FA+
Shop
09/24/2015 - FA Forum Status
10 years ago
🏳️🌈💖Enjoy the site? Please consider supporting us via the links below!💖🏳️🌈
⭐ FA+ ⭐ SHOP ⭐ KO-FI ⭐
Journal Start
FA's forums were started way back in the long long ago, in the before time (2005) to provide a secondary home for the Fur Affinity community after the site went offline for some time. Over the years, the forums have jumped through several hosts and VPS until tech staff member, Carenath, offered to host and maintain them in 2009. The offer was accepted on the grounds that an offsite forum location was beneficial in case the FA hardware or colocation facility were experiencing issues, in which case we could still maintain the forum functionality and deliver status updates.
The agreement, however, did not include a transfer of ownership of any kind whatsoever.
We appreciate Carenath’s contribution while he was hosting the forums for us in the intervening years. The community as a whole benefited from this generosity, especially on the occasions when Fur Affinity went down the forums remained online.
Roughly a month ago, we requested that our forum moderation team sign NDAs, just as all our current main site staff had already done. Since the mods and forum staff had access to view user information (such as IP and email addresses, and post history) as well as the ability to reset passwords, we wanted to ensure that all staff were in agreement to protect user data. Privacy is something we value and take seriously. The forum moderation team, as a whole, declined to sign the NDA and resigned from their positions; and we respected their decision to do so.
However, this left the forum in something of a temporary state of limbo. With the mods gone, chaos erupted on the forums. We had begun to initiate plans to re-staff the forums, and instituted a new lead moderator while we began to discuss mod recruitment. During this time, the forum host (Carenath) removed FA staff from all administration levels and set himself as the forum’s sole administrator.
Discussion began that he and others wanted to split the forum community, and offer a second venue for those who wished to post with fewer policies, building on the a duplicate copy of the Fur Affinity forums. Since Fur Affinity DOES NOT share user information with third parties (not even with our parent, IMVU), we could not permit a copy of our own forums to be used by a third party. This would have, in effect, given ownership of tens of thousands of forum accounts to said third party, with no way for us to control or protect personal data.
We opened a discussion with Carenath to try to resolve this matter. Resolution was postponed until after FA United due to the majority of staff assisting with the convention. However, before the convention was over and while staff were away, the forums were put online under a different name (Phoenix) and moved to a different URL without permission. This caused a bit of a panic, and we reached out to try to resolve this.
In the end, we were able to come to a mutually agreeable conclusion to restore FA's forums. Phoenix (their copy) would be removed and we would restore FA forums, along with upgrades to them.
Q: When will the forums return?
A: Once we can institute long overdue upgrades to the forum software and begin forum mod recruitment (which we will be announcing sometime in the next week if all goes as planned).
Q: Why move to Xenforo?
A: We’re looking at moving to Xenforo ( https://xenforo.com ). It’s a lightweight forum software which focuses on what forums should be: being solid forums, nothing more. Over the years, vBulletin (our former software) evolved into an odd hybrid of social media-platform and forum platform that became bloated, slow, and didn’t quite focus on what it needed to do well.
Q: Will the forums still be available in case the main site goes down?
A: We’re still determining where we will be hosting for the forums. Should something happen to the main site, you can always check http://status.furaffinity.net and/or our presence on Twitter and Facebook.
Q: I heard FA/IMVU issued a cease-and-desist to have the Phoenix forums removed?
A: Despite some rumors, we did not issue a cease-and-desist, nor a DMCA against Phoenix. We were able to rectify our issues peacefully with the all parties involved without having to resort to legal intervention.
The agreement, however, did not include a transfer of ownership of any kind whatsoever.
We appreciate Carenath’s contribution while he was hosting the forums for us in the intervening years. The community as a whole benefited from this generosity, especially on the occasions when Fur Affinity went down the forums remained online.
Roughly a month ago, we requested that our forum moderation team sign NDAs, just as all our current main site staff had already done. Since the mods and forum staff had access to view user information (such as IP and email addresses, and post history) as well as the ability to reset passwords, we wanted to ensure that all staff were in agreement to protect user data. Privacy is something we value and take seriously. The forum moderation team, as a whole, declined to sign the NDA and resigned from their positions; and we respected their decision to do so.
However, this left the forum in something of a temporary state of limbo. With the mods gone, chaos erupted on the forums. We had begun to initiate plans to re-staff the forums, and instituted a new lead moderator while we began to discuss mod recruitment. During this time, the forum host (Carenath) removed FA staff from all administration levels and set himself as the forum’s sole administrator.
Discussion began that he and others wanted to split the forum community, and offer a second venue for those who wished to post with fewer policies, building on the a duplicate copy of the Fur Affinity forums. Since Fur Affinity DOES NOT share user information with third parties (not even with our parent, IMVU), we could not permit a copy of our own forums to be used by a third party. This would have, in effect, given ownership of tens of thousands of forum accounts to said third party, with no way for us to control or protect personal data.
We opened a discussion with Carenath to try to resolve this matter. Resolution was postponed until after FA United due to the majority of staff assisting with the convention. However, before the convention was over and while staff were away, the forums were put online under a different name (Phoenix) and moved to a different URL without permission. This caused a bit of a panic, and we reached out to try to resolve this.
In the end, we were able to come to a mutually agreeable conclusion to restore FA's forums. Phoenix (their copy) would be removed and we would restore FA forums, along with upgrades to them.
Q: When will the forums return?
A: Once we can institute long overdue upgrades to the forum software and begin forum mod recruitment (which we will be announcing sometime in the next week if all goes as planned).
Q: Why move to Xenforo?
A: We’re looking at moving to Xenforo ( https://xenforo.com ). It’s a lightweight forum software which focuses on what forums should be: being solid forums, nothing more. Over the years, vBulletin (our former software) evolved into an odd hybrid of social media-platform and forum platform that became bloated, slow, and didn’t quite focus on what it needed to do well.
Q: Will the forums still be available in case the main site goes down?
A: We’re still determining where we will be hosting for the forums. Should something happen to the main site, you can always check http://status.furaffinity.net and/or our presence on Twitter and Facebook.
Q: I heard FA/IMVU issued a cease-and-desist to have the Phoenix forums removed?
A: Despite some rumors, we did not issue a cease-and-desist, nor a DMCA against Phoenix. We were able to rectify our issues peacefully with the all parties involved without having to resort to legal intervention.
It's not very effective...
Too much antagonism for the community, too much risk of slander. IP issues...
Bad divorce split. One side plays positive the other side joins vivisector and burned furs and goes about its own way.
If forums are necessary then they'll have to probably be rebuilt under a different ideal.
and please explain how going back to any old post half the people have been banned? Either there are a lot of bad users or a lot of powertripping admins
Personally, I don't have time for the forums, especially with admins like that running the place.
At least my hull taking has improved considerably; so, in case someone decides to throw rocks at me over this or something, I'll be more likely to remain relatively unscathed.
(jesus christ i made a lame eve online joke on a furry website)
If you want to bring grievance with people and convince them to believe in what you say, start by using your real account, friend. :)
I am extremely angry that it has come to this, because just a few days ago I thought this issue was over and done with. We had made peace (or so we thought) with FA and parted amicably but I guess that was a lie too.
I only brought up how disingenuous it is to hide behind an anonymous account and browbeat others instead of explaining to them what it is they might not understand. :)
Such a thing only hurts their legitimacy if they have a desire beyond trolling. Especially on the Interbutts. Where people say ThingsTM. A lot. And are scared to face punishment or censure for what they say (Even when censure can backfire on the one[s] doing the censoring when it's made obvious...).
tl;dr Conversation does more good than arguing and people should nut up and own their opinions if they don't want to be ignored.
I'm writing that one down. *^^*
*hugs*
*otter-squeezies*
It's extremely regrettable this situation has lead to so much hostility. It's not what I personally would have wanted, it's not what remaining staff as a whole would have wanted, and I'm sure it's not what you wanted when you resigned.
I would have asked elsewhere in private but you chose not to make those available.
He's a programmer for his day job, and you do not know the terms of his contact worth IMVU.
Third, twitter is designed to be expedient. FA is NOT.
I know he said he works full time on FA lol so uhh
important announcements should be on furaffinity. end of. not everyone on FA is going to have a twitter, but everyone on FA has an FA. people are allowed to be upset for not being warned because how would we know that we had to go to an unrelated website for an important update like new features and downtime, which is SUPPOSED to be announced on the fender account.
There has also been a forced break for the duration of FA:U as most stuff were involved in the con's management.
The decision to separate on the forums were made WELL over a month ago and the return of server admin on forums to 'position 1' was the first week of September.
With IP and legality anything official (removing a link is not a matter of legality) probably had to be signed between both parties and notarized before FA could do anything on its "official account".
Even with papers and sanitized PR this could lead to legal action, or further vigilantism.
PR is about image. Never about fact. This account is for PR and not for discussion about things under client-attourney privilidge.
Again though with PR as it is posting anything really isnt relavant anymore IMHO.
Yet FA continues to exist as it does despite whatever happens.
as well as that i AM on multiple websites because of this. the only reason i'm here is because it's the best for commissions. if i start getting more work on other sites then ill be gone.
I just it up to history. This is the 5th or 6 site that has started to collapse under similar issues. Not just with furries.
Again, Carenath would not have done anything drastic if the forum link was not removed first. Removing the link signalled to us that they were done talking.
Registration was closed as a result leading current accounts to still post but the forums were still technically running. It is a common extreme moderation attempt when you are undergoing an undesired attack.
Severance happened later.
Edit: Yayyy broken comments
And considering all the data breaches FA has had in the past, I'm really not comfortable sending them my ID. Besides I'm not even American.
I'm really on neither side here, but this point doesn't even seem relevant to the discussion. Why the contrarian attitude?
There was only you trying to be the middle man, and nothing came about it because Dragoneer refused any option where he didn't have 100% total power.
Why not put your foot in the ground and just demand transfer of them over to FA's own servers and get it over with already? -.-
It is time to just put your foot down, say enough is enough, tell them to let you transfer the things over to your own servers, or start taking it by force.
You have slowly ever since IMVU came on done things to FA and improved it with the layout. Show when push comes to shove you have the balls to take action dammit!
Show us why FA is the most used site and why it deserves to still be!
FA no matter how you twitch and turn it own the FA Forums.
How was that a sign that you would be willing to negotiate a split and let the forum-community survive? Honest question here.
And seeing as Carenath paid for hosting... I might be wrong here but whoever pays for it, owns it imo.
Carenath offered to host the forums of free. Hosting the forums does not transfer ownership.
I mean, I am sorry if I sound snippy, but you just basically C&D a rather big art-forum and took away income from artists. Which could've all probably been avoided by communicating more with the forum and by being more transparent, y'know? :(
A: Despite some rumors, we did not issue a cease-and-desist, nor a DMCA against Phoenix. We were able to rectify our issues peacefully with the forum owner without having to resort to legal intervention. "
and the forums are being restored just as they were before all this :)
As for the rest, if you want to be technical about it: I saw that Yak warned Carenath that one was in the works. A threat of legal action may not technically be legal action, but the result is the same..
What's even worse is that by threatening said legal action, a memorial thread for a recently deceased and very dear community member was also pulled offline. This whole ordeal is messy and terrible, to be quite honest...
From the description of things, Carenath decided to pretty much hijack the place and make a renamed copy of it. A copy including everybody's data.
Do you get why intervention was needed now?!
They wanted a new forum devoid of the previous culture? Then they do not get to build a "new" one based on that previous culture. It's as simple as that.
Is this worded clearly enough for you now?
But it is a fact that if FA's TOS says "Third parties do not ever get FA user data", then legally they couldn't allow Carenath to keep a copy of the FAF data if he split off and became a third party. They could in fact get sued over that.
And if you think Dragoneer has sold the data out to IMVU, who are also a third party, then you should start a crowdfund to hire a lawyer and sue.
It is probably what destroys most larger sites after a while.
How much do they pay you to shit what you just said out of your mouth?
I am an unpaid volunteer, as are the vast majority of staff members, and I will respectfully ask you to keep in mind the newspost commenting rules in the journal header before making further comments. Your concerns can be voiced without being disrespectful to other posters.
You're a staff and I've been here since 2007 so I'll give you some pointers free of charge, kiddo.
You won't last. You'll either resign because you won't be able to handle that shit anymore, or you'll get fired from your position for whatever reason, probably because you'll have shined a light on something that'll make neer or his clique look bad. It's only a matter of time.
I've made that observation based on the dozens of people who held staff position over the years who aren't here anymore.
I realize that you're upset. It's still up to you how you channel that emotion. I'm simply suggesting that you do so more constructively than the comment I initially replied to. You also may not want to call people older than you 'kiddo' - it is usually seen as pretty patronizing.
I'm not going to discuss past staff members, out of respect for them. I know myself, I know the people I work with, and I know what job I do. That's enough for me.
I think you need to seek out some anger management classes ASAP!
Your Terms of Service says absolutely nothing about data ownership, and you have no publicly facing privacy policy.
It's one thing to say "This forum's gettin' too brown-nosey! I'm gonna go start my own, with blackjack and hookers! Who wants to join me?" It's another to "start your own" by copypasting an existing one wholesale, with everyone's data, regardless of whether they wanted to join or were even aware of the new forum.
I've no wish to spend my time in a shouting-match here.
Carenath had the data... but as a part of FA, not as a third party. It's actually an important legal distinction. FA's TOS says explicitly that third parties do not get the data ever. They could actually get sued over letting someone possess it in that someone's capacity as a third party.
I made no unilateral decision to hijack anything, and in fact, an agreement was made to split the forums pending discussion of data ownership and I was willing to delete any data FA considered "private" as the community was primarily interested in the public content which we did not want to see destroyed.
I do have to admit your making yourself sole administrator sounds a bit shady, but there could be more to that as well.
The community itself (not just admins) due to lack of trust with Site administration and refusal to sign the NDA (which IMVU has the will and desire to go after people for) and as an admin you held a poll on the forum citing that "the community has decided we will split".
You then took control of the server to protect the integrity as individuals began to "shit post" once the bulk of moderators resigned citing my above statements and removed the site owners from having forum privilidges (without their consent). The community itself then decided to start planning (as well as making legal strategy as the C+D paranoia erupted) how to move. Then as the server admin you promptly re-directed the forum server's DNS to your own which resulted in the prompt removal of the link after giving an unrealistic deadline in the middle of a convention. As to who copied the private data first--remains a mystery best left to copyright lawyers and not trial by public.
If anything I see this as a copy of what Arcturus did back in 2005 to the original mainsite. Justifications and reasoning for actions is neutral. Beyond that the rest is left to subjectivity and client-attourney privilidge.
Splitting was one of the possible options that was on the table that I was willing to discuss and mediate between both sides.
The law binds us to keep Personal Identifiable Information and other private information safe, but there are ways to leave a copy running that does not contain any of that.
Emails, IP addresses, post edit histories, private messages and other information of that sort could have been cleaned up leaving only the thread and post data, as well as user accounts with no data attached; and with an option for their removal if the user wished for it.
This was the option I was going to follow up on immediately after resuming the negotiations after FA:U was over; which regrettably did not happen.
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/.....8#cid:47398651
"[13:59:34] <Carenath> And what he had told me was that if I cooperated, destroyed the data copies I had after giving FA a copy of the database and forums (prior to the modifications I had made) that they would not press further on the issue. There was no official C&D issued, there was the threat of criminal proceedings if I refused to play nice."
So while it is technically true that no C&D was issued, I find the official description of this as "rectified peacefully" to be quite dishonest.
Because if it actually does stay the same, the forum's community is going to fight back.
We aren't pleased with being treated like crap.
A deadline was set for a response to come back from the FA team within a week. You did *not* uphold this, and ignored those who wanted a response within a timely fashion.
The least you could have done is say "We are busy with FA United right now, but we will get back to you as soon as it is over." The fact that you didn't and chose to ignore the problem (something FA has been known to do for quite some time with the forums) was the only response we got. You forced Carenath's hand. Don't even try to act ignorant to this.
You also neglected to provide the rest of the information regarding this event, most of which puts you in a bad light. (How not-so-shocking.)
And he's got a point about vBulletin.
About two months ago one of FAF's most valued and respected members passed away. After her passing, her mother started to browsed the forums; reading through her daughter's thousands of posts. In a way, part of her daughter was left on the forums. When the forums last went down she was apparently very upset... but I can't imagine how she must feel right now.
There were also many artists who were commissions via the forums, and a huge array of tutorials and guides on art/literature. A source of income and knowledge for many has now been lost.
Well done. I hope you're all very happy and think was worth it.
That is, all the posts that people who have decided to abandon ship over this don't take with them.
Anyways I hope the new forums will work well enough for me to join in the future, I never saw much need for the old one personally (except for when FA was down of course)
What's left is to restructure and bring the forums back online.
From what I've been reading, it sounds like you have done a great job in this dilemma, so I just wanted to say good job, and keep it up :)
My primary concern lay with the parties directly involved.
As far as that goes, unless either side decides to get confrontational, the ordeal has reached a conclusion that can be deemed as peaceful; in light of other possible outcomes.
At the end of the day after the announcement has been posted and clarifications comments have all been said and done, arguments quickly start to devolve into nonsense.
Public opinion is not something you can win in or change easily, if at all. All you can do is to put forth your best effort at staying impartial, answer the questions and clarify things, and leave people to make up their own minds.
Or the facts that Dragoneer has been quoted as saying he wants to destroy the forums anyway.
Or that Neer talked through Yak instead of addressing it directly.
Or that the people who could expose all this have been banned.
*sad music plays as ship sinks*
And yes, I have said in the past I wanted to shut down the forums, but I'm also on record as saying I wanted to revamp and improve them as well. Those comments didn't get posted as well. We've been debating how to improve the forums for months.
You wanted to wipe everything and start fresh so you could ensure to unjustly ban everyone who speaks out against you. That's your idea of "improvement". It's all you ever did. You didn't want to ever talk unless you could silence and speak over the people who would see through your nonsense and call you out on it. You and Chase. It's why you got rid of Arshes whom you think is a cunt, and several other mods. Because they stood up to your bad decision making.
That's why no one cares about your comments on "revamping" the forums. You were going to destroy the last bastion for reasonable discussion on this site. You get your account NUKED when you go against the grain here and don't you even think about giving me that bullshit about "inciting drama". There's few people in this hugbox main site that think critically and ask real questions and you want to extend that mindset to the forums. It's obvious, Piche.
But whatever. You got what you wanted for years anyway. Big gold star for you, big boy.
I do want to genuinely thank Yak though. I may give him shit too, but this time he looked out for us. So if you see this, Yak, I appreciate your efforts a great deal.
It's pathetic.
Restarting the forums from scratch was indeed one of the possible options that was being discussed. It wasn't the one we went ahead with in the end.
I specifically asked to be allowed to handle the situation with the forums, because I felt I was in the best position to remain neutral through the whole thing.
The only people that have been banned from FA were those that broke our rules on privacy and/or user conduct. You don't have to go farther than this journal to find the confirmation of that: by seeing the posts from our former forum moderator staff.
Don't bother.
Not saying I think it is or isn't true, I just find it kind of odd that so many say this without providing proof. Do you happen to have any? I would like to check it out.
They have a pretty good track record of banning those that speak up under the guise of "inciting drama" because they don't want to be held accountable or questioned and pressured to be as transparent as they claim to be.
It's far from the first or last time that they've done something like that.
But if you don't want to take anyone's word for it, there's really probably nothing that would be substantial evidence in your book beyond seeing them do it with your own two eyes.
I have no way of knowing if you were there or not, and it isn't my argument. In fact I don't really HAVE an argument, I was really just a curious impartial party asking for visual records for me to check out.
I've heard a lot of stories like yours (as I mentioned in my initial comment) so at this point I'm looking for proof, not more personal experiences, sorry about that.
But, I think there actually is like substantial logs/screenshots/etc. Actually, there might be all the original drama with the hacker they tried to hire in Fender's journal here: http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/6265766/ (just ctrl + f scilince and look through his comments).
Not to mention all the drama when they rolled out porn ads (which were quickly removed after massive backlash): http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/6831187/
I see the good and bad on both sides, but honestly, I only understand the tip of the iceberg-so little by little I've been looking into things a bit more to get a realistic perspective of the situation as a whole :)
About two months ago one of FAF's most valued and respected members passed away. After her passing, her mother started to browsed the forums; reading through her daughter's thousands of posts. In a way, part of her daughter was left on the forums. When the forums last went down she was apparently very upset... but I can't imagine how she must feel right now.
There were also many artists who were commissions via the forums, and a huge array of tutorials and guides on art/literature. A source of income and knowledge for many has now been lost.
Well done. I hope you're all very happy and think was worth it.
I'm trying to stay impartial, but telling everyone to go fuck themselves over and over is just.... asking to be banned?
He worked on Project Pheonix way back and dang did he have bad experiences. Not only that but he also wrote fixes for exploits and shit thsi site had a while back... but Neer and Co never implemented em because fuck logic.
He obviously got frustrated and left but eventually started, in a respectful manner and not leaking anything, started showing BS and asking questions, TOO many questions, here and on the forums. At one point he got banned, but if you want evidence of whether he was breaking rules or not, though luck! Because this site's wonderful staff HID ABSOLUTELY EVERY SINGLE COMMENT HE HAS EVER MADE ON THE ENTIRETY OF HIS STAY OF FUR AFFINITY! You know, something completely logical and not suspicious or anger filled at all! Hidding EVERY single comment someone made on the entire history of FA, submissions, journals, and such, being hidden right after he is banned, just wonderful, wonderful transparency there.
I was always wondering why I had to have two different signups for one and then the other.
About two months ago one of FAF's most valued and respected members passed away. After her passing, her mother started to browsed the forums; reading through her daughter's thousands of posts. In a way, part of her daughter was left on the forums. When the forums last went down she was apparently very upset... but I can't imagine how she must feel right now.
There were also many artists who were commissions via the forums, and a huge array of tutorials and guides on art/literature. A source of income and knowledge for many has now been lost.
Well done. I hope you're all very happy and think was worth it.
It's far from being factual though, and the readers should keep that in mind.
Calling out anything else (the big three accusations) of course would be a violation of code's of conduct.
Burned furs type stuff and a bunch of disagreements with Site Administrative decisions as well as refusal to honour a legal agreement dictated by lawyers of the site's owner. Forums separating because of that -- fair enough.
Anything less then what the leakers (to the point where some MAY have broken the law in the process) is lies and slander. Some of it borders on libel too but furries generally dont fight in the courts they use DDOS, hacking, populism, channel wars, and stuff you read in the National enquirer.
Real life legal cases have been involved in the debates (if I remember reading some of it) and transparency hits a brick wall when client-attorney privilige and court ordered protection exists. Especially for a reason. Until the cops show up and start seizing servers (which happened once) I would just let drama go and find somewhere else to deal with, you order everyone with site privileges into an NDA to protect people's legal rights.
Otherwise spend the money and take things to court yourself.
And Neer has IMVU's money (and lawyers) behind him (a legal team finally) :P
a PROJECT PHOENIX if you will. You know, the one that never got off the ground from the days when Neer first started making grand claims to fame and never following through?
Where's this FA 2.0 that was suppsoed to be out years ago?
Especially when you have to re-do database archetecture.
Reality is FA should have died long ago and the Drama is only there because it is still alive.
I call it big-site politics--enough to establish prima facie {IMHO} is establish an enforceable US-BASED NDA. which means banning people who have "privilidged access" to anything from site in an "unauthorized release". Then potentially leading to legal action if things get harmed (such as hacking or threats to Real life staff members). IMHO this includes forum mods
I've had enough experience to understand these things across my life. .
Enforceability is left to how much IMVU wants to spend on lawyers and controlling a subculture which uses vigilantism to deal with its problems (LOL).
He's spouting bull shit, for whatever reason I don't know.
Probably to earn back favor with Dragoneer after trying to communicate with the forums and disclosing information to us.
"Far from being factual" my arse!
The *ACTUAL* furthest thing from being factual is the idea that FA will ever improve and be honest with their userbase.
We have not decided where the forums would be hosted physically yet. At this point the focus is on migrating the data and launching them; moving them elsewhere later would take no more than an hour.
Also not that I don't think it is obvious to anyone on the FA staff but you shouldn't define a "how long moving the forums elsewhere later would take" unless you already know exactly where you would move them to and exactly how you would move them there as depending on where and how can drastically change how long it might take. And that doesn't even take into account other conditions besides those two main ones. I mean for example traveling at highway speeds of 75 mph I can get to a town about 53 miles away in less than an hour on a good day but if it is raining or windy or hell if ti's icy windy and showing I might not be able to make it to that same town on the same route in an hour and a half if I drive at speeds safe for the conditions.
Wait till Weaysl or IB hits the size of FA and see the same thing happen.
Much like how FA is compared to "
chSzsyArt and "the other one that only nerds in their 40's rememberOr like this website owes them something when scandal happens.
You have to protect yourself sometimes, even if it means dumping money on a lawler.
The fact that they have a plan and are saying something about it shows affirmative action. Things are getting done around here for once, learn to appreciate it or we lose it again.
Can't quite gripe about a free service like this especially when they are doing what they need to be doing. Sure they say Imvu has nothing to do with any staff management or anything here, but if that were true there wouldn't be this ever present fire under their ass like they had something to lose. The original owners don't own the site legally anymore and the truth of the matter is that dead weight is dead weight and you cut the fat you don't need when it isn't contributing to progress.
You do know they wouldn't have told us this for years if previous management was all we had. The new management seems to demand more transparency when they have something positive to say in the direction of fixing things.
We got the damn folders, you think there would be less yapping.
Love the icon by the way, it is so true.
Well better get Dragoneer to get his shit together and hire those admins that were banned and fired if you want forums back. :p
.
What *will* happen is that the community will continue to fight back against the bull shit.
(And people who make a living off the community are almost 'forced' to stay because this is where all the fucking customers are. Trust me, I would leave if I could get commissions solely through another site.)
I took it as how I know it to be...
Legally, a business needs to cover their asses, so they make all working with them, paid or not, do things like this to ensure security. The mods of the forums, who worked there for years in some cases didn't like this, felt it unnecessary, intrusive, or didn't want to be part of big business, so they decided not do it, but instead step-aside. (IMVU has their own volunteer staff for the forums sign the same thing, was told this by a few of them while still there.)
And I see that as "They gotta do as what they gotta do."
I didn't see it at all as malicious, just they decided against it because they felt it unnecessary.
I am also aware of how these things go and how people are thinking...
But I saw it stated as this "Things changed, we have to do this, we asked them to do this, they decided they rather not so stepped aside, no ill will, just business."
And stepping aside, to me, means left of freewill/not fired or anything else but peaceful leaving.
So I see all the mods from there still as fine...
FA just tied up with legal things from IMVU...
Maybe its because of the closeness to the issue?
Or maybe cause they want to paint themselves somewhat good light, because knowing this community, moment they start saying something is bad, they just take it to destroy them?
Who knows, but I will say at least you got me thinking nothing bad about that mod staff.
I'm very sorry the wording of the post made you feel maligned - that was the last thing we wanted, and we appreciate the time you put in before we parted ways.
And if people give you a hard time over it, I've got your back.
Furaffinity may be a mess sometimes, but its the mess that I love and call home.
I just know things from past experience, though minor, that help me understand things.
Never claimed to be an expert,
Cuz you wouldn't know.
If I was a mod anywhere or had experience with another business acquiring another and the subsidiaries getting changes from the acquisition and thus staff changes happen...
I have experience and can empathize their feelings.
Empathy: the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.
Its gained from similar experiences.
So because of my experiences and knowing how to take those and think that out, I can assume what is happening.
I know on an individual basis, they can vary, but I know a general idea.
Does it make me an expert? Nope, and never claimed to be.
But I am not wrong in my thought process.
And you have no right to tell me how I can use that experience to figure out things.
It's just a dry, succinct recollection of what took place and what it was resolved into.
There was no malicious intent involved, really.
You are free to clarify your position, just as you did, if you felt the journal was lacking in detail.
For the record I also do not think an NDA should be required for the position of the forum moderator. However, the way things were at the moment required us to comply with certain legal requirements which we tried to do.
It can still be argued that that a moderator can be assigned enough permissions to perform their task without having access to user private data, in which case there would be a requirement for an NDA. Such was not the case at that point.
The whole "data at risk" part is just the legal interpretation of the event.
"The whole "data at risk" part is just the legal interpretation of the event."
Uuuuuh so why did you basically say the data was at risk if it was a legal interpretation, but not state it as such in the journal?
Also, like I mentioned I would've signed an NDA for user data protection if they also didn't request my ID. I just did not feel comfortable handing that out for a volunteer position. :c
I really wish this didn't go the way it did...
As of now, it's a hot mess all around.
I call it "pile of lies"
. You didn't do anything during the chaos that was happening when no mods were there, because you were too busy dealing with the other mods fiasco for a few days, which is the catalyst for Carenath frustration and disabling temporarily registering and removing your admin privileges as he was cleaning the mess you just didn't care to help. Why can't you guys mention that part? Is it because it makes Carenath look less bad? Them wanting help and needing it on the forums and you just, not doing your job as also moderators of that area? Oh yeah also You forgot to talk about how you were given time to reply properly, you didn't, Carenath got more frustrated and moved the forums again.
Also the bloody NDA again?! The SAME NDA that was given to the previous mods and that was given not in it's entirety to sign up to the old mods and not only that, but ALSO was already legally null due to it being badly written? Oh man those mods sure are evil now ain't they? Not wanting to sign up that NDA that is already null and is written entirely broad and not really to the point about you know, protecting user information, the thing you claim here? Why not make it not extremely vague and be way more concise about user information and similar data if that's your main concern?
I'm not going to post any bloody leaks myself, for obvious reasons. You just made a reply about the forums issue just now cos now you can have a narrative of the HEROIC FA STUFF WARDING THE EVIL ROGUE MODS THAT TRY TO STILL ALL THE INFO! You know, the forum being completely separate on data and all to FA, and that forum accounts are entirely different to FA accounts?
Oh yeah LET'S NOT FORGET YOU ACTUALLY AGREEDED TO LETTING THE FORUMS GO AND MAKE NEW ONES YOURSELVES, SO YOU KNOW, YOU GAVE THEM THE RIGHTS TO KEEP THE FORUMS AS A SEPARATE ENTITY, WHY THERE'S NO MENTION OF THAT?! That's when the forums where changed to Pheonix. Oh yeah, and the cease and desists did fucking happen, it was IMVU who did it not you, why not mention that part either?
tl;dr
The NDA was null and given incomplete to the old mods, they were not helping the forum during the crisis, Carenath got fed up and took some actions to clean the mess while removing FA's staff from admin positions in frustration, the staff wanting to put mods without telling who they were, Carenath being fed up didn't give the forums back till more negotiation; they come to the agreement of it being it's own entity; IMVU issues a cease and decist saying they own the forums and force it to go down; you make a shitty narrative to make the forums THE EVIL BASTARDS while you are the noble heroes.
The announcement is a dry recollection of key events devoid of any specifics and personal interpretations for both parties involved.
The goal or this is not to place blame or fame on anyone, but simply to relay what took place and what it was resolved into.
If people are looking for specifics they can look at additional sources of information, such as the comments and administrative replies to them here.
I have asked to be allowed to resolve the forums situation myself. The discussions with the forum staff began before FA:U and had to take a pause because most of the staff were involved in it's operation while myself was involved with finalizing the Gallery Folders feature.
No announcements were posted because the negotiations were still on-going and a resolution hasn't yet been reached.
Nobody is blaming the forum moderation team for declining to sign the NDA. We respect their decision to do so, and there is no ill will from us for it.
Should the situation have been any different, perhaps we could have worked out a solution where NDAs were not a requirement.
The first part of your post criticizes us for not posting any announcements on the forum situation, and now you are criticizing us for doing so. There are no heroics or legendary feats I'm afraid; but you should stick to one of your opinions and not change it halfway through the post.
There was neither an official, nor an unofficial agreement to allow a copy of the forum to be ran at any point. It was just one of the options on the table during the negotiations and the one of the possible resolutions.
That said, FA does not have any reservations for allowing a fresh copy of the forums to be started that doesn't build upon FAF user and post data. Having any would have been clearly absurd since like, it's none of our business what forums people decide to run themselves.
No legal action took place during any of this. We were able to resolve this without having to resort to any; however, it was an option we were willing to pursue if no other options proved effective.
The goal or this is not to place blame or fame on anyone, but simply to relay what took place and what it was resolved into."
Let's not kid ourselves, yes, there are facts stated there, however, there is a lot of omission and the way and order in which some of the wording and statements are put it's obvious that this journal is meant to undermine the forum's staff and decisions in contrast to FA without stating it directly.
I can talk about historical figures and make em look like huge assholes or amazing heroes just by stating and omitting facts. Like "Churchill not only bombed civilian cities, he also wanted to start a new war right after WW2 ended", or "Churchill's bright decisions during WW2 and determination managed to pull the UK back on it's feet and defeat the AXIS"; Both statements only put facts, however, one paints him clearly as a evil bastard while the other as a fantastic human being, not giving the full picture just in the right way.
Same deal here, putting emphasis on them not wanting to sign the NDA over many of the other reasons, stating over many other things and with a lot of emphasis that them keeping the forums and not signing the NDA would give em tons of user DATA (which they already had), and not other of the actions they took or reasons they stated.
"I have asked to be allowed to resolve the forums situation myself. The discussions with the forum staff began before FA:U and had to take a pause because most of the staff were involved in it's operation while myself was involved with finalizing the Gallery Folders feature."
I forgot amongst other things that, sorry for not mentioning it. I know you did, and tbh I think you are probably from the last remaining staff in FA that actually cares enough and is seriously concerned about the community, you actively take action and take your time to reply to users in more detail, even more so to those who disagree or are just fed up.
The first part of your post criticizes us for not posting any announcements on the forum situation, and now you are criticizing us for doing so. There are no heroics or legendary feats I'm afraid; but you should stick to one of your opinions and not change it halfway through the post.
...what? No, not in the slightest? I'm complaining about how it took SO long to make a statement about FA's forums having problems for so long, all the mess taht was going on, not for not stating a resolution. If the staff had made a statement like "The forums had this happen and we are working on dialogue with Carenath for a resolution" it would have been enough, but not only that didn't happen, after all this time the only official statement we got is this, and as I stated, it's heavily biased and meant to put the forum staff in a bad light.
No legal action took place during any of this. We were able to resolve this without having to resort to any; however, it was an option we were willing to pursue if no other options proved effective.
I didn't say it was you, it was IMVU, and if it wasn't then... why did the forums go down with the message it did? Why would the forum staff decide to take down the entire forums out of the blue after getting what was widely considered a victory, because if it was for trying to make IMVU or FA look mean or stupid, that's the most idiotic way anyone could do it, specially since everyone in the forums was already discussing such things so... why did it go down the way it did?
Thank you for taking your time to reply to me.
About two months ago one of FAF's most valued and respected members passed away. After her passing, her mother started to browsed the forums; reading through her daughter's thousands of posts. In a way, part of her daughter was left on the forums. When the forums last went down she was apparently very upset... but I can't imagine how she must feel right now.
There were also many artists who were commissions via the forums, and a huge array of tutorials and guides on art/literature. A source of income and knowledge for many has now been lost.
Well done. I hope you're all very happy and think was worth it.
https://twitter.com/fatransparency
Yeah no leaks there just a reply, so it shouldn't be a problem.
And the future...
Is...
GAY.
Hope everyone has a poncho or umbrella.
In the eyes on the law FA can not allow any data that was under its care to fall to a third party, even if most of said third party consists of the people who own the most of the above mentioned data.
As long as at least a single person's data in the entire dataset remains effectively "handed over to a third party", we are legally liable for the loss.
It is unfair to claim that FA is operating purely under selfish reasons and does not acknowledge nor wish what's best for the community.
There are simply restrictions in place which we have to work with and within.
He became a "third party" the moment the problems began.
GAY
GAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYGAGAGAYGAY
FENDERS GAY
I'M GAY
YOU'RE GAY
I've signed NDAs before as an alpha and beta tester for games before and I can see the need for it. However, it's just that comfort level of signing one and having to give up sensitive info.
I've signed a lot of them and none of them has asked for any more information than a name, an email, and made you scroll through a wall-o-text telling you what the NDA says.
About two months ago one of FAF's most valued and respected members passed away. After her passing, her mother started to browsed the forums; reading through her daughter's thousands of posts. In a way, part of her daughter was left on the forums. When the forums last went down she was apparently very upset... but I can't imagine how she must feel right now.
There were also many artists who were commissions via the forums, and a huge array of tutorials and guides on art/literature. A source of income and knowledge for many has now been lost.
Well done. I hope you're all very happy and think was worth it.
Prehaps not the sweetest message, but it didn't contain any untruths. Not that it was up for long anyway. XD
I'm surprised it was up for that long to be honest!
But he never did take the data! That whole argument from them is a load of nonsense...
And its tough to say, we were in talks for a bit on how to solve this before carenath did the split. I was really hoping we'd all come to a mutual agreement there, but it never happened :c
Also, I'm honored because someone with mod status like you used to have talked to me. I mean, you're not a mod now, but you were and that's like saying you were in the military to me. I'd salute whether you were enlisted or not. The thanks are genuine.
It was really rough at times but I really enjoyed working with the mod team and the community. FAF was what reignited my interest in the fandom after being involved with a really weird group that turned me off of it, and I wanted to help as best I could. I wish things didn't turn out like this :c
On the other hand, since the forum admins are all volunteers, I can easily understand them not wanting to provide their legal IDs. After all, who wants the risk of being legally responsible for something that they aren't even being paid for.
Neither side is wrong, but it's really hard to expect and enforce data security when everyone involved is only a volunteer. I wouldn't want to supply my legal ID to any website, unless it was for my banking and other financial stuff that required it. The risk of identity theft is real, and is greatly increased if a site has a copy of my legal ID, the personal info that it contains. I accept the risk to my personal data when I'm using sites like eBay, PayPal, my bank, and those for the utility companies I do business with. I'll never provide my info to social, entertainment, art or forum sites though.
What I don't understand is why they feel a need for an NDA on a social forum site, where 95 percent of the users aren't even using a real name, in a community where people are savvy enough to not give out too much personal info to begin with. Leaked info from a furry forum site is on a completely different level than leaked info from a financial site.
Especially one with the 'noteriety' of furries, AND the fact that statistically you are the biggest target.
I think this is where the community acquisition died because no one could find a way to keep the place free of charge without meeting legal requirements that don't give furies or any porn site any breaks with due process.
NDA with ID or with an expensive team of dedicated lawyers (game makers and DA, etc) is the only way to handle that issue.
I simply don't consider any social sites important enough to hand over that sort of info. If one requires it, then I guess I'd have to find other sites to use. That's what I did with Facebook. They pulled their legal ID requirement thing on me. So, instead of switching to my real name and sending them an ID, to continue to use the site, I left. The cost/risk of sending in a real legal ID is simply too high over something such as a social, entertainment, fun, furry, or hobby site. This is especially true when there are so many alternatives that don't require that. I don't know of many social forum sites that require their admins to sign NDAs. If they do, then they'd also need to require IDs to make them binding.
The biggest targets on the net are not furry sites. They are things like banks, eBay, credit cards, and any sites where someone could potentially steal info to gain money or products, usually from multiple users at once. Successfully hack into Bank of America, and not get caught, and you become very rich. Successfully hack into the FA forums, and you end up with little more than wasted time and lots of drama. Which would you target if you were a capable hacker? Furry is hardly a big target, when most of the world hardly even knows what it is.
Several social sites do this without awareness in fact, not just facebook.
Its not a cut and dry thing, but social sites thanks to ongoing legal developments (not related to FA) have and can exercise that option if necessary. It is becoming more and more necessary now more then ever in fact. That debate is too wide for this context of course.
FA isn't some backwater site anymore. As even with the hatred there is enough activity on this site fo FA to be as big of a target when it comes to "furry" as facebook is for the rest of humanity.
I can see the site requiring a need enhanced accountability for staff and others beyond just an email address, just by the amount of activity it sees a day.
When I search my real name on the web, I can hardly find anything to show that I even exist. I even had it removed form sites like Intelius, where anyone could pay $15 to do a background check on anyone. If any site requires my real name and ID, I simply don't use it - unless it's required to access my money, pay bills, or to have things mailed to me due to an online purchase. That means no recreational forum site will ever see my real name. If their terms of service requires it, I find a different forum to use. So far, I've never had anything but Facebook actually shut me out over it.
I know FA may be legally required to do NDAs for their admins. I can't fault them for that. They do what they need to do. But, I also can understand people refusing to sign. If they set it up properly, they can give people basic admin access without giving them access to personal private data. Obviously full admin access would give them access to private data. Require NDAs for full admins, but not for basic housekeeping admins. That keeps private data safe, without all admins needing NDAs. Of course, the forum software would need to support that, and I don't know if it does (or did).
But I can see both points on it. I wouldn't wanna be in that position as to what to do.
Ask nrr in private or somone else for the link :P
The "Phoenix Forums" are still around under the same name and domain, but they are being restarted with a fresh installation.
Which is something FA has no business in.
Carenath hosted the forums. He could have taken the user data at any time if he wanted to and he never did.
FAF fell into anarchy and finally split away from you simply because they wanted to improve it to make it a better community. THAT is what Phoenix was!
It is kinda sad that Phoenix got shut down with no warning it seems. Can't lie... I would have not have minded Phoenix being completely separated. Too bad its gone and if they started again they would not have the FA sized numbers from the start.
https://phoenix.corvidae.org/
On the plus side the new forum is more mobile friendly.
There was a choice, and that choice was taken. The moderation team decided they did not want to sign NDAs and has resigned from their positions.
We respect their decisions and there is no ill will towards any of them for doing it.
The sub-liscence granted to the forum was un-written. And unwritten contracts do indeed happen, and ARE enforceable. The contract is then written in lieu to protect both parties.
They chose to separate rather then fall in line with corporate governance. The public forum poll shows that as did the head admin.
Everything else is only a matter of opinions.
If you wish to continue to moderate, or staff on the "fur affinity forums" or in any capacity with "Fur Affinity" at all. Then turn over your ID and read the NDA.
Otherwise please step down.
The whole forum then finally left unable to maintain its associations with Fur Affinity.
Well, you wouldn't choose to do _____ thing normally, but with a gun to your head you sure as shit will.
"Choice" my hiney.
It's not a "choice" and it's most definitely forced.
The main problem I see here is that these mods already had the position to do whatever they wanted with the user data, they already had access to as mods, yet lucky for Dragoneer they were not assholes that sold this data to the highest bidder.
The main issue now is that Neer already put your data at risk to start with before the forums tried to split, or did you not actually catch that part? remember these mods had access to your data and only recently were asked to sign an NDA that from what I am hearing is very broad in it's wording.
So this whole user data at risk shit I am hearing I found to be highly lulz worthy, that data did not actually change hands at any point.
As a matter of fact this supposed care about user data is in fact also laughable, where is this care when it comes to the main site and the holes that we all know the site is full of?
I'm upset that it was worded in a sense that they didn't want to sign a piece of paper, when in fact, you were asking them to fork over sensitive personal info.
Let me ask you: Would you fork over a government ID of yourself to a site like FurAffinity, one that hired a well known hacker (Zidonuke) who is notorious for dishing out personal information and has been hacked and breeched countless numbers of times already? Mind you, on that ID, it gives a photo of you, an address of where you reside, your IRL name, birthdate and license number?
It's a no brainer why the forum staff quit, and I feel like it's unfair how this journal is painting them as people that just threw a fit over a piece of paper.
FA must must address the reasons why the forum users asked to spit from FA in the first place. It was a rebellion or hostile takeover. The community wanted it overwhelmingly. I would think the FA staff would listen to why and fix the problems. Thats just my 2 cents though.
Giving user data out to a third party would violate our Terms of Service, and using an existing copy of the forums did just that.
I'm not throwing Carenath under the bus. He did that himself when he decided to take our data, without permission, and host an unauthorized copy of the data without consent. That was a choice he made, and one we were able to resolve.
If the community decided to move on they are free to do so, but as the head of FA, it's my job and responsibility to protect user data -- be it from current, former, suspended and even banned users. And if somebody were to give out that data on his side it would be on my ass, and I'm not having that liability held over me.
No rational person would want that.
That doesn't mean he owned the data. Just the forum software.
Also: hurray for FA comments breaking, making this discussion a bit more confusing than it needs to be.
Got 'eem.
Hurray for you experiencing something that you claimed was fixed months ago!
The more and more this goes on, the more and more I'm convinced that an audit didn't take place after the IMVU acquisition. No one thought to draft up contracts to cover the gaps for the ancillary little details like how the FAF was hosted, let alone to take inventory of said details.
These things tend to happen before acquisitions, not after them. This whole thing reeks of bush league knee-jerk reaction.
Now, that said, contract law in the US is based on the principles of record and acknowledgement, and unless you (and the burden of proof is on you here, sir) can provide record that Carenath acknowledged that his relationship with FA, in providing hosting for the FAF, implied no ownership of the data contained therein, your claim to that data is going to be very hard to substantiate.
The license for vBulletin had Carenath's name on it, and the relationship with the VPS host is with Carenath. The only things that work against the group of folks calling themselves Phoenix are the long-standing use of the forums.f.n DNS name (creating an expectation by a reasonable layperson that the message board is indeed run by FA), the vague claim to copyright in the footer (to what exactly was the copyright relevant?), and the logo in the header.
See, while I say bush league, I urge you to keep in mind also that this isn't mere assumption on my part over nine months after the fact; at this point, I'm drawing a conclusion just from the behavior of everyone involved.
Based off of my legal understanding, the database became jointly owned the minute FA issued Carenth the domain name and allowed it to become part of the mainsite in an official matter (which happened). Anything associated with mainsite would become property of the parent at that point, and not just the forum owner itself. Especially with any content created during the "marrage" of the two separate entities (Carenth's licence and FA properties).
Though with no legal documentation, it would be up to civil courts to determine who had what rights to do with the contents beyond that. It could go either way depending on the stance taken by mainsite ownership and what the legal professionals would say. (all about branding benefit and damage to the brand for example as form of copyright).
IMVU probably did not see this coming as they thought the governance would not destabilize the understanding. It would likely be non-sequetor until the forum wanted to separate with whatever Carenth owned (legally). Then like discussed on the forum it would have gone to corporate enforcement (with "notice of enforceability" which is a low-level C+D formatted letter).
IMVU would have likely ordered the forum deleted and it would have gone to court, had Yak not stepped in but TBH I dont think EITHER party would have seen this coming at all.
There's a legal instrument called an implied-in-law contract that will likely serve as the basis for litigious argument here, at least absent record of a verbal contract.
Vbulliten is also a sub-license process granting the user the ability to use the Vbulliten program to host user-generated data (UDG) for its intended purpose. It releases user-content to whomever has original content rights as a database file.
Those rights are then dependant on content-specific common law. It does not grant cart blanche ownership of all contents.
Aka Its left to the forum owner to establish their own control leaving Vbulliten as a non-party to the dispute.
You may have rights to the database, but those are not granted to you by Vbulliten, but by common law, Which can include the Copyright and Trademark act as to how you treat the data created while serving as FA's official forum.
There're a couple of new facts coming across that are muddling this up a bit too. yak (whose role respective to IMVU is unclear) discusses elsewhere here that Carenath was actually technical staff while this was going on, which threatens to make moot some arguments involving contract law. Furthermore, Dragoneer is denying ever having made an agreement to allow the FAF to split amicably, which threatens to paint Carenath's actions as being in bad faith.
Right now, this is making me scratch my head a bit.
I brought the VB arguement up because I read that some are Using the VB licence to bolster the claim that FA was potentially abusing its legal power on the forums you have dedicated resources to (from the last public post I read) and to claifiy the "contract" law issue...
IMVU from what I understand is taking a hands-off approach with the site, and allowing the site to run BAU like a watchful (dysfunctional?) father so it may not take any stance at all (sans enforcement offsite maybe). This is probably better IMHO.
The tech staff thing is hard to know because Carenth herself has posted disparaging remarks about the separation that is not inline with FA's PR post. From what I remember because she has server root and physical ownership (and administers the contents for the forum accordingly) it is an automatic position of having close ties with Mainsite Operations.
If that is the case it is probably a powerless position outside of her forum/server. Hence my argument about FA almost making a "sub-liscence" of the necessary trademark data to unify the elements (website and forum) in implied contracts. If there is a sub-liscence then FA has the right to screen the database to enshure its rights are protected and make a mutually acceptable claim (PUBLICLY!) about the matter.
The legality as to who owns what because of this, IMHO doesn't really effect it unless both sides wish to have it arbitrated. It could either go on roles, level of FA related content (protected by its copyrights and trademarks), resources distributed (from buisness law), or if there are presences of confidential communications (IM, emails, texts, etc) between neer and Carenth /owners about "merging the forum into mainsite".
The latter of these would be equal to a sub-liscence IMHO, but I guess its up to the two owners to sort the data out. Hopefully without claiming public harm about it because that is weakening the agreement enough for some to potentially take legal action.
About two months ago one of FAF's most valued and respected members passed away. After her passing, her mother started to browsed the forums; reading through her daughter's thousands of posts. In a way, part of her daughter was left on the forums. When the forums last went down she was apparently very upset... but I can't imagine how she must feel right now.
There were also many artists who were commissions via the forums, and a huge array of tutorials and guides on art/literature. A source of income and knowledge for many has now been lost.
Well done. I hope you're all very happy and think was worth it.
This was never an issue for you. But now that the community decided to split and take the database with it you suddenly care about user data? To me that makes no sense.
The split could have done better. I get that. But now we have just two sides blaming each other, like in a really awful breakup :T
All it does is change who negotiates the split Legality or situations don't change because Neer continued as he was despite being acquired by IMVU which means the forum had no affair with IMVU. wether IMVU owned the site or not the "NDA issue" would have been the same irreguardless of whomever sits beside you..
Technically data is owned by whomever has physical possession of it, in this case being hosted in FA's datacentre and architecture has the higher priority, though the server owner still has acquisition rights (sans IP from the host - to be negotiated).
Ownership of data, posts, texts not associated with the name is a joint ownership in this case which as no definite ideal. The community wanted to part ways with its half, FA wanted its own. The data was split and copied to both parties to do as they wished with it.
Third parties (including mods on either forum) then have to deal with both parties if they feel privacy violations.
About two months ago one of FAF's most valued and respected members passed away. After her passing, her mother started to browsed the forums; reading through her daughter's thousands of posts. In a way, part of her daughter was left on the forums. When the forums last went down she was apparently very upset... but I can't imagine how she must feel right now.
There were also many artists who were commissions via the forums, and a huge array of tutorials and guides on art/literature. A source of income and knowledge for many has now been lost.
Well done. I hope you're all very happy and think was worth it.
People are more than welcome to start their own community or leave.
As far as the forums, yes, we *do* own the forums. The forums were a part of the assets transferred over to IMVU. At no point did we ever say "You can't split off and create your own community." Users were more than welcome to do so. All we stated is you can't hijack a copy of our database to use on your own, as that would transfer all the user accounts (email, IP and other info) to a third party where we'd have no control, nor could guarantee the data would be kept private.
It's in the boards TOS
Check out @6tailedkitsune's Tweet: https://twitter.com/6tailedkitsune/.....684786688?s=01
Anyways, I would focus on what caused the majority (80% or higher) of regular FAF users to vote to split from the mainsite. If a community is to foster then perhaps the reasons as to why this all started should be looked into?
Its also worth noting that the users made it pretty clear on the forums they trusted Carenath having private data over FA. Being that he was and still is completely transparent about the whole situation.
Again, this is just my opinion and everyone has one too.
That makes no sense whatsoever, and goes against the entire concept of software as a whole.
So it doesn't apply here why?
That's now how databases *nor* data work whatsoever.
Uhh... if Carenath owned license and the servers that means he owns the data on the forums, not FA. He was allowing you to use HIS service for free... not the other way around.
About two months ago one of FAF's most valued and respected members passed away. After her passing, her mother started to browsed the forums; reading through her daughter's thousands of posts. In a way, part of her daughter was left on the forums. When the forums last went down she was apparently very upset... but I can't imagine how she must feel right now.
There were also many artists who were commissions via the forums, and a huge array of tutorials and guides on art/literature. A source of income and knowledge for many has now been lost.
Well done. I hope you're all very happy and think was worth it.
We never got any replies.
There never was communication.
We were ignored.
The blame can be passed around as much as FA wants, but it won't change the facts.
If we ignore all this BS about licenses and user data it is pretty safe to say that it was their forum, not FA's. Nothing was ever done there to improve the community. No one cared about FAF. It wasn't even a support forum anymore! The mods told us they would talk to you if we had forum or FA related issues but nothing ever happened.
And now after the staff leak, the disaster with the sudden enforement of NDAs and the split from FA you guys suddenly care about the user data and make it sound like Caranath might have done it with malicious intent even though he was hosting the forum for you on his own hardware and with his own forum license. That is not fair.
You did nothing to help alleviate the issue. Yak was the only one willing to discuss and disclose anything with the forum's community, and he didn't get very far because you didn't give many options.
But overall, the main point you are missing is that 78% of the people are tired of being treated like shit. You completely ignore that fact, even now. All you want is total control, which is the very thing that is going to make you lose control *and* favor.
Watch how the results stay the exact same.
After that, watch how nothing is done about until the problem gets way too big, just like every other situation.
Two is there is a lot more support for Neer on the main site as opposed to a site that he did not frequent and had a larger bad rep with, as well as many people whom don't actually understand the issues or don't care about the issues, along with a more connected community on the forums as opposed to the main site, it was vastly easier to communicate with random others when everyone saw the same posts, on the main site, you don't get that level of connectivity.
Three, there is also issues with Neer being honest, this could lead to him rigging the vote should he so be inclined to do, more so if the vote turns disastrous for him.
Four, it is often the case then when you have more people agree on one stance or such that the peer pressure is evident, some people will vote with the popular choice if such is shown to be popular (some people just want to fit in), to remove the numbers leads to problems as well addressed in the point three above, but to show the popularity of the vote would lead to the vote being slightly contaminated because one option is more popular then another option, it would have to be a blind vote, again that leads to an issue in point three.
So yes the vote would be vastly different, (largely due to the vastly different audience) should point three not even be an issue or even point four it would be easy to see the results, but would also skew the results a bit, but I don't actually think it would skew them too much and since there is the fact that Neer has and does lie would be necessary for an actual vote to be 100% honest in its results.
but honestly I feel like I can speak for all forum users when I say it feels safer with Carenath than with Cuckoneer and IMVU
so go shit in a hat
And an opinion poll (one that wasn't even partaken in by everybody,no less) does not constitute express, explicit consent to duplication of private user data by a third party.
Most of the people that appear to feel strongly about any topic and using harsh language are just doing the whole rage and disgust thing for their amusement.
Swearing at the people in the internet is fun, especially when they know they can't fight back :)
If you break the rules but side with FA, you'll be fine.
If you break the rules and call FA out on their bull shit, you're in danger of being punished.
That's how it is. That's how it has always been.
And it's bull shit.
I realize you will draw whatever conclusion you wish based on what information you can see, and I cannot stop you from doing so. But we do not take administrative action for opinions alone, and I would not continue to work for FA if we did.
(I'm not personally affiliated with that user, but it's one-sided and shows clear favoritism from admins.)
In cases when a user is suspended "out of the blue", it's a safe bet there's more going on than what it looks like on the surface.
But, yanno, if you have reasonable suggestions for what could be done to better help the community, you're welcome to make them. I can't promise every suggestion made will be implemented (and honestly any developer/webmaster/staff member on ANY site that makes such a promise is building castles in the sky), but we do consider site suggestions from users.
Nicely done FA. Surely no one will notice.
Oh wait...
Do we really need the forums? What function do they serve? Can those functions be met by other means. You talk about using them to give updates when FA goes down, but couldn't you just use the official Twitter and an off-site blog? You don't really need a forum to do that, though if it's there, you may as well use it. But if it comes down to it, it doesn't seem like a good reason to keep them.
Now, helping people find new artists? That's a good function for a forum. You can post a thread with your request, and people will link you to what you're looking for, or at least get you started in the right direction. Even so, there may be other forums already dedicated to that, and that's just the one reason for keeping them! If you don't have any others, it's hard to make an argument that this was the right move. And you can't stop the people who left from starting their own forums, nor prevent them from advertising said forums (even if you ban it on the site itself, word-of-mouth is very effective, especially when it comes to enticing people "out from under Dragoneer's thumb" as it were). What else does it offer that the main site does not? And can we be sure there aren't better alternatives? It's not like we really need a dedicated RP forum, do we? Heck, maybe the only other thing it's useful for is posting stories and getting feedback on them. Though that in itself is not a fix for FA's current problem with displaying different file types for stories.
Yes, that last bit is a bit personal and I'm biased. I don't care. SoFurry has a much better in-browser reader, even if the site is a little quirky to use in other ways. Even DeviantArt will let you publish just about any file type (though for some insane reason, they apparently required a thumbnail image for anything more complicated than ".TXT"), though they're not really designed to cater to writers anyway.
Eh. Guess it doesn't matter. Either way, I don't really care about the forums. And time will tell if I'll ever submit anything here again. FA just doesn't seem vital to getting my writing career going. And with all the drama attached to it? It might do a bit better if I cut all ties completely.
Not my place to tell you how to do your job; I'm not a site admin or coder. I hope I never have to be. Still, it would be nice if this place was run a bit better. Just my two cents, for what it's worth.
We can't stop people from creating another forum, no, and we have no interest in doing so. If they want to build up their own separate community, best of luck to them in that.
No user, however, is obligated to use the forums if they don't feel they would personally benefit from doing so. That's not changing.
You'll forgive me if I'm a little biased against the administration. Granted, I don't really know what all is going on, and much of what I hear is based on the opinions of others with whatever evidence they happen to provide. That said, when people whom I find to be intelligent and reasonable start raising complaints about the site and how it's run, I tend to listen. I don't wish anyone on the administration harm or misfortune. I would just like to see a little improvement, and I'm happy to see there's been some positive changes. Folders, at least, are a good first step. I know things are not going to improve overnight, yet I do hope they continue this trend, as rocky and unpredictable as it may be. Once it's been a year under IMVU's ownership, we'll know how good/bad things really are. You have that much time to really screw things up and chase me away. =P After that, I make no promises.
Please keep improving. We need good, decent, hard-working people running the site. To what standard, I can't say. Not my expertise. But momentum only lasts so long. We'll see if you can keep the site moving forward. So long as it does, everything should turn out fine.
But I understand your reluctance. It can suck you in, and having it on a smart phone is worse! Even if you just bookmarked the FA Twitter feed, I've no idea how often they update.
If it meets the needs of others, that's fine. I'm just not sure I have much use for it myself.
Having an admin-only feature that automatically highlights recent posts help us find the new ones faster.
(for those wondering, each comment block in html has a timestamp attribute. feel free to out your javascript knowledge to use with that too if you want)
FA shares power like Majin Buu shares pudding.
Well, basically. We're only human and can't guarantee we won't miss any comments buried deep in some reply chain. We aim to read every comment.
BUTTS. :D
I'd like to think I knew a BOOBIE when I saw one!!
(It's also nice to hear about a proper reason of why there were legal issues with the forum splitting from FA. Hearing only the others side of the story causes the whole thing to sound rather vile)
To be fair, I don't think the lack of moderation was the main problem. It's a lot like with crime: The reason sane people don't just go ahead and kill each other isn't that they fear going to jail, but because they know it's a bad thing to do. On the FA forums, trolling was accepted as the norm... and as long as that's how everyone there is used to behaving, change would probably be hard to bring. If anyone will somehow manage to, I sincerely congratulate them for the performance.
There was a lot of trolling on the forums, but most of it was harmless. The loudest minority is what gets the most attention though. I've always wondered if they were kept around because whenever something would happen to FA, they'd naturally detail the thread and cause the discussion to die.
pls go
Wither or not you have a pony icon doesn't mean you deserve bad treatment. uvu
Well...the forums are down so I can't even check for myself. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
But still-- that person was being an ass for shitting on her just cause of her icon. :V I just wanted to figuratively pet her on the head.
Oh welp. He's banned now, looks like.
There are furry conventions which require NDAs just to staff and help out. Why? Because they, too, respect user and attendee privacy.
Oh, and are we just gonna ignore the fact that you have an infamous hacker who's known to be irresponsible with people's data as part of your team?
And you want people to put their government ID's on such an unstable platform why?
Just an FYI.
I mean, ffs people, cant we just enjoy the artwork that is posted here and call it a day???? WHY must people start all this hate and drama BS. We get enough of this from the US government.... >.<
never had an account on there, but lurked it.
if you intend to restore all previous user data and the like from the old site, wouldn't that backfire? you'd probably have to respond to tons of user requests of (former) users who wanted their accounts and posts removed.
sounds like a mess to me.
P.S: Don't you guys have a change-log of site updates?
we hate you
you don't give a shit about us
mutually beneficial separation
You will never get a true and decent answer out of this staff here it seems... you piss and shit on the community like always.
If you're trying to go the corporate route, you might want to take some pages out of their book. Just saying.
I wouldn't wanna volunteer for that but it is what it is...
Poor site governance or otherwise the mods and Admins are the ones left to liaison directly with legal parties until absolutely necessary. That leaves Neer, Chase, others to handle the messy buisness of enforcing their rights. Part of that level of NDA would be under client-attourney privilege with FA's third party attorney (IMVU's legal department and agreements with neer).
Plus DA will go after (and sue if need) anyone who discloses the site's internal matters (aka #DAdmin and private mod rooms). Through the use of their legal resources that FA does not have.
DA is more corrupt IMHO then FA is but you do not see any of the level of online vigilantism or "public leaking" on those matters.
That's the *main* reason behind all this.
If I remember the idea of an NDA has been floated around since 2007. only when FA became corporately owned/governed did it become an enforcement issue.
For sites like FA this IS a work in progress as actions determine. (such as 500 law enforcement requests a month sometimes).
NDAs are like copyrights though, it is up to the parties to legally enforce it, (which means taking people to court over their "note leaks", "hacking", or other vigilantism). There is no automatic enforcement as it is a civil matter unless otherwise stated. Beyond that details are usually never public for due process reasons.
FA just didn't have the money to sue everyone who breached those agreements until IMVU changed the stance.
Everyone else would have burned the site down over that stuff years ago and I think that is a part of what happened with many of the "note leaks" and other sabotage tried to do.
Furries have a persecution issue when it comes to the law I guess...
The Debates about forcing everyone (under his code) to re-register and post their pictures to a brand new website from the ground up and losing their prior works to deletion?
And the first bout of programmer hell just before the 3 month summer death of 2012?
That IMHO was the day FA died and its database finally cracked revealing these problems...
Also the "N+1 bug" snafoo?
The bugs probably are not fixed, not all of them at least.
I lost track of the site beyond putting out fires and filling between the lines of the leaks which have really led to nothing but 'iffy' PR and lots of drama.
Anything else is just non-credible journal drama.
If anything I'm just contributing noise like everyone else.
If there is merit then that data rests in the hands of the Ontario Court of Justice from June of 2014, and/or my lawyers. You can verify it for your own P3 protection or you can assume what ever you want. My screen name may be public in the file but it is hard to know.
I'm not helping more then likely because I am weakening the opposing argument. Otherwise I cant see how my posts have more merit then anyone else's. If my arguments are confusing and have no value then why are you calling me out and not just dismissing and blocking me?
I don't think anyone is "helping out" unless that means attacking the admins again but to each his own. Aka support me or your wrong, but it happens.
For example October is fishing season for law enforcement, and I suspect Shenanigans at RF (again). But again it may just be bits of data that are irrelevant right now.
if you guys even decide to put up forums again.. for the love of god, actually ban people who do things wrong, like, yanno, trolls and shitposters. and not the people actually wanting open and honest discussion, especially when they have evidence to back themselves up. and do not hire corrupt mods, please, it's bad enough on-site to have shady people but try to do better with the forums at least.
Then your site blows up, or you clamp down and become "corrupt".
The forum community as it was evolved outside of this bubble and has always had differing ideals of operations. IMHO it would have never really been accepting of FA main-site controlling its actions outright.
I love the "final marriage breakdown" comment on the forums about long-standing issues but because of physical separation, The forums could be downright toxic at times to keeping the site running vs watching it burn.
No one has ever tried to take their "complaints" to a proper medium. As such the site will only treat it as the above and remove the offensive content as directed by law.
The only people ever banned have been individuals who have leaked confidential data, hosted confidential data, participated in hacking or malicious site activity, Sockpuppeted or promoted such activity, or made baseless legal accusations /threats without using the legal system.
Those individuals know what they did and anyone who claims martyrdom has no position in my eyes.
An official forum has to take the same stance for its parent website. Otherwise it weakens your brand. Website and forum require the same stance and position, as well as enforcement to operate.
That means removing people who will post information that does not agree with website policies, or encourage things that are legally damaging to the website.
It also means banning poeple off the forum if they break the same rules as if they were the website.
Only when legal enforcement was made on this did the forum decide to leave and continue with what it did for the past 5 or 6 years upon every site decision.
I really don't think you have any idea what you're talking about, but you try to use a bunch of fancy words to dress up what you say to make yourself seem more intellectual than you actually are. You clearly have a persecution complex and think everyone who disagrees is out to destroy FA, when that isn't the case (and you keep abusing the word "martyr", stop that).
Your defense of the admin team is noted, but unnecessary. They are the ones that need to rebuild trust with the userbase. The users don't need to blindly trust the admins just because they are in a position of power.
and for the love of fuck, anyone who thinks someone who actually wants to help solve the problem would really alter a screen shot when the original post is still out there to fact check with, you are dumb..
If you really think that then you have never been to court.
Anything else relies back on about 12-15 leaks being posted at a few satire sites that detail nothing but arguing, calling out admin for lack of response (why bother becomming a dev), or victimizing oneself when engaging in DDOS or active hacking?
Im not about to list banned links but Ive seen enough of them to know
Jesus fucking Christ. I had to come back to this, because lord almighty you have 0 idea what you're talking about and it's baffling how absolutely ignorant of the law you are.
Entrapment is a pretty strong defence there -- or a whole bunch of other things especially since TCAP was only about 30% successful because of pushy deputies and crass techniques. Those cases are sealed of course because cops and you only see successes or convictions on the news (LOL). That has nothing to do with the law on that matter.
Talking about an illegal act does not necessary establish criteria for a full criminal investigation or charge unless a standard of evidence is met. IM's are really only hearsay unless you have two or more corroborating pieces of evidence (rule of 3, such as a bus ticket receipt, datebooks, etc). Court rules can differ though depending on state laws and how the recording happened as is with the actual mens rea of the offence.
Unauthorized private log leaks or disclosures fall into illegal wiretaps for example (first party vs third party rules) and that does weaken their viability.
In civil court you have a lower standard for these leaks, but anything that is considered to be equal to an illegal wiretap would be thrown out right away once it is established that it was 'unauthorized disclosure'. Its why despite the evidence IMVU has not likely removed Neer from the site or employment (if these links warrant errant activity).
Then again discussing these matters in a legal sense at this point is hopeless. Its a personal opinion to say relying on 'unauthorized disclosure' to take out vigilantism on the site is misguided and a waste of time. As is silence from PR who will not discuss said leaks for jusifiable reasons (twitter)
I may not be a lawyer but I know enough about the rules of evidence to discuss this, but any further would be practicing law without a licence. Claiming I have no idea about the law is foolish if you are not willing to cite case law appropriately...
Thus proving you still have no fucking clue what you're talking about.
Even then PJ openly declares on it site it is only looking to get people arrested not convicted anymore (active vs passive?). But I wont attack an organization like that knowing very well they want infantilism criminalized too (reguardless of who is involved).
Are you trained by PJ looking for a score on FA? by single sourcing your arguement?
but at this point this whole stupid conversation is so far off topic (thanks a lot) this should just be dropped..
Rules of admissibility are not so cut and Dry as PJIC seems to make it though.
Using that site to bolster giving people legal right to leak confidential notes however did send that off-topic. Especially when PJ has nothing to do with the site, unless they find an individual target on it.
About two months ago one of FAF's most valued and respected members passed away. After her passing, her mother started to browsed the forums; reading through her daughter's thousands of posts. In a way, part of her daughter was left on the forums. When the forums last went down she was apparently very upset... but I can't imagine how she must feel right now.
There were also many artists who were commissions via the forums, and a huge array of tutorials and guides on art/literature. A source of income and knowledge for many has now been lost.
Well done. I hope you're all very happy and think was worth it.
Notes are not the prime issue for NDA's either (as legally the contents are protected not the PM itself in US law), you have legal orders, law enforcement screens / fishing expeditions, orders to remove content, private copyright complaints and other judicial matters (like government privacy investigations) that require a form of enforceable confidentiality for those handling it.
A site administrator is usually held in contempt if they publicly declare the orders on their website or discuss details s they are Third parties. However first parties can which make it difficult for admins to deal with.
FA isnt big enough to have a legal department so it is left to volunteer mods to follow through with handling that type of material. Or referring it to external legal resources for instruction and backing.
Every website on the internet has these issues at some point, but limited enforcement resources will only go for the biggest results.
And FA has a legal department now, because they were bought by IMVU, which is part of an even larger corporation.
Only thing IMVU may be giving FA is a free lawyer. Otherwise its BAU and mods are responsible for handling confidential inquiries.
Admin have cart blanche access to your notes and the NDA is a legally binding agreement with front-line staff to prevent them from being leaked and allows them to liason with any legal representatives. It is backed by IMVU's lawyers.
Mods not so much but top-level staff yeah. No different from any other place.
They just wanna watch things burn and whine about not being catered to.
I will acknowledge that note permissions have been different in the past. The current system has been born of necessity combined with past experiences giving indication of where further restrictions would be needed.
As a very private person, I like to know that my personal notes are kept private (though I don't usually use FA's system for personal communications).
on a general note i just don't get harassing people, like sending stupid notes or shouts to their pages or leaving comments wherever. it just seems like high school stuff..
Sexual harassment needs a lawyer and a police report, otherwise your pretty much blowing smoke, especially when its about free speech.
Look at Ashley Mason for example...
And what does Ashley Madison have to do with anything??? It was a site devoted to people having affairs and was made up mostly of bots. It was consenting adults that were involved.
Please, for the love of god, stop talking about legal issues you know NOTHING ABOUT.
Except it was high profile people with legitimate issues to hide instead of people attacking admins for not martyring themselves or dying horrible deaths over disagreements?
I don't see you other then whining about a failed trouble ticket as having any legal knowledge either on this matter?
You either need to actually research what you are trying to dismiss, or stop leaving comments because you are coming off very ignorant and I don't think you want people to view you in that way.
(I also never once mentioned a trouble ticket.)
Account theft in 2013 (during comment hiding crisis) == hacking
Comment abuse associated with comment hiding features (2013 == hacking)
The thumbnail abuse tag 3 weeks ago == hacking
The note link was in 2011 or 2012 I count 5 DDOs attacks and 2 other major abuses of site infrastructure before then.
The site is very much being hacked.
I dont keep names and dates for a reason, but if your not the TT person then that is withdrawn because you all sound the same.
(Plzdon'tshootme)
Gotta keep sweeping all your dirt under the carpet as always. Right? I mean, it's not like no one can see the mountain that's already formed, anyway.
And honestly keep the forum removed or completely reboot everything but the user tables.
So basically you breached the VBulletin contract.
...of course you'd say otherwise, and given you have IMVU on your side, well, money wins. :/
I do like it that there is no mention of the IDs in the OP. The thing that actually triggered the mods to leave, and not necessarily the NDAs.
I guess that's how it rolls in the furry fandom. It's not about community. It's about throwing your friends under the bus for personal gain, dismissing criminal behavior, making an ass of yourself in public, and going on popularity-fueled power trips. How many popufurs do this? Seems there's always something douchey coming from someone these days. It's as if the whole fandom is still stuck in high school, it's so immature. Why can't we just have fun and enjoy our anthros without all this petty backstabbing and nasty politics?
Just like FA:U it was not part of the IMVU deal? idk.
Typically that means someone pulled a plug due to severe legal weight. Like DMCA trolling.
It still exists out there, just not in any association with FA nor is it about FA directly anymore.
And please, do not think that as I type this, I defend the actions of Preyfar however-
All of the furry community is not about throwing friends under buses. Not even MOST of the community is about throwing friends under buses. Try to remember for every horrible person's exploits that reach your ears, there are wonderful furs performing selfless tasks. You will not hear of them as they are by definition, selfless, and do not ask for or want recognition.
But when you look, they are there.
Arcturus, that guy from Kyrgyzstan (forget his name), and others, thrown under the bus. But hey, popularity in the fandom, woo!
It's the "popufur" disease.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpl....._free_software
About two months ago one of FAF's most valued and respected members passed away. After her passing, her mother started to browsed the forums; reading through her daughter's thousands of posts. In a way, part of her daughter was left on the forums. When the forums last went down she was apparently very upset... but I can't imagine how she must feel right now.
There were also many artists who were commissions via the forums, and a huge array of tutorials and guides on art/literature. A source of income and knowledge for many has now been lost.
Well done. I hope you're all very happy and think was worth it.
Otherwise your whole thing dies and everyone suffers.
Start your own site and don't go torching your rivals house or trashing the admin in his own because of it.
Vigilantism is a crime, that is why most of the details are burried. Don't like it file a police report or hire a lawyer.
And FA has been down for significant time because of those two things in the past.
Stop talking about laws you know NOTHING about.
After a certain point of hearing about it you ban the person or lose the site, then you have to start using legal means (NDA) to preserve your integrety.
When you effectively slander somone, you are as well but civilly. Costs alot of money but its possible.
But I'm not going to argue about it. Show a lawyer some of the FA leaks stuff and see what I mean.
DDoSing is forcing a bunch of information to a site which bogs it down and causes it to crash.
Slander HAS to be fictitious and cause monetary losses. No ifs or ands. Everything that has been leaked has been factual and backed up by evidence. Slander and libel have to be falsified information.
Please do some research, seriously. Please.
You really, legitimately, have no idea what you are talking about and you need to shush. Trust me, a lawyer would throw out any case related to FA under the nonsense you've stated.
All the negative information on this website has yet to be proven or validated in court as the intended action the "whistleblowers" have proven. Until then it remains heresy and unsubstantiated under several civil court rules. Though it has caused financial and civil harm to several website operators and attempts to fix the community for the better (especially somone who has the legal right to do what he is). Most however who get up high enough seem to fall away and start hacking the place as revenge (which does nothing to most of the notes). The proof is behind client-attourney privilidge for reasons of personal safety.
One sided arguments do not constitute or validate any of the complaints levied at this site and even then many of these leaks could be inadmissible if somone where to finally take proper action. People have taken unessasary action based off of these things and that would lead to libel / slander if it ever were to be proven. There is little proof that the convos where intended to be used as implied.)
If it were there would be huge liability and damages against FA. No one has tested it however.
If FA were to ever shut down in a RageQuit people at the top would be at serious risk of physical harm for example.
They just choose to ban people for it, rather then enforce expensive rights.
So please, stop commenting. You keep trying to speak in terms of legalities, but you clearly know nothing about the law OR the situations that have arisen.
Proof of screenshots do nothing but show conflicts, not actual violations of law or anything more then long standing issues.
You seem to think FA has some kind of legal or mandate to not be ran by incompetency... It doesnt work like that. Its not bound to do anything suggested by anyone and it could shut itself off at any time.
I will not argue proof on links that are banned from this website.
FA hasn't broken the law but poeple shure have to try and force the admin's hand.
Though you yourself I dont think participated in those things.
About two months ago one of FAF's most valued and respected members passed away. After her passing, her mother started to browsed the forums; reading through her daughter's thousands of posts. In a way, part of her daughter was left on the forums. When the forums last went down she was apparently very upset... but I can't imagine how she must feel right now.
There were also many artists who were commissions via the forums, and a huge array of tutorials and guides on art/literature. A source of income and knowledge for many has now been lost.
Well done. I hope you're all very happy and think was worth it.
It's rather ignorant.
Though no one has posted the notice or legal paperwork, hence its impossible to tell.
If you allow others to grow though, you allow your company to live beyond you.
About two months ago one of FAF's most valued and respected members passed away. After her passing, her mother started to browsed the forums; reading through her daughter's thousands of posts. In a way, part of her daughter was left on the forums. When the forums last went down she was apparently very upset... but I can't imagine how she must feel right now.
There were also many artists who were commissions via the forums, and a huge array of tutorials and guides on art/literature. A source of income and knowledge for many has now been lost.
Well done. I hope you're all very happy and think was worth it.
vb2 master race
You guys seriously need to get your shit together. It's getting old.
Otherwise this stuff happens when it gets too big.
There are furry lawyers and doctors out there who run their own businesses *just* fine. If there's a problem, it is dealt with professionally and quickly.
I'm quite sure that if someone *competent* was in charge of FA ... again, we'd be just fine. But no. Instead, we get someone who continually lies to us, spends most of his time playing Elder Scrolls, ignores problems until they boil over to become an even bigger mess, hires highly questionable people to be on his management team, and takes 8 years to create something as simple as folders for an art site.
Dragoneer is *not* competent, but that doesn't mean everyone else is on his level. Don't slander us like that. Have some dignity.
Attacking him just ruins it for the poeple who don't care.
That ideal has never been challenged legally, nor has any of the naysayers who claim pottentially illegal activity has gone on by it or its admins. Nothing has ever been proven in court and when it has the site has followed the law accordingly. The proof of any lies, cheats, or anything is heresay period and any probing of that leads to "burned furs" or "vigilantism". My question is that if it is so Justifiable why haven't poeple followed through with legality yet? (background checks, tax fraud files etc)...
To me if its not been argued in front of a judge then it is just slander and drama. A competent lawyer not being paid wouldn't touch this type of stuff--for fear of being doxed when a communally disagreeable but legally proven
Just because the community doesn't like it doesn't mean it tries to destroy it (its not a monopoly anymore). Though thats what seems to happen as groups in this community have been known to rack each other until they fall apart and disappear.
If poeple are not comfortable though, fine people can leave but as I said before burning the house while doing so does nothing.
My question will also always remain, if it is so bad how is it still running after a decade? Only one other site just as bad is still operative? To me that means something right IS being done, and that has nothing to do with "there is no where else to go" anymore.
IMVU has all the rights to this site. Dragoneer is hired by IMVU. That's the only reason he still has power.
As for everything else you said:
If you are able to say your thoughts, so is everyone else. Try not to forget that fact.
This dismissive attitude of "it doesn't belong to the community" is what makes a lot of people angry. This is a community site, it is built off of it's members, if everyone packed their bags and left this site would be nothing.
"Nothing has ever been proven in court and when it has the site has followed the law accordingly." You just contradicted yourself.
"The proof of any lies, cheats, or anything is heresay period and any probing of that leads to "burned furs" or "vigilantism". My question is that if it is so Justifiable why haven't poeple followed through with legality yet? (background checks, tax fraud files etc)..." The word is "hearsay". And stop using the word "vigilantism". You have no idea what it means. No one has said what FA is doing is illegal, but that doesn't mean the site should be managed so poorly. Proper management is what fosters a good community and business. Not nepotism and corruption.
A competent lawyer not being paid wouldn't touch this type of stuff--for fear of being doxed when a communally disagreeable but legally proven A competent lawyer wouldn't care about doxing and would still take the case, provided it has a payoff and is substantial.
Please stop posting until you've done some research.
Mistakes have been made but when one bug needing 3 hours of coding generates 3000 duplicate tickets requiring 2 hours of coaxing people -- complicating the fix (time constraints). You either burn the site down, or you destroy it. IMHO when money became involved (during the LLC) the site died as 'communal'.
The community makes FA. No community, no site traffic, no FA.
This dismissive attitude of "it doesn't belong to the community" is what makes a lot of people angry. This is a community site, it is built off of it's members, if everyone packed their bags and left this site would be nothing.
"The proof of any lies, cheats, or anything is heresay period and any probing of that leads to "burned furs" or "vigilantism". My question is that if it is so Justifiable why haven't poeple followed through with legality yet? (background checks, tax fraud files etc)..." The word is "hearsay". And stop using the word "vigilantism". You have no idea what it means. No one has said what FA is doing is illegal, but that doesn't mean the site should be managed so poorly. Proper management is what fosters a good community and business. Not nepotism and corruption.
Every site that has dedicated itself to "furry art" is full of nepotism and corruption. No matter where you go you will find it. Traffic and communal revolts do nothing to change that.
FA is just a big target because of its size. Haters will move to Weasyl or IB (or anywhere else) when FA dies or cooperates with the community's wishes.
A competent lawyer not being paid wouldn't touch this type of stuff--for fear of being doxed when a communally disagreeable but legally proven[/i] A competent lawyer wouldn't care about doxing and would still take the case, provided it has a payoff and is substantial.
I don't think anyone but somone with 6 figures and the ability to hire private security would attempt it, knowing whats happened to anyone the community didn't like at a certain point. Such matters are private though.
Being a furry can be dangerous sometimes.
Its why Fa has never disclosed whom it is getting its legal assistance from prior to IMVU's acquisition.
"Nothing has ever been proven in court and when it has the site has followed the law accordingly." [/i]You just contradicted yourself.
Or FA has always cooperated with any investigation and never been found at fault with anything other then being a high-profile website? Aka judicial orders to remove content or deliver known data of users to legal authorities?
Criminal or civil.
I honestly, 100% believe, you really have no idea about all of the massive problems FA is rife with. And you REALLY need to stop speaking in legal terms when you clearly don't know the laws you are trying to twist to fit your view.
One Year later DA basically banned furry art entirely and the site crashed in a bloom (DA relented to banning adult furry stuff only) because of IRL legal drama and site-destroying antics over it.
Ive been to court over my involvement with this site, and had to deal with this stuff at least 3 times up here.
The site was supenoaed once because of my membership on it, but since I am not a big name few if any know about it, or its already been court-sealed. aka nonpublic so it doen't exist...
I know just about everything about those little details that everyone else does try me? without re-hashing any of the FAleaks, FA transparency, hacker blogs, drama blogs (ED vivisector etc), the mock twitter accounts, or the various personal arguments taken out of context...
I just don't agree with foaming at the mouth over administrative decisions nor do I wanna risk getting banned for revealing confidential information.
dA bans all pornographic art. They never banned furry art. I started using dA around 2002 and I was never banned for furry art. :V The legal drama dA has had was when one of the admins tried to snatch the site out from under the other admins (similar to how Dragoneer acquired FA).
I really doubt you've been to court over FA lmao.
Honestly, you're just making things up at this point and I am tired of talking in circles with you. So peace out, have a good life, and believe whatever you want to.
Weasyl hasn't reached the point of heavy handed tactics yet if you cant handle reality, and as I have said to people before I am one phone call away from proving these things and staffed by everyone who has fled FA's Tyranny.
You may find more positive aspects over there, so long as you dont complain about needing to run an income off of a site staffed by corrupt admins.
also see Rule 19 http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/.....ge-5.html#h-25. US laws were argued as having relavance during discussion of currently NDA bound information related to this matter.
There may be some emotional distress, but can you establish a proper prima facie agreement to force me?
if so call 519-253-3000 and tell them "The aspie general" is ruining the internet again :P/
Just so you know, court cases are a matter of public record. If you had ever actually been involved in a case with FA, it would be somewhere on the internet.
I have provided the number to the legal advocacy group that assisted me with my legal dealings (including having to deal with FA bullshit)
If you cannot call the number then do not make your claims.
I can't handle arguing with the willfully ignorant, so I am 100% through responding to you.
The rest is just banter.
That number is to a group of advocates including legally registered attourneys at law whom maintain an active relationship with me.
As I said I will have to pay for the consult, but the lawyer has been posted.
If you dont wish to respond then that is your choice. I will not escilate beyond this.
About two months ago one of FAF's most valued and respected members passed away. After her passing, her mother started to browsed the forums; reading through her daughter's thousands of posts. In a way, part of her daughter was left on the forums. When the forums last went down she was apparently very upset... but I can't imagine how she must feel right now.
There were also many artists who were commissions via the forums, and a huge array of tutorials and guides on art/literature. A source of income and knowledge for many has now been lost.
Well done. I hope you're all very happy and think was worth it.
https://www.weasyl.com/journal/9513.....fender-journal
Absolutely no mention of the actual reason forum staff resigned (the demands of government identification)
No mention of the fact that community oriented individuals are constantly removed and silenced for being critical.
No mention of the fact that it was a vast majority decision of the community to split (in fact, comments claiming CONTRARY to this from you)
And this is only the tip of the iceberg, honestly. I'm not wasting time typing out a large, in depth comment that will probably be deleted anyway.
I'm amazed IMVU still tolerate you, Dragoneer.
Ever since they bought FA, you've caused nothing but trouble through consistent mismanagement, poor decisions, and lack of real, effective PR
About two months ago one of the FAF's most valued and respected members passed away. Her mother browsed the forums, read through her daughter's thousands of posts. In a way, part of her daughter was still in the forums. When the forums last went down she was apparently very upset... I can't imagine how she must feel now.
There were also numerous artists who got commissions off the forums, and a huge array of tutorials and guides on art. A source of income and knowledge for some has now been lost.
Well done. I hope you're all very happy and thought it was worth it."
Tis a sad story, indeed.
About two months ago one of FAF's most valued and respected members passed away. After her passing, her mother started to browsed the forums; reading through her daughter's thousands of posts. In a way, part of her daughter was left on the forums. When the forums last went down she was apparently very upset... but I can't imagine how she must feel right now.
There were also many artists who were commissions via the forums, and a huge array of tutorials and guides on art/literature. A source of income and knowledge for many has now been lost.
Well done. I hope you're all very happy and think was worth it."
If people are seriously this 'upset' with the site...why are they still here? I'll never completely understand that. I know some wish to stay because of 'commissions' and that there's less traffic on other sites to sell to...but then keep your presence to a minimum? There's no reason to go flailing around angrily about it all.
That being said, it sounds like no one came out smelling like roses this time around. That being said, an NDA is usually required by US federal law regarding companies and sensitive information. So..whether you'd trust the forum admin with your stuff or not...FA, now being owned by a corporation needs to pass out NDA's to avoid lawsuits/legal action, whether IMVU has access to the information or not...it's law. I mean I had to sign one working a a call center cause I dealt with addresses, names SSN's etc...it's kind of the same here.
Is FA perfect? Hell no. But then again, what is? Perfection is an opinion. Cause to be TRUELY perfect, means you have to be perfectly good...and perfectly bad at the same time.
Anywho...I hope the new forum works well, and I wish no ill on anyone involved in this. Just a third party sticking his nose in :P
As for the IMVU buyout...the site has had the most updates this year since they've had in the last five. So what if the staff's attitudes aren't...perfect, if that's what you mean. People are people and no one's perfect. Everyone's got a dark side, everyone's got secrets. Even CEO's of massive multi-million dollar companies. Perhaps especially those.
But I don't know. I can only say what I've experienced. I don't' trust people enough to put stock in the drama that people talk about regarding the staff's....private endeavors, or even in what the staff say themselves. So long as I can post art, make art, talk to others and the like, I'm content.
Dismissing people on the grounds of "don't like it, leave" helps no one. And if the artists leave, the users will follow, FA will become a shell like VCL.
The site will continue to tear itself apart if things aren't improved.
And sadly, backroom politics are indeed something that happen. It happens everywhere. Sometimes even -because- of NDA's people are unable to talk about it due to those little agreements being legally binding contracts.
That being said, I'm sorry if I was sounding like I was trying to whack people in the face with 'leave if you don't like it'. I...don't like it when silly mantras are used as weapons. I'm just curious.
On another note, thank you -so- much for having a civil discussion with me about this! I'm glad that I got someone so calm explaining this to me.
It appears to be FA staff vs FA users, constantly. In this case, it's throwing the old forums under a bus.
That being said, it seems that the staff didn't handle the forum issue very well. Seems people on both sides let their emotions get the better of them, and that never ends well ;.-.;
And yeah, lots of scatter...but, if the site is really -that- bad, maybe the scatter is necessary? Sometimes it takes a fanbase leaving before the site they left improves. I don't know for sure, I'm just a curious fatass.
"FAF doesn't hand hold and tells people what it is" == People are allowed to be assholes and rude.
'We dont want a hug box as there are too many in the community already' == we are allowed to trash people and throw out any common decency, accommodation, or civility if we don't like you (rendering these principles irrelevant).
'we want an open community where no one is afraid of repercussions for people who speak out about controversy in the community" ==
we are burnt buttholes who have no where else to go because we are ruining it for everyone and don't care about collateral damage.
We have appointed ourselves the non-violent mediators of all things furry and will support action against anything we dont agree upon.
Insults are acceptable as is some bit of "chan-spam".
Yeah definately a cesspool like most forums today (as social media and mandated IRL identification eats people like that alive), was a nice place to get overly verbose details of mainsite dev and issues before the hackers and physical threats against mainsite admin forced that behind the COC/NDAs.
The rest was... Incredibly depressing and nothing constructive, even to me the art forums were pretty much just a reminder of how closed the community really is (and has to be).
Its fun to lurk but a "aspie retarded pedophile/ babyfur " joining is only asking to become flame bait. Reguardless...
The forum will survive if it can find its own brand outside of "FA divorcee survivor" as I do believe Carenth is a balanced and fair admin.
Granted, there were a lot of douchebags on the forums who took it too far, but let's be honest, someone coming there and saying things like *licks your nose and giggles while putting my hand down your pants* will creep a lot of people out. The furry fandom isn't just a sexual lifestyle and fetish, it's a hobby for some, and they don't want to be associated with the creepy sexualization that got the fandom ostracized in the first place.
Most babyfurs have given up or gone completely private because "the fix" is impossible and will never be improved upon ever. For many (like myself) even talking about it outside of FA or IMs is a risk to one's personal safety. Correction for us is often worse then the action, and can be downright abusive--with no real change of behaviour. (And I am not talking about just the p word here -- the WHOLE IDEA is condemned by most). That opens up a huge expressional debate that is a risk to even open up.
For other fetishes or expresisons, You really can't take it out of people 100% though you can try. Some of the over-boarding is almost useless because anthropomorphism is evil to the ostracizer no matter what corrective actions are taken.
It becomes a morbid curiosity like any other "fringe" group that runs into the public eye. People will just use "flamboyance" as justification for their own beliefs and communal action against the group.
I think common decency is probably better then "open displays of fetishes" but I don't go into these debates too much as it is a 'risk management' issue. Everyone has their limits, finding one that meets everyone's needs is impossible and some will naturally be ostracized.
Our "creepyness" is doubled because of that so take some of it with a grain of salt.
People hate distinctive labels for a reason.
Like, people would post threads about "What do you think of diaperfurs", or "why do people hate furries". The more "vocal users" would fly into that thread like flies on honey and begin either derailing or deriding the OP.
The Mainsite discussion area was always rampant with "Critics". If people wanted to comment on it being a cesspool, the Mainsite discussion areas were the worst.
Just my opinion though as if i wanted to get "technical" I would just tweet the people who are involved with respectful questions and not accusations.
The forums had a period of burned furs, but that was back in 2008-2009 before it went nanners in 2010.
Sadly Ive made my decision.
Ive been tracking the forums since 2008 without an account.
I know tamias personally, if anyone doesn't agree with his bullshit, it's "troll and a cesspool" doesn't matter how old it is.
I can tell you first hand that the forums were better overall this year than any other that ive seen, and ive been there for 10+ years
by bitch slapping.. do you mean 'Neer the satanic dictator demanding your IRL souls' or the failed site merge in 2008 or 9?
One is old news now, the other is probably the hindsight of cooler heads and no emotion.
Context is everything.
FUCK
OFF
Cant take it legally? your just another thug who needs his face slashed open...
And thugs who talk like that really are just that LMAO.
If you are going to become so enraged over a single "babyfu" and a migrane...
Then why are you even on your keyboard dude? Monitors can be harmful for those...
I like FA, I do want FA to thrive, but I'm getting more uncomfortable being here the more I see serious issues be ignored instead untill THIS point, instead of openly discusses earlier as a community...
This makes me so fucking concerned you have no idea. WHY did they not sign it? What the fuck was in it to make anyone who wasn't on your payroll bat an eye?
Usually requires you to have ID on file with them.
FA is not unique in this with its elements.
the NDA and ID on file (aka keeping you honest with your real information) with the forums opinion on the site...
Was the last straw.
The site will run however it feels now without FA's lordship.
I wasn't aware there were problems between site and forum administration beforehand.
What is the new site's URL, in any case?
Its been a stack of things only resulting in the forum separating. I dont think a positive separation is really possible but oh well.
Reguardless the link is here: https://phoenix.corvidae.org/ I shouldnt be in trouble for posting it but well we know the rules.
And depending on how much information you are handling and how much access you have in the back-end (coding, etc.), that the ID may or may not not be required.
For the forums, the only people who were given more access to user data (such as resetting passwords, security information, etc) were the assigned head admin(s) and the holder of the licence. They could in turn restrict the regular moderators' access for security reasons.
The problem wasn't the NDA. Most of us would have happily signed. What made us uncomfortable was the ID and if something should happen in case of a leak.
Note, we have no qualms with FA or it's administration, it was just that small aspect and right after a fiasco with some leaked logs. Frankly, I am a bit disappointed that it blew up as it did and wish things weren't taken so far.
I still don't get it then, though - have you ever gone to cons? I've known con staff (will not name the one, but it's in the midwest) taut around personal info like that of real names with even non-staff members like myself rather casually.
And I will forever have trust issues with furry 'professionals' because of it lol.
But point is.. I don't see why it's that much of a concern - your ID - given that you probably give the same access to others within the fandom (and ignoring the fact that anyone with enough time and motivation could track down pretty much any identity online :U). That's why I'm suspicious of the interaction between FA site staff and forum staff.. just seems like there's something more lol.
Usually, I am wary of a con staff member until I see their work ethic as a con staff/volunteer.
As for private information, like credit cards, IDs, addresses, and money, you do need to levy a bit of your own personal information if you have to handle any of that stuff.
I am not going to confirm nor deny that there's more to it, but that's all I will say.
The people saying dumb shit like "lol nothing of value was lost xdd" or "they were all meany troll poo poo head :(((" have no fucking idea and are in all likelihood just mad that someone had the audacity to not enable their hugbox. I want to avoid ranting because then this would start bordering on incomprehensible, but basically I hope certain lovely, 100% transparent individuals are violently run over by a truck.
Oh, if anyone's unaware here's the new forum.
https://phoenix.corvidae.org/forum/.....ty-discussion/
retards can easily spout the "nothing of value" or "it was a cesspool of poop", there was something of value lost, red's posts.
Picaduck, no idea who you are, don't agree with what you say, but if you're not in sales or marketing your talents are being wasted because you could probably sell sand to a Sultan with that amount of energy and enthusiasm. You must have really nice pants.
I can smell a lie from a mile away and I am a nobody which makes it an easy vocation. Though flame wars like this make for fun entertainment LOL. Just my way of contributing and watching people with motivation blow it on useless whistle-blowing instead of actually doing something to change a communal stance. (like the forum owner did put the efforts into other sites instead of this one). I find it fun to challenge peoples stances as well - without insults or using doxxing to force things out. (because thats when I get called out to stop the real dangers from taking advantage of communal weakness).
Its all free speech (until the callouts happen or admin asks me to withdraw) afterall.
Please indulge me as your "useless whistle-blowing" comment has aroused my curiosity. Do you think that all whistle-blowers (eg Snowden, Manning, Rost, Tripp) are useless & wasting their time for nothing or only ones on FA?
It is fun to poke at the same arguements that have been heard for the 500th time until the 4th wall breaks and somone else gets banned IRL for a while for taking the drama to the next level over pretty much somone who is a nobody.
"But again my qualifications are not provable without serious security issues being raised."
Please explain to me why you would even bring up having such credentials in the first place if you can't talk about them?
I mean, not that I expect a serious reply since you're either some dude puffing hot air (as I think you are) to look like an ~Internet Badass~ or you really are a badass black ops security specialist in which case you will laugh knowingly at the idiot on the internet and recline on your pile of medals and cash. Regardless of which it is, I have no delusions that you're going to just suddenly change your mind and tell me whatever I want if I just yell at you enough over the internet so I have no plans to pursue this question any further. :3
Black ops is not what I do though, think mystery shopper but for people who romp around social media claiming offences occurred without proof.
Thanks for playing though have fun with the fireworks.
Go to a fender journal. Any fender journal. A comedian is set for life. Wow, maybe I should make a web series out of these things in my spare time; It will be a hoot.
Success is mixed though.
It is probably better for everyone's sake that I do.
If FA finally goes belly up itll all be ancient history anyways.
I dont agree about the resolution though as only the admins really settled it. If thats enough for you great, but will see how this effects the relations in 2-3 years.
Arguing is pointless though you are right. Its why leaks continue to happen.
Oh. Ah.
"*Sigh*...right...I'll go microwave popcorn. Gimme a minute...or not. I can always catch up later. Long as I've got my popcorn."
But in all seriousness, yeah, I can see where you're coming from. *nods*
-Auro
*golf clap*
IMVU who OWNS this site (remember that Neer, they own the site, they are asking you to run it on their behalf) should of ALSO have known about this going on and apparently never did...
Also why didn't you even make an effort to even go to FAF side and say "Hey this is the FA:U weekend, can you give us more time so we can continue discussions?"...you never did, you took no effort and instead had the FAF link removed which IS a sign that you made your choice on the matter. You could of left up a temporary message stating "FAF forums is currently dealing with an issue and having discussions between the FA administration and the FAF Community."
I mean I know you have bad Karma Neer, but really get control on that or its gonna get worst in about 4-5 months from now...
Am I the only one here who is like...so desensitized?
Where's the popcorn?
-Auro
Nice cover story. Yeah, I wouldn't trust you baddies my personal ID and information either for this cumstain you call a website. They moderation team resigned because of your failures, your lies, and your own greed.
I certainly enjoyed my time there. :V
Delete any info you feel is risky first though.
Just like how no one cares about mine.
You've nothing to worry about.
It's not like people are going after your ss #.
You people are disgusting sometimes. And those that care are called "drama queens". Oh, someone sexually assaulted a woman at a con? Drama. Oh, con chairman embezzled money? Drama.
As long as you people get your art, you don't care.
I'm sure there are a lot of awesome furries out there, but damn, they sure do seem few in number and hard to find. Maybe it's just that the gross part of FA is more vocal?
Whatever. Dragoneer gets his victory dance, throwing another friend under the bus as usual. It's so gross.
I fully expect you to report any such things to the police.
> You people are disgusting sometimes. And those that care are called "drama queens". Oh, someone sexually assaulted a woman at a con?
I actually find you disgusting, because if you truly believe that, then you should be getting legal enforcement involved instead of yelling about it on the Internet. Seriously, crying about that sort of thing on the Internet instead of actually dealing with the problem is really disgusting behaviour.
> Whatever. Dragoneer gets his victory dance, throwing another friend under the bus as usual. It's so gross.
Who cares about Dragoneer!? You apparently know for a fact of someone sexually assaulted a woman at a con and won't get the police involved, nor doing any campaigns in real life to help that woman. What the fuck, man?
> I'll fully expect that the a large portion FA userbase would defend a serial child rapist and murderer in the future as long as they got their porn.
I fully expect you to report any such things to the police.
They weren't saying that if they happened to come across something like this, they wouldn't personally do something about it. They ONLY noted that there are some people who would DEFEND the wrong doer. That's it. There's no statement about "I actually saw something happen to be able to go to the authorities in the first place". Only a commentary on what they've noticed from the drama that's been going around here and how hardcore accepting some people are in the fandom and if they like someone they WILL defend them no ifs ands or butts. That's it.
> You people are disgusting sometimes. And those that care are called "drama queens". Oh, someone sexually assaulted a woman at a con?
I actually find you disgusting, because if you truly believe that, then you should be getting legal enforcement involved instead of yelling about it on the Internet. Seriously, crying about that sort of thing on the Internet instead of actually dealing with the problem is really disgusting behaviour.
Who said THEY personally saw the act occur? No one. Who said they would have the ability or capacity to go to police when this is the internet and they could've easily just have read about the incident online? No one. You automatically drew a conclusion of what this person has done or not done based on the fact they're mentioning an incident. You didn't even stop to ask if they were involved or if they'd just read a news post or someone spoke about it with clear evidence, or hell even if this actually happened or if it's just more he said she said. You just automatically went "this person saw a bad act happening and didn't do anything to stop it." when no one actually said they were there or capable of doing so.
> Whatever. Dragoneer gets his victory dance, throwing another friend under the bus as usual. It's so gross.
Who cares about Dragoneer!? You apparently know for a fact of someone sexually assaulted a woman at a con and won't get the police involved, nor doing any campaigns in real life to help that woman. What the fuck, man?
And how are they supposed to do that if they weren't there, don't personally know the people involved, and probably heard about it over the internet? SO by your logic, if I saw a news report that had a guy on there and reports of sexual assault and I'm not okay with that, i'm a bad person for not creating some rally for this woman or contacting authorities on my own? What if i'm just a bystander just speaking of shit I've heard about and using it to make a point and not necesarrily saying I personally was involved?
Like seriously. Just because they KNOW of it happening doesn't mean they would be capable of doing anything about it. Especially considering this is the internet and you have no idea where the incident occured or even if the person was in the COUNTRY where it happened. All they did was speak about personal observations and those obsevations don't always have to be direct personal ones. Calm down.
In order for someone to defend it, someone else has to cry about it online instead of actually going to the police, getting involved IRL etc.
> Only a commentary on what they've noticed from the drama
No, this is shit stirring and making drama over something that should be dealt in a proper way. Internet mob mentality is irrelevant, go after the person IRL, go to the police.
> And how are they supposed to do that if they weren't there,
If they have no facts, then they don't actually know the truth and they are just creating drama and shit stirring.
> probably heard about it over the internet?
Those are not facts and it's not a genius it takes to understand why people would dismiss this as drama.
> Like seriously. Just because they KNOW of it happening doesn't mean they would be capable of doing anything about it.
I beg to differ. If you actually know, you have something factual to back it up. If you just heard of it, you don't.
> and those obsevations don't always have to be direct personal ones.
I am disgusted by you as well, defending people who apparently have no actual concrete knowledge of what happened (as referred to by your excusing of them not actually knowing the situation) and trying to call some sort of mob mentality to go after someone. This sort of thinking spoils reputation and causes immense drama that unfortunately, our community is known for.
Where did I incite or even incourage a mob mentaility?
Why do you assume they have no actual concrete knowledge of it happening? once again, they could EASILY be referencing NEWS posts or like I said PROPER EVIDENCED REPORTS. I not once said it was okay for someone to spout mistruths.
All I said was just because someone said something happened doesn't automatically mean they were directly involved in it to be able to report anything to anyone! Now you're sitting here twisting shit just because your feathers are ruffled.
Once again, no one said the shit that you're accusing them of and you're over here going "You're disgusting" for shit no one even said or did! How about stop throwing around accusations based on limited knowledge just because someone said they heard something. How can you conclude all that you have just because someone said they heard something? You can't conclude they were directly involved, you can't conclude WHERE they heard it, you can't conclude they didn't have proper evidence, you can't conclude they're just spouting shit. They literally just said they heard a thing and you used it to create this myriad of bullshit just so you can call someone disgusting.
You can EASILY hear something and have an opinion on it without actually being involved. Once again, News reports, Newspapers, hell you can read something in a book and have an opinion on it without directly being involved AND have all of the facts.
Like seriously. You just pulled a bunch of shit out of your ass with BOTH of us just so you can yell at someone.
And hell not everything you even see are going to be ABLE to be reported. My whole point entirely. Sometimes it has to be directly FROM said people.
All I said was don't automatically assume someone's doing something wrong or inciting drama just because they said they heard something. What incited drama about EITHER of our posts other than someone pulling the wrong shit out of nothing and using it to be disgusted? Hearing about something, drawing an opinion, and speaking of that doesn't automatically mean drama starter. What is this mindset people seem to have going around?
You didn't even know if dude had any evidence of ANYTHING and you had no idea WHAT they were even talking about and yet I'm defending someone with limited knowledge of a phantom situation and you're upset because we didn't go to the imaginary police.
I really don't care if you're intentionally or not intentionally doing it.
> Why do you assume they have no actual concrete knowledge of it happening?
No references provided.
> once again, they could EASILY be referencing NEWS posts
Because NEWS is so accurate... (except they aren't).
> I said PROPER EVIDENCED REPORTS
There aren't "PROPER EVIDENCED REPORTS" referenced above.
> All I said was just because someone said something happened doesn't automatically mean they were directly involved in it
When you talk about it as fact, you better actually /know/, and no, an 'arrest' it self isn't sufficient, it's for example, knowledge of the conviction. This guy doesn't even reference anything.
> No one said the shit that you're accusing them
When you make statements as if they are fact, they are read as fact, stop being pedantic.
> of and you're over here going "You're disgusting"
For reference, I am only using the word "disgusting" because that is what Calemeyr used.
> How about stop throwing around accusations based on limited knowledge just because someone said they heard something.
No, this is the Internet and there is too much misinformation and approaching posts that lack citations and proper information is not an acceptable practice, especially where heinous crimes are involved. You have the facts, you will provide them and provide references, if you don't, you're either a scum bag that doesn't really care about this issue and just intends to stir drama up or you're simply gossiping/lying for your own interests.
> You can EASILY hear something and have an opinion on it without actually being involved. O
Then you only heard it and don't actually know and therefore you should write your posts prefixing "I heard X from source Y". Not "P happened and now people are saying it's drama on this site".
> You just pulled a bunch of shit out of your ass with BOTH of us just so you can yell at someone.
I think you're the ones pulling a bunch of shit out of your collective asses so you can yell at someone.
> And hell not everything you even see are going to be ABLE to be reported. My whole point entirely. Sometimes it has to be directly FROM said people.
Then take it as a witness statement and treat it as such, document that is flawed, not "P happened".
> You didn't even know if dude had any evidence of ANYTHING
I know he failed to post it and if he really had that information, he would have followed up with the real information instead of doing a cop out, which is exactly what he did. Therefore proving the point that he is just a shit stirrer and creating drama.
> I'm defending someone with limited knowledge of a phantom situation
You're defending someone who is using a pseudonym on the Internet who spoke of this as if it was fact, but failed to provide sufficient information to show it as such.
> you're upset because we didn't go to the imaginary police.
I'm not upset, I'm "disgusted". If you really know the situation and aren't dealing with it, not even doing any sort of real life campaign to deal with the "problem" (whatever it might be) but instead crying here, it tells me a lot about the persons you are. Shit stirrers and creating drama.
THAT shows me the type of person YOU are. The overly quick to judge and always judge from the negative side of the coin even when you have literally no evidence to support a claim other than me saying some instances someone's may be speaking about may not have been one where they were able to do something, nor does it mean they were directly involved. It's your choice not to trust news reports, but again, those aren't the only ways one can obtain information and research incidents to be able to form a proper response to them. YOU just are refusing to believe any of those other sources are credible. Because one MUST absolutely be directly involved in the situation be able to be properly form a conclusion.
On top of the fact that mearly having an OPINION on a topic (which is what I've been doing, having an opinion) doesn't mean you're automatically inciting drama. You can have an opinion in a calm and respectful manner without causing drama because of it.
But again, let's just assume just because I believe that one person may draw an accurate conclusion of a situation without directly being involved in said situation (You know, like a judge would do) or that some situations someone may not be able to report to police, that means I incite drama and would not report an incident I'm directly involved in and am only trying to shit post and am suuuuch a bad person.
Please tell me more about how disgusted you are based on conclusions you drew about me that are incorrect and pulled from nothing. lol
Did you see me even reference ANYTHING specific that I saw happening that I didn't report and instead chose to cry here about? Nope. Because I didn't even reference any situations. So tell me again what you know I do. lol wow.
I mean damn can't someone see shit happening and just say they saw it happening and say they didn't like it? And how do you know that just because they posted here means they DIDN'T report it? How do you know i wouldn't?
Precisely! I don't care about your what-if scenarios. Put up or be labelled someone who creates drama and stirs shit up.
Lol
Label me what you want. I don't know you, nor do I care. If you wish to label me a person who goes outside and humps bushes and slaps grandmas, do what you want.
But I think I'm done here. Cuz if that's what you really want to do, you've shown me exactly why I really don't need to go further. Wow.
Like your whole point is asking for evidence, but then you're willing to draw a conclusion yourself without evidence and are upset that you think other people are doing the same thing? Okay then.
Just stereotypical furry. It's totally cool when he does something and okay when it's to fit his needs and arguments, but screw it if someone else does exactly he same thing!
1. Never said the situations were the same. Good job ONCE AGAIN putting words into my mouth just to fit your argument. If your intelligence level isn't adequate enough to properly present your argument without trying to pull something from my words from nothing then stop posting.
2. Didn't I mention level of severity? The only thing you're arguing is semantics. According to you, since you didn't hit me with a extreme level of prejudice it's okay. So since you didn't accuse me of rape or harrassment it's okay.
It isn't. The only difference between what you are doing and what you're claiming someone else is doing is the LEVEL OF SEVERITY. Not the actual action. Going "He is a drama starter" without actually KNOWING that this person is a drama starter (since the only thing you know about me is what you've crafted from nothing) is THE SAME THING when it comes ONLY to actions.
I am NOT saying calling someone a drama starter is the same thing as saying someone's a rapist.
Bolding that because you will pull this notion out of my point and make it seem like that's my whole point entirely.
I am ONLY saying that the act of labeling someone as something else negatively without prior evidence that points to this being true is the same thing you were saying the other guy was doing.
I am putting this for those to be able to properly understand my point without some idiot furry who can't grasp conversations screwing up my words and making it seem I've said something or made a point of something when I didn't.
Let me also put these in bold too.
- I never ONCE said it was okay for anyone to accuse anyone else of ANYTHING (rapist, harrasser, drama starter, person who kicks grandmas, etc. no matter the severity) without basis.
- My point was that, just like COURT APPOINTED JUDGES, it is possible to surmise a good educated theory or formulate a personal opinion on a situation without actually being there. Example: I heard about the earthquakes in japan on the news so I formulate an opinion based on the news and if I'm so inclined, articles on reputable websites (you know like they taught you to do in highschool! Did you go?). I wasn't PERSONALLY in the earthquake as I live in America, but I am able to formulate an opinion on the situation because I've properly researched my facts through other means.
- I was also pointing out that the intial post didn't have any specifics in it to be able to give anyone proof of anything. They mentioned a generalized statement about something, they didnt' say "I heard x happen at x point in time and during x event". If they had, then I'd be singing a different tune. They didn't say "I heard someone got harrassed at Euroference 2015 and people defeneded him and that's awful" because then asking for evidence of such claims would've been acceptable. They gave you a specific point in time and gave you a place where you'd be able to go "give me proof of these actions." As it stood, they made a casual observation like "Man...I kinda hate it when I see furries making weird comments on journals" and then someone else asked for proof then got buttmad they didn't get it.
- No one, not even the intial poster accused anyone of anything! lol They said they HEARD something happened. Saying "I heard there was a rape" is NOT the same as accusing someone of doing the rape. They heard something and then someone else stupidily got mad that they accused someone without proof. Like where? Since when was hearing about something an accusatory statement? lol idiocy. The only accusations and finger pointing came from the one person crying for evidence, and they did so without ANY. top kek.
There we go~ MY words from ME and not from some ass hat who just can't STAND anyone has anything negative to say about the furry community going around the journal looking like a fanboy.
Now I'm going to go do what I came to this journal to do in the first place.
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
the irony
I have already labelled, there is no 'want' involved.
> WHILE CRYING FOR EVIDENCE
It is not unreasonable to expect evidence for claims of heinous crimes, especially on-line. Apparently my determining people that are unable to do so are shit stirrers and drama llamas is apparently a completely comparable situation... Not.
> and are upset that you think other people are doing the same thing?
Sorry, I'm not claiming any heinous crime here. Not the same thing.
If you want to label me as something without basis then I think it says more about you than me.
But you seem to be okay with that so more power to ya.
Buuuuut i think doing so would label you as a drama and shit starter. You're okay with calling someone something without basis, without backing up anything. Heinous crime or not, you're technically still doing the exact same thing. Just because the level at which you're doing so is minor doesn't negate the fact you're prejudging something and claiming something without any factual evidence to back up your claim. Is that not what you're doing?
You have no evidence of me doing such a thing yet are going to claim it anyway. Prejudging someone based on little evidence and going to speak about such claims without such evidence is exactly your definition of a drama starter and shit stirrer.
That's typical. It's only okay to do so when it suits your needs.
Okay~ You're silly and childish and I'm sorry, but I don't continue to interact with people who prejudge people without actual basis. I'm not like that. I'd rather base judgement on a person through their own merits and things that I've seen and heard. You know. Evidence.
But hey! Being a prejudice jerk for the sake of keeping up your argument is your way of life! you do you! Prejudge that shit right up!
Prejudging without evidence is prejudging without evidence. But hey! gg
So, let's take this into perspective:
"He likes cheese"
verses
"He is a rapist"
And some how this person doesn't seem to grasp why someone would actually require evidence to be willing to accept "He is a rapist" statement point blank verses "He likes cheese". I mean, one is a fairly serious claim and the other is of very little consequence.
This person is clearly a social hermit, because otherwise they would recognise this is exactly how people communicate in real life. Not only that, they don't seem to understand that even in the legal system, we differentiate between evidence required for a heinous crime verses petty crimes. Regardless, this person is using argument fallacies like false equivalence.
And you'd damn well believe I'd report things to the police. Even if it caused a con to be shut down and the fandom's reputation ruined, I'd still do it. If I was at FA:U, I'd have reported the sexual assault to the police.
You really are a stereotypically stupid furry, aren't you?
Hey, I deal with facts, not gossip. You want to gossip and then get upset when you're stirring up shit and causing drama, boo hoo.
I mean, look at this guy's information. Now all he has provided is that the person involved was 'arrested'. Arrested does not mean he did it, it is not evidence of anything beyond being arrested, not only that but he did not support his claim and then some how wonders why people would dismiss this sort of thing as drama or shit stirring.
It's pretty obvious to me.
> Not only that, but he apparently has his head so far up Dragoneer's ass that he can see daylight.
I don't know Dragoneer, don't really care either about Dragoneer.
> The other problem is users like Ash who will defend him to the end no matter how bad he is.
I'm not defending Dragoneer, I didn't even mention Dragoneer. I'm actually talking from the perspective of people who dismiss all this crying online as drama because they aren't dealing with it in real life.
The internet have caused more harm than good to humanity -.-
FA is nothing but unnecessary drama.
Not to mention I do not believe FA was created to host as the main source of freelance artists income.
I think it all comes back to how this is a free website and they can really do whatever they want.
You can argue that they must cater to their community or else lose them, which I agree, but that is a choice they can make themselves.
What I'm really talking about though is how everytime a journal is posted on this art site for furries, this tiny little island in the middle of the interwebs ocean, there is -always- drama. It never ever fails.
Ah well.
They've failed at doing that since day 1. Hell, this is why the forums split to begin with.
With each new milestone comes a journal and the frustration of a continuously disappointed community, The loss of the forums latest and a series of past and ongoing blunders which span across many years at this point.
A: Once we can institute long overdue upgrades to the forum software and begin forum mod recruitment (which we will be announcing sometime in the next week if all goes as planned)."
So yes. We will be recruiting forum staff.
Or in other words, it'll be people handpicked for their ability to asspat the bosses, do as they are told and ban people who disagree with FA policies.
I'm afraid if staff were handpicked for their ability to deliver asspats and ban people for their opinions, however, the people who did the recruitment did an abysmal job. There is nobody on staff that isn't willing to speak their mind if they feel things are headed in the wrong direction, and I've not seen an unjustified ban in my >2 years on staff.
But hey, there is no war in Ba Sing Se, right?
People get banned unfairly , it happens
So the staff members that got banned for speaking about problems on FA is a good things? :P
Go on, justify it like a decent person and not a drone.
While there may not be anyone on staff *currently* who isn't "willing to speak their mind", no one should ignore how that very thing is what got certain past staff members (on both the main site *and* forum) banned.
And while we are on that subject, we should also remember that the actual punishments have not been consistent (if any punishment is even given in the first place), often being layered with favoritism towards specific people.
I understand that you need to follow the code you're under, but that doesn't suddenly make the facts and past events disappear. There's are plenty of solid reasons as to why so many loathe the current system.
Wait I thought the Fa staff was picked like this.
*waits for the ban or hiding of comment for voicing my opinion.*
I know this is the popular opinion. I get it. But it's incorrect. Staff isn't some kind of... herd of bushwoolies or something.
Of course I can't force you to believe me; I'm pretty much stuck to telling the truth and hoping it'll sink in eventually.
What timescales are we talking to get functioning forums back? the recruitment process for new mods may be starting in a week, but is it going to be days/weeks/months before they're back online in read/write mode?
I am sorry peeps lost their shit! Like no sarcasm intended. That shit sucks. :T
everybody is right but then everybody is wrong
everybody is turnip
everybody is turnip
Also amusing that you complain you did not approve the split when in fact you put that authority in Yaks hands -who did approve the split when it was put on the table including making 2 copies of the data- when you where too stubborn to negotiate your self with the native Forum Staff, as was to be your responsibility as manager to this site...
And such a major attention whore you are Picaduck, real classic example of the true drama of this fandom as a whole...
The forums are/were an antisocial piece of shit. FurAffinity's userbase uses the forums only when the main site goes down because of it. FA Forums are NOT for the users of FurAffinity -- most FA users won't touch the forums even with a barge pole -- but rather for a tight, exclusive, circle-jerking, curmudgeon clique of forum regulars. FA administration has WELCOMED the venomous culture of the FA Forums FOR YEARS. Hey, would you look at that, now the trolls who were allowed for years to basically OWN the forums, now *gasp* think they literally OWN the forums. Imagine that. How does the bitter harvest taste that you sowed and nurtured for years?
The people over there wanted to split from FA. They voted on a poll. The result was overwhelmingly in favor of leaving.
GOOD RIDDANCE. DO NOT REBOOT the old forums. EVER!!!
If you reboot the forums, you will bring back the god-awful culture of the FA Forums. DO NOT pass over this once-in-a-decade opportunity to flush these turds down the toilet ONCE AND FOR ALL!!!
It is my strongest recommendation to START new forums FROM SCRATCH.
There are ONLY TWO DATASETS you should import from the old forums. First, is the "Join Date", so that people know who's senior and who is a newb pretending to be hot shit. Second, is the "Post Count". EVERY ACCOUNT who inhabited and inhibited the forums -- posting more times than meals they ate since they registered (ironically, these hyperactive troll accounts rag on people who make the fandom their lives -- self hate, much?) -- gets BANNED FOR A YEAR.
My FurAffinity Forum account, registered in late 2005 (ten years ago), has just over 100 posts total; I don't know how people manage to get over 10k posts in under two years (flood spamming ~14 posts a day) -- do they even sleep? Forum regular trolls making new accounts to dodge bans get instantly permabanned. Ban everyone who made FurAffinity Forums into an unwelcoming toxic shitpit. Ban shitposters liberally. Reset FurAffinity Forum's shit culture. Bring in new blood. Bring back the OLD Old Guard.
I'm so not kidding. FurAffinity's Forums were UNUSABLE, due to tragically welcomed circlejerking trolls, to the vast majority of FurAffinity's userbase. Now, the wax moths want to leave and take the remnants of the scummy hive they were allowed to infest and overrun years ago with them. THANK GOD! HOORAY! LET. THEM. GO. Cheerfully, give them your gold and silver and shove them into the desert with a blessing to never return.
START. OVER. -- COMPLETELY OVER.
That's all I got from that.
"I posted a stupid on the forums once. People called me stupid for posting a stupid. :CC Baaaaw circle-jerk meany poo-poo cliques. Burn them all."
BTW, FYI, the Phoenix Forum (beta) is up and it is that way. ========>
Hi.
I suppose I'll say something dumb and gay like a retard about how the FurAffinity Forums have been full of shit for as long as memory can serve, and that's it's not just "old stuff". "Look at him! The 'tard! HURR HURR Muh cuntry."
Actually, now that my memory is jogged, I remember that the forums served the function of keeping shit people off the main website. For while the level 4 Phoenix Facility may prove an excellent long term storage solution for the radioactive toxic meltdown waste of the old exiled generation of shitlords, what about the new generation of just-now freshly minted shitsheads? Where will they go if not into the cul-de-sac appendix of antisocial clusterfuck that are Internet forums? I stand corrected. Thank you, stranger. I have seen the light. The forums should be immediately reinstated in preparation to brace against and render impotent, off in some ignored corner, the next wave onslaught of humanity's perpetual "bad sectors".
Message above said, "Don't expect cuddles where you've sown hate."
Step 1 kill all goons
Step 2 kill all goons
(And everyone already knows your usage of the word "kill" is metaphorical.)
The site honestly needs a full on leadership change to people that are better experienced at managing a site as well as a forum...without all of the high school drama.
I figure IMVU can fit the requirements you have set out, moving into a central role. Although, I expect this would just cause more community bawww.
Ugh, so much furry drama all over the place.
I'm sorry, but I find it hilarious xD lol
By which I mean, the constant drama and squabbling and inability for people to act like actual human beings is souring a lot of people's engagement with the community. There's very little transparency (and when it is it seems pretty dishonest and way too late anyway), no one can come to a consensus on what the heck is actually going on something like half a year after the IMVU buyout, and frankly I've been using the site for five years and there's been no changes at all to make it more user friendly, modern or workable; ergo it shows that the people behind the website don't really care much about it.
Now... on to the crisis in Syria...
Btw, one can read what you say to others; try to relax on the ''I need to defend FA'' thing; I'm sure it's not good for your health
This is completely irrelevant to what would it mean if your initial comment in this thread did not get hidden. From this, we can discern that you know the answer would be something you don't want others to see here. I would suspect you are lying about something.
Your repeated attempts at derailing rather than answering the real question have provided sufficient detail to suggest what the actual reality of the situation likely is.
I am in awe.
*reads comments*
*reads main post again*
https://i.imgur.com/YvvK9.gif
Most if not all people in FA have zero social skills to understand how forums work, nor do they able to make substantial communication with people. Majority of the people in FA does nothing more than fap to endless furry porn, collect shallow friends to suck each other's cock.
People whining about "baw.. All this is full of drama" have zero brain activity to understand that this is an issue. The issue may not impact everyone under FA but if you don't know a lick about the gravity of the situation, don't pretend as if you know any better.
Yeah.. I have better friends in FaF than I do in FA. They're smart, they have personality. they're fun to converse with. I connect with people with the same views and interests.
How do you find friends in FA? Make porn of yourself? Wait and see who catches the bait?
The forums wasn't a hug box, but it also wasn't full of cunts. Similar to the real world...
For the most part, everyone was just up front and honest. Even if you didn't want them to be. I couldn't ask for anything better
Honestly, I have not seen any online forum (other than on dial up BBSes) where the forums did not seem to mostly suck or be a general circle jerk.
> People whining about "baw.. All this is full of drama"
I view the forums as toxic personally and don't believe they will benefit the community. If you check out most major forums in existence, they are generally quite toxic to what they're catering for, with exception to a few support forums.
> Yeah.. I have better friends in FaF than I do in FA
I have better friends on FA than FaF. I don't believe I have ever met any person from FaF in real life (which is how I have met most of my friends initially that are also on FA).
> How do you find friends in FA?
I don't seek friends in FA nor FAF. After spending a significant time online, I've realized that the majority of online relationships are not worth the effort and you can tell a lot more about person through real life interactions in a much shorter amount of time with significantly less effort. I'd rather identify friends through going to conventions, furmeets etc.
I understand! I know it sucks when no one give attention to people who DESPERATELY needs it. I PERFECTLY UNDERSTAND!
Wanna look at those Furry Family people likes to post on their profile? Wow! Isn't that like circlejerking? I especially like reading of those who likes to rub on people's faces about being friends with [Insert Popular Artist Here]
Benefit the community? What if I told you FaF is a separate community that completely contrast almost EVERYTHING about FA? With that being said... I DON'T GIVE A FLYING FUCK WHAT YOU FURFAGS OF FA THINKS ABOUT FAF!
It's a community forged by connection and collective memories, NOT PORN
Marazhu met his boyfriend YellowFox in FaF and I know there are a lot of guys who met real life friends though the forums so your argument is invalid.
I'm not excusing anything with that statement, so I believe the correct word you should have used in this context is 'opinion'.
> It only appears like that because some people don't have the balls to deal with real/sane people.
I will describe in your context the appearance I see then.
My 'real/sane person' observation in real life is when they encounter chavs expressing similar behaviour to the shit-posts I view on the forums, I see 'real/sane people' avoiding them rather than wasting time on them. Not much different from the behaviour I see on line.
> What if I told you FaF is a separate community that completely contrast almost EVERYTHING about FA?
I already saw that.
> With that being said... I DON'T GIVE A FLYING FUCK WHAT YOU FURFAGS OF FA THINKS ABOUT FAF!
Wow, so tense. I didn't elect myself as an ambassador of FA people thinking about FAF though, nor was I trying to represent anyone else but myself.
> It's a community forged by connection and collective memories, NOT PORN
My connections on FA are forged by real life interactions, you have clearly failed reading comprehension on my previous post.
> Marazhu met his boyfriend YellowFox in FaF
Are these interesting people (literally never heard their names before)?
> I know there are a lot of guys who met real life friends though the forums so your argument is invalid.
I don't really recall an argument as much as an opinion. But, I don't think I am wrong considering the fit of rage and lack of focus indicated through your lack of reading comprehension that you responded with.
ಠ⌣ಠ
Butthurt butthurt everywhere!
I'll admit, I was once and IMVU user, got bored because well... it's like a dating thing, and I am not a romantic person. Also I have no words for this IMVUgate, or is it Forumgate?
Yeah, this is relevant.
I don't understand. Once the services were no longer required, he has no more hosting costs relating to FA for running the forum so there is no reimbursement needed?
Can we please have it so that we can use the SFW filter for icons too? Where we have to have a SFW icon or a NSFW icon for those with the filter off. That'd be great! I personally have no problem with the "sexualized" icons (and I put it in parenthesis because half of them are supposed to be funny and not meant to be overly sexual, only because of butts being exposed or boobs jiggling is it a problem) as I'm literally on this site and I don't cruise with the SFW option on so I personally see waaaaayy more that I'm going to cringe at than seeing a pair of jiggly buttcheeks and an outline of balls.
But I understand some people don't want to see it. I just think there should be an option for those of us okay with it and those of us not okay with it, you know? It's just people are now starting to target icons that even REMOTELY seem off even though said person has already spoken to admins about it. It'd be great if we had that option so people couldn't just hate target some icons for the sake of being a butt.
I know you guys are already working on a shit ton and dealing with nonsense on a daily, so I'm not sitting here like "DO IT NOW" or anything. Just thought it'd be a nice suggestion. I'm sure you've heard it before though.
And if anyone sees this and notices it's in the wrong place, could you kindly comment and point me to where suggestions go? Thanks!
When people google my name, the first site to come up is FA. I have disabled guests from my FA because of how unprofessional it looks with all this stuff, and instead am hosting my gallery for others to view on Deviantart. I feel it could be good for the site to have an option to filter out more mature ads and icons so it seems more professional to guests and to those who do not wish to see that content or have others see it ^^
Those that are interested are usually the ones who are interested in being in the fandom rather than just trying to see what's going on. But I have had to put on the SFW filter when I'm like browsing in a place I cant just stare at boobs all willy nilly.
I'd like for it to be a choice for the userbase instead of shutting it down for everyone. I like my butt icons. I like my jiggly butt ones and ones like i have now where it's just a butt and it's silly. My intentions were never of a sexual nature, it's the same as if I mooned someone. It's more like "hurr hurr it's my butt" rather than "oooh sexy lookit my ass" BUT there are some people who see butt and get offended, especially my jiggly one because they think there's an outline of balls by how the undies are drawn (person worked primarily with males for said premade icon and my character was already updated to trans by that point so I wasn't using his male ref anymore).
People are not all going to be okay with it, you know? My intentions are irrelevant as people are already going to draw the sex conclusion. So I'd much rather have the option of doing my own thing and not bothering anyone unnecessarily with my crude sense of humor.
I've never even used them. : |
I personally do not blame the mods for not wanting to store information that could ruin their lives on something so insecure, especially for a volunteer position. It really seems like you're painting things in FA's favor to save face... The more you try to do this, the worst the reputation becomes, the less people want to trust you. Though that's implying there's much trust left at this point anyway.
Considering that they disabled features that exploited security features of the site before fixing them, I'm not really seeing a lack of investment in user security once they're aware of a problem.
> In all my years here I have seen some shit that would have shut a normal business down in no time.
You mean like when they had a SQL injection exploit? Like DA, Microsoft, Sony, Yahoo etc. have had?
> Their I.D.s would be kept on a database of sorts
Can you cite your source for this information?
> do you have ANY idea how easy it is to hack into those things?
I personally know how easy it is to 'hack into databases'.
> Keeping employee I.D.s on a database is standard
I'm not convinced, please cite your source on this too.
> It really seems like you're painting things in FA's favor to save face...
To me it looks like a way to limit their liability, grant them a better capability to take action against do someone that does not comply with policies and of course, due diligence (which everyone seemed to be demanding FA do when people like Zaush and Zidonuke came on board).
> Though that's implying there's much trust left at this point anyway.
What trust do you need for an art site even? Just as a decade ago, I am still commissioning art just fine.
From what I understand the database is more of a way to keep tabs on who has signed NDA's and who hasn't Who's employed and who got fired. Etc. As for the incidents mentioned, they are things I have seen of staff end among other things that are rather ancient history. Stuff that I have long lost the proof of but not the memory of and hence why I didn't elaborate.
The trust comes from knowing the admins won't hand out bogus bans, remove artwork unjustly, suspend people because they don't like them, stopping art theft. There is a lot of trust that artists put into the owners of this site.
My experience has been different. When I was messing around with flash cookie exploits, it was fixed in a day (massive exploit, let you get access into other people's accounts). When I pointed out a SQL injection exploit (to do with profile, the feature that had it was disabled until they fixed it, massive exploit). When I pointed out an exploit in image processing to do with old GD libraries, it was fixed in a day. I probably encountered other things I don't remember.
> He's a bit of a security expert
Cool, we should talk.
> As for sources about Databases for employee I.D.'s, it seems to be an industry standard.
"Industry standard" is a term I often found stakeholders commonly use to justify a decision (or ignore a question they don't want to deal with), that doesn't usually have much foundation behind it.
> Toys R Us did it, Jimmy Johns did it, King Soopers does it
I don't believe those are forum moderation related though.
> 4chan does it.
I thought Moot said on an old thread that the documents were stored in a filing cabinet?
> The trust comes from knowing the admins won't hand out bogus bans, remove artwork unjustly, suspend people because they don't like them, stopping art theft.
Considering that this sort of thing even happens in Blizzard's World of Warcraft forums, EVE Online's forums, Deviant Art's community etc. I don't think it's possible to do better than reduce this to absolute 0, it seems to be below 1% currently to me though, which is currently my own observations of what happens on FA.
> There is a lot of trust that artists put into the owners of this site.
I don't really consider much of what said to be 'a lot of trust', 'a lot of trust' to me is using FA to manage your payments.
I feel like I'm missing something here.
It's just being sold as protecting the 'common user'. It's purpose is to protect the higher staff from having to stand behind their controversial decisions. Such as the anonymous unaffiliated pseudonym moderator accounts are more than likely utilized by the higher staff to make controversial decisions without having to sign their names to it.
You know, transparency and all that.
Unless those conversations included users' credit card information and addresses, that's the most asinine thing I've ever heard. I wish FA staff cared as much about user experience and site stability as they apparently do about covering their asses; this site would run like a charm.
It took them longer to implement this change than a lot of user experience and site stability changes they have made... I don't think making the lead times worse is a good idea.
"Once we can..."
Oh so never
FA Forums should be split from FA completely and I hope there will be an attempt. It is enough that 'Neer's crew is still in charge after what they did pull off. No need for them having their buttery, slimy fingers in the forums as well. ( Especially when it comes to choosing Moderators and Administrators. We all know, 'Neer and his Crew like to keep the truth buried, so they sheriffs to shoot down diggers and truth seekers )
As for FA forums splitting~ thats already happened. The forum community split off and made a new forums. Feel free to join us.
We've got blackjack and hookers
Isn't that exactly what Steam community volunteer moderators do?
Nice attempt at shifting the goalposts, but I very clearly quoted "No one in their right mind is going to do that for an unpaid volunteer position moderating shit posts on a forum".
Seems like you're attribute my responses to be defending FA, it's not a defence for FA. I don't know why you think everyone is black and white here.
I hope the forums are on a seperate server network. Or they could be taken down if FA goes down, rendering the Forums useless by design.
This stuff has happened before, where's the assurance it won't happen in the future? I just don't trust FA's leadership for positive thingns to happen.
People are afraid of signing an NDA because of a perceived history of breaches of privacy and leaks on FA ...
Except that the NDA is probably designed to fight those breaches of privacy, that are primarily due to disgruntled ex-staff who think they're entitled to leak any and all communications when they quit in the name of "free speech" and so-called "transparency." And this the *real* cause of the aforementioned problems.
See the circular issue there, folks?
I don't see why this is a big deal except for the "We just don't trust FA or Dragoneer" angle. If that's the real core issue here, then why would you want to be a moderator on "FA Forums?" Anyone may leave if they wish if they are displeased.
I don't know about the US, but in the UK, personal information protected by the data protection act can include usernames, e-mail addresses and even IP addresses. Non-public messages can be considered a form of private communication too and have certain expectations set forward.
> why is Dragoneer exposing moderators who cleaned up shit posts all day to sensitive information?
If we took the above data into account, which can be protected by the data protection act... I would guess to help them perform their tasks.
DeWinter, I'm just talking about the definitions of personal / private information in UK law and expectations, I imagine it's similar in the US?
you do any improvement and then goes deep with anything worse, good work FA, i think you do this for users dont keep noticed or updated when FA page goes offline, like right now, like 2 hours ago offline.
That being said ...
Time to drop outdated html code I guess?
As before forums would have separate staff, so their existence should not have any significant impact on main site matters. While we are aware there have been issues with the forums in the past, there are some valuable community aspects they provided that would be difficult to get through the main site alone, such as being a place for artists to get together to discuss techniques and ask for advice outside their own list of watchers.
As for appeals, it's not very prompt if people are having to wait days to hear back from staff, especially when it's about being suspended for something they didn't even do, only to have their email finally answered just two hours before the timer ends. Every time the issue is brought up we get fed the same basic excuse. I'm not trying to be difficult here, but there's just a point where stuff like this gets ridiculous.
I can't do more than be honest - if you feel it's an excuse, that's on you.
I will also note that with the exception of Dragoneer all staff answering tickets are volunteers, already. This does sometimes mean fluctuating availability, but we try to make sure that does not majorly impact users when at all possible.
(also thanks to everyone who is working on the forums, the past is the past but i just appreciate all the things the staff is doing :D )