Bit dramatic, I think. Understandable, but dramatic.

Speaking as one who dramatically criticizes things as a hobby, please read my whole statement before automatically deciding I'm siding against him.

Well, it's November. He's almost as well versed in drama as he is in business and economics.

I read the letter and it needs a lot of work :\

Furry interests? So like... porn? That's my interest, love me some amazing male mating.
What furry interests? Be specific. This letter is just rambling about nothing. Reminds me of a child spouting hatred about his older brother, yet, nothing is really said but I HATE YOU!

_

Secondly, hating someone because they are 'seen as a corporate worker' just reminds me of homeless pot smoking hippies. Hating 'the man' and how he's a money loving greedy poopy face. Built by a community, supported by finance, I'm happy it's not my finance.

I do not know the financials of FA, what I do know is that Dragoneer hasn't don't anything wrong with the money. Website is completely free, all it's features, unlimited posting, free, it's constantly watched and trolls are quickly dealt with. Sorry that's a terrible thing? Sure the coding is still from 2004, but it's better to be functional and old than upgrading to complete shit (I'm looking at you skype). So far IMVU hasn't done a complete invasion to take over the website, what's to fear or hate?
There are a lot of good things that can be done with FA in improving, but I don't know the financials and I cannot attack or defend where is project phoenix, other than, where the fuck is it?

_

The only reason why I am defending Dragoneer is because I like playing the devils advocate, thinking of the possible response. He's going to look at this and roll his eyes and the paragraphs of rambling, I know I did.

This whole argument on valuing trust, community and interests holds no ground. You have to pin the problem, then back up your thoughts.

And please don't bring the argument of art theft, I already made a journal how your shit can be legally stolen: http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/6518729/ and why you shouldn't get pissed off about it.

I agree with u November, not sure if u are who wrote this but I generally feel the same.

"What remaining shreds of your credibility have been strewn across eight journals about this deal, each of which only regurgitates the same non-answers that spawns further confusion and concern."

This line is what I've been telling myself since the news came out... I approve this letter so much

The point that stands out most is the DCMA. For those who do not know, you must PAY to even have someone in their department read the file you are trying to get taken down. So I got to pay 1$-50$ just so someone could even consider my character / art / literature / model, etc etc, be removed from their site due to someone stealing it and making a profit from it? Goes to show you IMVU's attempts to only further gain profit from the theft of others.

I have long since disabled my profiles here but need to go back through them and wipe out the art / photos individually since FA's "disable account" doesn't disable people from still seeing your uploaded content.
Furthermore, all interactions I have ever had in person with 'Neer have been less than pleasant. Only to further reinforce statements made here in the letter and through other sources of media that have been brought to light by other sources.

There has been plenty of issues here on FA that need addressed, and not from just a tech / coding p.o.v., but one from the adminship and moderators too. So many times have I filed a ticket and it has gone unanswered or never been viewed (all of my tickets are still labeled as open as far back as 2011, one of which outlining with proof another artist on here was, still is, and will continue, to make profit off of stealing my ex's artwork and lines).

In the end, we always have DeviantArt, Weasyl, Inkbunny, and SoFurry to turn to as our new haven when this place hits the bottom of the pile.
Either way, I sincerely doubt FA's downfall will be the last straw to break this "community" apart in any sort of violent way. Though, I'll be frank: the community has done a fine job of destroying itself over the years little by little. However, those who have invested as much time as you have, November, are those who keep the community strong.

Thank you for sharing this with us.
~Tanek

This is incorrect. The DMCA is completely free to file.

http://www.devtopics.com/how-to-fil.....mca-complaint/

Filing a DMCA is free, and part of your legal rights.

I would like to add that while his statement isn't correct, it still holds a grain of truth. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is a slew of content that is considered mature or adult on IMVU that can only be viewed via Access Pass which is roughly $20. As stated in the IMVU VGRP(Virtual Goods Rating Policy), a lot of the suggestive nature that is only viewable by said pass including nudity, sexual themes, mature humor, alcohol/tobacco use and reference kind of goes hand in hand with the more popular images on FA itself.

My main concern and clarification of what I just said, is that there is without a doubt a myriad of content barred by the Access Pass that cannot be acknowledged or viewed by any concerned FA user to assist in the DMCA process, unless they create an account on IMVU, purchase an Access Pass and look for themselves. Which in itself is a catch 22 for those people. An artist may or may not want to support IMVU while keeping their content safe and capitalized only to themselves. But with the way things are currently, they have to give IMVU revenue and traffic to see if there's even the possibility of their art being used in the mature content section.

Please, correct me if I'm wrong. I hope to high heaven that I'm wrong.

Right... to a point. thats mostly if the DMCA gets to the person that posted the content or even IF the CEOs and owner(s) of the site even pays any attention to the problems at hand and takes action.

"Ideally you should file a DMCA complaint with each of the splog’s advertisers, its web host, feed service, the U.S. Copyright office, and of course the splog itself, if you are lucky enough to find contact information."

The Copyright Offices are limited to what they can do. Best case in example would have to be a 3D designer - Asri Falcone, who had her 3D art stolen and resold for only $1 each. It took her many weeks and a lawyer for anything to get fixed. She even sent DMCA to the hosts and no action was taken till it went to court. Which costs lot of money to start btw. And most lawyers don't know a lot about online cases. Lucky for her, the work she placed in was worth a lot.

another example: http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/4343379/ and this one was right on this site. Even if this is more of a personal info issue.

A DMCA is as limited as the host of the website that got the report.

They didn't acquire "us", they acquired the site. (It's sort of illegal to sell people.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0BTdo6qGwo

This is silly

Time for armchair analysts (haha anal) to criticize it, saying they read it, but showing little to no comprehension of the letter.

I like the sentence :
"Furry was the one last vestige where a fandom is truly free from corporate influence: Star Trek belongs to Paramount, Star Wars belongs to Disney"

Furry is an art form. It's like saying modern architecture belong to Apple and impressionism to Sega, it's just impossible.


I'm more concern of what corporate influence could do to FA specifically as an art gallery website rather than what it could do to the "community" or in other terms : I just don't care yet.

YOU can do whatever you want. WE all make decisions for ourselves (i.e. YOU can move), so don't speak for the whole community. After all, a lot of us have put a lot of our life into the fandom, so there's no need to dwell on exceptionalism, either.

Here's a thought: this is the world we live in, and furry is getting way too big to not grow up. Would you rather all of the original creators of the fandom get cut out while Disney or some other evil empire comes in and makes all the money? My jury is still out on what the full effects of the transition will be. But, you shouldn't turn the fact that companies are taking interest in our lifestyle into an apocalypse of sorts. What happens to FA is not a matter of popular decision, and there are indeed plenty of other sites you can take your traffic and business to if you're disgruntled. You've been in the fandom long enough to see how massively it has grown; furries are starting to, and soon to, make a real impact on mainstream culture. Sites that want to survive are bound to grow, and should be willing to adapt. FA and IMVU have (and had) common interests. The social and legal ramifications of that are surely to come, but if you want to drop out, drop out. Just don't speak for all of us.

"Fundamentally, I didn’t contact you because you are no longer a furry protecting furry interests anymore."
So what about this whole website being a giant pain in the ass for him? Both financially and from a community point of view? Do you remember a time when people were actually happy to have FA and when they didn't constantly bitch and moan about 'Neer supposedly fucking things up? Because I sure don't!
Personally I am just amazed that he didn't quit yet. Because I sure would have.

In 2007 I moved to Kyrgyzstan and took a job as a government contractor just to be able to pay for the site. I literally had to move to a lil' country on the border of China living in awful conditions to be able to fund the site that year.

I've given up a lot to make FA happen. I get I've failed in some aspects (updating it, improvements) but it's always been my goal to promote the site, the community and its artists.

November did contact me before posting this open letter, but gave me an ultimatum to respond before he posted it publicly. I told him to go ahead and do it because I legitimately didn't feel anything I had to say would change his mind as he seemed rather adamant in his opinions.

Eh, some things could have gone better over the years, sure. But ultimately this is still a functional website that hosts the biggest furry community on the net. So that is something to be proud of ^^

I just think this letter is a bit overly dramatic. Everyone can have their opinion on the matter, but openly calling you out on a decision that you made concerning what is your property? I think that goes a little too far.
People love freaking out, that's just how the internet works I guess. I give it two weeks until the nerd rage susides for the most part ;D

I made a decision that FA needs a full time staff. People who can dedicate their time to the site 100%. It's easy for a smaller site because you don't have the volume. I was working 60 hour a week minimums (upwards of 80 hours) for the past few years, and it really ate into my time. I couldn't devote enough time to make FA the site it needed to be.

So I made a choice. FA needed full time staff, and we needed to change how we worked. We needed a mental shift to put users first, and we've been working towards that.

Not everyone will be happy with the decision, but that's to be expected. Change can be scary.

Change is always scary.
But you know what I am most concerned about right now? Artists who make most of their income through commissions on FA making the rash decision to just get up and leave the site over night. I've seen it happen during the last "mass panic". And some artists on my watchlist got into some serious financial troubles because of it. Ultimately it was their choice to do it but still, it worries me that it will happen again.

Yes, in fact, I do. I had tons of offers for cash to just sell the site and walk away, but I refused. I wanted to fix the site and make it better across the board. That's all I've ever wanted to do.

See, as much as I do think maybe FA would be better with someone else at the helm (and I mean nothing personal in that, I assure you); I do, at the very least, respect you for wanting to do right by us, even if that intention doesn't always come across.

Not gonna say I approve all your decisions, but I believe that you indeed did a lot for the fandom and sacrified time and energy into it more than most of your detractors.
For that thank you.

Well good on you.

You know, I find it hilarious that you essentially take the stance that this website IS the fandom. It is not, it never has been, and it never will be. We have so many conventions run by different people, so many creators making and posting to multiple sites, that I don't see how Dragoneer's actions on this website do anything but to potentially corporate-ize ONE furry site that was already in bed with IMVU long before the sale.

Frankly, I think this reaction is...well, reactionary and over-dramatic. I'm not saying I agree with Dragoneer, but it's one site. We've been around long before FA, and we'll last through its end, if it ever comes. Treating this as the subsidization of furry as a whole is silly, and frankly feel it reveals your personal needs to stir up trouble and insert yourself in the middle of it to gain attention for it.

We can move away from this site if want to. I won't argue you have good points, but furry is still a consumer-funded community. If we really take umbrage with the way they run the site, we leave. It's not like anyone's EXCLUSIVELY here, after all.

Besides, it's in IMVU's benefit to change the advertising as little as possible if they want to maintain our population. Hell, if they're going to make those changes, why haven't done it?

Regardless, my post isn't about IMVU or Dragoneer. It's about November trying to jockey for attention and furry advancement out of it, as he does with EVERY controversy he's involved in.

We can move away from this site if we want to. We can leave your friends behind. Because they don't post art, and if they don't post art, then they're no friends of mine.

Does the safety dance

I see you and raise, sir: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-bIhCBSrzU

I think everyone should turn off their computers and go outside for a little bit.people will always steal your work and potentially profit from it if you continue to post it for free or even for pay. I feel like I'm in high school reading about these issues everyone has.

Not bad, November.

Sweet fucking Celestia man, Have some faith in Dragoneer. He's been doing what he could for years now protecting FA through all the problems and bullshit, he takes a step to basically make the site better and every drama whore decides to act like it's the end of the world? Use ya damned brains man, Just reading the comments from the man himself on this journal affirms this, he gives a shit a lot more then most on this site as far as I've been reading through the comments on the update journals and such to keep FA's users informed. I've followed the shit through the years I've been here on Fa and it's never been easy, money is hard to come by and through everything, Ddoser's and bullshitters Fa still stands. It is the largest furry community site in existence, and with that comes it's fair share of problems and concerns. But again, Fa still stands through it all with Dragoneer at the helm. Him and the Fa staff have kept it afloat no matter the problems and honestly the hate I see him getting, he's a way better man then me cause I'd have given up by now from the ungratefulness that's so rampant now.

and the art thievery? Do you have any idea how many sites on the net, Other then IMVU, do exactly that? I can name a nice handful right now, and none have ever gotten this much shit for it. High and mighty Second Life's been plagued by this too, always over looked for that one. some sites out there exist soulfully for distributing the works of others, It's handled as it's discovered cause the part of FA users that watch for that kind of stuff are swift.

I see your concern but at the same time, take the time to pull up your waders and walk through the shit to the facts and what's really happening. That's all I have to say cause I outlined this in my journal on the whole FA/IMVU thing, and I'm glad to say those who follow me share my sentiment that we back dragoneer and that now with the resources IMVU can offer, that next step can be taken to improving this fucking awesome site we already have.

- Synninide

The white-knightery is very strong in this one.

Not white knighting, just so very tired of seeing this over and over again.

A friend wanted me to relay the following message for you:

"For years, the community could always count on you to have our best interests in mind"

Just wanted to point out that Dragoneer never had the community's best interests in mind 24/7. He was (and still is) incompetent at answering the many grievances of the site, as was he incompetent at hiring reputable moderators and assorted technicians to help improve the site. He has perpetually shown that he consistently fails at transparency, and that helping and listening to the community are not in his best interests.

I get that you're trying to butter up the message here and there - but if I were you I wouldn't sugarcoat it too much.

I don't know if that's true though. In the past, no matter how incompetent the job was done, if at all, it wasn't that a higher power was decreeing that he spend time and effort on it. But now, the external influence from corporate will always supersede any innate well-to-do intentions that drives any decision making. Yes, there may be some fluff in the way I worded it and the change may be subtle, but I still think the underlying idea remains consistent.

Except for advertising, the site is still run independently. I have it in writing.

Haters always gonna hate, lets see them come up with an alternative.
protip- they wont, they dont have the drive, the knowhow, the ability and the backing.
furries just seem to spew drama.

I'd like everyone who always complain about those who have to take hard decisions to build their own website, team, spend just as much time as Neer spent on FA and come back to tell us their experience.

It's too easy to criticize when all you have to do is complain.

I am not happy with this change either, but this is indeed overreacting :/

We are. Just because we're not flying off the handle doesn't mean that we aren't going to respond if they do something that bothers us. It just means we're going to wait and see if they fuck things up any worse. Patience can be a useful skill.

At what point will patience be rewarded for the users of FA? There's only so much waiting that anyone can do before they give the fuck up and move on to websites that provide better, punctual service.

I have yet to see that any of the other sites provide any better and more punctual service than FA, but I'll admit to being less than observant at times.

DeviantArt. Even DeviantArt has provided a better and more punctual service. Take a look outside of this furry echochamber and remove your rose tinted glasses once in a while.

Uhh...we're discussing FURRY art sites, are we not? It doesn't matter how good DA is, they don't allow the majority of adult content that FA, IB, SF and Weasyl do. Your point isn't wrong, but I fail to see the validity in discussing furries and furry art sites.

I was actually talking about art sites in general, really, regardless of what content they allow. As for furry sites in particular, any of the aforementioned sites would fit the bill - if FA's users weren't so set upon clutching onto the "but FA has the largest community!" claim. FA's popularity is the only thing keeping it relevant.

It's human nature to stick with those things that have stood over time, even if they're not very good at what they are. And the problem is that the other sites all have their own niche issues.

I won't deny that other sites have their own issues - but at this point anything's better than FA and its myriads of exploits and failings.

I'm not saying it should be, either. I'm just saying FA has survived a lot, and I see no reason to jump ship when it can't be definitively proven that the ship's sinking. Other sites may be better, but none of them seem to have the same brand strength as FA. The site sucks, but because it's been around so long, it has a brand and a name that people keep using because of its history. I have no idea what the user breakdown is, but I wouldn't be surprised either way; my guess would be that FA's brand is enough to keep it on top, though.

Please don't think I don't see or acknowledge your criticisms; I actually tend to agree with you, this site itself is inferior to all three other art sites. But I think that blindly jumping to a new site only to come back weeks or months later is immature and reactionary, especially since I get the impression that FA has the highest user-base (but again, assumption). Higher user base means higher exposure, hence why it's still used. That's all that I really mean. ^.^ And like I said, I have issues with all of the art sites, but in the case of FA, the exposure rates tend to outweigh the frustrations I deal with as opposed to the other sites.

While I agree to nearly everything in that letter, I do have to say that your expectations with Sean were WAY too high.