There is some VERY good advice in there, a lot of the things she mentioned are things I follow myself. I also read the little side post about art slumps, there's some good info in there too. :) Thanks for sharing, think I'll do the same. :)

no problem :)
I also really like her other blog post about people who think furry art isnt a real job: http://eskiworks.tumblr.com/post/23.....not-a-real-job that mentality just grinds my gears. Good read! http://eskiworks.tumblr.com/post/23.....not-a-real-job

haha Totally. Thanks! :D

just realized I posted that link twice. Sorry. Braindead these days XD

Most of it is common sense, really, but it's good to see it voiced because there's a lot of peer pressure for undercharging.

Yes, it needs to be voiced, no matter how obvious--because people just don't realize it.

Wonderful, wonderful advice...particularly since I made the exact same mistake, and am still finishing off ancient, super-cheap commissions that people have now been waiting 2 years for. XP At least I'm soon done! :P

ha! more artists should read, and understand this... alas, it can't be repeated too often.

I herd something like this before. If you are going to charge little of hours of good work. You might as well work in fast food.

Unddercharging is very subjective. How do you determine you are realy undercharging? Overcharging means you don't sell anything and that means you make no money at all...so I see overcharging as a more serious issue!

I think working your ass of for peanuts having is worse than not selling anything and being free to have other employment to make ends meet.

"Not selling anything" also doesn't necessarily mean you are overcharging - that's one of the myths pushing artists to undercharge for their work. Selling anything depends on two sides, the seller and the buyer. If the buyer isn't paying normal compensation and going for the cheapest instead of being fair, then that is certainly not the artist's fault.

If everyone undercharges, then it becomes a hard market, but that should never stop you from charging a FAIR wage.
I face the same dilemma in my day job of translating. It's a very tough market but I refuse to accept peanuts for my hard work; I'd rather do other work in that case, or no work at all if it so happens. Does that mean I get no work at all? No. People still hire me - I get fewer clients than if I'd go with the tide, but in the end I make the same amount of money without working myself into a burnout.

I hope you don't mind me quoting you here in my journal. Well put.

Feel free!

I like this way of thinking.

I hope you don't mind, I also used some of your wording in an update on my tumblr! =)

Don't mind at all!

This is an awesome journal, thank you for sharing!

The "do it for all of us" argument is pretty weak, honestly. Charge what you feel comfortable charging and will keep you busy but not overwhelmed. Not liking a fellow artists' pricing structure does not justify collusion or price fixing.

The rest of the article is quite sound and appropriate, however.

Urging someone not to be self-employed at what works out to less than $5 per hour is not price fixing, it's a cry for some basic respect and dignity.

If the artist is comfortable charging that amount and can stay busy but not overwhelmed - and make a living if that's their intention - they're welcome to do so.

It's pretty unlikely that someone can actually survive on that kind of wage though, so yes, they should charge more than that - but not because other artists urge them to in order to justify their own prices.

To add to your points, there are artists whose countries' currency allows them to make a decent living for prices that seem a little under the "norm." Ideally, they should take advantage of the difference, but it's tough to resist getting a few more hits by keeping prices slightly lower.

Also, some people can work faster and squeeze more money out of their free time. For example, a $10 sketch would be underselling for a lot of folks, but I have seen artists who can bang them out in 20 minutes. That's way under industry prices, fo sho, yet still decent (and quick) supplemental income, especially if you're working elsewhere in an iffy economy.

So, yeah, definitely not a cut-and-dry issue, sadly. Encouragement to be fair to yourself is great; assuming there's a lack of dignity or disregard for other artists, based simply on lower prices, not so much.

I'm seconding. Of course, the article doesn't assume that those undercutting are managing to stay busy but not overwhelmed, but your comments assume correctly that once an artist does achieve that, they're probably at the right price point.

Not only that, but the trend of cheap art has real negative effects. They are already visible in this fandom. It generates a large amount of disrespect towards artists with fair prices. What happens is commissioners get /so/ used to these cheap prices, that when say, kacey charges fair, realistic prices for her artwork she gets a tons of horrible comments and rants about how she "charges too much". :S This shit atittude kills me. ( Some of these comments on Kacey's price list journal are horrible; https://www.furaffinity.net/journal/532218/)

I file that under "Haters gonna hate" and dismiss it, as I suspect  kacey does. As  shinigamigirl observed, she still has no shortage of patrons despite the angst of the commoners.

It's important to be able to differentiate between whining and valid criticism. To date I've yet to see a notable case of an artist being talked down more than a slight percentage on a major piece, which is a testament to the validity of balancing price to stem off or bring in demand as appropriate.

I always find it hard to figure out how much to charge for different things in my commission offerings. The good thing is that I learn as I get commissions, but I don't want to over-price myself, if that's possible. <.<

I am not an artist myself, but I have felt this way for a long time, both when I petition an artist to do a commission for me and feel they are badly undercharging ($20 or $40 for something taking a month to do? SRSLY!?) and when my actual friends, who are artists, vent in frustration, not knowing what to do, feeling so overwhelmed by so many commission requests that they contemplate 'articide' -- ceasing commissions and ceasing drawing altogether.

The absolute minimum I would feel comfortable in offering to pay for a commission is $100. For a more experienced artist, I offer $400.

I am not a rich guy. I'm not well off. As a matter of fact, I have never made more than $15,000 myself in a single year ... and while I am as much of an addict of video games as most furries, I am frugal with my pennies and managed to save up and buy $1,000 in commissions (two $400ers and two $100ers) over the past decade or so.

I would caution, though, that simply raising your prices to a decent level doesn't solve all problems, and will cause strife, but -- as a non-artist just thinking on it -- I imagine its less bad than the problems that come with undercharging.

I think this is always a very complicated issue and has so many factors. being somebody who spends over 1,000 USD a year on art there are so many things that affect how an artist chooses to price their work. popularity, quality, skill and time per piece as well as who do they know? who will help get them noticed etc.

While i do agree many do undercharge (i also feel some overcharge mind you) it is a tough market right now with a bad economy for everyone not just artists. Also factor in the sheer amount of quality artists on this site alone and the reality is those decisions are quite difficult for many. For artists with a huge following and that have a strong history its easy to charge those prices and get what is fair. for many they feel just as pressured to try breaking their way in.

I know personally likely a dozen artists who deserve in many cases 50% or more for the work they do but just dont feel they can get it due to the competition in the market and the fact there are just so many highly established artists out there. One thing many need to remember in this community who you know and popularity can be more a part of selling commissions than actual talent and that is proven again and again.

I know personally many artists make less than 5-7 an hour which is not even minimum wage but i also cannot deny in a harder economy the art budget shrinks too and not to mention I think a larger % of artists do it as a hobby and side thing around their jobs or college often which also creates a complication. It is far different when your after extra spending cash compared to trying to put food on the table with the income from art.

(TL;DR: basically I agree, but I have a different view on issues of skill vs money)

I generally agree with what she wrote. But I think the problem with the line of thinking generated by further discussion is assuming that art is worth whatever $ an hour. The artist's time might be, generally speaking, but the list of artists I'd want art from at 20$+ an hour is not that long. I'm still getting a product and I still need to think it was worth my money, no matter how long it took them. I know Wofl-Nymph's suggestion for that is for lesser skilled artists to not take commissions, but unfortunately that's not how the fandom works. It's really subjective, but there are a few artists out there getting many commissions at prices I find outrageous for their skill level, in a too expensive sort of way, but that goes both ways, haha! And good for them, I don't like hating on people being successful with what they do whether I think it's worth it or not! Their success isn't stopping anyone's success, anyone who's convinced otherwise might be doing something wrong. But that is not the norm, and let's face it, not everyone can do that, a lot of it is luck (popularity, really) as Nym said - but then the question is, if at their skill level they're making good money, why should the other less popular artists wait to make theirs and not try?

My point is that yeah, in a perfect world the price skew between the fandom and "real world" industry prices might be narrower if only people would stick to more reasonable prices, but frankly everyone is allowed to make a little bit of money on the side if they want to, and not everyone's skill level is worth industry pricing. I started off doing what I now think is horrible ugly art, but people still gave me money for it 10 years ago and I always had some pocket change that way. I also never got into trouble with commission volume, I know what my limits are, so that's not an argument against taking cheaper commissions early on for everyone. I'm embarrassed that I deemed that shit worth ANY amount of money back then, but hey, people bought it and I don't think it's my place now to try to dissuade artists in that same position from making a bit of cash too. What I DO think my job is though, is to continue doing what I do and charge the prices I think are fair for me and allow me to make a good living, and I don't think that they charge has any influence on what I make now. A great example of why I think their prices don't matter is Casey, no matter how much whiners QQ at her pricing and compare her to others, she has absolutely no trouble getting work because her art is obviously worth it!

One thing I do see is artists who are obviously VERY highly skilled undervaluing themselves, and yeah, that leads to burnouts because their demands gets way too high way too fast (and they're usually inexperienced on the art as business side, get dazzled by the money and take -all the commissions-) and that does perpetuate the "oh but THAT artist was cheaper" rhetoric because the quality is comparable. Although it can be said that for an artist who is comfortable charging a good living wage that's not as much of an issue; people commission them because they want specifically their art, not because they want just art. And I absolutely agree with Nym that until they're in a comfortable enough position to do art as a living, yeah, they shouldn't quit their day job! But some risk is good too, it's hard to get out there and known unless one just posts more work, which takes that extra time.

Another related thing not mentioned I'd like to add is that instead of focusing so much on what one is making an hour on a commission, one should also remember stuff like merchandise, and to choose their jobs carefully. I may not always make what I want to make on a commission because of reasons such as lack of judgement on my part, but if it's colored work, I make sure that I choose ideas that I think would do well in print sales and that more than makes up for the time/money discrepancy in the long run. A good quality professionally printed and presented limited edition print can sometimes go for higher than the commission itself cost. I will sometimes put extra work into something and go above and beyond at no extra charge if I think it's one of those pieces that'll be popular. This is not to say that I sometimes don't take on commissions that I just personally find enjoyable, I do, but those with strictly that criterion are not the bulk of my work, and the two criteria also don't have to be mutually exclusive. Work smart!

I'm not quite there yet myself, but I am definitely in a comfortable zone with my prices where I don't feel like I need to drop everything, panic and immediately run out and get a wage slave job. And I do encourage artists to charge according to their skill or not go into this full time if that wouldn't make enough without burning out. That's the kind of shit that creates awful a_b posts about artists running off with money or taking years to do their work. That's just not cool for anyone.

I might or might not have had a cuba libre halfway through typing this. Sorry if anything doesn't make sense. XD

Derp, there it is, I said Casey. Sorry Kacey! XD <3

Excellent point about the print sets/merch. A notable artist friend of mine makes a good share of her income on stickers, mugs, and other "bite-sized" items at conventions.

When asked if I would consider allowing prints of my character to be sold, I was more than happy to let her - both out of friendship and respect and out of the hope that others might appreciate the collaborative work (more hers than mine, of course) that produced the piece in question.

I get a little bent over this subject because I've heard people say "undercutting" when one artist sells a $30 sketch and they sell theirs for $35. I think its important to point out that there's a HUGE difference between undercutting and undercharging, and artists should not be expected to have some kind of "industry standard pricing" where everyone has the same rates (especially since we don't all sell the same products!) Nobody knows (without asking at least) how an artist generates their prices, and until you ask and they shrug their shoulders, don't assume they pulled it out of their ass.

While I mostly agree with the blog, the truth of the matter is that the problem will fix itself (the project management triangle...good/quick/cheap, pick two) If a good artist undercuts, they will either be forced to raise their prices to slow the stream of customers down, forced to lower the quality of their art TO the price of it, or they will overwhelm themselves and get weeded out of the fandom. We see it all the time...people appearing on A_B because they took 50 commissions and had a breakdown and disappear because they were overwhelmed. The first group, who is able to stay professional about it, will eventually find their equilibrium. The second group finds an equilibrium too...just probably not the best one for their artistic career. The underpriced artist is not a sustainable role, it eventually fixes itself or crashes. As far as hobbyists go (speaking as one myself), they are working with a much more limited time than career artists, so the above scenario only happens swifter for them.

Another important angle is quantity: Is it fair for other artists to sneer and call it undercutting when a artist takes 5 $20 commissions that others thought should have been $40? If the purpose and danger of undercutting is stealing business from others, isn't this threat nullified by a low number of commissions taken, as long as that number is lower than what they would have easily gotten at the higher rate? This is important to consider, or else everyone who's ever done gift art for a friend would be guilty!

Anyway, its nice for people to be warned anyway, though I do not see this as some crisis for the other artists. While it may steal some business, it steals the unsavory business, from those who don't want to spend for quality art, don't do their research, and don't care about track records.

It's pretty much supply and demand, with the twist of supply being a human commodity rather than inventory.

I suspect that one of the first warning signs to look for is holding a number of payments for longer than would normally be due to complete the commissioned work. If you find yourself hanging on to a dozen down or full payments and it's been 6 months since each of them was made, it's time to raise your prices, motivate yourself into producing more output, or consider whether or not you are able to meet the demands of being an artist - each as applicable.

This isn't directed at you specifically (I think very highly of your business ethic) but at others who may be struggling in this way. I'm sure there are more ways to sugar-coat this message, but perhaps some good will come of just putting it out there.

I feel it's important for me to point out my follow-up here, since a lot of folks seem to be getting the wrong idea of my message in the original Tumblr post. This is directed to anyone who has commented or who might read your post, Sekhmet.

http://eskiworks.tumblr.com/post/24.....ging-follow-up

Please don't misunderstand. I'm not telling anyone what to do or what their time is worth. Nor do I sneer at artists who charge less than I do, or think negatively of them. I have NEVER put down another artists for their prices, whether higher or lower than mine. I just wanted to share my thoughts and my experiences so that maybe someone might learn from them. I encourage artists to make their own decisions on what they want to charge, and to try to charge a decent livable wage for themselves. Really nothing more...

Sorry if my reposthere has caused you any trouble. I thought it was a nicely thought out article and I thought I should share.

Not at all, feel free to share in the future too! I appreciate the reblog, a couple other people did the same to other non-Tumblr websites and it sparked some good discussion. In places like here where it got a lot of attention I've made sure the follow-up post was visible is all. =D

Not a problem :)

Thanks for clarifying by the way, that link will prevent me from having to reply to everyone on my page X3 --I understood you perfectly, honestly. And for the record I too stand by the fact that mass undercharging hurts the market. As stated above, it also generates nasty attitudes towards artists that charge fair prices (as seen in Kacey's Price List Journal). That attitude towards artists trying to make a living off of art really kills me.

*high five* Lets hope folks revisit her and see it!

*here* >.>

*nods* :D

I hope you don't see my and others' critique of the original article as needless vitriol. There was really only one item I could have taken you to task for, and it's been addressed.

Overall it's a well-written and convincing piece. <3

Not at all! I think you have some fair points about the undercutting subject! I agree with Myenia above about the problem often balancing itself out, and with you to an extent about the "do it for us all" argument having it's weaknesses. It's still something to consider, but not necessarily a rule to follow. Thanks for your input!

I actually have less of a problem with how you worded things, as what I disagreed with was only a small part of what you were trying to say. I'm all for artists charging what their work is worth and not lowering their prices just to "get ahead". I do see very talented and known artists charging 20$ a sketch at cons, taking a considerable amount of time completing them, having to turn people down because they're getting too much demand.. It's like why don't you raise your price to match what everyone else of your skill is charging? XD What bothers me is some of the discussion this kind of thing tends to generate. Not all art is created equal, not everyone thinks all art is worth the same price. I hope you don't think we were all horrified or something, I thought it was pretty well thought out and you're allowed to have an opinion. I'm not sure how you took what I said if you felt the need to create a new post on the topic, which I think refers to what was said here specifically as you coming under fire? I meant no offense, if that stemmed from anything I wrote (you don't mention me in the above comment and I'm not sure if it's because it was a non issue or you're offended?).

Derp, meant to post this as a reply to YOU, not to the whole journal overall. Try again!

"Not all art is created equal, not everyone thinks all art is worth the same price."

I acknowledge that for sure, and I don't think all art is created equal on any level. I don't mean to imply it anywhere in my post, I hope I didn't!

"I hope you don't think we were all horrified or something"

Not at all! I wanted this to generate thoughtful discussion, and it has done so here. Sekhmet's journal is by far the most civil group of people discussing this. Believe me, some of the other places my post got around generated some nasty responses. Which brings me to....

"I'm not sure how you took what I said if you felt the need to create a new post on the topic, which I think refers to what was said here specifically as you coming under fire? I meant no offense, if that stemmed from anything I wrote (you don't mention me in the above comment and I'm not sure if it's because it was a non issue or you're offended?)."

I am not offended by anything you said, my follow-up post is not about you. Sometimes I create follow up posts after Tumblr entries like this one because they usually generates questions and sometimes untrue assumptions. Since Tumblr's system for answering comments is either nonexistent or broken depending on your blog theme, it's easier for me to make a great big all-in-one post. I find it useful to clarify some of the things I said in my original post, especially when one of my biggest pet peeves is being misunderstood, or having people make assumptions about what I think or what I'm trying to say. And indeed, some people DID make some assumptions, such as me hating on folks for charging less than I do. Thus the follow-up!

The reason I don't mention you in my reply to taigitsune is simply that it didn't come to mind. It really means nothing at all. A LOT of people responded to this post of mine, and I didn't think it was necessary to list what I thought about every single person's opinion to make my point to him. Just a couple short examples is all!

Ah, OK, I just thought it was directed at the few people who posted here because your comment with the link higher up here directs us specifically there. Didn't think it was just me, but was a little confused at the wording there and in your previous comment and wanted to make sure. I do enjoy reading your blog posts when I come across them, didn't want to come off in a bad way. I know what you mean, I hate being misunderstood too. Sometimes I type up a few paragraphs in reply to something, read it again, and just delete the entire thing because I know someone will take it the wrong way. XD

And I didn't think you were hating on other artists at all, I think you worded yourself carefully and with respect, I'm sorry you got nasty responses elsewhere. I don't think everyone will ever agree on this topic, and it's like there's a big divide between people who do this for a living, those who do this on the side for extra money and often clients too used to the latter. And I think unfortunately artists in general are kind of bad at taking advice or criticism about the way they're running their business. I guess just because it's a scary thing to take gambles on one's salary and to never really know how much or how little one could make each month for one side, and just a "I have a "real jorb", I don't care what you think" attitude on the other. But I don't think the state of the fandom where it comes to pricing will ever change, and it's not like it hasn't always been that way. The people who undercharge themselves eventually either get weeded out and move on or wizen up and change their prices, and then new cheap artists replace them and the cycle continues. It's a big fandom. While I wish that more artists started charging what they're worth, I still don't really feel it affects me that much aside from the comments from nasty clients used to getting everything cheap (don't want to work for them anyway, they tend to be the most entitled pickiest customers anyway! We owe them our entire work week in endless edits because they paid for one drawing! XD).

As for the not all art is created equal thing, I know you didn't imply otherwise, I just disagreed with your suggestion that lesser skilled artists should refrain from taking commissions, because I think it works fine for some people and they eventually straighten out their prices when they start gaining skill and taking it (and start being taken) more seriously. But it seems others reacting to your entry are disregarding that part of what you wrote and are just going yeah, great wages for everyone!!! That's nice and all, but some skill levels are just.. really not worth even the 5$ an hour unfortunately. Harsh, but it's true. Sometimes and artist raising their prices and not getting much business is telling of something other than the buyer just wanting to go to a cheaper artist..

Awesome, it totally sounds like we're on the same page!

Your last paragraph makes me feel like we actually agree on that point for the most part. I can see how starting off with lower pricing when your skills are low CAN work, but I stand by my opinion that it's a gamble. You run the risk of attracting cruddy customers, you end up becoming known as a cheap artist, and you are at risk for the dreaded "oversized commission list" problem that I fell victim to. In the end, whatever works for ya! To me the better business plan is to build up your skills, audience, and contacts simultaneously and make a better entrance into the commission world than you could have if you started early with lesser skills and cheaper prices. But that's just not an option for everyone, I can agree on that for sure!

I just hope that my experiences can help warn people of those potential risks so that can either avoid them entirely, or know how to deal with them when they crop up.

Anyway, good discussion and good points as well. Thank you for the input as well!

"Not all art is created equal, not everyone thinks all art is worth the same price."

I acknowledge that for sure, and I don't think all art is created equal on any level. I don't mean to imply it anywhere in my post, I hope I didn't!

"I hope you don't think we were all horrified or something"

Not at all! I wanted this to generate thoughtful discussion, and it has done so here. Sekhmet's journal is by far the most civil group of people discussing this. Believe me, some of the other places my post got around generated some nasty responses. Which brings me to....

"I'm not sure how you took what I said if you felt the need to create a new post on the topic, which I think refers to what was said here specifically as you coming under fire? I meant no offense, if that stemmed from anything I wrote (you don't mention me in the above comment and I'm not sure if it's because it was a non issue or you're offended?)."

I am not offended by anything you said, my follow-up post is not about you. Sometimes I create follow up posts after Tumblr entries like this one because they usually generates questions and sometimes untrue assumptions. Since Tumblr's system for answering comments is either nonexistent or broken depending on your blog theme, it's easier for me to make a great big all-in-one post. I find it useful to clarify some of the things I said in my original post, especially when one of my biggest pet peeves is being misunderstood, or having people make assumptions about what I think or what I'm trying to say. And indeed, some people DID make some assumptions, such as me hating on folks for charging less than I do. Thus the follow-up!

The reason I don't mention you in my reply to taigitsune is simply that it didn't come to mind. It really means nothing at all. A LOT of people responded to this post of mine, and I didn't think it was necessary to list what I thought about every single person's opinion to make my point to him. Just a couple short examples is all!