Does that mean it's going to be illegal to be on FA?

Multiple images of a drawn veterinarian raping a feral dolphin for sexual pleasure should be banned I think ya

I mean will someone who doesn't involve themselves with that face consequences just for being here

I mean the consequence would be less artist sticking around on the site. Less commissioners uploading to the site, etc

If FA gets worse, it could get a stigma like inkbunny users have. However, I think with how nostalgic this site is to many people, no one would stigmatize it so harshly

Ah so no global legal consequences, good

"fictional"
oh god this

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“Yet”, referring to having a dolphin mounted into a wall as a living trophy for abusing at any time.

Yeah this is absolutely horrible.



YET

YET

YET
マラミット
Marmit_Trysuer
·
3h
“Officer, I didn’t touch her in any way! …yet.
Θώθ What's this?

That’s a plot point in Amazon’s superhero show “The Boys”

I get this is a thing, but where's the uproar about F-List? How there are literally people playing babies named "BIG FAT BLACK MOMMY RAPER" and other disgusting shit like that. Not a peep.

Hush now; pointing out their obvious pearl-clutching hypocrisy will only make the poor dear's head hurt.

No, please point out all the problems. Then we can address them.

Ignoring one because another site is doing the same bad thing isn't helpful

Oh I agree there are issues, I just dislike it when folks are okay with one form of morally questionable thing and not okay with another for reasons that, at best, seem arbitrary.

I would say people don't do stuff arbitrarily. People usually don't know how to communicate why they do a thing or they don't want to say the quite part out loud

True, but without said communication it certainly seems arbitrary.

LMAO

I think it's cause most people don't RP on FLIST nor is it as large as FA
I only know of it mostly as the horny kink list maker tbh

But ya, sites like that, e621, inkbunny, etc have big issues that need to be addressed or deleted

Not sure what an alternative for flist is. No one is trying to compete with e621 so it's the only tool of it's kind around. Inkbunny just needs to be deleted tbh, it's only useful as a backup at most currently.

Until we have alternatives, or have the means to fix such things. Please bring up the issues here. Making people more aware a good thing!

I'm glad. I wasn't aiming to make my statement any form of 'whataboutism' but more to detail that there are tons of sites who have pretty flagrant things like that. But I think a major problem with all of this is that, by all technicality, there's nothing 'illegal' about drawing non-sentient animals in sexual acts because it's considered fantastical, hence why it's not removed. In fact, I know of a commissioner who gets art with clearly non-sentient beasts and people don't hassle him at all for it because of its fantasy nature.

It's a weird, grey line that ends up bringing up all kinds of debates on where that line should be drawn or if it even can be. The best I can do on sites like F-List is just block any person with an underaged or underaged-seeking profile and it's kinda frustrating because, while technically legal, it doesn't feel right at all.

Ya. We as a fandom really need to starting talking about those gray lines more

Exploration into ideas isn't terrible and cracking down on everything can be really bad. However, part of this problem stems from us not talking about these issues or at the very least not communicating about the issues we're seeing

Honestly the fandom is kinda like a mini-USA. We ignore a ton of problems because it's just a hobby which causes people to get away with stuff no one wants. Without the discussion it creates small pockets of community that create toxic spaces. The leader of the site isn't going to deal with the problem (I have tried with the racism problem directly and got ignored when I asked what their direct plans were to actually deal with the issue rather than a PR "we're considering plans for the future")

We need to start thinking about what we're doing and how we're operating

I think your initial premise was misplaced then. Saying "fictional zoophillia shouldn't be allowed" puts forward the wrong argument when your actual point is "I don't want to create a safe space for those who actually practice zoophillia".

A significant amount of people that are into zoophillia or loli or whatever as a fetish would never do so in real life, and don't approve of those that would. There are even those that would act out on such urges if not for the fictional outlet. Should they require an "outlet" for such urges? Probably not, but it's difficult to seek help to deal with such urges, especially loli, with how stigmatized they are in society.

One might argue that allowing such work would inspire those to commit it in real life. However we have no statistical evidence whether it helps cope with such urges more than it promotes them, because of the aforementioned stigma making it difficult to talk about.

Banning such content doesn't get rid of the urges people have for it. It just pushes them to smaller and smaller corners of the internet or elsewhere. Pushing them to those more extreme places with people that do actively engage in such things.

If anything we should be welcoming to such kinks BUT those within such corners of the community need to crack down hard on such outliers. If we shun such groups, then the actual offenders will be sequestered away in harder to find places, rather than out in the open where they can be better addressed. Deleting the content doesn't deal with the people other than making them go "away", wherever that is.


That's my opinion anyway.

Nope I didn't misplace what I said. Fictional zoophilla where the main focus is fucking non sentient animals is not ok. It's directly fetishizing a thing we do not want.

The loli one is a much easier one to realize this. There's a lot of elements of loli you can have without loli, cute faces, size difference, etc. When you NEED the being to be a kid, when the specific jerk off moment is that their age being super young, THAT becomes the issue. "Non practicing murder" is not something we say, because we realize what a practicing murder means. We do need to discuss things like therapy or underlying reasons for liking such content but we also don't need to promote it such works as well.

Pushing people to small corners is an issue but just letting people post CP and animal abuse is not a solution. You can ban something and have a plan after that.

We should not be welcoming such kinks.

The problem and the ethics involving this is that if it remains in fiction, it's entirely legal and so long as it doesn't harm someone or actually involve animals or underaged individuals, then having those kinks is technically not an issue. The thing is that one is a lot more shunned than the other (art of underaged characters VS art of non-sentient animals/ferals), and that's because of societal taboo and bias, something that runs deeper than just art on the internet. Ethically, it's entirely legal to have both underaged ART and zoophile ART, but not the real thing. The reason FA removed underaged/cub porn is because of the double standard created by social taboo where children are protected much much much more than animals, thus creating a situation where non-sentient animal art is seen as okay.

Is it right? Is it wrong? To be completely honest with you, I think that becomes a matter of where individuals draw the lines of where limits should be, and that line in the case of fiction and kink is murky and grey. This ISN'T TO STATE that people who have these kinks who ALSO partake in and share real life zoophile/pedophile art shouldn't be held accountable for it - once it becomes real, it stops being protected - but that also doesn't mean the kink itself is something that necessarily dictates an interest in the real thing. People post necro all the time on FA but no one screams that the site should be deleted because RL necrophiliacs MIGHT get off to it. Perhaps because that is seen as much more fringe and hasn't been unearthed as frequently as the former two.

I really hope that I'm not coming off as an advocate for RL zoophiles and pedophiles... but it's a lot more nuanced than "we need to remove literally everything involving x y and z kink because it's bad and bad people like it".

Necro is actually a good one to bring up

If you fuck some bones it doesn't do anything. The corpse is dead. What gets hurt are people's idea of the body's original state being "harmed" (the idea the person's body is them rather than the brain/memory aka object permanence). Plus there's maybe some legit bacteria if you do stuff with certain types of corpses. Fictional or not, the extreme harm comes from how you get the corpse tbh.

Now I would still say no to necro but that is a kink in which you can have a bunch of non-harmful outcomes if you wanted to argue for that. People's symbolic and moral ideas of death will stop you faster than logic. Again, I say this as a person who would still say no to necro, especially when a large youtuber was in groups where zoos were "non practicing" by fucking road kill. At the very least it should raise some big red flags

Zoo is different because the creature getting harmed is still generally alive. The animal is also generally a pet which if you own something, you can't consent as easily or at all. If you could insure of have a system where zoos ONLY engaged in fictional media, then sure fine it's w/e. There are no systems in place for that and a zoo owning a pet means you'll never know if they fuck their dog or not. How to you ensure protection for the animal? One way is to make it social not ok to do such things. That "body language" for a dog is not consent.

Kids use to not be protected beings. The idea kids are likely to live and must be super protected is new-ish. Some people didn't even use to name their kids until they turned 3 years old way back in the day. Fucking kids was a thing people use to do a lot more as well (and still do but to a MUCH less extent)

We should treat it more as a medical issue ya, not as "evil people must burn" but like I said in my post. You can ban the stuff and have a better means of treatment than "just let it happen". Making it an individual line will get you groups of pedos and zoos on twitter going "YA, the boundry is that I don't actually fuck my dog, I only touch my dog while getting off. They licked me when I spilled peanut butter it's not my fault or something"

Again, "non-practicing murder" or "no-touch rapist" is a weird statement. "no-touch pedo" or "non-practicing zoo" should raise some big red flags

I'm sorry, but at the moment, I feel as if you're talking beside me, if that makes sense. The point of my comment was that there is a discrepancy between fantasy kink and reality, and indication of having a fantasy kink does not necessarily mean that people who have it have those desires outside of the Internet or drawn material, hence why 'zoophile' art is allowed but zoophilia is still very much wrong.

Also, focusing on necro as something that has already happened isn't what I was initially aiming for, but rather there are LOTS of snuff/gore pictures out on FA that no one bats an eye at, leading to necro, but they aren't given the same level of scrutiny and judgment, because there's not a group outside of it (ie on Twitter) for people to directly point at in disgust.

I never once agreed that fucking animals IRL or fucking children IRL was acceptable, nor would I ever condone it in my wildest dreams, but the belief that art of that kind will lead to the IRL reenactment is the same kind of archaic, puritan argument that was used to say 'well if gay people are allowed to do what they want, then it will inspire other people to turn gay' when there are deeper, more important factors that come into play that draw a person towards those disgusting, physical acts and urges of wanting sex with children or animals.

I responded cause I think saying that people aren't focusing on all the bad kinks thus there's a discrepancy that's more important to focus on is something I semi-agree with ya, but I am unsure what the goal of that statement is besides letting such topics slide currently in this thread.

My issue overall for the journal is that there is a lack of action and discussion around such topics on FA. When it comes to FA, there's a lot of baggage in terms of it's relation with IRL zoophila, pedophilia, racism, and more via it's users and leadership. That people should consider what's going on and leave and or help make FA stop being shitty.

So sure, real life and fantasy don't inherently lead to something, but the culture of FA doesn't promote education for people to not be lead to disgusting shit. You hear a lot of grooming stories or even racist sentiment because people let it slide/encourage bad shit.

Like just as a base framing of your other statement:
If individuals draw the lines of where the limits should be, how would that stop teens from being groomed by pedos? What does saying that the murky line is going to be murky?

If I'm arguing that people who draw veterinarians raping feral dolphins should be banned because that creates a space in which raping an animal is sexually good. That the users of FA should hold the mods accountable for letting an account with multiple pictures of that slide with a "We allow fictional zoophilla here". That particular mod allowed both drawn zoophilla and the non-con raping of an animal who was in pain to be left on the site.

Basically I'm confused what your end goal is here.

I'm in agreement with you, but I think what my goal is by responding is to state that while their stance on fictional art of zoophilia might be disgusting to some, I don't believe it deserves the same kind of uproarious response that people are giving it compared to the actual problems of people on the site as you mentioned - a failure to express any sort of solidarity with minorities in the United States, instances of individuals engaging in illegal activities still being allowed on the platform, etc.

Cancelling fictional kink porn like zoophilia feels like more of a kneejerk reaction from folks who have had people who have done ACTUAL zoophilic actions in the spotlight recently and are conflating fantasy with reality, or are using it as a catch-all that anyone who enjoys it is immediately "on their way to doing it IRL" when that's not the case for the majority of them.

So basically...
1) I agree with you entirely and wholeheartedly that FA isn't doing enough to deal with actual issues that need addressing.
2) I disagree that the culture of FA doesn't promote education but on the stipulation that, bluntly, academia as a whole kinda blows dicks at dealing with anything regarding kink-related behavior since it only steps in once it reaches the tipping point of 'creating distress for the individual and/or putting another living being in harm's way'. That's not an FA problem; that's a societal problem.
3) While I agree that the content of those pictures is absolutely -not- something I enjoy, the fact that it's fictional, drawn content means that, honestly, it's not illegal to make or distribute. The same goes with pictures of hanging, self-mutilation, castration, peril, drowning, gutting, gore, snuff, etc etc etc. Those are still depictions of animals/furries being gored, maimed, tortured, and killed, often non-con, but there's no intense uproar about that despite being equally as graphic and being equally as allowed.
3a) "But why did they ban cub porn and not x y z? Those are just as bad" - societal double standards. Zoophilia is seen as worse than everything else I've provided because it happens to animals who are seen by society as "something that needs to be protected" VS straight guro which is swept under the rug. Using the argument that 'but seeing x y z leads to people actually doing it IRL" misses the point that the focus should not be on the art that's being produced but on the people who show the greatest intent on performing those actions IRL. The people with zetas in their profiles on Twitter, those who raise those red flags you mentioned before.

What I meant by "talking beside me" was moreso how I feel like you were starting to bring up a shotgun blast of all kinds of different subjects that weren't directly tying to what I was trying to say, which was 'even though people are angry about this, it's technically within fair reason that it stays on the site despite the intense backlash over it'.

I know it feels like it's an open and shut case that it's bad and so it needs to be removed and it can't exist, but this is ultimately a philosophical debate on the nature of consent, fantasy VS reality, and the individual perception of how individuals interact with taboo materials.

Then we are going to agree to disagree with this. There are a ton of fantasies that people have which would be inadvisable, or just plain illegal if you were actually going to do in RL, most of which I personally have no interest in, and don't want to see. Zoophilia is one. Rape is another. Hypnosis/mind-control. Lab experiments/alterations where consent was clearly not given. All things that if it were done in RL, it would be illegal and just as morally reprehensible. I've seen plenty of that stuff online, but I just decide to visit someone's else's profile instead. Not my thing? Oh well, I'll find something that's my thing instead. But I'm not going to kink-shame someone for that fantasy, as long as it doesn't translate to RL.

I have little interest in yet another Burned Fur movement.

I'm talking about underlying reasons for the kink ya. Not just legality

It's legal to not give someone food who is near to the point of fatal starvation if they don't have money and I would call that wrong. We should question the things you mentioned but there is a discussion to have about what stuff we should promote ya.

If someone had a fantasy about killing your parents, but they just kept it fictional, you would go "I like my parents so that's not really my thing" you'd go "WTF why do you want to kill my parents???" Would you be fantasy shaming for someone drawing the death of your parents over and over wishing for the day they can do it in VR or something

I think "agree to disagree" is a silly statement that is trying to be kind about saying "you're wrong". You're wrong if you think 2+2 = 394349.34, I hope you agree that a person wanting your parents dead in their mind is wrong.


Burned furs are not even close to what we're discussing. Burned furs were a proto-AltRight group/weird puritan group. Coming from the person who draws weird shit at points, it's fine to think critically about the subject we express

It's mostly because there's nothing else like F-list, but if someone makes an alternative without all that shit I'll jump on it immediately

In my experience the mods here tend to be okay at the best of times and aggressively shitting the bed at the worst of times. It's honestly why I've shutdown 95% of my FA and just use the scraps folder as an art archive. I know people will hate me for saying this but the time has long since passed for FA to be surpassed by another site and left to die.

I mean, chase is still on the admin team. So it's not surprising the things that are allowed on this site.

I didn't think chase was into zoo

Oh yeah. It's been a few years now so I don't completely remember where it surfaced from. It either came up because of those note leaks all those years back or he just admitted it after people called him out on it. He claimed he, "doesn't do it anymore" but since him and Neer are so buddy buddy he's allowed to stay.

Looked up that info and yaaaaaaaaaaaaa

FA strays further from god every day

I think it's a combination of this site and the fandom. I just think it's in a continual state of wading through knee deep shit.

The good, the bad and the hilarious.

The uprising of porn in the 20th century has lowered the sex crime statistics. People still say porn is a bad thing and even mentioning it is prohibited on SFW (or better "safe for ads") channels. So porn overall is bad? nah.

Some extrem kinks look repulsive to those who don't have it. But if you keep those fantasies exactly that, a fantasy, the world doesn't have to fear a thing. It's people who can't distinguish real and fictional behavior and act it out in reality those people are a problem. Just because the kink is shared doesn't mean everyone will try to actually do it.

"yet" as in "for the moment I have those fantasies that keep me sated", but you know take those from me and I might get worked up enough to push my moralities aside and do it. Good idea?

Crime in general has gone down to to many factors ya

I am confused what you're trying to argue in the first part

If someone has a fantasy about murdering your parents, actively gets others to want to think about fantasizing the murder of your parents, and produces content for wanting to murder your parents, would you be fine with that?

I am confused again what you're talking about

So, you want to get personal? Okay?
You don't get anywhere with that though. Even if someone has a thing for killing my dead relatives, what gives? As long as they just fantasise about it they are hardly a thread. If they prepare to jump into action, buying tools, scouting their place, we can talk about legal actions. But until then I don't need to do much but keep a weary eye on them, right?
Where else better then in the public, if I force them to go underground I won't see them anymore.

If I go and distract them with fictional content, that has nothing to do with reality, they can't do any harm.

Fictional content is a double edged sword. On one side you give them what they want and on the other you keep them from doing something stupid.

Not to be rude, but you understand what I meant about the kill of something important. My example can easily be swapped out directly for you. If you have a group of people that say they want to murder you and you know about it, would you wait until they started coming to your house before you'd take precautions or deal with the problem?

Someone yelling in public they want to murder you doesn't really matter if no one does anything about it. So what exactly is being done about this issue? "Just letting it happen" is a dumb way to solve a problem. That's like saying "My house is flooding from a broken pipe, better let it keep running so I can keep an eye out on how much water is running out." That's not helpful in the slightest.

Do you deliberately ignore the part were I wrote about "If they jump into action ..."?

I think you've never had a death threat before ya. That your "jump into action"'s line is at the point where someone is about to try and murder you when that could have been stopped earlier

I think you're being really casual about what it would mean for a person to want to fantasize your death. Like if someone keep drawing your corpse or the different ways they'd want to kill you, I would assume you'd call that action and not just fantasy for obvious reasons

What you wanna do cowboy? Loot the closet and swim the ocean to shoot me?
Look, your example is nice and all, but so detached from anything feasible you make me laugh.

If you have an individual, that might do something stupid, go after that individual, but going after the collective won't give you any points.
Your art is nice, but damn ... your personality ...

You're purposely ignoring the point I'm trying to make about how propagating terrible shit is not neutral and accepting fantasies as being w/e is how you get dumb shit like the zoos here or Qanon... seems like there's a reason for that...

Thanks for liking my art and my personality!

Can't really say I reciprocate the feeling. Especially when it seems you may have a bias for liking zoos and maybe even wanting to fuck baby pokemon.

I’ll be honest, this whole specific thing seems hella out of proportion because that minor just now learned something they didn’t know before.

That account’s art that’s been posted seems like par for the course type of stuff that this site has had since its founding. Like, it’s easy to browse “animal related (non-anthro)” and “adult” art and find any number of feral porn pics. I don’t get why NOW this is suddenly some massive controversy when what amounts to fictional zoophilia that’s been around for 15+ years. Real life zoophilia is for sure fucked. But people acting like this is some new revelation come off naive.

All of this isn’t to say I specifically support the account in question or zoophilia, but it’s definitely not something new or shocking. In other news, water is wet.

Agreed, this whole journal is a train wrack.

1. "Veterinarian sexual assaults feral animal for sexual gratification while said animal is upset by such actions " is maybe something we shouldn't just expect any member of the fandom will eventually learn

2. Zoophilla been an issue for some time. It's a bigger thing now only cause more people are being critical of FA. FA has this problem. This topic gets brought up more. People aren't seeing it as a new revelation and it's sad to expect that zoophilla should just be expected to accept.

3. No one said we're surprised. People are saying, what's going to be done about it?

1. Well, if we break down the ‘why’ in which we think this particular scenario is bad, it’s largely to do with it being both feral and non-consensual sex. (And tbh if an animal is feral in every way, that basically by default is non-consensual.) Both of these art categories are generally allowed on both here and on most furry sites. So if your argument is to eliminate every form of non-consensual art on here, I feel like that would need to be evenly applied across the board. Because while pedo art has its ties directly to real life pedophilia and should def not be allowed, any outside perspective is going to look at most standard nsfw furry art, anthro or feral, and say that it’s zoophilia.

2. Fair enough, but tbh I think it has more to do with Twitter than it necessarily being some massive movement of more people criticizing FA. I’ve been on here since 2013 (and lurked quite a while before then), and FA has always had some varying degree of criticism levied towards it. I just think this particular instance seems disingenuous because it’s so blatantly been a part of FA since its founding that the outrage comes off more as a result of Twitter drama. Also I draw a distinction between practicing real life zoophiles and art featuring it, because this being the furry fandom, I think it’s a slippery slope to try and weed out one form of this type of thing while not acknowledging that most of the fandom largely falls into ‘being attracted to animals’ and would be considered zoophiles, myself and you included even if it’s anthro. So if we’re going to target people we’re afraid will abuse animals or promote such behavior, the argumentation and movement against them needs to be more focused than just ‘zoophilia of any kind bad’.

3. I’d disagree. Maybe not all, but there’s a lot of people in response to that Tweet who are surprised at this revelation. As for what will be done about it, probably nothing tbh. It will probably result in another small wave of people leaving the site, but with FA casually getting 40k users coming on daily and the track record of other furry sites trying to rise up and usually failing to gain traction, I don’t think Neer or the admins are probably going to change anything relating to this policy.

1. My main issue with zoo is primarily non-consent and the fetishization of those relationships. If a dog could talk English, have a highschool diploma, and be of age relative to what a dog is. Most people won't give a fuck, cause it's clear that consent/age/intellegence is there. How that applies to artwork can be tricky but I think can be done. A lot of feral art doesn't do this or explicitly shows they aren't human sentient or even of age.
But ya, apply such discussion to other topics too with furries involved. From the outside looking in, CoD looks like a murder simulator. Most people don't listen to said outsiders cause that's a silly view. That doesn't mean CoD doesn't have issues like ultra nationalist propaganda or getting people to learn about IRL guns and stuff, but we're a social species that has the capacity to be nuanced and communicate that nuance to others.

2. I'm going to use USA politics to explain why this isn't disingenuous. The founding of the USA enshrined slavery of black people into law. The founding of the USA had great aspects but a lot of shity ones too. When people have brought up that we need to do better, people have said "that's not what the forefathers wanted! I like my (insert bad thing here)"
But the USA made changes because nothing is static. It's ok to say hey, we need to change or discuss some of the issues here

FA just has a shit ton of issues. Even when I started lurking here the "I'm leaving FA cause it's bad" post was a thing.

And sure, if your definition of zoo is "to what degree do you want to fuck your dog" then sure, all anthros are technically zoo. But that's a silly definition. Inherent to anthro is that you are humanizing something. Anthro inherently tries to make a creature or object closer to us. So to stick feral with anthro is only technically the same on the most shallow of levels

and like I said before "No-touch rapist" or "non-practicing murder" is a weird phrase no one uses because you can understand what it would be for them to be a touch rapist and a practicing murder. A person drawing pictures of your ultimate murder with sexual gratification is not something we just "let happen" for obvious reasons.

3. If you mean the people who are surprised it exists on fa? Ya, some people have that happen because not everyone uses categories lol. It's easy to be in a bubble on FA like anywhere else. Even me lurking for years didn't know some of the shit that went on until later in my time of being here. Info just travels faster with more range now, that's all

I mean hecky, my view of Neer has gone way down after speaking to him about BLM. He (kinda)supports it on his personal twitter and FA twitter shallowly shows off BLM in their name, when asked to make an informational post here to help inform people of actions they can take to help BIPOC lads and maybe even general actions to allow BIPOC to feel better about being around here, cause there's been a lot of racists around here, he does shit all or the most easy solutions that don't fix the underlying problem(like breaking the search for the n-word). I agree with you that Neer and the admins will do nothing because many people here will not care about the racial slur posts or the people spreading terrible ideas or harassing BIPOC.

Again, that's not a "I'll just accept this" moment. To treat it as such is shameful.

1. Again though, that's relating more to the non-consensual aspect of zoophilia. The age and intelligence don't particular matter on their own as factors because both tie into consent (old enough to consent, intelligent enough to consent). But expanding that outwards, I think that this would reach into many other areas of art that involve lack of consent. Could be something as out there as vore, or more real like rape. But the line is drawn where fiction can become reality and how closely the fiction can affect the reality as you have brought up. Vore isn't really an issue because nobody is going out and eating other people (I mean SOME are, but there's a lot of other shit going on in those cases). Zoo is gray enough that I think it really depends on a case-by-case basis because of the real-life applicability that some people take it. Like if someone is getting off to feral dragon porn, I don't particularly see how that is going to play into the mindset of wanting to truly have sex with an irl animal. On the other hand, if someone is making clear and obvious fetishizations of their own pet or trying to act like irl animals have the ability to consent, then shit is fucked and that needs to be banned. To blanket throw fictional zoophilia in the furry community as entirely bad as the Twitter post did simply ignores any further nuanced discussion as you implied we ought to be capable of.

I will concede that FA needs to take its gloves off and address the for sure real life zoo individuals and communities on the site and regulate that more than they do, absolutely, but this just seems like a net being cast so broadly that no actual change is going to happen if people truly want it to.

2. I do think it's disingenuous because, to use your analogy, this would be the equivalent of people being around the time of the USA's founding and not caring about the issue of slavery until much later but being perfectly fine with it up to that point of caring. I mean, if people were quick to leave FA immediately after seeing that zoo was allowed, then I'd say that's at least consistent with their beliefs. But for people to suddenly take an interest in it feels like they're trying to ethically have their cake and eat it too by using FA while talking about how bad it is. Now if someone truly didn't know that this was allowed on FA, then so be it, but my question is how lol.

To say that that definition of sticking feral with anthro is the most shallow doesn't particularly matter if the discussion of zoo stops at the lack of the human ability to consent. Because if that's the case, again, the net is now cast broad enough that any non-consensual art is inherently bad. Consent is a factor of the issue, but real-world influence and to what degree that real-world influence is tied to a specific subject is also important and the core reason why people specifically think things like pedophilia is bad.

"A person drawing pictures of your ultimate murder with sexual gratification is not something we just "let happen" for obvious reasons."

I mean... murder/gore porn is also allowed so I don't see your point here? Tbh I'm probably just misreading this part.

3. To continue using FA kind of IS accepting it though isn't it if it's known that Neer and the admins will do nothing? Like if one continues to support a service/person/franchise/etc even if it goes against their ethics, isn't that at least inconsistent if not hypocrticial?

1. Again, ya there should be discussions around those topics. Vore is a good example of something that has problems with it. How that translates to other areas in life or what lessons is teaches should be questioned accordingly.

If we could ensure that a majority of zoos aren't going to fuck their pets, then ya fictional zoo is w/e. However, most people can own a pet, the culture around zoo is that fucking your pet is fine to different degrees, and there are even well known furries in positions that affect many users of the fandom. Twitter can be un-nuanced all they want, the people making rules and actually dealing with this stuff can be nuanced.
With your position, what actions do you think we should take to deal with such zoos/pedos/etc?

2. I mean ya, I'd call dragoneer one of those founders for fa LOL. However, people have been talking about this for a while, again, it just takes time for info to spread. This happens faster now cause of sites like twitter. Hecky I've been talking about this sort of thing for a long time and regularly get ignored (some of that is my fault I talk a lot about different topics. Everyone can't read all my stuff and sometimes I word things poorly) If nothing gets done then ya, that can seem disingenuous or see #3

I have issues with sexual gore too, although the reason why I think it's lesser is because there are structural means by which such stuff doesn't happen as often. Don't harm others is taught in schools, there are professions that stop such crimes or deal with them afterwards, etc. Would be good for such people to have a therapist though (everyone should have one which would help with such things in terms of stopping harm or ensuring no harm will come from such fantasies) I don't see much necro/gore so I am unsure if the culture around such things is similar to babyfurs or zoos

3. I continue to pay rent cause if I don't I'll be homeless. Doesn't mean I accept the landlords. FA is a bit different cause there are other sites thus you have "choice" but let me go through some stuff

As an artist I:
- Constantly get NSFW FA refs
- Can see if a customer is more likely to be fine from their catalog of commission which are normally stored on FA
- People want to only use notes on FA to communicate for commissions
- People want to reference my work in a particular way, sometimes via FA's : icon : thing
- Some people only keep up with my works via FA

There's some other little stuff but if you look at that list, all of these primarily affect my income when it comes to furry stuff. Anything I affect on this list directly impacts how much I can make.
- If I can't see the ref I don't get paid. If the person only uses FA or doesn't know about the direct link to the image I lose a sale
- I want to make sure I don't spend 5+ hours of work to then get someone who will rip me off. It /will/ happen but I'd like to keep it to a minimum. FA is sadly still one of the best ways to check that.
- Some people really /just/ don't use other methods of communication which is weird ya, but it also means I can't make that bit of income from a silly communication issue
- Without easy reference to my works, there's less click through rates. Less click through rates means less chances for support, affect my bottom line. On a site where furry is the thing people are looking for, this click through is important. This is so well recognized that new furs know to link/cite the source.
- The huge amount of users primarily use FA as a resource for artist. I have a hard time finding artists on other sites besides maybe twitter and I care about this stuff. For a user who doesn't care, they'll only look here. Only looking here means more artist stay here. More artist here mean more users here. Not being here can directly affect the views you get aka the support you get.

Someone like me would be more fine to leave if I wanted to. FA is only my 2nd biggest site. I stay cause again, resources for furry stuff is still here a lot of the time and if I go poof, people won't notice anything happened. It's why I'm even more so delaying posts. A Christmas picture in July is more jarring then me going poof. People try to figure out what happened, they're more likely to leave. I find this much more useful for many areas in life tbh.

This is the same thing as trying to get landlords to be abolished with policy and systems rather than running to the woods to live in dirt. The dirt is more moral, but it doesn't actually stop the landlords and doesn't even improve the person's life. What's the point? It's more ethical to do the dirt road ya, but ethics isn't about bring you to a dirt road, it's about how best to live a life. Unless there's a magic wand to magically get rid of the housing market, ya ain't really escaping shit by being the one pure individual.

Collectively if everyone left and people stayed behind and wanted to use the site when they didn't need to, ya I would agree it's hypocritical. We're not at that point yet lol. With something like postybirb available, I'd honestly probably keep delayed post here as a backup but also as a means to once in a while go "hey this place is bad". I do that with another site currently cause it's a simple thing to do.

Sorry about late response, I've been busy the last few days.

1. Tbh, personally I think it would just be moderation on a case-by-case basis as the most precise solution. Either that or establishing sapience or some other factor or combination of factors as a set of rules. Pedophilia seems pretty straight forward. But zoophilia seems like there would be a lot of cases that would break some factors while others wouldn't break any at all. Like, is feral porn bad? If we say yes, then what if it's a Pokemon or fantasy creature? FLO has kinda tackled this issue with their recent policy on zoophilia, but their nuance on having to have human-looking traits is still kinda vague and I could see there being gray in what that could constitute. I guess time will tell if their policy seems to work well or not.

2. I just personally find it hard to believe that any remotely casual user of FA hasn't stumbled onto some form of feral porn at some point. But that's just me haha.

3. This isn't an apt comparison at all. With rent, you ARE forced to deal with the circumstances you're in or your life is drastically affected in a very clear and direct way. To address your specific points:

"- Constantly get NSFW FA refs"

Tell them that you need refs outside of FA. That's not difficult at all and there are a myriad of other options a commissioner can use to link a reference.

"- Can see if a customer is more likely to be fine from their catalog of commission which are normally stored on FA"

Not really sure what you mean here in terms of what way of being 'fine' you're referring to. In terms of being ripped off, I guess this would be one point I'd be willing to concede for the sake of discussion, but even then FA is more of a guide than a guarantee that isn't perfect as you said.

"- People want to only use notes on FA to communicate for commissions"

Maybe I'm being a bit presumptuous, but at 16k current followers on Twitter, I feel like you would be able to find commissioners on there or other sites who are fine communicating in any other way outside of FA notes.

"- People want to reference my work in a particular way, sometimes via FA's : icon : thing"

Not sure again what you mean, but if you mean being able to reference your gallery, then establishing a gallery off FA that is easy to find would solve that issue with the tools that are available. Sure not as many people would potentially see it for a while without looking further beyond FA, but without knowing a rough estimate on how many people ask to commission you when a commission slot opens up, I can't really say if this issue seems significant or not. If only like a dozen people ask for a commission in total any time you open, then sure, your bottom line definitely matters way more in that instance. But if it's like consistently 50+ people asking for a slot, I think at that point one could afford to abandon those few who refuse to adapt.

"- Some people only keep up with my works via FA"

See above response.

The landlord analogy is not really analogous at all if you yourself are admitting that you would be fine to leave FA if you wanted to. Like, if you don't care about following that route then that is fine, but tbh I would considerate it at least a bit hypocritical and/or lazy to be in a position where you could change a part of your life that you think is unethical and that you advocate against to your followers, but not bother doing so.

"Collectively if everyone left and people stayed behind and wanted to use the site when they didn't need to, ya I would agree it's hypocritical."

But you yourself said you didn't NEED to stay here lol. Why would it matter to the ethics of it what everyone else does?

2. If you browse via artist and favs, there's a good chance you will miss stuff ya. If you always look at browse or are a heavy user you'll def see all the things ya.

3.
- If you get a good customer then ya, you're correct. A ref outside of FA is not hard. But you'd be surprised how many people /only/ use FA and there stance on /only/ using fa is strong. Or it's a hindrance and people forget/just don't do the stuff needed to get the artwork

- I generally see fine as having artwork from different artists, being active still, etc. Seeing these sort of traits increases the rate of things being ok by a lot in my history so far, and you generally find that on fa

- I'm super fine in terms of many of these issues due to my follower range nowadays. Besides my thank you notes on patreon, if I get pushback I can just outright go no. A person with 50 followers on twitter and 100 on fa can't say the same. I'm not the only artist around. Although when I do come across such issues it does still bother me because I ultimately do know there's a chance they'll go poof, which always still sucks still.

- Again, I'm not the only artist. The FA icon isn't super important to most I'd assume. I find it pretty worth while because just saying "made by koorivlf" doesn't really get people to view my stuff unless they /really/ like it. It's why I make sure I have good easy links lol. For someone starting out this is important too.

Also I get around 20+ with people also asking randomly. If I opened commissions at better times I'd get more people. Hopefully not 50+ that seems like way too many forms LOL

- https://Koorivlf.com you can check my numbers off site. I've personally talked to a lot of people too. People know of my other places, a lot of people just /really/ only follow me on FA or twitter. Tumblr was a big one until it died. Telegram is currently growing fast but it's not a gallery so lol


If you make furry content and need range for views, twitter will be one of the first, fa will be another. If you're big enough then sure, Twitter is enough (if they keep nsfw forever which is questionable). FA has a large range as well so not building an audience here is silly. Again, you can go into the woods and be pure, but if the government decides to own that land you can't really do shit. Money is needed too. Sure you can choose a different job with more ease than being homeless but if your job does revolve around something like furry, FA is still a major force.

I don't currently need FA because Twitter is currently stable as far as we know. Again, FA is my biggest second site. If twitter does a dumb thing, FA is my next place to reach people. My ethics are not "I only use things that aren't bad". If I did that I literally couldn't live cause capitalism structurally trends towards making all distribution evil. It's one of the reasons it's hard to get creators off FA, unless they're big and are ok with staking their name to 1 uncontrolled profit driven site, they're going to use FA to some capacity. So right now, ethically it is fine, like I said before.

In the future, if this site had like, 10k users per week, then ya it's weird to stay as your main site and would ethically be wrong unless there was something else you were doing. Currently I don't NEED to be here so I delay my posts, now I delay them even more because that makes people go off the site more or become curious. Education and spreading that information is more ethically sound to me than full up going poof. It also is smarter to do in a capitalist system which again, is bad and evil, but being a good little boy doesn't feed me sadly. You can't be ethical if you're dead.

I'm also not the only artist who has tried to get people to go off FA cause we both know about the "I'm leaving FA forever journals."

Btw, I forgot FA had such a category from it's selection

I can see how you can get a user who takes pictures of the animals on their farm while drawing/commissioning pictures where they physically abuse pets, tag them with numbers, and watch them bleed. All of that while feeling safe to post that on this platform

That doesn't seem like that should be a normal thing

If the concern is over practicing irl zoophiles, then yes, I’d agree that there needs to be more done to address that specific issue and ought not be normal.

Saying “fictional zoophilia” is allowed isn’t controversial to me in a vacuum because all of the nsfw furry fandom can fall under that umbrella.

We don't live in a vacuum and we're adults.

Again, the "fictional zoophilla" the mod was responding to was the multiple drawings of raping a feral dolphin.

If you're addressing specific issues, you'll eventually have to draw a line
Is your line going to allow for the raping of a dolphin like the FA Mod allowed? Are you going to allow the feral images with no context that Zoo uses to get people into zoo by normalizing that "body language of a dog" is fine and everyone is fine with fucking animals cause look at the "non anthro" tab!!!

As someone who only lurks here I don’t have much to lose going somewhere else. Any consensus on the least awful place to go for NSFW furry material? Getting a bit tired of this crap myself.

It's hard to say, sofurry and weasyl I think are fine, it's just that they have low userbases

Most other furry sites have low user bases which causes issues overall. If more people used postybirb this would reduce that issue. If you want to check those sites out I would say go for it. I haven't heard of horror stories about them yet so ya...

Other people are making new sites as well so maybe soon we'll have a very good furry site most love

I read your post and the comments, but I do not understand if you are offended by a specific art and want it removed or if you are offended by all of them.
I understood that you do not approve zoophilia and I agree with you on that. However, banning a specific type of artworks would open the doors to banning the others too. This can eventually lead to the removal of the "normal" images too that belong to more acceptable categories.
What I am trying to say is: if you ban an image because it is of a specific type, then you have to ban all the images that belong to offending/illegal types too, despite them being pure works of fiction.
Illegal behaviours are mentioned in other fictional media too. Without them, you would not have shows like Law & Order and C.S.I. . I understand your indignation and I agree, but I fear the long-term consequences of this action.
Ultimately, as long as it stays fiction and nobody is harmed, I have no problems with it. I agree that a story of a veterinary raping a suffering animal is too mutch though. I do not understand who could like something like that.

I would like artwork that glorifies zoo to be removed ya

We ban pedo art for a reason. You can do the "slipper slope" argument which I don't full disagree with. A lot of definitions move around. However, we do need to address that there is a zoo problem in the furry community that will continue to be a problem if we don't address it. At the very least we need to inform people more about why Zoo is wrong and the signs of it.

When FA says "fictional zoo is fine" to a picture of dolphin rape, that is not dealing with zoo on this platform. When one of the directors of operations is alleged to be a zoo/"former"-zoo, that does not bring a lot of confidence the problem will be addressed. Even if the leadership only has former zoos, they should not be in a high leadership role for a site that has a problem with zoos.

Violence is something to be criticize, however we live in a society that does criticize that violence to some extent. There are resources to know why violence is wrong and people generally say something at the first sign that someone could be violent. It fails a lot but it's still there to some capacity (and need to be expanded upon). Zoos don't really have that mechanism at all, they have some pushback but not /that/ much

Fiction is fine and dandy but when we have a culture/system that turns that fiction into a reality and not much to stop that, we have a problem.

Your comparison with pedophilia is convincing. Ok, I see no reason to disagree with you anymore. I agree with you 100% now.