Yap. But folks who don't want to believe never will. Such arguments aren't about logic or proof. They're along the lines of arguments about faith or politics.

It's funny how you mention faith, because I've found some eerie similarities between cults and the Trucktards (people who believe in the -failed- Stryker).

Have a look at this...
http://www.enlightened-spirituality.....nal_cults.html

...then compare to all the Truckheads making excuses for Strykers and LAV IIIs in this forum thread;
http://208.84.116.223/forums/index......howtopic=27990

Also note the references in this thread to Lt. Mike Sparks --- anyone with a strongly critical opinion of the Stryker or a strongly favorable opinion toward the M113 Gavin, to them, is "an alias of 'Sparky'".

Seems to settle it well enough for me.

It seems pretty conclusive --- DoD stamp, Pentagon stationery, "Gavin M113A3", and the IG's own signature --- but you should see tantrums the Trucktards throw over it.

Whenever you're feeling masochistic enough, check-out what "tankguy's" rant for an example (the subject of the video isn't even the M113 Gavin);
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxaQOtZbX-8

Wow, why all the fuss over a name?

It's the resons are simple, but explaining them requires a LOT of words.

In the case of the M113 Gavin, it would mean both vindication and recognition, and acknowledgment of it's history, as well as confirmation of it's place among today's "Generals"; Bradley, Sheridan, Abrams, Patton, and Buford.


It would also be a major vindication for military reform advocates, because General James Gavin was the penultimate reform advocate. He was a world-famous war hero, and an accomplished career officer who could have had five stars --- but he put his conscience over his career, and spoke out on the US Army's failings, and what was necessary to undo them.
He ultimately resigned in protest, openly citing massive corruption and indifference in what his colleague, Dwight Eisenhower, later termed the "Military-Industrial Complex".
Oh, and he also laid the foundation of the program that eventually produced the M113. XD


There's a third reason as well. Naming the M113 after penultimate reform advocate would be a tacit and blaring would be an indirect admission that;
1- The DoD isn't infallible
2- The DoD hasn't always done right
3- The DoD promoted inefficiency for profit over national security

Needless to say, there are a LOT of people in a lot of very high (and yet so very low) places who don't want a threat to their racket (M113) and public image (Gavin) to receive any official recognition.

Fourth, there are also a lot of people involved in the development, fielding, and operational use of the Bradley and Stryker that see the M113 as a threat to their legacy.
Major recognition of the M113 would mean that those who basked in the profane light of these debacles might be forced to come to grips with the reality that they were the charioteers of failures --- or worse still, that OTHERS would see them for the losers these Bradley-worshipers and Trucktards actually are.

Lastly, the Gavin Petition was organized by another reform advocate who also refused to look away like a good little tool, L. Mike Sparks. If you think I'm vicious in my attacks on military ineptitude, you haven't read anything written by Sparks --- he already speaks out on the wrong-doers, and won't cease fire for nothin'.
That Sparks is the most vocal advocate of the Gavin Petition makes a lot of more-than-slightly-insecure profiteers (of money, meaningless ego, or both) VERY irritated whenever they hear the phrase, "M113 Gavin".



That's pretty much the gist of it. Lots of people who have a lot to lose... that they didn't deserve to have in the first place.

Admittedly, the Air Force eventually named a bomber for Mitchell, and he was a pain in the ass for decades. Personally, I don't see that it's an issue - what do the USERS call it, and is it reprintable?

Ahh, okay. Semantic warfare.

Its just a name :3 I mean its Numbers and letters are inportant for referance and type, but the name doesnt mean much, Gavin sounds fine to me, lol moving away from naming things afrer native Indian tribes said army help kill off XD

Also that document :3 the naysayers could say has been faked as its 'teh internets'.

Anyway, just a name...I'm sure the operators have different names for it in different situations XD But Gavin seems like the logical name for it :3

It's more than just a name --- have a look at my epic response to Direwolf505's query.

Also, to help you understand what the Gavin-bashers are like, imagine that the British military (and Defense Industry, though they never admit it) contained a selfish little clique who beats down on anyone who refers to the FV432 as the "FV432 Bulldog".

I looked at it, and sure names means smoeting...Typhoon for the EF-2000 is after our Hawker attacker/fighter of WW2 and the natural storm - lol the germans may have not liked that as much as it was originally the export name X3
But I see your point but all in all its a name and if people get totally wacked out but its name rather than its designation name example the M113 or FV432 are a bit more inportant in my books. And I'm a bit worried people argue about the names rather than the actual pieces.

lol I aint saying dont call it Gavin as Gavin's a good name and has reason...rather than 'tin boxer' or some other random name XD

btw Bulldog is a fine name...same as Wombat...lol I've heard engineers call it that...same reason as Gavin...in a situation its easier to call a name rather than numbers and letters XD
also, I have never heard of Gavin...the person, didn't know he were a general either; 'world famous' more like 'US famous' I'm afraid :(

Ahh; see, they DO have another name for it. it's a 'track', as in 'the track took a BM-59 and burned to the road wheels.'.

My take on this issue is that it proves how obsolete the concept of "labels" are, and that people take such trivial issues, that do not alter reality, too seriously.

Well I don't really nag at that name, I've only known it as the M113 APC though. Never saw the Gavin, thanks for furthering my education on the vehicle though :D

No sweat, AsherCat.
The M113 has been known by many other names;

- In Germany, it's been called the "Elephant on roller skates".

- The Swiss Army commonly calls it the "Bullion Cube".

- The Norwegian Army has called it the "Vietnam Dumpster" (though with Norway's decision to upgrade most of them --- combined with thier recent successes in Afghanistan --- they might have to think up a new name).

- The Viet Cong called it rge "Green Dragon".

- The Australian Army called it the "Bucket", and the M113 FSV, "The Beast". It's also known today as "The Bruce".

- The IDF officially named it the "Bardelas" (Hebrew for "Cheetah"), but IDF troops often called in the "Zelda" (an Israeli brand of Kerosene Lighters) during the Six Day War, due to it's unfortunate tendency to explode into an inferno (pre-'A1 models w/gasoline engines and totally-internal fuel). The name sort of stuck.

- US troops most often call the M113 the "Track" (a play on "Truck"). The M132 Self-Propelled Flamethrower is best known as the "Zippo".

- The Dutch call their YPR-765s (Dutch AIFVs) "Vacuum Cleaners" (for the sound of their engines), and "Cookie Jars".

So I guess people actually like the machine now(Back in Vietnam, the soldiers hated it do to, the armor and what an RPG could do o it)

hang on, whilst doing some research found that the gavin is a calvery machine...I mean, not for air bourne assault.... so why name it after a airbourne officer? rather than a calvery one?
http://home.comcast.net/~genericdad/m113gavin.html

No-one in the forces that operate the 113 really call it that O.o
Still, gavin can join the spectrum of names for the tin box ^^

That site is the subject of a little bit of investigative journalism you'll eventually see on my DA account.

When it's posted, you'll learn some VERY interesting facts that "genericdad" omits about the M113 Gavin, Lt. Mike Sparks, the Stryker... and himself.