Safest option moving forward 👍🏻

Gonna throw this out there, but more artists do need to do this. It's an excellent idea since minors try to buy nsfw almost all the time.

Just going to say this and I don't mean it disrespectfully.

I am 28 years old, and would refuse to show ID to any private parties for a few reasons. The main one being I refuse to dox myself. The thought of sharing something that shows my full legal name, birth date, home address, and other identifiable information online sounds like a terrible idea. Big companies have data breaches all the time, and trusting someone with super personal info is never a good idea. Not to mention peoples personal info is highly valuable to spammers and advertisers.

That all said I completely understand not wanting minors to see NSFW art for morality reasons. Exploitation of minors is a horrible thing and is a whole other problem. Anyone suppling NSFW works to children knowingly does so should be charged.

Moving on from that I just want to say as a content creator I feel that it is important to take steps to mitigate -18 peoples from seeing anything that is intended for adults only. We have laws for that, but those very laws can be easily circumvented sadly. Look at minors drinking and doing drugs for example. You are supposed to show ID to anyone selling alcohol, but you have to ask how then are minors getting their hands on it? Well there are a number of ways I won't go into incase any minors read this, but yeah it is not that hard to circumvent things if you are even slightly intelligent.

Ok doom and gloom aside what do I really think could be done? Well honestly not a whole lot like the war on drugs where there is a demand a supply chain will pop up, and people will find ways around bans. Look back at the 80's memes where the teen would take a parents credit card, and call NSFW phone services. Whos fault was that and who is to blame? Well the parents are to blame they should be paying more attention to their children. Same thing with kids that manage to do drugs or drink. So often parents allow the TV to be the babysitter, and now a days the computer, smartphone, or tablet.

I fully believe the anger and blame should be placed on the neglectful parents. I mean really what parent in their right mind would allow a minor to use the internet unsupervised? Even if that meant using fun tools like your browsers history I mean that ain't hard, or having your kid turn over their device for periodic inspections. Before anyone says that would be to draconian isn't it more so to ask grown adults for their personal info?

It shouldn't be the job of content creators to make 100% sure no minors find their 18+ content or else. We have systems in place like registration for websites that ask for your DOB already, and if minors lie they get punished by being banned. Is that perfect? No of course not, but it is better than having a database on everyone that likes embarrassing things. Could you imagine being an "important" person in some compony and having it leaked that you like furry porn and here is your name and home address? People don't use their real names online for a reason.

Yes I know no one is really anonymous online I mean the big scary dark web was made by the US government, bitcoin can be easily tracked exct, but I urge people to no just give up their personal info to anyone who ask for it.

>I am 28 years old, and would refuse to show ID to any private parties for a few reasons. The main one being I refuse to dox myself. The thought of sharing something that shows my full legal name, birth date, home address, and other identifiable information online sounds like a terrible idea. Big companies have data breaches all the time, and trusting someone with super personal info is never a good idea. Not to mention peoples personal info is highly valuable to spammers and advertisers.

For one: I respect that choice to not want to show id.
Secondly when I verify I basically allow people to black out anything they want on the ID as long as I can see their face and their DOB, and a selfie of them holding up that same id to verify they're the one who owns it (sometimes with a custom note i made up on the spot to verify the photo is recent and thus def them). I know its really really dangerous to show full id online so i dont ask for it.

Whilst yes, it *is* the parent's fault. Kids are smarter than most give them credit for. Idiots who get into dangerous situations. But sometimes managing a very resourceful and very crafty kid is a fucking nightmare. You'd have to monitor their every move online 24/7 and that can be a LOT for overworked parents as it is. You'd have to be offensively controlling to a kid to keep such a strong eye on them and their actions.

We also often fail to appreciate *just how fucking horny teenagers are*. They WILL find ways to access adult content. And honestly i dont even have an issue with that. Its when they start interacting with adults to get it, because it puts them at risk and cause it puts them at risk it puts people like *me* at risk when parents are much more eager to blame us than their kid when we had no idea what was going on.
There severely needs to be some kind of rebalance here so more people look at the full situation and accept that not everything is the same horrific story of a poor innocent child getting groomed online.
sometimes its a horny teen dming an oblivious furry artist for porn and getting it

I dont know HOW to fix that issue but for now i'm covering my own ass even if it means losing customers who are rightfully wary to give share information like that.
also no offence but we generally get your name and address from paypal anyway

Fair enough there but even showing a face can lead to ridicule by people that may know the person. I typically get SFW works and am not into NSFW, but even those I don't tied to me IRL. That said artist have to right to ask for, or refuse service to whoever they want.

Again I do agree, and a lot of older parents, and people in general probably don't even know what browser history is for example or cookies exct. I just think all we can do is trust the sites to an extent. If FA for example knows someone lied about their age they get banned, and I think it is our responsibility to report minors favoriting NSFW art, or trying to commission such works, and even trying to RP NSFW themes.

You have a point there, and I do agree there. also again I do know what you mean it is easier to point the finger than take responsibility. You know you aren't wrong.

Fair end neither do I honestly, and truthfully I cant be upset with you for that. Oh no you are 100% right on the money and that was my point I made about crypto even. With even bitcoin it is tied to a wallet registered to you, and every transaction is logged so claiming you are anonymous yeah not really.

I have to say your arguments were reasonable I just want the internet to remain as anonymous as it is. Mostly so we don't have to share legal names and personal documents. What should be done idk. I mean again parents shouldn't allow their kids access to paypal exct, and if they do decide to allow them to buy things online they should be a part of the transaction from beginning to end. And maybe laws saying if someone knowingly buys porn for a minor they should be charged. That is a slippery slope though.

Been seeing more and more artists take this route and it really is the safest option. Yeah you might lose some customers ut it's better than getting into trouble from having accidentally sold NSFW to a horny teen

This is a smart practice and I apreciate that you are willing to go through the trouble to do so.
With such easy access to everything online for kids these days it's nice to see an artist going out of their way to try and mitigate that a bit, makes it that much easier on parents trying to keep their kids from being exposed to stuff before they really should.
Also a good way to protect yourself from working with minors against your knowledge, overall a good practice and support this 100%!

I think people that aren't my immediate federal authority asking for my ID are. Cringe. To say the least.

You're like inconveniencing everyone else to try to weed out the mere chance that minors try to buy porn off you. I guarantee you if anything legal sparks from it and you have actual proof they lied to you and they ignored your terms of service. You will not get in any trouble. Like you said below you don't care that they are accessing adult content acknowledging you only care that a hate mob will try to cancel you for being a creep selling porn to minors.

But trust me that mob will be tiny and they'll be done with it by Friday. That's what a ToS is for. Covering your ass from liability. Blacklist that commissioner from ever commissioning you again. EZ as.

What I like to do with people that do this. Is I drive to the liquor store. And get them a signed receipt with my discord handle on it or telegram whatever we're communicating on. Because receipts are always timed and dated. You will see 12/19/2021 on it at you know 4:51 Pm with my name on it. Sent to you the instant I walked out of the liquor store.

A lot of minors don't have very much money let alone a car to even drive to the liquor store. I would not choose this option. I would question your commissioners before asking ID.

Do this in a friendly conversation, do not make it clear that this is information is gonna determine if they get the commission or not or they will lie to you about it.

-Ask them what they do for living.
-How long they have done it for.
-Ask them if they live on their own
-Ask them if they have pets a car or own guns things that are either only accessible by adults or require a constant financial upkeep.
-Finances can be a little personal to people but if they don't mind ask them how much money they make.

If this person says like.
>I live with my parents
>I don't have a job
>I don't have a car
>We have a dog but its my moms

Ask for their fuckin ID..

if they say
>I work in a glass factory
>I've been there for 5 years
>I own my own house on my own
>I got a cat his name is Buttons here's a picture of him
>Yeah I got a Mossberg in my closet.

They're probably not lying that they're over the age of 18. But a minor could lie about these things. I find most minors like to just say they are 18. Cause they think their age is cute. And they want to keep their illusion as young as you'll let them get away with it. And you can pick apart their lies with time frames. Oh you worked here 4 years so you were hired when you were 14??
When they were 14 100% they didn't drive a car. So if they tell you they drive to work and owned that car for 3 of those 4 years. You can say "You were driving when you were 15?" I'm gonna need to check your ID.

Minors are stupid, and they will leave oversights in their lies to you. A very reliable test for me. That has had me a 100% success rate. This is yet to fail me. Send them this song. And ask them if they like it.

If they say yes. Call them out that they are not 18. It has 100% not failed for me yet.

I'd say going to the liquor store to buy something with their id would be more an inconvenience than a quick selfie and editing out id details.

I'm also inconveniencing myself here.

Sure your questions could work but asking such information within a "friendly conversation" feels a LOT more personal than what I am prepared to do for random clients that come to my streams. People I'm already hanging out with? Sure? But elsewise its a bit strong to go on that when someone just wants some art, mdude.

Also its not the dumb ones who will get flighty when you start questioning them that im worried about. It's the smarter ones.

And lastly:

Them looking at porn thats freely available on the internet to vent their hormonal urges? Fine. You cant stop that.
Being the one that *supplies it to them* can easily get you fucked over if the parents feel like persuing it. Rare, sure. But it just takes one out of all the stupid ass kids you accidentally interact with to get you fucked up. The mob can yell at me all they want. I can lose customers over this, I know.

But i'd rather lose customers than risk committing an *actual offense*.

Being "Cringe" and overly cautious is worth it.

Yeah but again if you have proof they lied and violated your ToS their parents can't do anything about it and only the kid is to blame

TOS or no, "They didnt tell me their age" does *not* always stand up in court if you supply adult artwork to a minor, even if they *bought it*.

In anycase i'm not asking you to ID yourself. I dont know why you're still trying to convince me to like. Not.

Let me be paranoid and go about your day, yeah?

There was an incident where the parents of a kid who bought NSFW work from an artist (who believed them when they said they were an adult) charged the artist with selling porn to a minor. They made the minor testify to that effect as well.

The artist fought long and hard, for as long as they could.

But they ran out of money for the legal fees.

So unfortunately, they were forced to take a plea bargain, or else face horrendously worse charges.

Now they're on the sex offender registry, they had to spend time in jail where they were harassed by guards and other inmates, and even when they're out, every aspect of their life is closely monitored so that they can no longer maintain a tangible presence on the internet, let alone ply their trade as an artist. Cops constantly harass them and destroy their stuff.

They had evidence and it didn't matter.

LapinousMalice has EVERY RIGHT to be as paranoid as they choose, because the legal system is designed to punish people rather than actually protect kids.

(Also, bearing in mind, I gave a simplified version of the incident. I don't have immediate access to the full story, and even if I did, I wouldn't post it here.)

Minors getting involved in these communities is getting... Kind of alarmingly frequent. Between them trying to get people canceled for content they shouldn't be viewing anyways or trying to get involved in commissioning age restricted content... How don't their parents know about their behavior?

My assumption is: Way too overworked and stressed to keep an eye on them or do much about it. Some might even know but just gave up and allow it to go on whilst keeping a lazy eye on how they're handling it (in case someone starts trying to get closer or something). Cause at least they're in the house not getting into trouble I guess?? Idk priorities probably change when you're working 1-2 jobs to make enough money to keep a family afloat, let alone if they have siblings.

Yeeaaahhhh, fair enough. Life's increasingly insane on all fronts.

More than fair in a legal system where 'they lied about their age' is not remotely a legal defense if you're accused of any kind of sex crime involving a minor. Protect yourself.

Honestly, go for it. I've seen a lot of artists and communities start doing this, and imo it makes me feel safer as well knowing that the chance of minors being included is greatly reduced.

As far as opposing parties - just about every argument I've seen here and elsewhere often misses the point. This isn't going to 100% fix the problem. There's never going to be a perfect fix, that's not how the world works. It does reduce the likelihood of it though - and they always have the option of not doing it if they dislike it so much, though I'd hate to see them go to clubs or other age restricted events that require ID.

Hell yeah man you ID those nasty little bastards, they're getting more and more gutsy by the day. No way I'm letting a minor pay with mommy or daddy's credit card.

I straight up don't do business with minors at all, sfw or not. If I suspect you aren't an adult I will either ask to speak with a parent or just cancel invoice altogether. Not worth the risk.

i mean if i KNOW they're a minor i block them on sight. But I cant demand ID for SFW commissions. Adult work? Yeah sure that's part of the business and i'm within my rights (and encouraged even) to check ID

I'm only saying "Stick to SFW if you cant/wont provide ID" cause whilst yeah I need to do this to keep safe and legal, theres a lot of trust issues in the internet so i'd rather build up rapport with people first before they decide to take the plunge to risk sharing their ID with me.

FRANKLY I'D RATHER THERE WAS A WAY I CAN VERIFY AGE WITHOUT THIS BUT THERE ARENT MANY OPTIONS A FREELANCER LIKE ME CAN AFFORD AND A LOT OF THE ID VERIFICATION STUFF FOR BIG BUSINESSES ARE UH...
prone to leaks, security issues and are expensive services to add to a business who might not get much use out of it (seeing as i have maybe like 50 repeat customers and most of which i already personally checked are 18+ lol)

True that. Hopefully in the future if sex work is less fucking criminalized and big banks stop sticking their noses up that we can get some ID check infrastructure built into websites like paypal...

Yanno. So we can cover our asses from liability at the very least.

yeah it sucks that regular buyers dont have to proove their damned identity up to x ammount. You'd think that'd be standard?? You need to be 18+ to legally agree to use paypal in the first place so why not make sure they are? LIke, yeesh = m = (and also allow personal details like our legal name to be hidden unless its required for shipping or some other legal thing)

I honestly understand how you feel about this completely and agree with you needing ID for work and your Discord.
I'm an admin for a Discord server myself, and its meant to be 18+. The discord was mainly for my group of friends that i drink with in VRChat but since we started it more people have joined us both in the games and in the server.
So one of our biggest issues (and as you said Paranoias) is making sure that all members that do chose to join are 18+ to join the server and any games we may play.

Also although the server is meant to be a gathering for our drinking games we chose 18+ rather then 21+ as most countries are 18+ to drink (even in some states in the 21+ countries have their onw LDA rules that allow 18+)