Almost all of that isn't an actual opinion on war. Just on people who don't want to kill people for having a different idea..

It's a fact :P

This guy is from the days when racism was typical and totally accepted. He doesn't get the good judge of character award.
And who in the right mind would be patriotic to a country with boasts freedom so arrogantly while constantly restricting freedom at the same time? I love America because it's my home, but I'm not going to be patriotic until I see real progression.
As for the whole thing of people with nothing they're willing to fight for being miserable, that's just plain bullshit masked by emotive language. Having something you value more than yourself doesn't make you happy, and not having something you value more than yourself doesn't make you miserable. Besides, you can't enjoy having something more important than yourself if you're not alive. It's just ridiculous. >3

Make no mistake that if the US was invaded in a couple of years, I'd try to defend what I can, but I'm not gonna go killing people in foreign countries because of some extremist bastards. Life is precious and killing is wrong. Period. >3

[/opinionated_rant.midi]

1. Just because he's from a time of socially accepted racism doesn't mean he has anything to do with that. That's where the great figures of history come from. They decided what the norm was was wrong.

2. No real argument but I have no idea where you got the idea that patriotism was a big part of the quote.

3. HAVING NOTHING WORTH FIGHTING FOR. If you have nothing that you would fight to keep. As in if someone came into your house and started taking things or killing your family then you wouldn't think twice about fighting tom make them stop.

1. It does. He's saying that whoever's morals and patriotism are so degraded that they think nothing is worse than war is worse than war itself. If he's from a time where it was considered morally right to treat others like shit because of their skin, that's a good enough reason to me to ignore anything he says about morality. Same for patriotism, since he was a patriot to a racist nation.

2. He was using patriotism as leveridge. Get rid of the leveride, get rid of a lot of the force.

3. If somebody did that, I'd kick their ass. But here's the thing - NOBODY is taking ANYTHING from us. Tell me. What is the middle east TAKING from america by force?

1. WORTH war. WORTH. not WORSE. And don't talk to me about someone being judgemental if you're doing it yourself.

2. He mentions it. He does nothing further.

3. That has nothing to do with the discussion! I don't support the war either!

1. Oh, I don't judge. I'm even friends with a racist. I rip him for it every now and then, but I'm still friends with him. If I was as judgmental as you thought, I'd hate his guts.

2. That's why it's levridge, and not the whole argument.

3. Well, I thought you did support the war, so I thought you were trying to say the middle east was taking something from us in order to justify the war. My bad. >.>

1.You don't think saying somebody has no good morals based on the time period they're from is judging them?

2.

3. Ah. No, we went in to stop Saddam Hussein without any real plans to rebuild the system or get out of there. Basically it's almost pointless right now.

I didn't say he had no good morals at all, but for him to talk about other people's morality being degraded and decayed when he was most likely a racist is just ridiculous. There are still places that hang gay people for being gay. Would you listen to someone from one of those places if they said your morals were decayed and degraded? How about a judge from the Salem witch trials? How 'bout a Klan member? How 'bout a nazi?

Good point, but It's still a stereotype based on time periods.

Those aren't good examples. You're stating people that DO believe in those twisted things, not someone from the time period.

Unless this guy was from the north, I feel pretty confident in guessing that he was a racist.

That's what the quote is focusing on. It says nothing of invasion, and I totally agree with you that invading another country is pointless and killing to gain something is just plain sickening.

Main point of my argument: Don't try and debunk somebody's opinion if you don't know what they mean.

Saying we restrict freedoms is total crap, nowhere in America is gay marriage illegal, it is just something so newly socially accepted that it hasn't wormed it's way into the legal system yet. So the paperwork for gay marriage just doesn't exist in most states. You just have to give America time, you can't say you don't like America when the people in America anger you. You should fight for what the country stands for. You alone fighting makes change happen, not whining about the problems.

It's not just gay marriage. That's a big one, but it's not the only one.
Ever heard of Guantanamo bay? The freedom is so restricted there that the people there don't have any real basic rights. If I'm not mistaking, that's a restriction brought to you by America.

Or if you prefer something closer to home, how 'bout them drugs you're not allowed to put in your own body? How 'bout all them corrupt cops the government isn't working to get rid of? How 'bout them words you can't say on TV? How 'bout all them states where sodomy is illegal? How 'bout all them arbitrary little laws they have there for no reason other than for the sake of having laws? Yeah, none of that is restricting freedom at all.

I'm disgusted at the lack of progression, not just because of the lack, but because so many other countries have been able to progress without any problems. Don't forget that us white folk are from Europe, and Europe has had no problem. So if they've pulled it off just fine, why can't we?

And what does this country stand for, exactly?

Guantanamo bay: Because people bent on destroying our country deserve everything in the world. They have food, shelter, and even an arrow that points to mecca so they can pray. That's more than they deserve.

Drugs: Outlawing poison isn't that terrible of a thing. The only reason I think we should make pot legal is so we can tax the shit out of it. People don't need drugs. People that think they do are weak.

Corrupt cops?: Because nowhere else in the world are people drunk with power. Saying this is just plain ignorant. And how do you "Test" if a cop is corrupt unless they actually do something people can see? And how can you tell if someone is telling the truth or lying just to get off the hook? There is WAY too many questions to be asked for you to just go around and put every officer under investigation, that's just stupid.

Words you can't say on TV?: If there is a program where you need to say fuck, it's properly rated. You can say whatever you want on TV.

Sodomy: Like anyone enforces those laws unless people want others prosecuted for them... come on... in VA it's illegal to have sex with the lights on. How many people follow that law you think?

You sound like you are freaking talking about anarchy, laws are essential for keeping people safe from others and themselves. If everyone in America was intelligent, you wouldn't need to outlaw pot because people would use it responsibly. You can't just do away with all laws that restrict people, saying so is just stupid.

In every country that has progressed like you say so, how many religions are there? How big is the population? How are the demographics? Be honest, the size of the United States makes it very hard for EVERYONE to agree on ANYTHING. That's why socialism works so well in Sweden, because everyone is in such a tight knit demographic.

In America we have every race, every political party, every religion, never, will everyone agree. Ever. That's just the way it goes. Over time, people will accept things more and more, but because of our size, it WILL take longer.

Guantanamo bay:
A place where they don't even give you so much as a trial and don't need any evidence at all to take you. Someone just has to say 'this person is a threat to the country', and there they are. Not to mention that these people (including the innocent ones (most likely the majority)) were tortured daily until recently. Tortured by this 'civilized' country. A quick recap: Innocent people.. being tortured.. daily.

Drugs: Actually, it is. Because like it or not there are always going to be people out there who think they need it. And they'll do anything to get it. It leads to gangs funded by drugs, which leads to drug wars and violence. Drugs aren't the cause of the violence. The drug laws are. Back when alcohol was illegal, there were alcohol-funded gangs. People were getting killed just like they are now.. over alcohol. And as soon as they legalized it, the crime rates went WAY down. Legalize the drugs, and people can buy them if they want. The government can tax a bunch for them, and the drug gangs are gone. And much like with alcohol, not everybody is going to instantly be addicted (apart from something like heroin, but hey, nicotine is addictive too).

Corrupt cops: They seem to be finding and sacking corrupt cops every day here. Because over here, they don't assume the authorities must be the good guys. Plus there's a bunch of security cameras here, which helps find the corrupt cops. And it's not about checking EVERY cop. It's about listening to every newly arrested person. Asking them what happened, giving them a chance to speak like a person. If a pattern emerges that more 'criminals' think they were treated wrongly by one cop than others, you monitor and survey him. If he steps out of line, he's sacked for mal-practice. It works just fine here, so there's no reason it shouldn't work in America.

Words you can't say on TV: But you can't say what you want when you want. I've never seen 'fuck', or any other curse words on TV before at least dusk. And why? Because a kid might see it? Well isn't it the parents' job to make sure their kid doesn't hear it? Isn't it the parents' job to make sure their kid doesn't go on Comedy Central and see Chris Rock repeatedly saying the N word? And even if it shouldn't be the parents' responsibilities to make sure their kids don't hear those words, it's DEFINITELY their responsibility to teach the kid that it's 'wrong' to curse.

Sodomy: Then why would they have a law they don't plan to enforce? If the possibility is there that two guys can be arrested for making love, don't you think that possibility should be taken away? How'd you like it if your curtain didn't perfectly seal off the view from your room while you were going at it with another guy and some religious fundamentalist accidentally caught a glimpse and tried to prosecute you? You'd think it was fucking retarded, because it is just that. The fact that people can press charges against other people for gay sex is just ridiculous. It's not exactly rape, or anything that's actually bad.

And no, I think anarchy is freaking stupid. Sure, there needs to be some laws here and there to protect people, but if it's a pointless and/or harmful law, it shouldn't be there. A lot of laws are there for a reason, and I'm not denying that. For example, I don't think you should get to assault a random person, because that's unfair. And sure, that's not total freedom, but I didn't say I wanted total and absolute freedom. I just said I'm not going to be a patriot to a country that boasts freedom when they restrict it. Every country restricts freedom to at least some degree, and that's not all bad. It's simply that the country boasts its freedom while simultaneously restricting it. If America was the freest nation, then I could probably get behind it. But until that happens, no way in hell.

Well, my internet can't seem to access google right now, so I'll just tell you what I do know about the UK, which is a fair bit more progressive.
The population isn't actually too much smaller than that of the US. I figured it'd be like a 40th of the size, but it's actually around 2/3 or so. Out of that I'd say the majority of people are atheists, but there's also plenty of Muslims and Christians. Judaism is kind of rare here. You also got your basic fringe religious groups like Pagans, Wiccans, Buddhists, even freaking Jedi (yes.. Jedi. It's an actual religion now.). Oh, and there's also some cults, including $cientology. Sorry I can't give you actual figures right now, but I'd say on the whole Britain is a pretty diverse crowd. Especially around major cities.

But not everyone is going to agree on one thing, no matter what country you're in. Just like you can round up 10 random people off the streets. They're not all going to be conservative, liberal, anarchist or whatever.

And I know the nation will progress.. eventually, but until I see some real progression, I can't be a patriot. I can't be proud of my country.

Added note:
That was the longest comment I've ever left here. Or anywhere, for that matter. I love FA's lack of character limit so much.. x3

x3 in England, the only kind of conservative is a liberal conservative.

I think it's a little silly to use the excuse that we have too many stupid laws as a reason to not be proud of the country. x3

Nothing is perfect. You have to accept imperfections for what they really are. Government is art, and it's impossible to make it perfect when the human element is involved.

Hell, in my opinion, there should be no tax but the sales tax, and there should be no government involvement other than protecting the people. If that means eliminating a foreign threat, so be it. Other than that, everything should be regulated by the people.

True Capitalism :3

It's not so much that we have them, it's more that they're not being scrapped. And what's even more is that they boast freedom without even being the freest country. If a country boasts its freedom, you're gonna expect it to be the freest. Especially when no other countries do it.

In my opinion, you should be taxed %50 if you're earning over $200,000 a year. I mean, yeah, you earned it, but nobody should ever NEED to have over $100,000 a year unless they have a bunch of kids. Keeping that much more than you really need is just selfish. x3

That is awful, people who are lazy and live off welfare should get off their asses, go to school, and make $200,000 a year like those who actually try at life.

You should always reap what you sew. If it's your prerogative to drop out of high school, enjoy your miserable life. If you choose to bear through 10 years of college to become a neurosurgeon, then enjoy your ridiculously long hours and the amount of money you make for that.

It's all about self initiative. If I can make plenty to live by doing nothing, why should I try to do anything. I'll be content doing nothing.

A homeless person isn't going to get a job. Nobody wants a dirty hobo working for them. Doesn't matter how hard he's willing to work if nobody wants him working for them. Sure, he could probably pester people's houses until somebody lets him mowe their lawn for 5 bucks. But it won't be long until someone calls the police and he gets moved on.
And a capitalist government can't do anything for the homeless even if they want to. They don't have the money. :T
So unless they want to write award-winning stories on napkins in a Café, they're basically screwed under a capitalist government. With a liberal government, they can get basic housing with basic food and basic hygiene. And sure, they could do nothing, but the amount that actually don't do anything is going to be minuscule. You might be content doing nothing for a while, but you won't have any spare cash to do anything good. You won't have any fun. You'll be suicidally bored and you'll want to get a job. You'll want to live better, and you'll at least have a slight chance of making something of yourself. It's still hard, but at least you can.

One person who's bitter about having half of his 200 grand taken away < a dozen people who have a glimmer of hope and can have a basic living rather than begging on the streets until they die. With no dignity.

And no, not all homeless people are homeless because they didn't try. Actually, I'd be pretty confident saying that a lot of them did.

And yes, I know there are people who were dead broke but managed to come into a decent living, and I know your family is one of them, but trying hard doesn't mean you're going to get a good living in the end. And having a good living doesn't mean you tried either.

That's total crap, there are shelters everywhere where you can shower, and if he begs on the street and gets about five bucks, he can afford a razor and some deoderant. No matter what ratty cloths you have when you walk into McDonalds, it doesn't matter because they give you a uniform anyway. My mother worked as a manager for McDonalds for five years and hired around four homeless people... being that only four homeless people applied. The fact of the matter is they don't apply themselves.

And speaking of being a "free country", if someone should have the right to ingest poison, why doesn't the same person have a right to spend the money he earns? A right to reap the benifits of the job he trained for? You're being hypocritical.

You're also taking this as if every person is a good person. It's not One bitter man with 200 grand taken away and a dozen people with food in their stomachs, it's one bitter man with 200 grand taken away and two people with food in their stomachs, eight people who spend the money irresponsibly, and two people that sell food stamps for drugs.

I was at Target the other day and watched someone exchange 100$ of food stamps for monsters, pepsi, honey buns, little debbies cakes, ice cream, and a couple loafs of bread.

How sick is that.

Your idea is perfect in a world where everyone is intelligent and good mannered, but sadly that is not how the world works. In the real world the only way is the tough love way.

People already do have the right to ingest poison, but not the right to spend everything he earns. I didn't say I was getting rid of any hypocrisy, just altering it. And if you want there to be no tax but sales tax so you're free to spend every little thing you earn, but no freedom to ingest what you want, that's every little bit as hypocritical. If not moreso. At least tax goes back into the community and helps everybody. Well, almost. I mean, the government is still spending more money on war every year than it would take to feed and educate the hungry of the world many times over. Because, y'know, war is that important.

And you're taking this as if EVERYBODY who doesn't have any cash is a stupid, terrible person who could have prevented themselves from getting into a situation SO easily. And it's not even about whether or not they could have prevented themselves from being broke, it's that they're suffering. Here. Now. Today. And if you don't want them to do it again, you make it abundantly clear that they're not getting any help next time.

Because most people who are relatively wealthy don't do drugs because they know it's dumb ;I so it's not like they care they can't smoke pot, or sniff some crack to kill themselves a little more. And tax goes to a lot of things, not just the community and war. The fact of the matter is, if we never had war, we probably wouldn't have progressed as far as we have. You know how African Americans started being looked upon as equals by a greater portion of the nation? When they marched side by side as AMERICANS during world war 1 and 2. They were equals, brothers in arms.

Same thing with women, when the men went to war and the women picked up the jobs the men left behind, a great deal of respect was shown toward them.

Most people who are homeless and can't make any money have little to no education, or, they made bad choices that lead them there in the first place.

Also, giving them a bunch of money isn't going to help them out of their situation at all. Give them information. That's all they need. If they are too lazy to take that information and use it, they deserve to be in the situation they are in.

Ok, some random hobo has nothing but the cloths on his back.

Step 1: Tell him where free GED studying programs are.
Step 2: Go to the Town Hall and get himself a Social Security card and copy of his birth certificate.
Step 3: Get his GED.
Step 4: Take out a loan and go to a Community College, rent an apartment for the time being. (OR, go into the military and go FREE, and get housing FREE)
Step 5: After two years, transfer to a real College or University to complete your bachelors, living on campus.
Step 6: Get a job (Easy if you have military experience, also easy if you planned your degree and didn't choose something stupid like "Philosophy")
Step 7: Pay back debts, or if you went into the military, earn your check.

ANY HOMELESS PERSON can do this. ANY of them. Period. There is no excuse for not being able to. At all.

Black people weren't equals in the army in the world wars. They were basically just human shields. If they were equal, there wouldn't have been any segregation at that point. But guess what, segregation stayed for decades to come. The white people would always claim 'Separate but equal', but that's just out right bullshit. If there was any equality, protesting blacks wouldn't have been hosed and attacked by police dogs while whites remained untouched. And even now there's not much in the way of racial equality. If there was, Obama wouldn't have been looked at by the media like he was during the election. All the right wingers wouldn't have kept saying shit like "What do we really know about Barack Obama?" despite the fact that everybody knew he even smoked weed when he was younger. Never seen a white presidential candidate get that shit. And call be crazy, but I say that's no coincidence.

So yeah, we still haven't even totally progressed past racism and racial profiling. And the progress we have made on that is because people had to fight for it when they shouldn't have had to in the first place.

And.. a bunch of money? Seriously? A bunch? It's not like you'd be giving every individual homeless person a three bedroom house with a pool. They'd be living in dorms. With community bathrooms. And basic foods like soup and bread. Not a lot, just enough to get them on their feet so they can sleep without fear of being beaten to a pulp by crack heads, not go 2 days between meals (read: scraps), and not smell like shit all the time.

I think you missed a few things in your steps. Namely cleaning up the hobo, getting him an address and phone number where he can be reached, and getting him some damn food. Now I don't know for sure since I don't live there, but I'm gonna guess you need to do the first two before the hobo can do so much as get his GED.

No homeless person can do all that with at least some initial aid. It's about helping people help themselves. You can't learn to walk if nobody helps you.

You can clean yourself up at a shelter, they have public showers. And you don't need an address or a phone number to join the military. Hell you don't even need to be clean to join the military.

To be frank, there is no excuse for anyone being poor unless you're old or have a dire illness. :I

The military pretty much solves everything if you do it right.

Food, board, education, everything.

Let's not forget killing innocents. The military lets you do plenty of that too.

And how many shelters are there? Honestly, I've never even seen one, and I sure as hell wouldn't know how to find one without google. How can a hobo contact the military to sign up? He doesn't have a phone, a computer, an address book, anything. What's he gonna do? Will himself to the nearest bootcamp? Sorry, but it's not as simple as "Hay I r money no haz so ile be teh join teh military. *poof* Here I are sarge! =D".

Oh god. War is war, and when there is an enemy that disguises like innocents, it's impossible to be correct 100% of the time. The military doesn't LET you kill civilians.

They are everywhere. Especially in big cities. Go to the nearest recruitment center? You can ask anyone on the streets where it is. Or you can take a bus. You're taken to bootcamp by the recruiter.

And it kinda is :O you obviously have no idea how it works... the military MAKES it simple.

The military does let you kill civilians. All you have to do is plant something on them afterwards and say you thought they were a threat. If that. Have you seen how some soldiers have been acting? There's a video I'm pretty sure you've seen of some troops on a jeep or something, and they've got a bottle of water. They're in the middle of a town, so they decide to get some kids' attention and then they drive down the road for like a mile with kids chasing after them for water. They eventually let one kid have it after so many others had given it up.
So yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if there were more than a few soldiers killing random people for no reason. Maybe it's literally just a couple, but no matter how many soldiers I'm sure there's some who do.

*Laughing fit*
Sorry, something really funny just happened. I can't be serious right now.. xD

Still love ya, btw. Civil debate agreed? =3
*hug*

x3 I love arguing, so of course! I don't get mad like some people in these debates.

*super hug*