Being a Chicagoland boy, I happen to be well aware of one story about Chicago elections when one election official said that every single voter voted for the mayor. This got his superior upset, who complained that it would bring in election investigators, and to hurry and change it so there are people who did not vote for the mayor to make everything look clean. If you're saying that there was never any vote fraud, I am reminded of the Monty Python skit where a naval officer says "There is absolutely no cannibalism in the Royal Navy...Jenkins, put that down!"

I didn't say that there hasn't been or wasn't. In fact it's very possible Edgar Allen Poe died due to it. It'd be idiotic to say it doesn't happen (who hasn't heard of the "cemetery vote"?), but it's equally idiotic to say it's occurring on such a massive scale as to affect a presidential election; there's simply not the numbers for it. Further, there's no evidence of it and Trump's own people said the 2020 election was the most secure in US history.

This also ignores the number of Republicans that won in states Trump lost. So I don't understand fraud arguments at all, especially since overturning any election results in a given state would mean overturning all the election results in that state because if someone can vote fraudulently for Biden they can also vote fraudulently for every other candidate including the Republican ones.

Some of your sources are not exactly unbiased. Oh, and Edgar Allen Poe never struck me as being political, other than his mentioning a desire to be preserved so he could see who the President would be in 2045-and this was years BEFORE the US Civil War, when it was uncertain there would actually be one and slavery still existed and the Cabinet of the US President had power over him and his decisions.

Ever heard the old saw "all politics is local"? Some politicians are popular as individuals regardless of party-or become unpopular even among their own party members. Obama only won his US Senate seat when his opponent got destroyed in a sex scandal. Governor Blagojevich ended up becoming so unpopular in Illinois he got impeached and thrown out of office by both parties with no opposition from anybody. That Trump lost in Illinois is no surprise because the Republican party in this state is so weak.

But most telling is that Trump got more votes in 2020 than he did in 2016. The fact that Biden clearly proved to be a senile man unable to campaign tells even more. People wouldn't be smelling the proverbial rat if Trump had lost to a decent candidate with a real agenda.

I have this funny problem with sources: I tell people to look it up themselves and somehow they don't have time-I give them a link and somehow it's always to a biased source. So honestly I don't really care anymore. You can do your own research and come back.

For Edgar Allen Poe, you might want to look up "cooping" in regards to voter fraud.

Why are you even here? Don't you have something better to do with your life?

Well, if you don't want to hear other views don't start political topics.

It's one thing to discuss other views on a topic, quite another to be a boor about it. While I won't block people for being nasty to me, I will block them for being nasty to my friends.

History was already rewritten to leave out any non-White narratives. The US is build on the bones of the people who lived here first, their stolen lands and their deaths. It was an attempt at genocide both physical and cultural with bounties placed on heads like they were animals and subjection that tore children from families, stopped them from learning their language and culture, and jailed anyone who protested. In fact, it wasn't until the 1970's that Natives were able to practice their own religions or even speak their own languages without persecution. It's also built on the back of Black slaves, and others who were treated inhumanely throughout the years.

Ah, yes persecution of us Christians - a justification for everything! Never mind if the Church engages in foul behavior by hiding predatory priests! Never mind if the Church backs authoritarians that make anti-gay, anti-trans laws! Never mind that you, your self see me on a different side entirely and not as a fellow in Christ at all! Imagine more people like that in office! What sort of religious purity there could be by just arresting and reeducating-or killing people like me!

"Even the extremes on the right are largely due to the leftist war on Christianity and by extension, institutions influenced by Christianity." is where I get Christian persecution from. As for the politics, I don't know many people who consider politics religion, though I guess one could consider various stances on issues a form of demagoguery.

If by "denigrate the foundations of America" you mean talk about its genocidal origins, then yes I for one, am in favor of such.

So the biggest genocide in human history, done against my people, my family you're talking about, is totally justified in your book?

And you talk about us like we're brainwashed. If this were true, the US would not have entered in nation to nation agreements with tribes, and even at one point promised to give tribes representation in congress.

The Sand Creek Massacre,
Dakota 38
Wounded Knee Massacre
Long Walk of the Navajos
Trail of Tears
Fort Pitt Smallpox Blankets
Federal, State, and Local governments paying citizens per Indian scalp

To name a few. It was absolutely, uniequivocally, genocide.

Most Native tribes had a much bigger food source than hunting. Many were agricultural societies tailored to each environment, which unlike European farming had far more failsafes. Water was plentiful, unlike it is now where half the rivers are polluted. My people could easily retrieve water at any point in time.

A lot of that access was lost when we were forced into reservations, or you can just keep pretending that we just willingly moved away from dependable water sources and our food practices because you were so idealized and godlike. My sources are directly from family and tribe who have been involved in many legal battles and direct historical tellings of what happened.

Don't forget Europeans were swimming in their own sewage, didn't practice regular bathing, and regularly beheaded each other like the savages you are. You lived in poverty and squalor and keep depending on what few "royalty" you were never actually connected to for your "pride". You were constantly at war with each other too. Does that mean someone should have committed genocide against Europeans? According to your line of thinking, there should have.

I'd tell you about the way the US government deliberately killed the buffalo to starve the people of the plains, but somehow I doubt you'd care. Or bother with checking out any of the events she mentioned.

I would argue she's the only one that has any real insight on the matter being as closely affected as she is, and especially by people like you who refuse to acknowledge the horrors of history. One of the points against King George in the Declaration of Independence is:

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions." (emphasis mine)

All you are proving is that the right doesn't care about real history, or real people, or the real injuries and injustices done to those people. They care about this Fall from Eden narrative where everything was better once but now is terrible. It's untrue and ignores reality, but allows a great deal of latitude when it comes to soothing their consciences.

This country, its institutions, and its founding principles removed the sovereignty of AT LEAST 573 Native nations; took 98% of our land and resources, and I will once again say it because it is a matter of fact: committed genocide.

That list I gave the other individual was not a comprehensive list of atrocities committed against Native people. The definition of genocide is as follows:


1. Killing members of the group;
2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

All of the above apply. Widespread taking of children to boarding schools (again this is something that direct family members of mine dealt with. Then there was the sterilizing of Native women.

To this day pretty much every tribe is attempting to get back land or precious natural resources (some as simple as just clean water) because we were at one point removed or banned from those said resources.

Your earlier statement "the human individual is the fundamental and most important political consideration and has inalienable rights that cannot be unjustly violated by others who hold power over them (the state)." Does that mean anything? Because you don't seem to actually believe it.

it's telling that you think "the left" wants to destroy the country like bawww boo hoo pee pee poo poo. the left wants to resolve income inequality, ineffective healthcare that lets the poor just die driven by commodification, militarized police that kill people of color, the destruction of the literal planet through climate antagonizing resource use, general inefficient resource and wealth distribution and hey yeah maybe improving the lives of indigenous people just a little bit. You consider the most vile, predatory, violent, exploitative facets of america quintessential to its identity and thus resolving those issues is a "destruction" of the country to you. our founding principles were stillborn because it was literal slave owners that thought black people were 3/5 of a human being waxing poetic about life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

how were indigenous people supposed to pursue liberty and happiness as jackson dropped the indian removal act on them? how are black americans supposed to enjoy life and liberty when racism is a structural feature and don't you dare say it's not when the 13th amendment was designed as a loophole to perpetuate slave labor or the fact that googling "redlining" or "tuskegee study" or statistics for convictions of the same crimes for different races immediately verifies that fact. the problem with lauding our "founding principles" while decrying the left is it lays bare the fact that, on some level, you only think certain people should have access to life, liberty and happiness. a nation that promises equal access to those concepts yet historically has structurally engineered itself so that only some people may have access ought to be conceptually destroyed and rebuilt.

also for the record, the definition of genocide is "the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group". this does not just mean deliberate killing although anyone with an actual grasp on history can very plainly see that america kinda has done a lot of murder on indigenous people. the removal and denial of ancestral land to indigenous people, the forced reeducation of indigenous people you know, christianizing them and that thing where we stole their children to put them through schools to teach them english and separate them from their language and customs, the institution of blood quantum [you know, that thing we made up to limit citizenship and track the progress of indigenous people breeding themselves out of existence to make treaties irrelevant, something very genocide-y sounding], all of this counts as efforts to destroy a cultural identity. It's cute that you want to talk about bias and romanticization not being a right to silence people but when your understanding of history is fraught with fallacy and racially motivated ignorance and indifference that perpetuates damage and societal hostility to marginalized people, maybe you should, you know, not talk. Because the things you're saying aren't worth hearing.

I would hesitate to call others biased and illiterate when you're so clearly divorced from reality.

i'd been sitting back and watching the proceedings.

< HeavenSteed > / < LongTom >?
in the event, that either of you return here shortly with alt-accounts; or if you return here under your original accounts (once your stint of suspension has concluded), when you scroll down here to read my addition to this discourse, you can know that i am amidst the many who are glad Action was levied against you.

it is glorious for me, to see your main page shouts be filled with revelry at your respective expenses.

---

that said: punished, though you might be, we-all know neither of you feel remorse; nor can realistically envision "why?" you're wrong.

i don't even know where to begin with you lot...
...except, to sadly arrive to the conclusion: "naught more may be expected from Oppressors; nor from their sympathizers / apologists."

it takes a certain kind of mental illness to want to treat others badly, to the extent they engrain it systemically — such that it endures over the course of centuries, and on-goes to this very day.
it requires a certain kind of Mental Illness, espousing the unflinching ability to justify the activities of those who endeavour to oppress.



like..
..life is already hard enough as it is: the "in-fighting" that we-all can't ever seem to help but engage in—;
;—no one ever needs outsiders butting in, poking the hornets' nest more, using "differences" to justify why they ought to inflict further strife




i need to eat.
in the meantime i'll decide if i want to come back to this or no.

tonya / edgewolf, if you feel like sharing your own thoughts with me, my ears are open.
if nothing else: i'll leave this here, to thank you for putting up the good fight against more bigots / sympathizers (white).

I just wish people weren't posting on their pages. Like what's even the point? To prove we can be as nasty as they are?

it's all a big mess, really — eh indagare¿