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Hatred of the Successful in the Furry Community?
8 years ago
I'm writing this journal based on a tweet I just sent out ( https://twitter.com/Boneitis/status.....41165889687552 ) that got some pretty interesting responses. Sadly it's a tweet so there isn't a lot of room for nuance, speculation, context, etc... so I figured I'd pose the question here with some of my own thoughts, and also give people a chance to respond in greater detail than twitter allows. Here's what I asked:
"Serious question: why do so many high profile furry artists hide how much they're making on Patreon? I figured it would be a point of pride!"
If you'd just like to respond to that feel free to skip the rest of this. If you'd like to hear my thoughts about this odd trend in behavior amongst the "Furry Elite" read on.
I'm a businessman, I do not hide that fact whatsoever. I like business, it's an art unto its own. I do what I do full time and live comfortably off of it but, like all men, I always want to improve my standing in life to the absolute maximum of my abilities. In trying to do so I often look at what other more successful artists are doing and take away what I can from them. With the game changer that is Patreon I often find myself reading through the Patreons of furry artists that have obscenely large followings and try to figure out some of their strategies and if they could work for me. These artists are clearly doing a lot of things right and I'd be a fool to ignore that. However, during my many perusings I've noticed that a fairly large amount (in my estimation the majority even) of highly sought after furry artists hide the dollar amount they are making. I find this very odd as I figured it would be a point of pride, a way to advertise to others how successful one is. If you're making a lot of money on Patreon you're clearly a talent that people are invested in so why not advertise "Hey people say I'm worth this much!"
To my knowledge Patreon doesn't allow people to hide the number of active Patrons they have but many of these artists have hundreds of Patrons, even thousands in some cases. To further muddle things I've noticed that this trend seems fairly exclusive to furries, as many comedians and podcasters I follow on Patreon leave the amount they are making up and in a lot of cases point to it as a source of pride. I realize that it IS unusual to tell people how much money you make at most jobs but in the age of Kickstarter and Patreon there seems to be a more fluid attitude towards that set of particular social norms.
I posited this question on Twitter and got a number of responses that were all over the place. I named this journal as I did because it was what I ended up leaning towards: do furries have a love/hate relationship with the artists they follow? If you happen to BE a very successful furry artist who hides that dollar amount: why do you do it personally? Or if you KNOW someone who fits that description point them towards this journal. Why do furry artists seem to hide how much they make on Patreon more than others? Am I completely misreading things? Please sound off in the comments! I think this is really interesting stuff and would love to hear your thoughts!
-Bone
"Serious question: why do so many high profile furry artists hide how much they're making on Patreon? I figured it would be a point of pride!"
If you'd just like to respond to that feel free to skip the rest of this. If you'd like to hear my thoughts about this odd trend in behavior amongst the "Furry Elite" read on.
I'm a businessman, I do not hide that fact whatsoever. I like business, it's an art unto its own. I do what I do full time and live comfortably off of it but, like all men, I always want to improve my standing in life to the absolute maximum of my abilities. In trying to do so I often look at what other more successful artists are doing and take away what I can from them. With the game changer that is Patreon I often find myself reading through the Patreons of furry artists that have obscenely large followings and try to figure out some of their strategies and if they could work for me. These artists are clearly doing a lot of things right and I'd be a fool to ignore that. However, during my many perusings I've noticed that a fairly large amount (in my estimation the majority even) of highly sought after furry artists hide the dollar amount they are making. I find this very odd as I figured it would be a point of pride, a way to advertise to others how successful one is. If you're making a lot of money on Patreon you're clearly a talent that people are invested in so why not advertise "Hey people say I'm worth this much!"
To my knowledge Patreon doesn't allow people to hide the number of active Patrons they have but many of these artists have hundreds of Patrons, even thousands in some cases. To further muddle things I've noticed that this trend seems fairly exclusive to furries, as many comedians and podcasters I follow on Patreon leave the amount they are making up and in a lot of cases point to it as a source of pride. I realize that it IS unusual to tell people how much money you make at most jobs but in the age of Kickstarter and Patreon there seems to be a more fluid attitude towards that set of particular social norms.
I posited this question on Twitter and got a number of responses that were all over the place. I named this journal as I did because it was what I ended up leaning towards: do furries have a love/hate relationship with the artists they follow? If you happen to BE a very successful furry artist who hides that dollar amount: why do you do it personally? Or if you KNOW someone who fits that description point them towards this journal. Why do furry artists seem to hide how much they make on Patreon more than others? Am I completely misreading things? Please sound off in the comments! I think this is really interesting stuff and would love to hear your thoughts!
-Bone
Speaking of what I have personally witnessed, the fandom is "spoiled" when it comes to art. There is a large number of people in the fandom that are pretty talented when it comes to producing art, and thanks to sites like FA a fair amount of art gets posted for free. Of course over time these artists start getting better, and some of them come to the conclusion that they can make a living off of this. However up till now most of that still got publicly posted. In effect, sure someone paid for it but it was freely available to everyone. (This is complicated by the fact that many furry commissions are actually remarkably cheap, considering it is custom art—with some artists keeping their prices low because they either feel they would not be commissioned otherwise or because they believe their talent isn't good enough to ask for a higher price, resulting in lower prices across the board).
Pateron changes things a lot though. In just the most basic sense it changes the artist's relationship with those who are members of their pateron, so it isn't quite a fan/creator relationship now so much as they are now "working" for those who are contributing to their pateron. So that adds a new dynamic right there.
There is also the matter that Pateron funding levels mean there is pretty much always going to be content that releases to Pateron only, or Pateron far in advance. And when you compare that to the past dynamic (where the artist was posting art for free), I suspect that there are many individuals who resent this new gate keeping of the stuff they wish to view.
In effect, the way things have been done has created this sort of entitlement in parts of the fandom, where people are upset by many moves artists may make in an effort to support themselves with their art.
That is all just my opinion though (obviously).
me too! https://pridetechdesign.com
furries get 15% off :D
Stacking this self-depreciating attitude with the artist's dilemma of never being good enough as those you idolize, it can become a bit of a predicament.
In the event of those who aren't artists, it can be due to the fashion in which that their lives are not as successful; Marred with setbacks and the flagging will to fight for their future, the success of others can make an individual envious, resentful, or downright hostile towards another as a result.
There's also the issue of people who just don't understand the person's motivations for their actions. Feeling so detached from that, or even watching the artist they idolize become further and further out of their price range can turn things sour rather quickly.
Also, many in the subculture, heck, many in general, if there is a way of making lots of money with little effort they will take that.
So, there are quite a few folks who are popular who do take advantage of that for the purposes of money and sex. It happens.
And, hiding the total amount you make kinda makes it seem like the individual wants to hide that fact for a few reasons. One, a lot of folks don't understand how much it costs to live (including taxes and things like that) and they will get some bad responses from folks who are... foolish as to life. Two, a lot of folks want to take advantage of others would want the total money hidden.
So, it is a little bit of everything really. Depends on the person and the situation.
a) they don't want to be judged, so-to-say, on their dollar worth
b) they don't want their fanbase to be jealous of how much they make
Many furries seem to be more of the "lurker and amateur artist" type, as well as young and lacking in money, so seeing how much an artist makes could deter them. Although I do fit in that category, I don't think it would, but some people want to be extra-safe.
As far as advertising how much money you're earning on Patreon though, I feel that flaunting the income you're making in public is unnecessary and tasteless. It's no-one else's business (aside from the tax department) how much money I make with my regular salary, and I don't go plastering it about in public - so why should I do it on Patreon (if I had one)? As far as people seeing "I'm worth this much!", well they would see that for the rates being charged for work / Patreon levels already. All I can see from flaunting one's income level on the Internet is the probability of being on the receiving end of begging letters for cash as a result...
I guess I'm an old-fashioned Gen-X'er in that regard.
You know who the most successful writer to come out of furry fandom? Take a guess.
Now, unless you guessed me, you guessed wrong. But I'm not one of the 'cool kids' and I don't have the correct kind of politics, so I'm pretty much ignored. I too treat my writing like a business, and I do this for a living full time. But after it came out at a con just how well I was doing compared to all of the other writers, well, there was a little bit of a backlash.
And when I shared my financials and sales figures one year with a bunch of other writers (because one was bragging)? Oh yeah, that didn't go over well at all. So yeah, stopped offering help and advice as it was made clear it wasn't appreciated. Those of use who would rather mimic success than attack it are apparently quite rare.
In regular scifi fandom I have a pretty decent sized set of fans for an independent author, so my sales numbers and income are actually in the top 20 percent of all scifi writers worldwide. (Which isn't as much as it may sound, though it's enough to pay the bills, even in California). I haven't made it up to a six figure income, but I'm more than halfway there, and that's about all I'll say on that these days (cause I think I've learned my lesson). But I sell tens of thousands of copies a year. I also work 12 hour plus days, most weekends, and I don't get holidays or vacation days.
I hang out here, still, because I have a lot of friends here still. I've been in the fandom since the 80's. I used to know -everybody- and a lot of people knew me. I ran a very popular online establishment for a number of years. I raised and worked with exotic animals. I hung out with a lot of the name artists, used to have them come up and visit, or I'd crash at their place when I was in town.
Also there are some artists whose work I really like to see that are on here. You're one of them btw.
So like I said a few artists have tainted Patreon and made it a villain in the eyes of a few. That's what I think the reason most artists don't brag about their Patreon, they fear attracting the haters. That's just my look at it.
I have my reservations on the service that I will not vent here.
Some people like to feel elite, being in an 'underground' or small fan following gives them a sense of privilege. An actual psychology explanation would be fascinating.
Judging by how many times I see this happen in the fandom just from commission inquiries, I'd expect the same for Patreon. If someone were to show that they were making a few thousand dollars, harassers would throw an absolute fit. Remember, these are people who freak out over an artist asking for literally any dollar amount. They want your art SO bad that they're willing to literally freak out, but for some reason they can't bring themselves to pay a dime.
Sadly, these kinds of furries are very numerous, and though most are just one-time offenders who leave after one tantrum, some just. don't. stop. These people will message you on every social media account you have, and when you've blocked them on every last one they'll try to go through other people, your friends, and even your family, to get to you. They're like sharks that smelled blood once and just won't let it go.
So, for most artists, I don't think they're hoping to hide their income or that they don't want to be prideful in their work. If anything I think they'd really like to be more transparent and free. I think they're just protecting themselves from an unfortunate group of furries who ruin things for everyone else.
I've seen furry artists and regular artists hide their amounts on Patreon. Another reason I do it is because I don't want family (if they do look at my page) to know how much I'm making, because it's for me to enjoy. Not saying I wouldn't tell them but still. And putting your amount on display can sometimes lead people astray from your page if you're not paid enough or bring people to read your entire page and more if your amount is in the thousands or so.
I'm also researching ways to make my writing a better business though and I may be coming close to a breakthrough on a project I'm working on.
Also, thanks again for answering some of my patreon questions a while back, still appreciated.
I have a good handful of friends that are artists for a living and the income made from commissions pays their bills, gets groceries, etc...people are so ungrateful it's not even funny.
As for Patreon itself, I've seen these same types of people despise the site for the idea of artists making money in even just decent amounts, and because of paywalls, so they cannot just easily access artwork they either just want to oogle at or fap to, now there's a complication to these people (lol life's so bad, right?) so they complain. They want free, they want instant access to artist's artwork. But the majority of these people would probably never, EVER support an artist with a commission or even just tips.
He was referring to my absolute cheapest badge, which costs $15. Anything higher than that was, apparently, "outrageously over priced".
A: "Help me out! :3"
B: "How can I hold all this fan-money? :3c"
When people hide their earnings, it seems to me as though they're perfectly aware that they're B, and yet wish to keep the innocense and sympathy magnets of A. It's a business strategy in of itself.
Patreon was advertised as a system that helps you "support" your creators, not becoming their monthly "customer" - and some people lean towards one side or the other.
I'm on the side of "Support".
Of course, I get a few benefits out of supporting you, but it's rarely anything unique - some .psd files, some livestreams, a discount on commissions, maybe a sticker or two - but that's just that.
And some creators really drive home the fact that "it's their job" and you're "buying goods", which is only half true - since most of these things would be released for free ANYWAY regardless of my participation in this money throwing party.
So, technically, I'm their possible-future pseudo-mini-employer - and as such, I'm asking for a small favour: Show me how much you're already earning, so I might better decide whether or not I should contribute to your endeavours (and get that sick .psd file and a monthly shout-out, oh boy).
When we go to a coffee shop to buy a cup'o'snugs, we're not going to ask the workers about their wages before making our purchase. Yet, if I'm going there to, say, become a business partner or contributor, I'd talk to the manager, and probably even ask about their cash-flow.
Patreon is on this quirky line between support center and business avenue. It's both. And it takes a certain degree of humility to see yourself as what some artists truly are - partially unemployed "freelancerz". Bound only to their reputation and goodwill of fans - nothing more.
If only this were true. Not of you, of course, I've always been impressed with what you've been through and done with yourself. I know far too many people to which this statement does not apply.
As far as hiding how much you make goes, it's a delicate balance. I am no freelance artist but I have been coached to, in general, hide how much I make. Certain kinds of people will flock to those that have wealth of any kind, perceived or otherwise, and ask for money because they are in a tough spot, or believe that life is simply unfair and they deserved money too... regardless of what they have done. How valid that is is debatable, but I've certainly run into such mentalities quite a few times already. I would absolutely love to talk about the improvements in the money I've been making, partially because I'm amazing and, I suppose, partially because I'm proud of where I've gotten. Money can break relationships of any kind, and sadly many people I've believed my friends have screwed me in financial matters - partially because they don't really want to have to apply themselves to the maximum of their ability. Having listened to people complain about having to work when they're working 20 hours a week kind of wore on me.
Admittedly this has nothing to do with Patreon... but I think this applies maybe? Sorry :x
And I generally don't tell people how much I make at cons because I have been told the following:
"You're not good enough to make that much"
"You don't have enough pageviews"
"*crying*"
A lot of artists opt to, instead of learn from successful artists, resent them.
'And I generally don't tell people how much I make at cons because I have been told the following:
"You're not good enough to make that much"
"You don't have enough pageviews"
"*crying*"'
I don't have a patreon yet, but I would show the dollar amount, and I try to be very open about how much I make at cons, mostly to help newer artists out about how much is possible, like my first time selling I had absolutely zero idea how much I should expect to make, and I know everyone is different, but it's seemed to help, and it's helped me with the people who have been sharing with me now that I'm a little more seasoned about where I stand in the pack.
I can certainly understand why people wouldn't share that information though, there's a lot of weird norms about money even on the internet.
Anyway that is another discussion altogether so...
One possible reason I could see for people hiding their total is it may dissuade people from supporting if they feel the artist already has enough support. Like if someone is already making a decent monthly income from the service, do I really need to give them more? I could see a lot of people thinking along those lines ( probably because I admittedly would). Especially if the patron rewards are not all that enticing.
Whereas if you don't know exactly how much someone is making you might be more inclined to chip a few bucks thinking you're helping a struggling artist.
I am a semi-successful artist who hides their monthly earnings! I am NOT a furry artist. I make a webcomic that people tend to enjoy reading. Those are my credentials.
This isn't just a furry-specific thing, actually! Lots of webcomic artists also hide their earnings on Patreon. I do it for a few reason:
1. I'm a private person! I don't want people to know where I live, what I think about most popular media, or how much money I make in a year.
2. Personally, I'd rather not use my earnings as a selling point. I'd like people to pledge to my art purely because they enjoy it, and not have how much I do or do not make factor into that decision.
3. I don't want to deal with comparing my earnings to others' or vice versa. Obviously it's helpful to see who's doing what successfully, but I tend to judge success based on how much a person's art or message appeals to me personally, so I don't think monetary earnings necessarily need to factor into that (plus you can usually TELL when somebody is doing it right and gettin the big bucks). AKA: NOBODY CAN GET JEALOUS IF NOBODY KNOWS WHAT ANYBODY ELSE IS MAKING.
So anyways, in summary: I'm a private person who likes to focus on my own work and success. Hiding my earnings (and having other people hide theirs) makes it easier to keep focused. Easy-peasy.
(READ MY WEBCOMIC: www.sakana-comic.com)
Just to be clear. I'm not an artist. This is just my opinion.
:3 <3~
Just makes me roll my eyes most of the time, and then I move on. This stuff is supposed to be fun.
In the end the reason why I struggle to make a name for myself is because I don't draw often enough and I don't commission my own characters very often. So I don't get my characters and art out there enough to get my art seen. I don't see drawing as a business for myself and more so of a hobby which is why my work isn't really scene by very many. It's not taken NEARLY as serious as you or many other artists that are popular in the fandom.