Sorry to hear about that, it was nontheless a good piece you drew. I guess it's a shame you need to check on every piece these days instead of trusting the commissioner and have some goodwill that it'll be alright. :(

Yep it's probably good to doubt the clients word in those cases and ask the person who owns the character yourself :D It's a shame though, the art was really good :)

Appreciate it. :)

I've seen the PMs myself, personally, and permission was definitely given (though it was a while ago, and the question was admittedly a bit generic). I'm not sure if it was simply a misunderstanding (I certainly hope so), but we're getting it straightened out--without anyone on this end throwing any rotten tomatoes.

I don't quite understand how this: http://i45.tinypic.com/2ah60cx.png
...Counts as permission, as the person never mentioned what character they were being inspired by, and they pretty much hit all 3 things I told them not to do. I've had plenty of people take inspiration from character designs I've made in the past and they had no trouble coming up with something that didn't look similar enough for other people to say "Hey, that looks like something Orange04 has made."

Still, despite the fact I'm being made out to be the bad guy in this situation, I do appreciate you taking the submission down.

I admit the approval did seem rather open for interpretation once I saw it. And yes, it was over six months ago. I do get that. I understand your feeling like it wasn't quite what you agreed to — that, I can totally understand.

But we can both agree that your comment didn't equate to "this isn't what I agreed to". It felt like you implied that you had never heard a word about this, so I came away thinking I'd been totally lied to. I was confused, so I took the piece down in a hurry because I didn't want to have to field the inevitable flood of hateful comments and shouts that would surely come if I didn't.

That isn't fair, and I think we all know it. If that kind of instant vitriol is what someone gets for being naive and trusting, that's rather frightening to me.

I won't say anything else here in public, because I don't think that's fair to you. I'm not angry, and as you can see, I respected you enough that I took the submission down immediately because I didn't want anyone to think I was going to blithely keep it up and give the middle finger to anyone.

If you'd like to talk it out (and no, I don't mean "if you want to discuss whether I can put it back up or not"—I know that's not in the cards), I'm available via the contact form on my blog.

Third party pov but at least here it doesn't look like you're being made out to be the bad guy at all. The one in the wrong is clearly the client who misled HD.

I understand where you're coming from, but to say they "clearly misled" me isn't something I'd agree to at this juncture.

When I made the journal post, I was still uncertain as to whether or not there was proof about orange and my clients speaking to one another. Orange has posted that proof, so they did speak. I feel it's a case of a misunderstanding and my fault for not confirming it directly, for not talking to her about it in detail. I would not say they misled me maliciously. I have to insist that.

Normally the rule of thumb in this situation is to have each respective party take the time to contact YOU and confirm that you have their permission to use their character. You shouldn't be the one responsible for tracking people down to check, however, you can't take the customer's word about "Oh, they said it was okay," ever at face value. Whether they are a new customer for you or a returning one doesn't matter. Better to respond to commissioner saying "I am more than happy to use that person's character as well AS SOON AS I hear from them as well." Let the commissioner do the running around.

Definitely understand that now. From now on, I'll be sure to contact the other artist personally from now on — if only for the peace of mind it offers. This was just, honestly, my first experience with anything requiring anyone else's permission that I didn't already know personally, so my shyness got the better of me. I was such a fan of Orange's that I guess I put it off for too long, and wound up assuming too much. I learned my lesson. :) You're right. From now on, I'll wait to get permission, even if it means waiting a couple of weeks.

(Razer mouse likes to make me double-click when I hit "post", apologies for double comment and subsequent ninja-vanish! ;))

Heh, no worries. Posts have naggingly glitched on me too.

Ugh, not the first time I've seen this situation and it's sickening. Cant understand clients who do this, be it a character rip or mature art without the character owner's consent.

I've heard of it before, and it's very upsetting--it's what makes me so scared of working with new clients.

I can tell you right now, with better information, that this case definitely been a one of assumptions made and misunderstandings. My clients were not under the impression that they were going to anger the artist they asked to pay homage to (nor was I). We all made mistakes here, but I like them a great deal and while I do think we all made mistakes on this side, I would swear on my life that they did NOT do it maliciously.

Still, what Ezzleo said is very true, and while I'm quite fond of my clients in this case now, I still will be more thorough in future commissions because I do want to always be as respectful to any other artists inadvertently involved in my work as possible. I'm an artist — I know what it's like to feel like you weren't considered, and it's really terrible. I never wanted to do that, which is why this is so upsetting.

people can't own colors. I have colorful, horned wolves with varying markings. I'm not offended or angry about the picture. People need to get over themselves really. The character will have a chance to evolve on it's own over time anyway.

I haven't seen the image in question but Azelyn's right, you can't copyright colors or color schemes. If they 85-100% copied the design of the character's features, or just swapped the color palette, that's something else. I think you're coming away from this with the right attitude though; if a commissioner says they have permission from someone, better to throw a note to the person in question, or better yet, first ask the commissioner to explain it and provide proof. While it's not expressly your responsibility to avoid "infringing copyright" with your work, it would be wise of you to take an active stance on it when you have reason to be suspicious.

Lesson learned, believe me. :) At the same time, it turned out that my failing to ask was not the reason for her anger. She gave permission, but we failed to adhere to her stipulations because there were a handful of similarities. I insist that they were entirely coincidental, but to simply alter the sheet isn't something that is beyond my means. I don't want anyone to be sore about it when it wasn't intentional.

*nods* Good view to have, i think. :) It sounds like it ended well!

In case you missed something, the person heavily based their character off of Raiq. There's no denying that at all. This really isn't a "can't copyright colors" issue. The character resembled a design I'd made, plenty of people came to the same conclusion that it looked too similar before I even discovered it, and I too felt the design was much too close for comfort. So before you start saying I need to get over myself, I'd appreciated it if you at least tried to look at the bigger picture.

Actually you dont own the design.

Reiq is in a sense a anthro horned wolf. A horned wolf immediatly pops into my head in two forms, one mythological and the other a commercialized character.

The first being Valefor, one of the dukes of hell who take one of his forms in being a anthro horned wolf . He is (Ironicly in this case) the lord of trickery, cunning and thieves.

The second being horned wolves from Monster Rancher.

I'm also old enough to remember when people tried to lay claim to purple huskies, and certain striped lemurs an this is turning out to be just as silly as it was then except its happening to someone I know. The bigger picture as you put it is the fact this simply could have been a three note affair between you and the person who drew it. Instead you overreacted and released the kraken in the form of your legions of psychophantic followers and a boyfriend who was frothing at the mouth to get a artist beware journal up on someone not even responsible for the CONCEPT (that concept being horned wolfs), that I've already shown, isnt yours. Its much like how people can make whatever my little pony they want, or even sergals.

Besides, the character your upset about only had one set of horns, and entirely diffrent color scheme that I knew it wasn't related to yours other than they both happened to be horned wolves.

"Instead you overreacted and released the kraken in the form of your legions of psychophantic followers and a boyfriend who was frothing at the mouth to get a artist beware journal up on someone not even responsible for the CONCEPT"

Wow, excuse me, what? o_O
Which "psychophantic" followers are you even referring to? Please do enlighten me on this, because I haven't seen anyone come in guns blazin' here.
Additionally, I have no idea what my boyfriend even said to Holydust regarding this whole issue. He hasn't spoken to me about it at all, nor was I aware of any artists beware journal threats being made. I'm not blaming Holydust for any of this, and I applaud her for handling it maturely. The issue was someone DID base their character design off of Raiq's design AND her summer coat color scheme seen here: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/5729127

Nowhere have I ever tried to claim ownership of horned wolves. You can keep on mud slinging and making negative assumptions about me and my intentions all you want (because it looks like you've already made up your mind before really knowing the facts), but someone DID go overboard on being "inspired" by a character design I had made. And again, as Holydust has already mentioned, a lot of this was a big misunderstanding and miscommunication (both on her part and mine).

I wasn't sure if you'd seen the e-mail Raiq sent me in the beginning, Orange, but I didn't assume he was your mouthpiece or that his aggressive words were yours. I didn't reply to it, either; it wouldn't have done any good to stir the pot. I instead hurried to take the picture down and spent the next day trying to sort through the confusion.

I did look at the image and the image of reiq, and i dont really see anything similar other than a very bright gradient. You create countless, colorful characters. You can't get upset if someone creates something similar to what youve made. All reiq is, is a wolf with bright palette, black markings and horns. Ive seen many of them. Reiq is much more black and has much more intricate markings than the offending character. I think its pretty easy to tell the difference between the two.

Just because I'm curious Az, did Orange block you to cause you didn't agree with her?

I dunno. Didnt check

To Orange:

Thats real cute! Your gonna block me from making a comment you dont agree with? Keep it classy girl.

But here is the responce period.

Your boyfriend was mid typing a artist beware, and you did have a swathe of psychophants already rambling at her https://dl.dropbox.com/u/9469674/Te.....t%5D%20net.gif as well as somehow getting ahold of her on skype over it. You reacted poorly and now are back tracking trying to keep a proper face when anyone who's known you or watched your behavior knows this isn't your first rodeo in the "Omg how dare you twirl fire to!?" arguements.

I even told her that when I first saw she was drawing something remotely connected to you, and you weren't going to be compensated for it with money you were gonna rant and rave and you didn't disapoint. And going further as to block someone because heaven forbid they engage in a dialog with you that you dont like. Just tsk.

There's no use even arguing with someone who's already spewing hateful bull and wild accusations that have no backing. His opinions don't matter since they don't reflect Holydust's, so reasoning with him is pointless. He's made up his mind about being hateful to the bitter end, so just let him him stew on those feelings.

I'm not understanding here, Orange04. Your note said the "inspired by" character design was fine as long as the colors and markings weren't exact - and the colors and markings on that character are not exact. It seems this person asked permission and played by the rules they were given. If you didn't want a character inspired by yours running around, you should've said a polite but firm "no" when she asked. Now it looks like you're having morning-after remorse or something once this person has already shelled out cash for a ref sheet, and that's kind of uncool.

But anyway - sorry this happened to you, Holydust, and the ref sheet you made is still a nice piece.

The reality is that, while I had never seen Raiq, a few unfortunate similairities did occur and I did see the potential for mixups. I'm working to retool the sheet for the client.

I don't think you should've had to take the piece down, though I understand why you did.

The fact remains that permission to take inspiration from the designs was asked, and granted. The design you drew was not a direct rip-off of Orange's fursona or whatever the character Raiq is supposed to be, it was inspired by elements of that design and perhaps others, though I can't claim to be familiar with Orange's designs.

Orange, the fact also remains that you don't have a patent on your character's design. The summer coat picture you posted was made in SL which means that anyone who has access to SL has access to make a very similar looking character, and I don't feel like you would run after every horned wolf with a neon and black color scheme and accuse them of not getting permission. There are noticeable differences in the designs. Is it clear that the one Holy drew was inspired by other elements in your designs? Yes. Is it clearly a rip-off? No.

I understand the character must be dear to you, Orange, but I'm sorry. These things happen all the time. Your character is not so unique that this wouldn't have happened in another time or another place with another artist. There are dozens of similar designs in the world and you don't have a patent on it, sadly, so you have to learn to accept that there are other horned sparkly neon wolves out there in this world of furry fandom.

I understand that you're offended by the creation of this character, but again, you don't have a patent on horned wolves with a black and neon color scheme.

To bring this into Holy's field was unprofessional and downright immature. There's no reason why the image should be removed until all parties consent to that result - someone paid for it, whether you like the end result or not. Someone didn't take your character and have another artist draw it for money. They asked for a new design based on certain design aspects, and they paid for it. If you honestly have so much contempt for the idea that someone might have a similar looking character to yours, you should have taken it up with the commissioner and not the artist, and your first inclination should not have been to cry out publicly.

Holy's artwork is here for a reason. It serves as her portfolio so that her clients can see what she can do. Asking her to take down a piece that you did not pay for merely because it riffs off a design you made is asking too much of her, and she took that with grace when you have responded with nothing but panicked scrambling.

To put it in perspective once again: this drawing was not of your character. Holydust did not receive money to steal your design. She created a design based off of aesthetic principles you employ in several of your character designs - aesthetic principles that can be seen in the designs of many other characters from many other artists. The drawing was inspired by your art, as you gave permission for, some time ago. If you truly have a problem with someone owning a character that looks anywhere similar to yours, then you should have privately contacted Holydust and the commissioner and politely reasoned that you were not comfortable with a design being so similar. Holy would have been more than happy to work with the commissioner to make enough changes to the design so that you would no longer feel uncomfortable with it, though she and the commissioner are definitely under no obligation to do so.

I get that you don't like having a character that looks similar to yours out there, but instead of sitting back and thinking about the situation you chose to jump the gun and demand Holy take the art down.

I wasn't really going to reply here, since the information presented was not enough for me to go on, but as I read the comments and saw a screenshot of your original submission, I'd have to agree with everyone else here.

What you drew, what your client asked for, certainly looks like it COULD have been designed by Orange, hence the inspiration. However, it was not, and was in fact designed by you. The only similarities I saw were the blue horns, claws and tongue which, granted, could have been a different color. But I don't see how it infringed upon her in any way. You shouldn't have had to take it down.

Perhaps not, but I felt that to keep it up when tensions were high wouldn't have been good for business. I took it down as soon as orange requested it and am working to change it up quite a bit. I appreciate everyone's support. I think orange understands this was an issue of miscommunication and that I, at least, didn't intend to infringe. Hopefully we can wrap this up amicably.

I'm sorry, I really don't mean to stir the pot more because I have a lot of respect for most of the people in here, but I'm really failing to understand how so many people, so many GOOD, ARTISTIC people, do not understand why Orange would be upset by this.

Her "permission" said "I guess as long as you're not lifting color palettes, markings, or custom species from any characters I've created, I'm ok with that."

The "inspired" character was basically the original Raiq with slightly different black markings? It has the same overall concept going on. From what I remember seeing of it, it had the same colors in the same places(the hair was maybe a slightly different shade of blue), the same hair length/style, the same horns, the same tongue, the same toes, the overall same species. I don't entirely care about "Well you can't copyright colors/horned wolves/whatever". It isn't about that. It's that there were a million ways to do something "inspired" off of Raiq, and there was barely anything different.

Why is the fact that this is upsetting so surprising? If this had been any of your characters, with just slightly tweaked markings, I imagine some of you would be just as upset by it. :/

I'm personally not denying why Orange could be upset by the design itself. I've spoken with Holy and though she wasn't given references of Raiq, they have a similar overall concept and feel. And yes, I can understand why that would bother Orange, though not to the extent that it has.

My problem is not that she got upset by it. My problem is the way she acted in response to that. It is not Holy's fault that she was given this to work with, and there's nothing wrong with the piece. Orange came onto the scene with guns blazing and demanded the image be taken down, publicly, without even contacting Holy or the commissioner (to whom she should have spoken first when she saw the image) privately so that they could come to some conclusion.

Of course, Holy took it down immediately, because she didn't know what was going on. But she shouldn't have had to. A different conclusion should have been reached for, and I don't agree with how Orange reacted. Is it true that she has reason to be upset by a similar looking character? Yes of course, though the situation is a misunderstanding and it can be resolved. Is it true that she acted in a disappointingly rash and thoughtless way by demanding the work be taken down? Yes.

tl;dr - Orange can be upset about the design all she likes. I understand why she would be. However, demanding the image be taken down and dragging Holy's reputation into this was the wrong course of action, and a much better conclusion could have been reached, and maybe still can be.

Appreciated. :) I think it can be resolved.

I'm not concerned about my reputation--so long as one conducts themselves with grace, honesty, and diplomacy, it's hard to imagine this community being capable of allowing that person's reputation to be damaged. You taught me that. ;) I do hope that, in the future, if anyone takes issue with my art, they come to me privately and work with me to fix it, but when tensions run high, sometimes impulse wins out. I know that from experience, too, as you well know.

If you disagree with how I reacted, that's fine. but please have a glance at the following before saying how unfair my reaction was...

"I worry about being too trusting, but so far it hasn't bitten me in the backside yet, and having to take a piece down wouldn't be the biggest setback in the world." - Holydust
Which resulted in...
"NOBODY asked for my permission on this. Please remove it. This upsets me greatly, and frankly I'm surprised you didn't ask me about it to confirm this person's lie." - Orange04

I'm not sure how any of this counts as me "coming onto the scene with guns blazing." So far, nearly everyone has taken my reaction and stretched it well out of proportion, even to the point of accusing me of sending my friends and followers to attack Holydust (which couldn't be further from the truth, but I can't really stop clearly biased haters from thinking otherwise).
"Woah... for a second there I thought it was Raiq"
"agreed!"
...Were the ONLY comments left by people who are now being classified as my "psychophantic followers" who I sent out to attack her. Not only were these comments made well before I even knew the submission existed, but I'm failing to see how these comments can be misconstrued as attacks. They're merely short observations made by people who genuinely thought the character resembled Raiq, and I certainly can't blame them.

I may have been a bit stern and blunt with my comment, but I certainly don't think I was flipping any tables or speaking out of line. I was merely expressing both urgency and disappointment. This doesn't mean I'm putting the blame on Holydust at all.

The reason why I do blame the commissioner is this:
They asked me if they can make a character "inspired" by one of my own, but completely failed to update me on what exactly they had in mind. They decide to choose a character I specifically designed for my husband (so technically, they shouldn't have referenced it at all without consulting him first).
Whenever people ask me if they can make characters that are inspired by my own, they usually show me an example of what they mean, or at the very least tell me which character(s) they're wanting to lift inspiration from. This person didn't do any of that, which to me, is very odd and shady.

For the record, I still don't know what my husband said to Holydust, but I will be speaking with him about that when he gets back from work. When I first discovered the submission, I alerted it to him. After that, I have no idea what was said. I assumed he was getting in contact with the person who commissioned the piece in order to tell them "Hey, this is MY character and you didn't ask me if you could use its design to make your own." I did NOT expect him to attack or make threats toward Holydust or her reputation. That's the last thing I'd want to happen.
As for me blocking people, I can easily tell when someone has already made their mind up about me (especially if they're claiming they were speaking ill of me and making false claims before the drawing was even finished). There's really no use reasoning with blatantly venomous people like that, and FA has a block feature for a reason.

People can accuse me of overreacting and backpedaling all they want, but the only people I see overreacting here are the ones who aren't even involved and who would love nothing more than to vilify me every time I bring attention to my own work being stolen or borrowed from without explicit consent. When the people involved both come to an agreement that there was simply a big misunderstanding and miscommunication, that should really be all there is to it. All parties involved made mistakes. It isn't just one person who is at fault. Everyone trying to throw gasoline on the fire is just looking to cause drama. There's a difference between disagreeing with someone, and being a complete and utter asshole towards them.

I do see now, after closer examination, why she assumed it was a copy. I've contacted her privately with a long explanation of all the similarities I see. You're not stirring the pot, it's fine. But I'm hoping to retool the sheet and consider this matter resolved.

I am reluctant to even respond to this because the likelihood that the assumption that I'm one of "Orange's friends coming to attack you" will be tossed around is inevitable. I'm not here to attack you in any way, but I do want to put my two cents in.
While the claim that colors and details in design cannot be copyrighted is indeed true, there are many different ways to put them to use. Creating a character is a very personal thing and to see so many elements of a design lifted is just heartbreaking.
All I can say to everyone who is telling Orange that she doesn't have the right to be upset is to put yourself into her shoes for a moment. How would you feel if a design that similar to one of your own cropped up and you were made to feel guilty for asking for it to be removed? I doubt you'd be very happy about it.

No, I did actually sit yesterday and try to put myself in her shoes, and I do know it can't be fun. At the same time, I knew I didn't copy her work, but it's impossible to just outright prove.

That said, I took a closer look and realized there WERE a great deal of similarities, and I can see why. While I feel they were coincidental, no one wants a character that others will confuse for someone else, and I am hoping to fix the sheet in a way that will make everyone happy.

There's really no easy way to make a character entirely unique through design alone, unless you make it some stupidly complex hybrid of EVERY ANIMAL YOU CAN THINK OF. Or just tack on so many parts that it becomes a jumble :\ I'm very sure that tuxedo cats like vince have been done so many times, and I had someone accuse me of making my jorns look like some doom monster? i played the first doom game briefly for an excuse to blow shit up, but what?
Don't be sorry for the slowness in art, sweets. We all encounter some obstacle or another that acts as a speed bump in our progress and output. Just deal with it at your own pace, and I don't think anyone really has a right to complain. they're human just like you are. Patience is a virtue and understanding is just necessity.

*^__^* you're so sweet I feel tears welling up. Blarg. Don't be so nice! If I cry people will know I'm cotton candy! >:3

shhhhhh. being nice to people i like is what i do~ but i just tell it like it is, girly. you take the time to deal with your problems before you start worrying about art. i know from experience if you try to force it when you're not feeling up to part, it generally isnt your best work :c feel betters