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Well, fairly speaking my people tried that already and abused that already. But doing some work indeed could compensate life sentences.
On top of that, again, some leaders of my people in the past have greatly abused the "right" to take the lives of others, given them by law - and hence it probably shows that it's better to not give such right to anybody, ever - in the real life. Real people could have their judgments clouded by feelings and ambitions, and even could make literal mistakes - which, in case of execution, can not be reverted and corrected.
Too much of a responsibility for anybody to bear.
On top of that, again, some leaders of my people in the past have greatly abused the "right" to take the lives of others, given them by law - and hence it probably shows that it's better to not give such right to anybody, ever - in the real life. Real people could have their judgments clouded by feelings and ambitions, and even could make literal mistakes - which, in case of execution, can not be reverted and corrected.
Too much of a responsibility for anybody to bear.
I get your point. But, returning to the trademaster, I think that his actions are well considered and more than proper. Selling off the emergency supply of food is a very stupid act. Moreso, it makes city vulnerable for attrition, should somebody want to besiege or blockade it. Or should draught strike. Or famine. And, as I have already mentioned, this is in the interest of someone who would want to take the city, as it now can be starved in a much shorter period of time. So yeah. This is a treason.
Then you have a person with an axe to grind, has deep knowledge of the inner workings of the place and is more than happy to take an offer that is "too good to be true".
That isn't to say that what he outright did was treason. Just that one set of actions can help their enemies more in the long run, and that if those actions are allowed to build then it can only lead to an outcome that makes them weaker in some way they don't want to be.
That isn't to say that what he outright did was treason. Just that one set of actions can help their enemies more in the long run, and that if those actions are allowed to build then it can only lead to an outcome that makes them weaker in some way they don't want to be.
Maybe. Maybe not. I don't approve of how this difference of opinion was handled. Though I think I'm more bothered by the people who celebrate his methods and suggest that's what people should always do to those with differing opinions. <.<
If there was a crime committed, try him. Throw him in the dungeons. Spiriting him away into a dark room and engaging in witty banter before offing him isn't what a benevolent leader does. It's what a Mob leader does.
If there was a crime committed, try him. Throw him in the dungeons. Spiriting him away into a dark room and engaging in witty banter before offing him isn't what a benevolent leader does. It's what a Mob leader does.
Sometimes the quicker, cheaper and more efficient solution is the better one. We need to punish a person who sold our country's security for money? Done. We need to make sure that the next person on the job will not do the same mistake? That is also check. Dead people make best examples. And speaking of kings and mob leaders. There is much the same between them. We have a powerful person with personal army who extorts money for protection from other bandits and mobs and fights those other mobs for money and influence. See? Nothing different between the two.
Irony of the mob boss line is that seems to be what is the case here. As a reply states. :P
As to the point about having a trial where he is meant to answer for what he has done. In the modern day world and our sense of what is fair or not, that is what makes sense. In the government as it seems to have been shown as, doing that would open things up to making you look week unless if was a show trial designed to make a whole bunch of his enemies look bad.
The way he did it ensured that it was largely swept under the rug and done with the smallest fuss possible. Sure, questions might get asked, but you can deal with those as they let you see who might be trying to plot something. You show weakness to tempt your enemies to hit an easy target in otherwords.
As to the point about having a trial where he is meant to answer for what he has done. In the modern day world and our sense of what is fair or not, that is what makes sense. In the government as it seems to have been shown as, doing that would open things up to making you look week unless if was a show trial designed to make a whole bunch of his enemies look bad.
The way he did it ensured that it was largely swept under the rug and done with the smallest fuss possible. Sure, questions might get asked, but you can deal with those as they let you see who might be trying to plot something. You show weakness to tempt your enemies to hit an easy target in otherwords.
I wish I could have stayed longer and see how this fleshed out in the stream, but I gotta say, now the white linen over the Trade master makes sense. XD
Politics is a "Messy" game. T'is good to see the trade master knows how to keep his image "clean" despite all the filth of politics thrown around. XDD
Politics is a "Messy" game. T'is good to see the trade master knows how to keep his image "clean" despite all the filth of politics thrown around. XDD
In every scene we see the Trademaster he only shows a very narrow spectrum of human emotion. I'm not sure where to place him on the psychopathy spectrum but I think it's very clear his capability for empathy is skewed.
Anyone who is this completely unconcerned while someone is getting beheaded a few meters away to the point where he cares more about his own clothes and his silly monologue definitely has some mental abnormalities and very weak empathy. It doesn't seem like he became this way due to having "seen some shit" either, it's as if everything is a game to him. Telltale signs of psychopathy.
I'm not saying he's a bad character or an evil person, but if I knew him personally I would never be able to fully trust him. The reason why he's benevolent towards the populace might as well be because he considers them pets and administering a City could be just like a giant game of Sim City for him. The only reason why he cares might be because he finds it all entertaining.
Anyone who is this completely unconcerned while someone is getting beheaded a few meters away to the point where he cares more about his own clothes and his silly monologue definitely has some mental abnormalities and very weak empathy. It doesn't seem like he became this way due to having "seen some shit" either, it's as if everything is a game to him. Telltale signs of psychopathy.
I'm not saying he's a bad character or an evil person, but if I knew him personally I would never be able to fully trust him. The reason why he's benevolent towards the populace might as well be because he considers them pets and administering a City could be just like a giant game of Sim City for him. The only reason why he cares might be because he finds it all entertaining.
Better to have an entertained ruler than the one who basks in his own power. Remember, these are medieval times, where death is not something uncommon to see. And there is such a thing as professional deformation. Those who see death every day stop thinking of it as of something shocking or concerning. In fact, would you call me a psychopath, if I would say that after 15 years of traumatology, I have stopped even being sad when somebody dies in front of me? I guess the same goes for soldiers, judges and rulers - the ones who don't just observe the process, but make it happen.And one more note about observation. Gladiator combat was a big entertainment for the time, people loved to see somebody being brutally murdered for fun - that was considered normal, or would all of those people be psychopath too?
I'm not really judging the guy on his merits as a ruler, I'm just trying to figure out wether or not he's a psychopath.
From what I can tell from the context, Val Salia does not seem to be a very martial society. If death and suffering were common I would expect to see more of it.
We have to judge the Trademaster by his environment and he definitely acts rather abnormal in comparison to everyone around him. The Tademaster not giving a shit about someone dying also isn't the only thing that makes him peculiar, if that was the only piece of evidence I would be unconvinced as well. But his entire mannerism is very "detached" from people around him, he clearly doesn't care about the same things as everyone else. He's the kind of guy who would not be particularly phased by extreme situations or people close to him dying. If a bomb was going off close by I wouldn't be surprised if he started looking for a fire extinguisher within seconds, where a normal person would be stunned for a while. It is true that this kind of behavior in extreme situations can be learned (soldiers train for it, so do emergency responders), humans are flexible creatures, but psychopaths generally cope with this kind of stuff better than the average guy.
As I said, he doesn't seem like the kind of person who became this way through experience, it's like he has always been like this.
From what I can tell from the context, Val Salia does not seem to be a very martial society. If death and suffering were common I would expect to see more of it.
We have to judge the Trademaster by his environment and he definitely acts rather abnormal in comparison to everyone around him. The Tademaster not giving a shit about someone dying also isn't the only thing that makes him peculiar, if that was the only piece of evidence I would be unconvinced as well. But his entire mannerism is very "detached" from people around him, he clearly doesn't care about the same things as everyone else. He's the kind of guy who would not be particularly phased by extreme situations or people close to him dying. If a bomb was going off close by I wouldn't be surprised if he started looking for a fire extinguisher within seconds, where a normal person would be stunned for a while. It is true that this kind of behavior in extreme situations can be learned (soldiers train for it, so do emergency responders), humans are flexible creatures, but psychopaths generally cope with this kind of stuff better than the average guy.
As I said, he doesn't seem like the kind of person who became this way through experience, it's like he has always been like this.
That's the weird thing about psychopaths. Some of them are very good at leading, many heads of well known tech companies rank high on the psychopathy spectrum. The problem is that pragmatism and efficiency isn't necessarily to the benefit of those being led. Having entire industries full of people without morals takes its toll, just look at wall street.
I suppose the citizenry of val salia are lucky to have gotten a relatively benign flavour of psychopath. Let's hope their luck lasts.
I suppose the citizenry of val salia are lucky to have gotten a relatively benign flavour of psychopath. Let's hope their luck lasts.
Oddly enough, if you go through the comic, he can be very friendly and plesent. Consider Kass, lets be blunt here, Kass allready worked for him, signed a contract and that sorta thing. Varacroix could easily have kept Kass as a grunt/recrute and just said that this is your duty now, no more running folks out to the indral mountians for travel. Nope, he gave Kass power rank and position, and was willing to increase the pay/rank of Kasses friends too. He trys to be nice when he can, but, hes also fair,. Like he told Kass, you can demand more from me, but, if you do, I have the right to demand more of you as well.
Now thats not to say hes not more than a little odd, but, considering the siduation and the culture as seen so far, hes rather far in the enlightened leadership area. Grain in the middle of a desert is hard to come by, thus making it a heck of a lote bigger a deal that people seem to realize. Willing to bet he would have been a bit less upset about selling off extra smoked fish, than the grain.
Still, be interesting to see what comes of this, and how things play out. I have said it before, I think Varacroix is playing a deep game, and at lest has an idea that some of the other players are not very nice people at all. After all, just to the north of him, hes got 'South beletain' aka Dinlan, wich basicly got invated, most of the adult male population slaughtered, and taken over, cause thay had metal ore. Would make me very interested in keeping hold of my stockpiles, and takeing a very dim view of thoes who risk my home/country for greed.
Now thats not to say hes not more than a little odd, but, considering the siduation and the culture as seen so far, hes rather far in the enlightened leadership area. Grain in the middle of a desert is hard to come by, thus making it a heck of a lote bigger a deal that people seem to realize. Willing to bet he would have been a bit less upset about selling off extra smoked fish, than the grain.
Still, be interesting to see what comes of this, and how things play out. I have said it before, I think Varacroix is playing a deep game, and at lest has an idea that some of the other players are not very nice people at all. After all, just to the north of him, hes got 'South beletain' aka Dinlan, wich basicly got invated, most of the adult male population slaughtered, and taken over, cause thay had metal ore. Would make me very interested in keeping hold of my stockpiles, and takeing a very dim view of thoes who risk my home/country for greed.
A psychopath isn't necessarily always cheerful or always murderous. They just have a distinct lack of empathy for everyone around them and no morals. If they are presented with a number of ways to proceed they tend to choose the one that benefits them the most or they find the most entertaining. If they do something that benefits others it's usually not because they care about the other person but because it benefits themselves in turn or they have decided to make a game out of making other people like them.
Psychopaths often gravitate towards positions of power and their lack of morals can be quite useful in that endeavour. I would say yes, Lord Vetinari was very likely psychopathic, he was a complete pragmatist and when looking at people around him he usually considered first if they were a threat or how they could be useful to him.
Psychopaths often gravitate towards positions of power and their lack of morals can be quite useful in that endeavour. I would say yes, Lord Vetinari was very likely psychopathic, he was a complete pragmatist and when looking at people around him he usually considered first if they were a threat or how they could be useful to him.
A way to understand it, is to realize that to a psyciopath, others are not people, they are things that exist only for there amusment. Thus it is allright to do anything you want to thoes things, its not like thay are important after all.
*chuckles* Spent a bit too much time talking with therapists about all sorta things, and thies sorts of people was one of the things we talked about.
*chuckles* Spent a bit too much time talking with therapists about all sorta things, and thies sorts of people was one of the things we talked about.
Well, truth to be told, keeping an emergency supply is always a good idea. Nobody knows, what can happen next. And selling or tampering with an emergency supply is considered an act of treason in any modern country. More so, it could be a sign of coming war (After all, if you want to besiege someone, you need to make sure they run out of supplies as soon as possible, to negotiate a capitulation). So I am completely with the trademaster here.
There's definitely a lot of shared themes! I actually started reading the Discworld books a while after laying down the characters for OOPs, and yet I somehow didn't catch that there was a Machiavellian "ruler" that operated towards a generally-perceived Greater Good of sorts in both, also whose names start with a V
Think about it from the his point of view. You have the reasons to keep an emergency supply, for the draughts, in the case of famine or war. Now, somebody sells it off and makes your country much more vulnerable for attack or natural disaster. This is usually called a treason and is punished by death in most of modern countries (despite the fact, if it was orchestrated by your enemies or if it was the act of stupidity).
Not actually treason. Treason is doing something for the intent of weakening one's country. He did it because he thought he knew what was best. Even if he was wrong. That's not grounds to murder the guy because you disagree with him. that's called authoritarianism. Dictatorship. Whatever word you like that means keeping power by brute force.
It's not even Sedition! Sedition is something like "The people deserve better than this man! This man is a fool who would have is sit on unused capital rather than use it to benefit the people!" And he'd be saying that to the people to encourage rebellion. Instead he is respectfully voicing his difference of opinion TO the Trademaster directly, instead of talking poorly about him behind his back. There is no excuse for this man to be killed in this way. The absolutely worst thing that should have happened is that he should have lost his job for making a deal his boss disagreed with. And you know too that this is not okay, because otherwise why kidnap him off the streets and murder him in a dark room where no one can see?
Don't go throwing around words like Sedition and Treason when this clearly isn't it.
Don't go throwing around words like Sedition and Treason when this clearly isn't it.
Sedition is overt conduct, such as speech and organization, that tends toward insurrection against the established order. Sedition often includes subversion of a constitution and incitement of discontention (or resistance) to lawful authority.
Wiki link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedition
Treason is criminal disloyalty. Historically, in common law countries, high treason is treason against the state. It was differentiated from petty treason (or petit treason), which was treason against a lesser lawful superior (such as a servant killing his master). Petty treason was restricted to cases of homicide in 1351, and came to be considered a more serious degree of murder.
Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_treason
So it is clear that the guy wasn't trying to overthrow the state, but he was happy to line his own pockets with possible enemies by giving them access to that which belongs to the state.
Wiki link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedition
Treason is criminal disloyalty. Historically, in common law countries, high treason is treason against the state. It was differentiated from petty treason (or petit treason), which was treason against a lesser lawful superior (such as a servant killing his master). Petty treason was restricted to cases of homicide in 1351, and came to be considered a more serious degree of murder.
Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_treason
So it is clear that the guy wasn't trying to overthrow the state, but he was happy to line his own pockets with possible enemies by giving them access to that which belongs to the state.
Of course it's sedition. Sedition is "conduct or speech inciting people to rebel against the authority of a state or monarch." Not all sedition is DIRECT rabble-rousing. When he sold off that grain, he put both Delacroix and Ivenmoth in a much weaker position if war were to come to their door. And it's a medieval world. War is NEVER far from your doorstep. Rather like Vetinari, Delacroix thinks several moves ahead. Think this dude wouldn't present himself as Ivenmoth's saviour after Delacroix was deposed?
What the fool did was possibly "accidental" sedition in service of his own greed, but he was still a seditious little weasel. He decided he knew best how to run the kingdom. Thus, he got dealt with in the typical medieval way of dealing with loudmouthed troublemakers who undermine the kingdom. Expeditiously.
Quit putting modern morality into a medieval setting. It don't work like that.
What the fool did was possibly "accidental" sedition in service of his own greed, but he was still a seditious little weasel. He decided he knew best how to run the kingdom. Thus, he got dealt with in the typical medieval way of dealing with loudmouthed troublemakers who undermine the kingdom. Expeditiously.
Quit putting modern morality into a medieval setting. It don't work like that.
Definatly treason. Also, considering the socio/economic siduation, probably a fair and efective method of dealing with a trator. Yah ya, all he did was steal some grain and sell it to make some money. I hate to say it, in a lot of cultures any crime against the state was considered treason, and, bluntly, a lot of places would use death by torture as the method of exicution. Watch braveheart some time, that bit at the end where thay draged him around by a noose, cut his bits off, gutted him, and all that, that was the common method of exicution for trators in england at the time. Stealing from the state/king was considered treason, thus death by torture. Our 'enlightened' sociaty might find it barberic, but it did work rather well back in the day.
So from me, gotta say, way to go.
As an aside, I should point out, by stealing/selling that grain, he might have cut some of the public support that the trademaster had, wich could result in a lot more innocent people getting killed. After all, if the street thugs and petty crooks are willing to report things that might be suspicious, thats a major help in controling infiltration from enemy governments. Also, consider the comment, "No one important would go hungry, and it would be just a few weeks." AKA, only the little people would die, and thay are not worth having around anyways. Just pin the star of david on them and have done with it.
So from me, gotta say, way to go.
As an aside, I should point out, by stealing/selling that grain, he might have cut some of the public support that the trademaster had, wich could result in a lot more innocent people getting killed. After all, if the street thugs and petty crooks are willing to report things that might be suspicious, thats a major help in controling infiltration from enemy governments. Also, consider the comment, "No one important would go hungry, and it would be just a few weeks." AKA, only the little people would die, and thay are not worth having around anyways. Just pin the star of david on them and have done with it.
Clarify it. Treason is acting against the state (while having some clear responsibilities in protecting it). The guy definitely acted against the state by selling off supplies. More so, it can be used by city enemies to launch a siege. Actually, the more I think of it, the more I consider the fact that it actually was a carefully engineered preparation to war - wheat is easy to grow and is not the most profitable product to ship to other countries. Unless they want to pay extra for it for one or the other reason.
And, willingly or not, the guy has sabotaged cities defences. Seriously sabotaged. How that can not be a betrayal?
And, willingly or not, the guy has sabotaged cities defences. Seriously sabotaged. How that can not be a betrayal?
the question becomes if who he sold it to was an enemy? I don't really see anything to indicate as such. I don't know anything about Armaldein or it's interactions with this city, but based on their behaviors I'm not inclined to think them an enemy. And he didn't necessarily act against the state. It was a surplus, which unless they got invaded, they weren't going to use and it would be wasted. This man actually was being pragmatic in trying to grow the city's economy by selling off the surplus. Also look carefully, it was an offer made by traveling caravans, and a really good offer by that, according to the victim. That to me says that the caravans were already there, and that quite possibly the potential gains elseways from the trade may have been more beneficial to the town and it's population. They just... pay for it, pick it up and leave. no transportation required by the city. Again, doesn't look like any sort of treason to me, just as Valsalia said: the tyrant didn't like his machiavelian plans getting messed up. Which is not to say the victim acted in a seditious or treasonous way: Just that his actions happened to make this tyrant have to readjust his plans. It's like in The Flash, when De Voe ended up killing the Warden because the Warden trying to sell off Barry Allen to Amunet was a wrench in his plans. The warden trying to sell the Flash doesn't make him a traitor to De Voe any more than this man trying to make the city some money by selling the wheat.
You are missing the point. The guy sold off the emergency supplies and made city vulnerable to the siege and attrition. There is absolutely no difference, why, or how he did it. What matters is result, which is very poor. He sabotaged the defences by selling off that surplus and double crossed his king, trying to o hide the fact of those machinations. That sounds pretty treasony for me, no difference, intentionally, or not. And I am glad that you understand that being hungry changes people's opinions on things.
No I see your point completely, I'm just disagreeing with it completely. He did not sabotage defenses when you haven't considered the potential defense value of what was gained. There also is no indication that he tried to hide it. He actually seems like he thinks he did a good thing.
At the end of the day, your trying to justify the actions of a psychopathic tyrant. Val showed us this because up til now we've only seen the man's good side. Now we have a bigger picture.
At the end of the day, your trying to justify the actions of a psychopathic tyrant. Val showed us this because up til now we've only seen the man's good side. Now we have a bigger picture.
Nobody cares about the intent, when the result is the sabotage of your country defences. Actions are judged by their results, and this result is far more beneficial for the enemy, than the country. So yeah, it is a treason. And since the guy managed to disobey direct orders, I doubt that his head was on his shoulders in the first place, when he made a decision to sell those supplies. So nobody lost something they used!
which he listed as the most extreme possibility. Ideally no, as a peasant living there I wouldn't want to starve. But I would want to see what he got in exchange, and how these new resources could be leveraged. The sale has been made at this point. If it turns out to be a good thing, great, the man should be commended, not killed. If not, let's see how we can make lemonade out of these lemons, because at least they got SOMETHING for what they had sold, and again, based on what the man said they got a lot. The money, if it was hard money, could potentially be used to reinforce the city's defenses, making it safer against outside attacks anyway. Alternatively, could be used to improve housing conditions for the peasantry, which would earn him brownie points with the people since he really seems to concern himself with it. I won't say care about it, because I saw someone make a really good argument that the guy is a psychopath and he doesn't have any real empathy. Could be used to improve the fields and update the farming equipment, ensuring a more bountiful harvest in upcoming years. You don't grow as a nation by just sitting on what you have. things have to happen, capital has to move, progress has to be made.
But this is exactly what I mean. He did not got executed for losing something. He got it for lack of sight and undermining the city defense. Also, not following orders, as we see in the start of dialogue. And, more than that, who need a minister that thinks more about his own pockets than about city he was made to protect? This person now has both money and influence, along with the alarming lack of loyalty. He would be a problem. And this way, there is no problem. But yes, he would have served more good by being executed on the eyes of the other ministers, so they would know the reason (we don't want to start a panick, showing to everyone that there is no food would we?)
Everyone is making the assumption that he lined his own Pockets but I'm not so sure. I also don't necessarily question his loyalty, merely his obedience. Just like us, I doubt he knew of this side of his ruler, and he probably didn't hide his activities because he thought he was doing what was best for the city. Hence why, even though he praises his ruler, he also readily offers criticism and attempts to engage in debate. I've read plenty of stories where extremely loyal underlings disobey their rulers for their rulers sake.
Lined his own pockets or not, he is still a trator. If you read through the lore and background thats available, it states bluntly, that in Varacroix's lifetime, several other major trading houses have atempted to take over the city, and take the resources and whatnot for there own. There is an extreamly good reason for having such a large stockpile of grain and such on hand, considering that ValSalia is a target for others. You are also missing a lot thats going on in the background. Just because there has not been a seige recently, does not mean that one is not imenantly posable. Also, the grain was sold to another trading house basicly, so to another state that does not have ValSalia's best interests at heart.
Another point, no matter where the money went, he still went against t he state and has placed the state at risk. I do not know if you noticed, but the city is basicly against the sea, with all the inland area being desert. Pretty much 0 rainfall, do to climatic conditions. The only thing that alows them to feed there people are the 'undergardens' not so sure how well grains grow down there, but, I am willing to bet its not so great. Judging by the map, Valsalia is probably one of the few places that needs to regularily buy things like wheat.
I also have to disagree about the fellow hiding it from Varacroix, it was quite clear he did not expect to be confronted about it, thus his reasoning and explanations. He was trying to cover his ass and get away with it, after getting cought with his hands in the cookie jar.
Another point, no matter where the money went, he still went against t he state and has placed the state at risk. I do not know if you noticed, but the city is basicly against the sea, with all the inland area being desert. Pretty much 0 rainfall, do to climatic conditions. The only thing that alows them to feed there people are the 'undergardens' not so sure how well grains grow down there, but, I am willing to bet its not so great. Judging by the map, Valsalia is probably one of the few places that needs to regularily buy things like wheat.
I also have to disagree about the fellow hiding it from Varacroix, it was quite clear he did not expect to be confronted about it, thus his reasoning and explanations. He was trying to cover his ass and get away with it, after getting cought with his hands in the cookie jar.
Just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I think the author showed us this to specifically point out the trademaster is not a good guy. I think people are quick to throw around the word traitor and from a geopolitical standpoint in today's world that's a dangerously loose definition considering politicians would love to make differing opinions "treason". At the end of the day it's a fantasy world. The story has me intrigued and I think it's a testament to the author that it sparked such debate, but quite frankly I'm over this conversation. I'm thinking it's high time we just let it rest and see how it plays out, yes?
This guy definitely is kin with Lord Vetinari from the Discworld novels. He's the same sort of cheerful tyrant that has a truly radical method of keeping in power - by taking care of the populace better than any would be usurper.
And those that don't like it, or refuse one of his generous offers of rehabilition, are invited to walk through a door...
And those that don't like it, or refuse one of his generous offers of rehabilition, are invited to walk through a door...
As a cheerful and MOSTLY benevolent tyrant. In a medieval setting like this, having a benevolent tyrant running your kingdom is about the best possible outcome for the peasantry - his fortunes will rise and fall with the commoners'. It also is a hell of a way to guarantee job security in a very, shall we say, insecure world.
Dealing with seditious troublemakers expediently is just one of the perks of the job.
Dealing with seditious troublemakers expediently is just one of the perks of the job.
More like this: "Sooner or later the yinglets are going to become more than pests - they'll outbreed us, outnumber us, and become an active threat. So I have two choices: Genocide or alliance. Genocide is wasteful and will probably make me far more enemies than I lose. Alliance means they'll fight for my kingdom, and what better cannon fodder then an army of scavs?"
He gave Kass the rank he's got because he intends him to be the ultimate liaison to the yinglet people. Alliance is the long term goal, and using Kass to strengthen both Ivenmoth AND his hold on power is the checkmate move.
He gave Kass the rank he's got because he intends him to be the ultimate liaison to the yinglet people. Alliance is the long term goal, and using Kass to strengthen both Ivenmoth AND his hold on power is the checkmate move.
Agreed, the Trademaster is by no means a short sighted man! We can gleam from this page that he's very good with foresight and would look to strengthen his ability to be self sufficient int the future rather than simply maintain it. We can see he's got a very strong commitment to his principles with regards to his people, and would be very difficult for someone to bribe; like say someone from another kingdom looking to shackle him so that they could flourish without competing with him. Finding allies with such a strong inflexible position would become harder as other people might be able to more effectively bribe them. So having a developing culture nearby that he could influence and have become a facet of his rule and allies would be an unprecedented opportunity! You're exactly right on the money with that!
There would be a sort of thematic appropriateness in that, given the TF theme of the comic.
Upset the fragile balance of power in merchant houses' schemes for money and influence? Well the guy in charge has body-changing artifacts and a transformation fetish so WHOOPS hope they didn't do something too offensive
And "Wheat Princess" sounds like some sort of old-world farmers' tale that could be all sorts of interesting. Limited to movement within local grain fields, has to stand in water and sunlight for nourishment, makes healthy wheat grow from the ground around her, but her energy and growth aura must be recharged by THAT'S RIGHT YOU GUESSED IT LOTSA HUMPIN'
Upset the fragile balance of power in merchant houses' schemes for money and influence? Well the guy in charge has body-changing artifacts and a transformation fetish so WHOOPS hope they didn't do something too offensive
And "Wheat Princess" sounds like some sort of old-world farmers' tale that could be all sorts of interesting. Limited to movement within local grain fields, has to stand in water and sunlight for nourishment, makes healthy wheat grow from the ground around her, but her energy and growth aura must be recharged by THAT'S RIGHT YOU GUESSED IT LOTSA HUMPIN'
AAA dammit this happens to me like every week-
Now there's a story in my head where some unfortunate traveler passes through a sleepy farming community right after some thieves have stolen a great share of the community's grain supply, is blamed for it, and magic'd up into Wheat-Princess-ness to "atone" for their "crimes" and help the community build up their stores of grain before the winter arrives.
There's a lot of belittling, teasing and judgement from the locals at first, who believe the traveler is just a lying thief, but she naturally begins to find a lot of purpose and satisfaction in making the crops grow around her, and some of the locals begin thinking of her as an appreciated member of the community.
Then of course eventually it's revealed that she wasn't a thief, and the community feels awful about subjecting an innocent traveler to their ire. But winter is still coming, and there's still not enough food for everyone! So naturally the traveler, having grown fond of the people of the community, and her nurturing role within it, decides to stay as she is and continue to help their crops grow quickly and healthy.
There! That should only take a hundred pages or so to hit the big points, so I'll just draw that now because I DON'T HAVE ANY OTHER COMICS TO KEEP UPDATED RIGHT??!?!?
Seriously, I need an extra 72 hours in each day so that I can illustrate these story ideas that are always popping into my head, damn!
Now there's a story in my head where some unfortunate traveler passes through a sleepy farming community right after some thieves have stolen a great share of the community's grain supply, is blamed for it, and magic'd up into Wheat-Princess-ness to "atone" for their "crimes" and help the community build up their stores of grain before the winter arrives.
There's a lot of belittling, teasing and judgement from the locals at first, who believe the traveler is just a lying thief, but she naturally begins to find a lot of purpose and satisfaction in making the crops grow around her, and some of the locals begin thinking of her as an appreciated member of the community.
Then of course eventually it's revealed that she wasn't a thief, and the community feels awful about subjecting an innocent traveler to their ire. But winter is still coming, and there's still not enough food for everyone! So naturally the traveler, having grown fond of the people of the community, and her nurturing role within it, decides to stay as she is and continue to help their crops grow quickly and healthy.
There! That should only take a hundred pages or so to hit the big points, so I'll just draw that now because I DON'T HAVE ANY OTHER COMICS TO KEEP UPDATED RIGHT??!?!?
Seriously, I need an extra 72 hours in each day so that I can illustrate these story ideas that are always popping into my head, damn!
Haha yeah, I was just thinking; what I described is really your thang, isn't it?
I love being able to stick with a single setting and group of characters to develop over the long term, but maaaan I'm always getting new ideas like this, so I can't help but to envy some of the freedom you higher-variety content creators have!
Oh well, since my course is set, guess I just have to throw financial support to people like you to keep that variety coming!
I love being able to stick with a single setting and group of characters to develop over the long term, but maaaan I'm always getting new ideas like this, so I can't help but to envy some of the freedom you higher-variety content creators have!
Oh well, since my course is set, guess I just have to throw financial support to people like you to keep that variety coming!
I wish I was any good at photoshop. Third to last panel is just begging for a Gasmask Goliath edit. http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images.....5/510/dosh.png
How very interesting!! Our esteemed Trademaster makes his return back to the comic, and in a very educational scene yet at that!! Before I get into my huge rundown, I've got to say TOP notch work on this one! The colors, lighting, and outfits in this look amazing! Your work with form is also right on the money! Your rate of improvement when compared to the early pages is nothing short of staggering, and even those early pages looked very good!!
This page just serves to show the Trademaster's keen mind with his understanding of the value on the appeal of his public and his keen intellect. I don't see him entire as an altruist as he seems to hold a very deep understanding of the importance of matters down the road instead of simply doing something for virtue of its action, but that said I don't see this action as showing anything excessively negative about him or out of line. He's got a kingdom to keep in order, and the fellow was acting out of turn. lol that said, I'll say he's an eccentric man for sure. But the fellow brings up a very interesting detail, in that his Father would've taken such deals. If that's the case I think I can start seeing a motive here. I'm not convinced that the relic didn't have an intended use and target that Kass just so happened to get in the middle of. I'm thinking that either the Trademaster wouldn't play ball with someone his farther had a history of dealings with or that the current Trademaster spurned some underhanded offer from a different and less moral territory. The Kingdom the Trademaster presides over is largely self sufficient and the populous are largely loyal to him; outside favors and promises of power wouldn't hold much sway to him. It would make him a problem to anyone with larger plans of Manifest destiny. So information was gathered and his interest in the Yinglet as a developing species was picked up on. Assuming the theoretical group in this scenario caught wind of this and had at least somewhat equal resources, I'd speculate that they went to a group of Yinglet they could bribe and work with to try to assassinate and defame the Trademaster and his supporters. Having him killed by "Scavs" would allow people of a dubious mind to discredit his intellect. For the stone, there's two ways I could see it factoring into this, but without hard evidence, this is just speculation
THEORY 1) This other group found this artifact and intended to use in on the Trademaster to turn him into one of these creatures he showed an interest in. As a Scav, no one would listen to him, so even if anyone did believe this crazy Yinglet when they told them they were the Trademaster, it's unlikely people would believe them or be willing to follow him further. In that position, it would be easy to spin him as some form of mentally deranged obsessive who's own eccentric issues turned him into a Scav, and that he was careless in his own pursuits and his judgement/leadership was also somehow faulty. This requires me to assume however that they've learned of the effects either by use beforehand or some more knowledge of it stored somewhere, which would imply that they have MORE of them. But again, that's baseless speculation that could hamper objective further investigation. This would either end with the Yinglet before having stolen the stone from the intended assassin, OR the Yinglet from before being willingly given the piece and nearly getting caught.
THEORY 2) The assumed party that's dealing with a group of Yinglet promises them some measure of power/resources/influence that would aid them or make them feel a sense of duty for their race to take out this man whose dealing with Vizlet and in any way influencing their culture or civilization. Once radicalized, the group of Yinglet willing to accept the offer/bribe reveal they're sitting on a "secret weapon" of sorts and reveal their possession of artifacts and make their claims of what it can do. With stars in their eyes that they could literally turn this stubborn ruler into a Scav and publicly defame him or his ruling before swaying a large amount of the population through propaganda efforts to erode resistance to their annexing of his territory while still trying to keep their loyalty. I'd think this theory is the more viable option so far as we only need to assume there's a hostile party working against the Trademaster. It would explain why Vizlet has scouts out looking for information as she could be either trying to figure out who gained access to this secret weapon, who stole it/or who owned it, if there's more, or something else that would benefit her or allow her to make a show of good faith by passing on the information to the Trademaster.
Either way, there's a clear motive established in this comic; the Trademaster has a strict policy and way of doing things and doesn't compromise this even in surplus. That would make someone with big plans or looking to ensure his compliance for whatever future reason, instantly at odds with him. He'd be a problem. As for our follicly challenged (and how cranially challenged) defector, I don't really see him as being overtly important or involved in this case or being anything other than a small fish looking to play big; and getting the attention of a shark. I eagerly look forward in seeing how this comic progresses, but I do apologize that I've not left any comments on your work in awhile. They're more than deserving of the praise and speculation!!
This page just serves to show the Trademaster's keen mind with his understanding of the value on the appeal of his public and his keen intellect. I don't see him entire as an altruist as he seems to hold a very deep understanding of the importance of matters down the road instead of simply doing something for virtue of its action, but that said I don't see this action as showing anything excessively negative about him or out of line. He's got a kingdom to keep in order, and the fellow was acting out of turn. lol that said, I'll say he's an eccentric man for sure. But the fellow brings up a very interesting detail, in that his Father would've taken such deals. If that's the case I think I can start seeing a motive here. I'm not convinced that the relic didn't have an intended use and target that Kass just so happened to get in the middle of. I'm thinking that either the Trademaster wouldn't play ball with someone his farther had a history of dealings with or that the current Trademaster spurned some underhanded offer from a different and less moral territory. The Kingdom the Trademaster presides over is largely self sufficient and the populous are largely loyal to him; outside favors and promises of power wouldn't hold much sway to him. It would make him a problem to anyone with larger plans of Manifest destiny. So information was gathered and his interest in the Yinglet as a developing species was picked up on. Assuming the theoretical group in this scenario caught wind of this and had at least somewhat equal resources, I'd speculate that they went to a group of Yinglet they could bribe and work with to try to assassinate and defame the Trademaster and his supporters. Having him killed by "Scavs" would allow people of a dubious mind to discredit his intellect. For the stone, there's two ways I could see it factoring into this, but without hard evidence, this is just speculation
THEORY 1) This other group found this artifact and intended to use in on the Trademaster to turn him into one of these creatures he showed an interest in. As a Scav, no one would listen to him, so even if anyone did believe this crazy Yinglet when they told them they were the Trademaster, it's unlikely people would believe them or be willing to follow him further. In that position, it would be easy to spin him as some form of mentally deranged obsessive who's own eccentric issues turned him into a Scav, and that he was careless in his own pursuits and his judgement/leadership was also somehow faulty. This requires me to assume however that they've learned of the effects either by use beforehand or some more knowledge of it stored somewhere, which would imply that they have MORE of them. But again, that's baseless speculation that could hamper objective further investigation. This would either end with the Yinglet before having stolen the stone from the intended assassin, OR the Yinglet from before being willingly given the piece and nearly getting caught.
THEORY 2) The assumed party that's dealing with a group of Yinglet promises them some measure of power/resources/influence that would aid them or make them feel a sense of duty for their race to take out this man whose dealing with Vizlet and in any way influencing their culture or civilization. Once radicalized, the group of Yinglet willing to accept the offer/bribe reveal they're sitting on a "secret weapon" of sorts and reveal their possession of artifacts and make their claims of what it can do. With stars in their eyes that they could literally turn this stubborn ruler into a Scav and publicly defame him or his ruling before swaying a large amount of the population through propaganda efforts to erode resistance to their annexing of his territory while still trying to keep their loyalty. I'd think this theory is the more viable option so far as we only need to assume there's a hostile party working against the Trademaster. It would explain why Vizlet has scouts out looking for information as she could be either trying to figure out who gained access to this secret weapon, who stole it/or who owned it, if there's more, or something else that would benefit her or allow her to make a show of good faith by passing on the information to the Trademaster.
Either way, there's a clear motive established in this comic; the Trademaster has a strict policy and way of doing things and doesn't compromise this even in surplus. That would make someone with big plans or looking to ensure his compliance for whatever future reason, instantly at odds with him. He'd be a problem. As for our follicly challenged (and how cranially challenged) defector, I don't really see him as being overtly important or involved in this case or being anything other than a small fish looking to play big; and getting the attention of a shark. I eagerly look forward in seeing how this comic progresses, but I do apologize that I've not left any comments on your work in awhile. They're more than deserving of the praise and speculation!!
Let me add a third posability to your theorys, a fairly simple one as it is. The yinglets know about the artifacts, and are trying to collect them, posably for there own use. Consider the amount of help that Kass can give to the Val Salia enclave if she puts in any sort of effert at all. Heck, just introducing basic schooling would probably double servival rate for thoes that make it out of childhood. The 'high elders' posably want the artifacts to transform specific members of other races into yinglets to gain advantage of there knowladge. Thus the reason Narklet is in ValSalia, and the yinglet that original had the artifact was not willing/wanting to give it up, perhaps there is another yinglet faction aposed to the elders. Theres not enough information to really form a definative idea.
A very good theory! If that's the case, I'd have to say it's a faction of Yinglet that are in some way competitive or estranged from Vizlet as she's fairly well vindicated herself from involvement through her actions and general disbelief of the goings on so far. But that's a very interesting idea!
Probably the 'tradishanalists' or at lest the ones that sent Narklet up. Theres a heck of a lot going on in the background, most of it hidden save for faint hints now and again. Varacroix himself seems to be indicating time and again that theres something nasty going on in the background, and hes trying to prepair for it. Thats part of his interest in Kass actualy, he knows theres something going on with thies trinkets that are showing up, and I expect he knows that there are several groups trying to get ahold of them, the Yinglets are just one. I should also point out, that Varacroix has had to deal with several atempts to take over Ivanmoth, it was stated in one of the info pages if I remember right? Thay took his interest in scolastics as him not having a head for business, or the heart to do what had to be done, and he took them to the cleaners. you bet your rear his grain stores are of major importance to him, same with the good will of the general population.
ALso considering the yinglet factions, I can see at lest three, at present, if not four.
One, Vislet and thoes who agree with her.
two, The tradishinalists
three, The High Elders, who might also include the tradishanalists, its why I say maybe four.
And four, the outlaws/outcasts, such as this Brakka yinglet that wanted Lopin to hold onto the artifact for him.
And thats just the ones that have been mentioned in the comics so far! Goodness knows how many others there might be, never mind the human factions, I can be pretty sure that any human government/ruling body wants a peice of the action too, never mind all the other groups in each country that would want a part of it, if only to keep someone else from having it.
So be interesting to see how things go. I would love to see this plans for the comic written out some way, might make a lovely book.
ALso considering the yinglet factions, I can see at lest three, at present, if not four.
One, Vislet and thoes who agree with her.
two, The tradishinalists
three, The High Elders, who might also include the tradishanalists, its why I say maybe four.
And four, the outlaws/outcasts, such as this Brakka yinglet that wanted Lopin to hold onto the artifact for him.
And thats just the ones that have been mentioned in the comics so far! Goodness knows how many others there might be, never mind the human factions, I can be pretty sure that any human government/ruling body wants a peice of the action too, never mind all the other groups in each country that would want a part of it, if only to keep someone else from having it.
So be interesting to see how things go. I would love to see this plans for the comic written out some way, might make a lovely book.
Welp, his arguments were so good, he literally lost his head about them!
While many people whine in comments of how "unreasonably cruel" Viracroix is, I think there's more to the situation than meets the eye.
Starting with other little projects our "beheaded" trader was probably running on a side, of course "all in the good name and prosperity of the city", which didn't lie or outright were standing in the way of Trademaster's plans.
And whike in our world and time, the easiest way was to just fire the guy, and he'll be nothing of a threat to the ruller, at that time of era, connections meant everything. Be it buisness or family.
So if Viracroix would've simply fire the guy, he might've sided with Vi's enemies, knowing all too much about ins and outs of the place.
Well, what can I say? Harsh times require harsh decidions. And when you steal from the boss, be ready to get your head rolling.
While many people whine in comments of how "unreasonably cruel" Viracroix is, I think there's more to the situation than meets the eye.
Starting with other little projects our "beheaded" trader was probably running on a side, of course "all in the good name and prosperity of the city", which didn't lie or outright were standing in the way of Trademaster's plans.
And whike in our world and time, the easiest way was to just fire the guy, and he'll be nothing of a threat to the ruller, at that time of era, connections meant everything. Be it buisness or family.
So if Viracroix would've simply fire the guy, he might've sided with Vi's enemies, knowing all too much about ins and outs of the place.
Well, what can I say? Harsh times require harsh decidions. And when you steal from the boss, be ready to get your head rolling.
Technicly, under the sociaty thay have in the comic, what he did is treason. Stealing from the state is, bluntly put, treason, and punishable by death. Heck, in some cases its still that way in modern times. Its easy to say, OMG he just had that guy murdered. Yet, if you think about it, that guy was willing to murder hundreds, because thay did not qualify as people in his eyes. In a way, I wish our legal system would use that reasoning at times. Be a lot less murders and criminals on the streets if thay where killed instead of getting more rights than there victims.
That tenth panel reminded me of this : https://youtu.be/N9K2p54k9GA?t=11m45s
11:45 to 11:55 for relevant scenes.
Great job as always, and honestly this guy's much nicer than I am in "Tropico" :) .
11:45 to 11:55 for relevant scenes.
Great job as always, and honestly this guy's much nicer than I am in "Tropico" :) .
Highly unlikely. More like a ruler who is very aware that without much of a standing army it wouldn't take much for the people to decide to do that to him. I'd say it's purely self preservation, except I get the feeling he has other machinations afoot as well that require the people's trust.
I wonder if the Trademaster would have executed this official if he'd been more sympathetic--for example by offering to repurchase the sold grain himself (perhaps yielding a nice profit), or at least not being utterly classist. Was their conversation just for Viracroix's amusement, or did the debate they had actually matter?
That was a nice touch. Recall (if you've ever read any of Terry Pratchett's stuff) that Lord Vetinari was actually a member of the Assassin's Guild. That was extra job security: No Assassin from the Guild would take a contract on one of its own members in good standing. Anyone that tried quickly found themselves in exactly this position - on the business end of a Guild blade.
Viracroix may be a Trademaster but guy's an Assassin Guild member at heart. He certainly has their sense of style....and black humour. ^.^
Viracroix may be a Trademaster but guy's an Assassin Guild member at heart. He certainly has their sense of style....and black humour. ^.^
I've known about this comic for almost a year now, and just figured that I'd get around to reading it whenever. I mean, I assumed that it would at least be good, but I didn't have massive expectations. Still, I got around to reading it the other day and I've probably read it four or five times now. The art is fantastic, the characters are fleshed out and believable, the humor is great and the story is interesting. I always love good world building to, so it gets points for that as well. It has to be one of the best comics that I've read in a long time and it's certainly one of my favourites now. Keep it up, because it's really, really good!
Eyyyy, excellent! I get the feeling this is very much a "I'm sorta aware of it and maybe I'll give it a read sometime" sort of comic for a lot of people, as it's a story I hear a lot. Just means that you got an extra year of pages when you started!
One way or another, really glad this story has been able to deliver so much Goodstuff for you; in this era where thousands of comics are easily available for reading, including big-name publications like Marvel and DC, it's really humbling and rewarding whenever I hear this comic is in anyone's personal top 10 list.
That's one reason I am indeed going to keep this up until it reaches its thrilling conclusion! Oh boy do I have so much story left to tell.
One way or another, really glad this story has been able to deliver so much Goodstuff for you; in this era where thousands of comics are easily available for reading, including big-name publications like Marvel and DC, it's really humbling and rewarding whenever I hear this comic is in anyone's personal top 10 list.
That's one reason I am indeed going to keep this up until it reaches its thrilling conclusion! Oh boy do I have so much story left to tell.
Haha oh man that's a real compliment! Plus it's always reassuring to hear when people are enjoying it despite not being a big TF enthusiast. Confirms that I was right to use TF mainly as a narrative/character-driving element instead of straight fetish fuel in this story.
Well, check out my own story. It started out as a mawplay fetish story, but I let the *characters* drive it rather than the *fetish*, and it turned into something that the recipient was struck dumb about when she read it. You do the same, and it's a vastly better story for it. It's not like transformation aspect is absent, after all. Kass' many peccadilloes are fun for both transform and non-transform fans alike.
(Full disclosure: My mate is a transform fan and she quite enjoys the story too!)
(Full disclosure: My mate is a transform fan and she quite enjoys the story too!)
Man, I can NOT tell if I should trust Viracrox or not! I am still debating if he's going to be an antagonist or red herring!
However he appears to have his people's, yinglet's, and Baxxid's, best interest at heart. Definitely going above and beyond to keep their trust. Yet we are left to question his mental state considering what just happened.
I'm already more invested in this medieval, royal character than most high budget movies! This should be a crime!
However he appears to have his people's, yinglet's, and Baxxid's, best interest at heart. Definitely going above and beyond to keep their trust. Yet we are left to question his mental state considering what just happened.
I'm already more invested in this medieval, royal character than most high budget movies! This should be a crime!
I've also been meaning to ask if that weapon in the 10th panel is meant to resemble the saltreeds used to beat violent disagreers seen in Entry 7 of the Val Salian Regional Field Guide. They have a similar shape.
Good point.
different species can have all kinds of blood colors:
https://animalhow.com/animals-blue-.....w-blood-color/
Yinglets are (strange) mammals, so probably red, but the others are a crapshoot.
different species can have all kinds of blood colors:
https://animalhow.com/animals-blue-.....w-blood-color/
Yinglets are (strange) mammals, so probably red, but the others are a crapshoot.
Yeah, so remember when I said Viracroix is my favorite character? Yeeeeaaaaah… can't say it has changed.
As much as I like Kass as the troubled yinglet that he is and Elim the good-natured, stand-by-me friend, Viracroix still sparks the most intrigue in his ways. He seems like an intelligent man with a stable mind, yet here he is unphased by the brutal murder of a merchant. It's like business as usual. I guess he wasn't lying when he said he was only bloodthirsty as required and he sure was bloodthirsty looking at his delighted smile to get prepared for it and I'm assuming in this moment that was required.
I guess I don't have much to add, but wow! Lately has there been a lot of interesting devolpments. Too many, that I don't know how to manage. I mean, I don't know what this scene does for the plot other than tell us a little more about our favorite character Viracroix, but we still have other scenes that have yet to show their importance like the yinglets miraculously starting a fire and that mysterious white light that likes to wake up Kass now and then. What the hell is going on!
I guess I'll just have to "tune in next time." 😏
As much as I like Kass as the troubled yinglet that he is and Elim the good-natured, stand-by-me friend, Viracroix still sparks the most intrigue in his ways. He seems like an intelligent man with a stable mind, yet here he is unphased by the brutal murder of a merchant. It's like business as usual. I guess he wasn't lying when he said he was only bloodthirsty as required and he sure was bloodthirsty looking at his delighted smile to get prepared for it and I'm assuming in this moment that was required.
I guess I don't have much to add, but wow! Lately has there been a lot of interesting devolpments. Too many, that I don't know how to manage. I mean, I don't know what this scene does for the plot other than tell us a little more about our favorite character Viracroix, but we still have other scenes that have yet to show their importance like the yinglets miraculously starting a fire and that mysterious white light that likes to wake up Kass now and then. What the hell is going on!
I guess I'll just have to "tune in next time." 😏
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