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Exodus
12 years ago
I am not normally the sort of person to take an extreme position on something. Usually I am happy to work through a problem, mediate, or wait for a situation to improve. But sometimes there is a problem which just isn't going to be solved, and you take all of the right courses of action, only to find yourself faced with a moral dilemma - and the only solution is to make a statement.
Currently, I have a moral dilemma with regards to Fur Affinity.
Over the past few months, my long-term client and friend,
Tarangryph has been the victim of some pretty serious stalking behavior by 
Fredriksam - both on and off Fur Affinity. He has found and posted photographs of her online, posted her personal information in public, and written a sex story wherein the main character breaks into Taran's house, steals her fursuit, and does awful sexual things. In this story, he uses her real name and location.
Fredriksam has made several comments about looking up Taran's address, about how easy it would be to find where she lives. He even contacted me to try and confirm her address, knowing that I would probably have records of my customer's contact information.
A week ago, Taran finally decided that it had gone far enough - she composed a journal on FA warning people about this guy's behavior, and filed a harassment ticket against him.
Fredriksam commented multiple times on the journal, making endless excuses for himself and claiming that she should thank him for what he did - he gave her lots of attention, after all.
You would think that this individual would be banned, or at least reprimanded (especially since his gallery was full of stolen art).
But No. Not only was he NOT banned, but the mods saw fit to punish Taran. They deleted her journal entry and the comments therein, with all of the evidence of the conflict. Taran feels so threatened and betrayed, she has left FA, and probably will not be comfortable associating with furries again.
When
Svedge brought this troubling development to the attention of Dragoneer, this is what he had to say:
"Dragoneer
Posted: 6 hours ago
The admin took the right course of action in this case. I don't feel it's something to leave FA over, as if it happened on FA, it will happen on /any/ site. It's unfortunate, but a choice they have made. I'll respect that."
So Dragoneer very respectfully does not give a flying ass-wipe about what is obviously criminal behavior and exploitation happening right here on his site. Why? Because it could happen anywhere! brilliant logic, Dragoneer.
No, I think that this is a great reason to leave. In my eyes, and certainly in Taran's eyes, this website's administrators are willing to turn a blind eye to abuse. They are willing to condone harassment and exploitation, and in doing so, they encourage this behavior.
And that, my friends, is why I am leaving Fur Affinity. As a woman, as a person with respect for my friends and customers, I do not want to be associated with a website that protects and supports predatory behavior.
It pains me to leave the parts of this site that I really love - that being the overwhelming majority of you who are good people, and who are kind and amazingly supportive of our work.
Luckily, at the same time that this situation pushed me to this point, Weasyl (https://www.weasyl.com) just launched open Beta - so it is now open for anyone to join. Even though the site is just getting started, I can tell already that it's brilliantly designed, and I can see a really great community being established there. Maybe the best part is that it's not being run by people who have their heads lodged firmly up their rears.
I have registered two accounts:
https://www.weasyl.com/profile/clockworkcreature for our costumes and other work done under the Clockwork Creature header, and
https://www.weasyl.com/profile/qarrezel for my personal artwork.
Please come join us there.
(p.s. I am screencapping this journal and any comments that are left on it, just in case FA decides to target me as well)
Currently, I have a moral dilemma with regards to Fur Affinity.
Over the past few months, my long-term client and friend,
Tarangryph has been the victim of some pretty serious stalking behavior by 
Fredriksam - both on and off Fur Affinity. He has found and posted photographs of her online, posted her personal information in public, and written a sex story wherein the main character breaks into Taran's house, steals her fursuit, and does awful sexual things. In this story, he uses her real name and location.Fredriksam has made several comments about looking up Taran's address, about how easy it would be to find where she lives. He even contacted me to try and confirm her address, knowing that I would probably have records of my customer's contact information.
A week ago, Taran finally decided that it had gone far enough - she composed a journal on FA warning people about this guy's behavior, and filed a harassment ticket against him.
Fredriksam commented multiple times on the journal, making endless excuses for himself and claiming that she should thank him for what he did - he gave her lots of attention, after all.
You would think that this individual would be banned, or at least reprimanded (especially since his gallery was full of stolen art).
But No. Not only was he NOT banned, but the mods saw fit to punish Taran. They deleted her journal entry and the comments therein, with all of the evidence of the conflict. Taran feels so threatened and betrayed, she has left FA, and probably will not be comfortable associating with furries again.
When
Svedge brought this troubling development to the attention of Dragoneer, this is what he had to say:"Dragoneer
Posted: 6 hours ago
The admin took the right course of action in this case. I don't feel it's something to leave FA over, as if it happened on FA, it will happen on /any/ site. It's unfortunate, but a choice they have made. I'll respect that."
So Dragoneer very respectfully does not give a flying ass-wipe about what is obviously criminal behavior and exploitation happening right here on his site. Why? Because it could happen anywhere! brilliant logic, Dragoneer.
No, I think that this is a great reason to leave. In my eyes, and certainly in Taran's eyes, this website's administrators are willing to turn a blind eye to abuse. They are willing to condone harassment and exploitation, and in doing so, they encourage this behavior.
And that, my friends, is why I am leaving Fur Affinity. As a woman, as a person with respect for my friends and customers, I do not want to be associated with a website that protects and supports predatory behavior.
It pains me to leave the parts of this site that I really love - that being the overwhelming majority of you who are good people, and who are kind and amazingly supportive of our work.
Luckily, at the same time that this situation pushed me to this point, Weasyl (https://www.weasyl.com) just launched open Beta - so it is now open for anyone to join. Even though the site is just getting started, I can tell already that it's brilliantly designed, and I can see a really great community being established there. Maybe the best part is that it's not being run by people who have their heads lodged firmly up their rears.
I have registered two accounts:
https://www.weasyl.com/profile/clockworkcreature for our costumes and other work done under the Clockwork Creature header, and
https://www.weasyl.com/profile/qarrezel for my personal artwork.
Please come join us there.
(p.s. I am screencapping this journal and any comments that are left on it, just in case FA decides to target me as well)
im gutted that you feel the need to leave FA because of one idiot o_O
(and the mismanagement by FA staff)
this was once not a bad site.
The law frowns on people talking matters into their own hands. The appropriate action is to contact the authorities if you genuinely feel threatened and to block the people harassing you. Asking the admins to "pick sides" is a problematic gesture, as is asking them to settle a dispute that's between you and another person, because what you're really asking them to do is beyond the powers that they're supposed to have. They have no way to know whose side of the story is true, do they? And they are not the police. They are not supposed to get involved in personal conflicts, only to enforce the rules of this particular website. One of those rules is no "call-out journals" allowed under any circumstances. So the appropriate response from them is to delete journals on both sides, if those journals "call out" journals targeting another user.
I know this site has had a lot of problems with staff members being unprofessional but seriously people this is not one of them.
That is where the administration failed. They punished someone for a relatively minor breach of the Terms of Service and did absolutely nothing to the one who committed a more serious breach.
And the idea that a journal was going to fix things... Like what? What seems to have happened was that the admins weren't moving fast enough, so taran tried the court of public opinion. If there was evidence in a journal, it would have had to come from somewhere else and therefore should be easily replaceable, if the evidence was in a comment on the journal, it was fruit of the poisonous tree, it should never have been there in the first place.
Screenshots can't be used as evidence because they can be photo shopped, things from outside FA cannot be used because they are outside the admin's purview.
Call the cops, don't bitch to Dragoneer.
also the journal by all accounts was to warn people of this activity, just as you might warn about a dangerous animal, however wrong the journal may be, its not the source of the problem.
What I'm saying is that there was an ALLEGED breach of the TOS/AUP and that the admins were looking into it, Dragoneer has said, several times that there are probably 20 times as many trouble tickets as there are admins filed daily, and it would take some time to sort out. Meanwhile posting a journal that specifically violates the TOS/AUP does not fix anything. That's trying to compare degrees of filth, 'he broke the rules, so why shouldn't I be able to break the rules a little bit less?' Well in this case, at this point, action has been taken and the offending account has been IP banned, and the offending journal has been deleted.
What I can't get over is how people are expecting FA to be some kind of police force. how does having your stalker's account banned make you any more or less safe? How does moving to Weasyl, where the whole thing gets to happen over again, fix anything? If I felt unsafe because I was being stalked online, I'd go to the police, not the admins.
No, this was an ill conceived, knee jerk reaction to a bad situation. I wish Taran the best, in the future, but it is my opinion that moving websites will neither dissuade here predator.
*It is my opinion that moving websites will not dissuade her predator.
If you've ever admin'd or owned your own site, you'll know that when something that could potentially have legal ramifications, you are to alert the authorities yourself, that goes for threats to harm a person, harm oneself, or plot to do any illegal activity.
the steps are clear. you freeze the account. you log anything and everything associated with the user(s) and you alert the authorities.
not delete evidence and pretend it never happened.
Second: Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's deleted. Anything taken off by the admins is saved for admin's eyes only.
Third: The account ended up getting banned for setting up a sock puppet account. The admin was just hunting for an excuse. Just because you are told there is evidence does not mean there actually is, or that the evidence is admissible. FA can only take action on things that happen on FA, and if there was actionable evidence sooner, they would have acted sooner, which brings me to...
Fourth: As before, the police are MUCH better to handle these situations than FA admins.
I myself own a website which used to be for the purpose of furry chat and roleplay (not yiff 'rp', actual rp). I kept every post made on that site when I converted the site into an online portfolio for my work (the site was 'dead', there was no activity what so ever and only 2 members were EVER active in the first place), simply making the rest of the site hidden for everyone but myself, so that all the time and work that went into it wouldn't be deleted. If there were anything criminal going on that needed to be saved for future examination, I would all the same keep it hidden for myself to view later.
That hasn't stopped the administration from banning people for offsite offenses before. It has been quite common. Remember Chewfox and how she was banned for "shaming the furry community through her appearance on Tyra Banks?" Oh sure, the ban was lifted, but that's beside the point. The fact of the matter is that she was still banned for something offsite.
So now, FA has a new admin code-of-conduct and it seems like they're trying to turn things around and be more consistent, transparent, and "by-the-book." Yet people complain when they stick to their established policies, instead of making a "special exception" for this person.
So which is it, guys? You can't have your cake and eat it too!!! Do you want FA to be ruled by order, procedure and established policies? Or do you want them to make things up as they go along? They tried the latter way, and people complained. Yet people still complain when they do things according to established rules instead of allowing exceptions. Which is it? You can't have it both ways!
This was not a uniform following of Terms of Service, nor was it even a humane thing to do. There is following rules to a letter, and then there is being decent and humane. Instead of working with Taran to try and assuage her and help her feel protected, her journal with all her evidence was wiped from view, essentially sending the message that her evidence was dismissed. It made her feel defenseless when she was vulnerable.
Rules should go under reform just as laws do. It's evident that the rules against "call out journals" aren't effective at all if it leads to genuine concerns over criminal behavior being dismissed in such a fashion.
I was not aware of any "exception" for being a "warning" journal. How are the mods supposed to obtain "factual evidence" anyway? How are they supposed to know who is telling the truth? And why should they be getting involved in the first place? That's why these kind of journals are not allowed, because of the possibility that the journal is not true and that it's merely an attempt to drag someone's name through the mud. And, the mods lack the proper faculties to make the determination, and decide who is telling the truth. They simply have no way of knowing for certain, in most cases. That's why this is banned.
Instead of working with Taran to try and assuage her and help her feel protected, her journal with all her evidence was wiped from view, essentially sending the message that her evidence was dismissed. It made her feel defenseless when she was vulnerable.
The fact that it was deleted from public view doesn't necessarily mean they deleted the evidence. The evidence, in any case, is not really for public consumption. We don't all necessarily have the right to see it.
Rules should go under reform just as laws do. It's evident that the rules against "call out journals" aren't effective at all if it leads to genuine concerns over criminal behavior being dismissed in such a fashion.
That's all fine, but meanwhile when we're debating whether or not call-out journals are going to be allowed, they are still going to be removed from the site, as per the rules. Hindsight is 20/20 and all that. They're not going to drop everything because a situation like this arises and say "hey, lets stop what we're doing and rewrite the rules on call-out journals just because this one person has some serious accusations..."
And why should we not all see the evidence? If they want to be transparent, why should we not see the evidence to also put in our input? It wouldn't be much different from a jury system in that regard in which peers have a say. Ultimately we shouldn't have too much influence, I agree, it should still be up to the admins. But some form of humanity should be involved in making decisions as well. As the current system is, the admins pretty much act like machines. They interpret rules literally when that is not always the best way to go about things.
What she should have done at least is entirely blocked him and prevented him from seeing her page, as well as privately told those who would listen to do the same, and then just ignored the petty attempts of that child (because clearly he is a child) to stalk her until he eventually gave up or got caught by the admins doing something that clearly breaks the tos (if you cut off a criminal's capability to do what he wants, he'll take more drastic measures. forcing him to take action is forcing him to come out into the open and get caught). But of course her emotional state was such that she couldn't think clearly and only thing she thought to do was shout out in a journal, which doesn't truly help if ONLY her watchers (and likely a low percentage of them) would see the journal. It's not her fault for handling it wrongly, but it's also not the admin's faults either.
I think she was honestly not the only person being attacked by the stalker here. The admins, as a secondary target, were being attacked also. I think more people should focus on just the one person who was truly doing wrong with the intent of doing wrong, and be a bit more sympathetic to those parties who were attacked.
Calling them inhuman, is also a ridiculous stretch... Inefficient moderators, maybe, but inhuman? Come on.
And look at his gallery, full of her photos
what they could have done, and what I would have done, was send both parties involved an email telling them that a criminal investigation has been established and all parties involved have had their accounts temporarily frozen, as well as letting them know that their ip is being tracked so if they try to make other accounts those accounts will be treated as accomplices and frozen as well. Then, with no possibility of either parties adding to or changing the evidence, the investigation could go on without complication.
Course that doesn't really stop the stalker from stalking elsewhere, so either way she shouldn't have felt that doing anything would have made her any more 'safe'. If she personally wanted to feel more safe and NOT break the rules, she should have done something along the lines of posting (here and there over various websites the stalker knows she visits) pieces of information that would counter what the stalker thinks he knows about her. Basically taint the truth a bit. Make it seem like she lives somewhere else, etc. At the very least throwing the stalker off (while he'd still be stalking her online presence) would prevent him from finding her in rl.
Unless you've seen the journal, which was conveniently deleted, along with all evidence and comments that might serve as evidence, you cannot say that it didn't happen. I'm willing to bet it did. I can't see a business owner putting her reputation on the line due to some false accusations, that, if found out to be such, would alienate a lot of her customers and send them elsewhere.
Maybe if there isn't a moderator, they might consider hiring one just to deal with harassment tickets. Have them all sent to one account, or filtered via the TT system into one inbox, and that one moderator deals with them. Or if the volume is too high, hire more than one. Don't make it within the power of those charged with that duty to erase correspondence so that abuse can be tracked on either side. That seems a better solution to me than this mess...it wouldn't be the first time it's happened.
And that at least to me sounds like a very good idea. Especially with potentially dangerous behavior. Even if they have to be sly and find a loophole to get the person/persons banned
Also, on the topic of art theft, if there are claims on the art or in the journals of the ones it was stolen from, or a report was sent in, action should be taken. If there are "... other things on the to-do list." then clearly the Moderator needs more help doing his job and should enlist more, stable minded, people. There's a point where disregard for others, be it art theft or something far more severe, that action should be taken. This person was accused of stalking, so why wasn't he further looked into? There's no excuse for incompetence. No justifying indecency of this magnitude. I'm not going to leave FA, if only because it's a site I hold dear, but there is a fine line between inhumane and cruel and the Mod is dancing on that line rather precariously.
What we have here is a situation where somebody accuses somebody of something, and as always, there are two sides to every story. I will admit that this Fredrik guy sounds creepy as hell and he posted some awkward comments on FA, but most of the worst things he was accused of doing, happened off FA. So what are the mods supposed to do? It would be unfair of them to automatically take the side of Taran just because she is a woman or because she is a well-known person. It would be unfair of them to ban somebody just because he has a bad reputation from something that happened elsewhere. People have complained before that the mods are unprofessional here. It would not be professional of them to change the established rules just for this one person. That is favoritism and is something people have complained about in the past. So, they really are doing the right thing, in my opinion, they are doing what the community has asked for, by remaining neutral to this and only going as far as to uphold the site rules.
I hope things work out for Taran and that she can obtain a restraining order or whatever but people here need to understand that the job of the mods is only to enforce the rules of the site. Their job is not to mediate interpersonal disputes that stem from elsewhere. Their job is not to protect someone who is being harassed irl or harassed on other sites. Their job is not to enforce the standards of proper social behavior among furries at large. Their job isn't even to enforce the standards of proper social behavior and not being creepy on this site so far as the comments do not actually violate the rules. That is what the block and "hide comment" functions are for.
I do think we need a slight change in rules to account for this sort of behavior. I've had a stalker. They're creepy. It's really unsettling, especially when someone's obsessed enough to find pictures of you, or in my case pay people to take pictures of you...
Surely, we can have some sort of rule where if there's harassment offsite, both individuals involved are here on-site, and there's considerable concern for it heading here, then a warning can be issued? Why are the only steps nothing and banned; where's the middle ground?
Smh. What the hell is wrong with some people?
I don't think that's the case here. If you throw a murder weapon into a river, you probably would know that doing so would hinder a police investigation. But deleting a journal that is already prohibited by the ground rules of the website wouldn't be that.
I asked for if anyone had information on their identity, because they needed to be reported to the authorities.
This earned me an official warning and personal chastisement from Dragoneer for attempting to dox a site member. He deleted all the relevant comments. I didn't think to screen cap any of it beforehand, because I really didn't expect them to do something so unconscionable as to assist a rapist in covering their tracks.
So it wouldn't be the first time they've destroyed evidence and it wouldn't be the first time they didn't care.
As if that wasn't bad enough, the warning came with instructions to specifically go to an admin first about these things because, in their eyes, they should be the first and only point of contact.
I was literally being instructed to report to FurAffinity admins in lieu of talking to the police.
I can TELL you that I'm raping dogs or even that I killed my neighbor and buried them in my back yard, but it doesn't make it true, and the law recognizes that.
contacting the admins FIRST is better than contacting the police in your local area because the admins can do that FOR you and they count as a COMPANY so them contacting the police is credible while him contacting local police about some random person he met online claiming to rape his dogs somewhere on earth would just get laughed at.
I agree that here, this is a he-said she-said situation. With offline harassment, women are always given the benefit of the doubt--a bit of sexism in Ameriva that's usually O.K., but sometimes puts innocent men (and boys) in jail. We're so used to this mindset that seeing a harassment issue treated more neutrally online seems unfair. That, coupled with Quarrezel's post ("they're e-famous and e-famous people never lie or exaggerate!") has people leaving and saying things like "this is inhumane."
I honestly believe that all of this happened--I really do. But in this case, I also believe much of it happened off of FA--I think the admin comment about it happening anywhere was more in regards to that. For that reason, maybe there WASN'T enough on-site evidence for them to really take action after the initial investigation.
However, I'm sure everyone has practically said... "Oh well, what has been done is done and there's not going to be anything done about protecting those who were damaged by this."
what would be obstructing evidence would be for the stalker to edit his own work (assuming edits don't create a new copy of the previously submitted comments/submissions) to change the evidence.
eugh
I have no words for how apauled I am at hearing all of this - the judicial system is useless.
this kind of behavior will come up on any website though. FA isnt really an exception to the rule. The only difference is that the admins seem to be a bit backward and dont seem to know what they are doing - although once again that could be the case for any website. i tried to have a guy banned on FB for sexually assaulting me while back and they did nothing. instead, he went and told all his friends that i was a nasty little whore (which is untrue - i don't sex)
so yea. it could happen anywhere. on any site.
as for the laws. just aviod all people. problem solved o_O
So.. yes. Stalking is definitely illegal, and in addition, there are things the police can do in regards to cyber-stalking as well. I know this because a few months ago, the cops in my town were monitoring my friend's cousin on facebook, and made an arrest as soon as said cousin let slip where he was located.
Enjoy.
Though this whole situation has me feeling a little sick..
I don't feel so clueless now, but things like this? Should never happen. It's unacceptable. They'll be lucky if people haven't reported this website for it's shady dealings.
*sigh* Maybe if this site got its poop in a group, people wouldn't need to leave...
I've had several people post harassing comments on my pieces. I reported a few, but they said there was nothing they could do. So I have just in general given up on that route and started deleting them on sight and just ignoring it because that is all there is to do. Honestly, I hope Weasyl is better about this and I hope more people migrate over. I'm only keeping this account open as a gallery to update semi-regularly and as a way for my regular customers to contact me if they don't transfer.
I absolutely despise that law and I studied Criminal Justice so I still think it's absurd to have a law like that.
The best police would do is respond to the threat by taking victims report and suggesting she get a restraining order. Until an actual incident happens they won't touch the suspect.
...a good cop. Only ever seen one of you guys before.
Are you unicorns?
Personally I do it because I never grew up enough not to get a giddy sensation when I test the lights and sirens at the beginning of a shift. Actually the second half of that is true.
Seriously though most cops are good people, if you think we're rude in the performance of our jobs please take a moment to consider the "high caliber" of our usual clientele and if possible understand that we're almost always having a bad day by any normal standard. Personally I consider any day I don't have to tackle someone who's either drunk, high, both, and/or trying to hurt me or a coworker or another citizen/alien to be very uneventful, and entirely too rare. All that and I'm not even a best cop, I'm a fed, those guys have it far worse for far less money.
other good cop I knew was my grandfather, who was with the NYPD
but around here the cops are shit
the old lady that lives next door to me had some dude try to break into her house - guy dropped his wallet and cell phone on his way out her back yard. Open and shut right?
The cops are huge dicks to her, don't even take her full statement, and take the wallet/phone and go. 3 weeks later, not a word - her son calls the precinct back up and they initially have no damn clue what he's talking about. Apparently wondercops A and B never even filed a report.
Also, the parking lot outside my job is constantly getting plagued after sundown by 15-18 year old kids who just drink and be loud all night because the liquor store next to us doesn't give a shit about selling to minors. Dude's been reported and arrested 5 times in the last year alone, but never gets shut down. One particular night some fuckin kid that couldn't have been over 14 accosted me and asked me to buy him beer, while his other friends were all running around the lot drinking 4loko and that kind of shit... in plain visibility of a goddamned cop car parked 20 feet away outside a Dunkin Doughnuts. Swear to fucking god.
But seriously, hats off to you. That's a pretty thankless job, I bet.
You need to understand that there are in fact needs of the citizenry here that we need to protect the lives of over that of citizens elsewhere.
I'm in corrections as well... and honestly wonder why, sometimes, considering the crimes of the offender.
But, alas, our job is not to mete out punishment, but maintain the safety *lol* and security of the offender, and the public *from* the offender.
Such a lovely setup we have. No wonder I'm a complete misanthrope.
As for this situation, it looks like it's off to Wesyl I go to set up an account, just to watch the artists that trickle away from here over the actions of one compete douche that should be Castle Lawed into an unmarked grave.
I only know that because I've been trying to find my father for the past couple of years and all information on him is locked.
If your friend reported this and she lives in the US or in a location that has the same views then it was just those who are meant to serve and protect turning a blind eye. ( which does happen quite a bit even if they should take everything reported seriously. )
In that case the law would advise the victim to take civil action before they do step out of the donut shop to go check the person out.
A restraining order would only be effective if both parties are from the US, and I'm not sure how much legal weight is carried concerning corespondance (I'm no cop, after all).
Though... I do know of one fellow in on capital assault for finding and beating the bearings off of another MMO player for causes not listed on his travel card. It does happen, but the cops aren't going to make a move until it does, or the intent is verified. I can threaten someone all day long in front of police, but if I don't act on them they can't do a thing (first amendment and all...)
In this case, I think it's the online aspect that makes it fuzzy.
Because until this guy physically assaults her in some way they can't do anything about it. he may be a creep and delusional but there's nothing the cops can do really. Sad as that is.
Are you going to demonize this? Are you not looking out for yourself and those close to you first and foremost right now?
You can't seriously do this without being a hypocrite. Of course FA is going to delete incriminating journals, no matter who is posting them. They need to investigate the matter themselves, they can't go on accusations or hunches. In time Weasyl will do the same, and Inkbunny, and SoFurry, so no matter where you go the site owners will always cover their own asses first- just like you would.
You make it sound like every other furry community website is shady and unprofessional as fuck.
WHELP
Also, yeah, they are.
Still, I'm kind of shocked at the artists he's' tried to get with...mind blowing to say the least.
There you go. Scroll down a bit until you get to Zaush's bit and be horrified :I
Um... I don't know what to do, either. But if this is true, this is absolutely a valid reason to leave FA.
:/
I'll have to think about moving, too. Obviously, I'm not as high-profile as you, but this is a moral dilemma, as you say.
Hearing stories about inept moderation staff before, it's definitely more eye-opening witnessing it happen first-hand. Hooray for better alternatives!
And incredibly saddened and not the least bit disgusted that Dragoneer would just snub you both like this and punish her no less!
Ridiculous.
I shall greatly miss your work on here madame. :(
Way to treat the victim like they're the ones doing something wrong.
Well.
See you on Weasyl, then.
Especially deleting the journal, isn't that something that could have been admissible evidence in court or when obtaining a temporary restraining order?
I'll be watching you on Weasyl :)
I foresee my FA account seeing a LOT less use in the days ahead, and my Weasyl account getting a greeeeat deal of attention, if you catch my drift. =/
Second, read.
Yeah, that is bad. And if you don't think so, then perhaps you should rethink your life.
Besides, "zoosexuals," even the ones who don't act on their desires, aren't looked upon kindly anywhere, including this community in general - any more than "child lovers" who don't act on their desires. They're marginalized for a reason.
And you should have known that this was far from the appropriate time and place to white knight the "zoosexual cause," given that the circumstance I was referring to was something you didn't know anything about.
Next time you decide to get defensive about something so repulsive, make sure you know what you're getting into - or better yet, don't do it at all.
You're really serious, aren't you.
Good day.
I think anything else I'd have to say on the matter would be suspension-worthy.
"They can't consent, they have the mental state of a child!"
"But they have sex hormones!"
"But those sex hormones are there to reproduce not to cross-breed!"
Not saying I defend mister deleted-his-comments though, he seems jerky. I don't like people who shove their stances in people's face ._.
Hey, at least we're all normal.
So before you come at my neck like that -- maybe it's just me but I didn't have sexual urges until a lil before I turned 16 (And i turned 16 in november), so maybe I'm just a late bloomer, I didn't think 13 year olds could have sex hormones >.>
I don't think bestiality is okay , but that's why I distance myself from that kind of lifestyle as much as possible!
Also, girls can partake in bestiality too, my friend's ex-girlfriend was really into getting humped by dogs. Not saying I agree with it, and I didn't personally know the girl so I can't even say her choice affected me in any way.
I'm sorry if I worded my comment wrong, it was past midnight and I Was falling asleep as I was typing, but I wasn't trying to approve of bestiality, so CAAAALM down please -___-.
All I was saying was that I don't see the point in wasting my time and energy by going in circles arguing with a zoophiliac such as the one who removed his comments because all you do is say the same things back and forth and no conclusion is ever reached one way or the other and it's tiring when I could be doing something more intelligent like reading a novel or studying for exams. That's not saying I APPROVE of what they do, that's saying I don't see a point in arguing with them.
So don't call me an effing idiot.
I was using quotes, not my own personal thoughts. So before you come at my neck check yourself, aight?
Also. >__> I don't know why that other person jumped on you. I could tell you were being hypothetical about a discussion with someone who does support bestiality. Not that you condoned it. 8|
also thank you for the talk on sexual hormones, I never really learned about sexual stuff .-.;;
My school kinda took the approach that said "This makes babies, when you're a teenager you hit puberty, don't have sex at this age it's bad".
They were very vague >~< So thank you ^_^
Well, it is entirely possible for an 8 year old to get pregnant too. 8| As frightening as that is. But there are some cases of teens between 13-17 getting pregnant. Not wide spread, but there are some. Especially depending on what kind of community said teens are living in.
And you're quite welcome! It's a pity your school wasn't more informative. And supportive. I don't actually see anything wrong with teens experimenting and having sex. As long as they are safe about it. (using condoms and such) I'm not saying all teens are ready for it, or that they should. But if it happens, I think it's better if people are understanding and supportive, and less 'NO TABOO, BAD, DON'T DO IT." Some people just /do/ have sex at that age. And some people are going to do it because others tell them not to. Or because it's frowned upon.
Admittedly, my school(s) weren't much better. They just sorta told us similar things to what yours did. Maybe a little more. But anything I learned was either by talking to my mother, or through... uh... I dunno if it still exists, but there used to be this site called something like gurl.com or girl.com. And it was for young females to go look, find out about their body, their menstrual cycles, masturbation, etc. It was really nice to have stuff like that.
And well, I'm a guy so I can't say I would use girl.com xDDD. But I mean, it's not like I didn't know what sex was or nothing, I know about sex, and masturbation, and fetishes, and all that stuff, but they never really told us when sexual maturity and stuff happens XD. And I never bothered to really look that up because to me, I look at it like this "I'll know when I'm ready to have sex, I don't need a book to tell me when :|"
And it's true, I don't get why people fly off the handle about that, if he looked slightly down the page, I made a reply to a comment another person had said about exacttly how ehhhhh I feel about bestiality ._. I dunno, but eh. As long as they don't cuss at me again I''m fine. I don't like gettin sworn at >~>
what.
how.
I'm filled with both curiosity and disgust, how is this physically possible?
I deleted my comments because I was just getting flamed for them. If you have something constructive to say, I offered you a chance to say it, but if you instead want to play these childish games and encourage people's harassment of me, well, I guess it can just serve as a further reminder to people of which side is more open-minded and mature here.
And I already told you I could have a discussion with you about it, but you declined. If you wanted to drop it, fine, but instead you chose to play the "naming and shaming" game by posting logs of my comments.
I'll make the offer again. If you want to have a civilized discussion instead of just telling me my views are "unacceptable" and providing faulty logic to support it, note me. Otherwise, drop it.
I have the right to post any comment within site rules that I choose. You, however, do not have the right to "name and shame" people simply because you disagree with their beliefs, and use FA as a medium to encourage harrasment of these people. Your last comment essentially amounts to blackmail.
Delete all comments and screencaps, and we can be done with this.
Why you think the "It's illegal, so clearly it's wrong" argument makes any sense at all is beyond me.
Sorry taht your dog-banging habits don't fall into my most important things to speak about, so don't tell me i have nothing real to think about :P. I have more than enough to think about, but i don't waste my time being frivolous on the internet.
Guess what, that's the past and the past is in the past for a reason. This is the present, you knob, not the past. I don't care what was right or wrong back then, but obviously you got some messed up thoughts dude.
Have a fun time trying to convince people you're right, I'm going to work, and GASP. I actually do have better things to do than be here! Surprise surprise.
Assuming that the non-speaking person is totally functional every other way, especially mentally -- wouldn't a written letter of consent be okay o=o? I mean, mutes have wants/needs/etc too, they just don't have the vocal ways of portraying that.
Now this is just in theory, I don't really know anything about people who are mute, I've never met a mute person, and never really looked into it , soooo excuse me if what I said sounded dumb ^^...
There's a difference between thinking of something and actually doing it, but, assuming i'm thinking right, I assume you'd be like "So pedophilia is o kay as a fetish?" to which I Say ooooh now, and IDK why I think that way, but I guess because I'm a kid and not a dog, I feel a closer connection to children, I understand the naivete of a child better than I understand the physical and psychological workings of a dog, I'm not really sure. But for some reason the only things that are enough to make me angry , fetish wise, are pedophilia and necrophilia, necrophilia because I have a HUGE amount of respect for the dead, and view necrophilia as a disrespect of the dead -- but someone once posed a question "what if it was in their will that they desired to be used in sexual intercourse after their death" which, to me, is a one in a million situation, but I guess then it'd be okay.
and pedophilia cause children are innocent and you shouldn't damage a child...
But I guess the reason bestiality non-practice wise doesn't phase me is because I mean, my friend's ex-girlfriend used to get shagged by her dog....and iit was a pretty happy dog ,just saying. Needless to say I think that's totally gross, but I didn't see any kind of negative repercussion, I guess?
I dunno, I just don't have strong feelings on it, and can't for the life of me make an argument stating my feelings one way or the other, cause, I've thought about it alot, no lie, but haven't reached a conclusion one way or the other. just that, to me, it's as gross as watching straight porn or hardcore bondage.
I get dry humped by my dog, but that IS gross and personally I don't want to have sex with my dog. I dunno, it's disgusting and I don't see how that could seriously make anyone happy? The animal won't give you anything back and animals are only acting upon reproductive instincts so... it's not love. They don't understand love, marriage, and consent or anything, they don't have the same thoughts as us and they can't comprehend such, that's why it's wrong.
And I know the feeling of being dry-humped by a dog, my friend's dog tried to do that to me when me and him were playing super smash brothers once. The scream I let out that day was fiercer and louder than the scream I let out when I broke my ankle, that's how terrified I was XD. Looking back on it, I think it was actually kinda hilarious, but when you're caught in the moment it is absolutely scary on all levels.
That...I have never seen a FEMALE dog do that, and this makes me wary of my own female dog e.e but she's never been around other dogs except my grandma's dog so I think we're fine o=o
Tl;dr; Animals can't consent, don't touch animals, don't touch children or anything in any sexual way if they can't give consent unless you want to end up in jail for abuse and sexual harassment.
not condoning it, just saying.
That really says something about where our country's mindset is. and i can only say wow to that o=o..
And I think I'm going to give up on trying to talk sense to these idiots, and go enjoy some drawing. Have a nice day/night KodaD.S!
}
If I worded it in any way that didn't sound right -- I apologize, It was like 2 in the morning when I was writing this and I Should have been sleeping but my friend kept bugging me to play with him and i was sooo tired so please forgive any bad wording and misunderstandings XD
except they both didn't ask for that attention.
.... wait.
Class act.
I mean, I've seen films with bestiality in them (Dead Or Alive), but that wasn't real bestiality and was only a quick scene meant to show a little insight into the "Business" of one of the characters so hat's not wrong...but raping cute animals for profit, and actually, you know, RAPING THEM, is really ew Q~Q
I mean, like I said, it's too much time making an argument for that, when, to me, beastiality is just really icky o-o. I mean, I mulled it over in my brain after that incident and no matter which way I look at it, it's just as icky and unappealing as heterosexual porn to me. But to each his own. my argument in that earlier thing was that -- I get what you might be into, but it's really gross taking pictures of your NEIGHBOR'S dog and saying stuff about how you want to bang it. I mean isn't that crossing a line of trust between you and your neighbor? I wouldn't take a picture of my neighbor's son and say I wanted to bang his brains out, that's rude :|.
IF you'd like to talk more about it, feel free to note me. :)
Also yea, that stalker dude, wow. o.o
Do you mind if I put a link to this in my journal? I think people ought to be aware that the admin of the site is this... Geez, I have no words.
See you on the other side, someday..
I can't blame you in any shape way or form from wanting to distance yourself from a site that would so directly exhibit such victim blaming and further victim punishing behavior such as this, especially directly from the very owner of the site. It goes so far beyond unprofessional, to the point of being very directly a part of the problem to begin with.
I'll be definitely fallowing you wherever you take you're work.
One of the highest-quality suitmakers in the fandom, probably the highest with any degree of notoriety giving him the finger... yea, this has the potential to become a colossal PR disaster. I think I'm gonna make a gallery on Weasyl now and cheer you on, cause TBH I'm... kinda getting sick of seeing this site stay as the 800-pound gorilla by notoriety alone.
Plus whats the point of staying in a place that doesnt give two shits about situations like this? Its pig disgusting.
Actually, the main problem here is Dragoneer. He seriously needs to fucking step down and give the job to a proffessional.
And BTW have YOU left anything for 'neer? Did you spam his page yet?
oh and uh... in regards to your user name; treznor as in trent reznor? 83
COME ON PEOPLE, those whom are outraged do the same!!!!!!! Take the three seconds it takes to type, pretend its an RP.
There two good ways to deal with it, the one you said and for everyone to see this to report the journal so even more people can see and report, especially if "popufurs" report/leave, like you said, alot of "furries" can't stay away from here, and if most of the popufur moved, then so would most of the others
No, but one wonderful person leaving and explaining at length why can cause other specific people to possibly leave as a show of solidarity.
One person editing their gallery images with the explanation for why they left (especially someone as watched as Q) and leaving can inform others of knowledge they may not have had, and get them to follow that one.
And if only two follow after each one, then eventually yes, one wonderful person leaving (if they are the right person) does cause people to leave en masse.
But no, it won't happen overnight or all at once. You're right there.
But at this point, I'm migrating fully as well over this weekend.
Sadly, I have no knowledge of the inner-workings among the admins, merely what everyone else hears. I can't help but wonder what differences their are. If Dragoneer is not able or willing to do his job correctly (and I'm not saying he didn't in this case...though I don't agree with the course of action), then maybe he should emulate England and remain the figurehead while he hires someone to handle the main responsibilities and disciplinary action. One might also draw a parallel between C-level executives; one person is not CEO, CFO, and CEO in a large organization.
In the end, I am doing this because I want to - for me, and for MY morals.
Since he knows where your friend is, try to see if she can get a security detail. Try to keep in as much contact with her as she is a target for the stalker. If she has not gone to the authorities, she really does need to go to them. Push her to do so if she hasn't as its dangerous for her to remain silent.
I know something about colossi with feet of clay - I have lived through the 1990s revolution in Central Europe and the fall of Iron Curtain and I believe in the will of the people.
There comes a time where words are meaningless and only action will suffice. If it takes doing serious harm to this site's userbase to finally make him see reason, then so be it. It's clearly what he deserves right now. Let's see how well FA does when people start leaving in droves for Weasyl.
Therefore, the only cause worth contributing to right now is FA's demise. And the way I see it, there's only TWO ways of doing that:
1) Hope that enough people leave that it discourages Neer enough to finally just shut the site down or sell it off to someone else (and then we can just hope that in someone else's hands, there's hope of saving FA, tho that's doubtful).
2) Get either media or legal attention brought to FA, in regards to both this incident and all previous incidents in which sexual harassment has been permitted, defended, and enabled. The bad press and/or the legal repercussions with either get the site shut down OR finally be the catalyst that provokes change.
Message spam is NOT going to bring change. I'm so sure, I'd literally cut off my own pinky finger with a pair of hedge trimmers if it turns out I was wrong. I'm THAT sure. Believe you me, I -wish- change were as easy as just flooding Neer's page/inbox until he relented, but the fact of the matter is that after YEARS of that ... nothing's ever changed. He's Public Enemy #1 in a LOT of places, and he has a -lot- of 'hate shrines' all over the internet ... and NONE of that has ever meant dick to him.
I don't see Dragoneer selling this site. It's a manifestation of his ego, his 'position' within the furry fandom. People will flock his way regardless of his perceived flaws and factual ineffectiveness. It's a fact. I assure you that there will never be enough people leaving en masse. As I said it's too engrained within the furry psyche that I cannot see it happening any time soon.
As for the media. What happens to any furry out there that goes public with the media? They become a martyr for two causes. One being that they will be treated like a leaper to all those who are in the fandom that slightly disagree with him/her. Secondly, they will be treated as a freakshow for those whom are out outsiders. Do you think for one instant that the media will come in and not concentrate on the mere fact that people like to dress up in animal suits and fuck. The porn alone is shocking enough for me and I am a furry faggot. It's what sells, or gets the most viewers. Shit like this happens all over the internet, in places like face book, myspace, google+ . Just to name a few.
I can understand you wanting to put a light on this for the whole world to see, but eventually it will grow out of your paws and you will end up hurting the fandom you have come to love rather then help it. If we as a community don't take shit into our own hands, then we will suffer as a result.
I think I speak for a LOT of people here when I say that I could give ANY less of a shit if saying "fuck you, FA" and leaving makes me look like some sort of coward. I really don't care. If I verbalized what I'd REALLY like to see happen to Neer and this site, I could end up with Feds knocking on my door. So for the sake of my own blood pressure, I know that -I- do have to leave, or else I'm not going to be able to control my temper and I'm going to end up saying/doing some EXTREMELY regrettable shit. A lot of others feel the same way. The amount of hell they wish on Neer is beyond imagination.
Simply put, the "yelling at Neer repeatedly" song and dance has played out TOO many times before my eyes, and I'm DONE. If you want to go wail and thrash and tell Neer what a meany doo-doo head he is until you're blue in the face, go RIGHT ahead. But I've seen this happen enough times to know how it's going to turn out.
Your logic is sound and your point well written. From what I can tell you seem like an excellent individual. Would hope to share a beer with you one day down the road. Until then take care buddy. I would watch ya on FA but you seem like you're going to be out of the door any time soon now. Maybe I'll catch ya on the other side of the fence :)
And then there are times that there is no hope to fix anything, So you carpet bomb the whole damn thing until there is not a damn thing left.
It may not be "one artist" taking her followers with her, Its the fact that time and time again I see these big named artists, the popufurs if you will, that leave and take there followers, over and over again, More and more people are leaving FA for good, soon only the clueless, the nameless and the trollish will be left and the rest of us can play on a new site away from them, Neer may not take down the site, but it wont be note worthy and I'm putting my money on weasyl taking over.
Angry words wont fix this, Neer doesn't care, you could flood him with it all damn day for years and years and guess what? you'll still be on his site which is all he cares about.
What can Dragoneer do? I mean seriously. What authority does he have in the real world, outside of here? The most he or anyone can do probably has been done: screenshots, police report, remove things that have private information and harrassment. I don't know much about his tone or the admins, but when it comes down to it, going up to a police station with screenshots of an "online feud", at least with someone in another country supposedly, they're probably going to look at anyone and shrug. If they were local, it might make a difference, I think. Maybe even within the nation, MAYBE.
Granted I'm not entirely sure how things work or what legal things can be going on. And no I'm not saying it's right. Perhaps I just don't know enough about how the police or authorities work, but I honestly don't know that Dragoneer would help to sway anyone to take any action any more than what she has herself. Being that this site is fairly huge and difficult for one and some people to manage, they might have to sift through lots of harassment daily. Dealing with the constant drama and stress is nerve deadening. Customer service of any sort will do that, even in retail. (If you ever wanna meet someone who hates people, talk to someone in customer service, that whole bit.)
No, I'm -not- defending. I'm not saying it's all okay or there's NOTHING he or anyone can do. I'm trying to understand every aspect. I don't know anyone personally involved in all of... this horrific mess. But something should be done. I don't think that killing the site is going to change anything but limit things that people are going to do where they can regardless.
The only thing I can think of what people can do is ban IPs (which has been done in this case), destroy the offending accounts, have a list of things that should be done in cases like this explaining what they can and can't do, and go from there. No one can fix the emotional trauma, but they can at least get rid of the perpetrators. They could be a bit more... professional and a bit more caring about the whole bit.
Ugh, maybe I shouldn't be typing at almost 5am. So sorry.
Sure, they can't stop said stalker from acting in a criminal way, but you know what? They could have at least given him ONE less site through which he could harass her, and Taran would have had at least the small comfort that the FA admins gave enough of a shit to at least want to do the right thing on THEIR site. But that didn't happen. She was, essentially, thrown under the bus. =/
I don't know why it wasn't done sooner but it's done now.
And I already said I knew this comment was old. That's what tends to happen when you're like me and don't give enough of a shit to check FA more than once a month and only then it's to check messages.
That said, I have been following the problem and I am really disgusted by the admins/mods of FA. These power-trippers give all of us menfolk a bad name. I was brought up in a society which you might call sexist, but because of this I still believe that men should be protectors and providers, not predators, and what I have seen here is beyond contemptible.
I don't think I will stick to FA for long after this as well, see you on Weasyl and other nicer places.
Have you browsed FA lately? Even the users with no talent seem to somehow generate income.
Do you think anybody wants to buy a $20 doodle of a stick figure on notebook paper? Nope. They're bringing their $20 to artists that have talent.
I'm no popufur, yet I get business.
But blaming asshole artists won't make you feel better.
Work, work, work and practice. :)
It's frustrating when you see people you think aren't as good as you who get more sales. But the truth is a LOT of artists here who aren't "popufurs" get commissions. I get it's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. But I'm just telling you that your observation is untrue.
I hope to see you there
See you on Weasyl (I've been there a while already).
That said. Choosing to enforce those rules and NOT to properly deal with both the journal's contents and the harassment ticket is disgusting.
Being an admin does not give one the right to choose which rules to enforce. Picking and choosing which rules to enforce only diminishes your own authority. Sure, you can ban people and delete information, but everyone will know through word of mouth of your actions and you will be alienating more and more users from your site.
Leaving the site was a smart move. Why stay if the admin are blatantly ignoring their own rules and doing as they wish with the site regardless of rules they set in the first place. If you cannot trust the ones in charge to follow their own rules, then you either get rid of them or leave their jurisdiction. There is no viable option on this site for users to choose who is admin, so your best option is to leave the site in its entirety and go else where.
I'l follow you there too.
Perhaps I should slowly make it my main gallery.
This situation and the others like it I've heard about are just sick. Later, FA.
Maybe it's time I spread my wings too.
One thing's for sure--Neer is a BAD, -BAD- egg. You did the smart thing in taking your business elsewhere, and I sincerely hope others begin following in your example. Neer and FA don't -deserve- the userbase that they have, with the way that they treat them (and allow OTHERS to treat them, without any sort of intervention).
I hope your friend will be fine!
People kiss up to anyone with power is what I meant to say.
ohwell, i'll follow you on weasel.
this whole situation sucks, but eh.. she'll only get worse from here.
*hugs for both of you*
Everyone's pissed and is leaving - and I agree with every single one of them.
I have a gallery on Weazyl too, I might as well just MOVE ON OVER THERE AS WELL. :/
Irritated and disappointed. If you decide to start making a BUSINESS, start acting more professional. That goes towards the FA admins.
I'm going to seriously consider leaving, or at least being a LOT less active here, unless the mods pick their shit up.
The mods deleted her journal and did nothing to the people who attacked her over it.
Great job, admins.
I've been thinking about leaving FA too because I have someone stalking me through my boyfriend via notes for a few months. I also don't support blaming the victim in cases like this.
By the time they answered, it was stupid to even bother since this person never tried to get in touch with me again (she did tried by sock-puppet accounts...which obviously the staff never took to notice AT ALL as well!). So I told them to don't even bother anymore.
I mean...three months. What the flying bison?
By the time you answer it, any subject would had died out.
I wrote my own journal and linked back to this one, I hope that is okay.
I can understand not wanting drama, but I'd rather take the bit of drama than be made to seem like a supporter of such deplorable actions.
And people always forget, YES FA is a privately owned site, but without it's users...what would it be?
I hope we can provide a more productive and safer environment than you've had in the past. And while I hope Taran does come back, I understand her hesitance.
I hope Taran comes back, and I definitely feel that we can and should try to take more action on our part in the future, but there's only so much we can do about off site issues.
Couldn't just, I dunno, take down that submission if they didn't edit out the real-world information? That's what most people are up in a huff about with this I feel like.
"A week ago, Taran finally decided that it had gone far enough - she composed a journal on FA warning people about this guy's behavior, and filed a harassment ticket against him.
Fredriksam commented multiple times on the journal, making endless excuses for himself and claiming that she should thank him for what he did - he gave her lots of attention, after all.
You would think that this individual would be banned, or at least reprimanded (especially since his gallery was full of stolen art)."
Admitted to it on the journal...and gallery of stolen art. So...evidence was there until it was deleted
First off usually what wakes people up is the whole "what if it happen to..." say for example as other have put in Sciggles was the target, How would it be handled then? With places like this it is far easier like facebook to have someone's personal info especially from handling commissions and the like and how many tend to be very social for a community than just post art, music, stories. The whole business of these websites is evolving to something more social and in that, there is some responsibility to protect users in a way from harassment. That's just common sense on a business perspective, because if something happened to that individual, its using this website as an accessory to any acts, and with there been some acknowledgement of intent to harm, there is some liability there when it has been drawn to attention. The fact of saying you have so many users that you cannot feasibly answer every note is possible, but its something now you'll have to address in some way as a protection to users. Even though this is more of an "as is" for a website to us, we are free to leave at anytime, and more will if they see more of from their perspective a blind eye.
If there's no confidence in the leaders, you won't have followers to lead over. There are more options now as people are saying and showing, and more could very well leave from more circumstances like this.
I used to think that maybe Dragoneer was just a guy like us, prone to the occasional mistake, trying to keep the fandom's only real official community site afloat; no easy task.
But looking at the blatant double-standards you put on display here, I feel I can no longer extend you that respect as a person.
Looking at the comments here, It would appear that many many of your users now feel the same way.
I still care about your website though. If you are interested at all in saving it, I can suggest you do one of two things:
My first suggestion would be to alter the TOS to differentiate Call Out journals from journals that Warn The Community of abuse from those that happen to be FA users. What this means is that yes, you and your people are going to have to do a little investigative work, rather than saying "Oh, it's all going on elsewhere, so it doesn't matter here." The point is that if you ignore it, it will happen here. When you are looking at patterns of behavior this consistent, it is of a certainty.
By saying people can do whatever the fuck they want to each other elsewhere as long as they don't bring stuff here, you are in fact enabling them to stalk people here and keep the hard evidence off the site, so that all you and your staff have to work with are he-said/she-said. If someone without a history of trolling posts a journal warning people of a guy, listing evidence of said greivances, do a little research. Your website is a fandom hub. If people can't feel safe here, they aren't going to stay in the fandom. Go the extra mile and put your best face forward.
My second suggestion would be to resign from your administrative post and let someone who actually gives a damn about the people here take over. I understand that you own this website, but the ownership thereof should not be informing administrative decisions, and I feel that is what happened here. "Should I protect the website or should I protect a user" should always come down on the side of the user in a case where a user feels threatened. Yes, your TOS has a policy against "Call out" journals. But use some common sense. There should be a difference between a user being butthurt and feeling genuinely threatened by someone.
Evidence has a funny way of disappearing when it's ... y'know ... DELETED. =/
Also, blocking does a whole lot of nothing when not only does said stalker block-evade ... but also continues to blithely go about posting the victim's RL info, photos of her suit not taken by him (and posted without the photographer's permission), and fantasy rape stories all over their account. Yeah, I -really- have a hard time figuring out how the block feature's gonna fix all -that-.
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/...../#cid:31828693
Here, I'll even do you the liberty of copy/pasting the result of what some minor sleuthing uncovered:
"First, is this other comment left by this user: http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/...../#cid:31828651 That seems like a pretty prying/personal question for someone to just ask out of the blue.
Second, the fact that one of their other (now hidden) comments got chastized by others for containing info that was deemed to private to post in public, something he's also notorious for doing. I can't link to the actual comment, but i can link to the first person who replied to it, for the sack of context: http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/...../#cid:31827142
And that's to say nothing of the fact that the account is only 7 days old (which would mean that the account was made AFTER Taran blocked her stalker), the fact that he admits to ALSO being from Sweden in his "intro journal", AND the fact that he claims he's besties with the stalker, and that that stalker was why he got into furries. Way, way, WAY too much coincidence, there."
If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But given the circumstantial evidence, a quick comparison of IP addresses would turn circumstantial evidence into CONCRETE evidence.
My point really is this: You guys have an obligation to make this a safe, fair, and working site for the people and artists that use it. I have not felt it was any of those things for a few months now. I continue to use it because I like it, but I've begun making my mark elsewhere so as not to feel tied and have as much stalk in FA.
Please think on the words of the users here and the events that transpired. Stalking is not ok, unfair bias is not ok, snap judgements ands reactionary site management is not ok. Not with anyone I really think.
Thank you, I hope my comment does not offend.
"The fact that I can't see submissions or comments that a user removed is totally out of my control,"
This technical deficiency is IMO the backbone of this particular clusterfuck. What is your deleted content retention/backup policy?
Additionally, do you have a way to prioritize tickets based on urgency?
Thanks!
Right now everything on Weasyl is soft-deleted. No data is automatically purged from the site, and the entire site is backed up off-site daily.
Tickets are listed right now in order of receipt, but can also include severity in the report.
"Issue" regards streaming feature on Weasyl, the thing that initially seemed done wrong. Shouldn't it be more visible and easily accessible? It's not really comparable to commissions/requests/trades. The latter stay open or closed for prolonged amounts of time so it's fine to get deep into options to change them; however streams usually last only few hours. I think something like a on/off button would be an improvement over current form of this setting (while still retaining stream location and description deeper in the options as these rarely change). What do you think?
Wait, you will make sure... are you tech staff leader or what? xD
I think that's a good way to do it (and is the way most companies do it), that way if you need to look for evidence you can just comb through the backups. As your site grows, you will need to consider how long you want to retain those backups for (is there a legal precedent for this?), and you might make sure it is feasible for your admins to search them. If you have to have physical tapes delivered that could be a bit of a pain - iirc when I worked for a major hosting provider, to un-delete anything over a month old required we send off a request to the backup department which was slow and cumbersome, but newer backups were easy to look through.
I would suggest that tickets that involve harm to others (harassment and stalking) either be put in a separate queue or be handled by a dedicated team so they can be resolved quickly. Somebody might think that their particular case of art theft or somebody's inappropriate content is "high severity", but even at the worst of times, those things aren't as time sensitive as harassment. Just IMO of course.
I'm interested to see what you guys do with the site. I hope it gains the traction it needs!
Just food for thought. For now, I too move to Weasyl.
Seriously dude, this makes no sense and it seems out of place :/
Would have been an easy fix. Contact police and/or file a ticket. Instead? She broke the rules of the site. The admin was right in the course of action. Perhaps that guy will be punished, but do you honestly think making this helps? Instead of "OMG the admins are so cruel wahh", try making a trouble ticket against the guy who did this, or contact the police yourself -.- [sigh] Furries and their NEED for drama.
There is nothing wrong with the site, it's the furries themselves.
That guy was definitely in the wrong and should be doing time for this, but this isn't the right way to go about it. [Head shake] I am predicting a lot of hate to my comment here. [Shrugs] Truth hurts, but that's how it is.
Should have been handled privately, but it wasn't. Furries.
It's important to raise awareness of a potential threat to other people, doubly so if proper authorities have taken no action in stopping any potential future problems from taking place. Even if there's a rule against something like that, this should provide a good example of why having rules in absolute can be kind of ridiculous sometimes.
Submit a ticket...get no response, submit another and get a shitty response...I think speaking up about it is the correct thing to do. When you say nothing, and handle this privately, no one is aware of the places they're inhabiting. i'd certainly like to be informed of stuff like this so that i know how they will handle it if something like this happens to me.
yes, sometimes handling things privately is the answer, but sometimes sitting back and being quiet isn't the right thing to do. Silencing the person is exactly why dragoneer is being targetting for being a jerk. And handling things privately obviously wasn't going to happen. On top of the fact this matter was already handled the proper way and got a crap response.
Yeah except the backwards admins who lack proffessionality and blame the victims for bad experiences.
Now, calm down. There's a totally different approach to this. You shouldn't get riled up over this.
I had a small ray of hope when they brought in new admins, that maybe their standards and maturity would get better. But apparently it hasn't. I'm disgusted, and I hope Weasyl's traffic picks up enough to where I could move over to it without loss of business.
LOL NEWBIE ADMIN MISTAKE(?)
Hell, this should be a huge problem but instead it's just brushed aside and the one being harassed is being punished?? Ugh.
I'm seriously considering going to Weasyl.
I wish the best for your friend and will be following you on Weasyl. I'm not 100% on board with their layout and way of doing things, but I'd rather feel a little weird navigating than feel threatened in a familiar place.
We try to stay out of personal disputes, nor do not tolerate criminal behavior or exploitation on the site. The only evidence I saw available was that action was taken against Tarangryph over a journal that regariding issues with another user on the site. We asked Taran to block the person given their behavior, and if anything further happened to open a Trouble Ticket against the user. That's it.
I was not aware of any other issues besides that, so I apologize if my comment was taken out of context as some sort of support for this behavior against Taran. It wasn't intended to be that way.
Stalking is not an easy issue to handle, hence why our first suggestion is for users to block stalkers. If the stalker attempt to circumvent that action, we'll step in and stop Taran, which is what we told Taran in this issue.
I understand that FA has rules and all, but a little due diligence would do wonders in making the admin team look like professionals…or at least human.
I can lay the smack down on people, but I have to have a valid reason to do so. I have to have proof.
But yes. People make shit up about people ALL OF THE TIME. You can't rely on anything but evidence.
Give Dragoneer the evidence and he'll ban them.
And FA admins just make up the rules as they go along!
I'm not saying this guy didn't stalk her, because I see no reason for her to lie. But you CAN'T ban someone based solely on someone's claims.
i really do hope that they at least.. block the person? and contact the police? i had a stalking issue a few years back, i know how scary it is, i just hope it works out one way or another. but that isn't really something that should only be handled via art site.
I remember it said in the rules that youre not alowed to blackmail or point people out in a bad way in journals?
But in her shouts you see this guy spamming her shouts, how is that not proof?
Hence why we asked Taran to block him. If a user blocks a stalker, and that person persists, we'll ban them after for attempting to circumvent a block. However, we ask that users block people as their first course of action as a reasonable attempt to show they've tried to stop the person from harassing/stalking them. It gives us solid proof to take action against the user.
Ban someone and they can make a new account, IP ban them and there are plenty of ways around that. Harassment of this level needs to be dealt with off-line. There isn't much any website can do to stop it, especially when it's happening in multiple places. By all accounts it was just starting up here, which is why when the ticket was filed there was not enough evidence against the guy to ban him.
I doubt the result would have been any different on any other website given the same circumstances. Weasyl doesn't seem to be the sort of outfit that bans people based on sketchy evidence, so I'm not sure what moving there will do.
Your administration has failed in its duty to uphold the rules and protect its users from those who would do them harm here on the site.
Shame on you.
And I apologize that things took long. We were still getting caught up on support tickets on the site, and it was not responded to as promptly as it should have been. That said, we were more than willing to work with her to get it resolved, but needed to take proper steps -- blocking the person being the first step.
I just think this rule about only dealing with a situation if there's evidence on THIS SITE ONLY is kinda.. off. It should really be changed so that you can act on a situation with proper evidence from other locations since some of that evidence might not get deleted/removed and is reliable(meaning you can see it yourself without the need of a screencap). Evidence is evidence, it shouldn't matter where it comes from. And if it's protecting someone's life, potentially, all the more reason to use reliable evidence even from a different source. And even if there's different usernames involved, it's a responsible thing to go to the site that has the evidence and have them identify an IP on that account. If it matches the accused on your site. Voila! You have your evidence!
I just don't understand this rule about needing evidence on-site >.< That's my biggest issue here. I understand you're trying to follow the rules now, so I won't complain about how nothing is being done. Just wanna know what's up with that rule? It really should be changed..
Every situation like this should be a learning experience for any site admin, but if you keep the rules the same and just keep letting situations like this happen and go unsolved even, then things are gonna turn real ugly. Just a fair warning :c
I like FA and all but if the admins are not going to handle situations as well as they should, it is hard to find comfort in this site. Now I am feeling concerned about user safety because anyone can easily secretly stalk a user and not get caught by deleting evidence before the staff see it, even if there is evidence elsewhere, the user on here remains a blank slate which is VERY SCARY because some of these stalkers can be extremely dangerous to the point they do stalk users IRL and get physical hold of them and gosh.. it just freaks me out :c But if they're banned in time, they could lose interest or move on elsewhere and be rid of FA. FA can't take action outside of the site. But that doesn't mean you can't look at evidence outside to take action IN the site. Just my thought on it. I see this rule of handling things only if evidence is found on the site to be a major problem now and a potential danger to user safety. That is now a big issue.
Unfortunately, you are dealing with people too, and while it is hard to tell sometimes if a case of abuse is valid or not, I think it is a better policy to decide for victim protection rather than perpetrator protection. People don't operate in a vacuum on your site. What they do elsewhere is a good indication of their frame of mind, and when it looks bad, it is bad.
Unlike law enforcement, you can afford being compassionate.
"We still have a copy!"
-- Silence.
>Neer says it's still there, actually.
Insert foot in mouth
The FA rules did not come down from god on a set of stone tablets. The rules are a shorthand for "we want this site to be a happy, friendly and peaceful place where people can post and comment on art without feeling threatened or harassed". If someone can harass and hurt someone while still following the letter of the rules, then you can still ban them, because you made the damn rules in the first place to avoid just those situations
Seems like ya dont win either way.
This is going to be fun, if so.
Shame he won't fess up to this fact in particular, I'm sure.
So, do you want your site used to continue a pattern of offsite harrassment until it escalates or do you want to nip it in the bud?
The issue is that the staffer involved, while technically, did the "right thing" they didn't make the victim feel safe in the slightest. It looks like she feels shut out. A more appropriate response would have been-
1. Tell the victim to please block the the stalker and while they understand her position, at this the staff cannot intervene until they break FA's rules but that if they ban-evade to get back in contact with her he's out.
2. Warn the stalker that making others uncomfortable is not welcome on this site. Tell them they need to edit the stories to remove all mentions of the victim or they're coming down.
3. Leave the journal up if it was factual. FA does state call out journals are OK if they are factual, correct? This should still stand.
I know this is all coming after the fact, and that the guy is banned now but hopefully situations like this can be handled with a bit more sensitivity towards the victim.
Hahaha GOOD ONE, So you remember that one user, what was their name, Chewfox was it?
They DARED go on tv and talk about their lifestyle in a respectable way, and thussly needed to be RIGHTFULLY SMITED AND PUNISHED. Sure, they did nothing on FA and technically hurt no one, there were no victims, but fuck it THEY NEED TO BE DELT WITH.
But a sexual predator and stalker using YOUR website to prey on the users? Nah they should be just overlooked and action should be avoided at all costs until they do something like make an account to ban evade. After all, ban evading is a no no. Sexual predation and stalking, well, we'll just look at that later, or not, whatever.
Seriously 'Neer, normally I like you and have no beef with you or how run your site but this is some real fucking bullshit man.
This is a bunch of overreaction against the wrong people IMO.
I am a user of the block feature, but it's not really a fail safe to getting rid of someone who's obviously seriously adamant about talking to someone.
On top of the fact that trouble tickets seem to just fly into the abyss, so he could've ended up doing more damage in the time it took them to respond instead of handling it properly the FIRST time.
If the police had gotten involved, they would've had to look at all sites that this took place in, and since it came to FA, naturally, they would look here. The admins are also well within their rights to remove her journal regardless of whether or not it was a proper warning journal or a call out journal, but again, just because one is within their rights to do something, doesn't necesarily mean it's okay to do. Sometimes the rules must be challenged when there's something wrong, and clearly, there is something wrong.
i didn't say don't block, I employ the feature myself, but what i am saying is, there's a reason the block system isn't adequate enough. And to just delete without even questioning, or investigating, or even so much as asking is ridiculous. A stalker is a stalker and that means they're going to employ everything in their power to continue to talk to the person if they've already shown to be THIS adamant about it. At that point, if the victim had sufficient proof, whether or not it happened here or not is irrelevant. She could easily show proof that this guy shouldn't be allowed to further continue anything because, and as he's shown by creating a dummy account, he's dangerous. This isn't just a matter of 'oh it's the internet, block and move on' this is a DANGEROUS ISSUE with people's personal information being compromised.
No one's sitting here saying FA has to act like the police of the internet, but when it comes here, and it did, THEN it's a problem that FA needs to take seriously, especially if presented with enough evidence that this person was indeed here to harrass.
it's really starting to seem like you refuse to see what's wrong with the situation simply because you think everyone's just here to jump on the 'let's hate the admins' bandwagon, but frankly, people have enough of a reason to be upset, they're giving you situations and reasons why, and to me, they're adequate. i'm merely presenting with an opposite view.
Why allow him to "continue doing what he was doing" at all when it's pretty much enough at this point? He's chased her, she's sick of it, so the first thing she does is contact an admin because blocking probably wouldn't have done her any good as the guy already has shown how obsessive she is. THAT'S why the report was placed immediately without the block. Why would she assume that it would've done any good after how he's acted already?
Yes, blocking is ideal, but it's not always the correct course of action, nor is it always the most efficient.
And no, FA cannot do anything about the other websites or off site drama, but the drama CAME HERE. It's like you're completely ignoring that fact and acting like she ran here to tell on the guy. When it got here, THAT'S when it became FA's problem, and handling it afterwards is why there was an issue.
I don't see how the block system "isn't adequate" enough, as it's a pretty concrete thing in terms of keeping someone from commenting or shouting on your page without breaking a site rule that would get you removed fairly quickly. She posted a TT about a user harassing her -off-site- and made a journal with "evidence" pointing to things that happened -off-site- and it was removed as per the rules. If she had blocked him, and he evaded it, she could reblock him again, report him, and had the problem taken care of without the added explosion that's come about. Not blocking him because it "isn't adequate enough" is just as much a poor excuse as it was before. There is absolutely no reason why it shouldn't of been used in this case. Then he couldn't shout on her page like he did, or comment on her journal like (I assume) he did.
"it's really starting to seem like you refuse to see what's wrong with the situation simply because you think everyone's just here to jump on the 'let's hate the admins' bandwagon"
Like you, I have a different opinion on this matter. I've given my reasons and stated them pretty clearly. In the same breath that you say I'm throwing out your arguments, you're pretty much throwing out mine as if I'm already pre-biased against you. I don't like how Neer has run his site, or the admins have handled their business, but I don't personally see them as doing anything wrong in this case. That is my opinion. You obviously have a different one.
And yes, the drama did indeed COME HERE, but how it was handled by the admins was simply because of how it was handled by her. He did not break a FA rule, and FA does not ban for off-site drama. If you think that rule should be changed, then say so. Otherwise, they did exactly what they were supposed to do with the information that they had. It may of been a different story if Taran had used the blocklist and things developed differently. But that's not what happened.
Either way, I feel sorry for her. I hope she gets rid of this creep one way or another.
It's way too easy to just slap someone with the TOS and turn the other cheek. That in itself will bring more drama. Case in point, the comments on this journal. The fact that no one took the evidence in account simply because it happened off site is crazy and it's why I'm voicing my opinion.
And FA DOES ban for off site drama. They've done it before, which is why I'm not sympathetic in the way this was handled now. The past comes back to haunt you, and in this case it worked agains Dragoneer because of his past actions and how he handled things.
No one is saying for him to police DA, but to completely write off a potentially dangerous situation simply because it didn't start here is naive. At some point, you need to stand back and make a moral decision and not just plop a copy pasted TOS response. Take EVERYTHING into account and if it was merely drama, then you won't need to do anything further. If someone is doing something obviously dangerous and obviously illegal and comes to another site in an attempt to avoid banning, then that persons' actions, when brought to the attention of this sites admins, should be taken into account. With the way things are handled, any dangerous person would be able to do damage here before being sought out by the radar.
If this was a less serious issue, then i would agree, the admins handled it sufficiently (though I do really think they need to think about a proper warning system or a forum where people who actively feel harrassed and for good reason, can present evidence here or elsewhere to support their claim). But this became something more than just a couple users being brats to each other. And that's why I think that simply popping in a TOS is inefficient. It's also why I think nipping it in the bud would've been the best course of action.
And he did break FA rules, but he avoided it by wiping the slate clean, an exploitable loophole especially with the fact screencaps aren't considered viable evidence as people can alter them. So even if someone screencapped the evidence, I doubt it would've even been looked at.
But again, FA does and has banned for incidences off site. It's completely inconsistent with things like that, it's why people are so confused that it didn't happen this time where it actually NEEDED to happen.
I also hope that this idiot gets slapped with a criminal charge and the girl can get some peace of mind and rest from his bullshit. I wish her happiness.
You keep saying that he shouldn't ban for off site drama. And he shouldn't. But this isn't just some whining drama, this is an issue of really heightened harrassment which could very well be a danger to this person's life. When it becomes more than just some silly childish nonsense, is when the admins need to take a moral standing on it and not just slap the TOS down. You use the rules as guidelines, sure, but there comes a time where you have to think "will turning the other cheek and citing the TOS work out better or worse for me than if I took into account all evidence regardless of where it's from and made an informed decision afterwards."
To completely write it off just because it didn't happen here is childish, and it's a huuuuuuuuge red flag in the way of the guy's personal standards. it's one thing to do something based on the rules of the site, it's another altogether to step in and make a rational informed decision taking everything into account. Why couldn't he do both? Remove said journal, AND figure out what was wrong? Why couldn't he inform her to block him AND figure out if this was something to take into the permabanned status? I'm not sitting here saying that he didn't follow the TOS, he probably did, I don't know as i didn't see the journal, but simply using the TOS, one that's constantly revised for it's fubar areas, isn't always sufficient. If someone is enough of a threat, then they should be eradicated if enough evidence is shown to further prevent them doing anything else like this.
Dragoneer is human, but robotically citing the TOS without consideration for something that very well could've easily given him all the answers he needed against this guy doesn't exactly help people to remember he is.
You can't ask people to not react in a way when they've had to experience this happen multiple times. When the change happens, THEN we will use the new change to further define his actions. But until such a time as that comes, we have no choice but to go on the way he handled things in the past. Everyone has to deal with this. You mess up in the past, It will probably come up later. The only time you can stop this from happening, is if you've clearly showed on multiple occassions that you have changed. The way he acted now IS THE SAME AS HOW HE'S ACTED BEFORE, so I'm not sure why we shouldn't looked to the past to take ques from the present.
Actions speak louder than words and if he wants, or if anyone wants, to correct their past mistakes, they will do well by doing instead of saying.
The reason people are saying "well why the hell" is because of how inconsistant he is, not just with these matters, but others as well. the guy's just flat out inconsistent. It's a flaw that a lot of us have, but not all of us are in a place where our inconsistentcies affect a bunch of people. We're not asking him to do more than apply some moral judgement in a place where the rules can't always be there to guide. As I said before, you may use the rules as a guideline, but you also have to apply some moral decisions. In this case, taking into account all the evidence, and using it to further allow you to react. Anyone can just plop down a TOS and be done with it. And that's why this problem is the way it is. Because in doing so he made it SEEM like he was insensitive and inactive. Not saying he flat out is, but there's a reason this exploded the way it did. And that's because of the lack of PR skills and what it was made to look like.
He's the admin of the site and can obviously ban anyone he likes at anytime, and telling him to bend the rules in a case like this creates a slippery slope. FA didn't do anything wrong in following their own guidelines. Neer isn't some horrible stalker/rapist enabler. He can just be a shitty admin sometimes. And in this case he actually did the right thing with the evidence that was provided to him at the time. People need to get over it.
I would agree with you if this was just some tiff between two people, and had he done what everyone is wanting, and taken everything into account, then he could've seen that this wasn't the case. I can see blowing off just two idiots fighting on one site and then coming here trying to get everyone involved. I can see if it was anything but a dangerous situation that will make the site owners look bad if they don't nip it in the bud ESPECIALLY when presented with enough reasoning why doing so would've been the best and logical course of action.
I'm not saying he's some shitty enabler, but he certainly didn't make himself look like anything other than such. And if he wanted to use that crappy technicality to avoid having to use a moral compass in some situations, that it had to happen here, HE DELETED THE EVIDENCE HERE. And since there's that loophole where you can't submit screencaps for evidence, any person could in theory post something bad, and then delete it before the admins are alerted to avoid problems. That's why we're saying WEIGH EVERYTHING.
Yes, if it was a call out journal, then it should've been deleted. What we're saying his TAKE IT INTO ACCOUNT. That journal that was deleted provided enough proof that he was being a stalker, he ADMITTED to it and claimed it was making her famous. That happened HERE. There's your proof that it was something that could've been banned for if you want to keep throwing away viable evidence just because it didn't happen here. But as it was deleted, and screencaps aren't allowed, how do you expect her to prove this? She can't, because of the loophole, which is why in this instance all evidence should've been accounted for.
It the fact that he has and keeps prying for information, even though it's clear he's already found it. It's like him indirectly saying "I've got this information about you. Be aware of me" that makes him dangerous. It's the fact that he's so obsessive he goes out and looks for said information and posts it that makes him dangerous. it's the fact that he now has this information that makes him dangerous. It's also why everyone's telling this person to seek criminal charges.
So yes, this guy, wielding personal information such as phone numbers and addresses constantly harrassing someone and showing he is mentally unstable, is dangerous. It's not an overreaction when you consider everything.
Sure, the argument could be made that in the wrong hands, that information might lead to possible dangerous situations, but it seems to me that the person posting the information is the one on the top of the very short list of people having "the wrong hands". If the worst person to have it is the person who posted it, there's no point in crying over the spilled milk to the admins. It's time to bring it to the attention of the proper authorities - as you pointed out that everyone is encouraging tarangryph to do. I agree with that wholeheartedly. However, having a knock-down, drag-out, mudslinging fisticuffs that vilifies FA's admins with regard to how the situation was handled here just seems pointless and misdirected to me.
The root of the whole matter was based on the perception that the victim was "punished" while the aggressor was "protected". That was the unfortunate outcome of the fact that the "victim" had broken a site rule and the aggressor hadn't been confirmed to. Now that it has been determined that he had broken one, too, his account has been suspended. The time it took to get to that point was a byproduct of the Internet and court of public opinion moving much faster than the investigation process.
I still think the whole blow-up is a largely unhelpful overreaction because it seemed to be directed at the wrong things as a whole. It was like everyone is saying, "FA! Something might happen out in real life! Do something!" when the only one who was equipped to "do something" is tarangryph because she had all the evidence that would be needed to take to the proper authorities. If FA were to take action against the fredriksam, it's like trying to sweep the dirt under a rug. It's still there; just out of sight of the people here. If he was planning on or capable of doing something to endanger tarangryph in real life, getting a slap on the wrist here doesn't help at all.
I still think the evidence should have been properly weighed and not thrown away. I believe BOTH parties are in the wrong in this situation and i would hope that they learned from it. But writing it off so easily is just silly and dangerous in itself.
I don't want people knowing where I live, nor do I want them posting that information in public places. if that guy didn't do anything about it(and I'm sorry, he's proven how mentally unstable he is so i wouldn't put it past him) then what's to say someone else won't. THAT'S dangerous and now it just seems like you picking straws to make the mods seem innocent. i'm sorry, i don't believe either the mods, or the victim handled it properly. And i still believe someone you don't know, someone you didn't give to them, has someone's informations and is posting it, is dangerous. If it wasn't, we wouldn't have dateline, we wouldn't have the craig's list muderor. It's dangerous, just because nothing has come from it so far doesn't negate that it is.
I don't think both parties are in the wrong, exactly, and I do think FA was wrong for deleting the journal, but only because I don't agree with the "no call out" rule. If someone wants to post something on their own journal, the FA admins shouldn't care what the content of it is. I also simultaneously don't think they were in the wrong because they were just enforcing their own (stupid) policy. Taryngryph was only "in the wrong" because she "violated" that (stupid) policy. Thus, it has created quite a mental conflict. Heh.
aaannnndd regardless of how you view the whole thing, leaving the site over this drama just seems like the dumbest course of action to me. :p
But anyway, you're probably right. Agree to disagree. :p
And about the address thing, more power to you, but just because you do something doesn't negate the fact that it's a very dangerous thing. One that people warn about constantly. I mean some sites even delete journals or notes or comments if they contain personal information, FA is one of those sites. It's done to protect people. If it was completely safe then those restrictions wouldn't be needed. People don't give away their information willy nilly for a reason. I'm sure you can find my information at some point too, but there's a reason we're all taught security measures before jumping on the internet. There's a reason parents need to monitor their children and there's a reason why people imploy these things. I'm glad you've not had a problem with a security breach. But again, just because it hasn't happened, doesn't mean it won't and isn't a clear indicator that things are safe. All that guy had to do was post that information in some place like Lulz or 4chan and that would've caused a hell of a mess. Why? Because some people are not to be trusted. Period. So hiding that type of information is imperitive.
I just hope everyone learned something from this incident.
I don't know if blocking a user really should completely keep them from viewing content on your page, though. In cases like this, I could see why you should, but in a vast majority of cases, the problem isn't something this major and that that seems a little harsh.
And considering he noted Q asking about personal information on FA, the volume of shouts he delivered to her page, and the evidence and comments he left in her journal should be reason enough to take action.
But I know that idea is dangerous. It restricts freedoms and can be abused so hard. But there needs to be a sort've system like this in place or something along the lines. Maybe, like in this case, note or TT an administrator and request that they block your content from reaching the person in question. If they get enough evidence, they could make it look like to them your account is dead. They won't see new art or journals by visiting your page, and with the block won't be able to contact you about it. Of course the evasion thing comes into play here again, but it's just an idea. Doesn't have to be used or taken seriously, but it's a user trying to make a contribution to prevent things like this happening again.
As for the 2.0 part, I sure as hell hope that someday happens. It might be one of the only things that could help save the decline. Give better features and protection to users and reassure them they're in control. But as for response time with TT's, I don't want to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but it probably has to do with popularity. My old account and even now, I was and still am a nobody with a very small following compared to more popular artists and even fewer friends. I'm pretty sure some idiots out there have abused the TT system in that way, to which the staff should suspend their privileges with the TT at intervals to prevent them from flooding the system with bogus claims.
My case might not have been THIS severe, but I had a stalker that despite my attempts to get him to leave me alone, persisted in staying in contact with me.
He constantly harrassed my friends, off-site sadly, for information on what I was doing and to try and get messages passed along to me. I finally made a journal about it, to which he countered with a journal of his own, and I finally jumped ship and started new on this account.
Furthermore, I sent a TT about this user, but the FA staff took a good two months to finally acknowledge the ticket, but by then I was already on this new account.
I hope that poor girl gets some peace of mind and can get away from this freak.
Peace of mind won't come easy, but hopefully she can see all the support and defense she's getting from the community and at least know she's not alone.
In regards to the person being harassed..... I ask... why do they not contact police and make a restraining order against the person if they are harassing and obvious stalking? Seems like something that needs to be handled by POLICE... not FA. So please, if this is really a major issue contact local law enforcement, not FA.
California stalking laws, considered among the toughest and most comprehensive in the nation, are defined in Penal Code 646.9. Stalking, in its simplest form, is repeatedly following, harassing and/or threatening another person to the point where that individual fears for his/her safety or the safety of his/her family.
1.2. The Legal Definition of Stalking in California
The legal definition of stalking in California refers to three facts the prosecutor must prove (otherwise known as "elements of the crime"):
that you willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly followed ... or willfully and maliciously harassed ... another person,
that you made a credible threat against that person, and
that you did so with the specific intent to place that individual in reasonable fear for his/her safety or for the safety of his/her immediate family.
If the alleged victim claims to have had a temporary restraining order, injunction, or other court protective order against you, the prosecutor must additionally prove
that a protective order against you was in effect at the time of your alleged illegal conduct, prohibiting you from engaging in such conduct.
A credible threat
A credible threat is one that causes the threatened person reasonably to fear for his/her safety or for the safety of his/her immediate family. In order to be "credible", the person making the threat must have the apparent ability to carry out the threat...even if s/he doesn't actually intend to do so.
A credible threat may be made verbally, in writing, through the means of an electronic communication device ("electronic communication" devices include, but are not limited to, telephones, cell phones, pagers, text messages, fax machines, and e-mails OR in any other manner that communicates the threat to the intended target.
Lol. Typo, much? (I sincerely hope that's a typo...)
Sorry about that, and apologies to Taran as well.
I understand people's frustrations, but we can't take action for what happens on any other site than FA. People can call me incompetent all they want for that, but our rules only apply to actions /on/ FA.
It's about preventing new shit from starting up..
Also on a personal note I must ask, I'm not sure if I sent a TT about
Please answer if you have the time.
Thanks.
Just because I sent you that dead rat for Valentine’s Day does NOT mean I’m stalking you!
(Seriously, though, the admins should have a little common sense when dealing with this; if actual evidence exists of stalker behavior, on- or off-site, the admins should do what they can to prevent it from happening once they become aware of it.)
This was a warning, yes, but it was a warning against a user up until that point had broken no FA rules. Where do ask that we draw the line?
Why can't you ban stalkers as well?
So, yes, if you admit to committing illegal activity or TOS breaking admissions on the site we will take action. You fess up to it. The user here did not, and the evidence against him was circumstantial at best.
Plus he would ban people for mentioning Allan (LupinAssassin)
Chewfox for gloating about doing something that crashed FA; not for appearing on Tyra Banks.
Mentioning Allan (LupineAssassin) on FA.
Somehow, the common denominator here is FA. How is it "offsite banning"?
Just because the links she may of posted or whatever in the journal are gone, doesn't mean whatever they linked to aren't still on the internet. The "evidence" wouldn't of magically disappeared just because her attack journal got taken down.
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/...../#cid:30947779
You can't read.
If the "subject" deletes - that means if the person who WROTE the journal deletes it then no, they can't see it. If THEY delete it, it's 'hidden.'
Why can't you ban stalkers as well?
Thanks for your opinion, about my opinion. Go away now. ^^
Seems like it'd be common sense really because think about it like this. What if, because FA doesn't do anything and let's such behavior continue on their watch, the said stalker actually ends up doing something to their target in real life and FA was shown to at the very least not have done anything on their part to stop it. That's one hell of a PR hit you'd be opening yourselves up to.
And as for evidence, isn't it FA's policy of not allowing a person to provide screen caps of messages sent from a harasser? Exactly how is one supposed to present evidence of such happenings under the current TOS and AUP?
And for the record, I've seen a few times where FA admins have taken bannings of FA users for reasons off site, so let's not go there.
FA has a history of poor administration, so you and the admin team must work to improve that image. That means you and the admins have to act like professionals and start policing everyone with equal treatment.
Yes, that means eventually suspending Qarrezel for making a call-out journal (rules is rules), but it also means taking a close look at Taran’s claims before taking any action against either Taran or the called-out user in question.
I don’t believe FA should do a damn thing about off-site problems, but when those problems come to FA in any way, a little due diligence from the admins wouldn’t hurt.
Thhhhiiiiiiiiiiiissss. So very, very this. I think this is the biggest issue here ATM. Things are being handled very unprofessionally here. :/
She confided in the Admins of F.A to keep her 30% safe and you all chose to protect the harasser instead. If you see bruises on a woman and she lives with her boyfriend aren't you going to assume he beats her? The Journals, Screen Shots, and comments were deleted or thrown away like a used tissue.
Now assuming he doesn't follow her to another site, (its your job to protect her on yours) What if he was to hurt her in real life God forbid. You pretty much either turned a blind eye to a crime saying "Its not our problem" or you made the stalker think its okay to continue with his disgusting behavior. You can't blame those who are mad at you because they have common sense to understand he was wrong and that what was done to her is also wrong.
It sounds stupid, but ever hear of a song called Locking up the sun by poets of the fall? There's many verses in the song that people need to help out each other and not always stay about things like this and how the victims have lost hope in getting help. There is also a show called "Stalked" Where many women where actually KILLED because of something so (I'll use this term lightly) "Little." Weather it being a man or woman being stalked it changes people, changes who they could and would have been. She's constantly wondering if she's gonna run into him again, now she has to move, And if her job finds out about these rape stories or what ever SHE can be fired even though its a huge lie.
Just think outside the box and try to see it as if your in a movie theater, are you going to be in favor of the murder or the person who is running away for their lives? That's a big extreme yes but when some one has a obsessive behavior called stalking you don't know what someone can do.
You have to wonder how people let themselves get harassed in the first place by being too upfront with their personal information. All it takes is someone too trusting, and another person too stupid to respect privacy, and you have an issue like this. Forehead smack.
I think anyone expecting "morals" from people who run a huge community website obviously don't understand the role behind running a site like this. Impartiality is absolutely necessary. Expecting admins to read into all of the backstory and coming up with decisions based on personal matters is ridiculous.
At the same time, people using journals and comments to incur inflammatory behaviour towards someone they perceive to be wronging them makes that "victim" no better than the person who disrespects their privacy.
I say: If you can't handle your own personal privacy, you shouldn't be using social media anyway. It doesn't matter if it's FA or Weasyl or wherever.
The guy was stalking her, clearly, especially as evident by the shouts he left on her page.
Wanting to know if her first name is correct, constantly badgering her about their meet at Eurofurence, making SURE she knew that he knew who she was.
It may not have happened on dA, but guess what? All the stalking and what I said above happened ON FURAFFINITY. If uploading stalker pictures to another website, stalking the person on another, and then saying that the user can't be banned from said website because it occurred on another is right? Then guess what 'Neer? You just basically said you allow stalkers onto the website with that loophole.
Sure, she shouldn't have created a callout journal, but she was being STALKED on YOUR website by a guy who uploaded pictures to ANOTHER website to ensure that HIS pictures couldn't be taken down and HE could be banned.
That loophole is the complete downfall of your argument. I'm going to agree with
It's obvious this guy was stalking her on FA, not dA.
The pictures were uploaded to dA, but a majority of the harassment happened here on FurAffinity.
this so much.
If you can't look at Taran's page, see the comments he's left, and not thought them creepy and over the line.....you probably have some issues with social boundaries too.
Those screencaps and the "evidence" that Dragoneer and the admins are looking for is lost. Why? BECAUSE THEY DELETED THE ONLY FUCKING EVIDENCE THAT THE USER HAD!
If you have the GALL to claim you have no evidence when you DELETED the evidence in the first place, YOU SHOT YOURSELF IN THE FUCKING FOOT!
Now YOU look bad that you let someone practicing criminal behavior run around the site because you deleted the evidence against them.
TL;DR Tampering with the evidence.
I do realize the need for proof though, beyond just here say. In this situation though, online where nothing is truly deleted and records abound, proof of harassment and stalking should be very easy to find if people want to find it. I think that's the key here, you or various parties aren't appearing to want to find evidence of wrongdoing and want to just smooth things over and let people fend for themselves. I'm sure there is some disclaimer in the user agreement saying you aren't responsible for the content people post and the like, but it is just plain good PR to come down on people sometimes when it's warranted, and it makes long term sense, you may lose a couple people close to you who don't like it, but the rest should respect you more and you will gain more in the process.
Just my two cents, people crave for justice.
You,as far as I can see, are not doing your job as a website admin. You are intentionally breaking the law by letting this user continue to stay on the site and possibly risk the situation getting out of hand. How would you feel if I started acting like this guy towards you? Finding out all your info and leaking it, writing sick twist fantasies about how I fuck your fursuit and even your self?
It doesn't sound nice does it? So how about you step up and do your god damn job and IP ban the guy before a situation like this occurs all over again!
I'm not saying this will happen, but it is a risk.
HARD TO IMAGINE!!!!
Having seen how some of the admins have reacted when someone gets named in a journal as a 'bad person', the writer of the journal has always been punished for insigating negative behaviour angainst someone else (buddy is getting hate filled shouts on his page). I fully expect your journal will be deleted and you will get a talking to.
I am not defending the person you named but making you aware that you will probably get a taking to for naming who he is.
I agree it seems the victim gets done over again and again. I hope everything gets settled out in some form of positivness for yourself and your friend. In the meantime I will join weasyl and follow you there, missing out on your awesome artwork would just suck.
the only reason why i haven't permanently moved is because it's so dead right now.
plan to use it a lot more now.
FA commonly deletes "attack journals", as they don't usually serve a purpose. This isn't FA defending this weirdo. It's simply the rule of the site.
This is not one of those occassions.
This would be a WARNING to anyone who would potentially have to handle this guy, this is also evidence of this person's actions so that if it happens again, one may look back and take this as further reason to do whatever they need to to get rid of this guy. On top of the fact it's riddled with evidence and truths that can easily be see and looked up with a little bit of researching.
Just because FA enforced their rule against those types of journals doesn't mean their defending this guy.
I'm not saying they're outright defending the guy, but their actions aren't exactly pointing elsewhere. I'm sure they don't want anyone to be harmed...or at least i'd hope so, but the truth of it is, there's a reason these journals pop up, because of the way things look. And that's all that'll matter when people come pointing fingers.
I personally don't see why it matters where the evidence came from. Dangerous stalking is dangerous stalking and evidence is evidence and shouldn't be looked over just because it happened on DA. It should be taken into account regardless.
The TOS is a crock IMO because the admins will not follow it to a T and there's too much room for inconsistency. Things like this bring attention to the inconstancies and it's why the TOS is updated so much.
I love this site but Dragoneer is fucking incompetent, and never does anything unless it becomes an issue in HIS life. Which is never. He's banned a couple of lesser guys since I came here, but he lets THAT guy stay when he's clearly a real, mental-case stalker?!? Is he deliberately trying to make people hate this website? I'm starting to get that impression myself; I think he just likes watching us squirm nowadays.
On the same note, if there was a report for every stolen piece of art / unauthorized use of intellectual property (By the owner of each) this guy would have to be insta-banned.
I think it is time some of us get together and develop a community that respects it's members, not just sees them as another number.
If any one else wants to, post it under my page and we can make a little discussion about it in my journal.
(I will be posting a link to this post on my journal, any who are interested in creating a new site let me know, I have a substantial amount of knowledge concerning legal matters, so I can draft a EULA, if it comes to that.)
We can not be expected to take action for what a user does outside of our domain.
Your job as an admin is not to enforce the letter of the rules, it is to make FA a vibrant, safe and pleasant community for its users. If following the rules does not achieve that, then the rules need to be changed, or bent in exceptional cases such as allowing a callout journal in the case of a dangerously obsessed stalker
In this case, you can bend the rules, to close those loopholes. You are not a federal judge.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_ZiRT8Nwkk
You ban proven pedophiles and zoophiles, and that is technically outside of your domain, yes? Not saying I'm against that, because I approve of it 100%, but I highly doubt anyone would protest if you banned this guy too.
You really just said that....really?
"Am hurting or helping the situation by doing nothing/something to this person or this person?"
Mind you, a ban will only do so much honestly.
Why have you not bothered to inform this person to go to the police and file a report against them considering there has been death threats, rape threats, and all this? Would FA even comply to law enforcement to provide the evidence needed?
The fact that so many websites, conventions, places in general, even government offices, don't take stalking and harassment seriously enough is sick. It enables these weirdos to do damage under the guise of 'we can't prove it, we can't do anything'....when you could. Maybe not much, but you could.
I've seen plenty of crime documentaries where someone with evidence or a massive fear of someone or that harm will come to them, are just ignored. And it never ends well. Stalking needs to be made a capitol offense in my opinion.
It's a web site. It's inherently "safe" because regardless of what words, images, audio clips or video clips someone posts to it, it's a physical impossibility to cause any actual, tangible harm. Given that this site only allows for words, audio, and static images to be posted, there's nothing unsafe about this site. There's no possible way for the words, images, or audio to somehow jump out of the computer screen (or speakers) and start bludgeoning a person. At its core, THAT'S why "stalking and harassment", in the context of the Internet, is not taken very seriously. It's not possible for it to be "serious".
If the "stalker" was actually following the "victim" around, and attempting physical contact or harm in actual, real life, then there are proper authorities for dealing with those things. Until then, this is just a ridiculously blown-out-of-proportion non-issue.
The only thing that's questionable about this whole ridiculousness is the fact that any action was taken, at all. The rule about "call out journals" goes against the ideal behind freedom of speech. Given that this is a private institution, though, that rule is theirs to make. The problem with it is: Now that they've taken action to enforce that rule, it looks like they're siding against the "victim" (and I put "victim" in quotes because a "victim" of words on the Internet isn't really a victim at all) when really, all they were doing was enforcing a (stupid) rule on a private web site - a rule that they are well within their rights to make and enforce.
What it boils down to is: This is a non-issue. Everyone needs to quitchtherbitchin'.
It seems that you haven't been on the other side of the fence, that you don't know victims or what they go through. How people can be pushed. And it's easy for people to sit there and say such things when they haven't seen or heard what people go through. It really is!
Fact is the laws are waaaay behind the times when it comes to cyberstalking and the like. Lawyers hardly know what to do, and even judges think their time is being wasted in regards to such things( http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl.....ught-back.html ). And oh yeah, your fake friends bail on you. It doesn't make it right just because it's only words. And if there's bleed over into another site? If a person is quite possibly avoiding being caught and banned on one site by using another site for their worst offenses? Yeah, we have a serious fucking problem. And THAT needs to be dealt with, it shouldn't resort to ban evasion and sock puppet accounts-especially if that person is possibly gathering all the evidence they can to actually do something in person, which takes a LOT. There's communities on LJ where you're not allowed to go and harass someone for something you saw there, you're not allowed to go and stalk someone on their journal, and if you get caught, they kick you out. Because it's bleed over, because it's harassment, because it's stalking.
As for reporting such things to the cops if you really fear for your life? Like I said, the law is waaaay behind on such things. It's stupid, it's absurd, it's horrific. It's bad enough that when my brother tried to break my arm in the door, the cops scoffed, treated me like shit and refused to let me press charges. Yes! They do that! They'll write things off so they don't have to do more work than needed a lot of the times. And that was clearly physical, it clearly happened just shortly before. So imagine how cyberstalking is going to be dealt with.
I do believe in encouraging people to gather evidence, all that they can, and make a paper trail by repeatedly reporting. But it's not enough. If people know that they can get away with such horrific, terrifying behavior by being only a slight creeper here and doing everything elsewhere...congrats, the site just started enabling stalkers!
FA has their 'out' card, their right 'to suspend or terminate accounts at any time and without notice.', and in a case where a guy is sending up serious red flags, and they DON'T? They don't understand the situation if their response was 'not enough evidence' instead of 'HOLY SHIT'. It's bullshit, and they're making bullshit excuses. They've opened a door, a loophole with their stance, and many people, especially those who have been victims themselves, are scared, and rightfully so. If you create a community and aren't willing to defend and protect your userbase fiercely, then what the fuck are you doing? The lack of PR, the lack of logic and foresight, and the lack of steel balls at the right time is really ticking people off. They could have made a judgement call, and in this situation, I'm certain everyone would have applauded them if they had. The fact that they didn't and well...they reap what they sow.
The article that you linked to contains a story about real life interactions in addition to the undesirable activity on the Internet. I don't dispute that if the incidents go beyond the Internet, it should probably be investigated by the proper authorities; using the evidence from the activities on the Internet to help the case. What I dispute is the over-reactive backlash and expectation that the FA admins need to do anything other than enforce their own policies regarding the content and activities on their site - not someone else's.
Sure, encourage tarangryph to go through the channels and effort to press charges against fredriksam, since that's the only thing that is going to make any bit of difference in helping this matter. Sure, provide her with a support network and the information she needs to effectively approach the proper authorities. Sure, help her get people involved that know how to deal with this stuff in the proper way and who are persistent in actually getting something helpful accomplished in that avenue. Sure, help her with the psychological aspects of it.
Directing the attention and fervor at the FA admins is, in my opinion, a pretty absurd angle to take.
As far as creating a community and being willing to defend and protect the user base goes... I don't have that expectation at all, and I think it's absurd that anyone would have that expectation - particularly in a case where regardless of what they do, administratively on their site, if an obsessive stalker wants to pursue their stalking activity, they're going to pursue it. What FA does to the stalker is completely inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. Now, if they refuse to cooperate with investigators or respond to court orders during the discovery process of legitimate, real life investigation process, I think THAT would be something to take issue with. Until then, their duty is to enforce their own policies.
A situation like this should have raised red flags for anyone with half a mind and empathy. It didn't, and that in itself is scary. Sometimes you can't be a middleman, sometimes you have to make a judgement call and act. They didn't. When you are seeing something right in front of you that should, by all means, be a pressing matter, that you should be able to take action on and you sit on your hands going 'oh, policy, I can't'...that's a problem. You can't, shouldn't be expected to wait around for a rule change. Especially if you have a card that you CAN pull. Especially if someone feels threatened and terrified. You don't go after the victim who feels cornered. You ask questions, you find out why.
It is not absurd if it gets a loophole closed and teaches them something about victims and people who made them such. I don't think anything has been learned, though I'm hoping that it has. The community is calling out for fixing this little loophole that after this fiasco, could end up getting purposely exploited. It shouldn't take ban evasion/sock puppet accounts to stop someone like this, many stalkers are more than happy to bide their time and let the victim calm down and 'forget' before starting up again.
Maybe I have a stronger sense of community than some people, but if you come to my stomping grounds or my house and you start threatening and harassing people there, or you have harassed them elsewhere and they DON'T feel safe with you being them, I'm going to have a problem, and you're going to get kicked out. End of story. I have little care for people who aren't willing to be advocates for victims like this. I've seen too many stories when so-called friends have jeopardized someone who was victimized or was being victimized by putting them in an unsafe environment and were to selfish to either get the victim out or make the abuser/attacker/harasser/stalker/whatever leave. And then when something happens, those so-called friends blame the victim or think they're overreacting. No, just no. And this...is kinda of Dragoneer's internet house....and he's not being a very good host.
I understand not wanting to take action unnecessarily against a user, but how in the world is that the case here? so what if it was FA or DA or InkBunny or SoFurry or Weasyl - I would imagine that protecting someone from harm is far more important.
No. Because what happens off site is not my business. Or any admin's business. What you do off of this site is NOT for us to judge you on, no matter WHAT the circumstance.
I've never heard of someone killing themselves over a pirated game. Not saying Tara would do that, but still.
Has it even come to a realization that a lot of people have committed suicide from the severe harassment on and off furaffinity?
Victims would have hope that maybe this site would be a safe haven that they can easily report the offenders and they'll be gone but no we can't even post screenshots of proof of what happens here because of some people having the stupid habit of ruining shit for the rest of us by editing caps.
Some users actually do not know that deleting shouts, submissions and journals can perma-delete evidence that can help these people get banned.
But still...they can't say it's never happened on this site.
Just sayin', but still!
We need to be better than this, and better people/furs thats for sure :|
Tell me, what state is harassment legal in?
What state is predatory activity legal in?
Never mind... you know I think you have just successfully cut the head off of FA. Way to go! =P
That is still not the issue at hand. The parallel you are trying to draw is terrible at best.
Having known someone killed by someone who was driving while high and another person who lost their job because the game they worked on was pirated more than it was bought so the company had to lay off his department; your, "absolutely not harmful to anyone else" comment is just beyond belief. Anytime someone uses 'absolutely' in a comment is just asking for trouble.
Trying to compare one thing (stalking) to something else (piracy) is only compareable because both are crimes in most of NA. Which is what was being expressed. No moral outlook was being applied, nor were any absolutes given.
I'm not talking about the multitudes of ways that these things escalate, including death of other people that can happen from both instances.
It's basic sense that you do not operate heavy machinery such as an automobile when in an altered mental state. Even driving when upset or depressed is no good.
Your friend's death was the driver's fault, not the plant's.
Right, like banning chewfox just because she angered you by being on TV :/
By that token, you yourself could be arrested for not taking this to the police
This all could have been avoided if she just blocked him, which takes about 1% of the time it took to make a journal about it. Then just put a ticket in afterwards if he kept harassing her.
I really hate to think what would happen if a group of /b/ trolls came here to harass random people
Except for that time you banned Chewfox, I guess.
No. Because what happens off site is not my business. Or any admin's business. What you do off of this site is NOT for us to judge you on, no matter WHAT the circumstance.
but once again you ban baby and animal rapists for admitting it on the site. so yeah if someone IS saying the do drugs and pirate software you SHOULD actually be banning them. why are you trying to make it seem like one crime is better then another?
also, yes you should ban your 'friends'. why would you have special treatment just for people you like? thats kinda bull. im gonna call you out on that regard.
And if we're going to operate on the logic that this occurred before the site policy revisions (I don't know if that's true or not because I don't know the date of this incident), I seem to remember the old COC making a provision under the 'call out' ban, stating that it was acceptable to post journals warning users about art thieves, scammers, or other undesirable individuals of the like, and that it was permissible to list such abusive site users by username
Please correct me if I'm wrong about any of this.
You can not compare people harming themselves by using drugs or by taking intellectual property VS people getting psychicaly devastated by another person who terrorizes them and follows them wherever you go.
You heard me?
YOU CAN'T.
So don't even go down that road.
By not taking any action other than shutting down the victim while feeding your justification that you "did the right thing because call-out journals are against the TOS" you basically support the offender and aggressor in any way possible, giving them the feeling that they have your support and that what they're doing is okay on every level, because the higher institutional force on this website has basically given him permission to proceed in this behaviour and to go without punishment for his deeds.
And that's that.
...you can still just block someone. Which she didn't do. Which would have taken a fraction of the time.
I can't stand these types of comparisons. It's like the old "If they jumped off a bridge, would you follow hem because they did it?" types of things.
Things like pirating games and smoking marijuana are out of your control, and banning someone who proactively brags about smoking would be, obviously, stupid.
However, when presented with a proven stalker, be it happening on your site or not, and the person that the're being stalked by making a bland, blank account just to harass, then I do believe, it is your duty to uphold the "safe" and "secure" website that you moderate. I believe that even if they haven't broken any of the ToS, that if you were to have a bit of goodwill, you would look into this little scenario, which has happened man a time before, and firmly slap the banhammer upon this man to at least be proactive in stopping any attempt of stalkerish behavior.
That being said, our comparison is something that my parents used to use on me, and my only choice was to roll with it and say no instead of calling them out on it. his illegal activity could be taking place on your site, and I believe it is your (or your staff's duty to investigate, and terminate any threats to anyone else's wellbeing
... and that lawsuit would be frivolous and in itself would be grounds for a counter suit. It is a physical impossibility for someone to harm someone else through a web site. The words and images in posts can't and don't jump out of the screen to cut, stab, punch, or bruise the "victim". In this case, this web site would be considered a common carrier and would not be able to be held responsible in the slightest. The evidence that the "attacker" posts to the web site can only be evidence in a case against the attacker - not against the owners of the web site.
The fact that you're comparing apples to oranges is also an issue. People using deadly force in a coffee shop or bar cannot possibly compare to people typing words on the Internet. One thing is causing immediate, imminent, direct physical harm while the other is just causing words to appear on a screen. This is a terrible comparison.
Unfortunately, your IQ is already so low that it can't possibly get any lower, so talking to me won't end up doing any harm. You might even get an a small piece of education as to how the actual world works, instead. (I figured that since we've introduced ad hominems, they're fair game)
In addition, the admin who moderated the journal post has already stated that the contents of the post were preserved in an admin-only area. If they are contacted by authorities to provide whatever evidence they have, and they cooperate by making a reasonable attempt to provide that evidence, that is all that they are legally responsible for doing.
Aaaannd... you've invoked Godwin's Law by mentioning Hitler, so anything you say from this point on is null and void anyway.
Also in case you have failed to pay attention to the posts, both above and below, the issue is that they are protecting someone who is morally deplorable, and have punished a victim. That is what this whole mess is about, last time I checked Failing to report a crime is also obstruction, and you can get them for that. Thing is they left themselves vulnerable, and 'Neers class act comebacks have only made it more of a legal mess for FA.
Question; since when did Godwin's Law Nullify a statement? Oh it doesn't, so explain how my argument that support people of a deplorable nature is invalid? Do some homework on your Debate terms before you cite them.
Look here, if you support pedophiles, stalkers and criminals that is your business, especially if you wish to allocate your time to defend them. My only beef with you is that you are misinformed and delusional.
Also Suspicious activity and Mal-lingering on her page and posting non-stop inside her shout-box. There is no evidence? Some defense. More holes than Swiss cheese after being torn apart by a machine gun.
I appreciate the efforts made to help out with trolls and conflicts that arise but something as serious as stalking and passing out personal info that's really something that needs to be reported to law enforcement, not just a site admin.
Seriously Dragoneer, I respect you, I always thought you were a rather good mod/admin, with flaws here and there. Not perfect but good.
But are you kidding me on this? FA is so strict and policing at times, with admins banning, deleting and modding everything that could be illegal or offensive. Yet here's an issue where someone should look into it and take action, because we're talking about stalking here. Thats a definitve crime. And even if its an overreaction on that Taran persons side, one could not be careful enough to look into it and maybe put a temporary ban on the offender. But no ones does, and worse, the possible victim is targeted.
You say you'd rather not take the "guilty until proven otherwise" approach, but when other mods or admins do it you're fine with it, especially if it concerns stuff that could cause FA to loose its income source (Cub art for example). And when there's possible evidence that this guy might be a stalker, you don't think it would be wise to at least temporary ban him until its secure that he did or didnt do it?
Its not "guilty unless proven otherwise" then, its "banned on suspicion". You can always reverse that. Its the same thing cops do in rl, when someone is arrested on suspicion of doing a crime when evidence against him is there.
And then you use the weak excuse of "It happened on dA, not here."
It partially happened here. Apparantly it happened quite strongly on here. Sure the pics were posted on other sites, but this user and other user that know her more or less were approached by this guy. There were shouts and there are notes. You tell me you can't look into these?
Even if it happened on dA, thats inscriminating evidence off site that you have a stalker and criminal ON THIS SITE, if he has an account here too. If someone would post evidence for him being a pedophile on dA or offsite, you'd immediatily ban his ass on here too.
Come on Dragoneer, admit for once that someone you entrusted with power may have done some bullshit and show action for the victim, not against it. Your solidarity should be for your users, not your admins and mods.
Yet folks who troll the dead or people with other sicknesses get banned sometimes: go figure.
Your words mean little unless you have the visuals.
It seems you have quite a number up against you Neer. What are you going to do?
Are you going to keep to your guns? Or actually question what WE ARE SAYING? and cross examine.
You nd your admins have been under scrutiny for a long time.
People aree migrating to weasyl. How do you feel about that? Do you care? If not, then why host a site anymore?
All I'm hearing is weasyl weasyl weasyl. It will be on your hands if you do not take control of the situation and stick to ALL evidence before judgement.
If you say otherwise, then why are we saying different things that you may not see?
What are you going to do...Neer?
Ignores anything that has to do with the fact this person was HARRASSED, their evidence of such DELETED, and the fact that this doesn't exactly qualify as a 'call out' journal. More like a warning.
Yep...sock puppet.
Newsflash...Dragoneer can mess up. :T
A warning journal is civilized warning others whats going on and advising them not to harass the person in question. It's pretty much like doing a A_B report.
Also, I don't think it's like an A_B report -- that group is moderated, right? Moderators review the submissions before they're made public, right? Not really the case here.
Call out journals are essentially just that, when someone calls out someone else, usually for something silly or a fight between the two, something that other users really dont' need to be warned about. They usually have no evidence, no screencaps, and it's really just useless barking and arguements usually with the journal poster instructing people to harrass the other party.
I guess what I'm saying is that there's a judgement call involved, and we might feel the admin made the wrong call, but without the journal to see (or a screencap of it), we've got nothing to base that assessment on. It seems to me that the journal-deletion is trivial to the root of the case here, that being the initial flaccid reaction against the accused, and only later reassessing the situation because of the uproar.
Also, as mentioned to Nega (but you may not see, since you won't be notified of my response to her, obviously): comparing a warning journal to A_B is not a good analogy, because A_B is moderated (I think), and warning journals (or call-out journals for that matter) are not.
On the plus side, some people saw her call-out/warning journal while it was up, and that probably fed the landslide that ultimately lead to 'neer taking a closer look at things. However much 'neer and other admins screwed up initially, if the end result is a reassessment of the situation and some kind of legit action taken against the stalker, then it's all the better.
And yes A_B is moderated, but that doesn't mean that users outside of it can't take them as a example and use that as a basis on what qualifies as a call out journal and what is a warning journal. So i still think it's a good analogy, this place is moderated as well, and could easily be handled in the same way that A_B moderates their journals, they tend to be able to tell a call out journal from one that's an actual artist beware pretty well. So i'm not sure why it couldn't also be applied here.
A call out journal, again, has little to no evidence, cannot be easily traced to figure out if it's acutally viable or if it's just he said she said, and usually aren't for the basis of warning users about something that can and will potentially harm them.
To be fair, you brought it up first:
this doesn't exactly qualify as a 'call out' journal. More like a warning.
this place is moderated as well
It is? Huh. Interesting. Ok, well, I just posted a journal about Copyright. Who moderated that post? What's the approval process?
I will grant you that the filtered submissions to A_B, and the structure they use, and guidelines for evidence and so forth, are great examples of "the right way to do things". I like that forum. I wish more people would use it (and/or post to it). However, A_B's purpose, A_B's terms and LiveJournal's terms are different than FA's terms of service. So even if you cut&pasted some perfectly crafted post directly out of A_B and stuck it in your journal here, you might still be in violation of some TOS here. FA is a different venue, different rules. For instance, maybe that A_B post included some private notes that were exchanged on FA -- perfectly fine to post on A_B, perfectly not fine to post on FA. But, if an FA admin never sees it, they can't react to the post, and so it will remain, undisturbed, 'til enough attention is drawn to it.
And I'm not sitting here telling you that FA has the same set of rules as AB, i'm well aware the TOS would be violated even if you follow the exact way ab did. That's not the point I was trying to make. The point is, there is a great example of how things can be handled and a great way of stopping this kind of thing from happening in the future and maybe the TOS should be changed to reflect that instead of labeling all journals 'call our journals'
I can't debate whether the ORIGINAL JOURNAL deleted by the FA admins was a call out one or not, as I didn't see it. That's what I meant to not be debating on whether or not the journal was a call out one or not, but if it indeed held evidence and was a place where someone who could see it and be informed then I don't think it should be labled as such.
I am perfectly aware A_B and FA are two different places, that's not what I was saying. I was merely saying FA should look there and take their ques from there in regards to properly determining what is and is not a call out journal simply because 1. it allows less chances for exactly this to happen, where someone feels like their warning or call for help was ignored and 2. it allows other people to be well informed while not falling under the terms of he said she said.
The only posts they're responsible for reviewing and potentially taking down are those they happen to stumble across, or those we report to them. They don't review every single post (unlike A_B). I'm confident that there are posts or submissions that are up right now and are in clear TOS violation, and they persist because because they either haven't been reported, and/or the FA admin has not seen it yet. Oh, and there are probably some cases where the FA admin reviewed it and didn't see a violation, or had a different perspective than the reporting user did. They're human, after all, so they're going to sometimes have different perspectives, ideas, goals, or just aren't paying attention. But you'd get that at any site, really, that didn't have a quorum-based or user-based moderation system.
Are there better ways to do things? Absolutely. I'm all in favor of improvements. But I bet if they came up with a rule that said, "All call-out type things go to this forum over here, and we'll review it like A_B does and make sure it's all valid and post it if it's legit, so EVERYONE on FA can see it, not just people who are following you", people would still post call-outs or whatever in their journals. Then they'd get taken down for not being posted in the right spot, people would cry foul, and we'd be right back here debating the right way to do handle community warnings about creepy stalkers.
I would really like to see a better way to broadcast a message to the community. But there's a HECK of a lot of drama in this fandom. I have no idea how they would distinguish the "valid" from "invalid" requests for broadcasts.
If a journal then falls under the terms of call out, the user should be given a warning and a chance to remove said journal, as sometimes, it could contain screencaps and other evidence that would be hard for a normal user to recover if an admin removes the journals. If the journal does indeed follow these new set of guidelines, it should be left alone as a way to inform users who don't use the A_B forum.
On the basis of user reporting journals, I agree with that, but in an instance where i made two journals, pretty much in close succession of each other, but one was taken down instead of the other, I can't really call that a good judgement call. And the inconsistency is what I have a problem with out of this whole thing to begin with. I can understand it's hard to track down journals without someone having first reported said journal, but with the inconsistencies of the site's admins where one will be okay with one thing, and another won't , I can't fully be comfortable with saying that's the ONLY reason it was overlooked.
I dont see why it would be so hard to dictate what is valid from invalid. A_B has a pretty good way of weeding out what's a viable warning and what's a silly tiff. Which brings me back to my original point that the FA admins may want to take a que from them in switching up how they handle things here.
It just gets pointless when a bunch of people randomly jump in and drop "u ffuked up on this" criticism and follow up with "GO AHEAD AND BAN ME CUZ YOU'RE SUCH A POOPHEAD".
Dragoneer makes mistakes running his website, but I kind of doubt he'd ban this guy for his one sentence of nonconstructive criticism. But that does go against the anti-Neer/FA circlejerk so I can see how this would upset a few of you.
You can have a different opinion without wanting to jump on some bandwagon. Come on now.
I am well aware the guy's human, but you can't keep throwing that out there everytime someone does their job wrong. We all know the dude's human. Some of us forget that, i will admit, as is easy to do when you're over the internet and not speaking face to face. But that doesn't mean he can't get called out when he slips up. In fact, that should HELP him to learn to run the site better. Listening to feedback. And not the straight up "fuck you admins" feedback.
We can debate on whether or not the admins fucked up, or people can get all sassy and insultive to admins and then challenge them to ban them, like they're children or something.
"You're a stupid head. Now hit me, I dare you!"
I think the admins are inconsistant and handled this in a poor way, sure, but do I wish ill on them? Nope. Will I prod at them going "hey ban me ban me?" Nope.
And the people that say that, had they gotten banned, they'd have whined and bitched about it forever.
Ignores anything that has to do with the fact this person was HARRASSED, their evidence of such DELETED, and the fact that this doesn't exactly qualify as a 'call out' journal. More like a warning.
Yep...sock puppet.
Newsflash...Dragoneer can mess up. :T "
You replied this to a guy that replied to me about the comment I made on stupid strawman building passive aggressive criticisms that don't do anything for the discussion; agreeing that I was some how a "sock puppet". That is why I replied to you.
If not, then nevermind!
Let's recap.
Problem: "I have filed a trouble ticket against the user harassing me - what do the FA mods do? Delete my journal entry and all the information contained therein for calling out a person who is by his own admission mentally ill and threatening to stalk, rape, and steal from me. I have lost all the information in that post, all the names and links posted.
And no one has even replied to my trouble ticket against him. It's been up there for a WEEK."
Reaction:
"The admin took the right course of action in this case. I don't feel it's something to leave FA over, as if it happened on FA, it will happen on /any/ site. It's unfortunate, but a choice they have made. I'll respect that."
I have been following the issue for a while now and saw what both parties wrote in the deleted journal, mind you. Sorry: If in a quarrel of a stalker vs. victim you take the side of the stalker, what does it say about you?
And you can go ahead and ban me for speaking out my mind; I don't care. Will just grab a screenshot of the exchange for my own amusement.
I would help but this is not my business at the moment so I am just giving you both advise and hope for the best.
Wait, what? I'm not familiar with this law. Since when is it a service provider's duty to punish criminals, even if they had the evidence? I mean, if they have evidence, they certainly need to provide it to law enforcement if it goes that far, but to take matters into their own hands sounds like a really bad idea.
I see a lot of people hating on FA admins. That's nothing new. But to accuse them of a felony because they didn't ban-hammer the bastard? O.o That seems extreme.
I'm still wondering what law it is that connects FA's purported incompetence with "accessory to a felony".
While I don't support stalkers or bad behavior since I have been a victim of this as well. The best thing to do is have all your evidence in hand before running and fleeing a site. This is the internet stalking goes on in all areas on all websites. The staff on sites do their best to try and prevent it and most staff will work with local authorities etc to try and make the site safe for all users. But until the staff has evidence and things to support or neglect something they really can't just handle something on word of mouth alone.
I don't support stalkers and bad behavior. But I do like to see evidence of what is happening so I can make a balanced decision on the subject. I don't see any screenshots of all this stolen art or harassing stories. I see a blank gallery on the supposed stalkers site. Does anyone have screenshots of this stolen art or story that is being talked about in this article?
Again please I'd love to see more facts and things on this. Because honestly right now all I see is finger pointing and a note answering another note that we aren't able to read.
I'm not defending anyone at this point but I also don't see the point of abandoning a site i've been a member of for awhile. Over something that really has a lot of holes in it as far as information goes.
You want the evidence? Ask the FA admins where they hid it.
Can you ask him to send a copy of it back to your friend?
This is all getting really hard to follow, but if Dragoneer can still see it, I don't see why he can't send a copy-paste of it to your friend so they can have the evidence back.
He's probably just trying to calm the masses with words.
It's funny how he only responds to selective comments, and not the ones that addressing the actual serious comments on the issue, about how it's being handled. It's because he knows he's in the wrong.
Wait, they punished her and not him? Did they ban her or something? What sort of punishment are we talking about?
The stalker guy should've been banned cuz of the horrible level of harassment/threats made and the stolen art he apparently had in his gallery which seems to have been removed which is good, but still.
Another thing I don't get is maybe this is all a misunderstanding, like the admins saw her journal as trashing or "calling out" another member.. but why haven't they fixed the problem and banned the guy? >.< Oooh I don't get what's going on with this situation. All I know is what's stated in this journal and Taran's latest one, too. :c It's just sad.
It's not FA's responsibility to sift through every post looking for violations. It's our responsibility to report the ones that offend us. How many of those "many journals" that you saw did you report, and yet they were never deleted?
The stalker guy should've been banned cuz of the horrible level of harassment/threats made and the stolen art he apparently had in his gallery which seems to have been removed which is good, but still.
The stolen art thing is just icing on the cake. If the guy actually is guilty, and has done even only half the things Q told us about, he should be dealt with. Currently (and this is probably news?), his account is suspended. Is that the same thing as banned? I honestly don't know. O.o But I think it qualifies as punishment, yeah?
All I know is what's stated in this journal and Taran's latest one, too. :c It's just sad.
I definitely agree. She seems like a wonderful person, and it genuinely pains me to hear what she has gone through and the association she now makes not only to this place, but furries in general. And others as well. She made mention of other female owners of Clockwork Creature costumes who might be already getting such creepy attention from others. Really, what the heck is wrong wiith people. :< I'm actually getting a suit made by Qarrezel right now, and while I'm still really looking forward to it, I'm already mentally preparing for scenarios where there's some creepiness going on. Someone in her stream the other day said to me, "Soon, you'll be part of Q's family." I get a sense that owners of her costumes tend to flock together, and form a little community. In light of this scenario, I am definitely going to be taking a more protective role as I enter that community, keeping an eye out for such behavior and intervening when necessary. I see it now becoming more than just a costume in my eyes ... it's becoming ... well .. Rooth, in a sense. The guardian side of him, anyway.
I'm not sure if suspension and banning are the same, but I just hope he can't do anymore damage :c This whole situation is pretty scary! Imma be all paranoid now who I give my address out to for commission stuff but I suppose that's a good thing, to be extra cautious. Aww I just feel so bad for Taran :c
That in itself is a good reason to remove him from the site. You do not need anything more than that, it is your site to do with as you wish.
I dont have weasyl and dont really want to re-join yet another art site(I'm one 3 diffrent ones now) I might just go back over to my DA after all this.
Kinda suck to hear about this :( Going to miss you.
And I HATE Dragoneer for silenceing someone and letting some creepy ass fuck twat stay on the site to possibly harrase others further >_< Makes me so mad! like beyond angry!
I'm going to re-post this aswell if thats ok too.
Good luck *hugs* Take care and such too ok.
Wish the best of luck to Taran
I faintly recall a situation with ChewFox...and she got banned for going on the Tyra-banks show and "bringing shame to the Fandom" was the excuse...
Just because it could also happen somewhere else doesn't mean one should turn a blind eye to it happening here. This would be like a cop ignoring an assault case because they could beat someone up in any other place. While going public at the same time as filing the harassment ticket is questionable, the admins have a long history of ignoring tickets that aren't made public and, even with the pressure of being in the public eye, they clearly made a horrible decision once again.
What this stalker is doing is harassment and is illegal. They need to get in touch with local law enforcement ASAP... Have them document EVERYTHING.
This fandom has brought me so many wonderful friends but like any subculture it has its share of sleezeballs and sleezeball enablers...
Lol.
Excuse me for my sayings.
Good onya!
A small hint from a viewpoint of an old *nix sysadmin: Responsibility good. Power-tripping bad. Someone who really, really wants to be a mod is probably not a good choice. Press-ganged mods are best
All I'm saying is, don't over-learn the lesson here. It must be tempered.
My brain can't comprehend what your friend is going through Q and I hope that things are resolved for her quickly! There is enough evidence just from skimming her last journal to place him there in contact with her and I hope the FA staff does the RIGHT THING and take more issues such as these more seriously in the future!
A quick suggestion to the FA staff. QUIT deleting journals that call out users who might be infringing on the safety and well being of other users without actually reading into it first! The guideline for call out journals is just insane and far from being perfect. A lot of times it's not meant to start drama more so as a, "Hey this user is dangerous, fraudulent, harmful ect" Please I beg you, to redo this policy and rework it so things like this DON'T happen again!
Banning all journals that speak ill of other users is extremely excessive, some level of accountability is needed, especially where a small but significant portion of your userbase is mentally unstable or potentially dangerous.
Where do you draw the line?
I'm not saying let everyone go hog wild with rumours and heresay. But reporting on a potentially dangerous stalker who has a long history of documented extreme behaviour on other sites and in real life comes well within the boundaries of appropriate information to post.
And I'm not saying that harassment, physical threats, and abusive behavior should be tolerated. But the trick is finding a litmus that will come up red for each of the 12-or-so admins who might review a given journal. "Common sense" is really hard to define in terms everyone will interpret the same. So, the TOS is pretty inflexible on the topic, I presume, and the admin probably did what the TOS empowered him to do. And .. reading comments above ... sounds like the deleted journal was recovered and reviewed for evidence, and whatever bearing it had on things, the stalker's account is now "suspended." Sounds to me like a bad call that is now reversed.
It's quite possible if she crafted her journal with the TOS in mind, such that it wouldn't be in violation but would still get the point across, it would have stayed up. But from everything I've heard, I seriously doubt she was in the right state of mind to have such foresight. :(
Some of the FA rules might be stupid, and maybe the admins aren't administering them liberally enough against this stalker guy, but some rules are pretty clear-cut and allow for quick action, like nuking a call-out journal or hiding comments which violate the rules. Which will probably happen to this one before too long, so like Q is suggesting, screencap often. Hurray Firefox addon "Screengrab"! :)
The sentiment presented in most of this journal suggests that dA should ban the guy's account even if it didn't happen on dA. And I guess that goes for Weasyl, too, and really any other place that's even remotely associated. I think that's extreme, though. dA would have nothing to go on to make that call. Now, it sure looks like enough went on here, on this site, in notes and journals and submissions and stories, that there'd be some evidence to go on to justify banning the guy. And maybe the admins haven't gotten there yet, but I sure hope they don't just ignore it. Look for evidence that the victim has provided them with, and take action. That's what needs to be done.
Some people in this journal would have dA pre-ban the guy, prevent him from making an account in the first place, as their "responsibility" or "duty". But I think that puts unfair burden on service providers. Also makes it horribly easy for someone to defame another person, e.g. me -- just create an account 'rooth' somewhere, do some unspeakably bad stuff, and suddenly I'm banned everywhere and even Comcast cuts me off. I'm not saying this guy is really two people or anything, but I'm saying that if the ban is the default until details get worked out, that's an equally bad problem in the other direction, and people will get pissed for being banned "at the drop of a hat".
I first became aware of this situation yesterday when I read a ticket filed by a third party, neither tarangryph or Qarrezel. Because it was a third party ticket and didn't include any evidence, I couldn't take any action on this ticket. Let me clarify that at this point, if there were any images of tarangryph or posts about personal information, they were deleted at this point as I looked over fredericksam's profile.
I noticed that tarangryph had made a journal naming fredericksam as stalking her by name. I took the normal action of deleting this journal, and advising tarangryph to block the user (she still had not blocked him at this point) and file a trouble ticket. Tarangryph told me in notes that she had already filed a trouble ticket, which I hadn't seen yet because it was filed after the original third party ticket. I responded to that ticket, asking for links to any harassment that the user may have done on FA. I received a response to that ticket yesterday, but was waiting to discuss it with Dragoneer because of the serious nature of the positional offense.
The incorrect assumption here is that fredericksam wasn't going to be suspended. If we could have found reason to suspend them while reviewing evidence presented by tarangryph, they could have very well been suspended. Instead, it seems that tarangryph and qarrezel have assumed that we deleted the journal and never intended to consider suspending fredericksam, or even that we deleted the journal only because she is female. That is not true at all - we were definitely planning on looking into the issue further. It is unfortunate that the users affected seem to have assumed that we weren't going to take any action only a day after I first responded to the issue because it very well could have been resolved without any drama.
In any case, it must have occurred to you that removing the victims journal while leaving the perpetrators account fully operational would look absolutely terrible, because it LOOKS to the victim like you don't give a shit about her safety and are supporting the actions of someone who is genuinely threatening her. What you planned is irrelevant unless you told her because she is not psychic. Where stalking and threats are involved, it's vital to work with the victim to resolve the situation, not do everything in secret and just assume she knows you are doing the right thing
Did this person put the evidence of such in the journal with links so that when you clicked on them they took you to the 'this submission isn't found page'? Shouts are another story as i'm not sure how deleting those works and if you guys have access to them afterwards, but that's easily fixed by further investigation
The fact that I can't see submissions or comments that a user removed is totally out of my control, and I'm not sure what other 'research' I could do without knowing where the harassment took place. That's why I asked the user in the trouble ticket for that information. Admins can no longer see user's notes without being sent a link directly to them, and so I had to personally ask tarangryph if they had received any harassing notes, which I did in the trouble ticket.
If you did indeed ask for the information, then good onya on your part. But again, if it was in said journal, I'm not sure why you still removed it as there's the evidence right there.
But good onya on your part if you indeed to the steps to contact the user. i'm not sure why it seems like you just removed and did nothing about the trouble ticket sitting there for weeks, and did nothing to the user that the claim was filed against though. As if things went the way you said everyone should've been satisfied and the user should've said that it happened and not that the ticket wasn't addressed.
But I'm still on the fence, as nothing has been done to the harrasser, and apparently the journal had evidence, and apparently the trouble tickets went unheeded. I can understand FA handling what happens on FA, but when it comes from another site and you just shrug because the brunt of it isn't here, yeah....you are within your right to do so, but again, how does that make the site look? Like they're a place to run to when you're being a dick on another site, Like it's a clean slate to act like a douche because they can't see what you did over in the other place.
Wait, seriously?
Okay. So here is the problem.
1) It takes you guys more than a week to get to tickets and you have no way of fast-tracking critical things like stalking.
2) You don't accept screenshots as proof because of photochops.
3) You have no goddamn internal mod-only way to view removed user content.
You need to fix one or more of these problems, especially the third one, if you want to avoid this clusterfuck in the future. There is really no excuse for having a mechanism which assigns different priorities to classes of tickets (IM an admin? srsly?), and no reason to not at least have whatever your ticket turnaround time plus a week of rolling backups in case they need to be used as evidence - either for moderation's sake or legal reasons.
I'm not blaming you personally for this crap because it's not your fault you guys are saddled with 400+ tickets, but this is just bad design.
I mean I could just spam random pictures I found in the bowels of /b/ as long as I deleted them before you got around to the ticket, by this logic. You wouldn't have any evidence of it. That's a pretty big flaw.
Every trouble ticket is OMG, SUPER DOOPER IMPORTANT GOTTA DO IT NOW.
Every victim has countless piles of "evidence" that in no way shape or form could be just circumstantial slander.
And, of course every little piece of slanderous trash should be left, for public consumption, because this case proves that we're not all a bunch of rumor mongers, and the court of public opinion never gets it wrong, and never demonizes a person for actions they themselves did not witness.
Right?
I think that any system that doesn't distinguish between "omg somebody stole my character waaah SEVERITY: HIGH" and "hey, this guy is being creepy and threatening me" is a bad system. This is why other companies have different queues for different types of tickets, because some things have a potential to be more harmful to actual people than others do and are more time-sensitive. Expecting somebody to hunt down an admin personally instead of fixing this technical problem is kind of BS, because then not only do you have people annoying admins, but AFAIK there isn't a list of admins with their online status available.
I think that any system which doesn't have a way for admins to view deleted content, so evidence such as comments and submissions can be deleted forever, is a bad system. What if this were a legal issue, such as somebody posting RL evidence of a felony and then deleting it? Most other sites I've dealt with do "soft deletions" - it's removed from public visibility but is still available in backups in case it is ever needed (such as evidence in a court case).
I get that you think that this particular instance is drama and is overblown, and personally, I think that everybody could have handled themselves better in this situation, including the victim. However, don't you think that just maybe the system should be set up to be able to correctly handle future harassment and stalking cases regardless?
Very well said
[qoute]The incorrect assumption here is that fredericksam wasn't going to be suspended. If we could have found reason to suspend them while reviewing evidence presented by tarangryph, they could have very well been suspended. Instead, it seems that tarangryph and qarrezel have assumed that we deleted the journal and never intended to consider suspending fredericksam, or even that we deleted the journal only because she is female. That is not true at all - we were definitely planning on looking into the issue further. It is unfortunate that the users affected seem to have assumed that we weren't going to take any action only a day after I first responded to the issue because it very well could have been resolved without any drama. [/quote]
It's not lost evidence.
It's not "oh no, we can't find it," it's "no, this is not enough to warrant" - which, after they HAD ENOUGH TIME TO PROPERLY REVIEW EVERYTHING, YA KNOW, SHIT TAKES TIME?, they decided to suspend him for his actions.
Was he pretending to be innocent? If so then they may have viewed it as him just trying to defend himself when it looked like he was being harassed. Acting as though he was the victim. Happens in real life.
Yeah...unfortunately I can see what you are getting at but in the same position I probably would have done the same. I think she should seriously get an injunction which is completely doable considering this person is threatening bodily harm.
But yes... there are definitely a lot worse scenarios going around. I'm really shocked and appalled at reading the FA scandals that have been going on the past few years. I knew the mods were corrupt... but this is a whole new extent I'm learning about.
I agree that the situation could have happened anywhere on the internet, because lets face it that much is true. I do, however, believe that not taking a zero tolerance approach to such a matter, is ridiculous. Imagine if you were being bullied at school as a kid, told the teachers about it, and they just shrugged and said. "Well, bullying can happen at any school." Would that justify them not taking action? Heck no. Any professional business or web owner should not tolerate harassment. Period.
Sure, its more of a PD thing, but i still don't see why the harasser wasn't banned, warned, or something. Not just shrugged off. Its still happening on FA and a person like that should have consequences. FA takes care of FA. I dont see why this was shrugged off.
Chloe's statement rings true. So what if it can happen anywhere? Doesn't make it right not to do something about the content and site that you are running.
To be honest, this feels like a Phoenix Wright case--the only way to save the day is scrounging for evidence. @_@;
When I had a similar issue, I was told because some bits of it had happened offsite (over Facebook) there was nothing they could do, even though said person came over to FA and was bombing my shoutbox and notes. It took not less than 3 trouble tickets with my wording becoming increasingly aggressive for admins to take action and eventually ban their accounts, but this was not after this person had found my cellular phone number and made their family call me, threatening me.
I'm just... in a whirlwind. To wake up to see such an inspiring artist and spectacular fursuiter having this kind of trouble is really disheartening. I hope things will improve for the both of you, and I will see you on the other side.
Harassment needs to be taken more seriously around here.
bottom line though: it sounds to me like it is already way beyond FA. this is not neer's job to handle anymore. this individual has a ridiculously unhealthy obsession and will not let being banned from any single website slow him down.
Contact law enforcement. he has done nothing to physically harm taram yet, but it's very clear that he is going in that direction. take the ounce of prevention, please.
___
personally, i don't like weasyl so far. i've been on it since invite beta, and it seems to me like it's 'that elitest furry art site' which is a real turnoff for me personally. that said, i do not fanboy to any single site either, i use both FA and IB myself. the fact is i need to pick only two. any more feels like spreading myself too thin.
again, i suggest taran files reports on the sites it occurred on as well as take screenshots of the harassment on those sites and bring it to law enforcement. what's going on here is not the fault of any single website. please, focus your efforts on your friend's safety first.
Every so often I toy with the idea of coming back here, but then something like this happens and I'm forcefully reminded why that would be a very, very bad idea.
Although, I'm still far from convinced Weasyl is a viable alternative. It's rules and content ratings seem based less on caution and more on flat-out cowardice, the latter especially - the middle ground rating. 'moderate', barely even counts as such. Then again, what other alternatives are there?
Dragoneer: You and Sciggles didn't feed on my flesh and then ban me when I met you that one time on the elevator like the internet said you would. *thumbs up*
Internet:
Guise. This is a complex issue. A bad idea is to knee-jerk to one side so hard it causes an atomic blast that would give North Korea a cross country boner. A worse idea is calling everyone on the other side a dipshit, even you're pretty sure they're dipshits. Neer needs a PR guy, but he's trying to be a diplomat. Qaarrezel and Tarangryph have legitimate reasons to be afraid and upset.
Did anyone even consider that given some time, all three people could reach an understanding? Apologies are free. So is acting like a bro/broess, ESPECIALLY to people you are in an incident with. There is so much abandoned perspective in here that this might as well be an abortion argument.
I like ass.
<3
You have made my day.
A billion people say it was wrong.
a couple of admins say it was right.
....:/
... which I'm about to do, tomorrow :)
..
*crickets chirp*..
Tough crowd.
the victim should really take this issue up in the legal system, i would be content if that admin were banned, or even if FA was shut down over protecting a criminal, cuz god knows this site is not what it used to be, and is just full of creepy ass Furry shit now
Victim blaming is unbecoming, seriously.
"Well if she didn't wear that outfit, we wouldn't have gotten turned on a raped her repeatedly."
Yeah...
But yeah, otherwise I agree. She has a right to exist and not be harassed REGARDLESS OF WHAT SHE DOES. Shame on Dragoneer. :/
Good on you for leaving. I would if I had somewhere else to go.
That view is wrong in my opinion... you don't blame a victim for being a victim of a crime where the criminal should have expressed self control. What was wrong is saying it was wrong solely on the basis that third world countries believe in it.
http://forums.furaffinity.net/threa.....g-and-slowness
And another thing: someone asked nearly two weeks ago why their GF hadn't got a reply to an e-mail about approval for an ad and again, no member of staff could be bothered to reply:
http://forums.furaffinity.net/threa.....n-alloted-time
The advert problem has been going on for years. My understanding is that Dragoneer handles all the advertising by himself, refusing to allow anyone else to assist. I belive on a similar not, the reason why FA lacks folders and other basic features that VCL had 10+ years ago is because he and yak refuse allow anyone else to help with the coding.
http://forums.furaffinity.net/threa.....n-alloted-time
The advert problem has been going on for years. My understanding is that Dragoneer handles all the advertising by himself, refusing to allow anyone else to assist."
Lol! Screw PayPal, Dragoneer's trying to kill the site's revenue all by himself! XD (Yes, I realize that ads from random furries and what not aren't going to fix the problem, but I'm sure it would help. It's also a pretty obvious symptom and example of a far larger problem...)
The damage is already done, but I do hope justice is served to this stalker punk.
So disappointed in the admin after that... Figured art plagiarism would be taken seriously here.
This is a bit more serious than that though, and I hope some sort of action is taken... If not via FA, your friend should go to the authorities in real life. I'm sure they'd do something about it.
:,<
Pretty kitty.
May I have a note to where the rip off is? I'm just curious.
This is far more serious and I agree, it should have been taken care of more respectively. Definitely if anything is going on with the site, contact admins and NO evidence should be deleted if you consider it evidence. Better safe than sorry!
I too have a Weasyl account just in case crap like this goes down. Be seeing you there.
You can alienate yourself and ignore some bad things about someone or something, but enough is enough, and it seems that you definitely reached the "I'm fed up with this sh*t" state.
Now to Dragoneer, AKA the site owner : a complete restructuring of the website is mandatory now, because this can NOT go unpunished. A stalker is a serious issue, a very very serious issue. Did Dragoneer forgot about Amanda Todd maybe ? Even if in our case it's not that serious, the suicide of a stalked and/or harassed person is always a possibility.
Now I honestly prefer to see the website handled between several people with maybe a few downsides and a few improvements, than the website never changing in shape and crap like that happening.
I'm gonna be an ass there, but maybe when Dragoneer will face the mass leaving from FA of users, and maybe - and I definitely DO NOT wish that - the death of someone he neglected the harassment case as serious, maybe he'll change his stance, but it will be too late as Dragoneer will have blood on his hands, and that's the kind of thing that never washes away.
I am sternly and seriously looking forward a change on that stance.
As for Quarrezel, I hope you'll find more peace on a new website.
I am personally disturbed by the way this was handled. While I am a supporter of "There's two sides to every story", I can't say that I believe this is a matter of perspective. Maybe if something like this hadn't already happened BEFORE, I'd be willing to speculate the admin's side of the issue, but it's already been established in the past that the Admins on this site are not capable of handling situations like this, and similar, correctly.
The fact of the matter is, the admins are only diligent to the rules when it's convenient for them. Where was this "by the book attitude" when they were bombing Galleries for Taxidermy before there was even any clarification about it? Hate to toot that horn again, but it's a perfect example that they'll bend the rules when they want to, and follow them closely when they need to in order to save face.
Can't say I've never been disappointed like this before, but this is by far the worst. If nothing else was pushing me to the door to find an alternative art site, this is now. Can't say I'd ever 100% leave, because of the traffic this site still amazingly gets, though.
I'm really sorry this happened.
Very good questions and statements! I am intrigued!
So more or less, a statement like "History can, will and does repeat itself" Is it a safe addition to this?
To quote a fellow furry using this site.
"apparently it was a noob admin and he didn't do a comment-search which will now be manditory according to Dragoneer."
-Had more written but I will leave it at this.
I mean, I know I'm sounding like this whole FA Admin thing is like a real job or something, but hey. It's a big site and we need Admins that people can count on.
But this makes me wonder. I loved and adored our higher admins for a long time, but why is it something this important is brushed away like its nothing? Furaffinity is nothing without it's admin, but where is the regularity it used to have? now next to sites like inkbunny and weasyl it isnt as saafe or "innocent"
*i think i may move to a weasyl account soon as well myself, but i wish you and your friend the utmost safety, and bless your heart for helping her in this time of importance.
People just need to learn to love.
I kinda like it.
So, lets just say for laughs and nothing personal I stalk Dragoneer, and start posting HIS personal info and putting his REAL name and address in stories and such. And this goes on for a while.
Do the other admins sit back and watch this happen? Probably not. I know he would ban me instantly.
Sad thing is this happened, and now said person has left. What does that say about you FA? It says that you are no longer a trust worthy site and many more people are going to start leaving. The money that supports you will stop. Your site will crash down into nothing. Why? Because you REFUSED to grow a pair and step up and do the right thing. It is your job as Admin to do something about this.
You can sit there and say, One trouble ticket doesn't make a difference, but when that person keeps harassing someone, you need to look into it on the first ticket. Not delete the evidence. Keep an eye on these things and maybe people would enjoy the site much more. Instead of sitting there on your lazy ass drinking your coffee and eating your rainbow donuts in "happy world"
I got news for you, if this was you, you would have sought action too. So don't just sit there anymore, start DOING SOMETHING!
I'm either an admin or a mod on at least 7 different forums so I kinda know my thing.
Granted, some of the harassment happened off-site and the user should have only reported things that were happening on FA but the fact of the matter is a trouble ticket is a silent complaint to an admin whereas a journal will be able to reach more users at once.
If anything I think there should be something like an artist_beware livejournal or similar where users can post facts, information and such about harassing users from multiple sites in a sort of conglomerating pool. And I do mean strictly adhering to artist beware's model, where it's moderated so that someone can't just post whatever they like whenever they like. They'd need to have saved notes, journals, what-have-you before it would be considered for a post.
Something to consider in the long run and something that would make a good few users take a collective sigh of relief if it were implemented appropriately.
I will happily follow and watch you there. The staff is incredible and kind, and always eager to help and get on their users level. Its quite homey. And now that it is in open beta, it will get much more open as well.
See you there!
P.S. - I also wish the best for your friend. May she find comfort and peace again......and may lightning strike down from the skies on this sickening fellow.
it's times like these i'm glad i prefer being a gamer first and a furry second. because this isn't how an admin would handle things. in the (rather wise for what the person is a part of) words of one of Team GRN's griefers, "it's called being an admin: responsibility" and yet clearly this isn't responsibility. this is censorshit.
But I do agree Weasyl will be ending FA as we know it. I have talked to some of the admins and they are alot more intelligent and will take care of things right away.
I am super sorry to hear about all of this happening, stuff like this makes me have no faith in the future.
No where in this journal says that the person was blocked, first and fore mostly.
I can see the huge flop on the admins part by not taking action, but you could have IMMEDIATELY stopped said harassment by BLOCKING the person. I feel that if that happened, and the person continued to make accounts to EVADE said ban (and you obviously collected screenshots of said incident), then I feel that FA would have been more inclined to pursue the individual in terms of harassment?
From what it seems, to me, the person harassed you on one account, continued to do so on said account, etc. etc. What a person in said situation would have usually done is blocked the user.
If you ask me, the issue doesn't seem that severe if the person is making you uncomfortable enough for you to take action on your OWN and block them. I'm confused as to why that wasn't done in the first place? Then taken up with admin staff?
This most definitely merits a ban, if anything. But I do very much agree that Furaffinity, in no way, are police officers. The POLICE should have gotten very much involved with this, more so than the FA admins themselves.
Plus, can't this guy just like... lol follow y'all over to weasyl?
please, friend. i like to act independently, and i'm solely responsible for what i have to say. : P
Again, I understand the severity of the situation, I'm not sure why you're taking it as if I've completely downplayed it.
I was just a bit confused as to why the situation was handled in the way it was, with the blocking feature in tact, etc. etc.
I felt like staff could have taken action much, MUCH more appropriately with something to back up the claims.
Though, I'm not sure how said claims could be really appropriately backed up if they don't even allow screenshots for the reports. :U
If the individual is already posting material that isn't allowed on the site, Admins were probably going to take action on it regardless of whether it was reported as someone stalking etc. etc. whatever.
My question is, though, if the information was removed by the staff (and not by the individual itself), then why didn't that merit a ban all on its own? or, at the very least, a suspension? Like.. it doesn't even matter if these two came to them with no evidence whatsoever, if the STAFF were the one to remove the information, then why wasn't that enough for them to suspend?
You really shouldn't be so quick to play meanie, btw. lol I just personally like looking at situations at a ton of different anglesssssees.
However, I don't know you well enough to really allow this to make a permanent judgement about you. And I can most definitely see how you would have misconstrued that as me being uncaring, as much as I tried to stress that it was more or less my blatant curiosity. I've been exposed to pretty similar situations to closer friends, so it's really disrespectful of you to think that I wouldn't take such a situation seriously. it's however you want to take it, though, I guess!
I've been in a situation where I have been threatened, pulled outside my family, and the memory is as if it happened yesterday. I always awake until midnight at a foster home, thinking about my dad's words, "dont tell anyone, or I will kill you.."
No matter how much he couldn't back up his word, there was always a worry that he would jump out from the shadows and just finish it. No matter how short the time was spent in the foster home. No matter what therapy, there is STILL no peace for me when I look in dark spaces.
The same could be said for the victim here. That she will never get over the fear, and the fact that the admins basically did nothing is something not easily taken. If it were any other FA admin, I guarantee no matter where it happened, the user would be banned instantly if they had a FA account.
I may be mean, but it comes with experience, something I see you lack in more than one place.
however, your situation is not, or did not, happen in such a broad spectrum like the internet.
While I can heavily, heavily sympathize and apologize for what you went through,
I personally have been in a situation where I was wrongfully painted out to be an offender that I was /not/.
It is not uncommon that people are wrongfully accused over some sort of history that is a mystery to the publicity. Can you not see why someone in a professional standpoint would not want to act with caution?
Have you not seen those news articles? Specifically one of a man who was wrongfully arrested, put in jail for a decade after his daughter accused him of being raped. (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art.....raping-11.html)
So again, I hope you understand the stand point I was, personally, trying to convey. I, in no way, meant to be offensive to you in the slightest, so please don't take it as such.
Granted, the way the admin conducted themselves in this situation was very, VERY much inappropriate, I do agree. I believe enough red flags went off to have merited a ban. The fact that the girl's information remained up and public for a WEEK without the admins doing ANYTHING /literally/ puts her in very real danger if anyone wanted to be malicious towards her. And if Taran had screenshots of said incident, then they should very MUCH bend that 'screenshot rule' for situations like this because they are very serious.
With that being said, I may not have experience in your area, but I do have experiences in others. So please, don't put on this unnecessary attitude, and experience holds no reason to be aggressive. We could have talked it out cordially and without any accusations. If anything, that makes you look more like the youth in this situation.
Though, I do apologize, again. I understand now that the situation is something you take personally to heart, but in no way did I mean ill of it and in no way am I blind to the severity of it.
And unnecessary attitude? I only speak of my dealings with you, not of any others. Which in fact, IS more than one. And it honestly depends on the experience, though I don't find myself to be particularly aggressive, since I am not throwing out any foul words, which I do normally when I am aggressive. In all honesty, I'm not really accusing you of anything, yet I am mena? And aggressive? Accusing the supposed accuser?
Aren't you doing the same thing that you experienced?
And you accused me of having a poor personality, which is very, very much offensive. Then tried to say that I lacked experience, which is insulting.
With that being said, I'm done speaking with you because it's more than obvious that you're projecting your personal issues onto here, be it with me or not. That's something you take up with me privately if you have any 'other dealings'.
I didn't, again, accuse you of having a "poor" personality. I said that "Your downplay of this speaks volumes about your personality"
Whether its good or bad, it doesn't make up one's total personality. It just adds something negative to it, or at least in my case it does.
but usually my track of mind for a situation like this is... *block*, let the admins know if the issue is serious enough, let the admins know if they evaded the block. if they are banned, let the cops know if they are harassing you outside of the web.
I think what would have helped a great deal on their behalf is collecting screenshots of the entire ordeal?
I feel like if an admin saw someone posting nudies and such and such on their account, they're just gonna take it down because thats.. well.. against the rules all on its own. and who, at the time, could tell that these two issues were related to eachother?
did she provide screenshots of the individual posting said things? her address and her photography? i mean it all depends on the detail of the trouble ticket.
So far all I know is, this was reported and the admins refused to do jack squat, in a nutshell.
But I guess my point is, and please please nobody take this the wrong way (it's simply from experience) is that anyone can say these things HAPPENED.
Not trying to defend this dude in his actions in the slightest, but it's so, so wise to have these things all collected and ready to show for this sort of purpose. You're not going to go report something to the police and expect them to take your word for it?
From what I'm gathering, the only evidence they have is of said journal and the guy commenting on there.
and what?? They seriously don't accept screenshots? Then what evidence could they have POSSIBLY wanted? Do they expect one of their admins to be present at the scene of the crime at all times to witness this as evidence? That's freaking asinine. :U
I mean I understand there are people who are able to bend screenshots, but that goes just as easily as someone able to bend words. You have to accept SOMETHING and give them the benefit of the doubt? How else would the issue have been proven?
From what I've read, several of her friends were witnesses to the harassment, but as I didn't actually see it myself, I can't say that it happened without a shadow of a doubt. Though I see no reason for Tara or Qarrezel to lie about something like that. But you're right. If I didn't see it, I can't say it happened, I'm just taking their word for it.
And yea, I was quite shocked when I got told screenshots are not acceptable evidence, and that's exactly why, because people can shop them. But surely it can't be that hard to differentiate a fake screenie from a legitimate one? Or perhaps match up the screenie to site records of postings and comments? I dunno. I don't like that rule either.
I don't want to question their credibility, but this is just coming from someone who's personally seen people dragged through the mud just because they didn't feel so hot about them.
You know, usually there's a history that you don't quite /know/ about, etc. etc.
I just feel it's important to have some amount of credible resources to back your statement up, especially if you're reporting them to staff/police. They, as professionals, aren't going to be like "yea yea I believe you because you look like a nice person." they have to have both sides of the tale, or at least some amount of evidence. If they believed every story just based off of the words of people they thought were nice, then I'm pretty sure everyone could weasel their way out of a bad situation just by acting nice. know what i mean? even if they know for a fact that the person is probably telling the truth, it's just good to have SOMETHING to go off of. because then the opposite party could make a pretty bad case on the FA staff for punishing them without any credible evidence whatsoever.
yea you can definitely differentiate them. idk. i feel like accepting screenies would be a much better form of evidence. cause often or not it's gonna take a pretty nasty person to really edit those. idk. theres a number of ways i felt i woulda handled this. x__x
And about the screenshots? Honestly there really is no other way to show evidence. I guess around here, if the harassment is deleted, you're screwed.
which is totally, well, fucked up and confusing if anything.
He has found and posted photographs of her online, posted her personal information in public, and written a sex story wherein the main character breaks into Taran's house, steals her fursuit, and does awful sexual things. In this story, he uses her real name and location.
a) Lessens the amount of evidence you end up with
b) Doesn't make you any safer and probably just enrages them
Dealing with internet-only harassment and dealing with something which is bleeding over into real life are very different situations and should not be treated similarly.
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/...../#cid:31841971
if this is true, then what should be done on FA is COMPLETELY VOID if all of those 'picture/address postings' were done on DA. that is DA'S responsibility, not Dragoneer's.
so tbh there wasn't really much credible evidence to begin with if it was on DA and not FA? because the staff aren't supposed to be dealing with things OUTSIDE the site.
and if that's the case, where multisites are getting involved, then the COPS need to get involved.
And it was on FA as well, much of it was just deleted before most people got to see any of it, and now I'm finding out that FA has no system in place to preserve user-deleted content for review (which is a security risk itself for exactly this reason).
Dragoneer doesn't have a responsibility to police people for everything they do everywhere on the internet, no. The admins here do however have a responsibility to take safety issues seriously, and to not destroy evidence. Deleting the victim's journal and their subsequent censorship and flippant treatment of the situation was contrary to these goals.
Dragoneer shouldn't continue to stand by how the situation was handled either. It wouldn't be half as bad if they all just admitted that the way the victim was treated was terrible and that she deserved to be heard out before being punished. Instead they continue to treat their loose definition of "calling out" as more important to police than actual issues of user safety.
The admins just watch and laugh.
I'm re posting this journal as well, and I shall be doing whatever I can to get people to follow me on weasyl.
Please PM me about that.
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/...../#cid:31837252
Well the baby's sick, and we're going to make them realize it, even if it means having to stick their nose in the poopy diaper.
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/...../#cid:31828693
"Verified that this was a sock puppet account. The Fredriksam account was abandoned then the Garageman account was created moments after with this lovely "story" about what happened. Basically, created a new persona to get around her, but couldn't figure out how to properly do so. This is the kind of evidence we needed from the get-go.
Both accounts have been perma-banned. "
Going to repost this.
If a problem is happening, I've been stalked on here but you don't see me going "Leaving FA forever shit administration" I just report it as it comes and shit gets done. Weasyl has far more people whom stalk and are worse. I could name multiple names. Most of these people banned from FA, trolls etc. Gotta have a tough skin on the internet.
Along with stalkers, you can't expect your problems to be resolved instantly, takes time, as if they want a way they will find one be it a new account or whatever.
The admins on Weasyl though are good from my experience and are communicative.
Weasyl has the same ruling on this type of thing. If you make a journal without evidence of claims they will remove it. Simple as that.
Why didn't she just block this person and move on? If he made alternate accounts to get around it he could have been reported and perma-suspension right there.
[inb4 flame because opinion]
The issue here, is it WAS reported, and the evidence was obliterated by an admin, and then the excuse for taking no action was "Well there's no evidence".
If you read above though Qoph states "The journal is preserved in user history when removed by an admin" so it's all there.
this
like, what the heck are you even talking about?? Popufur? Are you listening to yourself? Cause obviously not.
And drama with popufurs usually causes a noticeable shit storm, too.
Sadly it rarely happens, I can only name a few who are actually nice.
it's such a minute deal, but are you really so incompetent that you can't seriously deal with that issue already? People have been streaming for days.
hope weasyl shapes up. lot of stuffs been coming up thats making me lose quite a bit of faith on the site already.
I know, it has the potential but it's just not being used correctly honestly.
bless, it's such a huge disappointment, really. seeing all the threads on lulz about it and people exploiting some of the incompetence of the staff members, and how they haven't met their promised goals, etc. its just a little depressing.
hopefully someone bucks them into shape before they dig themselves into a nasty hole.
Rape, Death threats all that? You can get an injunction regardless of where you live on someone for that. So... that should really be done.
You are completely right, moving off a website, that's what they want, they want to chase you away from such things that make you smile. They want to be a detriment to your regular activities.
Perhaps I shall be packing up myself here soon and migrating to Weasyl, and the other obviously superior sites as well. I think it's about time many other users do the same. teach this site a lesson in empathy, and humility.
My main, and favorite site has always been Sofurry. But I'll follow you on Waasyl because damn it...I adore your work. I'm sad to see you go, but I can respect your decision.
:3
Plus im real sorry to hear about whats happening..!
I was stalked and constantly harassed by another user on this site. NOTHING at all was done about it, never got a message nor was the user ever contacted or anything. Even if I had screencaps from all the messages he sent me it made no Difference.
Either way im tired of how this site is ran. They need to take care of serious issues and stop with the little bullshit.
Either way im sorry to hear whats happening =/
This whole business is... Sick. I really don't know what to say. I just don't.
One: There is little to no evidence of stalking as the offender removed said material (apparently). They found themselves in 'hot water' and removed the evidence early.
Two: The admin who handled the case could not get all the information when the journal was removed. Due to the nature of the situation this went to the top and a lot of the evidence was gone from the stalker on purpose.
Three: Procedures in this case were inadequate for the situation. They cannot ban someone on little evidence and I have no idea if they archive information on they FA servers. The procedures must be updated for this type of situation. In this case the journal should have been kept until the case was settled and on top priority.
Finally: The admins do not want a witch hunt or angry mob on their hands. This has bordered on an angry mob. The code of conduct needs to be on the notice area of the main page for a week or so, to remind the uninformed they have rules on the site.
Disclaimer: I am not an admin but, I am looking at this based on what facts I could dig up in such a short time. My opinion does not represent FA but, point out the main cause that I currently think caused this situation. Do not yell at me or hate me for trying to understand how this happened or my opinion. My conclusion may change as I look into this further.
As of now, this is my conclusion.
What are you going to do about this? Like give the community a straight up answer stop trying to reason your way out of it, just give them what they want. The 'Answer'.
And before I get the "There was no evidence" thing... There apparently was, but was deleted by the mods.
So don't say "It all happened off of FA!" just because you deleted the journal where the guy admitted to what he was doing.
This is why I screencap and copy pasta everything questionable.
o.q
I am totally reposting this in my own journal.
The word must be spread!
That Dragoneer owns fa...
I think leaving over this is a bit excessive. Your friend can't just switch sites to fix an issue like this. Leaving this site yourself isn't going to do anything other than punish your watchers who love and admire your work. I'm probably not going to switch over to Weasyl. Why? Because it had COMPLETELY killed all the hype that it had by waiting over half a year to make it open to the public. But the debate of whether or not weasyl is just going to be another major failed art site is for another time.
There's just so many things to say, I have admired your suits for so long, I guess I'll just have to hope that you keep your site updated with the latest suits and submissions. You're one of my favorite makers and it really sucks that I won't get to see your updates anymore.
Uhm, just wanted to pull this bit out to share something.
Furry or not, it doesn't matter. You're still an individual and you are human. We all have a brain, and apparently hes an administrator. I've administrated many sites, it doesn't matter much of who or what you are, it's what you can do.
He is an administrator. He has to deal with a ton of stuff. Do I have any disagreements with how he/the mods have ran FA? You bet I do. There are MANY things that need to change. But, if this stalking is IRL and seriously bad, then don't you think an art site is the least of her worries? Why doesn't she block him? And when he goes around the block, then the admins will step in, although they should have stepped in after she made that journal.
However, that won't stop him. and switching art sites won't stop him. this is more serious than comments on FA, and banning him isn't going to solve her problem.
>:I
it sent me the register thing and then said it didn't work
so when i try to sign in with all the correct info it says it doesnt exist
so i try to register the username and email, username is taken and email is already registered
EMAIL IS NOT REGISTERED
USERNAME DOES NOT EXIST
what. i am so confused.
You could probably get the username of Beep :I I've tried it, I like it. I just don't really like uploading my artwork to furry websites anymore.
Woop woop :>
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/...../#cid:31839850
OH FA, WHYY
I meant that Williamca person with her 'popufur' comment!! I'm sorry if it linked back to yours @@
Just...popufur, really? I'm not over that...
I thought it linked to that but bleh
and no none at all ^^
I'm a PTSD sufferer and it sickens me to my core this is tolerated.
I have never had a DA and previously was forced off FA from bullying, I just want a place to stay.
Ill gladly follow you, if it seems they'll better protect us. I wanted to leave FA cause of the BS downages.
Thanks for taking time to respond
"Do to the frequency of comments made here which violate the site's Code of Conduct, this user's shout box will be temporarily locked.
Just because someone harassed another user, it is NOT okay to harass them in retaliation"
It appears that FancySkunk, an Administrator, is stating that fredricksam DID harass another user. So he gets administrative protection.
Sometimes I wish I had the powers of Killer Queen but that doesn't mean I condone killin' people.
We are still very much open to receiving evidence of anything that Fredricksam has done on our site which would justify banning him. Until we receive that though, people are effectively in arms that we did not ban him over conjecture and offenses which took place off-site (which we never act upon).
That's a lie and you are a liar. Chewfox is just the first name that springs to mind.
How fancy in everything he does.
Quite.
We still have the journal; we just cannot act on anything that is written in it.
I'm gonna be an ass and say that whoever ignores the cries for help of who gets bullied here would like to see a new Amanda Todd pop out, as - and I have to remind you that - with people who get extensively bullied, suicide is ALWAYS an option. No later than this week here where I live ( France ) a 13y.o. boy hung himself due to IRL bullyism.
I do know that online bullyism/stalking is slightly different from the RL one, but that doesn't means it has to be taken lightly either.
We very much wanted to help. It is never our desire to see users bullied and harassed. However, we also can't act before we have evidence of on-site infractions. In this case, it wasn't until after the fact that it became evident that the harasser had an alternate account which was clearly exhibiting behavior which is unacceptable on the site. It did not meet our standards of proof initially, and only met them as the account became active during the mass of journals circulating the issue.
If someone who has been known for stalking people will be allowed to register and go on a forum I administrate ? Of course not, unless he or she proves me extremely valid reasons for that.
And if someone reports me that this person has been purposefully acting in a wrong side, I'm gonna purposefully - and as cruel and unfair as it may seem - ban the newcomer, even if he or she did nothing on the website I administrate.
In my opinion a similar stance should have been followed by the FA admins.
I think this story would have a very different outcome.
No offense Sciggles, sorry to use you as an example.
In an unrelated note, your Icon terrifies me for some reason.
I doubt so.
Also the FBI can act pretty quickly on that ( had to contact them once ) so it's always a possiblity.
She was obviously scared and confused about what to do. So she made a journal to make sure people knew what was happening to her. I know if someone was posting my real name, with my address and rape stories I'd be a little confused and scared about what to do as well.
I don't think this was a matter of not having enough evidence. But a matter of FA not caring enough to help steer this poor girl in the right direction to help rid her of this obvious stalker.
In the meantime, what we have been circulating is a response explaining the in-action: http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/...../#cid:31841971
As an admin of at least 7 forums, I always keep under hand the possiblity to escalate my power to an unprecedented reach to do what's right to solve the situation.
Sadly the whole admin team is apparently busy trying to cover for each other rather than actually doing something about the problem.
But you're using it now :I
I like your icon though
IDK if it exists on the US penal code though.
There is a HUGE difference between running from something and taking your leave as protest or to otherwise protect yourself out of necessity. Running away is like implying that someone is hiding from some fault of their own, when they are only trying to take their own measures to solve the problem because the people they should be able to rely on have failed them. Such is the case here. Activities found their way onto this website and the wrong course of action was taken. This meant that with whatever evidence could have been provided being wiped, the victim had nothing to lean on and essentially no reason to believe in the integrity of the people who are supposed to be working to protect the website and its population.
Yes, the admins are not the police but they ARE the police of FurAffinity. Obviously, they can't magically arrest someone, but they can help prevent it from happening on the website they have power on, which has already been stated countless times and still even through all of the explanation as to why the actions taken were wrong, they still deny wrong-doings or try to make it seem like less than it is.
This would not have blown up so furiously had it not been a situation where the victim was directly in danger because especially sensitive information was being dished out willy-nilly. Would you feel safe if someone you knew nothing about openly fantasized about you, posted your information publicly, and came after you anywhere and any way they could? I don't think you would.
Time and again anywhere you go, when a problem persists and progressively gets worse, and when normal procedures yield little to no results toward a positive future because an obvious pattern of mistakes and/or obliviousness continues on strong, what have people done? Remove themselves from the damaging situation. A lot of the time, people are even shown the door for bringing up an issue within online communities either by force or through the cold shoulder. Leaving of your own accord is a way to say that you are not going to put up with being mistreated by the offender(s) OR the people who are supposed to help you deal with the situation in an orderly fashion.
What's been done is the roles have been reversed. The offender is being treated as the victim, and to be fair, the endless reel of comments did not help the situation take a turn for the better. Now pity was taken on the account and users are prevented from making comments while it's also implied that the offender DID INDEED commit forms of harassment simply by the wording. So there seems to be an understanding that they were in the wrong. Seems.
NOW.
The fact that the Code of Conduct should be brought up in that fashion when it has a much bigger and better use in this entire situation makes me want to vomit, but in that respect, they are correct. The same can be said for spamming Dragoneer, as irresponsible as the actions taken may be throughout whatever history there is behind him.
This entire thing has basically gone too far when it could have very easily been solved and that is the issue. Someone doesn't feel safe, they called out for help and were immensely let down and no petty apology or good-guy reminders are going to fix that. Reformation and better choices are what mend this obviously deep feud between the sit admins and the community.
I think what also needs to be remembered here is that the community keeps the site running. We all have seen it. There's a donation page. If no one is here there are no donations and the place will crash. There goes your money unless you can quickly come up with a harebrained scheme to keep an empty site going. That's how it is everywhere. If you have no one to come and bring the traffic you have nothing. Both sides work in harmony and everything is cool. If it can't function as a community it falls apart. I think this and many other examples I could probably dig up in a quick search prove this enough.
Im gonna stop rambling now.
TL;DR: Saying leaving because proper help is not being given is running away is total bullshit and everyone is getting super ridiculous.
This has become less and less about the situation at hand and more about aggression from all angles. Everyone should get their acts together and go about things properly, which includes not running off to flame people and wonder why the situation gets worse. The end.
As the person who wrote the explanation for the locked shout box, I'd like to respond. Based on my own interpretation of the events, I do believe that Taragryph was harassed and/or stalked by fredricksam. However, I would like to note that I also have not seen evidence to suggest that any of this harassment took place on FurAffinity. That is inherently the issue behind all of this. We were unable to act because we were never given on-site evidence. We did privately ask for such evidence both in a trouble ticket and in the notification given to Taragryph upon the take down of her journal. There was very much a desire to settle the issue, but our policies required it to be settled in a non-public setting.
I might be misunderstanding the situation, but I feel like there are multiple stories on what was happening. Either way, I feel that FA is still a good site, despite it's flaws. I want to see it held together and I think that taking more affirmative action to prevent situations of this nature would be a good way to ensure it's stability. I've given my two cents and I hope it's not frown upon. Truly, all I want is to voice my opinion on this.
If the site admins wanted to act against the stalker on suspicion of a ToS violation, they could. They are very much the police of FA. What would the stalker do if he got banned? Sue the admins? Ragequit from FA? A ragequit would've been nice. It would've given the real victim a safety haven in the furry community. Instead, she got the boot to the face.
It's very, very, very scary when an online stalker has personally identifiable information. It's even worse when this stalker chooses to take action against you and seriously devastate your offline life.
The law in the "real world" isn't black and white either. A Canadian woman was caught by an undercover cop when she tried to put a hit on her abusive husband, a man who would threaten to kill her and their daughter. This man would hold a gun against her head. She was so scared that she was RELIEVED when the police arrested her; she felt safer in a cell than in her own home.
Despite her attempt at murder, she got tried by the law and the charges were released.
Furaffinity, probably the most well-known furry website, would rather hurt a woman in hiding, enrage a significant number of site users, and hide behind a wall of "Terms" than solve a problem without repercussion. Although I was a "furry" for several years, I hadn't begun interacting with other members of the fandom until a little over a year ago. After seeing all that I have, and enduring what I'd rather not have faced, I don't believe there is an actual "furry community." If there really is one and I can't see it, then I guess I'm not a real member of the fandom.
All of this strongly disturbs me. The fact that a lack of "evidence" warrants a stalker's protection shows how black and white this place really is.
The admin's actions were not professional. Even if regulations were followed, serious accusations should never be handled so abruptly, let alone with a multi-hour delay before a staff response.
There comes a time where stepping a little or a lot out of protocol is necessary. This is one of 'em, but it's pretty much too little too late.
He gets banned from a free website with open, public registration.
YOUR CLIENT'S INFORMATION IS SAFE!!! FOREVER!!! PHEW! It's a good thing that YOU didn't have to take any action to make your information private and secure. It's a good thing your client didn't leave that kind of information floating around!
GROW UP.
Or don't. And expect people with invisible internet strings to step out of their own draconian laws in order to side with you and only you, just this one time and see that it's fair to harass someone as long as they harassed you first, instead of, oh say, bringing it to the right people's attention in a purely concerned manner. Yes. A trouble ticket is nice. A trouble ticket after a journal post ousting them is like trying to point to the other person after you've both spilled milk and crying it's his fault. I'm not trying to lighten the accusations here by calling them spilled milk... but if you've ever seen milk spilled twice, it's awful hard to tell who spilled first when they both just kinda run together in this big, milky mess.
I don't know what else to say, because I hope this journal, too, will get the boot.
(andofcourseitwasnaoffsiteissueblahblahblah)
From my standpoint as an artist/ businesswoman/ person.
Being a furry has nothing to do with this.
As in linked, posted, or referenced to at any time through his profile or comment. Just curious.
This is FA. Are you really surprised?
Neutrality....a beautiful thing...
Neutrality =/= fairness.
Actually, there is a third option as well. Staying "neutral" lets you do business with both sides of the conflict and profit without risk. See history of WW2.
The guy was a fuckin creep, no doubt about it. Taran you have my deepest sympathies in regards for having to put up with him and if it were up to me I'd have broken his jaw and smashed his computer into a million pieces just so he couldn't bother anyone anymore.
It sounds like all of his ACTUAL creepyness/stalking crap took place off of FA though. A lot of links in shouts and semi-creepy comments from what I hear but nothing direct on FA itself. So TECHNICALLY he didn't violate any of FA's ToS etc. etc. so he couldn't just be suspended unless he was blocked and proceeded to go around it... Pretty sure I've got all that just about right.
So, I understand why Dragoneer didn't drop the smack down on this guy from a technical stand point.
BUT! My question is... why the fuck do you want someone like this associated with your site in the first place? Whether or not the evidence is ON FA it's STILL THERE. He's a CREEP, period! Why not ban him and forget he exists? What's the worst that's gonna happen? Someone who is CLEARLY effed in the head goes and flames FA on some other sites and complains and blah blah blah blah and maybe a few of his effed in the head creepy friends leave the website too?... OH NO! WE LOST MORE CREEPS!!!! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! Our popularity among the scum of the Earth dropped!
You mentioned there being a difference between what you want and what is right. What was right would've clearly been to show a little compassion for someone who is claiming to be a victim. If someone runs up screaming that they've just been robbed and they know who did it you don't tell them to shut up and stop slandering the man's name until you've got some hard evidence... You help them calm down by reassuring them you're going to do everything you can to handle the situation. Contacting Taran before deleting the journal probably would've been best so she would at least know "Hey, you can't do call-outs like this cuz it's against the rules BUT we are going to go through every scrap of data and take proper course of action. I suggest blocking this user, if he persists around the block he will be banned."
Simple as that...
But... instead you took the route of being afraid to offend this guy being accused of stalking... Oh... freaking... no... And now look what's happened... you've got more people pissed off then if you'd just banned his disgusting ass and swept him under the rug! Show a little MUSCLE in that creepy behavior like this is NOT something you want associated with your website! Take some PRIDE in the community you have here and help them feel safe and secure in that if people like this DO show up they'll be dealt with! Regardless of whether or not the offenses "TECHNICALLY" took place on FA.
You mentioned not wanting an admin of a site to judge us based on our actions on another site. While I agree I don't want the admin of a site for a job application to scrutinize my facebook (or my FA for that matter). If someone makes the CHOICE to take part in criminal and overall effed up behavior like STALKING... Then I think it should be open season on them. They CHOSE to attack this person online and make them feel unsafe. Like I said... do you really want someone like that to be associated with your website at all?...
To be truthful, and not try to start my own rant (because there's the argument of "people, not just furries"), I -do- wonder if being a fan of "Furry" and all that is worth this kind of...garbage. Liars, creeps, disloyalty (which, yes I know, "People, not just furries"), and other dishonorable mentions just seem...almost abnormally common among this group ("Group" where-in "Furries").
But that may just be my experiences trying to cloud my judgement.
That is all *Bow*
Of course we have to follow rules, but there is times where rules are obstacles we have to ignore to act in true fairness.
So as much as I understand that Dragoneer didn't want to act just on behalf of stuffthat happened on DA ( AKA not here ) the facts that have been brought up are definitely serious enough to take action on the spot, even if nothing of the sort happened here on FA.
//bows out since there is nothing this one can do
Just reading the comments and how everyones been responding to this makes me laugh and rather disgusted. I would post this on Artists Beware today the user, so that everyone can permantly read this journal and be aware of what happened today.
The trouble is that people feel far too entitled to not air their neurotic grievances. And this is why I will never become a staff member of FurAffinity. Because no good deed goes unpunished when there's plenty of drama queens who are experts in blaming the staff for problems that the staff did not cause. Really. If a fellow tenant of an apartment building slaps you in the face, do you turn around and slap your landlord for not kicking them out of their apartment? No. You gather evidence of being slapped and go to the police.
I'm disgusted, too, Zardis.
Not only did he Openly admit he didn't really read anything I wrote, He put words in my mouth and told me writing the details up for him was "Rude" (Because it was a tad long) and I basically snapped and told him putting false words in my mouth was rude... but the end result is, the admins here have no CLUE what "Admin/Moderation means"
lets look at the Vague/Silly Policy's of the site, "Don't bring personal drama or problems to the site" so based on this rule 98%? of the entire site would be suspended/banned.. If they really enforced that, I told the same admin who admitted he didn't read anything I wrote that that rule should really be Revised, because the staff where choosing and picking which rules violated that, but lets be honest here, "Don't bring personal problems to the site" that would mean any thing about your life or problems with your family just having a well 'a journal up' would be in violation.
One of my journals that contained evidence for me.. Was deleted because I shared a experience about something that took place irl, it was NOT a call out journal, it was a Heres what happen and heres how I feel.
it was removed, and they Claimed it was moved because of "harassment" there was no harassment in that journal, The next admin I spoke to claimed it was removed because of the Policy "Don't bring personal drama or problems to the site" Yet thats not the Policy the first admin who took the action used, and when I asked for a copy I was told they don't keep records that when they delete something it doesn't get saved it gets permanently removed, so dragoneer claiming to have a copy is kinda Iffy because from what I was told by one of the admins who trains the Other admins... the moment they hit remove, its "Gone" no copys left, no backups on their Servers etc...
What blew my mind the most was the admin I spoke to openly admitted to not reading hardly anything I posted, and proved it rather easily with his posts that had nothing to do with anything I wrote to him trying to get help
and this is the guy who supposedly trains the Other admins! that's just -as- reassuring
I Come from a long line of management and administration, going from Owning a rl computer company, to Estate manager in Second life, Running my own social site of 5k Plus people with a staff of 2! and handling all problems in 72 hours or less, Running a open arms community, and I was just shaking my head at this admins responses to me.. they where unhelpful, Uncaring, more like I'm not going to read, whatever, feel free to keep talking thou, thats when I packed up my page and said I was done using FA for my pictures or such.
the statements about the abuse of power are true, I was targeted, and have a few friends who where targeted and claimed something violated a policy it did not or given the wrong policy on what we where 'supposedly breaking'
I wanted to pitch in my experience because allot of comments are sharing what they been though.
and so far anytime I've tried to post anything like this its been hidden by admins.
And people wonder why they don't like their kids on the websites for shit that happened with MySpace and crap!!! This pisses me off I will be reporting this and creating a page on the other site!
Stupid people!!!
The FA admins cannot ban someone for doing something on another website, it is a legal thing. They can be sued as the events did not take place on this website (as far as I know).
I will give an example:
Someone posts beastliality porn on youtube, and posts a pic on tweeter, violating the TOS with both websites, and can be banned from both sites. BUT! If they didn't post anything related on twitter, they cannot be banned from twitter. As the TOS was followed.
The same goes for FA.
Now I agree that the guy is a creep, FA can't take action against them without evidence stating that these events not only took place on DA, but on FA as well(the events I mean are the ones where he provided personal info, asking inappropriate questions etc). The only option she has is to block him from this website, report him to DA (only if he violated the TOS, which he most likely did, but I do not know their TOS is), and contact the authorities if he has threatened her in real life.
Actually, I'm not so sure. Race and National Origin are two of many protected classes in this country (I'm assuming FA is still hosted in the US). See here. Most of the laws concern themselves with employers, but some of them apply more generally to any entity, perhaps also individuals.
tl;dr: If you think about it for a moment, all this drama is really fucking stupid.
B) taran's accusations have been proven multiple times.
C) you're dumb.
D) Taran wasn't trying to stir up A VIGILANTE POSSE she was warning people about this freak stalker.
E) fa staff is bad.
F) drama is delicious now shut up and eat your cereal.
You're saying that this girl who was being stalked and was a potential rape target is at fault for not having been 100% level headed throughout the ordeal.
As for not trying to raise a posse, I don't buy it. You don't warn people about someone who is stalking you - obsessive fixation on an individual is kind of the whole point of stalking. Assuming the various authorities clamped down on this guy - and boy, did we get premature on that call - then he would no longer be an issue on any of the sites involved, so the 'warning' would be for nothing. Any time you see the word "warning" on the Internet in reference to a specific individual, you may safely replace it with the phrase, "I'm mad at this person, and I want you to be mad at them too."
How is showing solidarity with a rape target "self-righteous"?
And no, the fact that the stalker was eventually banned, after the community backlash, does not make this all "drama" nor does it change the fact that it was handled egregiously.
Also why are you giving the admins who removed the journal, who have a years-long reputation of misrepresenting such cases, the benefit of the doubt concerning its content?
"Eventually banned"? Just how fast do you think these things get processed?
I give the admins the benefit of the doubt because the accusation made against them is silly. It's like cartoon villainy. "I have relinquished my voluntary duties and summarily DELETED all the evidence backing up your complaint! Because I am evil, and that's what evil does! MUAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!" Yeah, that's more credible than a bunch of hothead furries whipping themselves into a frothing rage at the behest of a popufur.
But mostly the Encyclopedia Dramatica on him, which I'm honestly more inclined to believe than anything anyone else says, especially given that we're talking about Dragoneer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encycl.....edia_Dramatica
I know full well what ED is, and the nature of it. It's one of my favorite sites for its humor and biting commentary on the people who have articles made for them. As I explicitly, and plainly stated in my comment, I said that I'd sooner trust ED than anything anyone else says, given who we're talking about.
Let me put this in plain, everyday English so there is little chance of you misunderstanding:
I don't like Dragoneer. I don't trust Dragoneer. I don't like people who like Dragoneer. I don't trust people who like Dragoneer. I would sooner trust what is posted on Dragoneer's ED article than I would trust Dragoneer or his fans.
I know that ED is made for the lulz. That's why I like it. However, just because it's made for the lulz does not mean that it cannot contain the truth as well. I don't take anything on the internet at face value, and indeed, nobody should.
What I am saying is that I consider what is written about Dragoneer in the ED article to be closer to my perception of the truth than what I hear from other furries close to him.
Does that explain my stance on the matter clearly enough?
STALKER HAS BEEN TAKEN CARE OF AND PERMA BANNED! information was found that he was using a sock puppet account and hopping around her ban:
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/...../#cid:31844139
short answer: yes i think it still would have been.
A stalker was reported, admin didn't have enough evidence, so he didn't do anything. Later he got enough evidence and did something. People got whiny and are jumping ship anyway.
I'm not a huge fan of all this site's decisions, but this looks like it was a decently handled open and shut case.
And for the people with their panties in a bunch that it wasn't swift and painful justice, stay classy, FA.
In case others wish to see:
STALKER HAS BEEN TAKEN CARE OF & PERMA BANNED! information was found that he was using a sock puppet account and hopping around her ban:
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/...../#cid:31844139
In case others wish to see:
STALKER HAS BEEN TAKEN CARE OF & PERMA BANNED! information was found that he was using a sock puppet account and hopping around her ban:
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/...../#cid:31844139
Pretty shitty on all ends I say.
"But he's banned, get over it."
I think people seriously need to stfu and move on. It's done, it's over with, we can do nothing about it, get over it people.
So yes, just drama.
2. "Moving on" and ignoring a serious, persistent failure of management means accepting that it is and should be normal. It should not.
3. It's only done until the next case is horribly botched. Let's hope they also have a popular user on their side to get something accomplished.
We might not be able to do anything about what happened, but we CAN do something to prevent this from happening again. Completely ignoring a horrible act is the absolute worst you can do. It's an insult to the victim, it allows the criminal to continue doing what they do, and it'll hurt more people down the line.
So stop telling people to stfu about this because I'm certainly not going to.
I know there is a vast difference between shooting kids and stalking/harrassing a woman online, but I was talking about the concept of moving on, not trying to draw a comparison. I'm just saying that moving on solves nothing. It only hurts the situation. To move on is impossible. This event will no doubt stay with this poor woman for the rest of her life. So the proper thing to do would be to make sure nobody has to suffer what she went through again, not just forget it every happened.
Not sure if 100% accurate but Dragoner's got a lot of gall protecting this sexual creep on his site.
What if...
This whole drama was an elaborate plot concocted by Weasyl staff to pull users away from FA and get them to move to a newer site?
Both conspiracy theories share something in common. They're completely baseless and equally useless to the entire issue at hand.
As for the prime issue itself, I feel I speak for about 85 to 90 percent of the people who have commented here. I wasn't there, I wasn't involved in any minute fraction, and all I have is an opinion based purely on hearsay. Being stalked is certainly no joke, and mistakes were more than likely made on BOTH sides. This whole thing could have been handled in better ways, but has since blown up into a hailstorm of needless drama and useless, knee-jerk, uninformed or misinformed reactions.
If you were not immediately involved with the issue and/or are just using this opportunity to take pot shots at the higher ups, then you have no business contributing to the mob mentality that has already run rampant on this journal.
Truth be told, Taran, you have my sympathies. While I think you may have gone about battling the stalker issue the wrong way, no one can fault you for trying to defend yourself. I honestly hope a peaceful conclusion can be found to this whole thing. As I said, I wasn't there when it happened, and I wasn't involved. All I have is an opinion, but I think there are more than enough of those to go around.
dragoneer is pretty much lazy douche as he lets quite afew of the admins go power crazy with there mod priviledges an use them to harrash people into getting there own way. dragoneers job other than running this place is unknown as he will say he does one job an then tell another person he does another, he could just be skimming donations profits to pay for his own living an if so does explain why site often goes months with problems before there fixed unless its something that would cause them quite abit of down time an less donations.
in the end dragoneer an most of his admins dont give shit about people an just rather take there time with stuff
In case others wish to see:
STALKER HAS BEEN TAKEN CARE OF & PERMA BANNED! information was found that he was using a sock puppet account and hopping around her ban:
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/...../#cid:31844139
both accounts were perma banned and i believe that means he is IP banned as well?
I think this is being blown way out of proportion by all these people having their say on this ( and yes I'm aware I'm doing it to) but really... I think the admin had a good reason why he did what he did, sure we didn't see all of it but like has been said before this is a really touchy subject... I think by posting something like this the way it has been done, does more damage than good =\ an yes we should be aware of what's happening but guys... Isn't there another way ?? There may have been made mistakes but we are all human who still learn from day to day. I don't think any harm was meant by what the admin did...I came here to have a safe haven and to be myself, yet I am aware things like this can happen, and I'm not saying I'm approving, not at all. If there are threats in abuse, rape, death treats and so on actions have to be taken but, admins on a site can only so so much right ?? Now I'm not trying to step on anyone's toes here o.o bit I think this whole situation does more damage than good for both sides >.<
Jesus christ people are not just upset at the stalker, they are upset at the staff. Stop spamming them because of that.
Is all I'm getting from this.
This is a frustration with a pattern. This is not an isolated incident. I've lost count of the number of times someone calling out a person causing real problems in the community is punished first, then the situation is only rectified when a community backlash flares up. FA has a reputation for things like this and there's no indication of a shift of attitude. That's why people are frustrated.
In case others wish to see:
STALKER HAS BEEN TAKEN CARE OF & PERMA BANNED! information was found that he was using a sock puppet account and hopping around her ban:
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/...../#cid:31844139
In case others wish to see:
STALKER HAS BEEN TAKEN CARE OF & PERMA BANNED! information was found that he was using a sock puppet account and hopping around her ban:
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/...../#cid:31844139
In case others wish to see:
STALKER HAS BEEN TAKEN CARE OF & PERMA BANNED! information was found that he was using a sock puppet account and hopping around her ban:
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/...../#cid:31844139
In case others wish to see:
STALKER HAS BEEN TAKEN CARE OF & PERMA BANNED! information was found that he was using a sock puppet account and hopping around her ban:
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/...../#cid:31844139
In case others wish to see:
STALKER HAS BEEN TAKEN CARE OF & PERMA BANNED! information was found that he was using a sock puppet account and hopping around her ban:
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/...../#cid:31844139
In case others wish to see:
STALKER HAS BEEN TAKEN CARE OF & PERMA BANNED! information was found that he was using a sock puppet account and hopping around her ban:
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/...../#cid:31844139
In case others wish to see:
STALKER HAS BEEN TAKEN CARE OF & PERMA BANNED! information was found that he was using a sock puppet account and hopping around her ban:
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/...../#cid:31844139
seriously im done posting about this now. i don't know how you can miss this post unless you are blind.
~going offline for the night if you reply it'll respond later.
The logic just breaks my brain. D:
I have ran gaming community websites with 200+ people and trying to manage just that many people, things just start to go insane. You have to pick and choose the issues to fix because you cannot simply fix them all. I am not taking either side, just facing the facts that not everyone can be pleased.
Many people bitch about Dragoneer and/or the website, or whatever... if anyone can do better, then learn Web-land language and make it... nobody is stopping anyone from doing that. The problem with this is FA has been around for years. If you want customers within the fandom or to get noticed... you are going to eventually have to come here if you want bulk masses to see your stuff. Plenty of professionals even use this website and post here.
"Fixing FA" is not going to solve a stalker issue. The issue has to be attacked at the source as any problem should.
Y'know people thought exactly that and now we have Weasyl which is pretty bitchin'.
People will still continue to use this site until it dies. That is fact. (Even if they do not want to - most anyways.)
You said "Go make your own site" and someone did, s'all I was saying.
How did this stalker get her real name and address anyway?
It seems lately that more and more negative behavior is being condoned, and what the mods don't seem to take into account is that once people learn they can get away with something online, they believe they can get away with it in real life too. That's how i got molested at a fur con three years ago. Some guy who was messing with people and causing trouble, and even when he was reported, nobody in a position of power pulled this guy aside and told him it was wrong. all anybody did was run off to tell the other staffers. Even though i was the THIRD person that the guy touched [the other two were suiters who he felt up both in and out of suit, were too scared to come forward until after i broke the ice] even then they didn't perma-ban him form the con, or even pull his badge for the weekend because it was his first year at the con [at least i was told they didn't, but the decision may have been changed later]
These sort of actions are not okay, whether its stalking, molesting, or showing hatred, treating people like this is not okay. i fully support your decision to leave. I only hope that your decision has an impact/ripple effect, seeing as how you are such a well-known artist, i only hope that the admins will take notice and give these issues a second thought.
not hearing/seeing those simple words really affects a person. in my opinion, if they have some plausible evidence, but not enough, they can [and should in some cases] temporarily ban an account. after all, the TOS does say that they can choose to ban an account at any time for any reason. i understand wanting to delete the journal to subdue drama, but there-in deleting evidence of conflict is too big of a negative. besides, i think it's important people know that these things are happening. I'd certainly want to know if i was working with a possible stalker, even if it hadn't been proved. there are other communities where, when this sort of thing happens, the administration actually steps in to take actions to temporarily subdue the accused until they can prove it and perma-ban, or until legal action is pursued.
i just get disheartened by events like these, and the many other cases of stalking and hate that are VERY public, and not dealt with or shown any sympathy.
Shit happens, it's not our drama.
Dragoneer
(No Subject) Posted: an hour ago
Look at my comment below this. =3 Some tangible evidence turned up on the site, as he tried to get around her with a new account. If we'd had this originally we'd have taken action from the get-go, but I don't want to take severe action based on off site/partial evidence.
That said, I also included an IP Ban in the care package I sent for Taran's piece of mind. I respect that she may not come back to the site, but I can at least try to make sure he doesn't do it to anyone else.
i think he showed sympathy. honestly i think he cares more then people are giving him credit for :X ~just my two cents~
gyuuu sorry for the wall of text ;w;
and yeah i realise that they must be flooded with pms, complaints, and tickets not only from this event but form others as well, and it surely takes a long time to sift through it all. i guess its just the same reason i still call out one of my best friends for being a bitch sometimes. i know thats just how she is, but i don't have to like it, and i always have the hope she will stop one day. i can completely agree with him that if it happens here, it can happen on other places, but the way it was worded it sorta seems like an excuse, which it really isn't. the lack of level-headed-ness is part of the reason i think it might have been wiser NOT to delete the journal.. because then it would have been only the people who saw her journal... but by deleting it, they lit a fire in every person who saw her journal, and more. and i know that wasn't the INTENTION, but that seems to be part of the reason it exploded... then agian i didnt even see the original journal so i can't really say. i do commend their neutrality, that is definitely the hardest part of dealing with such a fiasco. i guess i've just always been the sort of person where, to me, the process almost matters more than the result... i'm liek that in everything i do, my art, school, relationships... thats why i harp on that i suppose XD
Bein' the boss ain't easy and people are gonna bring up all the bad that ever happened if someone ain't perfect. Granted I don't know everything and I'm not defending a single person so much as talking in general, but still >.<;; This whole thing has been... a bit contemptible.
In the absence of law, the only thing that thrives is corruption.
And this has been really ridiculous, this should have been handled properly from the start.
it happened on da, and they banned the guy from FA before he could, you people are fucking idiots
In the end its about feeling safe. If your userbase doesn't feel safe no one is going to want to be here. End of story a lot of people are leaving because they no longer feel safe. You also have to see it from other's eyes as well , a lot of people commenting seem to have been stalked before like this. The idea that it would take either A. 2+ support tickets and a long deal of waiting B. a whole shitstorm C. oh wait more waiting. Is kinda a bad thoght. My ex stalked me almost everywhere now - luckly he has'nt found me here or i'd be worried that all my 'off site evidence' and his you know 'creepy' comments wern't enough evidence to keep him away fome me.
//also mind my grammar it is late and I'm slightly peeved I have nothing ageist any of the members of fa that side with the admins.
She didn't leave because of the "harassment that can happen anywhere" it was becuase the admin handling it cocked up and punished her for being a victim.
So no, neer, shooting the messenger does NOT happen everywhere.
Yay for a late correction?
I will follow you overthere, and let this stinky page alone!!!
I hope she will get freedom there. I pray for it to happen!
Person A proceeded to spam Person B, but... Person B didn't block Person A under the excuse it wouldn't work.
Since person B wasn't really taking it seriously by not using the 10 second tool they had to block the person, and instead made a journal calling the person out on another site... FA deleted the journal and all the comments (but held them as evidence) and investigated this issue.
However, since there was no harm or foul on FA, and since Person B didn't even try to stop Person A the Admins had to more or less chop it off as unbased drama because (once again) Person B didn't even try to stop the problem.
<Shitstorm starts right about here>
Around this time Person B finally decides 'Hey, I SHOULD ACTUALLY BLOCK THE PERSON" and does so. Person A then makes a new account to try to go around the block. This, being against TOS, allowed the FA admins to end the issue then and there.
This shit happens ALL. THE. TIME. and the bans oftentimes aren't even called out (and, as with every other site, never should be.). Its almost impossible to wade through the pus that is personal drama or 'harassment' so you have to only go off the concrete facts.
(As to the bans on offsite pedophiles, those were banned off of information in notes, or based off of a public and legally tried guilty verdict on information that could be damaging to FA. Its a bit of a grey area, but to link harassment by what is most likely a mentally ill (or just plain fucking retarded) 14 year old kid to issues of child rape that actually happened with concrete legal evidence is something a bit different.
Welcome to the world of lawsuits, where nothing makes fucking sense but does at the same time. Leave your morals at the door.
I can't fault the staff on this one at all simply because "Person B" as you put it, never bothered to BLOCK "Person A". Without that SMALL SMALL SMALL action on B's fault, the staff only has reason to feel that it's probably nothing more than your standard FA Drama if said person can't be bothered to even BLOCK their offender.
I'm by no means saying that the Admin Staff is 100% fuck-up free, but you can't blame them for not taking an issue seriously that the victim wasn't taking seriously themselves by BLOCKING their offender and giving staff members something they could operate within.
Being a gamer, I guess the fact that I see this sort of stuff on a daily basis makes it so I'm not taking it seriously: welcome to the internet.
Thank you.
*shrugs and goes to post a journal to spread the word*
Even more infuriating that they actually support the idea of 'drama' to situations that far more serious than people perceive them to be, and the lack of sympathy, as well as tact and presumably common sense, is disgusting. Its really, really hard for me to watch someone make such an approach and honestly believe that people would willingly agree to the decision.
After abuse like that, shes got every last damn right to leave a site, furthermore a community. Bad things happen to good people and I hope Tarans situation can be fixed, and I hope she comes back, as she doesn't deserve to be treated like that.
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/...../#cid:31844139
I wish you the best with your endeavors, whatever site you are on. I have heard of your work, but am only on here.
I just KNEW things wouldn't change with the hiring of those new admins. Barely any of them seem to have ANY knowledge of the history of FA for the past several years, much less the specifics of the TOS. Or they simply don't care about enforcing it.
Its the same fucking story. Total lack of enforcing site rules and the TOS. Not to mention punishing the victim of something VERY serious and horrible. And most of all, none of the staff give a fuck. At least, their actions, or rather, lack of actions certainly make it seem that way. I can't tell you how many trolls and downright horrible people I have had the displeasure of dealing with, that were never ever punished for their violations and rule breakings.
As I expected, the new staff is just as incompetent as the old staff.
Shame on those who judged poorly and did not seize proper responsibility for the situation (Moderators)..
Thing that they don't understand is.. I don't care if I get removed from here for standing up for what I believe is right. It just means that I thought people had humanity in them, not become some primitive husks that I see more and more of each day.
I feel bad for those who feel they are pushed out. Damn Shame.
With our children at our feet
And the morals that they worship will be gone
And the men who spurred us on
Sit in judgment of all wrong
They decide and the shotgun sings the song
I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around me
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
And I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again
Don't get fooled again
YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
There have been tons of small nagging annoyances since I started on this site and a handful of somewhat bigger problems but this is just the last fucking straw. I'm gone. Peace out. I'll be on Weasyl if anyone cares to watch me there.
Sorry, FA, but victim blaming is so not ok it's not even funny. Destruction of evidence is even worse. I hope they have backlogs saved because if she goes to the police and they subpoena them for those journals/comments as part of the investigation and they don't have it, they're in some deep shit.
I have a pretty good overview of what that guy posted as I had seen a lot of it before he himself deleted it to avoid further action from our side. We found posts and stolen art on many sites like DA, flickr, youtube, facebook and so on. We had all this info in the first journal of Taran where he also commented on that. His view was that he is allowed to post stolen art "because everyone does it" and that he is allowed to post sex stories of her using her real life name and adress "because no one on that forum complained about". Those comments were in the comments to the journal which got deleted. I think that is enough evidence that he was really posting that information.
Of course this was not taking place here on FurAffinity. But even here he posted photos, comments and shouts containing information like that. I can sadly not see e.g. the shouts any more as they are now pushed off the page. The photos and such were apparently also deleted by himself when he became aware that actions against him are coming up. So that evidence seems to got lost while Taran was waiting for the TroubleTicket to get answered.
About the blocking: Of course she could have blocked him. But (according to my knowledge) that would only have meant that she looses every way to see what that guy is posting. Do you want your stalker post things behind your back because you removed your ability to see what he is doing?
I think the biggest issue left is the deletion of that journal. It seems that this was the action from adminstration that finally caused Taran to leave as it had a very bad timing with the other pending ticket. I have a feeling, that the admin has overreacted in that case. First it would have been nice to check if there are any other tickets regarding that case which would maybe say that this journal could be important. And I also see a huge difference if someone is just posting a ranting journal about another user (whcih even I would see as being against TOS) or if a user is making a journal to warn other users about evidenced illegal actions.
I will also take some consequences from my side: I have already started to build a "second home" on Weasyl and I will reduce my activities here. I dont see it as a reason to leave immediately but I will continue to observe how the situation here evolves. In case that the admins and Dragoneer himself continue to act in the way like they handled this situation it would be a good reason to shut down all activities here.
EIN
Will admit reading these comments killed a few of my brain cells.
Or did nobody BOTHER noticing that? It took them a bit if time to get evidence ON-SITE to make him ban-worthy. F*ck, relax a little. Furthermore, several admins AND Dragoneer have all responded and handled it.
...if only we could harness it somehow. We would have a source of infinite, free energy!
As it seems now that unless u cause a shitstorm and get alot of people behind you there will be nothing done about it....
I know people who have been stalked and threatend on FA who DID ban said person, who then went and made another account to do the same again.... they also got there friends and 'followers' to harrass and threaten said person.....
Tickets were sent to admins over the course of a few months who said there was no evidence.... even tho it was on FA and comments were only hidden not deleted but said person who was being harrassed made a journal on another site with links and proof to the harrassment (they also posted the same journal on FA and it was the person who got harrassed who was banned and punished not those who were doing the harrassing and threats......
The matter has been taken up with the police and they are looking into it..
so if you want to leave FA....fucking leave, no need to make a huge song and dance about it
Good luck to you, and good luck to FA.
*hugs* Better internet days for you.
It happened to me for example, for months now I have been dealing with a issue with a couple users on here. I have tried making things right but all I have gotten was backstabbing, threats, journals defending themselves which make me out to be somekind of monster to the users of FA, in turn have some users thinking ill of me without getting to know me.
Cyber bullying can become a legal offense, but not only I, but a couple users have went to admins about this, filed tickets, and in the past all that has happened is the those bullying me have gotten away with it and I have had pieces & journals taken down...
I joined FA to make friends, to share my work and to just enjoy myself within the community, but honestly Im slowly beginning to see the ugly side of FA. I have a weasyl account: https://www.weasyl.com/profile/coffincadaver
if anyone would want to follow me or friend me there.
But I am on your guys side 100%, the admins or the higher ups of this site as a whole need to get off their asses and run the site like they should instead of doing it half-assed...
1. The admin who originally handled the situation is no longer an admin here.
2. According to Dragoneer, Tarangryph NEVER blocked her harasser (at least not on FA).
3. Tarangryph never spoke to Dragoneer or personally asked him to help her.
4. The final ban happened as Fredriksam created a sock account to try to get around to Tarangryph. This was solid evidence that he was harassing her and when he did this, they banned not only him and his sock account, but also put an IP ban on him.
5. According to Dragoneer, the ONLY evidence she had that he was harassing her here was the few comments on that journal. Everything else was from other websites.
Now kindly remove your panties from your ass.
You get all my internets.
But lets say that all didn't work and this idiot made it onto my property?
*grins* that's why I have a mate that is pretty damned strong. He told one of his friends to punch him as hard as he could while he was drunk and did so... the next morning there was a patch of black where he hit him.
So yeah this turd is gone , Tarangryph I am sorry this happened to you but if someone is doing this to you.. you don't go to mods.. you go to Dragoneer immediately. It's like monopoly do not pass go do not collect 200 go right to 'Neer ;)
2. That's actually smarter in situations like this where a person is not merely being annoyed, but feels genuinely threatened and needs to allow correspondence to continue so 3rd parties can see
3. I wouldn't either, a lot of people wouldn't
4. Good? Not the point
5. I don't see why Dragoneer deserves the benefit of the doubt after the number of incidents like this, and I still haven't seen a good argument from anyone as to why this (selectively applied) policy of pretending everything off-site doesn't exist makes any sense
And then you close off with a comment that is flippant yet also sexist that gets you easy applause. Fantastic.
I don't think you understand something vital here. Think about the off-site policy like this: If I own a house and someone rents it, I'm responsible for that house. If something breaks, I send someone over to fix it, or come over and fix it myself. If that person owns a second house, I'm sure as hell not going to that OTHER house to fix something over there. Whoever owns that house has that responsibility. If FA is a house and DA is a house, Tarangryph essentially said; "Dear landlord, I have a problem at my other house, will you fix it for me?" Of course not. It's not FA's business what happens on DA, Facebook, Tumblr, Second Life, Furcadia, or anywhere other than FA. They have PLENTY of users to deal with without having to police the ENTIRE internet.
While its just speculation, I think you'll find that ANY website, especially larger ones (like DA), would have that same policy. At least Dragoneer stepped in--because on a site like DA, you certainly can't expect to see the site owner/main admin stepping up to personally research and ban someone just because the users think that they should. We're spoiled here at FA and most of us don't even realize it.
People are expecting safety to be taken seriously, for admins to have consistent policies, and for the well-being of members to be a higher priority than drama-policing (like their amorphous "calling out" rule). A little less blaming the victim wouldn't hurt either.
The off-site policy can hardly be called a policy because of how inconsistently admins will act on non-FA-born information, which has been observably the case for years. Besides there was no research required in this instance. Evidence was provided from the start of the threats being made, and that the user in question was displaying intent to continue this behaviour on FA as well.
If you called up your landlord and said "I think this man is going to break into my house and rape me, here's a recording of what he said that's making me feel so unsafe" they would say "Shit girl you should go to the police. Let me know if you need the locks changed and I'll keep an eye out for anything strange."
They wouldn't say "I'm deleting your message and warning you that this behaviour of slandering a fellow home-owner is unacceptable."
That last sentence of yours is so bootlicking it's frustrating to look at, so instead I'll just point out that the first line of your post makes you kind of a terrible person.
Read the TOS and COC. The admins followed their policies TO THE LETTER in this incident. You are the one insisting on INCONSISTENCY by saying that they should bypass their written policies when YOU think they should. Stop blaming the admins for rules that ALL of FA had the right to comment on when the policies were being framed. You are blaming the judge that is following the letter of the law when all of FA contributed to the law being made. Rail against the written policy, not the admins for following it.
2. Saying they followed the law to the letter is largely missing the point when they both removed, and failed to preserve various pieces of evidence, the absence of which they then hid behind
3. The judge doesn't write the law in real life. The FA admins decide what the law is here and there's a lot of room for interpretation even within that, especially with the ridiculous call-out policy (which was their primary defense here)
4. All of FA does comment on issues they have with site policies frequently, and doing so does not mean that the community relinquishes its right to object to how the policies are applied
5. Don't make out like this is me alone saying any of this. The system and their execution of it is clearly broken when it facilitates what just happened
2) They removed a journal that violated the CoC. The admins were still able to see the journal and associated comments as several people have already pointed out, so no evidence was deleted.
3) So what? The FA admins wrote the rules and opened them to public review and comment on the forum (a policy that I agree with as it is made to prevent harassing, flaming and bullshit drama) so if you had a problem with the "call-out" policy why didn't you speak up then? If the answer is because you hadn't thought of this circumstance, then how could the admins have foreseen it any better?
4) If the people of this site comment on the policies and the policies are adjusted to the will of the people then the admins follow the letter of the policy, it is not the admins fault for following that policy. They should be applauded for following the rules that everyone on FA had a voice in making and using those rules to resolve the situation (which resulted in the stalker being perma-banned anyway), not berated for not going vigilante and making up the rules as they go.
5) Popularity fallacy. Just because lots of people are saying it doesn't make it any more right. Lots of people can be wrong, and you are not the only one I have replied to for unjustly attacking the admins, so I am not singling you out. If you can't support your argument with evidence, only with "everyone else is doing it" then you have not shown your argument to be rational at all. Quite the contrary, you show it to be exactly what it is: emotional, not rational.
Rather than getting pissed off at admins that are just trying to do their job fairly, why not organize a group to request that the policies be changed so that such incidents can be avoided in the future. Try to improve FA rather than trying to tear it down.
Why would Fredriksam need to create a new account to continue talking to her if she never blocked him? :v
Weirdly enough, he tried to tell people on the journal that he had been arrested. Strange guy.
"Cyberstalking" is a huge issue that needs to be addressed, but as this person has not 'physically' done anything, nor can they prove one side or the other aside from photos, there is not much the police can do. Cyberstalking only becomes more serious when it usually involves a minor being stalked (under the age of 18). Adults usually are screwed over on this, pretty much.
I was being harrassed over text messages to my cell, but since the person had not done 'anything,' when I went to the police they just said 'block the person' and shrugged it off. Again, legally there is nothing the police can do.
But anyways, glad to see he got banned <3 Glad Dragoneer stepped up to the plate. :D
Dragoneer didn't "step up to the plate", the only reason action was taken was because of the significant backlash that this situation aroused.
But for christs sake.. lets say he lives in the UK. Or NY.. or somewhere where we are NEVER gonna EVER see each other.
SO!? It's only words! Just put the guy on block and move on. WHY didn't Taran EVER block this guy hmmm??
How web sites deal with cyber bullying, stalking and threats is up to them, sadly. :\ And I am aware more states are starting to cover cyberthreats. I wish ALL states would. Sadly my state was not one of those states.
i could say if in America, "I want/wish to kill the president" or "i want/wish someone to kill the president", and it will not be as serious of a case as "i will kill the president" or "i will hire someone to kill the president" which is a threat. if i remember, there have been news articles regarding arrests of citizens who've made threats to kill a president
I think, it's time I should move to a different site as well.
you are basically adding your own drama just cause you dont want to see the people your watching complain and say they want to leave.. if they want to for no matter the reason.. that is entirely there choice... you dont have to read there journal or watch them.
i can honestly say not everyone is moving cause of drama... some people literatlly just like the other site better... n again.. if you really like them.. follow them on the other site.. its not that big of a deal.. alot of the artists i like are moved over there.. n eventually i prob will to n not cause of anything going on here
The improper reaction I see so far from her and her friends is a malicious libel against the staff of this site, who do everything they can within their power to make this a better place, as volunteers who get nothing but grief for following their own rules.
I'm not saying neer should go to DA and start policing stuff there. BUT, he COULD have taken ALL evidence into account rather than just brushing it off simply because it wasn't here. Someone's presenting you with a problem, a problem that can be stopped before it gets out of hand and gives you reasons why that course of action might be the most logical, and they didn't even consider it.
And the fact that it came here, regardless of how bad someone thinks his comments were is why Neer should've been alerted. And since there's this loophole where you can easily delete things and avoid prosecution because FA doesn't allow screenshots as viable evidence it's too easy for people to come in here to do something messed up, but delete any evidence and just go "ha ha can't get me". And that's one reason alone that when presented with evidence that pointed to the fact this guy was mentally unstable and dangerous that it should be taken into account and he should've been outright banned.
Yes, she should have gone to the police, but that doesn't mean that FA couldn't further help with her feeling of security by taking EVERYTHING into account and not just brush off someone's call for help because the evidence wasn't all here. Some of it was, people forget that, he posted publicly her address, phone number, and even came on this journal and posted personal information until people told him to hide it. I'm just saying...don't blow something off just because it didn't all happen here. That would be naive and it leads to you now having to deal with the drama when all you had to do was take everything into account and used the evidence against him to determine whether or not it would've been more beneficial to allow him to come here or to just stop it outright.
Frankly, I'm tried of this journal and the affects it is having on the site where all of my friends are. I'm upset because friends are leaving over this. And I think that attacking the volunteer staff of a free site for not being wonderfully perfect human beings is about as petty as it gets.
Yes, there's always a chance that someone's lying. But that's where EVIDENCE comes into play. And seeing as screencaps aren't allowed, it's hard to stop someone here when they delete said evidence, and, as a mod said on here, they can't recover things like shouts and comments when a user deletes them. People can very well lie, but if there's adequate evidence proving that this party was indeed a mentally unstable stalker, then you can't really use that point. To throw away any evidence then say "there is none" is why this person felt like she was being ignored.
I agree, people can and will lie. And people have gotten punished for things that they didn't do. But it's harder to have that happen when there's EVIDENCE.
On top of the fact that proof WAS here, the guy commented on the initial journal admitting to his actions and telling her she shouldn't care about it because it made her more famous. But the journal was deleted without taking the TT into consideration or taking into account this may be a viable cause for concern.
Some sites have the right idea, however. And that idea is that no content is to ever be deleted.
But I'm just not about to sit here and say the admins were completely innocent in using a technicality to not get involved.
Ugh...
If you don't know what you're talking about or who these people are you need to gtfo and stop commenting on everything.
This slander is actually breaking the rules, and this journal needs to be updated with an apology towards the staff of FA for perpetuating this drama and feeding misinformation to the masses.
And for the record, the stalker was actually caught and banned the moment proof was provided.
If you're reading this, compile a log of any and all interactions the stalker has made to you, and take it to either your local police department (or contact his if you know what it is), track down your local FBI field office, or get in touch with an internet harassment watch group for further assistance
I don't know if the I3C handles cyberstalking as well as internet fraud but here's the link just in case: http://www.ic3.gov/default.aspx
The issue is actually currently resolved, because the offender made the mistake of creating a new account and harassing the victim again.
Just delete the problem and hope it goes away. There's WOW or Everquest waiting for us just over there.
Ugh.
What pissed her off about the admins and FA happened a few months ago to her, not to someone else. So, no. My gf could not have been misinformed about something that happened to her involving the administration of this site.
I am defending the people who make this fun and very social fandom site possible.
And this is why arguments frequently erupt between users on this site. Either one party does not thoroughly understand what the other means, or both don't understand what each is saying to the other. And I'm guilty of having doing that as well in the past, so I'm not perfect.
You know, now I think I know sort of what my gf does when she does her "unofficial" work as a therapist for free. Guess part of her has rubbed off onto me over the last 5 years.
Best wishes to your friend, Exodus.
Pardon me, but what am I missing here?!
I noticed that tarangryph had made a journal naming fredericksam as stalking her by name. I took the normal action of deleting this journal
Instead, it seems that tarangryph and qarrezel have assumed that we deleted the journal and never intended to consider suspending fredericksam, or even that we deleted the journal only because she is female.
So yes, it was deleted by staff, though supposedly still "preserved" in the site records.
Because of their lack of speed when it comes to reading/answering tickets, they failed to realize that the journal was a justified part of something else much bigger going on here.
That journal was supposedly the only evidence, especially when the submissions were erased. Can't submit screenshots, those aren't accepted here.
Yep.
Posting a personal, accusatory journal on your furry page instead makes it seem very much like you are not actually in fear for your life. Which in turn makes it seem as though you might be lying. And even if the admins personally believe what you are saying, they can't conscientiously leave something like that up without evidence, because if it turns out to be wrong that's something the site could be sued over. The mods acted appropriately because, instead of pursuing a course of action actually meant to stop the harassment, the victim in this case made things worse by trying to make it a public spectacle (mission accomplished on that end I guess).
Such is life on FA, the drama capital of the interwebs. I still stand by my statement that nobody should be getting up in arms about this story in the first place, unless they know the truth first-hand and not through a recirculated journal. But even if it all went down exactly like that journal says, it seems like the admins handled it right. Now that the facts are evidently known, the victim has no restrictions on her account and the stalker is banned. Order is seemingly restored to the universe.
Oh, but of course, people are still upset because the admins didn't IMMEDIATELY assume the journal to be truthful, and blindly ban the accused member without looking into things first. Give me a break. People in positions of authority don't just give someone the benefit of the doubt because they're your BFF. That's not how the world works. And if someone posted a journal tomorrow, accusing you of something tremendously serious, you'd be glad that the staff doesn't let that fly without hard evidence.
They can't just ban people if they don't have good enough proof.
This ''Mass Exodus'' isn't going to work. A few hundreds are going to follow, maybe?
Sure, there's been some bad decisions from the FA administration in the past, but they are human as much as we are
and people should probably stop reacting like this whenever this happens.
FA admins are not babysitters/caretakers.
If she was genuinely scared, why didn't she even block him on FA?
And they did ban him as soon as they had evidence.
Let's not turn this into a debate.
I'm not moving from FA; that's just silly.
Nothing says I can't have both.
Actually it's twice I've seen people get called scum for not wanting to put up with the cub porn and choosing to quietly leave instead of crusade against it. :/
I see a lot of people shitting on 'Neer and his admins.
You don't like it? go somewhere else, or hell, make your own site. I bet it isn't as easy as you think.
Do I think they handled it 100% properly? No. I have no fight for either side, I am trying to look at this as an outside observer.
But it is a lot of work to run this place, they work hard so we can all fap to our furry porn. (You know you do, admit it)
Yeah, there were problems from several sides here, but:
1. We all have some pretty strong opinions when we have NO idea about the full story behind this.
2. The person has been banned and unfortunately the OP is gone and will probably not come back.
So it's over... can we please get back to enjoying this FREE site that people work hard to run for us?
Its a shame that the OP feels that they need to leave and go to another site, but that is their right. If they want to.
What I am saying is that there are so many people here saying that this site is bad and the admins are bad.. and to them I say, you dont like it, leave as well, or try to make your own site. I bet it isn't as easy as you think. Look at all the furry site that are long gone.
It's not a matter of 100% properly...it's a matter of this one being handled 100% wrong
On your own numbers -
1) Hard to see the whole story when parts that were public were deleted by admins
2) Suspended does not equal banned.
It being a free site does not mean that people cannot expect things to be handled correctly. Some of the biggest issues with the way Dragoneer/FA handle things is...they do things, then defend them til the end as the 'right thing' even when they're wrong. Or at least until they realize that just saying they're right won't make it so and won't make the issue go away. Far too often, it seems that the 'hard work' you mention is focused not on improving and not on making things better.
Some admins have stated that the guy would have been banned if he'd made accounts to bypass the block. He did. What happened? Temp suspension. Wonderful action there, eh? Coupled with the guy admitting on Taran's own journal, which was deleted, that he had been stalking them...just...
People see this...are upset how this was handled. If you are not one of those, then...I'm sorry. Others will need to vent about this...and for many replying to this journal, that venting is also including departing FA.
And once again I say that no one here knows all the facts and there are A LOT of assumptions by a lot of people here on what did or did not happen.
Hey, if people want to leave, that is their right, but I see a lot of people complaining about the admins that most likely will not leave.
As for the black/white nature of the 100% wrong. Sorry...everything I've read, from Q, from the admins both here and elsewhere...that all let me to that summary. Maybe you haven't read it all (it is a lot), maybe you read it differently. I dunno.
I know I haven't read anything, and 99.999% of the people commenting on here have not either.. that is why it is most certainly NOT a black white 100% issue.
Murder is bad. Rape is bad. Pedophilia is bad. Zoophilia is bad. Stalking and sexual harassment is bad. I have been following the whole drama for a longer time, saw the original BLEEPING deleted journal and comments on it, including both parties, and there is no doubt that this is a case of a mentally disturbed male stalker versus a female victim of said stalking and harassment. There is no doubt which side the admin staff should take.
And they took the exactly opposite one.
Having seen the original journal, you are ahead of probably 90% of the people on here, including me. But that doesn't mean that even reading that you know everything that is going on, even if you do know more than most of us.
Again, that the person doing the stalking has problems is not an issue, but what is the issue is how everyone seems to think they know how it should have been handled, when all the facts are not know.
People are very quick to throw blame to the admins, when they have no idea what they were doing behind the scenes. Again I say that I am not saying that they handled it 100% correctly, but they tried to do what they could.
http://help.furaffinity.net/article.....nduct-COC.html
THIS.
This so much.
I think 'Neer should have...idk...left the evidence there so that when she attempted to file the police report-- It would still be present on the website and not only exist within screen-shots which would help her case. :/
At this point-- since it's happening on more than one site...I personally wouldn't want someone like that running loose on my site who hard-core stalks people like that. o___o But hey-- it's not my site...>___>;;
But yeah...In a case like this..where there was some form of evidence WITHIN the accused journal...This...is one of those blind-spots where It would probably have been better to leave up...at least until this chick could have filed a police report with it as an example...xD
TL;DR: Stalking >>> Call-Out Journal; The call out journal was the lesser of two evils here.
BUT...I digrees. What's done is done. :/ I hope she gets this creeper off her back.
I also remember fredriksam posting a few stolen images in his gallery before the removed journal, including one titled "Tarangryph human face" which is *kind of* a creepy thing to have a picture titled when you add in the other evidence. That and the other images he had up were removed after he was warned by Taran and others about them.
The things people have said to the site owner and a lot of the users posting here are just abhorred. They feel it's wrong for a popufur's friend to be harassed, but think it'a a-ok to harass other people instead because those people didn't follow the flock... or because they didn't agree with their opinion.
What if they were lying?
What if someone posted a journal about you claiming you were stalking them, harassing them, whatever, with real (or fabricated) evidence, when you weren't? Well now your reputation just got dragged through the mud.
This is why FA doesn't allow insulting or "call out" journals.
This user needed to go through the proper channels. They were impatient and broke the rules. Then they cry foul after the rules are enforced making it out like the mods are trying to suppress them when they just did their jobs. FA is not supporting stalkers. There is no grand problem that requires a site exodus. Give me a break.
For one, the perpetrator did admit to the deed and then made excuses for himself on that journal, all the while bragging about how it made her "famous".
It's a very sketch situation, but the moderators, in my belief, could have done better in handling the situation.
I can't really make a big judgement call on this due to the lack of real, solid facts, since I have no idea what the moderators did, whether or not they were communicating with her or if they notified her that they were going to delete the journal, or if they were meditating the situation properly, but the fact remains that the moderators did not do a good enough job to make her feel secure on the website even though she didn't follow the rules down to the very dot.
There are two jobs that a moderator or even a police officer should do: one is to enforce the rules or law, the other is to provide a feeling of security to those they protect. Failing to do the latter will make things seem like a police state.
"Threatened" and "Betrayed" are being thrown around.
I'm sure they still don't think the call-out journal broke any rules because *this time* it was for a good purpose.
The main issue, however, right now is not what's being said of the moderators but about their conduct regarding this entire cascade of events. Certainly, the moderators are not condoning the stalker in this instance, but it doesn't change the fact that these people are raising a legitimate concern about how the moderators have dealt with the situation.
Also, avoid assumptions like that. That's not too far away from the statements where others assume the moderators "support stalkers and are punishing the victims".
Thing is, talking about "the moderators" is pointless in this case, because people really have a problem with two people - the mod who originally took action, and Dragoneer's original follow up. Every other mod had nothing to do with anything here.
Anyways, I'm going to stop here. See ya.
Of course, that doesn't stop people from jumping the gun with "The system is broken! Everyone leave! The mods hate women! The mods protect stalkers!" posts like this. Jumping the gun would have been banning some person because someone says they harassed them without taking the time for due process, which is what everyone seems to expect to happen.
Anyways, I know you're arguing for what you think is right, but it's not exactly good to go on about this. It's certainly not helping your position or others.
I think I'll finish this up with this - why is it you never see a journal describe when the mods do something right? It surely happens from time to time. The reason why that doesn't happen is the reason journals like this exist.
Not sure if serious or trolling.
Note: The lag on FA is making me post the same comment several times, so don't mind the deletes and reposts.
Um, that wasn't even part of the argument if I didn't make it evident earlier.I never did say your logical fallacies made your points invalid I was just pointing out your logical fallacies.
Oh well, I hope you get it eventually. Twisting arguments like that doesn't do much for you :/
My biggest problem about this is the double standards held for popufurs and their friends, while the more "regular" users of this website appear to be more or less neglected when it comes to harassment (It may not be intentional. Who knows?).
Everyone's sitting here like we're all saying the admins condone this activity for a fact. We're just saying the way they handled things MADE THEM LOOK THAT WAY. Which is why it should've been handled differently.
This post...i love you for it.
What I find completely unacceptable is taking the side of a stalker in a stalker vs. victim conflict, and justifying it by legal technicalities.
I hope more people will see it.
my mother, stepfather, and brother used to do the same stuff to me, they made accounts just to say how much of a faggot I am
[quote] Dragoneer: "I don't feel it's something to leave FA over, as if it happened on FA, it will happen on /any/ site...I'll respect that." [quote]
As I must say first, I respect all the admins and such with great deed because I know how much hard work they put into this site (minus the people who don't know what they are talking about when it comes to the staffs quality of work).
First off, what this admin has done (and I very hope that they saved the journal entry) is illegal, IF, this is situation is going into court.
I would suspect that the artist will contact police about this stalking and file for a restraining order. Thus, the journal entry could be very useful in court to show psychological impact that the artist is feeling from this harassment.
Second, I'm kinda speechless that Dragoneer did not really think this situation out very clearly.
Such harassment cases (tickets) should be stored and all evidence from it should be stored. That way, in-case of a court order (warrant), they can supply the evidence.
From what I have read from the journal (and three other journals) the FA staff has done wrong. And I do hope that they do not get stuck into this problem if this situation goes to court.
Because this deboical could in fact land FA with some "legal fees".
Also...screw weasyl... to complex for my taste :P
After about 3 months of getting nothing in return, but more people harassing me, because they thought it was FUNNY, I left FA. I finally came back though, and I made a new account, new character, and just decided to ignore everything.
Unfortunately I no longer go to furmeets, I no longer associate myself as a "furry", and I only do art because I'm bored with everything else.
I'm a raver now, and 99% of my friends I met at raves in the past 8 or so months.
In all honesty, the furry community in the past 5 or so years (at least since I've joined it) has gone from a bunch of original, cool, artistic people, to just, rude, pushover people with black and grey maned wolves as their character. If you're at all different, people say your character looks like shite.
"Oh, you decided to be original and create and Acid born mutant thing as a character? YOUR CHARACTER IS UGLY!!" is basically what it has turned to.
I'm so disappointed in the fandom, that in the past few months, I've just quite frankly given up on trying to do art for other people. I've done 10 - 20 beautiful drawings in the past month, but have only posted a couple of them on here, I find there's no point in posting art to a group of people who have no appreciation for originality and just want to see the big name pronz that get posted on here, so they go and bad mouth you publicly on your more original style'd art if you don't trace the image style of somebody with 10k viewers.
Just my 2 cents being tossed into the pile.
I'm so sorry that you had to go through that shit too. It's really a horrible experience.
I still remember every person who harassed me on FA and the forums.
Or for making most of the people jump ship.
Blocking doesn't really do shit, believe me i know. They can still favorite and see everything you do, and post your art, altered or not and all kinds of shit to work around it. They can still fuck up your life, without directly shouting or commenting.
She came to you, afraid, with the evidence, and reaching out for help and the admins involved did take the wrong action.
I'm ashamed, and honestly really thinking of leaving, even if this is my only income, i'd rather live on the street then support anything like this again.
There is an addon called FurAffinity Filter or something. It lets you block by username, and also lets you use filters for stuff you see here.
You can't see their comments, submissions and pretty much their whole existence. It helped me tons regarding a stalker I had, who left really mean comments on other people's art for me.
I had someone blocked with FA, and good heavens, its useless.
There is no need to leave shouts or comments on your page...they can use other people's page. They can favorite stuff, see your art, and what not. They can even make mean comments towards you, and you can't report them because they can be really ambiguous and make you look like a paranoid (something that happened to me a lot with a stalker I had)
MADNESS!?
THIS.
IS.
FURRYDRAMA!
Some of you should be ashamed of yourselves, namely those who blindly defend FA and the staff. The rest who have cool or hot headed responses who speak their minds are well I suppose.
I can barely tolerate some staff members on this site, most others I can and very few I actually can relate to and like (IE Kryphos)
I've been away, looking after a little hatchling that has just come out of ICU, thus have prioritized my time. Sadly that meant I was not here to help out and offer help where I could. (Those that know me know I refute drama in all forms, often sorting out issues relating to such, with a sympathetic ear)
I joined up to help make a difference and bring some of my knowledge to help everyone in the community. I'm not here for the 'fame' nor am I 'popular' in any way!
Let's take emotions out of the equation, deal with this rationally, and hopefully sort it out for all concerned.
That said, I made a journal with feelings about the situation itself, though I'll summarize it here:
- People overreacted.
- Neer should have kept quiet until he had a chance to dig deep into the problem instead of speaking up before he knew everything (Aside: Admittedly, him saying "things that happen offsite aren't our problem" was slightly hypocritical after experiencing the Chewfox incident... and the WYS forums days).
- Qoph shouldn't have taken down the journal, much less without saying a word to Taran. That could be seen as potential evidence removal or tampering had it been used in court.
- The staff needs tools to keep the other mods and admins in the loop about everything happening with trouble tickets.
I definitely don't blame you for the incident, but I think Neer and Qoph need to learn from this incident, and Neer needs to get someone to code a real trouble ticket system. One that's more like a bug tracker, capable of documenting everything done to solve the ticket while it's being taken care of.
There are things in the works... its just moving along a little slow...
To admins, like any organization, if thee does not want to be tarred, I'd suggest resign your position. If this was a professional organisation, people would be fired/disciplined and held to account. This is inexcusable, mis-sight or otherwise, this could have been avoided if a iota of intelligence was employed.
History has shown that resigning doesn't actually fix the issue in the first place! I'd rather stay here, try to help as much as possible so this will not happen again, instead of just quitting.
Forums with such large user bases will experience issues no matter what, since they have the general public using it. (History has also shown common sense is not that common) Valid complaints accepted, though the signal to noise ratio of the 'Me too!' brigade always comes to light from those with an axe to grind. (This is coming from administering another forum with over half a million users, and what I've seen here)
Anyways isn't there like a block person list she could use?
And my Device get hot as fuch when I qm on this page.
also blocking is useless when they make more accounts and and post their personal information EVERYWHERE. :c
Oh! Boo hoo! They deleted a journal where the poster violated the ToS instead of waiting on a trouble ticket to be responded to. Oh my gosh. That is such a blow!
And no. He punished the victim because she harassed someone and broke the sites rules. Stalking someone and posting their info that happens on ANOTHER site is not against the rules of FA. If it happens at FA (which it eventually did) then he would of been punished first, and her journal would of STILL been deleted.
The person is banned now, and they are on the hunt from the admins. Why bother feeling there was still unjust done?
Of course this was before they banned the person.
I admit I do still worry for the lady, as there's so many places out there and such.
Just as long as we can get understanding, thats all I care about, not taking sides, just using clarity in a shit storm of a situation :)
But it's always been known that FA doesn't always house the sharpest knives in the box...
The admins were following the TOS and COC of this site. In it, it specifically states:
"DO NOT Harass Other Users - Please refrain from harassing, targeting or spamming other users of the site, or encouraging others to do so by proxy. Fur Affinity strives to allow users freedom of expression, but asks users refrain from making comments, journals, statements or from posting material which is racist, bigoted, offensively targets a philosophy, religion, gender or sexual preference. Comments which are overly aggressive, threatening, personally insulting or needlessly abusive are likewise prohibited. Disruptive behavior or mob tactics meant to interfere with the normal flow of the community will be met with zero tolerance.
By posting a public journal identifying the person accused of harassment, the victim of the harassment was breaking this policy! That is why the Journal was deleted. As for the other user. Again, FA was following its own WRITTEN policies. If you have a problem with that, this is not the fault of the administrators, but of the policy. Policy that the site admins ask for user feedback on. Blaming the administrators would be like blaming a judge for enforcing the letter of a fucked up law that the citizens voted for. If you think the policy needs changing, then THAT is what you need to rail against, not the admins for following it when they have caught holy hell from users for acting outside those policies in the past (many such incidents are mentioned above by people saying the admins didn't act even though the admins, who had been backlogged, have since taken action and perma-banned the stalker).
For the times that the admins are guilty of not following their own rules and people accuse them of favoritism, I get pissed at them for that. I think it is both sad and pathetic to see people turning against the admins when they follow the rules to the letter.
FAs cyber-stalking policy needs changing such that if a user makes contact with someone on FA that they are stalking (on or off site), they will be banned, but until the policy is changed, blaming the admins and saying they should go above the law to ban-hammer someone even when they have not clearly violated site rules is just lynch-mob mentality.
1. admins can see journals even if they are deleted so...I don't know why everyone's in a hissy about "deleting evidence". The evidence is under the eyes of the appropriate people to view it and make decisions for the website upon it.
2. harassment is a tough issue that needs to be handled without any rash decisions. I think the admins were doing their best to follow protocol.
3. Tough issues will always leave people unhappy. it's a fact.
4. your friend could have filed a harassment ticket and got in contact with admins on the website before posting the said journal to discuss a better way of addressing the issue publicly.
The admins aren't dicks. They are a bunch of people who volunteer their time for this place. They might be slow about things, but they do take serious issues seriously. They just have to dance around the protocols that every administration dealing with people has to do. I would know...I work in a school. This whole thing reminds me of all the crap my principal has to deal with when a couple of parents get upset about a decision he's made.
Is it always ethical? Will it please everyone?....nope. But they try.
I'll see you on weasyl :) best wishes for your friend
There's so much needless drama today.
If everyone just stopped to think about this instead of letting their emotions getting the better of them..
In any case, thanks for this comment.
If there was a "like" system for comments, you'd get my mine.
The stalker had posted several replies, within the very journal that was deleted, so proof of harassment were evident, right in front of the eyes of the admins who deleted the journal.
You're speaking as if you know about the issue, but you weren't there to see the journal.
Also, it does not only deal with Taran and the admins. If you read Taran's journal, you will know that the journal in question was to warn other furries about this guy, because this guy is likely to stalk other furries as well, especially if they own a Clockwork suit.
I live 60 minutes away from the stalker, and I have seen him around on other places, and I am damn thankful that there are journals out to warn people about him.
Taran has done everything right.
I won't intervene, even though I could. I know where the stalker lives, I know which building he lives in, I know his phone number. I know how he looks. I could drive there right now, and in 60 minutes from now, I could punch his face in. But that won't accomplish anything. I leave it up to the authorities.
I have nothing more to say on this matter right now. I've got to go eat breakfast now. It's nearly noon.
It's also impossible to prevent someone from viewing your page on the internet. All the blocked person needs to do is... to sign out of their account.
Had the victim did what staff suggested to do in the first place (block at least one of the accounts he was using to contact her), perhaps the admins initial reaction to the journal could have been different. She skipped one simple trivial thing- something people overlook because they feel it won't help. But it does. It is also a piece of evidence that wasn't present in this issue. Proof of trying to protect herself. (this is information is what I gathered from both user and admin comments)
I'm speaking because I have been in an administrative position on a website before. I've seen the good, the bad and the really ugly. The ugliest comes from one little mistake that snowballs into something massive.
The issue is now being looked into like it should have from the start so I have no further comments. I can only wish the best for all involved in the issue and pray that it gets resolved. I'm happy to see her make the decision to leave this site for her safety.
If a user is posting your real name, and your address, on a website, do you block the user, so that you can't see what the user is posting? If someone is spreading your information, the least thing you want to do is block them. On the contrary, you want to see everything that they post about you, so you can stop it and try to have it removed. Blocking solves nothing in this case.
But yes, it is good that they are finally looking into it now... but they should have had some kind of communication with Taran, when they first deleted her journal, so as not to leave her in the dark.
Let the community vote on the issue at hand, and i believe the result will be obvious.
http://faleaks.malicelabs.com/index.....&action=to
Would you like some lube, FA?
You're probably running low seeing as how many users you fuck.
And it wasn't because you left the site. Infact, I'm pretty sure we'd be better off if you didn't return.
But because at the end of the day, due process is not only a process, but it takes time.
We can't just have the person who can shout to the loudest, to the most people, making all the judgement calls. Cooler heads have to prevail.
Which aren't yours.
Happy trails,
see you space cowboy.
But if people that want to leave decide to leave, that's their own choice! They have no obligation to stay, and being vocal for/against it is a perfectly valid thing to do since it alerts their followers so that they have a heads-up on if new updates from them are happening here or elsewhere. Unless it's affecting precious four/five-digit watcher counts of some people. But hey, they'll have to keep a cool head about it since it's not my problem.
They're gonna carry that weight.
(It's close enough to the phrase, shhh)
Besides, change is nice sometimes, or people would still be using Myspace! Or Netscape Navigator. Or AOL. Or typewriters. Or viking ships with badass gods leading them along towards more pillaging and setting anything even slightly burnable on fire.
I want a viking ship.
I just found out that
And for some reason I find the idea of reading them all funny.
A closer investigation of both sides of this incident will reveal that the administrators were given absolutely no information that this person was causing harassment on FurAffinity. The journal only mentioned that he was doing such things on DeviantArt and some Swedish forum. This was out of the scope for the administrators to take action.
If you're going to leave FA, you should do so because everyone is a damn sheep and too lazy to get both sides of a story, not because the administrators were doing their jobs.
The journal was removed because name-dropping in a harassment case, regardless of what that case may be, is not allowed.
Pot calling the kettle black, but this whole read, to me at least, coulda been solved easier with more direct communication.
Also, sure FA is a bit barebone'd, but those fellas leaving to Weasyl shouldn't feel justified in their move. It's like saying you're gonna move outta your home town because one out of hundreds of thousands of people got their homes robbed or vandalized. It happens, and it's a shame, but it doesn't merit throwing down in frustration and storming off.
I get that it's your choice, but it's highly irrational logic. Weigh the perks, people.
This is more like moving because your landlord refuses to change locks/evict someone who gets into other people's apartments/houses because he has copies of all the keys...and the landlord's reasoning is he searched the accused person's apartment...and despite pictures of him IN the windows of other people's apartments doing things...he says he can't do anything because he can't find the copies of the keys this guy has...and the pictures were taken outside of the apartment building...and could in some convoluted way be forged.
Also - yes...there are cities people are quite happy to move out of due to high criminal activity in them due to how badly they're run...(police/mayor/etc).
The bottom like is we know what happened sucked, and some people will find an excuse to make a change, regardless of how dissociated it is to their personal being. My opinion is I just feel it's silly to jump the gun over one incident.
Now, I wasn't around on this site during the occurances of the other incidences, but I am admittedly shaken up by these actions. I had a friend who was in a similar situation that ended in her being /raped/ when the people in charge did nothing. The two situations are a bit different but it angers me to see that yet again, a place that should be safe is torn down and wrecked and screwed over :/ Given the history of incidences like this on this site, I really don't wanna stay around here, because, what if it happens to me ? I already know there's nobody that I can turn to here that can do something, and as such I personally think it would be better for me to try out weasyl, which seems like a safer community. Now I understand that something like that could happen on Weasyl, too, but I have faith that the people in charge there will get something done.
and also, no, the friend of mine who was raped was not stalked through this site or by a furry, I'm just saying, I've seen similar situations occur and it gets me very angry, because what if that person had gotten to the young lady this journal is about, and actually done something. Maybe she was scared to contact authorities, and the one time to she went to someone who could potentially help she got shot down. I look at this situation as an "oh my god, if the outrage over this hadn't happened, he could've hurt her in more ways than one" and that really gets me mad.
Have fun with your crusade then.
You have no idea who Q is, right?
They are willing to condone harassment and exploitation, and in doing so, they encourage this behavior.
Is like saying
"because you are not actively stopping people getting raped you are ENCOURAGING RAPING"
Wow dog you are seriously messed up please be gone
Step 1: Comment that someone is writing like a fucking crazy person
Step 2: Write like a fucking crazy person
...huh. That doesn't seem like it'd work very well. Try adding some cilantro next time.
1) im not tryin 2 b persuasive im pointing out how rediculous some shit is
2) jump int a pit of angry vipers that are made of fire
btw thats not a threat its just a suggestion u dont have to do that if u dont want
A: Some people are being ridiculous here and there, but it's not good to downplay every serious issue that happens in life. Drama happens sometimes and things will get vented out, it's basic human nature.
B: You're free to ignore the issue, but knee-jerk reactions are getting a bit redundant to read.
C: FIRE VIPERS ARE NOT MADE OUT OF GODDAMN CILANTRO NOW THROW IT OUT AND MAKE IT AGAIN.
D: Richard Nixon
If i ever find myself feeling like my well being and safety rests in the hands of a furry porn site moderator and not in the hands of myself the police and government?
I will be questioning my life very fucking hard.
Pretty much that, lol.
'SCREENCAPPED! For my own protection!!!! I dont want banned for stating my feeling on this issue. As well as giving you INFO for your own PROTECTION.
Natural selection at best, I'd say. And good riddance.
>_>
Not done reading it yet, but my faith in FA is being restored.
the suspect is gone (at least on FA)
so, where is the issue?
The staff can and WILL ban people for offsite comments.
http://forgethewielder.tumblr.com/p.....for-comments-i
They just don't care if it's not happening to them personally.
It's actually rather simple. It's just a different rule.
Actively encouraging malicious behavior towards the site using someone's own, considerably large fanbase as leverage is exactly the kind of thing that happened no less then 24 hours ago, and while one may doubt or reinforce their belief that Qarrezel's motives to be just and their intentions good, there is no such benefit in Wielder's posts; which are clearly defined and leave no room for misinterpretation.
You do not sick your followers on others, you just don't. It's a lose-lose situation regardless whether you were right or wrong in the end. You just hurt your own image in different ways and still come off looking manipulative; intentionally or not; while your fanbase ends up looking silly.
Need the lesson seriously be repeated that soon?
Heat of the moment, personal dislike towards one another. That's completely fine. Nothing says all people need to get along. But remember that it's still just a one guy vs. another problem.
By encouraging people to disrupt the activity of the entire website one is effectively escalating it to one guy and his issues vs. the entire website with hundreds of thousand people who have no part in any of this.
Isn't that kind of an extremely douchebag thing to do, regardless of how strongly one feels about their opinion? What have those people ever done to them? At what point does one feel justified attacking other people's social networks and even businesses; just because they disagree with the person running an establishment?
Moving away from that and more closely to thewielder.
The user has a long history of uncalled for verbal abuse towards the both the staff and other users on FA he disagreed with, and several accounts of requesting their fans to flood and troll other user's pages for various reasons one of which was for reporting something on their account.
They, on numerous occasions, made it clear and known to everyone of them leaving FA for greener pastures, yet instead of abandoning their account and moving on they stuck around, for seemingly nothing other than bashing the site staff every time such opportunity arose.
Were it targeted at any other other user they would have been long since banned, but bashing the staff is okay because.... they deserved it? Is all that hate just him speaking the truth and hey since it's the truth you can't ban for it right?
Apples to oranges, enough is enough.
The account of requesting and encouraging, yet again, other people to disrupt the website and the service it is providing to 779,902 other people alone is enough to warrant a permanent suspension.
It's not like they haven't moved to other websites already, so this should not be a big deal.
Second, we are not saying that we never act upon off-site information. In the cases that off-site information can affect your FA account, there must be a demonstrable link between the off-site information and something that affects FA as a whole. The common examples are cub/child porn submissions, and underage users viewing adult material. In either case, if you have information off-site which contradicts what you've provided here, we will take down submissions or apply an age lock, respectively, in order to avoid potential legal action against the site. Similarly, wiith regards to thewielder, the tweets which prompted the ban threatened the site as a whole, prompting action on our part.
Hope you get lots of seconds in the spotlight for this fail.
btw expect plenty ((no spam)) of comments and stuff ive been away from fa for far to long
Friend of mine got a warning from a mod/admin "You have non-furry pics on your gallery. Pelase remove."
He sent an angry compalin about that, because nearly everyone, EVERYONE in FA has "non-furry -pictures" and they have not got any troubles from those. Why just he?
Suddenly he got banned because he "did not obey the admin/mod request to removing the pictures".
Just look others FA Account. Almost everyone has "non-furry" pics on their gallery. And have they got suspended? Nope...
It's like he was deliberately targeted by a troll user who informed his account for having "non furry content" to admin/mod for getting suspended. And the troll succeeded...
First suspended, and then banned only because he had some pictures of his car on FA Gallery?
That is just TOTALLY pathetic move from mods.
I have no respect for FA admins/mods after that incident...
FA administration is corrupt. This site is so old and out of date, it's time to give up and shut the site down so new places can grow.
I know because the same thing has happened to me. I've reported individuals for harassing and bullying me; I was the one punished instead while they got off scot-free.
Anyone who is smart needs to leave FurAffinity. The people who stay on here - well, I'd say they need a lobotomy, but they already act like they are brainless.
There have been several times that a mass exodus was a good thing to do. I have mixed feelings about what
There are two dangerous lines of thought:
1. Post everything online-
In this case, a person puts themselves out there for job marketing and sometimes they belittle others for becoming offended when a corporation takes away their privacy, their anonymity.
2. Overbearing censorship-
If it isn't politically correct, the offender is banned or otherwise squelched; but not before a cowardly party bashes the offender online as with torches and pitchforks. The offender can't defend themselves as they lose access to their account. They aren't given a chance to repent, if needed.
I'm not defending
Unfortunately, I've only known those who would prefer that no one have anonymity; where invasion of privacy is made all too easy and a red line between acceptable usage of info and violation is thinning too much. The world wide web should not be a place to roam in fear, but it should be a place where people can conduct themselves properly and have proper moderation. I believe this is a case where those in authority should've 'locked down' the offending account and 'modify the account to publicize the offense and reason for administrative action. Locking the user out of their account preserves the info for on-going investigations and prevents the privacy violator from erasing the evidence, while admin can still be contacted via e-mail for further discussion. That's how I would moderate the situation, but I'm not the admin here on FA.
I believe the situation described in this journal should behoove people to judge whether they are too open to the 'net, or too restrictive of the 'net.
Well said.