FA+
Shop
"We support artists, as long as we can afford them."
6 years ago
General
People say they Support Artists and want them to Be Successful.
That is until said Artist is no longer within their price range (affordability).
Then instead they ridicule said Artist for their success and protest by saying they'll go Support someone they "CAN" afford with equal or better artwork.
They say this while completely dismissing the notion that that Artists Name and Reputation is part of why said artwork is priced as it is.
This feels quite hypocritical to the idea of the Fandom being an open and welcoming place.
So it's really no surprise why some of the more Talented and Successful artists move on from the fandom once they reach a certain point.
Why remain in a fandom where people think you're too Successful to stand behind.
Like many of us in the fandom I am far from wealthy. But that is not a justification to go to an artists place of business (submissions/journals/etc.) and scream at them
"Don't you know how unwealthy I am, this is unacceptable." To me that just sounds like Greed and Selfishness towards the hard work that Artists struggle to provide.
Anyhow those are just one lizards Idle Thoughts.
*mlem mlem blep*
~Drayk
.
..
...
Like I said, it mainly comes down to the envy of the outsiders.
Besides, speaking of brands. Sure, brands like Guchi might make quality stuff, but it doesnt change the fact that charging thousands of $ for a simple plain white Tshirt or 300$ for a pair of black cotton socks just because of the popularity of the brand they carry is plain idiotic.
Dont forget it demotivates other artists aswell. An artist out there might make a complex detailed original pic that they spent weeks working on, and then feel defeated and depressed when a relatively simple and basic in execution picture gets sold for tons just because of the popularity. It negatively affects the whole industry.
I'm not sure I agree about the demotivation/popularity aspect however.
Cause if you think about it alot of what justifies people into buying some of the higher quality art is in some part due to the popularity of the artist. Alot of artists simply will not make above a certain dollar value until they reach some sort of popularity because that popularity is what over time brings in an audience. An unpopular artist with little to no watcherbase is going to have a very difficult time selling anything regardless of the quality.
I do agree though in a sense that seeing popular artists getting away with selling much simpler images for a good dollar amount might seem demotivating to some extent, but there are alot of variables that come into play around alot of the issue such as the styles that different artists have. Some artists simply just have much simpler art styles to them which in tandem are very popular to wider audiences to boot.
No one ever talks about that, and I know first-hand that SO MUCH of the effort behind artwork goes unnoticed. You don't see the sketches, the value comps, the color comps, the underpainting, the edits... All you see is the final brush strokes on the canvas. Literally and metaphorically.
And more than all that? They were consistent with putting out work. When I'm consistent with my output, I get work. When I'm not? It dries up. Consistency is key.
And I'm willing to bet the same people who have the mindset to complain directly to an artist about their increasing prices aren't that far in their own careers for the above-mentioned reasons.
If you want to charge 6k for a solo commission, and someone's willing to pay for that and have some freedom over what they get back, go for it. You want to charge thousands of dollars for a pre-drawn pose, which looks only marginally different from your last dozen pre-drawn poses? Fuck off.
If not enough people are willing to pay for something, then the price will change. However if the opposite is true, then the artist has no real reason to justify dropping prices, afterall this is their livelihood and we should all feel the right to charge what people are willing to pay for our services.
And since artists aren't Production Facilities that can be extended or built upon there is a very heavy focus on what you just said about Hours spent on art pieces. For some artists if not many I'd suggest having artwork as a supplemental income instead of a primary one until the audience the artist has created for themselves begins to tip the scales of what the artist is able to earn hourly for their work. I'm not surprised you're getting burned out though. It seems like the first several years of being a fandom artist is a gamble to see who is able to achieve many variables.
This is true, many of those starving artists are just not well known and do not have much demand for their supply.
"The artist's name should NEVER be part of the price."
Why would you not charge for something that people are willing to pay extra for? Have you ever heard of "Trophy Commissioners" there are commissioners out there that place such a high value on the name of an artist that merely commissioning them is like fulfilling part of a collection. Artists know this and it makes sense for them to put a price on their own name because they know that their customers place a value on it. Now wether or not the artist and commissioner agree on that value is another story.
"pricing yourself on your name and not giving back to the community means you do not value it at all except as customers. That's antithetical to furry."
How exactly are artists supposed to give back to the community? What exactly are they TAKING from the community in the first place. Artists are business people who created a product in exchange for money.
Do commissioners give to the community?
When you take $5000 from the community, >>You Take $5000 From The Community<<. Your $5000 worth of labor is inefficient compared to what others would make for $5000, and most of that money can go to an artist who isn't you. There's a big pool of spending money that the furry community collectively has, and when you take more than you need, it negatively impacts others.
Also that 5000$ doesn't BELONG to the community, it belongs to that one customer and if they didn't spend it on that one single artist whose to say they would of spent it in the community otherwise. The vast majority of people don't set aside money to spend on "FURRY" art, they set it aside to spend it on a particular Artist. And if they don't find that artist that appeals to them they may very well just go out and buy a video game or go out to the movie theatre instead.
No one Takes more than they need, they're are given based on what people are willing to Pay them for their services.
I don't know what kind of system you think we should have in place but it feels like the one you want would treat every artist like face-less, soul-less, art dispensing machines that are only allowed to charge a certain amount regardless of their individuality. And that sounds nothing like Community.
I'm not talking about property rights, I'm not saying the community has a right to five thousand dollars. I'm saying that this money exists as part of the community assets, even though it hasn't been transferred yet. The people who are buying these commissions aren't buying them because they're going to look one hundred times as good, or even better than, what other artists can do. They are buying them because of the prestige attached. You said it yourself. That is a problem, in the character of the artists who choose to do it, in the character of the person who buys it for bragging rights, and in the community that lets it slip. Without prestige pricing, the commissioners would still get the art they want and have more left over, and more importantly, other artists would get money too. Surely nobody has just one artist they want to commission from. If you're so adamant about price democracy, just let people do auctions. Nobody's complaining about auctions. At least then the only person responsible for the price being what it is is the winner of the auction, and there isn't the illusion of it being worth a hefty sum to anybody but that person.
The system we should have is people taking a seat and being respectful of other artists and their customers AS WELL AS their own needs when they put up prices like most artists already do.
And there's nothing wrong with prestige. That's something that artists have earned through their own reputation. To say that such things should not be a factor just goes against the human nature of attributing value to such traits. Have you ever shopped one place and not the other because of things you've heard about that business apart from their product such as the customer service or their inherent store policies? And when it comes to ART, it is indeed a luxury, people don't need it. But they buy it regardless. Honestly if it weren't for that Prestige, many artists would be struggling because no one would be willing to pay beyond a certain standard. Artists in this fandom exist on a spectrum from either being able to make a living or doing this as a hobby, and the gap inbetween is incredibly huge because so few are able to achieve that prestige. What you're wanting to have happen by removing that "Prestige Pricing" would essentially cripple the majority of artists who make a living by removing the value of the reputation that has set them apart from other artists. You are what has Dehumanized them.
And that money doesn't exist as part of the community assets. It has nothing to do with the community until that person decides to use it in said community, otherwise they could very well spend it outside of the community.
Also I've witnessed auctions reaching such high levels, people still ridicule the person for spending that money and the artist for ALLOWING the auction to get that high, as if the artist has a responsibility to limit what people are willing to spend on them.
That's just false. Tartii charges $100+ for most of their commission types and they have no other job and they are able to make a simple living. You do not need to do these exorbitant and predatory prices to make a living.
People shouldn't spend $5000 on a furry art auction, but at least with auctions the buyer chose their price and was not duped into thinking the art had a certain value that it only had in the opinion of anybody stupid enough to listen to the artist. If somebody criticizes an artist for not capping their auction prices, don't listen to them. Autobuy started as a way to avoid the auction process because it can take longer to get paid. If you don't like auctions, it's because you can't afford them, it's as simple as that. I know because I don't like auctions and it's because I can't afford them, lol, but I still consider it ethical business.
As if people are completely incapable of placing a value on something unless the artist tells them what it is?
No one would pay for a Priced YCH of 5000$ unless they thought it was worth their money.
The same goes for someone Bidding up to 5000$ on an Auction.
Why is it Predatory for an artist to value something at 5k when selling something?
But ABSOLUTELY FINE if a Customer values something at 5k when bidding?
It's predatory because it plants the idea in the head of the buyer that said good is worth $5000. Miles's art isn't even worth $200 in my opinion, and when he does auctions, they get competitive and go quite above that, but they never go up to $5000. Because people aren't buying the art for the art. They are buying it to say they spent $5000, for the bragging rights. It's just like Supreme clothing.
Miles art being shit is a common opinion, but its an opinion. Your word on it doesnt make it fact, nor does mine. He holds the auctions, and they get bid on. To those who bid on it, it IS worth it. That's their Opinion. He has every right to charge what he wants for it, and while it gets sold, can continue it. Whether they're buying it for the Art, To have Miles name, or to say they spent 5 grand on a piece of digital art (which i doubt they brag about, a majority of the community isnt wealthy, so bragging about that would not have the desired effect that someone bragging hopes for) - either way, that is THEIR prerogative. Thats their right. They can spend the money they have earned, however the fuck they want. They wanna buy dumb ass clothes? cool. They wanna buy a dumb car they'll never drive? awesome. They wanna buy art that looks like balloon animals? Thats their choice.
He is the exception, not the standard. there isnt a surplus of artists selling art for thousands of dollars. Many are selling it for under minimum wage, and working their ass off for it. And with alot of work, there is a chance they can get the views, the loyal followers to be able to charge. I dont think any art should be priced in the thousands - its not something useful. its not food, transportation, a roof over your head. Doesnt further your education, doesnt help you work or benefit you. Its a picture. of Furries, no less. But if someone puts a price on it, and someone else buys it, why wouldnt they do it again? Im pretty sure if you sold a picture for thousands, youd try it again. anyone would. Its not going to stop until people have gotten their fill of him, and the demand dies down, and he has to lower his prices to get demand back. But its perfectly within his right to charge what he wants for art - just like its in the right for people to pay for it, if they want. No one's holding a gun to their head making them buy it. They buy it for whatever reason they want because in the end - that reason makes them happy.
Also if this is the crux of your argument... that people are just that fucking stupid... Then holy shit I've solved all of your poor artists problem...
Just tell them to charge $5000 too, because some idiot is going to agree with them... and they'll be able to make a living just like that!
You're building on sand and expecting it to hold. They WORK and draw and push to get the TENS OF THOUSANDS OF FOLLOWERS, make a rock solid base- so that they can CHARGE 5k for art, and people pay it. Because they've worked hard enough for the people with that kind of cash to spend on a luxury - to see them.
What drugs are you on? As an Artist of this 'community' let me say - You are entirely, completely, 100%. Wrong. No you cant name a billion ways, cause there are none.
1. Art is a luxury item. You cannot eat it, you cannot house in it, you can not love it. It is not 100% needed in order to exist. its nice to look at. it fulfils a carnal pleasure. same thing you get if you close your eyes and use that damn thing called imagination.
2. I proudly charge 15/35/55$ for art because i want to - and its to put my NAME out there. Its also because i like getting cheaper, decent art out there. Is it less than i want? of course. But you know what, you need to start at the bottom to get to the top. People who are new to the fandom, or only do art as a hobby, or dont push all that hard into Furry art - charge less because walking in and asking 5k for your art when NO ONE KNOWS YOUR NAME is a good way to NOT GET ANY COMMISSIONS. Drawing is a hustle, its a fucking grind. ive been doing Art in general for 15 years. So step off your high horse, you look rude and selfish; as you can see by NO ONE backing you up right now.
3. Every artist has the same chance to get to selling 5k for there art as anyone else. Your complaining because you want their art, but cant afford it. But guess what, they earned it. They started selling cheap art, just like the rest of us. They did give always, free art, raffles, whatever they had to - do you know why? To get their name out there. Do you understand why thats important? because the more people talking about you, the more your name is said - the more DEMAND for your art. The more demand there is, the more your TIME is worth. the more your LABOUR is worth. The more your PRICES can go up.
People who sell 5k have worked their asses off, for god knows how many years, to get to that point. When i first started, my art was free. I did it just so people had it in their galleries and someone could ask 'hey, where'd you get this piece from?' I did it to get loyal repeat customers - who basically paid my bills for me.
It's not about Commissioners, it's about Artists. I'm sorry you want to feel important in this, go start drawing. i started with stick figures. work for 15 years and start charging. Art is a luxury, remember. you don't NEED it to survive. you WANT it.
It's not Prestige prices - they are resting on their laurels because they worked their asses off to get there. Artists who charge less are still in that grind, whether its 20, 50 or even 2-300. You have no right to police their effort, time and ability. You have no right to tell them their hard work isn't worth financial security. Just because you want a popular artists work for cheap because you cant save up or spend that much on art. Yes, you are buying a name. You're buying a piece of art from someone who everyone talks about, who has spent the time to cultivate and grow a huge fanbase of people who want their art, so they have the security of knowing where their next paycheck is going to be. They have worked through the times of not knowing if they're going to eat, to being able to rest and work minimally. That is every artists dream, and its the ones who work their asses of, sacrifice, and push past where many give up, to make it there. Don't you dare make that accomplishment mean nothing. Even if every artist sold their art for the same price - artists would still get ignored for the sake of other artists. people would wait for their preferred artists to open, and pay them. they wouldn't buy art from someone with a less cultivated talent, because its the same price. They want more bang for their buck. they'll wait.
I sell a piece of art for 50$. that art takes me 6 hours to do. Im making 8.33 an hour. Minimum wage is 12$ an hour where i am physically located. So im already making less. I'd have to up my prices to even make minimum wage hourly. No one wants to stay at minimum wage, everyone wants to make more - and according to you i should stay there - why should i be locked into less than?
I have to do 20-30 commissions a month. I work from 5AM to at times, 8PM (when i go to bed) 5-6 days a week. That means i am sitting here, literally breaking my back, deteriorating my muscles (Sedentary Lifestyle) to draw this. Not to mention the other health problems, and mental problems. I personally, have Carpal tunnel, tennis elbow, and a constantly flaring R.S.I (repetitive stress injury) in my right hand (Due to drawing). You know what the diagnosis for healing that is? Not using my right hand for 7-10 months. How the fuck am i supposed to work if i cant use my hand? No one wants to work themselves to the point where they can literally not work anymore. You know what my job doesn't have? Health insurance. Doesnt have Paid time off. Does Not have benefits. my benefit is doing something i love to do -- but that does NOT mean im not 'working' a day in my life. it means i sacrifice.
Anyways - SO you know what they do? raise their prices. instead of having to draw 20-30, i eventually get to a fanbase point that i can charge more, work my way to double. 100$ - get 10-20 pieces and make the same money. Rest my hand some, even work on personal or therapeutic art. Remember why im drawing in the first place- because i love to make art. i love making the invisible ideas, something that can be seen and shared. It helps with burn out. I can work on making my art better, on studies - because guess what - i have the time to better myself. I have the time to step away from the computer, to do physical activities, and to *gasp* rest my wrist.
Now ive worked on my art some, and have gotten way better. But unfortunately, now it takes longer to complete the same art. instead of 6 hours to do, it takes my 9. so my 'wage' shrinks back down. Thats when you gatta up the prices some, to keep it at a steady, and healthy fucking balance. so now, maybe its 150$, or 200$.
And that process keeps climbing. There is no final form of art - there are just people who stop pushing themselves and get comfortable in their style. That's when fanbase really comes into play. how many people want your art? how many times is your name getting passed around, is your art getting shown? how many times do people view your page, favorite your work, comment. That's all $$. That's all thanks to your hard work. now you've got 100 people wanting one or your 10 slots. yes, you could easily fill that, but mentally its damning. now you've got a name and quality to uphold. More responsibility. Raising the prices cuts the demand down to people who can afford your time. That's when, you rest on your laurels. Then you rest on the years of hard work and free art and building up your own corner of the community and charge more for your art. that's when you can get to the point of selling maybe 2-5 pieces a month, and living comfortably. Not damaging your body, mind and relationships. Everyone on the planet wants to make more money, and work less time. Why can't i, or any other artist have the same chance?
A lamborghini is made the same way as a Prius (metal bits conceived, tested, fabricated and put together in a factory) - why don't they cost the same? The food that starts at Gourmet restaurants is grown the same way food at a Mcdonalds,(grown/raised on a farm, shipped to a place) why don't they cost the same? Housing is made out of the same lumber, same drywall, same glass planes as every other house, placed on a designated plot on our Earth - why do we have 100,000$ houses, and 1,000,000$ houses? Same reason one artist is 50, and one is 5000 - Despite innate talent.( a genius mechanic could work for prius instead of ferarri. a Brilliant chef could be stuck at mcdonalds. a huge innovator in housing construction could be making sheds.)
TALENT IS DISTRIBUTED FAIRLY - OPPORTUNITY IS NOT
Time. Expertise. Schooling. Perseverance. Self worth. Hard work. Sleepless nights. Mental and Physical health risks.
You're paying for more than the final product. You gotta start at the bottom, before you reach the top.
Stop trying to socialize and make furries a communist idea. Make an overarching Furry government that controls Furry artist pricing. Your a selfish prick. You want a 5000 piece of art? save up for it. If you don't, then don't complain and spend your money the way you want to, and let other people spend theirs the way they want to. if they want to spend 5k on an art, thats their prerogative. its the same as spending 5k in an auction; the outcome is the same. You get, a piece of art; tailored to you. (more so, if its a commission)
You arn't helping any artist by what your saying; you are in fact, damning us. Stop.
Blatantly false. There can only be a few people relying on outrage marketing at a time because attention is a limited resource.
"Your complaining because you want their art, but cant afford it. But guess what, they earned it."
Bruh I fucking hate Miles's ugly hetero art. This has nothing to do with that. Absolutely zero.
"I'm sorry you want to feel important in this, go start drawing."
I did.
"You have no right to tell them their hard work isn't worth financial security."
Everyone has a right to seek financial security. Nobody has a right to use predatory pricing against a community built on good will. $5000 is more than most people make in a month. If you are suggesting that it's OK for these people to work like 20 hours a month and be quite well off, then no I don't agree, I think that's an extremely inefficient and selfish use of resources. Work is dignifying, I'm not going to pay for a parasite to lounge around, watch Netflix, and eat gold leaf caviar and neither should anybody else.
I totally understand injuries and disabilities. Tartii has arm problems from drawing and raised their prices, but they still aren't thousands of dollars, not because their commissions don't evaporate instantly every time but because they don't NEED that much. Miles and other predatory pricers do not have a disability that forces them to limit how much they work, and I can prove this by showing that Miles puts up and sells multiple multi-thousand-dollar art pieces a month when he could do just one or, shit! Just live off Patreon or something!, but nooo, he needs that high life.
Furries have always been "socialized" and "a communist idea". That's why we give to each-other's health needs. That's why we share art online for free using a commission model or Patreon, and using paywalls is frowned upon and generally not a very successful business model. That's why we work so hard to keep brands and commercialism out of the fandom. It's the communist idea of basic decency and community management, and it does not need a government to enforce. In the end, we are a large network of friends (of course, a communist idea, dating back to prehistorical communism and directly in counter to profit-motive capitalism) that outrage artists like Miles have made it clear they do not want to be a part of.
...anyone else hear a helicopter approaching?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_economy
By the way, I hope you realize when you make helicopter jokes that you're referring to the practices of a racist dictatorship installed by foreign globalists overthrowing democracy.
Blatantly false. There can only be a few people relying on outrage marketing at a time because attention is a limited resource.
Not false. Its not a divine gift. You have to work for it. Do things like free art, fanart, give aways, raffles and the like to get the eyes, and work for the opportunity to work their way up to asking for a lot more. whether its for 100, 500, or 1000 $ - you need an audience in order to sell. TALENT IS DISTRIBUTED FAIRLY - OPPORTUNITY IS NOT
"Your complaining because you want their art, but cant afford it. But guess what, they earned it."
Bruh I fucking hate Miles's ugly hetero art. This has nothing to do with that. Absolutely zero.
I never named miles, you just did. There are other artists that charge alot - hes just the one on YOUR mind because he's popular, because he has an audience. Just because you dont want his balloon animal art, doesnt mean someone else doesnt really like it. Also; not everyone wants art of people fucking shit chutes - maybe they like the other sex, or both. Pulling in sexual preference also shows your jealousy.
Everyone has a right to financial security - unless their an artist with a big following and you dont like their art, right? then its UNTHINKABLE. Yes, 5000 is more than most people make a month. But its not more than everyone makes in a month. while its safe to assume the majority of us arnt well off, there are those that are - Or, check this out, the SAVE UP for it. Its something they want, so they put a little away each month, knowing he has high prices, but its something they want to have.
THere are people that work for an hour a day and make thousands and hour -why dont you go bang on one of their doorsteps? How much money do you think billgates makes every day vs how many hours he works; because of the FOLLOWERS he has, after the YEARS OF WORK he put into it? Its not extremely inefficient or selfish - the fact is they were extremely efficient at what they did, and are now enjoying the dividends of it. Its not selfish to want to work less and earn more - its literally what everyone wants. no one wants to work 10 hours 7 days a week to make a good paycheck with OT. Everyone would like to work less days, less hours and be able to enjoy life instead of working for it. Dont be jealous because they managed it.
SO what kind of computer are you using? Mac or windows? Both of the owners dont work, or dont have to, for all hours of the day. they could literally never work a day longer in their life, watch netflix, eat gold leaf caviar (if you think miles is eating that you are so dumb) . You don't think anyone should (Communist much?) yet you are helping someone do that by buying and owning their products. Your smartphone? same thing. I bet you support a lot of people that dont have to work anymore because they've 'made it'.
No one needs millions of dollars. no one needs 4 homes in different countries around the world. Yet people have it. they worked for it, came up from nothing and somehow, through lots of hard work and sacrifice, made it to the point where they are now, Rich. (its called capitalism, kinda what the USA is made of and why people come here) There are artists that sell for millions, look at Jackson Pollock. Miles has every right to want the high life, like we literally all do. No one wants to worry about bills, wants to be able to buy things without having to budget, wants to get those brand new fancy gadgets, or be able to support friends and family. He made it. He could probably stop - but he likes drawing, likes working (as you claim he doesnt) so he keeps going. Does more each month, cause he wants to draw and work and make money. Also, unless you know him personally or are his doctor to know he doesn't - you're assuming he has no arm issues. Which shows immaturity.
Miles and other people who charge more for their art have every right to charge what they want. They have the audience and the people WILLING TO BUY IT. Again, no one is holding a gun to their head. no one is MAKING THEM buy their art. They want to, and they have every right to spend their money how they want. Also, something you absolutely failed to take into account, Miles isnt American. He charges based on his economy, which has a lot more potential inflation and stagnation than ours does. Just because he doesnt want to work 10 hours a day, every day a week, doesnt make him a lesser person. LIterally no one wants to do that. And if someone does, that's good for them, they'll make that money so that (guess what) one day, THEY DONT HAVE TO - by choice, not by force.
No one wants to be put out of work because of a physical injury. no one wants the limits enforced upon their body and person - I dont want to work those hours. I dont want to because a) my hand, wrist and forearm feel like they're on fire and i can't even grip the pen after a while of drawing - but because, i dont want to. I want to go outside, i want to hang with friends, play a video game, cuddle and watch a movie with my BF - or, draw for my damn self. I want to do more things than sit at my computer, kill my body, and draw a dragon fucking a horse for someone else to get their rocks off.
No, furries have no been 'a communist idea' you Red. Many people are Artists, who use their talent and sell their art, for money. (capitalism) The amount of audience = the rate they can charge. If there are those willing to pay for it, then you can sell it. (capitalism). There are nice people who stick with certains artists, because they've become friends and care about them, and there are people who fuck off and get art from many people and float around. We share art in order to attract people, upon seeing examples drawn for other people, to buy art from us (capitalism). We invite people to our patreon to have a somewhat STEADY paycheck. And as things go on, things get more expensive. Fursuits, Websites likes hardblush, and Art. Things increase in value, and more and more are asked for, because cost of living goes up and we need more money in order to pay for things (capitalism).
"It's the communist idea of basic decency and community management, and it does not need a government to enforce." Yea, okay, Commie. You realize that communism has worked, literally never? And that you are inciting that their is an overarching rule that artists can't charge the prices they want, which would need someone to enforce that said idea (like a government does its people?) We keep commercialism out because we want it in the community. because Joe Shmoe artist doesn't have thousands of dollars to spend on advertising like a company does, we rely on word of mouth for the most part (also,with your logic, we should take down artists advertisements because that doesn't give a fair chance to those that cant afford them)
We are a large network of people with like minded interests, basing heavily in carnal wants and lust, as well as fantasy. Due to the amount of drama i see i seriously doubt the 'were all friends' part. We're accepting for the most part, but ive seen people who are aggressive and mean tho those who dont like what they like. Ive seen and gotten hate mail because i dont draw what someone wants me to, or denied a commission because i dont want to draw it. Ive seen people lie, slander and just to try and make someone run from the fandom, or not be able to get work anymore. Miles and artists like him are apart of the community, whether or not YOU like it. There are people who like them, like their art, and want to buy it, whatever the cost.
FA literally RUNS on capitalist principles, and you are a seriously blind, dumb, and immature baby commie. You really need to grow the up if you want to make it anywhere in life, and possibly live on another continent - because this one runs on $$.
Capitalism is centered around privately owned corporations who employ people. There are no (well, very few) corporations in furry. It's a form of market socialism that has been practiced since the beginning of time. If you don't want to be a fucking socialist, be like Damien Hirst and pay other people to draw "your" art before selling it.
I have a computer and a smartphone because I exist in the world and these are goods that people basically need at this point. The internet is my portal to the world from the difficult situation I am in, and it's also what I use to draw. I'm not a hypocrite for criticizing something I take part in, because my argument isn't that I shouldn't do it, it's that I shouldn't have to.
You want to hear something red? Here's something red. This may surprise you. I am literally from another continent. I am Puerto Rican. I do not understand or care for Western consumerism, other than that it has invaded my home country and turned an island that was prosperous hundreds of years ago into a captive market for a monopoly of overpriced western goods, where the comprador-bourgeoisie gangster mafia capitalists who our former Secretary of Treasury exposed as running our government don't let us pass bills that would promote local businesses, agriculture, manufacturing, anything that would compete with the stateside companies. We aren't even allowed to transition to renewable energy as long as they have money to make off of keeping us reliant on expensive oil shipped on boats. The average Puerto Rican, even moreso than the average American, will never experience the life of luxury that is advertised to us, or even a life comparable to middle class Americans. But we don't care. We have things most Americans can never understand (and I say this having lived in America for now the majority of my life). Community. Love and support. Nature. A feeling of belonging. To a Puerto Rican like me, money is a painful necessity, not something to take joy in, not a ticket to luxury built on the suffering of others, because we're the ones suffering. The aspiration to retire young and spend all day lounging in the pool in a giant house doing absolutely jack shit for others is what divides the first world from the third world. But I assure you that life is totally empty, and the people who actually have it hate it and have high rates of depression because doing nothing gets old quickly. Be careful what you wish for.
You're being completely immature so I'm unwatching and ending the conversation here. Think just once before you speak.
In what possible way should an artists Disability/Disadvantage have to do with the money they make off art? That's completely irrelevant.
And lets say that the 5000$ was priced at $100, whose to say that the remaining 4900$ would even go into the fandom. Perhaps they decided to instead buy a car. Congratulations you've robbed A Community member of 4900$ because of what YOU FEEL is reasonable and that 50$ artist gets nothing. No one in this community has the right to deem what is reasonable for an artist to charge then the WILLING WALLETS of their Customers.
What it has to do with it is art is the only job many people are capable of and their well being should be a community concern.
So maybe some or all of the money in the difference doesn't go into the community. There is a chance of that. As far as I'm concerned if any money at all goes to other artists then it proves my point. As for no money at all going to other artists, it's bound to happen in isolated cases, but that doesn't change the fact that it's still good to keep predatory pricing out of the community for psychological and sociological reasons. It is fundamentally indecent and everyone is worse off for it except the artist. That's parasitism.
So then you want to do what exactly?
Regulate the popular artists so that people won't be allowed to spend money on them?
Should we invoke Commissioning Quota's?
Only allow people to spend so much money on one artist at a time?
Tell artists they are only allowed to take in so much income per month before telling people to please go commission a different artist?
I'm sorry but this High Road you seem to believe you're taking isn't as high as you think it is. What you're leaning towards is taking away from one group of people to ATTEMPT and hold up another rather than just letting people interact freely. If some people succeed and others fail at doing Artwork then that is just life. It's the community's concern to be open and welcoming to furries so that they feel accepted here. It's not the community's concern to organize a Welfare program.
as I said below, it's not anyone's job to make sure someone else can buy a LUXURY
you want something expensive, save for it or get a better job. don't tell artists who draw to be able to afford to live their life as they see fit that they need to hurt their own way of living to make others happy. that's very selfish thinking.
Also too these 5k artists aren’t common at all, if anything the more affordable ones make the majority here. So I don’t understand at all why all the complaining from these kinds of people.
A lot of libertarian economists often have arguments that, when push comes to shove, boil down to "if people don't like the product they are getting then they should vote with their money and boycott instead of trying to regulate it". The internet is fundamentally libertarian and it should stay that way- it has the benefit of not having to worry about material concerns because it isn't directly material, and so nobody's going to, for example, die of disease from contaminated art. Well, here's the community, and here's the boycott. I'm boycotting right now in typing this. There will always be predatory pricers, but the more we establish that it isn't OK, the less likely they are to be able to pull their bullshit. The community is more than capable of sorting itself out without rules or government.
"It's not the community's concern to organize a Welfare program."
If you don't want it to be your concern, then don't let it be your concern. Bye. But most of us care about this community's well-being and our friends and our friends friends. If you're only here for the art and not so much the community itself, that's fine. But I speak for the majority of furries in saying that we aren't OK with people in the community having financial needs that are going unmet. We don't look away at medical bills or starvation incomes. We do our part.
THAT is selfish thinking
Personally, I've been on DA / FA so long, I've seen artists from underselling themselves to being able to actually put food on their plates at night.
It does also come down to the whole supply / demand effect as well. I've seen an artist who is pretty well-known for their work price their work at what you could say is an "affordable" level for the style and form they use. Fast forward a decade and now they have to charge nearly 5 to 7 times that amount because so many people are greedily after their content so much. Furthermore, no one jumped up their ass for it, no one meme'd them or harassed them for it, although people still do use the "I wish I had the money to afford a slot" excuse.
Perhaps it was / is their reputation, or maybe they just don't give a flying fork about the comments. But people gave up trying to condemn them for the rise in their prices.
But, as it has been proven time and time again among this so-called 'community,' people will incite drama, hatred, and double standards wherever they feel fit because we can't be mature, cool-headed adults and act like it. For some reason, most of their mentalities haven't escaped the "middle / high school" age of rebellion.
Artists should be allowed to create what they want, when they want, for the price they so reasonably should charge, whether our of necessity, supply, demand, or whatever else. While I find something like spending 15,000$ on a fursuit a touch absurd (I could afford to live off that for a year under the right circumstances), creators of any type do need to live as well.
And in regards to 15k for a fursuit... I too would think that's absurd, but at the same time I think. "Damn that must be a well respected fursuit maker that alot of people desire."
But, in any case, in regards to the 15k$ fursuit, it wasn't because the maker(s) were well-respected or anything like that, it merely became a pissing contest over who had the bigger e-wallet. A fursuit from the particular maker used to only go for about 1000-3500$, depending on species, colors, complexity, etc etc. Which actually brings the topic mostly full circle. Artists will charge what they want, when they want, where they want, just like people will "throw away" their money at things as absurd as a fursuit for 15k$ for bragging rights and bigger e-peen status.
If there were a more balanced and uniform medium in terms of what prices should be (like, example, minimum wage average across a spectrum vs the maximum wage across a spectrum, per hour of work, etc etc), there would be a more balanced sense of what artists should charge for their time and effort rather than this large scale conflict over what is right / wrong for prices. But that will never happen either.
"If there were a more balanced and uniform medium in terms of what prices should be (like, example, minimum wage average across a spectrum vs the maximum wage across a spectrum, per hour of work, etc etc), there would be a more balanced sense of what artists should charge for their time and effort rather than this large scale conflict over what is right / wrong for prices. But that will never happen either."
Although I can understand your sentiment from this I think we can both agree on why it would never be possible and that's because an artist and their art style will vastly change the variables upon which the price of their work is based on from the start.
You can't really regulate the prices of all artists when virtually all of their products are different from one another. In the end this would essentially place boundaries on how successful artists are allowed to be, morally I find that to be wrong, and once artists reach that point they'd just be encouraged to leave the fandom for greener pastures.
But, I do agree with you, it would be a limiting factor if there was some sort of balance and reference point between what is affordable and offered quality, without sacrificing artistic freedom in the end.
And lol, I mean, if I made fursuits (which I did as well in my earlier artistic phase), and someone offered me 15k to make one, you bet your sweet, lizard ass I'd be bending over backward for that person, but yeah, it still boggles my mind being a part of the lower working class to even fathom someone dropped the equivalent of what I could afford to live on for a year on something that's going to see maybe 2 years of use. Wouldn't even pay for itself in the end. XD
I don't want hundreds of thousands of dollars. That's just asking to become like them, but I want enough to be able to live a modest life and nothing more.
For others it's a profitable past time.
I have seen some artists who let a little bit of success go to their heads and have tried to charge astronomical prices while, other fledgling artists are lucky if they can get someone to look at their art, despite it being a good quality.
Agreed, that snarling about their prices, is both fruitless, pointless and above all childish and rude.
I've argued this with many others as I work for Amazon (You want to talk about a scummy company)
If you truly wish to hit someone where it hurts, ESPECIALLY a business. You go after what they value most. Their money. If another artist is charging to much? Rather then snarling and dissuading others that'd maybe consider it. Find another artist. Some might not have the style you're looking for but, they can evolve. It's inspiring to see. Raging helps no one.
Unless yer like a berserker or something then keep that in check as you'll need it for combat later
The quip about the Frog in the Pot of water comes to mind especially for this. Bring the water to a boil slowly over time and the frog will stay in the pot and accept the changes in heat/price w/o an issue. However do the opposite and raise the prices in large quantities all of a sudden and you risk all of your audience going WAIT WHAT?
Sticker shock is a thing for a reason after all.
It's like...well i've heard stories and seen some prices of Gamesworkshop models, which are fucking pricey. It's apparently a fucking expensive "Hobby", and with more and more artists becoming 'mainstream' so to speak, or in general just increasing their prices beyond the 'casual hobbiest' range there is going to be more anger. People wanna do the RP, but if they use art from E621 or any of the near limitless options, they get yelled at even if they aren't claiming the art as theirs, just using it as a eye catcher or "My chara looks kinda like this" even.
The other problem is some artists, while I understand pride and it took you forever to build your skill to reach X level, have no 'dial back' option for quality, some don't even offer sketches, straight to line art for 30-35$, add colors for 20-25$ with no option for flats or anything. 50-60$ for a pinup of a generic looking human...I can understand why people complain. They are assholes for doing it, but I understand at least.
Also, adopts for auction with starting bids of 200$? No bonuses for it going past X amount, no autobuy, like...that is a bit much.
Personally I feel like there should be a "Free use" website, a place where "Hey if the art is here the artist/commissioner will not bother you about removing the artwork so long you do not claim it as yours". I feel like this should reduce some of the rage, but who knows it could make it more intense against artists who refuse to put their stuff there...
This I don't think I can agree with. I would compromise that there are alot of people that get artwork and enjoy casual RP, but I would not see it as their main reasoning. Largely in part because of how many commissioners are repeat customers such as myself. I've gotten a tremendous amount of artwork over the years and it is likely that it started because I wanted to get my character drawn so that when I interacted with others I could point and say "Yeah that's my character."
HOWEVER. over the years as that collection of artwork has grown into the 4 digits. The reasoning for that artwork has completely changed into a variety of things.
On a different topic I will gladly say that some things like Adopts for Auctions are just silly in my mind, especially in how the adopts are handled for instance.
But still, there are lots of folks i've run into personally who just use 'found art' because they view commissioning costs too much, considering they have seen adopts being auctioned off for 200$ starting bid, or YCH slots of just an ass shot starting off for 60$, ect.
It would be nice, still, if there was a easier way to find the inexpensive artists, or if the more expensive artists offered more options. I'd be fine with a longer wait time if it meant I could get something cheaper. Like if an standard commission was 60$, but was done within' a week, i'd be fine waiting an entire month if it could shave off like 20$, like a 'low priority' thing to reduce cost...
But the majority of artists cannot survive on customers that are only going to commision them once.
They NEED that repeat business to make up for having only so many people being aware of them.
i've seen this happened/legit happen to me from a "fan" and im like "uh ok.. i guess i got too 'high' for u when im just base my price on how long it takes to finish it? thanks for ur service while it was ;there'
i wish i could RT reblog this coz i know most ppl will agree there are some folks who do this and its just...so wrong and terrible :/
The artist did nothing wrong, they gotta make a living afterall. And it's imperative to their business that they continue to grow and acquire a larger audience that can help that process continue.
To me, an increasing price as art/artist improves just comes with the territory. They invest more and more hours for an increase in quality over that time.
It's petty to berate somebody's prices and say what amounts to "I can't afford you so I'll take my business elsewhere!" The silent majority will just move on and find another appealing style/artist who can meet their 'art budget' per month.
On the flip side, more popular people surely take advantage over the fact people pay for brand recognition and exposure: if someone with 1,000,000 page views posts something with your character...they'll get a bunch of attention/views themselves.
In this day and age of social media, a really simple/uninspired porn YCH from somebody really well known will go for hundreds or thousands more than somebody underground who creates a much more intricate / fundamentally sound image, porn or not. People pay for that recognition!
It's a double-edged sword depending on the context.
I'll admit that when I post artwork I've gotten some part of the desire is to see what comments people may leave because one of the things I enjoy the most is interacting with folks in the comment section. I deeply do love the feedback I get from people in the community, just as much as anyone else would I imagine.
Me too, man. Comments are awesome to see / respond, especially for the ones I like!
X)
Basic things that money can buy.
I understand being frustrated with the market or finding honest criticism of the work (if it's repetitive, uninspired, etc) but just yelling at the artist isn't helpful.
That aside, people will always complain about not being able to afford something when there is not a cheaper but almost as good alternative. Look at house hold appliances, or even name brand cereal vs generic. These guys just aren't looking around enough for the 'generic brand' artists, which honestly can be a bit of a pain and there is a lot of looking under rocks to find em.
I've been surprised by that a few times with some of the YCH auctions I've held offering people a chance to be with my character. I won't expect it to go psst a certain amount but then it'll go triple that xD
people dont just go to a store and just bitch and complain till they get a high-end tv. so why should they feel so entitled to bitch and moan and cut down an artist for their prices that they use to live off of. in reality they dont do it for a product in the store made by a machine, so how is it ok to do so for something someone actually had to work on themselves for hours and pour their own effort into a one of a kind art piece?
doesnt make sense to me, but heaven forbid anyone points that out .
For me I am not bothered about prices at all I buy from those I like that I can affored, getting angry at someone since I cant affored them just seems childish.
You should not crap on someone elses happyness. Its great they have established themself as a high class brand and can live good on the money they make, this is a really great thing for the artist and people should not shit on them for it.
Being angry at other peoples success just makes you look like a ass. So I agree with you.
Sure we all want to reach a point in life where we can maximise income for the least work possible. But when your work is on public display, its going to become obvious over time that you're just doing as little work as possible for a vastly over inflated price. Personally I'm not going to complain about an artist having high prices (again, they're free to do that). But if I look through their gallery and all their shit looks the same? I'm going to think that's just plain lazy, even more so if they don't even do custom commissions but YCHs. Pre-made, cookie cutter stuff, and you're charging hundreds of bucks for this?
Surely somebody gets my angle here :P
Sometimes "support" just means "buying stuff where I'm getting more than my money's worth" I guess ;p
But that's just my opinion, plus I wouldn't flame an artist because they raised their prices beyond my buying range. They're free to charge what they think they're worth; whether it's an amazing artist charging 20 bucks for a piece that takes them a good three hours to complete with amazing details or 100 bucks for something that looks straight out of microsoft paint. It's how capitalism works, you're free to sell at whatever works for you. If an artist raises past my buying point I'll go looking for someone whose style I like within buying range.
While no reasoning can excuse going out of ones' way to start or shout malice, there should also be reasoning in being an artist and expanding your listing to the point only the wealthiest people can afford.
"A happy customer is a repeat customer."
Either way, I stay out of the drama. I might have my own opinion, and though I pride myself on being open-minded, I don't go bothering with a lot of the artists out there asking for a fortune, especially if the art, at least to me, looks like it belongs on Cartoon Network or some other childrens' show network. But people will be people these days: entitled.
On the other hand, some people are greedy arseholes who wants to jack up the price at every turn, despite the minimal effort put into it.
Which kind is worse? Well let's just say that only one of them makes things truely worthless... The gaming industry is a good example of that. I lost all faith in those people after the likes of Anthem and Fallout 76. Those things are nothing but brand names; no quality, no fun, no artistic merit, just polished junk made to sell... with microtransactions on top of a 60$ price tag! -_-
Today's industry has hollowed out any sort of trust from their consumers, and as such I think it's no wonder that people will be very critical of over-priced stuff. Sure there's a line between being critical and just being an asshole, but that line gets pushed way back when sellers would rather treat you like an idiot than make an effort...
And since we're on the topic: Since FA would censor anyone who says his name in public, I'll just make it obvious who I'm talking about when I say "Fuck that guy."
The problem with the art market is that it's entirely subjective so you get mediocre artists raking in the dough while highly talented ones struggle just to fill slots. Some artists do flat out charge an absurd amount of money for the market they're working in while pointing out wage figures from the commercial market where tens of millions (if not more) go into a project as if it were some justification. The commercial value is what drives those wages up. In furry art... not much commercial value overall especially when the works are largely personal commissions of folks just wanting to show off an idea and have someone else bring it to reality for whatever reason.
At the end of the day they can charge what they want and the market will decide it's worth. Alas the market is not exactly fair and both sides do need to accept this fact. Me personally, I just don't care enough to bother but I have no doubts these artists that step away because they cannot handle criticism of their pricing do the same themselves. Wacom and Adobe are popular targets. See it all the time and quite frankly those are luxury items just like the art they sell. It's the double standard and thin skin I take issue with. Those that charge beyond what I feel the work is worth.. I just spend elsewhere. I just don't care enough to give them the input any longer and let survival of the fittest (in the business sense) take it's course.
A thick skin goes a long way in this business and in my observation.. the artist community in general has one of the thinnest there is.
I try to remember that there are lots of great commissioners out there too. Just not as visible because instead of screaming and flinging shit as loudly and as far as they can, those good people are just like "Good job." and quietly paypal over the fee with a nice tip. In many places, the fandom is like renaissance Italy, with a big class of generous art patrons keeping the creative engines running.
Fast forward to 2016,it slowly died off and next thing I know, I'm falling back because no one was supportive, but my art still grew. Basically I'd say I don't need support from others, but I take what I can get cause I'm not a wealthy artist myself. People I know on here and other social medias say they'll support me, but I honestly don't see it.
I feel like I'm at threshold of my skills now. I should be one of those artists people look up to and I really am too those artist less fortunate than I am.
My price range varies on my skills so I go from $5 to $50 no higher.