Ranting Vs Debate.
14 years ago
I would like to start off with the not so obvious. I want to say that I've never honestly disliked Runa, I've never hated him. Sure I've never loved him but he was on my like list. No matter what rumors I heard, or what close friends who lived with him, or were visited by him said, I always kept him on the ok scale. Hell right now I don't hate him, but I'm a bit confused at his actions. Well... I've always been a bit confused, but more so now than before.
Today I responded to a question in his latest rant journal, masked as a debate. All he seems to like to do these days is argue with people, call it debate then tell everyone they are wrong, well colorfully and with much name calling. In response to my answer, he put me on his block list. I guess that's how he handles facts, and truth, that he can't argue with.
It's not the first time I've "argued" with him openly, but it appears he can't handle it and the answer from the "open minded" person he is, I'm now not able to reply to him through FA. While his accounts show as not blocked on chats, I wouldn't put it passed him to block those also.
Now why on earth would I go through the trouble of mentioning this publicly instead of just taking it up with him if I wasn't attention whoring? Well simple. I won't be brushed under some censorship rug and covered. He claims to be open minded and a very epic debater. Yet when he "argues" with someone he can't possibly make see his own way, he normally reverts to name calling and turning the original debate into a rant of personal attacks. Which he's done both times I've attempted to calmly debate back a bit, or simply answer his question.
I think the man has potential as a person, but his childish ranting is getting in his way. Though it does appear that he has a following of people who very thoroughly enjoy his rants, and how he ostracizes people who happen chance to reply to his posts with anything other than complete agreeance to what he states as fact.
It was this very behavior that cost him a job he loved so dearly. Go read his journals he talks about it openly, I'm not trying to attack him stating this. I actually hope he reads it, and uses it as self assessment. But I presume his only reaction would be to flame me here, or write a rant on his own journal. Very possibly in that online community he started up so he could pretend to have the same environment he had when he was a forum moderator. Power over others is something most people crave on some level, and some people just find their outlets online.
This journal is only my reply back to Runa, you can say it's my view on his tactics. I'm definitely not trying to get people to stop liking him, I just truly wish that he'd wake up. He treats people like crap, then blames them for his problems.
To Runa, I still don't dislike you, but to hide my comments and block me from your journals..... seriously, isn't that considered childish? I didn't attack you, hell I didn't even bring out all your dirty laundry and air it for all to see. I made some points and let you decide for yourself. When it became clearer than day, that what I was saying wasn't hitting home I bid you ado and was going to leave it at that. When I realized you were censoring me out, for no real reason other than I didn't agree with you, and you had no chance to "convert" me.... well I won't be censored like that.
So here is the journal, in the event he removes the whole thing over this one.
Getting So Sick of This
Journal Entry: February 28th, 2011 02:16PM
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/2132666/
You know what I can't stand? People who try to get into a 'debate' with me and whine because 'I always have to be right', then accuse me of being arrogant, egotistical, and generally an ass because I 'always think I'm right about everything.'
Call me out on it if I'm wrong, but isn't the point of debate to argue a point that you think is right? Or at the very least can support with facts and evidence and examples to further your side? I can't speak for everyone else, but I surely know I don't get into a heated discussion unless I'm right, or at least have very good reason to believe I'm right. Am I always right? Hell no, nobody can be right all the time and a lot of what I argue can come down to opinion...but the worst thing to deal with is people who present their opinions as fact, and get all bent out of shape when you tell them they're wrong.
Case in Point: “This movie sucks” is a statement. “I think this movie sucks” or “I hate this movie” are opinions. People on the whole need to learn to tell the difference between the two, and stop getting butthurt when I call you on it. No, I am not some grammar nazi obsessing over punctuation, but is it really so much to ask that you learn to speak or write the language you've spent your entire life with? When you say “this movie sucks”, and I come up with a series of proofs to the contrary, that's not me 'always having to be right' or 'putting my opinion over yours', I'm correcting your faulty statement. Falling back on the “it's just my opinion” argument doesn't work when it wasn't presented as an opinion but a fact.
I'm just so sick of people getting pissed off at me over this on EVERYTHING. Sure, I could just drop it and let people be fucking retarded not knowing the difference between expressing opinion and statement of fact, but it drives me fucking insane (if I wasn't already institutionalized and just didn't know it). It's even more frustrating when people I consider my friends go on the offensive about my arrogance when I do this to them. It's even worse when they do so when they're making an incorrect statement and are simply ignorant.
How to Train your Dragon was NOT a better film than Toy Story 3. I loved it, but when you weigh out the factors if setting, characters, narrative, story, script, animation, and plot....the only thing the dragon movie had better was the animation quality (seriously, unmatched animation). Just because YOU were able to enjoy the dragon movie more doesn't make it a better film. Just because some people agree with you doesn't mean that it's objectively true.
Plot and Story are NOT the same thing. The plot is strictly the series of events happening in a book, movie, game, etc. Plots are reused. Story is the combined sum of the plot, setting, characters, etc. Stories are rarely recycled, but plots endure through the ages.
Just because YOU like circumcised males and YOU experienced the event doesn't mean it's right for everyone to do it. No matter how much you argue the pros of it, the fact is that there's no scientific evidence supporting it and you run the risk of desensitizing the penis...and should you change your mind later in life, it's easy to cut the skin off, it's NOT easy to regrow it.
The Xbox is NOT inherently superior. If you like it better, good for you, that doesn't make it better. Objectively, the PS3 beats it out of the water by almost all objective forms of analysis.
Avatar is NOT a horrible movie just because it's plot wasn't original. It was a remarkably well made film that revolutionized modern cinema whether you like it or not.
I'm so sick of dealing with people arguing with me with faulty logic and incorrect statements, only to turn onto the offensive acting like I'm the one in the wrong for explaining to them why they're wrong. You know who resorts to this bullshit? People who don't know how to debate.
Your opinion does not equal fact, and if you're simply expressing your opinion, learn to do so properly or deal with the backlash that comes from stating your opinion as fact.
My reply.
Actually people would call you arrogant and egotistical, well... you basically outline those reasons above. You don't debate, you scream and rant. You call it debate, but debate isn't out right telling someone you don't care what they are saying because it's wrong, you instead make your case, they make theirs and you continue until it's either apparent that the conversation is going no where, until you call a truce, or until either side gives up. This would be one main reason I just walked away from your sexuality "debate" it wasn't a debate, it was you griping and essentially condemning people for not seeing it your way.
You are also quicker to jump to outright name calling, which has nothing to do with debate. That's personal, and once you go there, any and all possible debate, just ended. It's a rant.
That was the answer to your question.
As to HTTYD being better than TS3, well OSCARS haven't been won in decades on merit alone, if your movie didn't pay a fee and scout/lobby for your movie, you won't win. My vote was for HTTYD.
And yeah, my opinion was Avatar was a VERY horrible movie. Though worth a watch, not worth buying, and NOT worth 3D pricing. It's FACT that Avatar was shot in 2D and then "converted" to 3D to gain the higher priced 3D tickets.
His retort.....
wow, you don't know me at all, do you? Just some shell of a personality you've gotten from very little interaction with me. Well, go right ahead, think what you want, you're well off the mark when it comes to me. Then again, most people are.
I get along flawlessly with people who aren't closeminded "my experiences dictate utter truth" people, and 90% of the people I talk with agree that, while I have strong opinions, I'm never pushy unless the person I'm talking with is an ignorant cunt.
Consider my actions a reflection of yourself. if you see that in me, it's because that's how you treat me. that's always been the way I am.
My response again......
I want to thank you, for once again proving my point for me. I merely answered your question and that's your reply. Bravo. It would appear I know you better than you want to give me credit. Probably due to knowing how you were in your previous employment, knowing the people you used to room with, and actually meeting you in person and getting to see your habbits, and how you act/behave around others.
Of course I don't hate or despise you. But all one has to do is read back through your journal posts here to see what I said. Or heck, even read some of the things you post on other people's submissions/journals. It's not just what you are saying, but how you say it. You get a bit pushy with anyone who hasn't started agreeing with you by the second or third postings. And by what you just said that makes them an "ignorant cunt"....... hmmm. Ok.
I know how you'll reply to this, in the same fashion as your previous reply, or just like the replies to the other "debates" you attempted to hold that turned into full fledge rants. So once again, I will have to bid you adieu as it was only my intent to answer your question and then voice my sincere opinion on the two movies you mentioned. It was never my intent to participate in a rant. Bye bye now.
At this point my replies were hidden by Runa and I was blocked ;p Open minded indeed.
Once again. I would really like to state, I'm not looking to start an anti-Runa group or anything. I just don't feel right about posting my reply to him without backing it up with some well, for lack of better terms "evidence" or "supporting documentation".
Feel free to believe I'm a complete ass, or feel free to believe he needs to do a re-assessment, either case, I'm not honestly looking to debate this, start any kind of flame war or get other people's panties in a bunch.
Personally I hope he finds a better path in life.
Today I responded to a question in his latest rant journal, masked as a debate. All he seems to like to do these days is argue with people, call it debate then tell everyone they are wrong, well colorfully and with much name calling. In response to my answer, he put me on his block list. I guess that's how he handles facts, and truth, that he can't argue with.
It's not the first time I've "argued" with him openly, but it appears he can't handle it and the answer from the "open minded" person he is, I'm now not able to reply to him through FA. While his accounts show as not blocked on chats, I wouldn't put it passed him to block those also.
Now why on earth would I go through the trouble of mentioning this publicly instead of just taking it up with him if I wasn't attention whoring? Well simple. I won't be brushed under some censorship rug and covered. He claims to be open minded and a very epic debater. Yet when he "argues" with someone he can't possibly make see his own way, he normally reverts to name calling and turning the original debate into a rant of personal attacks. Which he's done both times I've attempted to calmly debate back a bit, or simply answer his question.
I think the man has potential as a person, but his childish ranting is getting in his way. Though it does appear that he has a following of people who very thoroughly enjoy his rants, and how he ostracizes people who happen chance to reply to his posts with anything other than complete agreeance to what he states as fact.
It was this very behavior that cost him a job he loved so dearly. Go read his journals he talks about it openly, I'm not trying to attack him stating this. I actually hope he reads it, and uses it as self assessment. But I presume his only reaction would be to flame me here, or write a rant on his own journal. Very possibly in that online community he started up so he could pretend to have the same environment he had when he was a forum moderator. Power over others is something most people crave on some level, and some people just find their outlets online.
This journal is only my reply back to Runa, you can say it's my view on his tactics. I'm definitely not trying to get people to stop liking him, I just truly wish that he'd wake up. He treats people like crap, then blames them for his problems.
To Runa, I still don't dislike you, but to hide my comments and block me from your journals..... seriously, isn't that considered childish? I didn't attack you, hell I didn't even bring out all your dirty laundry and air it for all to see. I made some points and let you decide for yourself. When it became clearer than day, that what I was saying wasn't hitting home I bid you ado and was going to leave it at that. When I realized you were censoring me out, for no real reason other than I didn't agree with you, and you had no chance to "convert" me.... well I won't be censored like that.
So here is the journal, in the event he removes the whole thing over this one.
Getting So Sick of This
Journal Entry: February 28th, 2011 02:16PM
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/2132666/
You know what I can't stand? People who try to get into a 'debate' with me and whine because 'I always have to be right', then accuse me of being arrogant, egotistical, and generally an ass because I 'always think I'm right about everything.'
Call me out on it if I'm wrong, but isn't the point of debate to argue a point that you think is right? Or at the very least can support with facts and evidence and examples to further your side? I can't speak for everyone else, but I surely know I don't get into a heated discussion unless I'm right, or at least have very good reason to believe I'm right. Am I always right? Hell no, nobody can be right all the time and a lot of what I argue can come down to opinion...but the worst thing to deal with is people who present their opinions as fact, and get all bent out of shape when you tell them they're wrong.
Case in Point: “This movie sucks” is a statement. “I think this movie sucks” or “I hate this movie” are opinions. People on the whole need to learn to tell the difference between the two, and stop getting butthurt when I call you on it. No, I am not some grammar nazi obsessing over punctuation, but is it really so much to ask that you learn to speak or write the language you've spent your entire life with? When you say “this movie sucks”, and I come up with a series of proofs to the contrary, that's not me 'always having to be right' or 'putting my opinion over yours', I'm correcting your faulty statement. Falling back on the “it's just my opinion” argument doesn't work when it wasn't presented as an opinion but a fact.
I'm just so sick of people getting pissed off at me over this on EVERYTHING. Sure, I could just drop it and let people be fucking retarded not knowing the difference between expressing opinion and statement of fact, but it drives me fucking insane (if I wasn't already institutionalized and just didn't know it). It's even more frustrating when people I consider my friends go on the offensive about my arrogance when I do this to them. It's even worse when they do so when they're making an incorrect statement and are simply ignorant.
How to Train your Dragon was NOT a better film than Toy Story 3. I loved it, but when you weigh out the factors if setting, characters, narrative, story, script, animation, and plot....the only thing the dragon movie had better was the animation quality (seriously, unmatched animation). Just because YOU were able to enjoy the dragon movie more doesn't make it a better film. Just because some people agree with you doesn't mean that it's objectively true.
Plot and Story are NOT the same thing. The plot is strictly the series of events happening in a book, movie, game, etc. Plots are reused. Story is the combined sum of the plot, setting, characters, etc. Stories are rarely recycled, but plots endure through the ages.
Just because YOU like circumcised males and YOU experienced the event doesn't mean it's right for everyone to do it. No matter how much you argue the pros of it, the fact is that there's no scientific evidence supporting it and you run the risk of desensitizing the penis...and should you change your mind later in life, it's easy to cut the skin off, it's NOT easy to regrow it.
The Xbox is NOT inherently superior. If you like it better, good for you, that doesn't make it better. Objectively, the PS3 beats it out of the water by almost all objective forms of analysis.
Avatar is NOT a horrible movie just because it's plot wasn't original. It was a remarkably well made film that revolutionized modern cinema whether you like it or not.
I'm so sick of dealing with people arguing with me with faulty logic and incorrect statements, only to turn onto the offensive acting like I'm the one in the wrong for explaining to them why they're wrong. You know who resorts to this bullshit? People who don't know how to debate.
Your opinion does not equal fact, and if you're simply expressing your opinion, learn to do so properly or deal with the backlash that comes from stating your opinion as fact.
My reply.
Actually people would call you arrogant and egotistical, well... you basically outline those reasons above. You don't debate, you scream and rant. You call it debate, but debate isn't out right telling someone you don't care what they are saying because it's wrong, you instead make your case, they make theirs and you continue until it's either apparent that the conversation is going no where, until you call a truce, or until either side gives up. This would be one main reason I just walked away from your sexuality "debate" it wasn't a debate, it was you griping and essentially condemning people for not seeing it your way.
You are also quicker to jump to outright name calling, which has nothing to do with debate. That's personal, and once you go there, any and all possible debate, just ended. It's a rant.
That was the answer to your question.
As to HTTYD being better than TS3, well OSCARS haven't been won in decades on merit alone, if your movie didn't pay a fee and scout/lobby for your movie, you won't win. My vote was for HTTYD.
And yeah, my opinion was Avatar was a VERY horrible movie. Though worth a watch, not worth buying, and NOT worth 3D pricing. It's FACT that Avatar was shot in 2D and then "converted" to 3D to gain the higher priced 3D tickets.
His retort.....
wow, you don't know me at all, do you? Just some shell of a personality you've gotten from very little interaction with me. Well, go right ahead, think what you want, you're well off the mark when it comes to me. Then again, most people are.
I get along flawlessly with people who aren't closeminded "my experiences dictate utter truth" people, and 90% of the people I talk with agree that, while I have strong opinions, I'm never pushy unless the person I'm talking with is an ignorant cunt.
Consider my actions a reflection of yourself. if you see that in me, it's because that's how you treat me. that's always been the way I am.
My response again......
I want to thank you, for once again proving my point for me. I merely answered your question and that's your reply. Bravo. It would appear I know you better than you want to give me credit. Probably due to knowing how you were in your previous employment, knowing the people you used to room with, and actually meeting you in person and getting to see your habbits, and how you act/behave around others.
Of course I don't hate or despise you. But all one has to do is read back through your journal posts here to see what I said. Or heck, even read some of the things you post on other people's submissions/journals. It's not just what you are saying, but how you say it. You get a bit pushy with anyone who hasn't started agreeing with you by the second or third postings. And by what you just said that makes them an "ignorant cunt"....... hmmm. Ok.
I know how you'll reply to this, in the same fashion as your previous reply, or just like the replies to the other "debates" you attempted to hold that turned into full fledge rants. So once again, I will have to bid you adieu as it was only my intent to answer your question and then voice my sincere opinion on the two movies you mentioned. It was never my intent to participate in a rant. Bye bye now.
At this point my replies were hidden by Runa and I was blocked ;p Open minded indeed.
Once again. I would really like to state, I'm not looking to start an anti-Runa group or anything. I just don't feel right about posting my reply to him without backing it up with some well, for lack of better terms "evidence" or "supporting documentation".
Feel free to believe I'm a complete ass, or feel free to believe he needs to do a re-assessment, either case, I'm not honestly looking to debate this, start any kind of flame war or get other people's panties in a bunch.
Personally I hope he finds a better path in life.
FA+

Getting back to the subject of debate, how it's usually done is exactly how I started - sharing opinions. Now there may or may not result in a meeting of the minds, but this seems to be a fault in the communications between you two. It seems the other party is insistent upon agreement, and that furthermore he "wins" the debate or argument.
Mind you, arguments are also meant to exchange thoughts and opinion, and when participated in properly, the other side LISTENS. Doesn't mean they have to agree, but if they ignore - well, what is the point of continuing? Might as well talk to a brick wall if there's no interest in listening to contrary or even slightly different points of view.
Take the case of two eye witnesses to a car accident. Each one can have their absolute truth of what they saw, but still an incomplete picture because of their relative position to the accident. Only once they confer with each other, can they realize why this odd thing happened they barely noticed, and together form a more coherent and complete view of the incident.
This is one good productive purpose of debate, argument, or conference. If there's no point other than just beating one's chest and saying "Look how authoritative I am!" that is not an argument; it's just starting a pissing contest, and although you've got the penis for it, I can understand you wanting to use it for better things.
Honestly, I skipped over the quotes since I know people like how you have described him. Those sorts of people are not merely childish in their minds, but in spirit as well. They have not had the nourishment to grow up properly.
I could say more but I will refrain for the moment.
Now, don't make me get the whippy stick...at least not for this. The whippy stick isn't fun when I have to use it for real punishment.
The only difference between you and me is that you go for formal, professional personal attacks while I prefer to keep mine vague and informal, spouting off whatever comes to mind. We're both stubbourn, arrogant bastards with strong opinions. You claim I'm not openminded, but you couldn't be more wrong. the issue is that there's very little I haven't already considered and factored into my opinions, and I can separate my opinions and facts.
Fact: Avatar was a phenomenally well made movie that revolutionized cinema in spite of its writing shortcomings.
Opinion: Avatar is one of the best films of all time.
that's the different between being objective and subjective...and I forget where I was going with this, so I'm carrying on now.
I know precisely what I do well and what I do poorly, I'm far more self aware than anyone I know, I know what I do right and do wrong and your claims that I "resort to name-calling" is flat out false. Normally I'd deconstruct every statement you've made and prove you wrong at every turn, then politely ask you to go away and leave me alone, but the fact is it'd be a waste of time since you're every bit as arrogant and closeminded as you claim me to be, so it would be like headbutting a brick wall, a total waste of time.
That's why I stopped actually putting effort into my debates: it's a waste of time. you'll never see it, same as a lot of people here on FA. there are hundreds of people online I talk to that agree: "you're not an ass unless people are being an ass to you."
"I'm afraid it's H-in-A-D."
"What does that mean?"
*dramatic look* "Head in Ass Disorder."
Seriously thought, I have to agree with you here. I don't know this guy, but it seems like he's completely oblivious. He goes off about people presenting their opinions as facts, then spends the last quarter of the journal doing exactly that.
I used to be known for my amazing ability to carry a discussion about any topic, and having a scarily open mind, but the more I deal with internet knowitalls, the less effort I put into it like I used to. When you're dealing with a collective that thinks they know more than they actually do and refuse to acknowledge let alone give credit to an opinion not their own, your hope in finding intelligent discussion withers. Seriously, some people are just plain stupid, and think they're smart.
When you don't understand the subtle differences in language between "I hate this movie, I think it sucks" and "this movie sucks" and the impressions you give off, then it's hard to have a debate, hence my initial rant.
And I blocked Ssvanti because that last "debate" he had with me was about sexuality. He argued that since he was able to effectively change his sexuality, that anyone could do it and it was just a matter of willpower. I explained to him that not everyone could do what he did, and it was more likely he was bisexual but given his upbringing he completely shied away from gay stuff (hardcore traditionalist parents, he said), but with me, I've been trying for 10 years to go gay to no avail. Sexuality is sexuality, you can't escape it, and there's a popular theory that most people are actually bi, but simply chose to be gay or straight becuase that's what society deems appropriate. we went back and forth like this with him pretty much calling me stupid, telling me I was arrogant and that I was ignorant to dismiss his claims of a successful change in sexuality. I eventually gave up because he was frankly being rude and offensive to me (he was also patronizing me)
so that's why I blocked him, I had no intention of continuing this vein of 'discussion' with him. I'm not closeminded, I felt it was the more mature thing to ensure it didn't degenerate into that again.
And I do get frustrated when debating with people who won't give credit to a well-supported argument. So I'm going to put this here, in your own words:
"That's why I stopped actually putting effort into my debates: it's a waste of time. you'll never see it, same as a lot of people here on FA. there are hundreds of people online I talk to that agree: "you're not an ass unless people are being an ass to you."
- You say it's a waste of time is people won't see things your way. Wrong, when going into a debate one should be willing to learn and change their opinion rather than bullheadedly defending their own
- You blocked him because he wouldn't see it your way. Which supports my point of you only associating with people who agree with you. Whether or not it was temporary is of arguable relevance, but you severed contact when you couldn't "win".
- And just because you think someone's being an ass doesn't mean they actually are. Tone is hard to convey though text, and is very easy to misinterpret. To me, your comments seem spiteful and arrogant, when it's quite obvious you don't think you are. But telling him you blocked him "because... frankly [he's] wrong" and you needed to "shut him up" doesn't support your case of being open-minded.
This isn't a matter of opinion. this IS a factual error. there is a distinct difference.
go ahead and add me, I'm always willing to chat, but I find MSN sucks and doesn't like adding people unless we add one another at the same time.
Yes, I have an ego, rather have an ego than be emo.
by the way... when you truly recognise your faults, there ISN'T anything that can be done to exploit them.
If you don't want it, you don't have to ask for it.
If it was edited out, then fine, but think before you post.
Debating really goes nowhere if you don't reach a conclusion, it's like sibling rivalry, endless cycle.
But debating can be fun when you are looking for an intelligent argument or banter about a subject that two people have an opinion on.
I like debating and arguing, only until we both find that we won't change our minds or until it makes us upset or angered and begin to hate one another.
I have more if anyone wants it :u
Ranting: Singular posting (such as in a journal) that may or may not be logical. Generally high-energy. It may be heated.
Debate: Conversation between two or more people that lacks logical fallacies. It may be intellectual in nature. It may be heated.
Arguement: Conversation between two or more people that includes logical fallacies. It may be intellectual in nature. It may be heated.
My two cents (but you can have one for your thoughts.)
Rant- Single person. Energetic. Can be based on fact, often based on opinion. Goal can be persuasion, defense, or attack. See also: rave (positive rant), essay (subdued), letter (subdued, directed).
Arguement- Two or more people. Energetic. Can be based on fact, often based on opinion. Goal is persuasion.
Debate- Two or more people. Subdued. Based on fact and logical play. Goal is persuasion.
Dialetic- Two or more people. Subdued. Based on fact and logic, but very little play. Goal is determining the truth.
How I long to have an intellectual debate these days, at least without a response consisting of a personal insult, or somebody coming in and calling it drama whilst failing to add anything valuable to the debate itself. ;P
As for the case in point, it would be hypocritcal to block somebody as a result of a "debate" as it wasn't a "debate" to begin with. You pretty much got the meaning of debate spot on, in the end a conclusion is made and in most cases both sides agree to disagree, no blocking should ever occur within a debate, for whatever reason (unless it's blatant trolling, aimed to start drama and throw the debate off the rails).
Problems should be addressed, blocking someone you disagree with is a bad way to address problems, HOWEVER I am not saying this was the case here, lest I imply I am ignorant.
I know too little about both of you and the situation at hand to delve deeper into this debate, but I hope a conclusion can be made and that it is a positive outcome for both of you. :3
Slim margins for success, ad hominem tactics, ultimately wasted time and energy.
None of the fun of being in the same room with the person and being able to have a pint with them after you finish.
Cheers.
<.<
RUNA RUNA RUNA