That's seriously ridiculous :/

i always though the artist alley and dealers den was the same in the states....so if their extending the artist alley solely (which is the free one?), why dont all dealers just go into there and not pay to market their wares?

Thats what's happening

artist alley doesnt allow you to sell premade items. the dealers den does, and allows you to use electricity. theres large differences between the two.

ahhhks

People sell premade items all the time but yeah I agree that's what should be. They don't enforce their own rules

this is correct, some artist alleys dont have anybody watching over things. :(

The issue is that the difference isn't enough. They list things like electricity, the ability to get multiple tables, etc as benefits, but these aren't things that all the dealers need. In fact, most artists don't, and its only the artist-dealers that are competing with the artist alley. If you're a dealer who doesn't need those perks, what sets the den apart from the alley?

a guaranteed spot, without having to use a lottery system to get a table. the ability to come and go as you please, and always having the same table each day. People cant find you as well, if each day your in a different location in the alley. pre-made items is a huge thing also, which i understand most artists dont always do either, but you have that option.

But there's just about a guaranteed spot in the artist alley too, and that's what the problem is. Even the staff member who runs it explains on the forum to an attendee that Friday and Sunday you're pretty much guaranteed a spot first thing in the morning, and Saturday you generally don't have to wait long until you can get in. This is what we're complaining about. It shouldn't be that easy.

Come and go is irrelevant, as anybody who would get a dealer's table (whether they end up in the alley or the den) is taking their business seriously enough that they're not going to "come and go."

The same table each day is a small benefit, but not as significant a one as is expected. This is easily made up for by dyeing your hair a unique color, using a flashy sign on your table, etc. And even then, the only real benefit to people finding you twice is that those who already bought something can pick it up. As far as getting business in the first place (which is the topic of conversation), it means almost nothing.

And as already stated- I have never seen the pre-made thing enforced. I've always seen prints, pins, etc present in the alley. Though honestly, I am not a proponent of "no pre-made items" because that turns the artist alley into a commission hall, and the den into a merchandise hall. I think its a horrible idea because soon, artists in the den (who often get more business through commissions than other sales) will be at even more a disadvantage as they are now.

Point is, there's not enough difference. Since the benefits are not applicable to all dealers, I'd even go as far as to say that the only real difference is that dealers pay $120 (could be wrong on the number, but I think that's right) to have a bit more elbow room.

I think MFF is okay with pre-mades in the alley.

Hmmm at least they did last yer... I think... heh heh

Just FYI- it already was. 96 artist alley chairs, 70 dealrs at 99 tables.

This is so rediculious ...

Maybe it's because I'm relatively new to the scene of conventions and my experience is minimal but I come from somewhat of an odd viewpoint.

Dealers Den is where I go for big names and pre-fabs that are more likely more intricate, better quality, and more time consuming to make. This is generally true of much are too.


Artist Alley is what I check out for indies and new faces as well as quirky ideas.


So going into the dealers den is more of a sure win for finding things I like and going into the artist alley is more pot luck mix of good, bad, and eh.



I can see where your coming from though, figured I'd just throw another perspective out there for yall to evaluate and criticize with your superior experience :). This coming from the perspective of a "fresh meat" customer.

This is generally true of much are too. = This is generally true of much ART! too.

It just ruins business for people in the dealers den. Especially when you have more artist in artist alley than in the dealers den. its not good for business it takes away the point of being a dealer at a con.

That gets kind of rough. Which I why I think so many cons have issues trying to figure out a good balance. Both dealers and your new up and comings in the artist alley are important to fandom's and cons. Independents are far and away going to outnumber the much more experienced, professional (product wise :P), and typically more financially lucrative Dealers Den folks. Yet at the same time Dealer's Den folks are big attractions to your con.

It's honestly a kind of hard balance to strike because both are vitally important and both sides feel threatened by the other. On one hand you have dealers worried about being squeezed out by numbers and competition while PAYING to be where they are. On the other you have artist alley folks having to compete against reputations and generally lower expectations of the artist alleys. I mean really how do you compete with people like Blotch, Kyell Gold, etc...so much crammed into one small area?


Ultimately I can't say which should be more important, especially since the Artist Alley artists of today will be the Dealers Den members of tomorrow. So, in my own admittedly less than experienced opinion, both are vitally and equally important in their own ways. A fair balance must be struck.


I don't see a problem with Artist Alley outnumbered Dealer's Den. The Dealer's Den is the few, the proud, the Mari...the elite :P. Lesser numbers but higher quality. But any con that obstructs the Dealers Den with the Artist Alley is messing up. It's not fair to make someone walk through a gauntlet of possible money siphoning sales to reach people who really are some of reasons people attend conventions. It also totally messes up a key advantage of the Dealers Den, higher exposure via reputation.


It's just a sucky situation all the way around and I imagine hotel logistics further complicate things.


I know it's an unpopular opinion, but before we all descend into negativity and competitive anarchy we need to try find a good balance. If con's can't figure it out then both the Dealer Den's AND the Artist's Alley's should work together to figure it out for them. OR we all lose in the long run :/.



P.S. I judge neither side for their opinions, they are totally understandable and as said I am a wee bit inexperienced myself so could be totally wrong *boggle*.

The basic point is. Do you think it's fair to give charge dealers for a spot for the right to do business at the con then have another room that is identical except you call it artist alley and they get free tables and also get to do business at the con with all the same rights and privlidges as the people who are paying for that right? That's what upsetting. Artist alley was never designed to be an event. It started off as an artist lounge and then got out of hand. I just don't see the point of paying to deal when you you can get the same thing for free in artist alley. They have cheapened the role of the dealer and also created too much competition to the people who actually have overhead expense and are counting on the business at the con seriously having almost 200 artist at a con is not a good idea. The ratio per attendee guarntees bad sales for most people as was the case in 2010 and 2011. There's already a huge backlash in the dealer community about MFF if this keeps up the level of quality artist in the den is going to drop. No dealer wants to attend a con where they intentionally create too much cmpetition for their paying dealers by offering free tables to some and charging other. That's just not good for business and alot of dealers like myself are opting to attend other cons during the last quarter of the Year.

I skipped MFF on 2011 and attended AC and I'm so glad I did. Business there was much Better because they don't over burden the con with too many vendors and artists. I'm gonna attend AC again this year and I'm seriously the thinking my plans about attending MFF. I'd rather use my time to attend profitable cons.

While I understand your point this is a simple matter of supply and demand which furries don't seem to understand (not saying you I mean that in general ). You do make some valid points with I respect it's just not a good situation MFF that unless you've been a dealer you might not understand.

I do appreciate your insights they were very well expressed thank your that. ;).

Without directly disagreeing your playing a numbers game on small sample size with significant bias as to the reasons why sales were up/down/etc. The reasons are likely many and varied of which the specific situation you mentioned play only a partial role.

Also what you would be suggesting with that paragraph points towards limiting both dealers den AND artist alley. Thus the whole artist alley thing becomes sort of a red herring. It's not AA or DD at that point but total number of artists. Especially since pound for pound DD artists will be bigger competition and more likely to siphon away some of your sales.

I understand very well also that ther might be things I do not understand being a dealer. I admit that freely. But by the same token there could be things misunderstood BY VIRTUE of being a dealer. It takes a enourmous amount of maturity, selflessness, and objectivity to take one's own best interest out of an issue and look at it from a fair point of view. A group of dealers is extremely likely to see things from the point of view of a dealer, but much less likely to see things from the point of view of a artist alley artist or a random customer.


For instance, your table specifically both times I have seen it has appeared pretty low key compared to the tables around it. I wouldn't say to hook up neon lights or anything, but it could use a little more presentational OOMPH in a tasteful fashion. It'd be pretty hard to compete, even assuming even quality, with other folks with better presentation.

It's one of the things that stood out for me this past year in Furry Fiesta. You were in a tough spot. You had Mary Mouse, Fur Planet, Kyell Gold, and Blotch nearby correct? All of them had a high amount of attention grabbing things like example badge stands, rows of books, etc in addition to being big names. Despite the same type competition the artist near I did not know drew major interest with good presentation and a very good angle. *Your character as Dr Who.* in a very well designed standing poster.

Had I not known your already personally you would have likely just faded into obscurity beside the folks around you and I would not have looked twice at your table and wouldn't have seen your work regardless of it's quality. If your presentation at other cons follows suite then I wouldn't be the least bit surprised competition would threaten you. You'd be one of the first that felt it in a competitive environment. That line "don't judge a book by it cover" is good advice. Unfortunately it's advice that few people take.

This isn't meant to be negative towards you, I personally like your stuff. It just hasn't been as well represented as many other people's. I'd definitely enlist the help of someone with high presentational skills. To help you be more visible.


I'm glad your able to read my comments and not be offended however. There is both respect and appreciation for that because I do not wish to be offensive, but instead provide another angle for thought. I am also doing my best to appreciate your angle, as well as those in the thread you linked. But I end up coming back to the same results and I am friendly with many, be they artist, staff, customer, or dealer.

I do want to separately comment that in that thread I believe they answered exactly as they should. The tone in that thread was pretty negative AGAINST staff and did not exactly radiate the feeling of objectivity. It's obvious they are facing space concerns, which should be no real surprise for any growing convention.

For the good of the con they are forced to look at things from a business perspective and make the greatest amount of people happy that they can. I have high respect for dealers, but there are plenty of artists that would LOVE to be in the Dealer's Den. It's viewed as a graduation of sorts to being a bigger more respected artist. Those new artists will not be bringing an ingrained view of how it should or shouldn't be.

Ultimately it comes down to voting with your wallet as it were. If there truly is a problem then you and other dealers will make themselves known via actions, not words. If things continue just fine for them after your abandonment however, it's your duty as a businessman to look at the situation again and re-evaluate. It might be easier to judge after time has passed and your no longer directly involved. Even if that judgement remains the same you might have new, more workable ideas and ways of expressing them.

Either way I wish you the best :).

I'm going to agree to disagree as there are multiple facts you may not understand unless you've been a dealer the bottom line is regardless of presentation of table set up I do well at other cons MFF is the only. On that I have this problem and if you read the MFF thread I'm not the only one. So there is clearly it just an issue I am having. The fact they are t seeing it is where I have the problem.

I will be joining boycotting MFF along with the other artists who have already been boycotting MFF I'd rather put my efforts into attending Cons who don't disrespect their paying vendors. They don't seem to understand simple business economics.

It's all good I'm not offended at all I do appreciate your feedback I honestly do. I'm just trying to point out. I'm not the only artist who has had this problem. Had it been only me than I could understand what you have Said but it's multiple dealers, even deales with nice set ups. Also the fact I do well at every con I attend except MFF and I have the exact same set up at those cons. Sure I could add some more bells and whistles but I honestly think that's not the problem (not to mention I have to fly with this stuff and it's a pain to have a huge set up).

Anyhow. I appreciate your feedback. But this is not an isolated incident it's a wide spread issue and I am only one of several dealers who have spoke up about this. That's all this is about.

I wish you luck either way of course hehe. I'm not sure who to hope is wrong or if we will ever find out. But luck and fun days is a hope either way :p.

Balto, I read the thread you linked to, but I am not sure where it's stated that the alley would be bigger this year? I might have glossed over that part. It sounds like they are keeping it the same as last year.

From the current set up, I don't see where they would have more space for the alley. It was filling the separate rooms leading up to the Dealer's room, and the DR was the focal point. The only major complaint I had last year was the multiple large multi-table displays that hogged much of the space with junky costume armor and run of the mill non-artist created plush. I don't think so many large multi-table displays should be allowed, especially when the room sells out so early. Obviously there are more people who want to pay for that space.

While I did sell in the alley last year (due to my being slow in reserving a dealer table), and found it to be a relatively stress-less experience, there are still many benefits to buying the dealer table

1) You get a MUCH larger set up
2) That set-up stays set-up in the same spot all weekend
3) You are advertised in the conbook, and can tell your customers where to find you ahead of time
4) You are guaranteed a spot - no worrying if you are going to be able to generate revenue

None of these things are given to you when you are in the alley. The space is small, so forget trying to sell anything but sketches. I also truly believe setting up the DR generates much more profit.

The traffic was also WAY more dense in the DR last year. I only stopped in once, but I could barely walk around in there. The AA was not nearly as crowded.

I definitely don't want to come across as disagreeing with you, as it does indeed seem to be an increasing trend to give too much to the AA and take away from dealers, but I am seeing this at all furry cons... Especially since the focus of furry cons (unlike other fan cons) is not the dealer's room anymore. It's fursuiting in a common area, dancing and drinking. Those are the activities that get priority.

I honestly believe that despite the problems, it is a far better decision to pay for the dealer's table and not rely on the Alley if you want to promote yourself as a professional. I encourage you to give MFF another chance, and then make your decision based on the changes they made last year. If it's truly not working for you, then I agree with not going in the future.