Over the past couple years, I've seriously been considering ripping the scab off. I've been in fandom since '97.. but in the last couple of years see the new fandom not being anything I want to be a part of, and some old faces come and go as well.. And I see why.. There are some old faces that need to be purged sometimes.
I really still love fursuiting, as I been doing it since '89.. but as of late, I may take it back out of the fandom, where there are not so many bad players.

I agree my friend.. I found the fandom just a year after you did in 1998, & it was the most welcoming, happy, place i enjoyed.. and over the last couple years i see the fandom changing.. its becoming a sad, hate-filled, toxic mess with political-mentality differences/destruction that will destroy the fandom, and humanity eventually. The fandom is no longer the all-accepting communirty where people who shared a common interest felt comfortable & welcome in regardless of race, nationality, sex, gender, political, or religious beliefs. I miss the days You & I just enjoyed fursuiting & being happy with who we are.

Honestly I really haven't seen any of that, but then I haven't been terribly active the last several years due to not going to conventions (and perpetually feeling like I have nothing to offer the fandom). Is the furry fandom becoming toxic worldwide? Or is it primarily just in the US?

Its a general aspect around the world since what is happening in usa arrive later in Europe.
Just talking about what i can see in my own country out from fandom.
But both in and out, going more to more politised and radical (despite being factual and logical) its creating their own apartheid to the absurd where people going back in 60's in pretending to be inclusive with everyone, but separately in a strange way.
Its popping up time to time when someone or some dont like the way u made a critic about something or someone and they all turning it personal.
Thats the society we living in all that simple, i dislike that kind of society and more does as well, now the real question is : what do we do against that?
Let others decided how they gonna impose their visions of a society? Or tell them no and impose ourselves?
I made my decision about it, even if people dont like conflicts, at a moment we cant say yes to every dumberies people can pull out from their rotten brains

I think what we have to do is fight for the furry fandom we know and love, to do all we can to preserve what it was only a few years ago and not allow politicized whiny little bitches take it over and "cancel" everyone they disagree with. When I got into the fandom in 2008, everybody had a voice. Everyone could express their opinion, everyone could have their own preferences and likes and dislikes. Everyone could find acceptance (with certain exceptions such as pedophiles). Everyone could express their creativity, and those who didn't like it could simply avoid looking at it. We can't let go of that.

Ain't that the goddamn truth. Been in this fandom since 1998. Found it literally the night before the Godzilla move came out here in the US. Sure there was still drama back in the day but nothing of this magnitude. There's too much social justice extremism within the ranks because, quite frankly, social justice extremists simply cannot accept the fact the world will never be this all accepting thing. THEY cannot even accept people who do not share their worldview 100% so they spread that misery around.

There's people in this fandom I disagree with on religion, political and gender nonsense. I can get along with them just fine as long as I'm not expected to affirm their BS but that's exactly the problem. They demand you do so they feel better about themselves. It's strange to me that we go from a culture of just being yourself and not needing validation from anyone to this crap where if they are not validated then it's like the end of the world.

Didn't get this way till the younger generation came into the fold and fucked it up. They don't know life without a constant internet connection and clearly cannot keep the real life and online life separate as it should be because they bring their real life baggage into this space. Cuz if you really do the digging and look back, it didn't get this way till the social media generation reached high school age and came here en masse.

It's just been corrupted. I'm 172,369 submissions behind on my inbox when I used to be on top of that. I sure as hell wouldn't go to a con today given how politically polarized their leadership is. Shame cuz I went to Rainfurrest some years ago (first and only con) and I had a great time but it was just at the cusp before the social justice extremism in the fandom went full throttle.

I really wanted to get into the fursuit stuff as well because gonna be honest with ya, I was one of those who mocked and ridiculed fursuiters as basically insecure freaks. Yeah. I was one of those but after seeing them in person and meeting a few of personally my mindset changed on that and at the time really wanted to be involved in it. Seeing those suits in person was just a gamechanger for me. Photos really do not do them justice.

But, that became less of a thing as things got more and more politically polarized. Me, I am perfectly capable of setting aside my views to a point. I will not be compelled into certain speech for example but I am not going to go out of my way to ruin someone's good time either. There's a time and place for such discourse and this space isn't really one of them. However, there are bad actors in the fandom who just have to be validated at all costs and if you don't you're akin to Adolf Hitler and they will rally the mob against you accordingly since you didn't toe the line.

These people have unrealistic expectations of the world.

What specifically has been happening that shows political polarization in convention leadership? I haven't been to a con in 4 years so I don't know what's changed and any time I've asked, if I get any answers it's incredibly vague.

You'd have to back farther then four years for that one to see how things have changed. From 2 the ranting gryphon being dropped because holds views that are not of the far left variety. Dragoneer and fellow co-goers at his con wearing "Fuck Nazis" ribbons which isn't in reference to actual bona fide Nazis/Neo-Nazis but anyone who isn't a far left Progressive. The general attitude that if you are not some drone to far left ideology then you're an enemy that is not welcome at these cons.

This is in part what really led to the creation of the Free Fur All convention that makes the attempt to go back to how things were; but of course those against that idea just simply call it a con for Nazis because that's the only retort they've got for anyone that does not 100% share their worldview. The political polarization has just been steadily getting worse every year. It's gonna snap eventually as things tend to do in the realm of extremism.

It's just sad and unnecessary though. I used to be fairly social in this fandom but as of late I spend more time kinda observing. So many broken friendships I've seen in others (and even myself as well) over others having to fancy themselves as morally superior. They truly fail to accept the fact that in their resolve to compel acceptance of all ideas they themselves value that they really are more like the Fascists they profess to be against. The patterns are quite similar.

They seek to control speech. Control thought. Control who associates with you. They say it's "equality" and "tolerance" but if you notice they've switched terms recently. Now it's "equity" and "acceptance." The real world does not work this way and in the UK alone it's proof that they will turn what they call compassion into something authoritarian. You can literally get a criminal record by not affirming someone's belief they are in the wrong body but they are free to talk all the shit they want about Christians. It's a progressive stack system of justice (rules don't apply to every class equally, basically.)

If they didn't manage to weaponize the private sector they'd have no power by now and this would all be moot because classic Liberalism doesn't work this way. Today's Progressives are quite literally the antithesis of liberalism because of the methods they employ. Doing the wrong things for the right reasons is totally wrong but to them they feel it's justified cuz... social justice... their extreme version of it anyway.

All and all, as far as the cons go, I think many are oblivious to the change because they're either not involved in politics or just aren't anyone of note whose mere presence would "traumatize" other attendees. Generally speaking they won't ban you outright but they've made it quite clear they'd rather you not be there at all if you are not a Progressive. Just observe how the conservative furries tend to be treated for having opinions they don't like.

That's the problem whenever there are extremes. Extreme liberals are as bad as extreme conservatives. I consider myself progressive but I don't go for that shit of banning and "canceling" people over disagreements. I'm all for acceptance but if someone can't be accepting they can at least be tolerant and have an attitude of live and let live. I watch TYT news clips regularly, and as progressive as they are they don't go for that liberal extremism crap either. It seems like the extremists are on the extreme far left fringe, as the name suggests, just as extremist conservatives are on the extreme far right fringe.

It's incredibly disappointing how 2 Gryphon got banned from the stage for his views. When I was using Discord I chatted with him regularly on his channel, and from what I understand he got banned because he objected to the idea of punching neo-nazis in the face for saying the things they say. Basically, he was supporting freedom of speech, including speech we disagree with, so he got banned and labeled a nazi by people who decided to take away his freedom of speech on the stage. Labeling him a nazi is as stupid as it gets; he's a gay liberal atheist with black and jewish friends (including the late Jibba who was black and gay), all of which are demographics that nazis are violently opposed to. When people throw around the word "nazi" to slur anyone they disagree with, it erodes the actual meaning of the word. While 2 and I have a lot in common considering our age and interest, we do have things we very much disagree on. But thing is, we talked about it, learned each other's viewpoints, and in the end agreed to disagree and remained friends. [I quit using Discord and I miss chatting with him.]

A value I hold dear comes from Evelyn Beatrice Hall: "I disapprove of what you say but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." If someone has conservative viewpoints and is interested in having a civilized conversation about it, we should all be willing to have that conversation. I certainly would be in order to mutually learn about each other's viewpoints and reasons for feeling how we do. If someone doesn't want to have such a discussion then there's plenty of other things we can talk about relating to the things we do have in common. The furry fandom is filled with people who were outcasts of their social environment, mistreated and rejected by family and people in school for being different, liking things that others disapproved of (ie. furry art), and who wanted a home where they could freely express themselves. The furry fandom is supposed to embrace and celebrate the value of freedom of speech and expression so people can be themselves, and celebrate not only the things we have in common but the things that make us different. That's how it was when I started out in the fandom. All of us who value that need to fight to preserve it and not allow whiny extremist little bitches to piss and moan and dictate who can and can't be a part of the furry fandom or furry conventions. There's already enough hate in the world. The last thing the fandom needs is to bring that hate in. If the hate wins, the furry fandom will cease to be.

“There are some old faces that need to be purged sometimes.”

What do you mean by that? 🤔

You don’t simply purge people, right?! 😤

The past few years have had a similar effect on me. There was once a time when I looked forward to the next convention so I could hang out with friends like you again. Now I don't even feel welcome at them, especially after having to been forced to miss Anthrocon this year.
I made some really great friends at FFA this year and it has energized me a little, but feel that is merely a stopgap measure, putting off the inevitable conclusion that I just don't belong here anymore.
The fandom now is not what it once was and to me, it is like having to say goodbye to an old friend. I don't want to but see it coming sooner rather than later.

As i mentioned to Yappy Fox above, that explains how the fandom is dying now, due to mentioned above.

It's dying because our fun little thing has been usurped by things that have nothing to do with Furry.

Care to explain? 🤔

I agree, the fandom was once an all-welcoming place for those who shared common interests regardless of political beliefs or religous beliefs, now that is not the case. Political anarchy & devision has made the fandom less welcome & far more toxic for those who wish to remain apolitical or a centrist ass it seems, especially with the new call-out-culture sickness of humanity. Earth is a small planet, with ONE race/species of human-beings, existing with many other species of animal life, when/if this planet dies due a an asteroid strike, sun-going-super-nova, or what ever, none of that will matter.

Know this feeling and had the same thought. been furry since 2005 still going but I have cut back alot. *hugs you* Though we may have lost friends glad we can still hear from you.
I agree with everything it's not what it use to...I wonder what I would do, ever since covid I got my house and took a step back. It may never be the same, all u can hope for is that it gets better, you make new friends or see old ones.

In the broader context, I tend to agree with the above. I have found that the smaller conventions are more open and friendly than the mega-cons. It seems like in a smaller event there is less tension and folks are really happy to be there. =^.^=

I miss smaller conventions, where we all had fun without the hate, kaos, & bull-chit.

I am still here on FA but do not post stuff as much as I use to. Like some of us OF back in the days. The furry fandom was a great place to chat online and talk about events coming up or local monthly events going on. IT was those local events that people would sit and chat about how things were going. I remember in WI we had a weekly coffee met and 8 of us would show up at a local dinner and have coffee and chat. Then the young guys wanted to join and what started out as a quiet get together turned into 20 people yelling across the room. People would order stuff and then just ditch the check. Same with furry cons. The first ones I went to were a blast to meet new and old friends and chat. Now as I read con reports it is all about how drunk you can get at room parties and who many people you can yiff. Oh and one last thing back in the days drama was delt with quick, swift and quietly. Now it seems like 100 people are having some kind of issue and half of them are just doing it to get attention and the ones that really need help seem to fall through the cracks.

I am still hanging on.

*duck-tapes you to my leg to keep you holiding on! XD

That was something wild wasn't it? Seems like so long ago now where it was common here for people to have disagreements and not treat it like you just murdered someone.

Its because of the current political agenda of a certain movement.

I remember discovering furry back in late 1999. I've met some good people who I got to know and call true friends. Furry today is nothing like what it was all those years ago. I still enjoy fursuiting as much as anyone, but the fandom itself has degraded into a political, toxic, cesspool of "woke" and entitled jerks that believe the only truth in the world exists in their own little fragile bubble. Today I don't hear much from furs, you are one of the few that ever even ask how I'm doing. No matter what the future holds, I am glad to have met you and known you all these years. I don't really know how much longer I'll be here in the game of life, my health keeps declining, but you always have a friend here with an open ear, an open mind, and a hug when ever needed. *Hugs*

hugs* welcome to my world my friend.

you have no idea how many times I nearly died...but I am still here, kicking.
and not planning to leave AT ALL.

Nostalgia has a blinding effect on us and makes us forget or only see things with blurred vision.
I can remember seeing some of the problems we talk about today happening back then. The only difference is that they were either coming from different angles or occurring in smaller sizes off-stage. There were cliches and other groups that divided the fandom in their own ways or tried to isolate others from the group at large. There were power grabs and a constant ebb and flow of influence peddling.

I want to look back and think happy thoughts about the past. But much like the theater, the fandom never was what the fandom was.

I remember one of my earliest experiences with this fandom was finding the main Usenet newsgroup for the fandom, alt.fan.furry. First time I accessed it I was treated to a 600-message thread that was nothing but a flame war. I only had to read a few hundred posts to figure out that the dispute being argued would never fix itself no matter what was said.

The more things change, the more they stay the same, but amplified. Instead of newsgroups, we have social media that can be accessed practically anywhere anytime thanks to smartphones, so instead of just the wingnuts in our corner of the world, we get to witness the kooks in everyone's backyard. And yet many in this fandom still tend to think we're the only party with turds in the punchbowl.

I remember meeting you Railride when i discovered the fandom in the late 1990's & early 2000's. still some of my most cherished moments. *hugs*

sends hugs* You are among one of us who enjoyed the real fandom bud.

Could it not be just some natural part of changing mentality? I say that more so than "growing up" as it makes the feel of furry being kiddish and foolish. But thats not so. Is it perhaps that as we age and our minds mature and learn that we see things from a certain perspective? Then things that once were trivial things that we didnt care about now becomes to the fore front of your realization? It seems like it's changed because we have changed? Stuff we never truly registered or even thought about on how ridiculous the behavior is, now we are like "Why would someone do that." Us being more able to mentally track that. Along with how communication has changed just in those two decades. We are able to be more informed about what is going on when before, it wasnt in your face. I have thought about this plenty myself and I honestly agree that it certainly seems different but I also look back on the fact that I myself have changed in my own viewpoints and mentality.

I know what you mean, at least to some extent. Being a very socially withdrawn introvert I haven't been able to make many friends even in the furry fandom. Those who I did make friends with I really cherished as friends and loved to see them again at furry cons. But over time I've fallen out of touch with nearly all of them. As you said, some left FA and moved exclusively to twitter or other sites where I don't have an account. Some left the fandom entirely. Acquaintances have died but none who I considered a close friend.

I do value you as a friend, Firestorm. Whatever health news you plan to share, I hope it isn't too bleak. All the best to you. *hugs*

hugs back* there anre many of you like yourself who i hold dear as friends to me.

Sometimes it gets me when I find a piece of art I like and try to find the artist, only to find they aren't around anymore. I have a very soft spot for furry art circa '95-2010, especially traditional art.

I agree with the observations... I just want to be a bit more positive, as a counterpoint. That oldskool mindset still exists in various corners, with this being one of them. There is a want for that close fandom, whatever it was. The question to ask is how can we get these people in one place to try and make something out of it? I think it's possible...

Well-wishes, seek happiness, and best of luck. *hugs wolf*

I joined the furry fandom since 2013 almost 10 years from now , just reading this really hits me hard of the emotional, im glad i joined this fandom it really helps me to be happy and forget my mental illness (Anxiety and Depression) still im strong , Stay strong buddy and hang in there :) , we the furry fandom will always be a memorable moment and making a great in the future! :DDD

If it means anything, you're one of my favorite parts of the fandom and I wish we might have met during any of my visits to Toronto.

Thank you my friend. Makes me happy you said that, because i feel the same way & love to meet new people & make friends, as that is exactly what the furry fandom once was about. *hug*

Reading through some of the other comments here brings to mind thoughts I had regarding 2 other hobbies.

1. Role Playing Games. I love them, but right now, having problems finding a group. Some recent events, and some less recent events from 6 years ago, did not help any. But you have folks who swear by RPG system 1 and others, like myself, who swear at it. Some folks think you have to do it this way or you are not role playing; while others think you are only truly RPing if you do it that way. I have a book, Robin's Laws of Good Game Mastering. It lists 7 ways people engage in role playing games! It is a unified hobby broken into different subgroups.

2. Model trains. Same thing as above. O, HO/OO, N, Z, TT scales, and sometimes people call them gauges but that has to do with the width between the rails and not with the ratio of reduction in size from the real thing. There was an argument on some National Model Railroading forum whether or not LEGO is legit model railroading. Some others think it is not legitimate model railroading unless you weather your rolling stock. .... Oh, C'mon! I just want to run the train around the track, and sometimes do some switching action or sort trains in the yard to build new consists. Just because my trackside structures were made with cardboard and decorated/colored by crayon does not mean I am not modeling a railroad. I just do it differently.

The furry fandom we enjoyed and still enjoy, is still there. Others are coming who enjoy it differently. And some of that is maybe kind of fun too, but we won't know unless we try it.

O Gauger here. Don't get me started on 2-railers snarking in yer videos about how "they can't stand that middle rail" :rolleyes:

"So why are you watching? The thumbnail made it obvious what was in it."

The biggest problems in my eyes are Discord and Twitch.

The former allows it every uninvested people to join chat-servers in a fragmented system, where every streamer has their own servers running with dead channels and people often, if ever, writing ‘sentences’ consisting of two to three words.
That makes it pretty much impossible to role-play, since the average user simply either a) lacks the correspondent or b) lacks the mental capabilities for it. But that’s what the furry fandom is about: Playing a role!

The latter basically shaming what’s part of the core of all of it, as it stands in direct competition to their income: Sex.
They usually can’t draw that on stream or do anything in that direction during it, so a significant portion reacts aggressive towards the subject right from the start: “No lewd stuff!” is often seen as one of the first rules.
People browsing FA or chatting on IRC in whole sentences simply don’t generate monetary income and are regarded as parasites. The system makes more money with people gawking VRChat-streamers instead of ‘consumers’ (which don’t exist on IRC and is a problem in their eyes) making use of their own imagination.

It’s the dumbing down of society by a bunch of narcissists and a corrupt clique (“I’m a content-creator doing a sleep-stream with 100+ viewers for a prolonged period of time”, a.k.a. ‘money laundering’) with capture-devices.

I see you the same way as those that were very talkative to me back in the days and they’re quiet we’re just getting too busy for the Internet or like you mentioned ..passed away or moved on from the fandom onto something else. It’s hard to say what people are doing these days and those that have been by your side from the beginning that are still there by your side and that’s something I really cherish. We meet new people along the way and other people don’t stay in contact and things change.

I think if people are leaving the fandom outside from the work life, its because people finally grown up and decided to be done with the childish part of that same fandom.
Polemics apart even if its a constant in the reasons to leave it

I know how you feel bud, the fandom has become somewhat "cold" & hateful, not warm & friendly like it once was. *hugs*

Wishing we could go back to the better times yet times been changing over the years as well as people and some not friendly as others and people are leaving..

I joined Furry Fandom in 2005, and still running. Furry is like my family and friends. Seeing my dear furry friends pass away, disappear, or quit furry fandom hurt a lot. Friends come and away; its life. *hugs tightly*

hugs back lots*

:( I feel this. Sorry about your health

I’ve always loved seeing your fursuits. I’ll be disappointed if you leave, but it’s totally understandable.

Im not planning to leave my friend.. i am thriving along the best i can. But like we all do, we eventually reach a point where our health fails us, we die, or we will all grown old & become ill & unable to push on no matter how much we try. its life, & life is shorter than we hoped.

I hope things get better we want ya around for much longer buddy. But i know how the health thing is too seems like, been going down hill myself for the past year or two. but that just means ya gotta have the best time while your still able

send hugs* i hope so too.

Myself in my late husband, MuscleWolf, am thankful that you’re still around

*hugs* Sometimes I feel self conscious about staying in the fandom or social media. But I just try to focus on only the good people I've interacted with and forget about all the negative and toxic ones. I mostly feel that way whenever I get blocked for no reason and have no reason why. I hope that you feel better soon. Lastly, I worry about what my first furry con will be like at times too.

hugs*

Thanks :3

I count my furry initiation as to my account creation on FM in 2002, and now having attended and presented at VancouFur for about the last five times up till now, I'm finally going to my first ever US con (big* con) this coming new year x.x

It's good to see you having enjoyed your time and still understand and value what's important to you about it. Maybe we'll cross paths some time :)

hugs lots* :3

Very well said. That bit about watching videos of furry outings and wanting to be there also hits very close to home... A lot of them got unlisted and hard to find over the years, I saved a bunch of them when YouTube was making unlisted videos private last year. They mean that much to me.

"Unlisted" basically means they won't come up in a search. Kind of a self-shadowban They can still appear in other people's public Likes/playlists if they were public long enough for others to add them (though that's of little comfort if they changed status before you found them directly).

I have a whole playlist of videos, a large chunk of which were by one creator who made theirs private for a little more than a year before switching them back to 'public' status. I only became aware of the uploader making them visible when they started reappearing in said playlist, since I didn't remove them when they first went private. They've since switched to Unlisted, but I can still watch them (though I downloaded all of said person's videos when they last went public in case they private them again)

The word on the street was someone found out how YouTube encoded old video IDs and could therefore find any video ID, including unlisted ones. Meaning, if you uploaded an unlisted video to only share it with 3 people, now anybody could find it even if none of you ever shared the link. See https://blog.youtube/news-and-events/update-youtube-unlisted-links/

Because of that, YouTube made old unlisted videos private in July 2021 unless the uploader opted out: https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/9230970

There's a whole bunch of videos that used to be public and were unlisted over the years for whatever reason. You can't tell who was going to opt out of YouTube automatically making these private (god forbid they lost the password to their 15 year old account in the meantime), and I'd bet a lot of them didn't even know they were making them private, so I spent a bunch of time saving these videos.

>They can still appear in other people's public Likes/playlists if they were public long enough for others to add them

I've watched videos this way many times by remembering the title and google searching the title and uploader's name "in quotes". In fact, that's how I got the links to the tons of videos I saved last July before they made the change... very tedious.

Nowadays favorites playlists are usually private by default unless you change it, and Google completely removed public Liked Videos playlists a while back too. As in, even if you wanted your likes to be public, you can't do so anymore without workarounds. Feh.