Draw owls

watch owls ?

Pickles!!! They were so good.

Vix

I thought about getting Veilguard, but I heard it removed a lot of the lore from the first two (and even some from Inquisition, which also removed a lot of lore from the first two), as well as ignoring some plotlines that were previously set up. So I don't know about getting it now.

How does it compare in your opinion? I heard that some of the plots/dialogue felt shoehorned in.

Stripedfur, my friend... you pulled your finger out of the dam. Brace for the torrent. I am sorry ;)

A bit of history here. I've played all of the Dragon Age games. I know a lot of the deep deep lore because I combed through games and books and comics and creator Q&As for details. And I watched in the middle of Inquisition when the lead designer left and later talked about how corporate wanted to make games with "Less writing", then I watched as they fired every good writer they had left on staff in 2023, and then suddenly "Dread Wolf" became "Veilguard".

Out the gate I had a major plot point spoiled that I won't spoil here other than to say a character I loved very much died like a bitch and I am not happy about it. Character death needs to be meaningful, especially if it's a beloved one. This sincerely felt like they were just clearing out any 'past' characters with writers that they'd fired. The look was crazy different. In Origins and DA2 and even in parts of DA3 things were dirty and you felt like even though there was magic you were tromping around in mud and over mountains. In Veilguard you start in a city with floating buildings and damn glowing magical neon signs. As Kane said, it felt like they actually wanted to make a sci-fi game so added these magical elements that really should have been put in scifi instead.

The writing is horrible. It's what I call "Quippy" where someone MUST make a Marvel-character-esque remark about EVERYTHING. An ogre comes in, a party member will invariably say, "Woah. Big guy, ain't he?" and "An ogre!" even though not once was the word "ogre" used in the other games, at least not casually like that. SOMEONE needs to make a dang quip about everything. Every corner turned, every fight, every new thing, SOMEONE has a "clever" quip to make even though 99% of the time it is literally stating the obvious. "A dragon!" "That almost got us!" "Boy I'd hate to be him!" It's all canned and predictable and literally feels like no thought was put into it at all.

The lore was mangled. I haven't gotten too deep but it feels like... hmm. Okay, I'm going to go with something that isn't a plot-dependant spoiler but is a very minor bit of lore spoiler to give a less "spoil the game" example of the major lore spoilers they did in Veilguard. So, did you know that Alistair was actually a half elf? Fiona, the leader of the mage rebellion is his mother. She boffed Maric in the deep roads in a fit of "We're going to die and I need to feel something" passion. But they have never once outright stated, "Fiona is Alistair's mother, Alistair is half elf, and nobody noticed because half elves look human." and it was never directly said because that's not how you're supposed to discover lore. You find pieces and slowly assemble them and that's why you love the game. And Veilguard feels like someone just walked up and said, "Oh yeah, King Alistair is half elf, his mom was a gray warden." because their writing ability was about as subtle as a brick. I genuinely feel so sorry for David Gaider as he weaved all of these little bits of lore into the story that took years to find and these new people just firehose it out like it's something everyone knows and how come it took YOU this long?

The characters are inconsistent and ugly. I really liked what they had done with the Dailish in DA2 by making them Welsh and giving them kind of unique shaped heads and faces but NOPE, everyone needs to look uncanny valley like their special snowflake writers and voice actors now. We were in a nightmarish scene and the oh-so-quirky little tinkerer mage is acting completely unaffected by the fact that the world is ending because she's just OH SO QUIRKY DONTCHAKNOW. Then five minutes later she's having a nervous breakdown over crap we learned like an hour ago and she would have learned too if she'd been paying attention but I guess this is the moment where she's supposed to appear weak and confused instead of quirky.

The nonbinary character's arc should be insulting to nonbinary people. This is a fantasy world and 'binary' is a COMPUTER TERM. But they insisted those exact words get used. So we get in the scene where the character is coming out to their mother, and the thing is the mother mentions a term her own people use for folks who fall into that classification. But the nonbinary character is having none of it how dare you try to meet me halfway it's call me nonbinary or you're the worst monster in the world. The trans character. Crem, in Inquisition was WONDERFUL. They found a woman who could speak in a deeper register to the point that you weren't sure, and they revealed it by having him tease Iron Bull about binding his big floppy man boobs. I thought it was natural and really well, not, "MOTHER I AM NONBINARY!!!" Aaaugh.

It's bad, Stripedfur. It's more than bad, it's an insult and a literal spit in the face in some places to the franchise.

Good thing for you I love a good dump.....of Lore! Dump of lore.. Anyway! On to the response.

I love the hell out of Origin. I tried playing DA2 but I couldn't get past the fact that you had to be Hawke. You could be male or female, but you couldn't choose a race or an origin story. That, and it felt like everything was.....off? Don't get me wrong, it's good enough, it just didn't feel like a true sequel. It felt more like DLC to the first one where you play a certain character's story, much like Leiliana's DLC (which got her backstory wrong, compared to what she says in the game) or Witch Hunt, where you continue Morrigan's story with the main character (which I always play when I romance her, it brings the romance to a nice conclusion).

Inquisition felt like something actually new, and an actual sequel. For the most part. Like you said it felt very disjointed in parts, and now I know why. It was still an okay try at it, but overall it felt like it was supposed to be something else, and at the last minute they shoehorned in 'Dragon Age' stuff to make it fit. It also felt like they added puzzles and complex grinding just for the sake of making it difficult, without making it fun.

And I wondered why they switched the name from "Dread Wolf" to "Veilguard", and now I know why. I also didn't like what they did to Solace in Inquisition, although I don't know if they expanded on that in Veilguard or ignored it completely because of the change in name/direction. Either way, yeah I'm not getting that game now. It sounds horrific. And the thing with Alistair? I suppose they could say "well, we said his mother was a maid in the first game because we wanted it to be a surprise. Surprise!" but I say they needed to have clues there to follow. Some bit of lore in the games to lead players to that conclusion. Players like to delve into the lore themselves to work things out (at least *I* do), and to have everything just handed to you — not to mention abruptly like that — just feels very 'last minute'. Like they were about to finish up the game when someone important at the studio said "We need to include this!", so the devs rushed to write it into the game.

All-in-all, especially with the 'Sci-Fi' elements, Veilguard feels very 'cobbled together' and like they're trying too hard to be 'hip' and fit in with today's trends. It was lauded as being 'inclusive' with the trans and non-binary folk, but the way you talk it feels like more of an insult than an inclusion. I think I'll go with BG3, unless you've played that and that's horrible too. xD

Exactly. Now, the thing with Alistair WASN'T spoiled, but it's my example because it's also a plot point that will never be visited again because the devs gave no craps about the first games it felt like. But I felt very proud of myself for slowly picking apart the lore from thinking Alistair was just the result of a tryst in the first game to reading the books and learning about Fiona which was about when the second game came out. Then MEETING Fiona in the third game and watching her get dressed down BY HER OWN BOY! And she never once tells you. She just asks after him. It makes the fact that if you side with the Templars and later fight a horrible red lyrium abomination with 'Fiona' as a nametag all the more painful. In DA2 you learned that elf-human hybrids looked human, so there was lore there too. But that was a mystery I uncovered slowly like an archeologist slowly cleaning a dinosaur bone and making it take on a solid shape over time. It took me FIVE YEARS to finally say I had all the pieces of that puzzle and it was satisfying when I finally had enough confirmation, which was simply Fiona asking if Alistair was well, to make it worth it.

As opposed to the. "Everyone already knows that, DUH!" fanfiction level of lore drops in Veilguard. uugh.

Hopefully that means that, if you side with the mages, you won't have to fight her? Kinda like in ME2 where, if you don't get Jack's loyalty up/don't romance her fully, you have to fight a Siren that has her name? The one that says "I will destroy you!" when you fight it. Or maybe you fight it in ME3. I don't remember, because I never fought it (I always got her loyalty up). Anyway, it gives me hope for the third game.

If I read the lore, I probably would've gotten that, but it sounds like that was something else they changed a bit. If Alistair's mother was a Grey Warden, you'd think Marric would've been proud of that fact. Unless she never told him? Idk, too many variables for my brain right now. xD Either way, Origins is still my favorite game of the series, and the one I always go back to whenever I feel the 'Dragon Age' itch.

I've taken Veilguard off of my Steam Wishlist, but now I'm worried that BG3 will be bad. xD

Oh no, BG3 is wonderful. They worked hard on letting you do everything and playing with all sorts of fun lore. It's a pile of fun. Don't hesitate to get BG3 :)

Oh thank God! At least I know that one won't disappoint me. I've played a couple of the other games, as well as some games set in that world, so I was really looking forward to that. Good to know!

And along those lines, are there any other games like those that you recommend? I'm a big fantasy-RPG geek, so I really love games like that.

If you enjoyed the classic Baldur's Gate games you might like Pillars of Eternity as they're build around similar concepts. The second one takes place at sea and you can be a pirate if you want. They're redoing Final Fantasy 7 but the original creator said he refused to just to a straight out remaster and it's got a LOT of new story elements and is almost a completely fresh retelling with new story added and nuancing up existing ones so if you can handle the price tag FF7 Remake Intergrade and Rebirth are really good. And if you haven't played FF15 yet it's my favorite out of the franchise in awhile with cool stuff like fishing and photography and a really nice story about what brotherhood means. I don't know if the new God of War games count but honestly despite all the bad press I thought they were really good games with good messages on family and fatherhood and love. If you haven't picked up on it yet, story is deeply important to me. So having a story I can connect to is some of the most important aspects of a game. It's why my non RPG favorites are Alan Wake, Control, Undertale, Night in the Woods and Death Stranding.

I have FFVII, VIII, and FFX and X-2: Remastered on Steam, as well as I-IV on my wish list, as well as other fantasy RPGs like:

Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance II
Chrono Trigger
Dragon Age Origins: Ultimate Edition
Drago Age II
Dragon Age: Inquisition
Dragon's Dogma: Dark Arisen
Dungeon Siege 1-3
The Elder Scrolls III-V
Fable: Anniversary
Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition
Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning (I also have Re-Reckoning, but I haven't played it)
Neverwinter
Stories: The Path of Destinies - Remastered
The Witcher 1-3

I have others, but none I'd really consider RPGs even though they're fantasy-esque, as well as some stuff on disks for various consoles.

And wasn't Pillars of Eternity supposedly the Siege of Avalon sequel?

Sorry, busy weekend!

Pillars of Eternity was actually a standalone universe developed by Obsidian to be a spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale. They pulled in some really good writers for it and its it's own thing. They brought in some of the Planescape Torment people for Tides of Numinera but I could never connect with that game. You may have a different experience though. Also since I don't see Planescape Torment on this list I recommend it. Beamdog which had some old Bioware devs remastered it so it's playable on modern computers. I think they even made a fresh module for Baldur's Gate and brought in the original voice actors (then got in trouble for having Minsk make a Gamergate joke).

Although it doesn't fit into the genre of rpg fantasy, I really liked Death Stranding and wish I could tell you why. But if you haven't played it give it a try.

No problem, I understand! I looked it up and the supposed sequel was Pillars of Avalon, not Pillars of Eternity. My bad. xD

I actually have Planescape Torment, but it's on my GoG account which I forgot to include here. xD Here's my GoG list:

Baldur's Gate: The Original Saga
Baldur's Gate 2 Complete
Dungeons & Dragons: Dragonshard
Dungeon Keeper Gold
Dungeon Keeper II
Dragonsphere
Forgotten Realms: Demon Stone
Icewind Dale Complete
Icewind Dale II Complete
Neverwinter Nights: Diamond
Neverwinter Nights II Complete
Planescape Torment
Siege of Avalon: Anthology
Spellforce: Platinum Edition
Spellforce II: Anniversary Edition
Spellforce II: Demons of the Past
Spellforce II: Dragon Storm
Spellforce II: Shadow Wars
Septerra Core: Legacy of the Creator
The Temple of Elemental Evil
Ultima 4: Quest of the Avatar
Worlds of Ultima: The Savage Empire


Along with a few others that don't fall into that category, although I haven't played hardly any of them, I keep them there just in case.