Oh wow, oh wow!

I didn't know there's such dedicated fighters among us. The national localization thing might irk me a bit for now, but I only wonder, is registering and uploading gonna be free there?

Also, I hope it's gonna have such neat navigation and socializing tools like FA does, such as watches, having a User Control Panel with all contributions by all your watches, and even a forum to generally talk about art.

Eye's down d'here...

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Hi there Daddy Duck...

We arnt so much fighters as we are strategists and masters of logistics if you will. As far as FA is concerned we hold our opinions for what part of what they did that was rather undue and we can nod our heads and smile for the part they did that was cool and show some gratitude but past that its been time to go elsewhere for a long time, no more dropping hints, the obviously will not have us so here we go, no ruckus necessary.

As far as some other things though, like freedom of speech and expression, and not for its part in legality in the US but just for a core belief in what should be afforded to everyone in order to form a more perfect union, and all that. Believe me, there are many of us out here who care, so to that regard where FA is a ground where we are not at an advantage but to keep being overtaken and loose each time we even make a peep little own lift a metaphorical pitch fork or axe, we wisely move to a place where we are at an advantage to gain winning ground in those endeavors.



Not sure what you meant by national localization, we wouldn't try to do anything that would "irk" someone, all be it we're probably not gonna please everyone in every way, but as far as our project is concerned we're sure gonna try, that being said...

As I mentioned in the wall of text, we're shooting for near full use of the site for free. Registration will be free, and there will be no charges for uploads. There will be very few features though reserved for "honored artists" / "honored members", which will be free as well, and then there will be a few features that could otherwise bog down the system if everyone used them so we are looking to perhaps charge a small small fee for them, rather than leaving them out completely. Not sure what any of them would be at this point, but for instance one of them would very likely be that there could be a file size cap that you could purchase to exceed. It still could be a maybe though, being that on average many people don't ever really upload file sizes that could impede that much on the server. I don't have to many staff though at the time to make a solid decision where these things are concerned, and where its key to me that everything here be community centric, even though I'm paying for this, I don't want to lay down the law concerning something like this, so its still open to discussion. Anyways, almost totally free with a possibility of being totally free.

We will have donations and fund raisers and raffle contests now and then to build an emergency fund and maybe encourage updates more often than actually necessary just so we can make it look nicer, but not so that in essence the member base is buying stability, like on some other sites. And we will eventually have ad space like what is on FA to draw in a trickle income. We may have ad space early on, but it will be free for a while to honored artists and such.

Finally, as mentioned in the wall of text on my user page, we are shooting for cA to have a look and feel similar to FA so it should be easy to get around here for those people who are switching but are reluctant because they got so used to and enjoyed FA's UI. We were considering Diaspora software because socializing and social network is one of our key concerns, we will be using Dolphin for now and may pay for some added features a little later and stick with it, but in FA's current state right now, our socializing tools will blow theirs away. Yes we'll have watches, and counters that will make it easy at a glance to see what new contributions you have and we will have groups and forums, and resource wiki's but for us those will not be set aside from the main site, and will be an integral part of it.

Keep in mind that the up and coming release that should be active no later than Monday, will not have all the features we are looking for, or they may be present but need to much work to get into, find, and use. These situations will be being worked on as we go, and suggestions and technical fart reports, so long as they are done in kind, will be considered as key priority and addressed ASAP.

I hope I answered all your concerns. For what I understood of what you asked and said, I tried my best to offer something to every point.

I am very happy that you are so enthused about what we are doing here, and with the team I'm pulling together I think you will be pleasantly surprised at what we'll have to offer.

What I meant by "national localization" was that we're supposed to identify where we're hailing from.

What irks me about that first is the many grey areas (just look at the many debates of Americans vs. Canadians what cub porn is or not) that some people might overinterpret on each side right away, or when legal changes are about, which might yield to people getting blocked out from access unwarrentedly.

The other thing I'm afraid of is that authorities might demand blacklists of IPs from their own country right from the start or when legal changes are about, in order to go after people IRL. It doesn't matter how warranted such RL actions might be or not, nobody wants to be harassed about these things. I myself know a number of people who were entirely cleared of all charges originally leveled against them months after they had had their doors knocked down, several limbs broken, and their furniture ruined. The authorities responsible for these acts could never be held accountable for their actions, for those having been "procedures on duty", coupled with exonerating claims of alleged "resistance" made by those that had been using the violence in question, and that's also why not even any compensations were ever granted for what conditions people were suffering afterwards. And no, this is no third-world country or recognized "banana republic" where I've seen this.

Another thing that occured to me now that I've had a day to reflect on this whole thing is that I don't think we should have a "general area" for "the kids of furry parents" or anything like that. Just think of it, it's pretty obvious Cubaffinity will have been built around cub porn and how the FA cub ban plays into its establishment, so I think one of the best things we could do to cover our tails would be no such risky business involving access of IRL minors to the site or even inviting them. It doesn't matter what we or any single members will be doing or not, it's all about what it'll look like to outsiders and how vulnerable it'll make us.

Just in case it didn't link that back to you, cause it looks like it didn't for some reason...

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Okay, I understand what you meant about being irked with "national localization" and to be honest my friend, it irks me to all get out as well. Many people don't understand the differences between necessity and desire, and this is something that I feel needs to be done to close up some loose ends and dis-empower conservatives and what not to be able to point there fingers at us and cause trouble. We cant help that some extreme rightest, conservatives, and fundamentalists will be at our door step now and then trying to lynch and otherwise fear monger us into submission that we are indeed bad and need to dress up in our Sunday best and go to church and repent of our sins, see where we went wrong, show remorse, and promise to never commit those sins again. For instance, Disney has even some not really all that radical church groups steaming over them and constantly trying to point out what is blatantly to them an agenda to make kids offer themselves up to child prostitution and other delinquency, debauchery, corruption, and sexual deviancy. The same groups of people who seem to claim expertise on sexuality and psychology without studying it past what their preacher says is sin on Sunday, can be found making school system admins lives a living hell for their part in attempting to properly educate children concerning sexuality, relationships, and simple dynamics behind human reproduction. Rather than thinking it some attempt to assist children in how to make wiser decisions concerning those things, wise enough to be less likely to make similar mistakes that their parents did they go ape shit psychotic mob mentality over it because they think its giving kids the go ahead to fuck each other night and day, as if all of the children that have been given condoms and taught how to put them on, just fall right into a perpetual safe sex orgy for the rest of their lives.

You simply can not escape that kind of ignorance, and sometimes, yes the voice that speaks it or leads the mob's chant seems to be powerful indeed. What we don't seem realize though is that we can do something about it.

One of those ways about dis-empowering that kind of thing so we don't have to be afraid is preemptive compliance to actual laws, and the thing where we would do our part to show that we wish to stay on the good side of the authorities in other countries and keep people in their municipalities from seeing what they are not currently allowed to, much like age blocking is just one of those things. Personally, I don't like having to do it, but I have to build a strong and stable foundation where we can point to proof that we are abiding by current laws and doing everything we are mandated to do and then some to comply. Mob mentality and Fox News sensationalist spin that fires the emotions of those sheeple who follow it, does not make something conservatives and fundamentalist demand we face harsh circumstances for, necessarily something that we should face harsh circumstances for. Just because Rush Limbaugh and fill in the blank big name televangelist says it should be illegal, does not make it illegal. Just because it may have been determined by a court to be illegal, also does not mean that its etched in stone and that they were right to do it. The decisions must be complied to so long as they are law, but that does not mean that there is anything wrong in appealing those matters to higher courts who can point to the fact that the decision could have been rushed and otherwise is pretty much blatantly counter what our nation stands for. Such has been the case before in the not so distant past concerning pornography in general and "simulated" / cartoon / artistic depictions including young looking characters in adult and . or sexual situations. These matters are so recent that the conservatives smoking gun, The Miller Test is almost under as much heat as the shota and loli and art like them matter is. Some people, myself included think that it doesn't really have that much of a chance, and if it is determined to be valid and useful now then it's life from now until its demise will be short lived.

Getting back to point if you will, just because other countries have made fairly recent decisions concerning these kind of things, does not mean that they are not meeting staunch ridicule and scrutiny and in some cases probably don't have too much longer before they are tweaked and perfected and rewritten where as the restrictions relevant to what we are talking about will be removed. Saying that, I have less belief in the possibility of those kind of things happening where its been law for a chunk of a good many years, but in nations like the UK, Australia, and possibly even Canada, I see good possibilities that these things could change drastically soon to a point where we don't have to worry about what would otherwise be a large part of our membership facing undesirable events simply for enjoying our site, when there is otherwise not a thing wrong with doing so.

Till that time though we will be strong in our goal to build a stable foundation with minimal threat to be being taken down for people misinterpreting our being some support site for the sexual abuse of children.

Once again, its not something that I really want to do, I've lived in border states with Canada long enough to have friends and connections there, and even to some greater extent really like the whole bunch of canooks, and their nation and respect their political mannerisms often times more than I like how things are run over here. I'm not saying I'm an ex-patriot and that I don't love my nation, cause I do, its just... Well, its probably not really best to go there right now, and I think you probably could guess if you made a good honest try at it, what I would say and how I feel anyways. It just boils down to being a strategy where with we can have some stability and not have to fear strong retribution or consequences such as what's happening on the larger sites right now.

From what you said, I hope I'm not wrong in saying that to summarize at this point a question you might be left asking is, "Well, arn't you afraid?" And to answer you simply, strait faced, and with no sugar coating or beating around the bush, the answer to that question would be... "heck no, and hell yes".

I've been in the fandom long enough to see a lot of how these things pan out. I've also had various degrees of involvement in community sites like FA and what cA is going to be, as well as managing forums, moderating MUCK communities, and staffing large special interest bulletin boards, to name a few of the roles relevant to what we are talking about here. I'm also fairly well read up with legalities, and studied in social structures and current events that have to do with all of this, you can learn a hell of a lot being around in the thick of things for two and a half decades or so.

Taking it a little bit out of the current ball park but not all together, and to show that my obsessions and passions arnt really all that sheltered within the confines of what cA is going to be... I am for instance aware that in the state of MI it is still, or last I checked, a misdemeanor crime to engage in acts of sodomy, and it becomes a felony the moment someone busts a nut. I'm not sure if legislation concerning it was written to say "orgasm" there by not excluding exclusively female couples or groups, or males who can otherwise not ejaculate, but I know for a fact that if any of the parties involved was male and were capable of shooting a load, it went from misdemeanor to felony at that point. Laws may have been rewritten while Jenny Jennifer Granholm was Governor but I know these laws existed for a long time in parallel with the supreme courts determination that this was in effect patently absurd where two consenting adults were concerned. Here's where it gets tricky though... Lets say that laws concerning the matter have not changed, and if they have look at this hypothetically when they hadn't but the supreme court had made their decision concerning the matter. The whole entire matter simply empowered the local authorities to really mess up your life to a point that it wouldn't really matter much by the time it got to the higher court.

So yes, all things considered, I'm not going to sit here and claim that I'm fearless, but then again that would be one of the drives in making sure that things are run as tight nit and in compliance to actual current laws as possible.

Here's the other thing though. Y-Gallery hosts shota, and I know there is a hentai site affiliated with them in some way that hosts Loli, there are many other sites who host this content as well and have for some many years, another one that just came to mind is Deadfrog. FA would still be within legal bounds to host even loli and shota, but certainly could still host cub pr0n, and its not a matter that the police or FBI was knocking down there door, but simply a matter of staff and site owners wanting to keep doing business with a certain service provider who felt they didn't like that content. FA and ink bunny hosted these contents along side providing accounts where someone as young as 13 could access the site and didn't really face any threat that their equipment would be confiscated for contributing to the delinquency of a young teenager, and in fact I'm almost sure that they never really received too many if any realistically threatening letters from pissy church lady moms or conservative whinny ass dads saying they would do everything in their power to take them down for corrupting their child/ren. I've seen correspondence and forum posts from staff and owners of other sites such as Cub Central that tell curious and inquisitive folk that contrary to what they may think, they've never ever received any threats of legal action being taken against them by the authorities.

Cub Central has been up and running for something like a decade or more, yet you can look up easily how quickly and effectively sites that serve up and host actually illegal content, be it anything of the sort but especially child porn where the sites are raided rather quickly and taken down almost before the people who report them finish typing up the reports.

Personally speaking I've seen a rather effective and not really all to lacking response from the authorities in dealing with sites that actually perpetuate or otherwise support abuse and illegal exploitation of children or even adults. They may slip up now and then and over react, but from what I've seen that does not really happen all that often, and the people in charge of those stings and operations face fairly harsh consequences as far as their jobs are concerned when they botch them up like that.

Lastly because I feel I may be in danger of severally derailing this train the concern about offering services for real little fur artists and their parents. I touched on it a little up above there, but this is something that we would not really be the only one doing, and its something that I'm well aware of in that it can make for some thin ice, but then again this whole reply has almost been about methods where by we bridge the possible frozen depths by methods that we may not really like, so the whole thing dosnt crash and sink into the frozen depths.

Aside from other services online who offer adult content and or even items for sale along side of offering services where by children can utilize the site with adult supervision and enjoy it to some capacity geared just for them, and their parents buying for them, I can think of a huge example where these things occur offline. Actually a few, cause some more just wonked me across my minds eye. Grocery stores and book stores who offer comics and children's books along with Playboy and Forum. Not only that, because you may say well they can do that because they covers those up and put them up out of reach (although it would be supporting cA doing pretty much the same thing) but if you've been in bookstores as of late, there often times is not all too much separation between rather provocative adult oriented content and what even I may bat a lash and say a 13yo should be looking at, little own a 7 yo. Harry Potter graphic novels are but inches from manga's with graphic violence and often times sexual content such as monster / tentacle rape, and but a few feet from that section is a the children edutainment book section, which is right beside the comic book section, where if you read some of the rather grown up comics like some Dark Horse titles there are now and again very adult situations and a few pages of "sexual" content, right beside Dark Wing Duck. We in essence would be providing quadruple if not more protection from that kind of content from our younger members than Book World or Barnes and freakin Noble does. And if push comes to shove, which it hardly ever does and most likely wont, we will show for it enough that the blind ignorance will see.

Never the less, I am aware that that is initially a tricky subject... hence...

We are looking to having two major parts of the service, Adult and Under 18. This is not of particular concern at start because of the complexities of pulling it off and still covering our asses, but I really want to offer a chance for a broader scope of membership and I've had many requests to facilitate something where furry parents can create accounts for their children monitor their use and even upload their art and read back the wonderful feedback they get so they can feel more validated for their skills from the early get go.

Thanks so much for your concerns, and please don't take this as me coming at you in any kind of manner where you should feel defensive. I just want you to know that we are trying to keep on-top of things in a manner and have some experience where we realize the concerns you have here, and to be honest share a lot of your fears and irks, but we are trying to pull it together and come out the other end with a quality service and site for you and everyone else, even ourselves.

Please feel free to answer back and bring up further issues or ask for clarification if I managed to confuse you any, and please mention something that I may have skipped over or you dont feel like I really addressed enough.

Well, first off I wouldn't be so sure about whether you could reverse any conservative laws on these matters anytime soon, no matter how recent they are. I know how back during the early 80s people used to say, "Oh, it might be illegal NOW to simply have a photo of a masturbating younger teen unknown to you in person and that you never created yourself, but let's face it, that law is so ridiculous it can't stand a WEEK!"

It's all a matter of proper irrational demonization and pathologizing in public and in the mass media, especially while the increasing demonization is fueled by increasingly taking away demonization's main focus from gays that these taboos and negative stereotypical labels were originally applied to. The more they're letting the gays off the hook (which is the right thing to do, but today they're making up all the wrong reasons for why they're doing it), the more they'll be going after us instead, to the degree they're even going after lines on paper by now.

And well, I'm not too knowledgable about your situation over there or how accurate your portrayal of the US situation is about this, but there's more than enough places where people can get away with murder and never have to say sorry because they're wearing uniforms. Just think of Operation Ore in the UK recently that also Pete Townshend, guitarrist of The Who got caught in. What started it all was some US site called Landslide that was perfectly legal due to only showing adults and the owner filed some charges about fraud over some money issues, from there US forces sent the issue to the UK due to possible ties, and in the UK the thing got tangled up because the UK law for CP and internet fraud is the same. Among thousands of other people, in 1999 Pete Townshend got on a list for having registered his credit card with Landslide, UK forces later got the whole issue mixed up with CP due to the same law unleashing a tsunami of searches and arrests all over the country (were 5 people or so were actually found in possession of illegal material by sheer coincidence), and the next thing that happened was that hundreds of news outlets were all over Townshend for "dealing in CP".

Under this public pressure, his lawyers talked Townshend into confessing to the press and in court to something he never did because otherwise he'd be painted as "in denial" and the law system as "ineffective" for not holding him accountable over something that never happened. Because no CP was ever found in relation to Landslide OR in Townshend's possession, Townshend was only reprimanded due to his guilt plea, and later he tried to appeal his own plea but failed, so next he tried justifying his alleged crime to the public by writing the three-page online essay A different kind of bomb that next to a lot of hate-spewing came down to, "I can't remember the nights in bomb shelters during Hitler's Blitz, so it must be because the shelter ward must have been touching me, and I only looked at this site to do something against it!"

And Operation Ore isn't the only thing I'm thinking of. In Germany around 2002 or 2003, a journalist called Manfred Karremann reported for the TV channel ZDF and the news magazine Stern about the Arbeitsgemeinschaft Humane Sexualität, a support, therapy, and public representation group for certain people working together with therapists and scientists and officially recognized and registered with state authorities for over a quarter of a century by then, also because of supporting a legal lifestyle and that didn't associate with any lawbreakers. The only thing was that journalist Karremann DIDN'T write that said group was officially recognized and registered with ANYTHING and had therapists and scientists involved, he basically just went, "I've found out about this secret group of kiddy fuckers!" In his reports, he also included stuff about lawbreakers who hadn't anything to do with the AHS group, that were no members there or were associated with it in any way, or that anybody of the AHS people were even aware of. He kept jumping back and fourth between paragraphs, between talking about those "conspirational group meetings" in one paragraph, and in the next he'd just go, "I've met kiddy fucker X who's breaking such and such laws every day, he's showing me his collection of disgusting illegal material and is trying to sell children to me".

What happened after publication of Karremann's reports was that hundreds of AHS members were arrested, ordinary people as well as scientists and therapists. Psychologist Michael Griesemer later reported on some of the arrests he had witnessed, where screaming 5-year-old children of scientists were dragged out of their homes by machine gun-armed SWAT teams with muffles pressed firmly to their little heads, and how a number of the arrested were basically beaten to pulp upon sight by arresting officers. For several weeks, national TV news were filled with "the busting and trial of a large CP network headquartered in Munich". After half a year, the first people were released from pre-trial custody, and about a year to one year and a half later, the trial closed with the lifting of all charges and the Munich court declaring that all search and arrest warrants had been "illegal upon their issuing", albeit none of the authorities ever faced any consequences upon it (a newsbit so irrelevant that outside of legal documents the lifting of all charges and all the rest only appeared in the progressive Sex Politics magazine Gigi). When individual victims tried to press charges against arresting officers, the latter swiftly replied with filing counter-charges on "resisting arrest" with a multitude of officers testimoning for each other on each single case so that all charges by the victims had to be dropped.

What I'm trying to say is, their current attitudes about these things is to shoot first and ask questions later. They prefer to blow off (with great satisfaction) the heads of a thousand innocents just so no potentially guilty individual might "escape" their sense of "justice". The best you'll ever get afterwards is a patronizing, "So what, shit happens...and please, think of the children!" in private.

I'm still not convinced why we MUST invite RL minors to CA when it's perfectly clear to all outsiders that CA only came about because of the FA ban. The only thing I could think of at outmost is two different kinds of accounts, one for adults, one for minors, pretty much like on FA, for what content people are allowed to see. Beyond that, a strict "Don't ask, don't tell" policy about RL age might be in order if it even just comes to those two kinds of accounts.

Am I right in assuming that national localizing is only an issue because you're planning to openly invite RL minors and have them have access to the site? I still don't see any reason for doing that on our side. We're getting our tails burned well enough inside and outside of FA for being into mature cub art to begin with, so a place that came into being particularly for it shouldn't drag attention by openly giving minors access, even if it's just for some general G-rated area. I can fairly live without that, and to be honest, I think anything like that would be insane if we wanna survive. I can't even think of many RL parent furries being okay with mature cub art nowadays, even less of some finding it okay that their own kids have access to sites that are mainly for such. It doesn't matter what we ourselves may think that could be right or wrong from what we see in other places that aren't meant as cub porn places to begin with. If not having minors on our site would mean no necessity of reporting where we're from, all the better.

Also, you keep talking about Canada while Dragoneer said something about mature cub art being definitely illegal in the EU by next summer. Does that mean Europeans are gonna have half a year of access to CA at the outmost? I'm kinda afraid that somebody on EITHER side is gonna overreact to any legal changes on that matter, be it you guys as the management staff being overly cautious to cover your tails, simple members not coming by anymore or potential members not daring to join because they've been led to incorrectly believe they're not allowed to, or authorities trying to trick their way into databases.

Okay, not to be mean or anything but just to hint that what I thought was one of your original intents, you not trying to discourage, my be being countered by your paranoia concerning these matters.

Trust me I don't need recaps on the horrors that have abounded concerning unconventional and controversial art styles and content. And I'm afraid that you're beginning to sound a little too much like a nightmare pusher to those who hardly need their fears encouraged. Also, you are likening us to something that we are not even parallel with, and the more power you lend to conservative ignorance and witch hunting the more I think you undo what I believe it is that you are trying to do. We are well aware of the has beens and what horrors could abound, but we are also aware of how few and far between those incidents you mention occur, especially in the US.

Your opening statement sort of confused me, especially since I struggle to see what it has to do with what we are talking about here, but mostly for not being able to piece together its context as far as your feelings are concerned. Real photo's of underage individuals in sexual situations will get you banned and we will report you to the appropriate authorities. We will also be looking into not allowing full nudity and puting serious consideration into not being able to allow even partial nudity, such as pictures of children not wearing shirts. Every measure we can possibly implement and then some, while maintaining a setting of free speech and expression where it is not otherwise illegal will be put into place.

Like I said, I am both not afraid and afraid, and that has a large reflection on taking wise steps so that those fears are not put on the users where it would impeded their enjoyment of the site and encourage and validate that which is otherwise perfectly fine and good within them, no matter how convincing the extreme right gets.

I think you misunderstood some things, but I'm not really all that sure for the unnecessary horrific history lesson you gave taking up so much of the bulk of what you had to say. I'm not trying to be mean but its harshness and wording was indeed hardly called for here.=, even considering your concern for the preservation and success of the site.

First point... I did not say anything about being sure that conservative laws would change. At best I made mention that there are currently appeals and rallying going on where those restrictive laws were recently put in place, and that seemingly unbeknownst to everyone else these actions could very well end up like they did over here in the states where cartoon pornography in general and simulated kid porn in specific went illegal for a short time before supreme court determined these things to be unconstitutional. A lot of fear concerning the topic here in the USA is that so many people, the lot of them young adults, are aware that these precedents have already been set here in the US. For the most part its just old hat and many times when the conservatives and fundamentalist rant on such as they do in front of the courts these things are dismissed. All be it that recent media circus and sensationalism has brought it to the fore enough where some justices may feel compelled to look into things for fear that if it looks like they are disregarding the matter because its pretty much already been dealt with, that they will not get the support they need from their rich conservative friends. Once upon a time and our time is still within the residual wake of that time, conservatives and fundamentalists had were pretty much the loudest mouthed of the bunch. They have consistently represented a smaller part of society compared to people to the left or people who just let be so long as it doesn't directly harm or threaten them. There is a shift happening though where those who have remained silent have begun to state their say, and the once rather hushed less active left are driven to speak their minds and let it be known how they feel, and not surprisingly enough their opinions are not as aligned with Sarah Palin and companies as what they've thought they led a lot of people to believe. The more and more this majority starts making their voices heard and stop listening to the fear mongering ridicule of the conservatives, the less of a chance these laws have to stand, and the more and more they'll just be dismissed if taken to the people who write the laws of the land. Let me be clear though, I'm not meaning to say that this is a sure fire thing and you can gamble your life and money on it. It's just contrary to what it seems you believe, there are glimmers of light here and there, and I like to be honestly optimistic especially in trying to create what we are trying to create here. We are not going at this haphazardly and or without a caution one, one of the things I feel gives us a good chance is that we do have so much experience concerning these matters, where for instance months back when Dragoneer changed policy on FA not to host shota and loli he consistently expressed not knowing all that much about it and as far as the possibility that it could mean cub porn would eventually not be allowed on the site anymore, because if you're gonna write off one content that is still otherwise not illegal just because its so hot topic controversial, when is the next hot topic controversial art content going to be blocked as well... he could never give a strait answer and always said something like his *coughs* legal team was looking into it. *rolls his eyes*

Second point - part a... I'm almost convinced that you not only missed it where I mention it on the cA user page here on FA, but where I reposted it for you in my last response.

We are looking to having two major parts of the service, Adult and Under 18. This is not of particular concern at start because of the complexities of pulling it off and still covering our asses, but I really want to offer a chance for a broader scope of membership and I've had many requests to facilitate something where furry parents can create accounts for their children monitor their use and even upload their art and read back the wonderful feedback they get so they can feel more validated for their skills from the early get go.

I've really said nothing about there being a mandatory invite for minors on the site.

Second point - part b... I dont know how it is "perfectly clear" to anyone little own "all outsiders" that cA came about because of the FA ban. The idea, as stated in the first part of my original write up about it came about in its more concrete sense just over a year ago, where after deciding on a name for the site that we had been talking about for almost 2 or more years prior, I purchased the domain name. I created the user account here on FA soon after, tell all of your "outsiders" to check on that one, and tell me how its so clear to them that cA only came about because of the recent policy change in FA concerning cub porn. The cub ban on FA occurred suddenly on the 24th and cubAffinity.net was set to auto extend for another year on the 25th having been registered and parked on Godaddy for a year. Just to make sure everything went as planned I went in and took care of that first sign of the trouble on FA. Server space and hashing out details for the virtual reality portion of the site and the web site portion itself occurred around 3 weeks ago, not 3 days ago. Matters concerning controversial content being hosted on the site and making sure it was copasetic with the server owners and hosting site was top priority. And even though they are very much aware of how hot a topic it is in the fandom, their okay of all content so long as it was not illegal happened before I even really considered talking about any more details on the project with them.

cubAffinity is the culmination and sum of about at least 3 and maybe 4 years of mulling over ideas and concepts, the only thing that has brought on its sudden appearance is a recent urgency in certain members here on FA wanting it and maybe its sudden need. I'll admit, a call for its development does have a large part to do with FA and cub porn, or FA and the cub / littlefur / diaperfur sub-culture. Staff have consistently let their true feelings on the subject be known in journals and responses to comments and such and content they've deleted that was otherwise no were near being in violation of TOS or AUP, its just moderators and staff have had problems with our section of the fandom for a long time. So aside from just a general want to make another feature rich cub themed site, there has been a push for its need brewing off from FA for a while, but the extent of that time, contrary to what all those "outsiders" think, is not a matter of a few days. At its very least it is a matter of a few years and I dont know how the contrary can be so clear when their is clearer evidence available that those "outsiders" are just plain wrong.

Second point - part c... About there being a need for two different kinds of accounts...

We are looking to having two major parts of the service, Adult and Under 18. This is not of particular concern at start because of the complexities of pulling it off and still covering our asses, but I really want to offer a chance for a broader scope of membership and I've had many requests to facilitate something where furry parents can create accounts for their children monitor their use and even upload their art and read back the wonderful feedback they get so they can feel more validated for their skills from the early get go.

I really hate to keep doing that but it's really hard for me to understand you feeling its necessary to carry on like you are when I've already touched on those rather critical points so many times already.

Yes this means it would be very much like FA to this regard especially since I've gone on to mention that aside from two letters in the name... [b]FurAffinity x cubAffinity... one of our top priorities and goals is to make cA look and feel like FA, while not plagiarizing and adding and implementing more features so that we will be as much social networking site as we are art site.

Second point - part d... There will be no preemptive circumventing of age restriction policies. Dont ask - dont tell, aside from not wanting to lend any validity to that F'ed up idea in the first place would be right off a way for conservatives to point to us for openly inviting minors to see things that it is not legal for them to see, and we would be opening ourselves up to being nuked out of existence. Not only will we react strictly and swiftly concerning finding out someone lied about there age in order to gain access to adult material when they are under age, but unlike FA or any other site that I know of we will be actively policing the matter. I plan on having staff who will put in a certain amount of time to go through account details compare information with what is on our site to see if someone say for instance admits to their 16th birthday coming up while their account says they are 19, but they will also be comparing accounts on sites like FA, LJ, FX, FB, and the like and if they find that they've listed themselves elsewhere under age we will deal with it immediately.

It's not that I either believe in or dont believe in or otherwise support laws that say someone 16yo's old shouldnt be allowed to make the decision themself to view pornagraphic material, watch adult themed movies, or listen to Eminem rap about chopin off his moms head with a shovel out on 8 mile in Detroit because he was strong out on crack one night and thought she was fag ass Michael Jackson. Its that I am down right serious about the site being absolutely law abiding so that we show that we are not about breaking the law or supporting criminal activity. I see this in being one of the key foundations in having a site where we support an environment as safe as possible and with some backbone and able to stand against sensationalistic backlash for hosting controversial material. If it is not illegal, we can do it if we want, we should feel free to do it if we want, and I will not have a site where I encourage artists to let it go and such, where fear mongering is going on and they are scared to post content that is not illegal.

Third point - part a... Assuming is honestly a sketchy road to follow just in its general sense. That being said, you are sort of right and sort of wrong in your assumption concerning what you are calling "national localizing". As I've said before, the primary reason we are going to "nation block" like we "age block" is because I want to form a solid presentation and be able to point, if it ever becomes necessary to policy and procedures that prove that we are have every intent to be a law abiding service. No other site that I know of actively makes sure they are abiding by other countries laws by restricting access to content that is illegal in those countries. FA allows people in other countries to view content that is illegal in those countries, namely cub pr0nz, and doesn't do anything to stop it but say that it is the responsibility of the individual to not utilize the site in an illegal manner. That's all fine and dandy, especially because really that is the only extent that they are mandated to go to concerning the matter, and they really cant be held accountable for babysitting adults and making sure they are not looking at things they are not supposed to... But, not only that they go so far as to offer their services to host and distribute cub porn for artists in Canada and China for instance, and its not all that difficult to see how this is more than somewhat a can of worms in that even an open minded liberal such as myself can see that as maybe being accessory to the criminal act. Being that its more than likely best called a huge ass grey area, its something that we will be implementing policy and procedure for, well in excess of what we are otherwise legally mandated to do.

It only has part to do with the matter that we plans for parts of the site where we will offer "safe" content for RL miners and those who otherwise are not allowed to look at the adult content because of where they live.

To that regard though I would like to mention that we will be encouraging artists and content creators to upload a fair share of content so that the site is very enjoyable even to those who can not access the adult section of the site. It is not our goal to be anywhere close to being primarily a cub porn hosting site.

Third point - part b... Having been active to these regards and concerns for well over a decade or two and for those who are collaborating with me, the only way we can really see ourselves getting our tails burned is if we call people like Dragoneer and the higher Staff and there massive flock of yes critters who believe they can do nor say anything wrong on FA the leading authority on these matters. Saying what you said there would be like saying the gay community is being beaten to a pulp by the goings on of the Souther Baptist Convention or that we have to rethink our strategies because Fred Phelps is gaining so much ground he may be president soon. The gods to honest truth is that these people are a minority and its high time we start treating them as such. I mean its America, go red, white, and blue all patriotic and shit and let them have their place and their say, but stop acting all scared and stuff like they have even an iota of actually knowing what they are talking about. I feel that it would do you well to take a breath and stop lending so much credit to their ranting and raving being all that powerful. Once upon a time they could speak and it was pretty much just automatically written as law, but that time is fading fast and almost to the point of being forgotten. Really, I know things could still surprisingly go really wrong and all, but it is more than evident that the chances of those kind of things happening now-a-days are a lot slimmer than they were 5 or 10 years ago.

Third point - part c... I can think of more than a few RL parents or parents to be who are perfectly okay with controversial art content, even namely cub pr0nz. I would ponder myself possibly mistaken in the matter if I didn't know so many people who feel the same, but contrary to what it seems you feel there are actually lots of people our there who are sensible enough to understand that drawn or arted cub pron is anywhere close to being an okay to actually sexually abuse children. In fact, most of them dont feel that way. For example, just in the fandom, if the majority felt the same way as the minority who rants and goes on about how wrong cub pr0nz are Soft Paw magazine would have never come close to being the success it was. There would have not been one avenue or venue for that matter that they could have sought to achieve what they ended up achieving. Eventually all of 3 or 4 big name venues said that they could not support the sale of Soft Paw magazine at their con / events, not because they felt any reservations concerning the content of the magazine but because the feared not the authorities, but the mob ranting of the media and that kind of blacklash having an adverse effect on their current attendees and then their ability to host the events again in the future. Even still everyone else allowed it and not really any of that majority who allowed it at there venues and events, if any, really had to deal with what the others feared would befall them. This is a real world example, current and happening almost in real time. This kind of data seems to be overlooked by so many people who seem rather to feel a need to cower and listen to the fear mongering ignorance of the cub haters and people who think there should be limitations on freedom of speech and expression as far as other content is concerned.

Plain and simple fact, the majority could really care less about it because they cant see it and do see it as something that causes immediate harm or threat there off, and the other part of the populace, both in the fandom and out, which is still pretty much larger than the part that is against it, has the sense enough to know that things like cub pr0nz and other controversial and taboo art and expression, even down to active paraphilias and kinks / fetishes, are not something to go on and on and on off your rocker over about, or even to be feared in the least.

Also, I think you are mistaken if you think we're stupid enough to outright advertise ourselves like we mean to be the home of debauchery and everything Rush Limbaugh says is wrong with the world. We are not meant to be a "cub porn place", anymore than FA or ruPadded are "meant to be cub porn places".

Fourth point - part a... I'm do not understand how you surmise that I keep talking about Canada and the context that it seems there would be that much of a problem with you if I actually did. I've mentioned Canada along with countries like the UK, Australia, and Germany for being where I am aware that cub porn falls into a category where it is currently illegal, or in the case of Germany, has been for sometime. I think you are misinterpreting my use of Canada by example so much because honestly I know a little bit more about it than the other countries, have a bit more experience concerning it, and its a whole hell of a lot closer to me than any other government body.

Fourth point - part b... If Dragoneer claimed enough know on the matter to determine that mature cub art will definitely illegal in the European Nations by next Summer, this would be a perfect example concerning how he should be trusted as if he is a leading source in the matter. Even political and government editorial writers and commentators would never, in their right minds at least, say anything like "definitely", "for absolute sure", "100%", "without a doubt". Where in heavens name does he come up thinking he knows the situation enough to say something like that with such conviction that it may as well be gospel?

Honestly, who died and made him know it all, at least so that I should listen to him.

To be truthful my friend, its probably going to be better to quote from encyclopedia dramatica as your key source of truth than it is to go on like the lot of us are going to offer too much validity to the sermons of his priestliness Dragoneer.

That being said, and I'm not to sure about it without pulling it up and doing a thrice over, but more sure than believing what Dragoneer concerning the matter, but I think that the way those recent laws have been written, cub porn is already illegal in the European Union at least within the borders of the United Kingdom proper.

I would of course be more sure and clear about that before determining that someone listing that they live in the EU and or the UK specifically be blocked from being able to see content that it is illegal for them to see.

Also, this restriction and policy will most likely be in effect long before we implement part of the service geared towards RL children.

Which brings me to... where we will offer "safe" content for RL miners and those who otherwise are not allowed to look at the adult content because of where they live.

To that regard though I would like to mention that we will be encouraging artists and content creators to upload a fair share of content so that the site is very enjoyable even to those who can not access the adult section of the site. It is not our goal to be anywhere close to being primarily a cub porn hosting site.

Third point - part b... Having been active to these regards and concerns for well over a decade or two and for those who are collaborating with me, the only way we can really see ourselves getting our tails burned is if we call people like Dragoneer and the higher Staff and there massive flock of yes critters who believe they can do nor say anything wrong on FA the leading authority on these matters. Saying what you said there would be like saying the gay community is being beaten to a pulp by the goings on of the Souther Baptist Convention or that we have to rethink our strategies because Fred Phelps is gaining so much ground he may be president soon. The gods to honest truth is that these people are a minority and its high time we start treating them as such. I mean its America, go red, white, and blue all patriotic and shit and let them have their place and their say, but stop acting all scared and stuff like they have even an iota of actually knowing what they are talking about. I feel that it would do you well to take a breath and stop lending so much credit to their ranting and raving being all that powerful. Once upon a time they could speak and it was pretty much just automatically written as law, but that time is fading fast and almost to the point of being forgotten. Really, I know things could still surprisingly go really wrong and all, but it is more than evident that the chances of those kind of things happening now-a-days are a lot slimmer than they were 5 or 10 years ago.

Third point - part c... I can think of more than a few RL parents or parents to be who are perfectly okay with controversial art content, even namely cub pr0nz. I would ponder myself possibly mistaken in the matter if I didn't know so many people who feel the same, but contrary to what it seems you feel there are actually lots of people our there who are sensible enough to understand that drawn or arted cub pron is anywhere close to being an okay to actually sexually abuse children. In fact, most of them dont feel that way. For example, just in the fandom, if the majority felt the same way as the minority who rants and goes on about how wrong cub pr0nz are Soft Paw magazine would have never come close to being the success it was. There would have not been one avenue or venue for that matter that they could have sought to achieve what they ended up achieving. Eventually all of 3 or 4 big name venues said that they could not support the sale of Soft Paw magazine at their con / events, not because they felt any reservations concerning the content of the magazine but because the feared not the authorities, but the mob ranting of the media and that kind of blacklash having an adverse effect on their current attendees and then their ability to host the events again in the future. Even still everyone else allowed it and not really any of that majority who allowed it at there venues and events, if any, really had to deal with what the others feared would befall them. This is a real world example, current and happening almost in real time. This kind of data seems to be overlooked by so many people who seem rather to feel a need to cower and listen to the fear mongering ignorance of the cub haters and people who think there should be limitations on freedom of speech and expression as far as other content is concerned.

Plain and simple fact, the majority could really care less about it because they cant see it and do see it as something that causes immediate harm or threat there off, and the other part of the populace, both in the fandom and out, which is still pretty much larger than the part that is against it, has the sense enough to know that things like cub pr0nz and other controversial and taboo art and expression, even down to active paraphilias and kinks / fetishes, are not something to go on and on and on off your rocker over about, or even to be feared in the least.

Also, I think you are mistaken if you think we're stupid enough to outright advertise ourselves like we mean to be the home of debauchery and everything Rush Limbaugh says is wrong with the world. We are not meant to be a "cub porn place", anymore than FA or ruPadded are "meant to be cub porn places".

Fourth point - part a... I'm do not understand how you surmise that I keep talking about Canada and the context that it seems there would be that much of a problem with you if I actually did. I've mentioned Canada along with countries like the UK, Australia, and Germany for being where I am aware that cub porn falls into a category where it is currently illegal, or in the case of Germany, has been for sometime. I think you are misinterpreting my use of Canada by example so much because honestly I know a little bit more about it than the other countries, have a bit more experience concerning it, and its a whole hell of a lot closer to me than any other government body.

Fourth point - part b... If Dragoneer claimed enough know on the matter to determine that mature cub art will definitely illegal in the European Nations by next Summer, this would be a perfect example concerning how he should be trusted as if he is a leading source in the matter. Even political and government editorial writers and commentators would never, in their right minds at least, say anything like "definitely", "for absolute sure", "100%", "without a doubt". Where in heavens name does he come up thinking he knows the situation enough to say something like that with such conviction that it may as well be gospel?

Honestly, who died and made him know it all, at least so that I should listen to him.

To be truthful my friend, its probably going to be better to quote from encyclopedia dramatica as your key source of truth than it is to go on like the lot of us are going to offer too much validity to the sermons of his priestliness Dragoneer.

That being said, and I'm not to sure about it without pulling it up and doing a thrice over, but more sure than believing what Dragonner concerning the matter, but I think that the way those recent laws have been written, cub porn is already illegal in the the EU or at least within the borders of the UK "proper".

I would of course be more sure and as clear on the particular matter before restricting members in those jurisdictions to the non adult part of the site.

The non adult part of the site will most likely be implemented long before we set up for children accessing the site, if we even end up doing that. Remember, its not a "MUST DO" thing.

Which brings me to...

Fourth point - part c... If it is illegal in the country a member reports they live in or otherwise use the site in, it will not amount to them having half a year access to adult content on the site, they will not be allowed access to the part of the site that has adult content in it unless it becomes not illegal in their country, this means from the get go. You make it sound like we will not accept their membership at all on cA, but on the contrary we want to offer them a fun and useful site as well. So they will have access to the site upfront and past half a year, just not the part/s of the site with content on it that is illegal in their country. We will also be policing the matter and dealing with people who lied about their origin of access and I really want to look into something that will flag us as to where the account is accessing the site from and just automatically restricting use to the pg - pg13 part of the site if the server detects a user trying to access the site from a "restricted" jurisdiction. This way we can actively keep people from breaking these laws inadvertently or on purpose should they travel from a place where its legal into a place where it is illegal.

Note though, if they are under age "13 to 18" just like FA and what is common pretty much elsewhere, or if they are in a "restricted" jurisdiction, it does not mean they will not be allowed to access cA.

Fourth point - part d... I'm not to sure your the fears you mention in your final statement are all that well founded. Mostly because it seems you were teetering out and tired by then. It just very hard to understand at that point.

---

Like I said before my friend, to more than enough of an extent I understand your concerns completely, but really what we are trying to do here with cA isn't as daring or risky a task as it seems you think it is. Then on top of that, its not like we are a bunch of inexperience 16yo throwing caution to the wind and not giving a fuck about laws and regulations and such and for spite of authority.

Not only do I understand your concerns, but even more so I appreciate them. But that being said I think any particular continuation of this discussion I would like taken to private messages. I hope you understand and I hope you dont see it as me covering anything up really or silencing you, because its not that at all.

It's mostly that I like things to be much finer and refined, and this has gone from a short status message to being a topic / forum discussion thread.

Okay, I'm sorry. I probably shouldn't be scaring people away. I just don't want anybody get hurt.

Moving to PM now.

I know. Have a little faith. United we stand, divided by horror, fear, and otherwise being scared shitless we fall.

Been up almost 24 hours workin at this, so I'm gonna check in and get back with you and that PM tomorrow. I know you care, and I'll thank you again for your concerns. Hopefully you'll rest well and have a good night when you take you turn at slumber.

Be well.

To clarify in short, since it is more than obvious from recent posts you've made concerning the issue...

To that regard, "so long as it is not against the law" means within the jurisdiction hosting the site, which would be the state of Texas, United States of America, but... Since there will be "controversial" content hosted on the site, members will have to list the country they are accessing the site from, and will only be allowed access to the PG - PG-13 part of the site if they indicate they are in a nation that it is against the law to view or otherwise have on ones computer any of the content that could be found in the adult section of the site, this would include jurisdictions such as but not limited to Canada, the UK, and Germany.

Or, "national localization", as you call it, means "all adult members must register with their RL address."

I'm not too worried about the situation because I have faith that the bulk of people getting involved will read what has been said and see no sign of anything that says we will require all adult members to register with their rl address, and for what its worth your lacking capability to understand, willingness to twist words, or just that you care little enough to get your facts strait before you utter a bold face lie. I dont know which one of those it was, but I'm still hoping its just misunderstanding, but saying ...

He just kept telling me that it's alright because of age blocks restricting minors to G-rated areas of the site AND because all adult members must register with their RL address.

And...

I told him [there was] no need for adult members to register with their RL address

And...

he just kept repeating that it's alright because of age blocks and because they're gonna "co-operate with the authorities".

Has no basis in truth.

First and foremost there was never ever any mention of anything anywhere close to saying that we will require all adult members to register their real address.

So...

Second of all, that means you could have never said anything about that particular matter to me, which you didnt.

And...

Third of all, that means I couldn't have ever kept repeating myself about something like collecting addresses as part of age restrictions.

What was actually repeated was that we intend on implementing a restriction structure that supersedes what FA or any other site that we know of has done whereby we will restrict users who register as being in a nation that its illegal to view or upload cub porn or any other content to be found on our site that is legal here but not elsewhere to a section of the site where that content will not be posted, and that if and when - if and when - if we decide to allow access to our site for people 13 - 18, or even if and only if we've hashed things out and can do something where children under the age of 13 can use the site with an adult present (understanding of course the complexities in such) and all those things considered still... if and when we were to have a part of the site available for individuals under the age of 18 then age and location restriction would be limited to the same part of the site.

To me, it starts sounding a bit like some cover-up operation to round up all people into cub porn in one place, and then start passing out their RL addresses to the authorities.

My concern is rather that he DOESN'T work for NAMBLA but for the OTHER side, think of something like Wikissposure, for instance.

Have to admit, that made me laugh, cause you have to be joking!