time goes by anymore when there isn't at least one up, sometimes two.
I know that they are getting special ad treatment but there's a difference between getting your name out there and ramming it down your throat.
They make the fucking world go round.
FurAffinity for life bitches. HEIL FENDER
Can we get a better answer, something akin to: "We're going to use the ads to make revenue." or "The sheer user base will get us money from page-clicks" or "We plan on selling a share or two or three to an outside party, because we're reselling the pieces of FA for profit."
So, please elaborate on what you mean by "Something more valuable for IMVU?" because as it stands, that sounds scary-secretive.
4. Data Use, User Created Content, and Privacy
4.1 - When you upload content to Fur Affinity via our services, you grant us a non-exclusive, worldwide, royalty-free, sublicensable, transferable right and license to use, host, store, cache, reproduce, publish, display (publicly or otherwise), perform (publicly or otherwise), distribute, transmit, modify, adapt, and create derivative works of, that content. These permissions are purely for the limited purposes of allowing us to provide our services in accordance with their functionality (hosting and display), improve them, and develop new services. These permissions do not transfer the rights of your content or allow us to create any deviations of that content outside the aforementioned purposes.
It it just me or does that sound like IMVU owns all our work now?
"These permissions are purely for the limited purposes of allowing us to provide our services in accordance with their functionality (hosting and display)..."
Unlimited License =/= transfer of ownership.
As far as I know - feel free anybody to correct me.
This is rather telling 17699 Users online — 6179 guests and 11520 registered the numbers on this sight online right now says a lot. . .
At least from where I come from, no other form of agreement can violate the law (use without authorization from the owner) in any way, shape or form, even if you agree on it (You're forced to in most cases).
A full exchange of copyright must be done in writing and signed according to US law, which is the law FA operates under. If you didn't sign something, neither FA nor IMVU owns your stuff.
A submission ToS like FA's is just establishing that they have a limited right to your work in the context of actually running the service. This is not some diabolical plan that's exclusive to them. For example, here's the same language on Photobucket:
When you make your Content public, you grant us a worldwide, non-exclusive, royalty-free license (with the right to sublicense) to copy, distribute, stream, post publicly display (e.g. post it elsewhere), reproduce and create derivative works from it (meaning things based on it), anywhere, whether in print or any kind of electronic version that exists now or is later developed, for any purpose, including a commercial purpose.
http://photobucket.com/terms
Flickr (standard Yahoo ToS)
For photos, graphics, audio or video you submit or make available on publicly accessible areas of the Yahoo Services, you give to Yahoo the worldwide, royalty-free and non-exclusive licence to use, distribute, reproduce, adapt, publish, translate, create derivative works from, publicly perform and publicly display the User Content on the Yahoo Services:
A) for the purposes for which that User Content was submitted; and
B) for the purpose of promoting the Yahoo property to which the User Content was submitted or the Yahoo Services anywhere on the Yahoo network or in connection with any distribution or syndication arrangement with other organisations or individuals or their sites.
http://info.yahoo.com/legal/eu/yahoo/utos/en-gb/
Gyazo:
Nota, Inc. does not claim ownership of the Content placed on a User’s User Project. By submitting Content to Nota, Inc. for inclusion on your User Project, you grant Nota, Inc. a world-wide, royalty-free, and non-exclusive license to reproduce, modify, adapt and publish the Content solely for the purpose of displaying, distributing and promoting your User Project on Nota, Inc.'s Internet properties. This license exists only for as long as you continue to be a Nota, Inc. customer and shall be terminated at the time your Account is cancelled.
https://gyazo.com/doc/terms
And so on.
You're only allowing us to do this within the scope of FA (plus any development sandbox or similar the techs might be working with - that's what the improve them/develop new services part is about), and important to note is that display/publishing rights are not the same as copyright. As the copyright holder, you have the power to grant these rights.
Note that the clause also specifically says it does not transfer the rights to your content. So no, IMVU does not own your content. Legalese is just over-complicated and scary.
Seems I hadn't updated this page in 4 hours and quoting_mungo above basically said exactly what I did but better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gSQg1i_q2g
and in regards to your new argument, Im not aware that they have really done anything except cause some internet arguments. So what exactly am i looking at?
In no way supports the conclusion "they have a public image"
Let me break this down for you into a logical syllogism logically so its easier to understand why what your saying is not convincing.
1. Imvu's target demographic are 14 year old children
2. Any company that has a target demographic of 14 year old children has a public image that can be tarnished
3. Therefore imvu has a public image can be tarnished
Firstly I'm not even sure #1 is true, but even assuming it is #2 has not been shown by you to be true what so ever and as such, your conclusion (3) is not valid.
Sega, a company that sells games for children, was planning to put Michael Jackson in a videogame in the 90's, and in the end they did not due to the political scandals of that singer, because they had a public image to tarnish.
There are thousands of examples like this one, enough to make a very concise and clear statistic.
A LOT of users seemed concerned that the ads coming will be trying to auto-install spyware/malware
The ads being delivered come from a top advertising provider for websites (Google ad network) and are screened thoroughly as part of their review process to ensure no spyware/malware is included.
I thought Google ads had issues with sites containing adult or mature content. Unless that's just Google AdSense.
I can hardly see that it will catch on & that two separate communities will gel if THIS were to go ahead.
Looks like a lot of people are getting ill these days for some reason...
>Noah pls
I was on IMVU way before coming here. But I wasn't an artist then. Now I understand why these artists are so angry. Getting your shit stolen sucks, be it from a random art thief here or Imvu or whatever.
I think the thing I'm not comfortable with is a furry site being owned by a non furry business/community or whatever. And I have seen some good points made here like the site being improved which is always nice and the bad points of course. Like if they decided to change the site up have you pay to post adult content or remove it completely.
Well, only way to know how it's going to go is not abandon ship. Just chill here and see what happens over the next few months.
Then why buy fur affinity ?
"dedicated leader" and "Dragoneer has the vision but was not able to devote his full attention to the site."
shows how dedicated he is /sarcasm
"IMVU is also a community of creative people sharing their artwork - 3D models and fashion creations"
THIS : https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.co.....e141ddb390.jpg
" but FA is being run by Dragoneer, not by IMVU"
Below it says copyrighted IMVU and not Ferrox..... also acquirations do not mean " partnered ...
"We think that by supporting FA they can build a better experience and bigger community and make something more valuable for IMVU, FA and the furry community in general."
We were in debt the last couple of months and had a fundraiser to build the sites servers cause Dragoneer could not afford it so we are not valuable at all.
"The ads being delivered come from a top advertising provider for websites (Google ad network) and are screened thoroughly as part of their review process to ensure no spyware/malware is included."
Google to me is not a trusted source of advertisement . Also that means no advertisements for community members via ads and even then , if they keep them , HOW MUCH ADS ARE THERE GOING TO BE cause I am guessing alot ( since this site is not making any money ).
Also if you want to keep this site independent then I would recommend getting all the 3rd party ads off cause that would be pretty hypocritical . Also if people download thee IMVU chat program , it still runs in the background with no way of ending the task.
IMVU plans on supporting FA changing the site to make improvements,
Plans as in if it does not go according to their ideals well you know.....
FA is run independently
I do not understand this statement because it seems to be one of the most horrible decisions for a website to do . A website company needs to understand that anything they do Can/Can not RUIN THEIR Reputation . So if anything BAD happens here it is on IMVUS CALL TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT and not let it sit because they will be losing money + users due to this situation .
OVERALL , No new news . Just the same thing just reworded by IMVUS CEO.
Hell ..... why havent we heard from Dragoneer about it instead of IMVU. We are literally getting NOTHING FROM THE STAFF BESIDES THE ONES FROM THE OTHER COMPANY .
This.
"10) Are any IMVU staff on the administration/mod team?
With exception of Dragoneer (who was brought on to IMVU staff to maintain and run the site), IMVU is hands-off and the site will continue to be run as it always has been: by furries, for furries."
and this statement :
"IMVU plans on supporting FA changing the site to make improvements, "
In the first month, IMVU will have the following expenses:
Initial investment= 20,000 dollars
Paying a group of coders, let them be four coders. A professional coder earns around 128,000 per month, so lets assume a month of work for 10,600 * 4= 42,400 dollars
Paying Dragoneer, who is an IT or he claims to be, costs around 4,166 per month
(sources of salary:http://www.payscale.com/ )
In total, IMVU is expending 66,566 dollars in the first month and not even considering hardware improvements... and IMVU wants us to believe they are going to recover that money AND make a profit with mere Ad revenue. Isn't that insulting our intelligence?
Yeah, they may say that furries are magically going to log into install the 3D chat client and buy their products.... but just look at all these comments. How many furries do really seem willing to pay their money to be into a chat with horrible nekos and no adult content at all? Everyone preffers SL since looks better and is way less expensive.
Similarly, Expedia owns Expedia, Hotwire, Hotels.com, Trivago, Orbitz, Travelocity, and more... but they all operate under the same management as before. nothing changed.
For those familiar with Empire Carpet and Luna in Chicagoland, Empire bought out Luna as a competitor, but Luna still operates as its own entity.
Point I'm getting at is that it's actually pretty normal to buy something out and leave it alone. What IMVU sees in it, is a mystery to me, but the practice itself does not raise a flag to me.
In other words, you know nothing and you are just speaking whatever comes to your mind in a childish attempt to troll. Show me some math and then I will believe you, manbaby :^)
You yourself are actually just speaking whatever comes to your mind in a childish attempt to troll. You have absolutely nothing to prove any of your statements. All you have is simple speculation of what will happen. Basically, you're concerned about a "what if". It's like "What if IMVU is lying and they change everything" is really all you have to go on. By same logic I can argue "What if IMVU is telling the truth and... nothing changes." Truthfully, your speculation is no more valid or invalid than any one else's. However, the difference between us is I don't have to hide behind a block button when I can't convert the unbeliever, and I' not trying to comment on as many people as possible like you.
BTW, how was your day today? ^_^
Yeah whatever manbaby, where is your math? I can't take you any seriously without math :^)
PS: HI MAGIC-RENA! Still stalking this conversation and commenting on as many different people as you can, I see. I wonder how long it will take for you to comment on this despite the fact you blocked me. ^_^
To answer the last response though: I don't even know the other user. Do you have dementia?
Or possibly gullible... All you need is a little bait and you're there. It's like clockwork. ^_^
Baby troll.
Now, can do you math or are you too much of a manbaby to do it? :^)
2nd. Don't you get it? I've been TRYING to make you stop responding to me ever since my very 1st response to you when I politely said "I didn't give your post 2 seconds of my time as far as reading goes. But I do hope you have a nice day... doing whatever it is you're doing."
But then you just kept commenting, over and over and over. Being the mathematical mature genius that you are, you of course have to have the last word. At this point I'm simply entertained by the fact that I have irked you SO much that you actively SEEK out my comments to respond. Since you've blocked me, I've had to reply to myself, which won't alert you to my comments, which PROVES you are actively harassing me by seeking me out. But.... that never did occur to you, did it? That at this point I'm simply seeing how long I can drag this out before you finally just.... give up. Someone as mature as you claim to be would have stopped responding by the 3rd comment.
As I said before... you won't stop out of some misguided sense of self righteousness.... and I won't stop because you're just too much fun! XD
It is refreshing to know that wanna-be trolls can't do any math at all.
Funny, I told YOU to show me YOUR math, not your rhetoric, but all I see is a paragraph devoid of numbers so I assume you are unable to do simple math.
Or is it simply that one cannot prove a speculative hypothesis developed out of concern of a possible scenario using mathematical equations? I like how I can use your own words against you, but be polite about it. You certainly showed me up on the maturity factor. You go, Magic! ^_^
2.3 - Violations of the following sections may be escalated immediately to the 7th Offense Level: 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 1.4. These sections have been highlighted for your convenience.
So much for a trap, you keep adressing to me after blocking you, thus breaking that rule even after I reported you yester.... oops, shouldn't have mentioned that plot twist. My bad.
I have read the majority of comments, and while I do find some of the others aggravating, I find you more annoying than everyone. I kindly ask you stop pestering DBY because you have brought nothing to the argument other than insults. You insult him and ask for math, but you also failed to do the math. You are just a troll, so, I think this song fits you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nS-QeM2ne8
I mean look. you've already said you were actually going to leave me alone and stop giving my comments the time of day, and here we are, once again you are commenting. You keep commenting to me, so it keeps showing in my messages, and so here I am! Without your responses in my inbox, I'm not going to go out of my way to seek out this journal and go through these hundreds of comments. Pffft, forget that. It really is that simply, you stop commenting to me, I stop seeing it in my inbox, and I stop caring to come back to this journal.
I'm being legit serious. The moment you stop replying to my comments, is the moment I stop. Plain and simple. I'd even change my avatar back because I'd stop caring at that point.
Also, that gives leeway to IMVU to sue users from violating their TOS and acting in bad faith. How that sounds for you?
And to be honest, just looking at this entire conversation and all the comments its generated with how people are negatively reacting simply because it's IMVU and not because of the "shady" practice... is it really all that much of a surprise as to why they decided to keep it quiet previously? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it was the WISE choice, I'm simply saying with how much people are freaking out about it, is it any wonder? As they say in the business world, it's often better to do something and ask forgiveness later than to gain permission first.
Besides, how many more people do you think it would have pissed off if they were upfront about it, asked for opinions and feed back, got all these negative responses, but went and did it anyway? I'm willing to bet even more people would be even more furious. But this is all speculation, and I suppose we'll never really know the answer.
So, they didn't promise anything to anyone here.
And, two wrongs don't make a right. If I'm gonna be rejected and I know I will, acting behind the curtains and only coming out when it's too late it's pretty much the worse way to deal with the sittuation. It's the equivalent of an 'in your face' attitude: 'Yeah, I bought it already, what can you do other than whine about it?'
On your hyphotetical case of IMVU being upfront about it, at least would give users time to consider what to do. In the current scenario, all users were caught off guard and were left in the mist about anything. Is this how IMVU intends to gain our trust? Cause that goes well with the thing about nothing being upfront about the acquirement deal: the worst manner possible of dealing with a sittuation. It's pretty much like you're being judged and sentenced and you only found about it when the cops showed at your doorstep with an order to imprision you.
To be honest, re-reading the journal, the terminology is vague enough and worded well enough that even if we could potentially try and say breach of contract because they did not follow what they said they would and would not do here, it would probably still get through. So, you have a valid point on that aspect of things.
As for your analogy, a rather creative one. I actually rather like it. But in all honestly, even if they were upfront and "gave users time to consider what to do" and to let it soak in.... if we think the end result wouldn't have been the same overall panic, "Find me on <website>" journals, and negativity... then we're sadly mistake. While it may or may not have been to quite as grand of a scale.... it still would have occurred.
I presume we could agree that with this situation, this really was a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation for FA/IMVU, regardless if one way would have been a better way to handle than another.
Considering the whole way business and everything was conducted, IMVU deserves every single bit of complaints, whining and drama that is spreading everyday in FA. It's the price to pay for shady business practices and piss poor PR, as well as subestimating the users they should be trying to actually earn trust.
And you couldn't even agree with me that it was a "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation? And here I thought we were actually going to make a break through where we could both nod, shake hands at our agree to disagree, and part ways on civil terms... ;_;
1- The whole DMCA solution doesn't cover people who have no copyright over the material they produce, either because they're hobbyists, can't be bother to do so, don't have money to do so or other reasons.
2- The whole DMCA solution doesn't cover people who have copyright over their material but no money to pursue legal action against a user or IMVU itself. And before you say 'free attorney', a free attorney is as efficient in a court case as no attorney at all, especially if you have no knowledge to pressure said attorney into pursuing your needs.
3- The whole DMCA solution doesn't cover people who aren't residents of the United States.
4- Since you have to pay in order to see mature content in IMVU, a user can very well steal adult content from your account and make money off it. If you have no money to do the age verification thing or don't want to make an IMVU account, you're a sitting duck.
In fact, the only stuff I've really said pertaining to Art Theft and IMVU is along the line of whether you post it here, Sheezy, Weasyl, DA, Ink Bunny, Facebook, or anywhere on the internet, you still run the same risk of it being stolen, so the source of the original upload doesn't really affect it all that much, Is it MORE LIKELY to happen here since IMVU owns FA now? I can certainly agree that it would be a legitimate concern, but it doesn't mean posting one's artwork on another site instead of FA will stop it from being stolen.
It's THIS thought process I have an issue with because the way many people are behaving/portraying it, it sounds like you're guaranteed your art will be stolen on FA now VS posting any where else online is guaranteed not to be stolen. Again, I am NOT saying this is how YOU are presenting it or acting, I am simply saying the behavior of many seem to portray this train of thought.
A cat in IMVU (warning, might cause conjunctivitis): http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2.....66-d4wkrry.jpg
And if you answered that on a test, you'd fail.
The only piece of info here is that if you have art stolen, you need to file a legal document to get it removed from IMVU.
Absolutely nothing else contained any information of any use whatsoever.
So basically, expect more of the same, only more assclowns at the top to feed you bullshit.
Yep.
In the first month, IMVU will have the following expenses:
Initial investment= 20,000 dollars
Paying a group of coders, let them be four coders. A professional coder earns around 128,000 per month, so lets assume a month of work for 10,600 * 4= 42,400 dollars
Paying Dragoneer, who is an IT or he claims to be, costs around 4,166 per month
(sources of salary:http://www.payscale.com/ )
In total, IMVU is expending 66,566 dollars in the first month and not even considering hardware improvements... and IMVU wants us to believe they are going to recover that money AND make a profit with mere Ad revenue. Isn't that insulting our intelligence?
Yeah, they may say that furries are magically going to log into install the 3D chat client and buy their products.... but just look at all these comments. How many furries do really seem willing to pay their money to be into a chat with horrible nekos and no adult content at all? Everyone preffers SL since looks better and is way less expensive.
First off - yeah, they know they don't stand to make any money of this website, ever. Look at microsoft with everything from their tablets to phones to the Xbone in the last 2 years. do you think they predict that product line or any service they offer will ever turn a profit? the answer is a big fat no, not in this lifetime not ever. they're betting that peeps will be attracted to their SL alternative, nothing more.
SL is on its way out garbage as is any 3d avatar world e-fuck fetish nightmare trash, along with IMVU. They're likely trying to attach themselves to anything possible to not die. or did the 500%^ pop decrease of SL from 2007-2015 of SL not clue things in, they're ghost towns.
Just calm down, and if you must, quietly make preparations for if, IF, things do go downhill. Then you can all run off and leave IMVU reeling. However, as I said, it is doubtful that they actually do want to do much more than put some ads up on the site. Perhaps you'll see some optional integration options or other such stuff, but, I am fairly certain they are too intelligent to do something drastic and wreck the userbase.
This is what I think of the whole situation.
How are we supposed to trust our "Dedicated" leader to have our best interests at heart when he can't even recruit a reasonable number of moderators to handle problems and requests?
Do you plan on making records of notes and artwork or journals that are taken down so people can't get away with art theft and then removing it before your team is able to respond, thus allowing them to break the rules?
(Srsly, check his twiter and you will see)
Those that are going away from FA, please. PLEASE go ahead and leave. Don't reply or make comments. You are no longer part of the community here because you chose that, so why are you still here? Go! Shoo! Take your stick in your butt and waddle away!
But honestly, what was it about my grammar was off? Sometimes i can't see it. I do have trouble forming comprehendable sentences in person sometimes, and i try to make things clearer when written. My speech patterns seem to bleed through, but to some degree, i like that. It can add personality to words if done correctly. Perhaps I have some kind of speech impediment? Would you like to make fun of that too, big man?
Things i know about: i rarely capitalize i's because i don't find myself that important enough to warrant the effort of holding down the shift key. I know i get mixed up with keeping the same tense between sentences. I use ellipses a lot to emulate thought pauses. I make run on sentences sometimes because i have a lot of things going on in my mind and go back to insert those thoughts in the sentences, but i usually break things up coherently. I start a sentence with the subject instead of making a complete sentence.
If i know these things, why do i not change my habits? Because i don't give a fuck and as long as i can be understood clearly, that's all i care about. I have enough things that stress me out, i don't need to nitpick at my slight grammar faux pas. There are much bigger things to worry about...but that doesn't mean i'm not curious about the mistakes.
But anyway, i don't find the concerns idiotic, i find those that have already chosen to leave to continue to stick around to bitch about it idiotic. i find the whole "no to IMVU" icon fad thing idiotic as well, because the deal is done and no amount of protest will reverse it. It only heightens your stress in doing so.
However, i did not say those that are not for the IMVU thing and staying should not voice their opinion, did i? i said the ones that are leaving to go ahead and move on. Why voice your opinion if you no longer are associated with the site? IMVU owning the site is not up for negotiation. It's done. no amount of whining will reverse it. If that is your reason for leaving, do so, you are no longer a part of the community here, so what's the point of floating around? Leave. Be happy elsewhere. Let the ones that are staying voice their opinion, not that there's much their opinion will do for the situation.
Depending on the type of ticket you're waiting on, response times will still vary, but we're working to get everything caught up as soon as we possibly can.
I believe a soft-delete system is on the wishlist, but I do not know how easy or feasible it would be to implement with our current codebase.
As for a soft-delete system, it's not like they're reinventing the wheel, I expect that with all this "new funding" from IMVU Dragoneer will have the resources to hire some capable individuals to make it happen. After all... Money is a fantastic motivator.
I understand what you're saying about reinventing the wheel, but please remember that making changes to FA's current codebase is its own unique challenge. We don't want to introduce new functionality that ends up breaking some other portion of the site. We do already accept archive.today links as evidence for Code of Conduct violations, which should help if what you're reporting is a callout journal or similar.
.....Is that too complicated? EDIT: i'm being serious, i'm not trying to be snarky or whatnot, would it be too complicated to do?
Besides the fact that they'll break the site by trying to attempt it, I agree, that would be nice. But this turd of a site prides itself by being polish-resistant.
But you didn't contribute anything, and none of this matters, and now you're stuck arguing my responses because your posts have nothing to defend in themselves. You're a bad writer and your time on the internet has struck you with an intellectual drought. But let me assure you that your precious vore porn will still be here long into the future.
A delightful couple of parragraphs with every sentence written in the basic form of an ad hominem. Now, are you gonna keep this little storm of fallacies or are you gonna try to prove me wrong in anything I have stated in this journal?
Because you clearly don't get what is at stake. Maybe you are too young but back in 2005-2008's the art in here was very primitive. It has advanced because people has given it more dedication and a formal study.
Try using your brain why they did so. And the answer is: because they can sell it. If you fuck with the artist's economy, we will be back to the low quality artworks of a decade ago, because people like Naira will have to find a better way to earn dollars since Imvu will steal everything.
Is that the future you want? Seriously, don't even attempt to run away from this question because I'm damn serious about it: is this the future you want for furry art?
This is a furry DeviantArt. This is not the beacon of your furry community. Sofurry, Inkbunny, Weasyl, all viable alternatives which all operate the same way as FA. This is a popular image hosting site that's rapidly losing funding due to dwindling activity because it's not only competing with alternatives as listed above, but also with Tumblr and other social blogging mediums.
The site has been going downhill for a long time, and your dumb ass is just now seeing it. This is change, yet it's nothing new. If this never happened, then FA would continue to lose funding, beg for more donations, and fail to improve the site as Dragoneer breaks it and fails to set the goals he had planned.
And that's where I'm laughing at you; you're taking this shit seriously yet you forget just how much of a joke FA is. The site is bad. I joined it knowing this, I use it knowing this, and it's idiots like you that make it entertaining.
Get a life. This site isn't important.
But now that you have statd thqt this sitis a joke, then you have lost any possible moral weight you might had, because through that statement you have left pretty clear that you are an in human asshole who doesn't care for the suffering of others.
I asked you a question, and your answer is clear: in the scenario where the furry economy of comissions gets maimed by Imvu, you would just laugh. Thus, you have no word here, nothing you say has any relevance at qll, because your confession has been loud and clear.
I have not lost my humanity unlike you, so I will continue to help others while you lay in the dirt laughing qt the suffering of others.
You're crying about the furry apocalypse over speculation. You don't know what's going to happen, and every factoid and figure has been false. It take more than a google search of "how much does a coder make?" to build a case.
This is a furry DeviantArt. This is not the beacon of your furry community. Sofurry, Inkbunny, Weasyl, all viable alternatives which all operate the same way as FA. This is a popular image hosting site that's rapidly losing funding due to dwindling activity because it's not only competing with alternatives as listed above, but also with Tumblr and other social blogging mediums.
The site has been going downhill for a long time, and your dumb ass is just now seeing it. This is change, yet it's nothing new. If this never happened, then FA would continue to lose funding, beg for more donations, and fail to improve the site as Dragoneer breaks it and fails to set the goals he had planned.
And that's where I'm laughing at you; you're taking this shit seriously yet you forget just how much of a joke FA is. The site is bad. I joined it knowing this, I use it knowing this, and it's idiots like you that make it entertaining.
Get a life. This site isn't important.
It's shit. I use it, and it's shit.
Why do you want to merge with this site?
This isn't a question of your motives, but rather your sanity. This place is a shithole. Why on earth would you want to merge with it?
In the first month, IMVU will have the following expenses:
Initial investment= 20,000 dollars
Paying a group of coders, let them be four coders. A professional coder earns around 128,000 per month, so lets assume a month of work for 10,600 * 4= 42,400 dollars
Paying Dragoneer, who is an IT or he claims to be, costs around 4,166 per month
(sources of salary:http://www.payscale.com/ )
In total, IMVU is expending 66,566 dollars in the first month and not even considering hardware improvements... and IMVU wants us to believe they are going to recover that money AND make a profit with mere Ad revenue. Isn't that insulting our intelligence?
Yeah, they may say that furries are magically going to log into install the 3D chat client and buy their products.... but just look at all these comments. How many furries do really seem willing to pay their money to be into a chat with horrible nekos and no adult content at all? Everyone preffers SL since looks better and is way less expensive.
Goodness where can I get a job with this kinda pay? Or did you mean pr year?
Other than that, I agree with your statement. IMVU has an interest in FA, and it's not the adrevenue that FA currenly has. I think we must expect the "furry community ads" that bring in a rather low income to be replaced with real product ads. What else we may expect, i have no idea. But a company like IMVU does not buy FA just to be nice, and keep everything as is, they expect to get something out of it, something financial most likely.
A.) We don't actually know how much a coder is being paid at IMVU, and I can gaurantee it's not six figures. Most coders I knew at game studios were not at all near six figures, and they knew if they wanted that kinda money they could go work for a bank or a law firm to get that pay scale. You don't take into account that this is neither of those and that the cost of a coder in this case is definitely not 128k. Probably closer to around 60 to 80.
B.) My coders were rarely working one project non stop all month long. They often had to bounce between projects. They'd be allotted [through Jira or some other time management system] about a week or so worth of time on different projects if they were that kinda coder. for IMVU, this can be different things. Like perhaps the back end of the IMVU service, IMVU site, obviously FA now, and whatever hidden projects they're prototyping before releasing to the public. A coder's time at least in my personal work experience, has never been on one project for an entire month. YAY for the world we live in and the need for multitasking.
Why do you think Dragoneer opened for donations every five minutes in the past? It's obvious the ad revenue doesn't even cover the site minimum costs, making any profit impossible
Some users may flow into imvu yeah, but just look at the comments in this and the 5 previous journals. Do YOU really think many people here is willling to pour their wallet into imvu? Most people here either preffer SL or already hate Imvu or both, so no, there's not gonna be a magic increase of imvu users due to this acquisition.
It's obvious they are lying, I don't get how can you deffend such an obvious lie.
Of course Imvu will win money, but now I do preffer to see that capital influx towards the artists and not towards a company whose work is the definition of mediocrity.
And you conveniently sidestep the fact that you way overestimated the amount people make in programming. Can you address this specifically?
Of course, we are assuming that Imvu's intention is to earn money and not willingly burn it like they were charity.
As long as the sale does not go against any of the agreements between user and site, there is little we can do. If something has value, the owner can choose to sell it to the highest bidder. This is business. We can argue that "a site like FA should be communitiy run", well, it isn't, if we wanted that we should have gone to a site that was, long time ago. Check the organisational type of the site you register for, and see if it complies with what you expect to make sure it can not be sold, if this is a requirement.
I do not buy into the "everything will be as before". There is not enough profit in todays FA for a company to be interested in keeping it "as is". My initial guess is that ad-space will be more expencive, and furry ads that give low income will be replaced with ads from companies with higher ad-budgets. FA has a lot of users, the ad revenue could be a lot higher. But again, this is part of business. We do not like it, we take our business elsewhere. We are ok with it, we keep our business here. Plain & simple.
There were many furry sites prior to FA, and FA will not be the final "main furry site". Nor is it impossible for people to spread over several sites and give a situation where we have several large, living sites. We do not need any one site to become a "furry facebook". Facebook is too dominant. No site should be like this in furry fandom.
I cannot confirm or provide proof of this other person's claim, but I just wanted to throw that out there, that Dragoneer was APPARENTLY not the only owner and therefore didn't have the right to sell. I guess we'll see how this goes.
Fun Fact: He's the guy responsible for a hefty chunk of the "hacking" attacks FA endured way back, and a general troll/griefer. He'd been perma-banned several times, but it always got lifted because Neer's an SA goon and usually only makes permabans stick when the person wasn't >intentionally< making trouble. The current permaban he's on, which seems to have stuck so far, was earned when he heard someone he didn't like had been murdered in his own home by a roommate, so this wonderful individual went and trolled the murder-victim's FA page.
Watch 4k of those guests be a running script or something that makes it look like more users are on.
That or those are 5k users from IMVU that are looking to steal your art and sell it. =D
Blame the lawmakers for making this DMCA take-down nonsense so complicated.
However, I was implying that if the law granted harsher penalties to sites which host "stolen" material (e.g remember what SOPA promised to do? Oddly, many of these same people protested that with all their might.) then not IMVU nor any other site would be able to hide behind paywalls and would actively have to police their own sites to ensure there is no unauthorized content in use.
IMVU is shit.
I happen to have a few Really good friends that use IMVU and they are not thieves nor are they bad people, they simply go there to stay in touch with friends they have made and enjoy each others company. I did not care for the avs at IMVU nor the practices of how they let things get out of hand. There Acquisition of FA was really a bad idea in that they had so much stolen work on their site. Though just because some art is stolen remember not all of it is. They have artists and creators on their site as well. IMVU as a company may have there problems, but lets not go throwing them all under the bus. the same could be said for FA in all honesty, We have had managers that have lied and broken promises for so many years now. We have had how many controversies over misappropriated funds, we have users that steal and tickets that never get answered.
In all honesty when you consider all the facts, IMVU as a company, is about as crappy as those that white knighters protect. I am not saying this to be rude to dragoneer or the admins, all I am saying is do not go casting stones at all of one group, when its the company some thieves that your ire is really against. The truth of the matter is, they are reading our forums as well and seeing all the IMVU hate, and they also were taken totally by surprise because they were not told either about the acquisition. they too are just as upset as we are. they have very strict guidelines and Age Verification, When they have almost no verification here. the Adults are a bit upset because IMVU buying a site that is considered the HOLE of pornography in the fur fandom, Makes 0 to NO sense to them.
I Know its easy to turn your rage on all of them and say they are all thieves when you see their catalogue so littered with stolen art, But I have known a few of their users and again they are just as shocked and they were just as blind sided as we were. they are reaching out to us and they feel bad that our site, our home was ripped out from under us. Then Furs from our site go over there and start hating on all of them and tossing up their rage, its not helping the matters. They are being nice about things and we are the ones SCREAMING IMVU is full of thieves. the truth is they are not, there is really a lot of good people there, so please do not think that all the people who play IMVU are sneaking over here prowling your art to steal it. Most are really decent people that create their own art and build meshes to share with their community.
Do I agree that IMVU should never have stepped in to FA and tried to take over a site that is the main hub of the fandom yes. Do I think we as furries have a voice and should be willing to stand up and voice ourselves as a form of protest sure, Do I think IMVU the company is lying to us and not making any sense, absolutely they are. I do not buy they are doing this for charity, that they are paying Dragoneer a salary, tossing money and resources our way for mere ad space. plus the very ads they are saying they want to put up on our site, Google Ads to quote the above CEO, would drop their account from google ads program as it states on Google Ads they are not allowed to post a Google ad on any site that displays adult content. So even their this whole reason by brett makes even less sense. Not to mention if families went to Walmart's Headquarters and told them about this purchase they would lose all their ability to sell cards and it would negatively impact their business.
There is a lot that is not being told to us and they are not going to reveal, but the fact is their CEO is hiding the truth. Dragoneer if he knows something is not telling and that makes us as a community skeptical and defensive. We have every right to be upset, but at the same time we have to be civil and professional or we come off as the monsters that everyone thinks the fandom is made of. Sorry for this long post but I have to clarify Turn your anger toward those that deserve it, not against all of the user base that are not the problem.
In other words, less exposute for the same money. Don't you love Imvu now?
Obviously he doesn't mention the obvious reduction in exposure due to the Imvu ads.
anubiis_werewolf
Is it just me or are the IMVU ads appearing more and more often?
Barely a time goes by anymore when there isn't at least one up, sometimes two.
I know that they are getting special ad treatment but there's a difference between getting your name out there and ramming it down your throat.
See so based on this post I can surmise that he is not blocking the ads and thus he sees the frequency of the ads showing up. If you look at what he is saying that is evidence that he is seeing first hand.
Can't figure out what the fuss is about lols.
All these things do not add up, and then the other big issue is all the stolen art on IMVU, which is simply ridiculous. We as furries would never have known it was even going on til it was brought to light by the Acquisition. Most people here had never heard of IMVU, now that we are exposed to them, by their purchasing of our site, we are exposed and the artists are furious that their art work is being sold without their permission. This is not to say all IMVU users are thieves, in fact that is far from the truth. A lot of users on IMVU are artists and creators as well. They are being just as blind sided as we are. THey were just told about this Acquisition recently, just like we were told.
Anyway that is why there is so much fuss over this acquisition.
Not to mention the amount of traffic on this site is good for IMVU. It's also not IMVU's fault that people are stealing artwork and making money on it. From Strypes journal it sounds like it's very easy to get stolen artwork removed from there and the thief banned. I don't know if it's easier because of this but you can't blame them for thieves. It happens everywhere. Even FA has thieves.
Honestly I think IMVU has a lot to gain from this acquisition and Dragoneer is saved from the headaches of finances and now can just collect a paycheck for running this site. Good for both sides.
As simple as that.
FA X has 24 slots for ads. You are guaranteed 1 hour exposure a day.
Max users who can pay for slots, 24.
Each user gets 1 hour exposure.
Post-IMVU Sale
User X has 24 slots for ads. You are guaranteed 1 hour exposure a day.
IMVU automatically takes 1 [or hell 2 slots?] a day.
Max users who can pay for slots, 23 or 22 a day depending on what IMVU eats.
=====
Every user gets the time they are gauranteed to get through paid ads! IMVU just takes a slot, like everyone else!
Yup, making scenarios that work, as simple as that.
And to the people who say "Oh no, ads!", just use ad-block. If that fails to work then tweak the code in it a little bit and you can use ad-block to cut out a lot more things on Internet browsers - even art advertisements that aren't related to commercial use beyond the extents of this site.
http://imgur.com/mqmkf0s
There's that.
That wasn't a fun few months of scraping the money to get another one so I could actually work
I hope it doesn't happen to anyone else, I hope I just caught it on an Off-day
Regardless I wont be uninstalling it again anyway, just in case. I really can't afford a new laptop and IMVU kinda just said 'sorry about that lol'
IMVU saying that their ads are "safe" because they use google is a lie because those aren't the ads they make money with.
Whatever you do, don't download "Fur Affinity for Desktop edition. Fur Affinity Bulk Uploader. Fur Affinity desktop notification client." or anything of the like in the future.
Coopers being himself at MCFC
Welp. FA finally cracked down on the trollers/spammers.. .-. Anyways...
..How did IMVU/FA find FA/IMVU in the first place?
IMVU announces they want to meet the furries and they will be at Further Confusion 2015.
Under NDA, any details or the deal itself cannot be mentioned for two months.
Announcement of said deal is then mentioned on March 19th, 2015, so that would be about two months~
Hmmmmmm~
If this Fandom wishes not to be bought by outside corporations it must start being able to pay its own people. I'm not anti business. I'm pro Furry business. I want to see this Fandom be a success story. I want to see this Fandom be able to turn away outside companies because it does not need them to survive.
Chairmen, Admins, artists, Furry entrepreneurs, take note. We must build a system which pays for ourselves. Only then can we secure autonomy.
No I don't treat the Fandom as a business, I treat it as a culture.
You want that con sponsored by Monster Energy, watch all your so called hobby art be filled with monster energy too.
my instincts tell me that this won't end well! >.-.>
you know what they say, is too good to be true!
and in the end, it's not a good thing.
I hope I'm wrong, but from what I've seen, I think there's something wrong behind all this. x.-.x
I'm not fully aware of what's going on, but I already know that! >.-.> ....
*I hope I'm wrong! x.-.x *
1. starts charging in here making all the rules,
2. changing things on how this site runs looks or works
3. changes the AUP posting rules to tailor it to THEIR idea of what it should be
4. taking down peoples adult works because IMVU is more moderate and PG than adult of a website/service
5. stealing the artwork/images from this site posting it all up on their own sites.
I was going to leave FA temporarily and try things out with Weasyl.
Inkbunny, Sofurry, and Deviantart dont do much for me anymore and FA became my main solace and furry artwork/mods haven for the longest time.
If the CEO and Dragoneer can assure and promise me none of this will happen... EVER... then I will stay here on FA and not leave because Dragoneer and his admins have ALWAYS been nice, fair, curteous, and honest with me and have never removed my stuff for no reason or broke their own AUP rules to do so *cough cough* WEASYL ADMINS/MODS*cough cough*
I will never go back to Weasyl ever again and NO I DONT CARE IF THEY DONT LIKE WHAT IVE SAID OR CONSIDER IT "TALKING SMACK" about them. Ignorance and rudeness and people who are unfair or hypocritical DESERVE all my scorn, derision, hate, mockery, and anger!!!!
Itried temp leaving FA for Weasyl and uploaded the things there that FA here allowed me to have up and stay up because none of my stuff is gross, offensive, child porn, cub,violent, illegal, or copyright infringing.
Weasyl mods and an admin (not saying who or giving any names as thats a private convo) broke their own rules being hypocritical in removing one of my pieces of art I posted up there.
While they were polite and not rude to me, they were grossly innacurate on their classification of my image as it pertains to their rules and regs about "photography/screen shots" and they behaved wrongly putting on almighty airs as they repeatedly removed my image on NO GROUNDS justified whatsoever.
I was hurt, dumstruck, and furious. I felt betrayed and I felt I could no longer respect or trust them as admins to uphold their own website AUP rules.
It was at this point I threw my hands up and said:
Okay... screw this... I am out of here. You guys are too hypocritical for me."
These people on Weasyl are just as bad as the Deviantart mods and admins who allow a SPECIFIC tpe of pornography artwork and images up on their site but not OTHER kinds and still have the nerve to claim they are an ART SITE not a PORN SITE.
So fed up with Weasyl's drama and nonsense, I pulled all of my artwork and snapshots off of their site... and low and behold now here I am back at FA and just damn happy to be back where Dragoneer, and the other mods, because they dont give me shit about what "constitutes a commission" or throw a damn dictionary excerpt at me or break their own rules or regs AUP hypocritically.
Every time Dragoneer or another mod here on FA has removed my things it has been JUST, FAIR, AND FOR THE RIGHT REASONS because I did break or bend AUP rules that are on this site and they would make that very honestly obvious and not waver from their rules or leave things out when letting me know. And I never had an issue with them.
WEASYL SUCKS. PERIOD. Their admins SUCK. Their rules and regs SUCK. And they dont even back them up or follow their own rules faithfully instead they bend and bury them hypocritically just to give someone a hard time and remove their image.
ITS RIDICULOUS.
Do you really thing that FA's mod's are clean? One of them , is a known dogfucker. Dragoneer likes and has cubporn . They hired on someone with a questionable background on harassing and maybe even raping someone. Not to mention that a crap ton of cub pron lingers on this site for years and years after it's been reported from plenty of people.
and on number 5 , of your list. IMVU is KNOWN to have a ton of stolen artwork thanks to the fact it has user submitted goods. They sell that artwork and get in game currency for art theft. Not to mention that the in game currency you have to pay for so IMVU profits off of stolen items.
There are plenty of other places other then weasyl to put your art , I do like weasyl and I think your excuse for not liking them might be a bit over the top. The point stands there ARE other places to branch out too you are not stuck to just weasyl or FA. I know a lot of people moving to tumblr and since you said you like to upload screenshots/snapshots witch are agiesnt FA's AUP btw unless they are in scraps I believe? Tumblr would be a great place to put them and before anyone say's 'omg if you like SJW ' just don't follow those blogs and turn anon off. That kills about 70% of any 'hate' you might get for idk posting porn. I've never had it happen to me or at least not any SJW's so w/e. But either way other sites are still better then FA.
FA is just as bad as any other place if not worse , ignoring and setting aside their TOS and AUP for their own sake. Banning people on site for offline issues. Lying , broken promises , the code is crap , the site breaks and goes down more often then not.
Just. There are other places is all.
Dragoneer has asked to refrain from such conversations so I am respecting that. If you want to read what I have said then check your private notes, Bittercomplex.
Have a nice weekend! :D
Its ridiculous how all art and profile sites that allow uploading of personal property artwork and copyrighted works function these days or how they word things in their TOS. It seems its all a big game of entrapment. Trapping the artist into accepting these BS terms just to use the site and then thinking they have free reign on ANYTHING the user uploads (even if by law they dont because its the users pic or art not the site admins or owners).
But you have to pay to play the game sadly I guess. What I would do is get all my work legally copyrighted to me at the courthouse and have the paperwork to prove it so if anyone dares try to use it for other reasons than HOSTING the image up on their site they could be sued in the courts going BEYOND just a DMCA takedown.
But then again the courts and Law is another barrell of monkeys... a zoo or circus in and of itself that doesnt always make sense and has tons of "TOS fine print loopholes" in it that if you are not careful you will lose and win nothing.
Frakking IMVU.
There are many copies, and they have a plan.
A) Second life is kind of built for adult content. There are no whiney kids there.
B) Second Life is MEANT to transfer game currency to RL dollars.
C) EVERYTHING in SL is user created, meaning there are no stupid SL Brand Furry avatars.
D) That furry Avatar you just spent 8 or 12 bucks on? about 7.50 to 11.50 of that is actually going to the Furry who made it. And is going to pay their bills and put a roof over their head.
E) They don't made their money packing you full with ad-ware, they make their money off land.
F)Furries have lots of land and are actually very respected because SL relies on us quite a bit.
-A) The only downside is their lazze faire attitute toward their world means everything is community policed, often meaning not policed at all. This has gained it the nickname "The Troll MMO" since you can make anything yourself, and no one is going to really do anything if you drop into a Furry sim and rez and object that spawns a bazillion "pools closed" images and piss everyone off.
This whole sentence makes me more uneasy than anything else vaguely talked about in this Q&A.
It's like saying that guy just stole your wallet, but you can be friends with him if he feels like giving it back to you gingerly.
Like, what backwards shit is this?
You may say, "yeah man so whats th problem bruh"
The problem is that you cant sell porn to people like that, so they DON'T represent a market for artists. In the other hand, they pretty much represent a problem because ART THEFT and because CONCERNED MOTHERS ABOUT IMVU OWNING A PORN SITE.
Usually, thiefs will undersell, hence cutting out any sort of want for the original.
Congratulation! now you understand the point he was trying to get across with that sentence.
My point was only "if someone can get the same thing for cheaper, somewhere else, they will."
People buying said artwork from thieves wont bother if they know its cheaper through them. They wont try to go to the original if they know it will cost more.
And yes personalized commissions do make more money because they are more expensive. I never disputed that fact, unless you mean to say imvu is not making any money off the art thieves cause no one is buying their crap. ... in which case the art thieves are being punished for the trying to sell stuff on imvu already. after all it takes money to upload things to the shop and if no one is buying them, cause as you keep pointing out no one would every buy prints of an artists's previous work, then all they are doing is throwing away money and imvu is making a profit off the stupidity of criminals instead of the sales of stolen products. (which in that case more power to them. they can prey on those idiot bastards as much as they want.
Now, this is the most important thing so PLEASE pay attention. An artist depends of people with money. If the users of FA are going to spend their money in Imvu's chat, whose money goes almost totally to the company, then they will have less purchasing power to buy personalized comissions
That, plus the new restrictions that Imvu will do to the site like premium accounts, will TOTALLY maim the furry economy. It will hurt us all, and the most hurted people will be those who carry the torch of our community: the artists.
Please consider what I just told you. Please think of the artists. PLEASE.
What paid accounts. you mean paid accounts like Deviant art uses? ... yeah that really killed the artist community there. oh not to mention the fact they offer sales of prints through the website. they must really be loosing cash with that. Course there's also the fact they said paid accounts were not in the works. so what you are saying sounds like more lies.
Also IMVU like second life don't make money off the items their users sale. they make money off the purchasing of currency to pay for whatever items the purchaser wants/uploads. if that happens to be a stolen copyright or not, imvu isn't encouraging it nor part of the theft. they have take down procedures in place. if you choose not to defend your copyright that's your problem as you will find out if you every try to take things to court.
Unless you are convinced that Imvu's objective is to loose money at all costs, then they will have to find new ways to squeeze money. Be it premium accounts, be it fees, whatever they do will have an impact in the wallet of people who pays for comissions, and thus EVERYONE looses except Imvu.
Also I already specified that selling items in Imvu does not make as much money as the artist as selling his services in comissions, thus, it is an irrelevant income and they would pretty much earn as little as the thieves, as every transaction will get a cut for Imvu in a situation where only them win.
You really want to see people not being able to afford comissions anymore don't you?
What I think is they see this as a potential for more money. whether it turns out to be a money sink or not depends on what happens. if it is just a money sink then yes we will see more invasive money requests. or the site will shut down. and since you want the site to shut down keep doing what you're doing. IF you actually wanted to support the community and the site then start treating it like an artist you support.
I want to save the artists from getting further scammed by Imvu and Dragoneer. It's all I want.
you aren't even protesting anything that's happening. you're protesting what if's that your paranoid mind has come up with. that's not helping. find the facts first then you can complain. otherwise you're just yelling at clouds.
It's actually something pretty easy to see if you just look at the numbers. Forget the good intentions, as those are just words decived to deceive fools.
heh I've had that thought about scientist and creationist for awhile now. Course I never did like creationists. they aren't logical and tend to insult people for their grammar and the like.
wait... when was I finding mysterious ulterior motives? frankly I've only been taking things at face value. are you reading your own comments? your the one coming conspiracy theroies and calling people liars when you have no proof. maybe you should read up on Occam's razor.
Thus, how longer do you like it? How much will these guys hold the facade and start charging for every single thing? Companies hate loosing money ya know?
Think of this as a collision problem. Before the collision between two solids take place, you already know that they are going to collide even if you don't have the result of the experiment yet. You believe that a miracle will happen, but I preffer to be skeptical and realistic.
Well if you are so certain that that's going to happen, why are you still here? just leave and give the rest of a break. since you hate this site so much stop trolling and leave. go yell at those clouds somewhere else. you are doing nothing to help the community here by doing that.
I leave you with this little get written by someone pretty at the beggining of this journal. Read it and try to understand:
"I think I missed this lesson in the business classes I went to.
- Pour your capital into a dying business to help it grow
- Expect little to nothing in return save for a smidge more publicity for your own company
- Watch your company miraculously grow as a result
Times sure have changed!
Also I ask you, if you don't care about the furry economy getting destroyed by Imvu's predation, then why don't you kill artists yourself? That way it would be faster, rather than slowly letting them die by starvation at the hands of Imvu.
This isn't someone selling stolen goods not being legally required to give up the money they got. This is thieves giving stolen goods to a pawnshop, them getting paid in candy, and when the police go to the pawnshop, they might arrest and sentenced some of the thieves (yeah I know a trial has to go and a judge to actually do that, but that doesn't happen in websites so, Judge Dredd justice system I guess), and when they see the pawnshop owner being completely aware of where their goods come from... they just wave him and leave as he sells the stolen goods for money instead of such stolen goods ,whose owners are known, being confiscated and eventually returned to them, they just leave it to em so they guy sells em for actual money.
Except these stolen goods, in contrast to real life ones, are replenisheable so the thieves are of no need to the pawnshop owner once they bring him the goods.
This.
With imvu once they take the items down form the shop I would assume they delete the object from their database, thus anyone who had a link to that object would be out the item and the money they spent. at least that how it works with second life where the same money system is in play.
So regardless of the merge, from what I understand, the FA website will stay the same without IMVU sticking their fingers into how it operates, what is uploaded here, and has no rights to take down the adult works from artists here on the website.
Apparently that was the agreement. Dragoneer KEEPS OWNERSHIP and RUNS FA indefinitely, and all IMVU gets is a secured investment of a site with which to post up all their IMVU ads which helps them attract more people to IMVU and makes them more money by the partnership.
Anyone on here stating that IMVU now OWNS and OPERATES FA because of the merger is not reading everything that was posted from IMVU and Dragoneer and is making up hearsay rumours and false flag fears about this.
Only when I actually SEE the AUP or TOS of FA change with incorporated IMVU policies and begin to SEE OR WITNESS IMVU taking down artist's adult artwork from this site to suit their PG rating through this connection, will I believe IMVU OWNS and OPERATES FULLY IN CONTROL OF FA.
This is not the case and the exact opposite is being said. People are fearmongering right now and panicking.
There is NO PROOF of these conditions in the sales terms of agreement that Dragoneer and IMVU have made because they have not POSTED the agreement for all of us to see. Until that happens... no one can really truly honestly say if that is how it is going to go down.
We just have to WAIT AND WATCH for it to happen... or ask and wait for Dragoneer or IMVU to make public the sales terms and agreement to FA artists and users.
Until then it's all speculation, fear, and panicking from users stating these things as fact without any proof to back it up.
"Fur Affinity is © 2015 IMVU"
. . . the shit they're spouting out is typical PR nonsense, but saying that IMVU doesn't own FA is absolutely silly. That's the ... that's exactly what an acquisition is. They acquired the site. Dragoneer has said on his twitter that he's not in charge of FA's finances anymore as well. IMVU is. He's just an employee - which means he can be fired at any time. I'm not sure where you're getting YOUR sources but the site WAS SOLD.
https://twitter.com/Dragoneer/statu.....61131243356160
Dragoneer himself said he still owns, is in charge of, and runs FA and not IMVU. IMVU is also making this claim concurring with him that they have only FUNDED FA to help Dragoneer do more with the site in exchange for ad space and simply merging the communities.
Now... if this is not true and is a complete lie and IMVU DOES in fact own FA and is running the show and the site... how come they are saying the complete opposite in the journal posts?
Now I am really confused lol.
BTW thanks for the fave. ;)
He claims he's still in charge because he is - which he's said, you know, that he's their employee. How long that will last, who knows. And companies lie all the time for damage control. They've claimed they will only make changes to "improve" the site as well ... If you read all the comments, they're all over the place, not to mention just, well you know, very spin doctory.
I definitely couldn't ignore the Twitter for this though, considering that IS from the horse's mouth!
Does this mean they have rights to our artwork and images to do so as they please with it now?
Since the policies state that "FA" which means technically now means "IMVU" reserves the right to...
4. Data Use, User Created Content, and Privacy
4.1 - When you upload content to Fur Affinity via our services, you grant us a non-exclusive, worldwide, royalty-free, sublicensable, transferable right and license to use, host, store, cache, reproduce, publish, display (publicly or otherwise), perform (publicly or otherwise), distribute, transmit, modify, adapt, and create derivative works of, that content. These permissions are purely for the limited purposes of allowing us to provide our services in accordance with their functionality (hosting and display), improve them, and develop new services. These permissions do not transfer the rights of your content or allow us to create any deviations of that content outside the aforementioned purposes.
From: http://help.furaffinity.net/article.....rvice-TOS.html
D: ???
Should I be worried and remove all my images from here? Or just keep them here and deal with it and go with the flow to see what happens?
For the moment? I'd just make sure everything you have is watermarked. Heavily. IMVU is full of thieves (users) that steal regularly from FA, and you can't get to the things to issue a DMCA without going through a paywall! Then there's the fact that IMVU owns FA now so technically we have to abide by their rules too, and there hasn't been any LEGAL (ie, TOS changes) precendent that they can't do whatever with our work.
Not to mention IMVU is 'family friendly,' so who knows what other policies they're going to implement. Basically, I'd definitely keep an eye on it, and don't be surprised if stuff changes.
But its time and it had to be done to protect myself. I will find another art site who's TOS protects the artist with their works or I will post NOTHING publically at all ever again.
Good luck to you hun! Thanks for all the info. ;)
Just make you watermark everything clearly, in whatever way that you can, and be watchful of what's going on.
Don't download IMVU either, and block their ads. Malware's in both.
Also, if you do have to file a DMCA, be warned that you'll have to give your personal information (name, etc).
Don't give out your SSN easily either, if you have one.
Meanwhile this Weasyl site I never paid much attention to because FA was still a thing is AMAZING! Its like FA if FA actually did all the stuff it said it was going too.
Also, for those saying "IMVU is a good thing because it will fund FA to make those promised changes! Lets thank them guyz!" Well...Weazyl started off with those FA changes and SoFurry changed a ton over time and neither of them have big adware sponsors like IMVU.
The last part of the TOS These permissions are purely for the limited purposes of allowing us to provide our services in accordance with their functionality (hosting and display), improve them, and develop new services. These permissions do not transfer the rights of your content or allow us to create any deviations of that content outside the aforementioned purposes.
this gives them permission to post your work here on the site, and to resize it to thumbnails. the statement does not give them permission outside of the site at this time. but the TOS is subject to change at any time.
according the the TOS
2.1 - Fur Affinity reserves the right to change these documents at any time, without prior notice, and for any reason. You will be notified of these changes via site announcements which will appear below the Fur Affinity site banner artwork. Continued usage of the site after being notified constitutes acceptance and agreement with any changes. You are responsible for reviewing and becoming familiar with and adhering to any modifications to this agreement.
2.2 - We may ask you to review and explicitly agree to a revised version of these terms. In this case, any modifications will be effective at the time of your agreement. If you do not agree, then you are not permitted to use our services and must discontinue using them immediately. In circumstances where you are not asked to explicitly agree, but are instead notified as stated above via site announcement, then the modifications will become effective fourteen (14) days after being announced.
This Meaning that Since IMVU does in FACT Fully own this site, that they may change the TOS at any time they only have to give advanced warning. SO yes the terms in the TOS allow them to run the site as its intended, But the Change this policy at anytime Also gives IMVU the now owners of FA to change it whenever they wish. they could very easily retype this agreement to say anything they like. The fact that no changes have happened at this time, means absolutely nothing. all it means is that they are in the honeymoon period. In business the honeymoon period after a acquisition is used to calm the business that has been acquired. after they can safely start to make small changes. though I think the first changes may be forced are Strict age verifications.
Age Verification in of itself is not a bad thing, Lets face it I would not want a child on this site. unless they were bound to the G rated content. The very fact that we are concerned is IMVU of adult Verification is is a long drawn out ridiculous process. and what they call Adult content we called mild. For instance according to their own Tier chart, which can be found here: http://www.imvu.com/catalog/web_inf.....content_policy you can clearly see that even aroused genitals is strictly prohibited based on their ratings. IMVU is very very strict about what they consider adult which is the AP section, though This site uses content that far exceeds their UFI section or Unfit For IMVU UFI.
Based on these actual facts I do not recommend you go drastic delete everything and flee that is silly. What you need to do is start preparing for the coming storm. Diversify, Post all your art on multiple sites, starts gaining exposure to the other communities, LET PEOPLE KNOW where you can also be found. Tell them yo8ur account name and what site your art work will also be displayed on. When things start to go wonky you will be able to at that point delete your account here and move on without so much as a loss in productivity. Network out start getting your art to all the sites available to you.
Remember the ancient Proverb Never put all your eggs in one basket. Branch out and prepare yourself for the coming fall if the ship never sinks and it all goes well you will still have a solid foundation that will help you build watchers in all locations. If things go bad which everyone has a terrible feeling is going to happen then you will be able to move on without losing to much productivity. If this ship does sink, and eventually it will no matter what nothing lasts forever, you should always have a back up plan. Yes this is a scary time right now especially to artists that make their living off their art, but if you continue to post to only one site, you're setting yourself up for financial Suicide.
Anyway if you feel its time to pack up and move you can but do not pick one sight find multiple sites and get yourself out there everywhere. We are a community, not a commodity, If a big corporation thinks they can just buy in with no true vestment in our community, then we have to send a strong message that lets other companies that would try to buy in, that this will not work and we as a community will not stand idly by doing nothing, while they threaten our community's home. Yes they own this site but we as a community have other sites and we can move on we can boycott we can raise our voice and we can protest that is all we really can do at this time. They own the ship, Still you have a voice and should ask questions and demand real answers, not RP runarounds. Use your voice and speak out if you have questions do not let half hearted PR answers sway you.
this is a very sticky time and things can change. The precedent for change has already happened, Varsha a Admin there went into a GA General Audience rated area of IMVU and posted a ad to tell everyone about the new site they bought and a link to go check it out. This was a bad idea from the start, because without strict verification, kids can easily lie about their age and its not that hard for them to verify on this site. The adults that visited here were shocked shocked to say the least and yes it took them by surprise. their community is just as shocked by all this as we are everyone. The PR stunt that was done could very well have a serious back lash. IMVU may be forced to step in and start forcing strict policies on FA.
That is not saying that it will come out right away, but It will definitely be a harbinger of change. Anyway that all I am going to say on this is, Diversify and build yourself a foundation. Spread out and share your new locations so people can follow you on multiple sites. No reason to cling to one site only, in fact its really a big mistake because some day this site will crash like any other will as new sites are developed, join them as well. Get involved in getting your name out there.
Good luck to all the furs of FA. If you feel the need to flee that is totally up to you, but at the very least you really should start to diversify spread out and build income from multiple sites. We are a community and we can overcome this if we all stick together.
every drama explosion related to anything, there is always an attempt to calm down.. and in the majority of times.. NOTHING of what was promised...happens.
Kinda entertaining if you ask me.
This.
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/6311970/
and they also made a site here t track it:
http://donations.furaffinity.net/
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/online/imvu.html
Either way I'm pretty sure most already assume that Neer spent all that money we donated to the site on Baddragon dildos. No use denying it. lol XD
sounds fine to me. Besides, if you don't have adblock in 2015 you're a silly goose
But then, Tizzie's a fuckin' bonehead. So, case closed.
kryphosdrgn
nerosilent
ssj3mewtwo (possibly working through an anonymous account)
surgat
xaerun
carmen
foxamoore
And enough of this anonymous staff bullshit. If you want to work on this site so badly, are hired by the digimon puppet/IMVU, and want to fix this whole 'Transparency™' problem that this site is so well known for, you shouldn't get the option of anonymity.
Unless those seeking anonymity are ashamed of even working on this site, which i can completely understand. I wouldn't want to be know for helping liars and sellouts either.
Oh, and one more thing. 3 Months after the deal was finalized, and 10 days after the initial announcement (as of writing this), dragoneer is STILL listed as site owner on the staff page, which we all know is no longer true.
Now, I obviously don't know anything about who's actually in charge of the coding, but I highly doubt that it's Dragoneer himself, so his presence to make those changes seems wholly unnecessary, and only serves to make things slower to change, and I'm Fairly certain changing/removing icons/titles isn't that hard to do and shouldn't have taken over a week (let alone 3 months) to do it.
My money says that the person replying as Fender was Dragoneer himself. So having Fender 'remind' Dragoneer to do it is laughable to me.
People seem to forget that Fender is just a puppet account for the admin to comment anonymously as the site's mascot, nothing more. Fender isn't a real person, he's a figurehead.
My god, hell must have frozen over. My only hope is that a certain admin isn't on that new staff list (I can dream, can't I?)
Honestly, I would like it if IMVU made some changes around here. They can actually run online communities. Changing site policies is ok too, but restricting adult content in a fandom whose art is primary adult is not going to work. Change the staff and the software, not the user content.
http://imgur.com/a/oAtuI
- Imvu is for children. Concerned parents will force the company to censor our porn, that is 70% of the furry artwork. You remove porn from FA and 70% of the comission sales drop immediately.
- Imvu is not going to make any profit at all from mere Ads. In the past, those weren't enough to even keep the site afloat, hence Dragoneer begged for money all the time. Thus, they are going to do things to obtain money. AND whatever they do*, will reduce the purchase power of the people who comissions artists.
- Imvu resells their artwork and can make money off it. While that does not rest any coin from artists, it sure makes them immensely angry.
(* Be it premium accounts, fees per upload... whatever they do, the effect is the same, as it maims the purchase power of the artist's clients)
Most non-furries ending up on the front page of this website, age verified or not, would probably be shocked by what they see, IMVU users and staff included. With that in mind, I believe IMVU will most definitely make considerable adjustments to the ToS if they plan to use this site for anything other than advertising. Heck, if the advertising provider doesn't like the content on this site, it will probably happen regardless.
As for the topic of art theft, users on sites like IMVU and SecondLife have been stealing and re-uploading copyrighted content for years and years to the benefit of the site owners, even if those sites have rules against it and try to enforce them. The buyout isn't suddenly enabling this to happen. However, theoretically IMVU can do whatever they please with the content posted on FA since it becomes their property.
Don't leave FA, just be aware of the situation.
-- By buying FA - a site based around adult themes - you'll be able to better the community for ten year olds? Explain how that would work please, because I am confused. :T
If this is ONLY about saving FA's financial issues and fix this place up a little, why does IMVU have so much control over FurAffinity now?
"IMVU plans on supporting FA changing the site to make improvements, but FA is run independently, so changes will be determined by Dragoneer and team."
-- I surely hope it stays that way, too. :\
____________________________________________________-
About these advertisements. If what I have read in these comments is true, the only question I have is: Why? Why would you take that from artists who spend their money on them to draw in potential customers?
THIS
On a scale of 1-10, 1 being dirt poor, 10 being gold bricks falling out of the sky, what was FA's resource and financial situation like before IMVU, and now that it has IMVU backing it?
I could search up the exact quotes but I'm lazy. brb while I stuff myself with more hotpockets.
A) SJWs get all upset about issues that have nothing to do with them.
IMVU effects us all. It even threatens our livelyhood.
B) SJWs have no rhyme or reason behind getting any and have no coherent statement.
The statements of anger and frustration being presented by people here have a pretty consistent line of throught.
though Magic Rena, please. Like I keep saying don't attack the people on here who disagree with you. It only makes them not want to listen to you. And it makes onlookers easily dismiss what we say. Its kind of self defeating. I'm very proud and glad you are so active on this journal, and I think you are putting forward VERY strong arguments.
But remember WHY we are angry and WHO we are angry against. Don't let anyone distract you from that to get in a petty fight with them. There are more serious problems. If someone doesn't understand just move on. Like I said. Most people are on the fence. Meaning waiting. They will fall to one side or the other depending on what happens in a month or two. Yelling at them isn't going to change that. But presenting them with the evidence is going to make them remember it when changes are instituted.
Oh wait, only conservatives/SJW's are allowed opinions now, how dare someone call this situation drama. What joke's of furries you are now
On a second note; why is everyone so quick to baw and whine about people 'harassing' them on this site when they clearly don't understand what harassment really is? If you're going to start shit in a journal like this and reply to people while acting like a brat with the typing skills of a six-year-old with tourette's syndrome, it's pretty safe to guess that others are going to reply back. If you feel that it's nothing more than drama then grow up, say so and leave. Stop fishing for attention and acting like a victim, then maybe you can get on with your life.
And for fuck's sake, does nobody know how to spell 'equals' around here?!
Oh no, everyone look out, the feminists are here to destroy and oppress us all because everyone knows they're evil and go running around with swastika flags rammed up their butts looking to castrate every male in sight and corrupt or good women! Lets blame them for all of our intellectual shortcomings! Are you really that threatened, or are you looking for an excuse to accuse everyone of being a radfem while assuming you know what lies between people's legs?
Look at your own hypocrisy before you go bawling about it to others.
Hah! I hate when you realize you've made a silly little typo, but only after you've posted and ran out of time to fix it. So aggravating. ROTFLMAO.
Oh I know. It's so irritating and I feel like rage flipping my desk every time it happens.
Oooo he blocked me too. Woah now, we've got a bad-ass up in here who can't take being called out. Damn, his block list has to be longer than a Proust novel.
You'll probably come back looking for attention again, because you're clearly one of those people, so I'll just leave my reply here: Yeah, uh-huh... I'll be sure to hide my dick. *snickers* I wasn't aware that femnazis made a new radical level for their elite.
You have a couple of really heavy reasons to not be taken seriously at all.
"Yes, I have a question for Brett.
How do they explain nearly 300 allegations against IMVU filed with the Better Business Bureau in the past three years, stemming from issues such as irresponsible, bullying staff, unfair account deletions/suspensions, and numerous documents accusing IMVU of siphoning monies from users, then systematically closing the accounts after the fact and keeping the money?
Is this why revenues have dropped from a high of $40 million in 2010, to $2.9 million in revenues as of the last fiscal quarter?
Thank you. "
That is the voice of the people, people who are not content with this betrayal!
Putting this here again for good measure. Scrolling scrolling scrolling..."Three days after the announcement that Fur Affinity, the largest and most important center of commerce and community for the Furry Fandom, was sold to a non Furry company without our consent or consult, I am very proud to see outrage and recognition of betrayal. To have undermined the artists and creators of the Furry Fandom without a mere mention before the sale, and to have doddled around without telling anyone until two months after, is such an egregious and downright vile offense to our respect, intelligence, and especially our livelihood that as each day goes by instead of this decision getting clearer and clearer it gets more and more baffling the more we attempt to comprehend it.
The Furries of the Furry Fandom are right in their rage, their anger, their feelings of being trampled. We see through the smiling platitudes being fed to us by who knows anymore really. The expectation that we take these reassurances on pure faith leaves us more distrustful given the history of our faith in the announcements of this site, and these reassurances fall in direct conflict with the past actions of the company that now claims to own the medium of our livelihood; the gathering of our most independent Fandom. And though I am proud, very proud, to see just how easily we are seeing and even piercing these flat assurances that nothing will happen, everything is normal, it doesn't affect you, don't look at the pink elephant in the corner... It seems to go amiss as to whats really at stake here; as to what larger "big picture" impact this sell-out has introduced to the Furry narrative. This Fandom has been asked a question. This is a question we would inevitably be asked, and a question which will ripple through all corners of the Furry world across SoFurry, Weazyl, Anthrocon, Further Confusion, your local furmeet, and right down to you, your future, and your conscious.
The sale of Fur Affinity to a non-Furry company had prompted the whole of the Fandom to answer this: "Will this Fandom, the one truly independent and free flowing Fandom, declare and at all costs maintain 100% control over its soveirenty and keep this Fandom of Furries by Furries for Furries one in which every Furry has the opportunity to be a meaningful actor within their Fandom. Will we commit to keeping the gap between producer and fan non-existent and maintain a Fandom which includes difference, normalizes the fringe, and embraces the outrageous. Will we keep a Fandom which harbors the downtrodden outcast of the satus quo? Will we assert that we as a Fandom are the only ones who have the right to set the course of our Fandom and determine the culture of our people? Or will we trade that in; accept the meddling of outside companies who want to capitalize on our accomplishments and in the process destroy our independence, govern our Fandom for us, and create an impossible gap between the fans and our 'parent companies'. Would we do this in exchange for glitzier web sites, cheap mass produced standardized apparel and even suits, and an Anthrocon three times the size, but brought to you by _______ who will take the income from admission and there will be no charity. At least, that is, for the short time they can engineer a fad till it crumbles and we become an unprofitable inconvenience and we are trashed and left to pick up the shambles and start from square 1.
We as a Fandom must have an answer to this question, because what happens here on FA in the coming months sets a precedent for the next decade of the Furry Fandom. IMVU being a small company, if we let them succeed in their goal of turning the Furry Fandom into a money making machine for them then there will be bigger, stronger, more formidable companies that come knocking, and for them we must have an answer too. This is the next phase of the Furry Fandom in which we must defend what we have built, and further build an infrastructure, an organization that will effectively let us as a Fandom deliver our answer in the loudest was possible.
We have built a powerhouse of an economy solely on art. We normalized homosexuality 30 years before its time. We created a Fandom where anyone can contribute and theirstatus in the community is based on the merit of their contribution. We are not beholden to a parent company executive behind a desk deciding what gets shipped, made, and who sees it. We do not rely on the creation of a team of people or one man to exist, and once it stops being produced, we disappear. We are a fandom of a IDEA, and idea of acceptance, equality, and self discovery held within the representation of ourselves in an anthropomorphic world. Whats at stake...is the loss of all that, of our identity, and the Fandom as WE have built it."
The SubmissionAnd marvel is a massive cash cow.
I'm just not seeing how we benefit IMVU similarly. (My questions right below yours)
I mean, heck, it probably WONT change much...but i love the new note setup :D
Luckily, disney saw fit to let them keep doing what they do best.. with a bigger budget. and i think it's paid off for everyone, including the fans :)
This.
I feel like "What does IMVU get out of this" wasn't really answered fully.
I would like someone to clarify (without bias or anger please) What precisely they are gaining by shoving money into a community that has little to do with them other than being one of their demographics?
If neer fender or Brett could Answer this it would be lovely thanks.
But I'd like it without the press release padding. No offense it's great for keeping things formal.
But straight to the point, Why does IMVU want to help us?
Is it because they expect us to visit their ads more?
Do they plan on releasing imvu designer contests that will help them sell the winners product (Which isn't bad if they compensate the winner)
Do they want to see the best talent we have here so they can attempt to reach out and recruit some of it for themselves (like through contests and job offers)
Is the CEO secretly a furry who was as tired of waiting for updates as the rest of us?
I'm not being skeptical here, i'm honestly curious. And i don't think there's some nefarious plot going on or that the above choices are evil.
But there's no such thing as a free lunch and I respect that IMVU must get something out of the deal. And i'm not satisfied with the answer as it is too vague.
I would greatly appreciate fully understanding what it is they want to achieve.
I'm not prepared to hate the real answer, i would just like to know so that i am properly informed.
Thank you :)
But I'm just not ready to ring the doom bell just yet, and i would like to give them the opportunity to answer if they at least want to.
But meh, whatever will be will be :3
I should never use the word never in these cases because there is always the possibility though it would be rather slim. who knows they might surprise us, but unlikely.
they help FA. How exactly does this work? I heard that lots of artists are leaving FA because
of this rumour, because their artwork wouldn't be safe anymore. I want to stay here on FA,
because I like the website, but with these rumours going around I'm starting to get a bit nervous.
http://imgur.com/a/oAtuI
IMVU is literally doing the minimum they have to legally. which is annoying and such.
Those existed long before IMVU bought fur affinity. the buyout just brought it to light.
Instead they banned the user selling the item, but the item is still for sale.
See this comment: http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/.....4#cid:45018031
I do hope I am making some sense. Legalese is a pain in the ass to explain in plain terms and not sound like one is running in circles.
However I found the part near the end fascinating, they have a segment in their TOS that suggests they may put in features users will have to pay for.
Well you might want to call them idiots for not having so, but Such is the price of being human beings and not power hungry monsters.
you really like to assume things don't you?
I wonder if you know how copyright actually even works with this statement. as i do see so many misinformed folk on the internet on how it works.
Can not say this of all companies because some do in fact use it to abuse it. in most cases it is even latter down the road that someone abuses blanket statements and they tend to be money grabbing sites.
You know why we can have GOOD furry porn nowadays? Back in 2010 and before, most art was rather primitive compared to what we see today. Artists have improved a lot, many of them even going academic and professional about it, ALL BECAUSE they had comissions as incentive. If Imvu starts to maim the acquisitive power of the people who buy comissions, the incentive will be smaller, and many artistis will be forced to stop producing art. It will be a regression, all because of Dragoneer and Imvu.
Your entire post seems to be an attempt to influence people by making them fearful with no evidence to back anything up.
The only thing I can see right now based off of current and past evidence is possibly the closure of FA if it becomes just a money sink.
If they add pay walls to things people will leave, the site will crumble, because there are free alternatives.
Now as for advertisements, it is easy enough to block those, mind you this will of course reduces their profits from ads. Now to bring up something they mention directly, the Google adds. If I do remember correctly it had previously been tried, however, it failed because the content of the website does not conform to the standers Google wants. This leads to the possibility that they will try and apply rules to make the website conform to Google's standards. the past shows us that when DA started making more and more censorship rules DA abandoned by many and FA was created. So one can assume same thing will likely happen as it has been shown to have happened. If FA starts implementing rules to make things conform to Google people will leave to another site.
Overall it seems more like a publicity stunt than anything hoping to attract Furies to their site because they want to get into the nick market of selling things to furies. Hell they are even buying table space at the big conventions lately. They want into this market because it has been shown some furries are willing to spend a lot of money online on art and other things related to it. this seems partially proven by their rhetoric calling their content makers (the players that make avatars and other things that people buy) artists and such.
As a note, see how I am using past events to back up possibilities, rather than ya know pulling them from thin air, can you do that? it may make your arguments sound less like you are trying to create fear and unease. I believe your main arguments are a fallacy of appealing to emotion. so far all your posts are trying to appeal to someones worry or fear, repeating the same things over and over. rather than using any kind of evidence that what you claim is going to happen will happen.
2) I assume that Imvu's objective is the objective of any bussiness. They bought the site to make money, not to burn int just for fun. Their official statements are lies that make it look like they are just here for charity, but basic financial notions prove otherwise.
3) Hence their point is to make money one way or other from this place, and any cent thwtgoes to their pockets is a cent that will not go to the artist's pockets. Their presence here only makes the artist's struggle for money even harder.
from now on I think I shall just reply with the fallacy you are arguing from.
False equivalence
Wow.
However, that's neither here nor there, I'm just addressing your point. My point is that you clearly made an ad hominem, only to later refute it. You call him out on his grammar, which isn't something you should call him out on given your own errors. Your response little more than, "You're stupid and thus what you're saying is invalid." Not a critique of his logic, or his claims, just attacking him as an individual in order to discredit what he's saying. That is an ad hominem, and you're resorting to rhetoric instead of fact. It is in your opinion that he is ignorant and lacks education, your logic in part that he doesn't understand what he's claiming. However, given that you refuted making an ad hominem (and, as it appears, are continuing to do so), it seems that you are incapable of spotting one that you, yourself, made, or perhaps simply biased and on the defensive, and thus less likely or otherwise unwilling to cede on the point.
The TL;DR, of course, is as follows: you made an ad hominem, and I offer my link of your comment as evidence.
To address your comment, the difference between what I see as your ad hominem (proof above) and what you see as my ad hominem is as follows: for mine, I critiqued your argument, not you. Saying you're making an ad hominem isn't necessarily making one, unless I turn it into a personal attack as opposed to one against your reasoning. (An ad hominem is "appealing to one's prejudices, emotions, or special interests rather than to one's intellect or reason, OR attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument," of which I'm following the second definition.)
You made unwarranted claims and insults, and are continuing to present them as fact. You attacked the character of an individual, and not the argument itself, the very definition of an ad hominem. Despite your repeated refuting of such, it doesn't make it false, nor does your claim that I'm making an ad hominem make you true.
If facts are prejudices, then gravity and electromagnetism are prejudices too :3
Please, examine your own position and arguments before you go off and bother other people.
I have NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER if Furry sites add pay features, because then they can FUND THEMSELVES. Then there is NO REASON to sell out to IMVU.
Though we all know this isn't Dragoneer not wanting to be able to better run the site. This is about him wanting to buy a new house and realizing he can get us and IMVU to foot the bill at the same time.
I think the only way that this Fandom can truly stay independent in the future is either to be overtly perverted volatile maniacs that no large company would touch with a 10 foot Bad Dragon, or to become self-sustaining in our own right. But us ALL to have an equal chance at that prosperity. For ALL Furries to be able to make their home in this culture. But then we have to prevent an oligarchy of Dragoneers from controlling the Fandom.
I've always thought that if Furry Conventions didn't give to charity, and instead all contributed their earnings to a big pot from which all member conventions could take to fund attender-approved projects, that that would go a long way to fixing the broken economic model that this Fandom has, which gave IMVU the opportunity in the first place.
But then you would need someone overseeing how that pot is used, with written rules as to what can't be done with it.
And what is an organized body of oversight deciding where money is allocated?
Well you get a big inflamitory word that starts with a really really big G
But honestly, that is the Fandom in which I want to live. Not whatever Fandom IMVU and the other companies watching this want for us.
Even if we end up with a bunch of crooks, I'd much rather have OUR crooks than THEIR crooks any day.
Let's say an nsfw artwork got taken from one of my galleries and uploaded on IMVU behind their AP paywall.
And then someone tells me this, or heck - let's even say I have a paid AP profile on IMVU and can actually see the image myself and get the proper link myself, my big question is; If I send a DMCA with all the correct text and links - can the DMCA agent even see the content behind the paywall? I highly doubt the just randomly trusts a stranger that says whatever that links leads to is theirs. I mean they have to also follow rules so they can't exactly hack/see everything on the internet just because of their title/job. So will the DMCA even be remotely successfull if this is the case?
this has a flowchart of how a lot of people deal with DMCA notices
http://readwrite.com/2012/02/23/how.....rk_infographic
I knew there had to be something buit wasn't sure what ^^
to make sure this is not some sort of incredibly overdone, elaborate April Fool's Joke,
At this point it doesn't really matter that much if its a April fools joke or not. The damage has already been done. A lot of users are still huffing about the IMVU ownership, and several artists I know of have wiped their galleys clean, either out of fear that their works of art will be targeted next for art thieves, or because they can no longer stand Dragoneers questionable decisions. You cant put the toothpaste back in the bottle. I really doubt that announcing it as a Aprils fools joke would restore a lot of users confidence in FA. It would be seen by many as a joke in bad taste, or a hasty coverup as a poor business decision that's costing FAs life dearly.
Thats why I dont post much that has a significant meaning to me, anymore.
If one multiple people reply to a single comment but the one that replies first has a ton of replies it looks really odd.
Whats worse is if there is no REAL repercussion for Dragoneer that other Furries running other Furry sites and cons will sell out too, and not be smart enough that it only hurts them in the long run. This is about setting a precedent.
We have to decide if we are going to be a corporate product or a cultural entity. There is much much more future in the latter. If we choose to be a corporate product we will last only as long as the fad. Then we will be trashed.
As it stands the fandom will continue to take hits from people whom are to arrogant to see the truth of what this fandom is about, have fun and creativity and the freedom of imagination. that is what this fandom is about, for those that failed to understand backing behind it.
#FURRIFFIC!
It won't. And even so - do you want another ten years of stagnation?
Shit is not going to get better. New management, same shitty turds they've been squeezing out for the better part of a decade. Haven't you read up on your history?
http://www.furaffinity.net/staff/
"Please wait while we desperately try to salvage this screw-up!"
Now THAT'LL be a hilarious sight to see.
Especially since this site is all NSFW.
The ARTISTS are moving. That has really never happened before. In all the past FA Dramas (Should be a series on Telemundo) its been angry people moving and coming back a week later. Not the ARTISTS themselves are moving. When that happens its game over.
With how this has been going they are getting a ton of publicity, and when marketing is concerned all publicity is good. I am wondering if this is part of their goal.
Just out of curiosity, where did you get that figure?
...and is going to deal month to month with maintenance costs ... and "server upgrades". And they are not going to make that by simply ad revenue like they claim in their official journals.
What exactly are you estimating these "maintenance costs" and "ad revenue" to be? Can you cite an official source? (Such as, for example, this?)
-What changes is IMVU going to make to FA, regarding user interface?
-How does FA tie into IMVU's virtual world social networking?
-Will IMVU set up the ability for FA artists to make prints, posters, and mugs to sell within FA? And if so, could IMVU credits become interchangeable in purchases on FA?
-Will FA accounts be considered IMVU accounts and so on?
-What made IMVU decide to buy FA?
-furfags invading IMVU
-yes because ^
-same^
-shrooms and amphetamines
This.
-How does FA tie into IMVU's virtual world social networking?
-Will IMVU set up the ability for FA artists to make prints, posters, and mugs to sell within FA? And if so, could IMVU credits become interchangeable in purchases on FA?
-Will FA accounts be considered IMVU accounts and so on?
Well, based on what I've read so far, my understanding (which, I'll admit, might not be 100% perfect) is that IMVU won't have any real influence on how Neer runs FA. They're simply taking over all the financial aspects, so that Neer will be able to spend less time worrying about money (and a day job) and more time worrying about fixing FA (and making it profitable for his new investors).
So, here's what that means in regards to your specific points:
- IMVU isn't in charge of FA's user interface; Neer is. If the UI is going to improve at all, Neer (along with whoever he chooses to hire/appoint) is the one to do it.
- Aside from the fact that IMVU seems to be advertising rather aggressively on FA, trying to gain new users from the FA userbase... there isn't really any kind of "tie-in". (Aside from what the users themselves create, perhaps.)
- FA will probably never have a "prints" system, unless Neer decides to implement one in the distant future. (Even then, I'm sure it'll never be able to compete with DeviantArt's system, or the dozens of dedicated printing services out there.)
- As for FA accounts and IMVU accounts combining... oh gaaaaawd, I hope not! Seriously though, that's not likely at all.
-What made IMVU decide to buy FA?
I'm not even sure "buy" is the right word here. I think it sounds more like an "investment" situation, similar to some of the deals made on the "Shark Tank" (or "Dragons' Den", depending on your country) TV show.
I'm assuming they think they can make FA profitable... And who knows, if they can get Neer (and his band of misfits) to put enough work into it, they just might manage it! ...Maybe!
But now, that is about to dissappear, because the MAIN incentive of this art revolution was comissions. The instant in which imvu starts stealing money from people by installing Premium accounts, the evolution will die. Artists like Naira will have to find better ways to obtain an income, and the quality and number of art production will fall down at the levels of 2005. That is the way imvu will destroy furry art.
With the community getting bigger and bigger, there are going to be new quality artists out there.
Although, with so many new faces, there's a lot of random "meh" quality works being posted more than ever.
Now for your second statement, I don't really care if those quality artists post elsewhere, especially if they just want to make a quick buck. I have no interest in purchasing art from said quality artists and I certainly don't enjoy seeing people post advertisements constantly. Why must something that is generally a hobby for most have to be bombarded with $$$.
You act like money is the only thing driving this good artwork you speak of and it's not.
Alright, well, I’m done playing this. Well, that’s the end of this video, remember to rate the video, comment the video, and subscribe if you want to see videos similar to this one. See ya.
How does it feel to sell out and betray the fandom at large, and to be despised and ridiculed by thousands of furries everywhere for your ineptitude, continuously failed attempts to upgrade and improve this site for TEN YEARS, your absolutely disgusting business sense, and your complete lack of any kind of good judgement when it comes to hiring people.
Seriously, I, and I'm sure many others, would just Love to know.
About the only good thing I can see coming from this IMVU fiasco, is you getting canned simply due to unpopularity among the users of this sinking ship, and the site eventually collapsing under itself and fading away into nothingness.
Maybe then you'll do us all a favor and crawl under a rock to be forgotten.
I happen to recall a lot of people saying they'd give credit where it was due if you just stepped down and sold the site, but none of us thought you'd stoop so low as to make a deal with a floundering, thief infested, SecondLife wannabe. Let alone shoehorning yourself into a retained (forced) position of power over a site/fandom who pretty much shows nothing but contempt for you now.
Even if things change on this site, and improvements are made, the damage has already been done, and WILL result in a death spiral. You can count on that.
And a question for Brett.
How does it feel to be the other half of the cause of so many furries fleeing this site. Your lack of insight and actual knowledge of the community and how it would react is your own undoing, I hope you're proud of yourself for hammering Yet Another wedge between the members of this fandom, of which all of us call 'home'.
Let's also not forget to mention, your own shitty business model and attempts to sweep the theft (and subsequent profit) taking place on your site under the pay wall. Luckily, there are ways around paying for your scummy AP in the form of helpful users from both sites who are willing to help others bypass it (which in turn results in you losing money. Something I'm sure you'll be painfully aware of soon enough)
It also can't have surprised you too badly, to find out that hardly anyone even knew of your SecondLife clone before any of this bullshit started. And now, because of this deal, all the negative press is resulting in outright boycotts of your SecondLife wannabe and this site in many cases. (Bad press is still bad press my friend... And furries tend to stick together when people fuck with us as badly as Dragoneer has.)
You should have done a bit more research into the history of this site, and of who you were buying from before signing that dotted line.
Put simply, you've both dug your own graves.
This.
I, for one, completely agree with you. It sickens me how the man's venerated by the masses simply because he's at the top of the food chain, rather than looking objectively at his 'accomplishments' and realising what an absolute waste of fucking skin the man is.
Funny thing is, I'd love to meet the guy at a con, shake his hand, then ask him how in the fuck he's managed to make this con last ten fucking years. Also douse my hand in sanitiser.
I posted the questions simply because (as far as i've seen) they haven't been asked before, and for others who see them to ask the same.
The ass kissing needs to stop, and people need to educate themselves on the history and track record of this site and it's administration, not to mention the new owner of the site's own history and business record.
And I'm pretty sure the answer to your question would be 'See all these people lining up to the slaugh- i mean registration desk?? That's how.'
People are stupid, and they like/prefer to be around other people who share common interests. The con was initially intended as a way to help support the community and the website, but seeing as it's gone on for 7 years now since 2007 (there wasn't one in 2009)... I'm really not seeing any improvements or much support, are you?
Though who knows how long FA will even be associated with the con now that Ferrox Art LLC has been liquidated. The wikifur page on the con hasn't even been updated to reflect FA's new ownership.
In recent years the convention has shifted from being operated by FA United LLC (A limited liability company in the state of New Jersey (filing no. 0600336301)) to being operated by Ferrox Art LLC, who owns and hosts Fur Affinity. This change has been reflected on the convention's website[6] and legal forms[7]. <- source http://en.wikifur.com/wiki/FA:_United#Organization
Edit: And before anyone gets butthurt over my use of the word 'people'. Get over yourselves. I'm a people too, and so are you.
Very good words, though, kudos to you.
Also, does he or does he not smoke fat fucking blunts all day?
Saying "Nothing bad hasn't happened yet" Is like saying. "I just lit the TNT guys...but it hasn't blown up yet so its safe!"
Nothing would happen a week after the announcement and nothing would have happened until the announcement was made.
Except, you know, they fact that Dragoneer raised 20,000$ in "donations" then bought a new house, then sold FA to IMVU for an amount of money they refuse to disclose.
Wow, ad hominem, you've completely hurt my feelings.
> Vaporwave is not a meme
So I used Google and this is what it gave me for the definition of 'Vaporwave':
http://imgur.com/h5lyq8D
Google disagrees with you.
I then used Google to understand 'meme' and was able to apply your definition to it:
http://imgur.com/JqSBdT1
I disagree with you, if it sounds like a meme, walks like a meme, then it's surely a meme.
Also, you don't know how an ad hominem works.
Inb4: "durr hurr teling me that I don't know how ad hominem works is an ad hominem too".
You surely make a lot of assumptions; it is no surprise to me that your arguments aren't well founded now that I have come to this assessment.
> Also, you don't know how an ad hominem works.
You called me 'lazy', distracting from discussing the point. Of course, I pointed out that Google said different and that Google said different about memes too. The only thing you could do is say "that is not a meme" without pointing to Google's definition.
> Inb4
You can't even be bothered to type whole words or sentences properly and yet I get the impression you felt witty about typing this.
I am genuinely curious, do you really think being spiteful and making what appears to be snap assumptions, makes your case?
Now, there is a magic world full of people like you who will appreciate more your "special" and "edgy" comments. It's called 4chan. Go back in there and don't return.
Honestly, I just invite others to read what you wrote, it's very clear your intent is to spread FUD and over dramatics.
> Now, there is a magic world full of people like you who will appreciate more your "special" and "edgy" comments. It's called 4chan. Go back in there and don't return.
I would advise you to take your own advice. If you hate the actions on FA so much, just leave. There are plenty of people here who would not care in the slightest that you stopped existing here and others that would probably be happier that our community has less people like you.
Actually, I'm just using BBS and Usenet (still waiting for eternal September to end) schemes.
I'm sure you feel special referencing I'm from your 'edgy' website, but that is not the case here.
greentexting is wonderful
how is 4chan my website i dont recall owning it ayyy you silly
Also funny how many Brainless Furs are digging there nose into your back, dont have they any Pride or even an back bone ?
Aslong FA dosnt Change i wont post here again and thats an Promise..
Yeah i know you will not read it, you like it more when People beg for your Attention or when People tell you how great you are ^^
Bye Folks and Neer
FURRIES IN A NUTSHELL:
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/16148720/
May contain 95% diapers
and who might this user be?
everything she had was deleted, no ryme reason or warning or telling her why it happened, they just did it
If all furries go to hell you still have Equestria Daily and your series. But if those furries go to hell, those are my brothers and sisters, an indirect family to me.
So when you say that nobody cares, speak for yourself.
I had no idea there were laws against being in other fandoms!
Please forgive me! [/sarc]
There's no such thing as a 'True Furry' and anyone claiming that there is, is lying to themselves. We all belong to more than one fandom, and it doesn't matter what. The commonality among us is that we ARE FURRIES. Regardless of what else we enjoy.
We're not some aryan race for fuck sake, so stop acting like it.
And to snlckers
if you've taken the time, and looked through the comments of every journal since the original announcement detailing the sale, you'll see that there Are people who care. Quite a few of them in fact.
So I'll agree with Magic-rena on that, at least. Saying there aren't people who care is simply not true.
Mmmmm, I HEAR THE TRAINS ALREADY
>lefunnymaymaysarcasm
Sure, I'm not the RIAA after all.
Yes, this profile states it's a watcher.
> Even if all artists go to hell you remain untouched
Wrong.
> please stop mocking those who are in the opposite situation.
My response was regarding being 'a true furry'. I don't see how what I wrote regarding the concept of a 'true furry' has anything to do with 'finances in danger'.
You are not in 4chan kid. Now, are you gonna keep shitposting?
I'm not from 4chan, but justify it to yourself however you like.
See: https://www.furaffinity.net/journal...../#cid:45165512
Magic Rena I like how you insulted a brony for saying no one cared about the situation despite the fact EVERYONE is in uproar over it. Stupid cloppers m8
Inb4: more copypastes from demoneyys the retard.
For someone that's so concerned about keeping the community together, you're rather biased and eager to oust a fellow furry. Really, the door's right there. You're only stirring up trouble. No one's making you stay. If things are really, really that bad, or if you actually disagree with this as much as you say you do, if you literally do not agree with the TOS (as you've stated), then you should leave the site.
also do not think just because someone disagrees with your view it means they side with the other.
Why is it so often now if someone disagrees with another they are accused of either being a troll or a white knight, both of which have negative connotations? it is possible people do not want to ague or debate in some way that somewhat civil any longer?
Congrats.
You're welcome, world.
its snowing in mexico and you're one of the special snowflakes.
I already had considered using a third party website to put my fursona stuff there...but this is just complicated x3 adding folders would solve the problem for fursona, collectibles, scraps, commissions, adoptables, ych's, etc!!!!!
I just feel frustrated, feeling subjectivelly forced to stay here because of high traffic
FA, plz gib Folders...if you do, ill stay here on FA like as loyal i had been
If the artists and commissioners finally decided to up and leave this cesspool of a website for once and STAY AWAY, traffic elsewhere would naturally improve.
I know, I know, it's an insanely complex concept for some to grasp, but there ya go. =\
And weasyl is filled to the brim with SjW's and feminists, so if that is "green pastures" to you, then I do not want my art associated with those people honestly.
just an fyi. Feminism isn't a bad thing. Any woman who desires equal rights/treatment is a feminist, whether they admit it or not. Try doing a little homework before berating things you don't understand :P
How about you trying to do a little homework before you lecture me on things you are quick to defend?
Having a basic ideology or something in common with a sociopolitical movement doesn't MEAN you are part of it. Many people just don't see feminism for their own reasons as it achieving equality and they are fine by not wanting to associate with it. I don't agree with what RacthetMechanic said about weasyl being filled with SJW and feminist (and implying feminist it's inherently a bad thing), and heck I have a preference for weasyl and want to see it thrive, but please don't act all so mighty and as if you have the "touch" to tell people they are feminist even when they don't want anything to do with it :T
Would there be a way to establish a sort of central clearinghouse, perhaps a heavily moderated thread on the FA Forums, where existing IMVU members can make a report of stolen artwork that they happen to find?
That way, those who don't want to, or cannot afford to purchase an adult account, can still have a means of producing a DCMA request?
edit: inb4 banned for above comment
Does you love IMVU take FA?
Yet somehow, despite the fact that this states basically exactly what Dragoneers journals did from the beginning of this ordeal, there are thousands of comments hosting at least a dozen arguments.
It's really simple: Dragoneer made a deal with IMVU. If that scares you, leave. If it doesn't, stay. If you decide to stay and stuff gets bad, then leave.
Honestly, with as much routine harassment Dragoneer suffers for literally everything the poor guy does, I'm surprised he didn't turn his back on the community a long time ago. I would have. That being said, sure FA has had some issues along the way, but that didn't stop it from becoming a huge contributor to the functions of the furry community. Everything from conventions to local meets can be organized here, and you can even meet your next best friend here. Overall, I'd say FA has been a good thing for many furs, myself included.
I just don't see value in choosing to portray yourself and your community negatively by acting like discontent children when there are very effective options available to you that would both save time and stress. It's not like there aren't a multitude of other places you can find porn you like.
here a slice of perspective
why i agree with some of what you say but your doing it wrong
They dont respond to comments or reviews alot of the time. They change a little but never on something like this.
They only change MAJORLY when money is involved. So unless you can hit them where it counts, there wallet. They are not going to listen or really do anything of what you (or anyone) has to say.
and neer never listens....why would he or anyone of his staff, listen now?
this is not new or news
Basically, get people to move to Weasyl so not only they can be safe, but also to get a vengeance against the ones who pretended to empty our pockets.
the people who want or wanted to leave would have left by now. Most people dont announce there exit.....
And no one emptied your pockets. People who donated or paid for adds, they are the ones who have a right to be mad.
vengeance isnt necessary. Its destructive and makes one look childish.
hmm *ponders a way to go about this*
Think FA is Mcdonalds for the sake of argument
Everyone knows that food is bad just like everyone hates the IMVU thing and knows its bad.
Tho...people are still eating it, people are still here. (be it laziness or just wanting to see what will happen)
Your the guy reminding everyone and trying your hardest to stop them from eating that IMVU food. Regardless if they wanted your opinion or not. You think your saving these poor souls from dieing of heart failure/ art thief or other things
But the sad truth is
Everyone knows its bad by now from just reading the posts.
Your not telling them anything new and really the decision is theres, regardless how much you yell and tell them its nasty. All you can do is lay actual facts down not your opinions, that there alternative to this Mcdonalds abomination is to eat over at weasyl's.
Thats all you can do. But to harass people and "basically. get people to move to Weasyl" is wrong and makes me personally not want to go to weasyl
Makes me think that if i throw and idea out for anyone to read and some one doesnt like. Some one like you will come screaming down on me telling me what they think till there blow in the face an i had enough and agreed with to get you to go away....you wont change minds you will close them this way.
im not saying what your doing is bad tho, i admire your tenacity.
But your going about it in the most destructive way....a really facebook way of getting people to do what you want them to do because you dont like something. Except you can thumb things down or twitter about it as easy
Some times...people like eating Mcdonalds garbage....(aka staying on the FA website and supporting it)
Just let the ones who want to eat, eat it and get fat
while the ones you want to relate with flourish in your own little way
do you really want a whole bunch of people who dont agree with you, on your side of the internet anyway? You will be dragging FA's trash to your side if you think about it that way. kinda like shoving a getto some where nice and then it becomes another getto....think bout it x3
sorry to rant/ post too long of stuff but i feel your trying to convert people to weasyl like a Christian trying to convert a SINNER
Difference between McDonalds and this, and sorry for not responding in a big text and instead being concise, is that none of the clients took an active part in the creation of Mcdonalds: Fur Affinity is famous (one of the top 1000 sites in USA) thanks to the work of artists who upload professional artwork here.... and not thanks to the work of Traitor Dragoneer.
In Mcdonalds you buy food that was cooked by employees. Here in FA, you just log to see what independent people has done. If this site is famous is because of the people, not because of Traitor Dragoneer's pathetic ass.
Oh so picking apart grammar are we?
Thats a nice way to demoralize some one you want to convince your point with. Not only that its a really good way to skip a point and also puts you back on top of the argument/discussion.
wow you are so cool i wish i could be just like you!
so smart with your words, I R No how to usez rite. When english is the most complicated language (dont you dare talk about latin, when english and latin are mixed together) in the world with a good chunk of it being slang. I can imagine be super well literate like you must be a pain!
LOL~! being in the top 100 websites doent make it famous bahaha
when the top 10 searches are mostly what a majority of the human population looks at. Its really easy to get into the bottom 11 on down. Where is FA placed?
Unless you are facebook or twitter of some sorts anything underneath, its just random websites with really small numbers. like its almost a sharp decrease in comparison
No average person goes...huh i think i will go on FA today. No its mostly youtube or meme websites
FA is not famous. Bring me some numbers that prove to me that i can ask 10k people and even 1 person taht's not a furry knows it and i will start to believe that.
your putting this poor pig that you hate, on a pedestal and i dont know why...
Hmm i see your dodging my McD's example by using literal meanings =/ if thats the case then you dont want to even bother hearing anything but your own voice
why dont you just recorded it and play it back so you dont be loanley and hearing something that agrees with you should calm your nerves
seriously, posting here wont change much, do some real change and go behind the scenes
make some noise were neer will actually here it
this is my point
again, admire your tenacity, but your doing it wrong if you really want to make a change....
Second, the essence of the McDonald's example is that you, as customer, did not put your effort in the development of the product, you just buy it finished. In FA, every single user took place into creating the final product, and Traitor Dragoneer did nothing but to sit down and let the site run under his "management".
Because merica~! perden mah lak-erf nolage
if you dont like the new management then move....
if people dont care or want the new management, stay
you cant really change that
i guess my point is earlier you made it sound like your trying to shove people else ware because you personally dont like something
regardless if its bad or good.
your making it feel like your being overly aggressive to anyone who doesnt see it your way, to the point you demoralized yourself by mocking people on tiny things and avoiding points
your making things sound its its all a personal opinion and a personal issue.
You could be doing things that look alot less bad on you like. Hey look at this odd thing on FA/neer i found, what do you think? Like putting information on table to anyone to read and making them have the choice.
Rather than, HERE READ THIS, dont like it WELL MEEEEHHHH~~~~~
not sure if thats true on your end but on my end thats how your coming off.
Im sure im not coming off as a nice person myself but meh *shrugs* internet does that that weird way of taking away verbal and physical cues that tells alot more than words.
Think of me as Noah, and of Weasyl as the promised land. :p
i just dont like it noah maybe you should gather two of every furry that wants to go willingly and just do it that way
maybe i should fallow mosses instead for 40 years to his promise land
at lease i dont have to worry about the sea of stuff in my way. He can kinda sift that out of the way...
Sure you can say that since things are calmed, but it is 99% sure that in few time Imvu will start to strike, and then the real exodus will happen.
dont you think?
maybe more people will know it *shrugs*
or just trolling
OH BY THE GODS SHALL THIS DESPICABLE WEBSITE BURN IN IMVU HELL AND SHALL THOSE WHO SEE THE LIGHT BOW BEFORE THE MIGHTY MAGIC TOOL, NEER BLESS US ALL!I know not that good at making stuff up, but in all seriousness stop being god damn tool for Dragoneer Magic-rena, your doing your cause a major disservice and at this point id think your just a multi of dragoneer here to in the public eye discredit those that dont wanna depend on FA.
PS: For everyone else, no answers are going come ever here, this page was just set up as a sinkhole like the journal on the forum to keep you all distracted from spreading your opinions to your following and so stifling any kind of organized revolt or boycott
*bada bum psss*
*canned laughs*
That's the big problem kid. You see, Imvu claims that they will stay hands off and will only take money from ad revenue and some kind of magic increase of the 3d chat users. Back into reality, this site never generated enough add revenue to even stay afloat, so, that amount of money will never be enough to handle the site and it's new costs (Dragoneer's wage as new employee, the new coders, etc) AND obviously won't generate any profit.
So, unless Imvu's plans are to starve and willingly enter into Bankrupcy, it is natural to expect them to put fees that might range from premium accounts to fees per uploading. Now, if you consider that an artist's clients only has a limited amount of available money to buy art, if Imvu starts taking a part of that money, the the artist's final sales will be affected, as in, less money for art and less money for artists.
It's really not hard to understand.
I don't like this acquisition either, for numerous reasons. But in IMVUs defense - they're not stupid.
Say the site now generates 100$/mo from ad revenue. (If it does or not doesn't matter, just take it as an example)
Now, imagine they made a 1$ fee per upload a thing.
Users would jump off FA like rats from a sinking ship, even more than they do now. Ad revenue would go down close to 0$, and the fees wouldn't generate any revenue at all because let's face it - 90% of people just can't pay it, or don't want to pay it, and the other 10% would leave because their clients (the other 90%) left.
That's the end of FA. That's all of IMVUs investments wasted with one little change.
Isn't IMVU basically something for single lonely people to use?
Bad vibes people, BAD vibes.
And do some research that isn't parodies on YouTube by people who don't do either themselves
Neer obviously had to talk to them for a while as well as discuss things about the site's community. If things go mecha-south then I'll leave FA but so far nothing has changed as promised , aside from one advertisement from imvu with a furry avatar (crediting the creator) and notes being viewable without bringing you to a whole new page,
I Still want a few new changes like a keyword/tag content blocker for search engine, a short better onsite communication method, but maby not else everyone will swarm the popular artists needlessly, the idea needs work,
And for imvu to make an account here (without admin power) for representative reasons as well as am easy means of communication for us to them, on top of a easy DMCA guide and a flag down list for us to help review and report imvu submissions by cross referencing it with FA submissions
I've prepared to leave FA already by going on alternative sites and such.
Bs of american hospital's "pay to live hospitality" aside, yeah preparation is good but a lot of people are practically flaunting drama because of this and jumping off FA before anything even happens,
Honestly I think people want to see FA fail and fall to give them an excuse and to demonize neer further.
We can wait and see if anything happens
Then, i'll leave permanently :P
In regards to the last question, a friend of mine brought up something in regards to that when talking to me the other day.The issue with filing a DMCA Takedown for items on IMVU that have their artwork in it is that, quite frankly, you need to have an IMVU account to see the items and issue the takedown. Not only that but someone nsfw art can be taken and be put as AP products, within which case they would then need AP in order to see it and do something about it. I have to admit, it doesn't seem fair to those members of the FA community that don't have IMVU to put them in a situation where they might have to pay IMVU to get a service on their site, after making an account with them, just so they can protect their right to their own artwork.
I do personally have an IMVU account with AP and would gladly help artists who want to file a DMCA Takedown if I could, BUT it was specifically stated that the owner of the artwork would have to be the one to file this, so it's literally left artists with no other choice in the matter...
But, then again, maybe I'm looking at this wrong. If that's the case, someone please explain to me how artists without IMVU accounts can file for the takedown of their art, including nsfw art which would be marked as AP products, without having to make an IMVU account and buy AP from them.
You don't need an IMVU account to issue a DMCA take down notice.
Send your DMCA to:
Designated DMCA Agent
PO Box 390012
Mountain View, CA 94039
or
fax: +1.650.321.7263
> Not only that but someone nsfw art can be taken and be put as AP products, within which case they would then need AP in order to see it and do something about it.
Or someone could identify the link to you and then you can issue the take down based on that information.
> I have to admit, it doesn't seem fair to those members of the FA community that don't have IMVU to put them in a situation where they might have to pay IMVU to get a service on their site
They don't, see above.
though if it is possible to make a claim using a link that you cant use, then correct or not I do see some possible problems there, seeing as you never are able to check the link yourself.
Oh yeah and as probably stated before you dont need an account to look at the normal catalog. You need it for the AP stuff though.
As for art theft, well to be honest this whole 'deal' has nothing to do with art theft at all. I mean that has been going on for a long long time, and its next to impossible knowing if a person who adds the work is the actual author or not. I mean not everyone uses or can use the SAME screen name for multiple sites. There also those who use an artists screen name to put up art, when they themselves where never the artist to begin with. The biggest problem there lies in finding a way to prove who you are one way or another. Also just wanted to point out that alot of random art theft is actually in thanks to Search engines like Google. I mean just search a character name or animal type, find the picture and then you download it. In many cases you never even need to go to the owners website.
Though there are plenty of imvu users who DO credit the original artist for thier work, so its not ALL theft XD. In any case I do hope to see Some work here that is done using the imvu engine. If there are artist people here who are also on imvu then im sure they can think of plenty of artistic uses for Imvu that could be used here. Especially if you use a Screen shot room to get an image of the avatar and then draw in or Add in a back ground XD. In all cases I hope for the best for all people involved.
Do you have any suggestions on how it could be stopped? Cause I certainly cant think of anything besides keeping it all totally private, which completely ruins the point of a site where your sharing your work with others to view. the moment you put anything on the internet like art, is the moment you give people teh chance to steal it, or worse, buy it and then sell it themselves.
which its not.
theyre making a profit off someone elses work how can that EVER be ok?
Secondlife (Founded June 23rd, 2003), not only exhibits Zero paywalls for adult content, but generates most, if not all of it's income through renting land to people, selling premium accounts (which gain bonuses/discounts on land, and provides monthly stipends of in game currency to the account holder), and deducting service fees for people wanting to sell their wares through Secondlife's marketplace.
It also displays a quite literally, never before seen ability to customize one's avatar into ANYTHING you can think of. If i literally wanted to become An exact replica of the leaning tower of pisa , I could. I can become a freaking Tyrannosaurus Rex if i so desired. I can fly jet planes or X-wing fighters, I wanna be Goku today and fire a KaMeHaMeHa wave? Awesome, I can do that too. I can also have virtual sex with a twenty dicked Hydra with tits the size of the moon if I was brave/depraved enough as well.
The creativity that the users of SL are ALLOWED to have Is absolutely mind boggling. Hell, Someone even made a functioning MMORPG on the damn thing. ---> http://kotaku.com/players-built-an-.....ild-1695380972
IMVU (released April 15 2004), by comparison (and with what little knowledge/personal experience that I have of it.), offers no where near as much customize-ability and freedom to their users, and by comparison to the behemoth above, is down right laughable.
There's a reason the 'large' furry userbase that IMVU claims to have is a joke, and that's because most furries i've known are on a universally superior product, which they could (with time and effort) take advantage of creatively, to become WHATEVER THEY WANT, not some cookie cutter attempt at a cat with a human face.
There is creativity on IMVU. While there is less you can make with IMVU, it does not make it bad, IMVU is more focused on being a chatroom while SL is more focused on being a sandbox.
Furries on IMVU are also not "some cookie cutter attempt at a cat with a human face"
but as Fawk says I have seen some SCARY creative work on both imvu and secondlife, and there are plenty of DEvelopers that work on both sites. Many do first basic work on IMVU and then more enhanced versions of that work on SL.
to give an example on simplicity lets look at basic clothing.
IMVU; shirt, pants, skin, head, eyes, hair, shoes, extras. Some things can over lap others cannot.
SL: body style, body shape, top. Left upper arm, left lower arm, Right upper arm, right lower arm.. ETC
Sl lets you make some seriously customizable and fantastic outfits, and teh joy of being able to walk around. IMVU is a much simpler 'click and go' set up.
Strangely enough it was my Mother that introduced me to both imvu and SL XD.
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" To Dragoneer:
I know you’ve gotten mountains of feedback from the FA community in recent days now that the sale to IMVU was publicly revealed. Many people have voiced legitimate concerns about this acquisition because they care about their community. Yet among the thousands of comments and opinions, you specifically reached out to me on Saturday with a very personal statement. I wanted to discuss it with you in private but you didn’t respond back. So instead of continuing my public expression, I took the last two weeks to try to calm my emotions and think rationally. However, with the numerous announcements, clarifications, and Q&As issued in the wake of the acquisition, my feelings about this deal have only solidified.
I’ve been part of the fandom for over half my living life with nine of those years on FA, growing into the fandom as the fandom grew into me. Through ups and downs, glitches and storms, I’ve been distinctly mute on any criticism on you or FA because I recognized that you and the volunteer staff had exceptionally difficult tasks. Despite the unfulfilled promises and errors in judgment, I stayed quiet. But do not mistake my silence as forgiveness or implicit agreement with your decisions in the past. And now, with the acquisition by IMVU, everything has changed.
On Saturday, I tweeted that the sale of FA was “a spectacular failure of due diligence and disclosure” by you and IMVU. These words were not plucked from the air but picked with purpose and intent. It is in these words that you directly expressed disappointment that I did not contact you first and privately. However, the irony is deep: two years ago, I gave you everything I had on DMK in the hopes that you would take action behind the scenes to get rid of a leeching pest from our community; instead, nothing happened for over a month and I was forced to release my findings publicly. If you didn’t act on matters of fact despite my credibility and reputation being on the line, then I had no reason to believe that contacting you on matters of opinion would result in a different outcome.
Fundamentally, I didn’t contact you because you are no longer a furry protecting furry interests anymore. You and FA are now corporate entities who answer to stakeholders with financial interests, not the community for our well-being, and I have no qualms about voicing my opinion publicly on an entity whose goal is to monetize people for profit. I have stayed quiet in the past because we could rely on you having our best interests at heart, but don’t expect the benefit of my doubt or silence now that you and FA are part of the corporate chain and system.
That corporate system is at the heart of this discontent. Furry was the one last vestige where a fandom is truly free from corporate influence: Star Trek belongs to Paramount, Star Wars belongs to Disney, even MLP belongs to Hasbro. The Wikipedia entry for “Fandom” lists over a dozen notable ones, of which furry is the only one that is not derived from someone else’s ideas or creation. Furry has thrived on independence and creativity as we built ourselves, almost exclusively free from external influence. Although no entity can ever own our community, you alone sold our most populous platform not only to an outside corporation, but to one whose association with furry is so non-existent that their outlook for a #furrific union instantly became a universal point of derision on Twitter.
Such is the chasm between IMVU and Furaffinity, as stark as the difference between the fandom’s creative design in anthropomorphism versus the sculpturing of stereotypical Southern Californian fashion models. To make things worse, you hid the acquisition from the community for two months, miring this acquisition in public distrust and suspicion. Despite how many times you repeat it, I will never lend credence to your claim that IMVU acquired FA just for ad space and to “grow the community,” especially given how you and ownership were still and continue to be woefully unprepared for the community’s questions and concerns. What remaining shreds of your credibility have been strewn across eight journals about this deal, each of which only regurgitates the same non-answers that spawns further confusion and concern.
What is most damning, though, is that despite having two months to put together a comprehensible rollout plan, the community had to find out for ourselves that the very entity that acquired FA is profiting off our intellectual property! People know that IMVU corporate is not stealing, but it is the failure of due diligence to identify that FA was being sold to an enabler of theft who has already reaped unquestionable profits with highly questionable methods. You and IMVU then insisted that artists must and can only go through the DMCA process to remove copyright material, squandering a prime opportunity to create and build rapport and trust with the community. Even worse, there is still no resolution to how our community can monitor the rampant violations in IMVU’s pay-only adult section. In a business transaction supposedly to create synergy, you’ve created none, and from the get-go, it’s clear that you and IMVU wanted our trust on a silver platter when you neither earned nor deserve any.
I’ve kept my opinions strictly on the acquisition itself so far and have refrained from speculating on the future impact of IMVU’s ownership. That said, I believe the process to turn FA from a creative community to a corporate commodity has already begun: you and IMVU are so eager to convince us of this acquisition by touting about how many active accounts are on each site and how its traffic ranks, yet you can’t even quantify your assertion of just how “many furries” share the two communities. Furthermore, IMVU’s repeated intention to stay hands-off but only change advertising is the most direct reflection of FA as a financial and commercial commodity. It will be a matter of time of when, not if, the foundation of the website dissolves and the ugly heads of monetization will rear on FA.
At the end of the day, regardless of how much you want to sugarcoat your rhetoric, the future of FA as the largest online furry website in the world belongs to IMVU and not the community that built it, of which you were once a part. You owned FA and had every right to do whatever you wanted, but that doesn’t absolve you from criticism from a community who’s just as invested as you, especially if you nixed consideration of keeping this website within the fandom purely based on whether or not you would maintain control. Now, you’ve become merely a figurehead for IMVU, despite what you or ownership want us to believe. It’s a matter of when, not if, your tenure with IMVU ends and responsibility this website gets passed off to someone else who’s possibly as clueless about our community and fandom as their social media team. I can only wonder if you’ll sign another NDA to leave the community to fend for ourselves for months on end when this eventually happens.
For years, the community could always count on you to have our best interests in mind, but now, we face a future of corporate ownership who’s demonstrated interests are not so much creativity itself but the commercialism derived from that creativity. In the end, you spurned numerous efforts to keep the world’s largest furry community within the fandom, instead ironically selling to a company whose ad-stricken freemium service hosts users who had already been stealing and profiting off of our very community for years. Despite having two months of preparation, you absolutely failed to anticipate or prepare for the community’s skepticism of the acquisition and remain utterly inept in addressing those concerns. The community is not bound to a website and can always move, but it should have never come to this if not for years of mismanagement, ultimately leading to this unceremonious and bastardized transaction to sell out to a bidder whose motives for our fandom lives on corporate balance sheets and not the hearts and minds of our community. "
Note: This letter was provided to Dragoneer a day beforehand for review. The recipient declined to comment.
thats why i showed it to you, x3 hehe
im not trying to be a snob *shrugs*
why did you have to go and say that?
um.... then i will be the best dancing fursuit evarrrrr
no one will be able to dance to dubsetp at 280 bps but i can~
um... lets try this one
*points to icon* im not just any orange and brown fox
my fox has a past history that no one understands and totally pushes me away from the rest.
Im really shy and might come off as being mean but deep down in side i just want to be loved
but no one understands me
all the other orange foxes are just posers and just think there a fox when i know i am
also no one understands me
I have super powers
i just wish some one understood me
but no one understands me
there i cant get any more snow flake than that
i want to be a snow flake remember?
i didnt want to be with so many snow flakes that the vary act creates a snow storm of BS er...i mean individualism
i dont think i can fit all 100 genders
maybe if i was a bunny i could at lease but up the effort
i just wont fund anything (never has funded any of neers donations requests)
because with out an attorney there really isnt anything we can do about it at this point
so long as they dont click any of the adds *shrugs* theres no need
ugh too tired too lazy to post anything, bah *posh*
i was shocked to read that FA got bought up by it.....i havent seen that website sense middle school 8 some years ago~!
never used it but i saw the adds. It looked ugly back then too x3
i think it was just sold to IMVU because neer works there....simple as that.
I hear and read past journals of other websites and company's with the same amount of knowledge of furries offer WAY more money. Nope! turned down
meh
meeeeeeh
Do you really have *nothing* better to do?
So, thanks.
About the FurAffinity sale, and the issue of trade-offs.
https://dogpatchpress.wordpress.com.....new-ownership/
IMVU does a Q&A with me.
https://dogpatchpress.wordpress.com.....mvu-does-a-qa/
Community > Commodity, and the Value of WTF. Long live furries.
https://dogpatchpress.wordpress.com.....ity-commodity/
Why the 11 year olds like you think they know two fucks about logic when all you did was reading wikipedia's article about it?
Fail.
Inb4: more shitposting.
In addition:
"Pointing out a fact is not an ad hominem."
That would be true, if what you said is a fact. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't make them an "ass-licker." Keep in mind that you put up a little rant of your own, and also C&P'd an open letter, touting it as proof of corruption or... something. I dunno.It stands to reason that someone else should be able to express their opinion, even if it opposes yours.
"Why the 11 year olds like you think they know two fucks about logic when all you did was reading wikipedia's article about it?"
Ad hominem. You're attacking me, as opposed to my logic or establishing evidence of your "ass-licker" statement as fact.
Too bad that when the anger is too big, not even those articles can hide the truth.
On a personal level, I don't believe what you tout as "truth" is more reliable than an article that touches on a lot of legitimate points, and, honestly, draws back to my own opinion that FA has a terrible community that asks too much of what has essentially been a charity. IMVU can provide funding for fees and upgrades, and use its existing staff to bring about changes. I don't expect things to end pretty, and I do believe that the concept of "premium membership" is plausible down the line. But, like one of the article says: FA is continuing to operate for free, and before it was finding help where it could get it, at the pace the helpers could provide, with whatever the helpers wanted to give. To paraphrase the one article, "who wants to take out the trash?" The "hippie commune" approach, where it belongs to everyone and doesn't cost anything, is flawed since people tend to avoid the less-than-glamorous jobs. If Dragoneer can make this his full-time job and keep the site independent, while also ensuring a steady stream of funds and support to back the site... Y'know, things the site needed in order to improve, then isn't this something worth sticking around for? It's hardly the end of the world.
Reactionary rhetoric isn't going to solve the issue. If you disagree, that's fine. If you have concerns, that's fine. If you have questions, that's fine. But a lot of what you, specifically you, throw around is unfounded. You make a lot of assumptions, a lot of claims, but fail to back them up. You're suspicious, okay. A healthy amount of suspicion is fine, but yours goes way beyond that. While it's natural to be concerned about a change such as this, spreading mis- and dis-information is not going to solve the problem, nor are sophomoric insults.
And assuming that people here don't have infinite money (oh well maybe /YOU/ have infinite money), every cent that Imvu takes will be a cent that the artists will not obtain and/or a cent that they will loose.
It's really not that hard to get it.
Now, from the best that I can piece together, your model of FA's future assumes the following:
1) Absurdly high running cost per month.
2) Dragoneer's greedy, and thus skimming off the top.
3) Everyone buys art.
4) Everyone who buys art will throw all available money at art.
5) Everyone will be charged a fee eventually.
I've brushed along point #1 before, but I'm going to emphasize the following: IMVU has staff and resources currently at its disposal. Working on FA won't be nearly as much of an increase in cost as you assume. #2 has also been touched upon: Dragoneer's been doing this as a charity, putting his own money into the company that is FA, and even donation drives weren't enough to cover the costs for upkeep and upgrades. How you speak, to me, tells a story that you were somewhat fine with how FA's business model was before the buy-out, a model that kept the site under-funded and talent away due to it being based on charity.
Now, points #3&4: despite how you tout your "evidence," not everyone buys art. There are lurkers. There are those that receive gift art. There are plenty of people who don't contribute to the income of artists, or are, perhaps, rare commissioners. You also talk about any amount charged will be less for an artist, but if a $15/month subscription fee for a purely optional premium membership is introduced, then not everyone will purchase it. Again, you assume everyone will be forced to purchase it. You also add in the logic that everyone is constantly seeking to buy art, which is simply not true. If an artist has 1,000 watchers, they don't have 1,000 potential buyers at any given moment. Plenty are simply watching to see the art. Some are interested, but at certain times. (The beginning of the year, for instance, sees a spike in commission interest due to income tax returns, and many commissioners tone things back around Christmas in order to apply those funds to gifts for friends and families.) Being an artist is a rough job, yes, but sometimes things go slowly and you don't see a lot of interest, and other times you have a lot of interest but can't take on all that work.
Your simple-minded approach of the entire situation at hand doesn't really cover any realistic possibilities besides the chance things go to shit on FA. But how long have we been waiting for features? For bug fixes? Folders? These things are caused by a lack of funding, time, work, and a clear structure to how things should be done. You can't sit there and say pre-IMVU FA was perfect. The artist community has, simply put, thrived due to an insistence to keep the site free and open, at the cost of the technical aspects.
While what you state is simple, the nuances of reality are lost out in your claims. So, I propose this to you: is it that hard to understand that things are more complicated than you make them out to be? That, perhaps, you don't have all the information, or are producing straw-man arguments in order for your logic to be sound?
If you don't like the lack of features, go to another site. If you don't like the TOS, then go to another site. If you don't like the administration, go to another site. If you don't like IMVU, then don't use the program. I've no opinion of IMVU one way or another, but a little bit of research does indicate that IMVU encourages personal projects from its employees to grow and thrive. To blame the company for not keeping track of every single individual item in their store is like asking the government to inspect every individual grain of rice. While it is a bit of a dick move to require a DMCA takedown notice to get unlawfully published content taken down, you, again, need to look at the legal ramifications and protections that the company takes in order to keep itself afloat.
If you want to talk about dick moves, how about municipalities forcing defendants to pay for their public defenders, the lawyers provided because they can't afford their own? Or the absurdity of municipal violations? Or all the fees a big bank charges to allow you the privilege of loaning them your own money?
What's not hard to get is that you're operating on painfully simple logic, and assuming a strict series of events happen. What's not hard to get is that you are, from the onset, biased ("Dragoneer's greed"), hypocritical (multiple instances of complaining of someone using ad hominems and rhetoric, while using ad hominems and rhetoric yourself to try and make your point), and lacking follow-through on your logic.
I don't claim to know everything, but I'm taking a cautious approach. I've got a Weasyl. I've been looking into Tumblr. While these can open up some new ventures, though, FA is still the most valuable asset when it comes to art. To use your logic here, to drop FA altogether is to cut funds from artists altogether, yet that is exactly what you're saying to do while, simultaneously, bemoaning the downfall of artists. That's not IMVU's fault, but an individual's, and a lot of what you claim makes IMVU bad is actually common among the internet. Piracy? Pretty damn common. Look at image boards like e621, that can take away traffic from an artist or leak a comic an artist released in order to raise funds. Want to talk about monetizing users? Look at Facebook. Buying up smaller companies that could've grown into wonderful, community-driven projects? Twitter. Stifling competition in order to unify people under a few specific, rigid and expensive systems? Apple. But those aren't fully relevant, and I'm sure you'll have some complaint or another for drawing real-life parallels.
There's money in furry. Furry is a business, it always has been. If IMVU is promising to fix all these problems that everyone, including you, are complaining about, I'm willing to give them a chance. I don't mind ads, really. I don't mind an optional paid subscription, honestly. I have no qualms with FA's TOS. But, that doesn't quite cover the point.
The simple fact is that the FA you're touting hasn't existed. Period. FA has always been in someone's ownership, not the community's, but the community benefited immensely from it. Someone's been paying for it out of pocket, because they didn't charge anything. That's where the problems come in, compounded by being years out of date, bloated, riddled with bugs. If it was staying afloat, it was barely doing so.
So, for the time being, while absolutely nothing has changed, I'm staying here, because reactionary rhetoric isn't productive, fleeing isn't going to benefit myself, and I'm not afraid of a little change.
Basically: your rhetoric v.s. statistics.
Feel free to bury your head in the sand. I don't ask that you post a lot, but assuming that a lot of text equals rhetoric is a simplistic approach, and your response isn't appealing to logic but, again, emotion, and certainly lacking statistics.
Also, you can't tell me to bury my face in the sand when your whole body is in there.
I mean in all honesty, all that appears to be happening is.. Imvu has some ad space on a website with lots of traffic, in return then give said website some extra cash to help them out. In short the pretty much just bought permanat ad space right? So... if there not changing anything.. what is the big deal? REading all this stuff I have to wonder if im just missing something here.. So any help would be appreciated X_X.
This face sums up how im feeling visually In reality though im just confused. Like everyone is panicing over pretty much nothing at all.
If enough folks do that, he'll be banned, and FA will, as result, be improved.
Thank you for the concern, though. I do appreciate it.
+1, excellent post.
You're spreading fear.
IMVU has been known to be *against* furries in the past. Why the sudden change?
I just want the CEO to actually say it so there isn't wall of BS for them to hide behind. I'd rather them just be honest and upfront about it.
How do you plan on monetizing FurAffinity?
What assurances can you make that furry adult content will not be censored in any way, shape, or form beyond what it currently is?
And what "improvements" are you planning on implementing to expand FurAffinity's community? I hope you understand my concern regarding unspecified "improvements" to a community of people with rather niche interests.
If they DO something then I'll....idk teleport bread for three days? It's not like I actually contribute anything, all I do is collect smut and bits that I find interesting. Which is mostly smut......
THE REICH JUST WANTS TO HELP YA KNOW.
Again, another reason to read the TOS, and to back away if you don't agree with 'em.
IMVU spells trouble... I'm concerned about what will happen in the future of FA!
Thanks-a-lot =|
Weasyl, Inkbunny, not sure about DA
Same for DA. It shows total numbers of your notifications, only when you click on that number you see in detail where the new ones are.
Can't say anything about IB, because i'm not there.
Recently, there was a rather LARGE mis-step that Dragoneer made. With it, I laughed my ass off, and told myself ' You know what? If people don't see what is in front of them with THIS one, well, shit. '
Either way, after that, I'm pretty much done. For those wanting to know what I've seen, ask around, some people will be happy to share. Me? I'm done here, I'm out. I've warned people away from this site for two years, staying behind to keep the flow going, to pass along the word.
Now? There's someone else doing the job, and I think it is about time I retire from it.
Keep up the fight, Rena. Shills gunna shill, and some will listen. Eventually, supporters will become detractors. It's the magical cycle of FA.
So, why is it then that the footer of Fur Affinity states: "Fur Affinity is © 2005-2015 IMVU"? Genuine question.