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What movie has been more over-hyped than 2009's Avatar? I don't know, but few movies are as generic and bland as James Cameron's Avatar.
3D = the cheesiest gimmick to ever disgrace cinema
Art once again goes to
ixerin <3
3D = the cheesiest gimmick to ever disgrace cinema
Art once again goes to
ixerin <3
Category Scraps / Animal related (non-anthro)
Species Dinosaur
Size 691 x 695px
File Size 74.7 kB
Listed in Folders
Hyped?, People actually paid to see it, that's not hype, that's just hitting the nail on the head :]
We can argue it "suffers" of the same symptoms of World of Warcraft: absofuckinglutely repeated elements taken from everywhere, bland, unoriginal... but executed outstandingly. As a result they outsold all their competition.
You know, it is so common to be mediocre, that being excellent constitutes originality, so you can say that Avatar and WoW are still original, at least in that respect.
We can argue it "suffers" of the same symptoms of World of Warcraft: absofuckinglutely repeated elements taken from everywhere, bland, unoriginal... but executed outstandingly. As a result they outsold all their competition.
You know, it is so common to be mediocre, that being excellent constitutes originality, so you can say that Avatar and WoW are still original, at least in that respect.
Let me tell you the difference between formulaic and plagiarism.
A story about a wheelchair bound paraplegic who used the machine that put him to sleep and he would then wake up in the body of a strange blue alien. He enters the other body by falling asleep in the machine and then returns to his human body when he falls asleep in his alien body. Over time he becomes less concerned with humanity and eventually leaves them entirely to live on another world in his new body.
You think I just summarized Avatar? Nope. I just summarized a short story by 1950s sci-fi author Poul Anderson. entitled 'Call Me Joe'. I am not exaggerating, that is the exact plot of Poul Anderson's 1957 short story and I've read it several times over the years.
A story about a wheelchair bound paraplegic who used the machine that put him to sleep and he would then wake up in the body of a strange blue alien. He enters the other body by falling asleep in the machine and then returns to his human body when he falls asleep in his alien body. Over time he becomes less concerned with humanity and eventually leaves them entirely to live on another world in his new body.
You think I just summarized Avatar? Nope. I just summarized a short story by 1950s sci-fi author Poul Anderson. entitled 'Call Me Joe'. I am not exaggerating, that is the exact plot of Poul Anderson's 1957 short story and I've read it several times over the years.
Avatar's plot has more to it than that. I'm not saying it's deep, but there's more elements composing the whole plot than a crippled guy entering an alien body in his sleep (Call Me Joe); or said guy becoming one with the enemy after living with them (Dance With Wolves). For example there's the whole world of Pandora (Ferngully?).
Let me take again Blizzard entertainment as an example. Compare the Zerg and the Tyranids of Warhammer 40K, I won't bore you describing how both are basically the same. There's more to Starcraft than the Zerg, but then again there's more things where you can draw parallels with, like Starship Troopers (again touching on the Zerg topic).
Everything has been invented at some point before. There's countless settings that have 'ripped off' Lord of the Rings for example. But it sounds more politically correct to say they've been inspired by it, doesn't it?. And in a sense we can say they actually have. As long as they add more things of their own and reinvent the story with a different twist, then it is NOT plagiarism, it CAN'T be, it DOESN'T fit the definition of plagiarism, which is taking credit for someone else's work, passing it as your own. Cameron didn't do that, he borrowed A LOT from other people's work, but he did his own work after all, even if heavily reminiscent of someone else's, he added his own twist, and he also mixed all those elements in a unique way. That's why his work isn't plagiarism.
And why I say it's formulaic?. Well... I felt the axis of the story was very formulaic, the antagonism developed therein, the stereotypes: gullible scientist stereotype, greedy businessman stereotype, tough military guy stereotype, etc.
Nevertheless it still had a few quite unique things.
Let me take again Blizzard entertainment as an example. Compare the Zerg and the Tyranids of Warhammer 40K, I won't bore you describing how both are basically the same. There's more to Starcraft than the Zerg, but then again there's more things where you can draw parallels with, like Starship Troopers (again touching on the Zerg topic).
Everything has been invented at some point before. There's countless settings that have 'ripped off' Lord of the Rings for example. But it sounds more politically correct to say they've been inspired by it, doesn't it?. And in a sense we can say they actually have. As long as they add more things of their own and reinvent the story with a different twist, then it is NOT plagiarism, it CAN'T be, it DOESN'T fit the definition of plagiarism, which is taking credit for someone else's work, passing it as your own. Cameron didn't do that, he borrowed A LOT from other people's work, but he did his own work after all, even if heavily reminiscent of someone else's, he added his own twist, and he also mixed all those elements in a unique way. That's why his work isn't plagiarism.
And why I say it's formulaic?. Well... I felt the axis of the story was very formulaic, the antagonism developed therein, the stereotypes: gullible scientist stereotype, greedy businessman stereotype, tough military guy stereotype, etc.
Nevertheless it still had a few quite unique things.
But Blizzard openly stated that the Zerg and Terran were inspired by Robert A. Heinlein's book 1950s novel Starship Troopers (which bears no resemblance what so ever to that dumb attempt at satire that called itself a movie adaptation). Also, video games have it in their nature to pay homage to movies/books because it's material the gamer is familiar with.
With Aliens James Cameron also cited Starship Troopers as the inspiration, but in that case he really was taking his own spin on it using only a few references to the book. For Avatar James Cameron has never acknowledged any inspiration sources other than Dances With Wolves. Why not cite his other inspirations? Oh right: because Poul Anderson is dead and can't personally press charges.
And if just changing a premise and making it your own isn't plagiarism if its still essentially the same idea, why is it that in 1985 James Cameron was successfully sued after a writer from The Outer Limits presented that he'd stolen the concept of a robot sent back in time to kill a future leader?
If you've listened to some of James Cameron's interviews you'll find the man is dead set on trying to pass Avatar off as a collection of new ideas
With Aliens James Cameron also cited Starship Troopers as the inspiration, but in that case he really was taking his own spin on it using only a few references to the book. For Avatar James Cameron has never acknowledged any inspiration sources other than Dances With Wolves. Why not cite his other inspirations? Oh right: because Poul Anderson is dead and can't personally press charges.
And if just changing a premise and making it your own isn't plagiarism if its still essentially the same idea, why is it that in 1985 James Cameron was successfully sued after a writer from The Outer Limits presented that he'd stolen the concept of a robot sent back in time to kill a future leader?
If you've listened to some of James Cameron's interviews you'll find the man is dead set on trying to pass Avatar off as a collection of new ideas
About Cameron being successfully sued for plagiarism with Terminator: that very trial and its result do not mean that having a similar idea to someone else and implementing it constitutes plagiarism; otherwise, what happens if you genuinely came with an idea of your own that's nearly identical to someone he came up with before?. Even the commenter of the red letters in this URL admits that such thing could happen http://www.terminatorfiles.com/medi.....sfacts_013.htm , and suggests, and I concord with his theory, that actually the greatest problem here was that Cameron admitted in an interview that he drew inspiration from two chapters of The Outer Limits, so he opened a ground ripe for lawsuits.
This time James Cameron hasn't admitted that he was inspired by Call Me Joe, but given the compelling precedent, I'll have to agree with you that he is likely trying to pass off that premise of Avatar as something that he simply came up with, when he actually did read Call Me Joe and used it for inspiration. However this could also not be the case (i.e.: the fact that someone, for example, has always lied, doesn't mean that when he says something it is another lie, it is just reasonable to assume he is still lying); if the case is that he's hiding information, I agree that's quite dishonest.
HOWEVER, I expect you to also admit that it's perfectly legitimate to have a story very similar to someone else's (even nearly identical) to not be called a plagiarist unless it's proven that he really copied that other person. Not everyone reads books often, not everyone is exposed to all the relevant popular culture in the form of articles, magazines, and whatnot. It's perfectly possible for someone to grow without a large external influence (TV, books) and with his own originality arise with an idea that someone invented before; otherwise how did the first person give birth with the first idea in a line of ideas when there was no one to "plagiarize"?.
This time James Cameron hasn't admitted that he was inspired by Call Me Joe, but given the compelling precedent, I'll have to agree with you that he is likely trying to pass off that premise of Avatar as something that he simply came up with, when he actually did read Call Me Joe and used it for inspiration. However this could also not be the case (i.e.: the fact that someone, for example, has always lied, doesn't mean that when he says something it is another lie, it is just reasonable to assume he is still lying); if the case is that he's hiding information, I agree that's quite dishonest.
HOWEVER, I expect you to also admit that it's perfectly legitimate to have a story very similar to someone else's (even nearly identical) to not be called a plagiarist unless it's proven that he really copied that other person. Not everyone reads books often, not everyone is exposed to all the relevant popular culture in the form of articles, magazines, and whatnot. It's perfectly possible for someone to grow without a large external influence (TV, books) and with his own originality arise with an idea that someone invented before; otherwise how did the first person give birth with the first idea in a line of ideas when there was no one to "plagiarize"?.
Okay, I'll agree with you on that. The movie has mainstream appeal. It has special effects that dazzle even if the plot itself is flat. I will not deny that I was seldom if ever bored during its 2 hour 40 minute running time. It isn't "Best Screenplay/Story" material , but that's beside the point: it made money due to following formulas people weren't afraid of.
What peeves me is that James Cameron said that the sci-fi ideas in Avatar were what he read as a child in the 1950s with his own spin....He said this when he should have been acknowledging Poul Anderson for coming up with a primary idea behind his film. With Aliens he freely admitted to being inspired by Heinlein's Starship Troopers, even referencing the book within the film ("Bug hunt", having female dropship pilots) and also the old sci-fi monster flick Them! about the giant ants that the military sets out to stop because they were popular during his childhood.... I just wish that James Cameron would stop stroking his ego and just come clean that Avatar, like Aliens was heavily influenced by the ideas of 1950s sci-fi, and in this case, the works of Poul Anderson (who for that matter also wrote many tales on environmental awareness and how man would destroy the earth- James Cameron didn't take any of those, but Poul did write similar ideas on the whole to the ones in Avatar)
As of this moment the Science-Fiction Writers Hall of Fame (Or is it just the Science Fiction Hall of Fame?), which Poul Anderson was the president of during the 1970s, and the Anderson family have supposedly been preparing a lawsuit. Whether they win or not I feel James Cameron still needs to acknowledge that he was inspired by the good work of an almost forgotten author.
What peeves me is that James Cameron said that the sci-fi ideas in Avatar were what he read as a child in the 1950s with his own spin....He said this when he should have been acknowledging Poul Anderson for coming up with a primary idea behind his film. With Aliens he freely admitted to being inspired by Heinlein's Starship Troopers, even referencing the book within the film ("Bug hunt", having female dropship pilots) and also the old sci-fi monster flick Them! about the giant ants that the military sets out to stop because they were popular during his childhood.... I just wish that James Cameron would stop stroking his ego and just come clean that Avatar, like Aliens was heavily influenced by the ideas of 1950s sci-fi, and in this case, the works of Poul Anderson (who for that matter also wrote many tales on environmental awareness and how man would destroy the earth- James Cameron didn't take any of those, but Poul did write similar ideas on the whole to the ones in Avatar)
As of this moment the Science-Fiction Writers Hall of Fame (Or is it just the Science Fiction Hall of Fame?), which Poul Anderson was the president of during the 1970s, and the Anderson family have supposedly been preparing a lawsuit. Whether they win or not I feel James Cameron still needs to acknowledge that he was inspired by the good work of an almost forgotten author.
It was overhyped and successful because it pandered to the masses. :|
I think of it as a similar phenomenon to organized religion - incredibly successful and has a huge number of followers precisely because it appeals to so many (usually weak) people's deepest needs. Movies like this are much the same: not a whole lot of substance to them, look pretty on the surface and appeals to many people's senses, but rife with flaws underneath.
I think of it as a similar phenomenon to organized religion - incredibly successful and has a huge number of followers precisely because it appeals to so many (usually weak) people's deepest needs. Movies like this are much the same: not a whole lot of substance to them, look pretty on the surface and appeals to many people's senses, but rife with flaws underneath.
Well...I did like Modern Warfare 2 :x I think that was more anticipation than hype. I don't think anyone was really saying Modern Warfare 2 was going to be some "super special gonna change the world of gaming" deal.
Avatar on the other hand had all these people making bold claims that it was some sort of "Movie that changes everything". I hated it. I hate 3D. I hate how the movie thought complex special effects could replace an actual plot.
Avatar on the other hand had all these people making bold claims that it was some sort of "Movie that changes everything". I hated it. I hate 3D. I hate how the movie thought complex special effects could replace an actual plot.
Avatar was no different than any other modern take on an old story really, but the fact that it's makers revolutionized CGI and animation technology in such an extreme way not seen in cinema since Jurassic Park in 1993 I would say that any hype (though I didn't notice any hype until after the cinema release) was well deserved.
If you want to see real over-hype should just look at the Call of Duty series xD
If you want to see real over-hype should just look at the Call of Duty series xD
Avatar didn't use special effects to enhance its story. Special effects do not make a story. Sam Worthington was a dullard, the good members of the cast weren't given enough meat to chew on, and Cameron clearly put more thought in special effects than logic, or originality.
btw Call of Duty doesn't even begin to compare to hype or the egomania behind the Halo franchise :P
btw Call of Duty doesn't even begin to compare to hype or the egomania behind the Halo franchise :P
Well I feel for a movie to play the "At least its pretty" card it needs to be 2 hours or less. Avatar at 2 hours 40 minutes (and an even longer director's cut) is just too long for me to play the "Well it's pretty!" card >.>
It doesn't "suck" but I don't see it as the "game changer, movie event of the century" everyone keeps claiming it to be.
It doesn't "suck" but I don't see it as the "game changer, movie event of the century" everyone keeps claiming it to be.
it certainly is not, that i agree with you.
however, the movie looked pretty and even though the plot was almost exactly like dances of wolves but with less depth and all, i found myself entertained enough that i didn't mind the 2 hours 40 minute length. so it was a good enough movie for me.
naturally, i especially enjoined the dragon-thingie-flying parts and of course the action sequences at the end with those kickass human piloted robots and all that.
but a "game changer" or "movie event of the century" it is not. give it a few more years and most other movies will have similiar effects, looking just as pretty but with better plot or action sequences or other better qualities, and avatar will quickly fade into the background.
however, the movie looked pretty and even though the plot was almost exactly like dances of wolves but with less depth and all, i found myself entertained enough that i didn't mind the 2 hours 40 minute length. so it was a good enough movie for me.
naturally, i especially enjoined the dragon-thingie-flying parts and of course the action sequences at the end with those kickass human piloted robots and all that.
but a "game changer" or "movie event of the century" it is not. give it a few more years and most other movies will have similiar effects, looking just as pretty but with better plot or action sequences or other better qualities, and avatar will quickly fade into the background.
That's my point exactly. While not a bad movie or really that boring of a movie it isn't a game changer. It has its special effects, but once those effects become common it really won't be as relevant to audiences anymore.
What killed me for it most was the hype which I found uncalled for.
What killed me for it most was the hype which I found uncalled for.
truth to be told, i didn't pay that much attention to the hype prior seeing the movie in the cinema.
i just saw the trailer of the movie, which had those really cool looking dragon thingies in it AND mechs being piloted by soldiers. so basecally, the trailer showed me two things that i absolutely loved, which was reason enough for me to go see it and i really did enjoy it.
that enjoyment was short lived however because then the hype got to me. everyone made such a fuss about the movie which was getting on my nerves. it started with people giving the movie bad critics on things that i thought to be utterly stupid, like the heavy use of CGI (well duh, i think the trailer advertised it as a CGI-fest) or... ugh... some people actually started arguing about how the main character loses his "humanity" at the end of the movie as he abandons his human body for the avatar body... how friggin stupid is that, i ask? i mean, if you have the choice between your human body forever bound to a wheelchair or an alien body with working legs, which would you pick?
i guess arguments like that are philosophically in some weird way, but making these arguments over a sci-fi flick? please... *rolls his eyes*
the fuss about this crap didn't even really die down when suddenly every idiot started he'd been a na'vi all along or stupid stuff like that... mixed with all the "this is the greatest movie ever" guys... it really got on my nerves.
well... i guess some people are just plain stupid... which wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing if they wouldn't be so annoying to go with it...
i just saw the trailer of the movie, which had those really cool looking dragon thingies in it AND mechs being piloted by soldiers. so basecally, the trailer showed me two things that i absolutely loved, which was reason enough for me to go see it and i really did enjoy it.
that enjoyment was short lived however because then the hype got to me. everyone made such a fuss about the movie which was getting on my nerves. it started with people giving the movie bad critics on things that i thought to be utterly stupid, like the heavy use of CGI (well duh, i think the trailer advertised it as a CGI-fest) or... ugh... some people actually started arguing about how the main character loses his "humanity" at the end of the movie as he abandons his human body for the avatar body... how friggin stupid is that, i ask? i mean, if you have the choice between your human body forever bound to a wheelchair or an alien body with working legs, which would you pick?
i guess arguments like that are philosophically in some weird way, but making these arguments over a sci-fi flick? please... *rolls his eyes*
the fuss about this crap didn't even really die down when suddenly every idiot started he'd been a na'vi all along or stupid stuff like that... mixed with all the "this is the greatest movie ever" guys... it really got on my nerves.
well... i guess some people are just plain stupid... which wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing if they wouldn't be so annoying to go with it...
Well...I have no problem with the protagonist giving up his cripple body. What I have a problem with is the fact that I found him to be a selfish jerk of a person who was incredibly selfish.
The body belonged to his dead brother and I don't think he ever even acknowledged that his brother belonged there and not him- okay he might have but he seemed entirely uncaring. When does he start caring about the aliens? After he gets some sex. Worst of all he starts a freaking FULL SCALE WAR which in all logical examples would have no good outcome for the local population. I'm sure the native tribes they were based on will tell you war is not a good idea for how to handle a superior force...especially if the next battle will likely be orbital nuking if the thing had common sense.
Seriously, James Cameron wanted to make some statement about the Native Americans...And he has his main character do something as stupid as declaring war on the human force when it is clearly established they have no immediate plans to advance after the tree is destroyed. Sure, they will likely advance, but a war will surely only bring in an actual human military as opposed to the ones in this movie that are implied to be mercenaries and not a Government agency...worse yet, Jake's brilliant battle plan had lots of the Na'Vi killed by the numerically inferior human forces...until perhaps the ultimate plot device comes by having nature rally and attack the humans....I've seen Disney pull off more believable outcomes. Hard for me to like a character when he seemed to do nothing right and victory depended on a cheap plot device.
...then Stephen Lang...I know not many people know him, but I do and think he's an amazing actor...and...he gets cast as the world's biggest military cliche ever put on film. I mean every time that colonel character talked I knew I was in for something stupid and nonsensical such as: "We're gonna fight terror with terror!" ...when there was no terror going on at all (and I checked sources and even the extended cuts have nothing to justify this random George W. Bush referencing quote that comes out of nowhere). Or "We're gonna give 'em a shock and awe campaign!" ...then his robot's like 8 ft combat knife....we all know the only reason his suit and his suit alone had this was because his dumb character said "These robots are too pussy! Get me a goddamn knife bigger than I am! Hoorah!"
The action scenes were good, I won't say James Cameron doesn't do those good because if anything that's what his strength has always been. I just felt uninterested in stuff leading up to his big battles...Now if Sigourney Weaver's character had been the central hero I honestly would have paid more attention because she honestly turned a very flatly written role into a lovable character.
Yes. Fun movie, but I think it could have been just as good if they'd cut it to two hours...or if it were to be as long as it is, give some better character motivation to the villains and everyone else.
The body belonged to his dead brother and I don't think he ever even acknowledged that his brother belonged there and not him- okay he might have but he seemed entirely uncaring. When does he start caring about the aliens? After he gets some sex. Worst of all he starts a freaking FULL SCALE WAR which in all logical examples would have no good outcome for the local population. I'm sure the native tribes they were based on will tell you war is not a good idea for how to handle a superior force...especially if the next battle will likely be orbital nuking if the thing had common sense.
Seriously, James Cameron wanted to make some statement about the Native Americans...And he has his main character do something as stupid as declaring war on the human force when it is clearly established they have no immediate plans to advance after the tree is destroyed. Sure, they will likely advance, but a war will surely only bring in an actual human military as opposed to the ones in this movie that are implied to be mercenaries and not a Government agency...worse yet, Jake's brilliant battle plan had lots of the Na'Vi killed by the numerically inferior human forces...until perhaps the ultimate plot device comes by having nature rally and attack the humans....I've seen Disney pull off more believable outcomes. Hard for me to like a character when he seemed to do nothing right and victory depended on a cheap plot device.
...then Stephen Lang...I know not many people know him, but I do and think he's an amazing actor...and...he gets cast as the world's biggest military cliche ever put on film. I mean every time that colonel character talked I knew I was in for something stupid and nonsensical such as: "We're gonna fight terror with terror!" ...when there was no terror going on at all (and I checked sources and even the extended cuts have nothing to justify this random George W. Bush referencing quote that comes out of nowhere). Or "We're gonna give 'em a shock and awe campaign!" ...then his robot's like 8 ft combat knife....we all know the only reason his suit and his suit alone had this was because his dumb character said "These robots are too pussy! Get me a goddamn knife bigger than I am! Hoorah!"
The action scenes were good, I won't say James Cameron doesn't do those good because if anything that's what his strength has always been. I just felt uninterested in stuff leading up to his big battles...Now if Sigourney Weaver's character had been the central hero I honestly would have paid more attention because she honestly turned a very flatly written role into a lovable character.
Yes. Fun movie, but I think it could have been just as good if they'd cut it to two hours...or if it were to be as long as it is, give some better character motivation to the villains and everyone else.
don't forget that Jake Sully used all those months with the tribe to get into Nay'Tiri's pants, instead of... you know... try to explain that the humans have to mine this mineral because they really need it and maybe even try to negotiate about that big deposit below the tree, not to mention some sort of mutual aggreement and all of that...
it was never really established what the mineral was used for. what if it is crucial for medicine, science or space travel and so on?
it was never really established what the mineral was used for. what if it is crucial for medicine, science or space travel and so on?
Didn't see Avatar because without even going to see it I managed to sense the fail coming down the tubes and avoided it. However yeah I am sick of this 3D stuff but recently I did realize that hate or not, its somewhat the opening on the way to them doing honest Virtual Reality, since admittedly the 3D now is a hell of a lot better than the old days (ended up seeing GreenHornet in 3D much to my disgrace)
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