I would not say she traced, your and her style show similarities, but her works have a own touch. Like the facial expressions she draws.

I think all this is entirely silly.

I agree with this, I looked but couldn't see anything similar.

Well said my friend well said!

Ah I remember seeing this on lulz.

Let's not go there....it is a silly place.

Ooooh i see what you did there

I think my reaction to this is to watch her amazing art skillz grow yo

Amen... watched to combat the haters! ^-^

swag

you can look at it in a more positive light too Fisk....that someone was inspired by your art style.....i know if i were in your shoes i may be a bit honored that someone found my art style so inspirational that they tried to improove their own quality by taking some aspects of my art and trying to improove themselves.......but at the same token i would prolly respond the same way to that they need to work on slowly evolving their own style so that its not a copy....but hey what can you say....you an artist that inspires many of us ^^

Best comment yet!

I can see how she's getting in trouble - some of her stuff shows very heavy influence from you while other stuff shows none so it looks like the heavily influenced stuff is traced while the other stuff is "natural." Good advice on your part - she just needs to practice more and eventually she'll merge the two styles into something unique to herself.

Dude. Your icon. :3

If you don't mind. Not that the admins pay attention to trouble tickets anyway. I have one concerning a character lift that hasn't been looked at in months.

Ticket ID?

#52553 filed 7.30.12

Problem?

well i mean yea. if you don't see the problem in that then there's something wrong hahaha. x___x

You know, I'm getting so sick of people tossing the word "Tracing" around left and right when they don't seem to know what it means! "Referencing" in the name of learning and "Tracing" to directly rip of others lines are two different things!

I can see similarities to your work here and there, absolutely, but I have yet to see even a detail that is blatantly traced. But yes, she might wanna try to evolve her style a bit and, if just to get a break from all the "white knights"...

Well every one has to start some where.. but you're quite right in suggesting she evolve her "own" style.
The sooner the better for her peace of mind by the sound of it.

She's young and I'm sure she will.

I'm just glad that the lady who's style I chose to copy when I was 'young' never made me feel bad about it.
Now you look at her style (which of course evolved) and mine, and they couldnt be more different lol.
I just hope maybe your post will help her to push herself, and others to let her be. It's nice they want to defend you... but yeah...

The really ugly part of this is that even if it can be proven (which I'm guessing it can't be in this case), tracing is a valid and effective learning technique. It's even a practical pre-digital method for inking or redrawing without losing specifics or altering the original. (Light table, anyone?) Refusing to acknowledge where something started or how it was produced is fraud headed to theft, but tracing per se is neither good nor bad.

Some people are just too hung up on their personal definition of "art."

I disagree. Tracing allows the mind to bypass the construction method of a piece, by simply focusing on line shape and placement. Referencing can help, but tracing cannot. It's about exercising the mind to create a 3d image out of thin air. Tracing undercuts that.

Yet tracing familiarizes the hands with the motions and shapes. It does nothing for learning composition, but if you're trying to reinforce (or just learn) a style it gets you going in the right direction. It might not be strictly drawing, but it does have valid uses in art.

Condemning a person for "tracing" is weak. If something's stolen or fraudulently copied, call it that.

And just to reinforce that opinions are like assholes, I'll chime in with mine, which happens to sit pretty much in between you two. In terms of actually drawing and creating something, I agree with Fisk that tracing is a shortcut that hurts the creative process and understanding of where to place lines. However, I do concede that it's good for building muscle memory and control, which is necessary if you want the stuff on paper to resemble the stuff in your head. Basically, I'm of the belief that using tracing on simple shapes, like circles and ellipses, is fine, but using tracing on complex items, especially finished works which obscure the underlying structure, is detrimental.

Take that all with a grain of salt, I suppose. It's taken me 22 years to draw a stick figure that doesn't look like it got smacked around with a pipe wrench, but there's my $0.02.

And yet some of the greater artists ever needed models to get their ideas right. I did in fact started by tracing. That's hundreds of year in the past now, but I did. On top of that every art teacher I met in my life believed different things about how to learn to draw. Some even banned the use of the eraser and ruler!

What I'm trying to say is that there's no right or wrong when it comes to learning methodologies. Some will use tracing as a learning technique and it will work for them, some won't.

When you're beginning you need to start somewhere, and a good balance between tracing and drawing on your own is the way to go from my point of view. The first to learn from artists who already have translated shapes to something more simple and easier to understand; and the later to overcome the fear to the white canvas.

Buuuut, and this is important, I don't support those who only trace and go through life doing only that and believing it will help them to improve. I believe is only useful in the earlier stages of learning, but no more :P

http://u18chan.com/uploads/data/133.....ce_U18chan.jpg

Found this on google...

It states a difference, yes. But as I said, I don't support those who trace to make other's believe they can draw. And learning by tracing should only work in the earlier stages of drawing, to give confidence to the aspiring artist in their hands and acquire mental references for the future.

Though now I'm not sure what you wanted to say by sharing that picture XD

When we say tracing we're talking about copying the exact line-art, aren't we?

Sort of, yes. Like putting your drawing sheet over the picture you want to trace and draw over it again with your own lines.

And yet some of the greater artists ever needed models to get their ideas right.

May I mention Norman Rockwell?

Buuuut, and this is important, I don't support those who only trace and go through life doing only that and believing it will help them to improve. I believe is only useful in the earlier stages of learning, but no more :P

Much the same thing my Dad discovered when studying a learning aid (for keyboarding) for one of his degrees in Business Ed. It helps beginners, but does nothing for improving beyond that. The company that made them avoided wasting money on R&D.

Personally, I feel tracing can help in specific situations. I started out tracing when I was very, very young. I had trouble with my hands and my parents were told I wouldn't be able to write in the first place, so I was given things to trace which made me learn to control my hands and now look where I am. But I didn't stick to tracing either, that's the problem with majority of people, they end up using tracing as a crutch when they no longer need it.

Well, if you're working on hand strength, it may be beneficial. But I still think that whatever benefit you're getting from tracing, from the standpoint of the ability to create a picture from nothing, you're just doing a far less effective exercise, at the very least, and you're just holding off the free hand exercises which are actually valuable. I suppose that's one way of just saying "tracing" as an exercise is entirely frivolous, when you will probably get better, more quickly, by looking at how bodies and shapes are constructed, and then working on depicting it free-hand.

Oh no, I do agree. At the same time, I do think it can help but it's more on the individual. Most people get stunted by tracing, while others really were able to use it as a tool but it isn't something you see often.

In at least five different art courses I've taken over the past 10 years, including college, all instructors have encouraged tracing (even moreso at the higher levels and in animation courses). It is a powerful learning technique, especially if you are feeling under the weather or suffering from an art block but you want to continue improving. Not just tracing one or two things, but literally taking hundreds of pictures from artists that inspire you and tracing over them repeatedly. Not only the lines, but the entire structures and formation and compositions and making notes about the artist's techniques, as well as paintovers.

Obviously, this is only an educational technique and anything that is heavily traced off of an existing picture should not be posted/called your own, and one should always seek to improve in drawing and evolving their own style (especially through life drawing).

Referencing on the other hand is not only legal, it is encouraged. I cannot count how many artists I've seen on this site and others that have obviously based their works on others. I've come across many artists on here where I can take their picture, open up another picture drawn by Jeremy Bernal or one of the older/popular artists and paste it over and it is clear that the pose or something was directly referenced. Is that a problem? No. If it was, this site would be in trouble.

People need to stop being so pedantic and picking on people who are developing their skills. If they directly copied an entire picture/character/everything then that would be one thing. If the picture is simply referenced or inspired by something else, who gives a shit?

Tracing as a learning tool is fine, but I feel it is a step over the bounds of propriety when you start posting those traces publicly. I would have no problem with someone tracing a Rembrandt for the lines and then painting their own colors for practice, but when they hang that work in a gallery it's outright fraud.

A fine line, maybe, but a significant one.

Posting them publicly? That would depend on why and how you credited the sources.

And how the source artist reacts. Always exceptions to prove the rule. ;p

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

its similar yes. traced, hell no, its way too different. in my eyes. but i have seen many who share art styles but are slightly different and no one complains. art styles are gonna be similar no matter what.

From what I can tell, your dicks look better. Don't care or mind much about anything else between the two of you.

Had to deal with stuff like this before. People will get overly defensive and assume certain skill or images can only come from one person and have a tendency to troll. It's sad because this can limit the person that is developing. It is possible to develop a style or improve where something looks similar. People should take a proper route if concerned and not just fly off the handle in response. I actually give you props for being very direct and level headed about this, like many of the great artists are.

Hey, as long as you don't disappear like Ferris did, it's all good! I still really miss his art.

I think I would feel flattered rather than upset.

My take on the situation is this: I see similarities in the art yes... do I see evidence of tracing? A quick skim through her gallery and each piece I go through and I cant really see much of that at all.

My worry about all of this is that this may discourage a potentially good artist and if the issues persist, she may just not post anything anymore, provided she does want to keep working on her art form. This in my eyes would be a tragedy... I'm not sure about anyone else.

She gained a watcher, because mostly I'm eager to see how her work evolves and shapes into its own style, and also, i do kinda want to see how she handles this situation. It is indeed a difficult one.

Having a unique style comes with time, and for most artists gradually changes as well.

All art is built of what came before.

Most furry art can be traced (no pun intended!) back to Disney films, but I don't see lots of people complaining that someones furry art looks too much like a Disney character because they all do in some way.

If someone wanted to spend the time you could take every furry (and non furry) artist and build a giant tree showing which artists inspired each other. All art is a mix of existing styles and some new ideas.

Her art is clearly inspired by yours, and I assume in time it will diverge into her own style. I can't imagine she is alone either, as your art surely has inspired many many more people to try drawing.

Still... nothing beats the original. :)

This is something that confounds me about how the internet has altered peoples perceptions or art. Everyone expects something new and original, and if there are ever any similarities between two artists, there is this huge outcry. That's just the way the field of art is. There is no such thing as a "self-made artist" who developed entirely their own style, from scratch, without any reference or study. Asking that of an artist today is just as ridiculous as it would be in the 14th century when photo-realism was the expected style.

Strictly hypothetically speaking, because I am a terrible artist, if someone was using my art as a general reference for their own, I would be very flattered. To think someone actually considered my own work to be worth being referenced at all is a great compliment. Although such is the nature of the internet...

I can see where she draws inspiration from your work. However, just from my observations I see no evidence of direct tracing. Given the circumstances I'm glad to see how professionally you've handled this situation.

Why are people so bloody pathetic that they go around accusing others of tracing. I've had this experiance myself. Alot of the time I think the one making the accusations is just jealous of the fact that someone is talented enough to be able to draw extremley closely to the other artist's style. As well as long as the artist clearly marks that it is a piece of fan art and that they do not personally own the character, pointing credit and ownership to the true artist then what on earth is the problem?

I would be flattered if someone drew one of my characters as fan art. If anyone cares to look at my gallery they will find Fisk, Lucy and Sheila Black, Sissy, Zig Zag, Darke Katt, many Disney characters and a couple of Pokemon. I drew them because I admire the characters and the artists that drew them, simple as. Everyone needs to stop getting their tails and tentacles in a twist!

P.s I really like Ziggie's work! *Watches*

Geez, I mean it's similar, but not *that* similar. It certainly doesn't look traced to me.

Good luck, I kinda hope they leave her alone.

As you said, it's like...well, the internet will be the internet :( Goons lurk everywhere to freak out on people.

My work derives from no less than like... 11 different artists, some not even furry. Hell, some of my scenery borrows from crap I learned from Bob Ross on PBS. The danger of studying the work of only ONE artist, and learning heavily from that, is that your work will be very recognized as being "too" similar. The muzzle and eye style is particularly closely applied by this artist, which I think is what puts her work into the uncanny range.

I think one of the best examples of this outside of this place is the comic "The Argyle Sweater". The work on this comic is so similar to the artists mentor, Gary Larson, that the artist is repeatedly accused of ripping off Larson, and even copying his work and style completely. Some comic ideas were even, though possibly unintended, too similar to some of Larson's work, which only created more trouble for this artist.

If people like a style, there will always be those who imitate the style. It's only when specific works are copied outright that there becomes a true ethical issue with it. That said, I agree with Fisk, in that the artist would probably benefit from expanding her style a little, and creating something similar, but unique.

We can all benefit from learning how to draw an ass like Fisk, but we can still apply what we learn to our own character creation style! :3

I understand this. I've had lots of reports of tracing and art theft this year.

Some were troublesome and some weren't all that important. Most of the cases were people posting images without giving proper credit, though they didn't erase my watermark, so I didn't see ill intentions there and everything was solved after talking with them.

Is great that people keep an eye out there for your art, but it could be very helpful if we could find a more practical definition of what is art theft and what's not to avoid problem for both parties. Or at least each artist stating what's art theft for them. I hate to cause trouble to people who are simply using my art as learning reference without bad intentions. But that's just me :P

Your stuff's real good. I wonder how I hadn't stumbled upon it before now.

Maybe because it's not THAT good XD

Luckily I did find yours earlier in my life and liked it from the beginning! I did my share of learning from it too, hahaha

The style IS similar, but mostly use of colour and shading, to me...

Some people will see copying, tracing, and theft in everything they look at. For some reason the idea that art styles can be similar seem to fall flat with these people. I looked over her art and while I can see some similarities I have to agree, I see nothing specific that screams "TRACER!" I'm glad you see that as well and I agree with your statement, that the accusations will continue until hwer work begins to evolve into its own thing. I'll be watchign to see it slowly happen. :)

I looked at her gallery and it does look a lot like yours, but then again many great artists' styles look alike, such as  mastergodai and  Chalodillo and many of the FA artists from Japan seem to have very similar feels as well. That's just the way it is sometimes......cute girl too...I think I might have to watch her now.

Honestly, I don't see why people were getting their panties in a bunch here. Rarely did an aspiring artist just start drawing one day and develop an entirely unique style. They'll usually use another artist's piece as a reference point, in some fashion. So developing similarities isn't that unusual until they start to refine their talent.

Seriously, unless it's a blatant knockoff or direct trace, don't go harassing emerging artists. The last thing the fandom needs is a torch mob driving off potential new creators.

If I ever traced something (for whatever the reason), I would put whose art I just copied in the description should I decide to post it - plain and simple. Wouldn't that solve all the problems?

The problem isn't tracing, it's deception.

Well, I myself dont do any tracing (Or much by way of drawing period) but when I do and want to emulate a style, I'll 'eyeball' someone's art and try to use that style. Done a few like that using DripRat's style, those are in my gallery.

Tracing is not a good thing but can you really get after someone for copying their style? I mean arnt all the Bronies copying the style of the show when they do their art?

:b

I feel her pain, had someone accused my tracing/stealing one your pics, just cause the image in question just happen to have similar pose and species as yours. I try not to reference other people work unless it for commission that requires me to reference a character or particular art style, preferring to use photos or just my imagination whenever possible.

And Ziggie13 has some interesting work. Watched.

Thank you for puttin this up, i really appreciate it sir, i think once everyone saw this all accusation of tracing were laid to rest and it actually got me alot of new watchers. Im defiantely taking your advice anddevolping my style further. Im really sorry that you had to be brought into all this drama, but i thank you very much. Your a good man, and i really appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedule.

I see the similarities and yeah, people are often quick to light the torches and whip out the pitchforks. Only thing about this is I hope it doesn't have a reverse effect of drawing MORE negative attention, or even people that will be more... vicious, just to troll.

My personal advice to add to this, if that happens, is to just ignore them. It's been hashed out between the only two parties it should ever fuckin matter to, and anyone else who feels the need to take up arms should be culled from the gene pool at this point because it's not their damn business now. (I'd say it never was but to be fair, people are just 'defending' the potentially ignorant victim party initially, but now since it's known that Fisk is aware and has responded to the person, it is no one else's business.)

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

My only quip is that if an artist followed my work for study purposes, and it shows a significant amount of similar details, that they simply referenced me. My concern here is only for artworks that are, without contest, original in artistic style. However, in most cases this is not even needed since the fans themselves will know a difference between the artwork. Even strangers, sometimes. So there's really no need to worry over the matter because the aspiring artist will be recognized as just that. Now, if someone saw the Sonic art I did recently and decided they'd go with that style who am I to stop them? It's heavily inspired by a brand source anyways.

I personally don't see why anyone would call said accused out on copying / tracing. In fact, I've seen a lot of styles on FA that look nothing different -- save for a coloring technique, mayhap. No offense to either artist, or artists with this type of style, but it is a pretty generic style. Simple, easy, efficient, lots of people will attempt to develop a style like this. But the vast majority of styles on FA are generic, because they all generally stem from the same major sources we all grew up with our saw in our childhood's and etcetra. And gog, if they ever stopped a moment to care about who was ripping off their business materials we're all screwed.

No one seems to get butt plugged about the similarities with coloring in artworks, but that is just as crucial to an artist's style as well.

Art is a journey -- a long, painful, heartrending process. One that only an artist will understand. We're all still growing and have things to achieve. There's not one of us that can say "my work is perfect and without flaw" because it's not, and never will be. There's always something, or one thing holding us back. It goes without saying that every artist struggles to improve. People should realize how much of a process art is and encourage rather than rage hate. Especially for those of us artists that people don't immediately love and fav because of our abilities thus far.

/ late /
/ two cents /
/ cape flip, exit stage left /

Huge differences in how you both handle anatomy details and some differences in proportions.

Now, things like the following would raise my brow:

http://fav.me/d4aenua
http://fav.me/d493exc
http://fav.me/d2k7ts8
http://fav.me/d27bufa

They're on deviant art, and those look like tracings, unlike  ziggie13

Wow. Three out of four of those aren't even traces. They're the exact images.

I figured; one was a trace and color of a sketch I'm betting. Used to be friends with that fellow; found out he's dishonest and sneaky. Would be nice to see him someday hoisted by his own petard.

His FA is  yohon Haven't heard a peep from him in forever, can't even say if he's still breathing, but something tells me he's probably lurking somewhere, being unpleasant.

http://fav.me/d2k7tol was probably traced, inked and colored to http://fav.me/d2k7ts8

Was that right?

None of those links work now.. so I'm guessing they are still around

Naylor must have made  yohon clean his gallery of the stolen art. Sometimes it's good when honesty is forced.

true :)

I can see similarities but definitely not tracing, nor would I call on such.

many times I've seen art of very famous artists being so similar to each other but there are enough key differences to my art-eye.

I guess that's usually how net is... true artists take a few seconds to find differences... drawing a new pose makes others tracers, if the pose is similar in even a little finger -w-

gawd, that's what I hate of the net

..I'm not at all surprised.
People copy popular artists' styles all the time. I see it mostly with onta and wolfy-nail's art.
When it comes to originality,a lot of people just suck. They can't branch off and develop something unique to them, they have to sit and practice over and over, and imitate someone else..
sure, such things bring popularity.. but what good is it of you're known as a copycat?
It's too bad, really.

This looks heavily influenced by you. Sorry but the first thing I thought when i saw her gallery (and I just did now) is 'fisk'. I know it's silly, but I can clearly see elements of someone who started drawing recently. Every single pick seems like it has part of different pictures merged together. Even the body language is the same. =/

I definitely see the similarities and whilst not traced, it's very obvious she's heavily referenced you.
I would however be a bit more sympathetic towards her if it were not for her attitude.
19 is an adult and she reacted like a child. Proof has been given that she references you and she was adamant to the point of tantruming in denying everything. I would have had a lot more respect for her as an artist if she'd simply put her hands up and said "yeah his work influenced me and I referenced some pieces" . I'm fairy certain the hate wouldn't have continued to such an extent if she'd shown a tad more maturity.

I see a lot of you in her work, however it doesn't seem traced. I don't think it's intentional, however she just got herself a lot of attention from your watchers, myself included. She has some maturing to do, but that should come with time.

*goes to the Accused's gallery*
The layout to some of the intimiate pics is very similar to that used by Our Host, but the overall styling could hardly be called a rip-off.
There are some other artists around here, whose mutual stylings are so close as to be identical.
This is a trolltastic non-issue.

.. People who think she traced your art should really consider about going to see an eye doctor. Seriously. The only blatant similarity I saw is in the way she cut some of her "comic" pages, very similar to your. For the rest, I may say she looks like being inspired by your art, but it's still eons apart from tracing.

Checked out the artist's gallery and a comic she posted up bears a resemblance, but that really is it. I don't think the rest of her art looks hardly anything like yours.

i havee a question for you.

how do you manage to get everybody to hate you so much ? i mean, everywhere on the internet...

even yesterday i was browsing some mlp related on a site where everybody talks about friendship, love and tolerance... 'til one guy/girl posted a few drawing you did, and they flamed 'em before the staff permaban him and change his Sweetiebelle avatar to Slobodan Milošević's portrait.

Obviously not everybody. I don't suffer fools well and used to be much more combative about it, so there is a core of people who actively participate in message boards and such, who really dislike me. But they don't represent everybody. They just bleat pretty loudly.

There are many furry-hating losers on the internet. xD And Fisk happens to be a very popular furry artist.

Not that all people who hate furries are losers, because that's not true. Just ones who'd actually waste their life bashing others.

If it's a complaint about similarities in style, then amateurs just need to learn that's not a subject to be brought up, it's no crime or issue to be similar in any form or fashion, or how close you are to someone else, a blatant copy of the image when it's copyrighted is when it's an issue, with the copier claiming that's his/her work.

If some pics even look like they're heavily referenced (they probably are), or even just somewhat reffed, I think that the person drawing them should give credit to the original artist, at least. If not, they need to learn how to draw their own way, and not continue to keep copying other artists.

Even if I'm only using the pose or whatnot for a ref, I always give credit.

I do see similarities but no tracing for my part

Some of it seems similar between both you and Mikhail. Not saying she's tracing yada yada, but if I had to pick some of the similarities I do see, it would be something I'd see from both of your guys' stuff, not just yours. Then again, I'd be wrong since it's her style.

Pft, she should just link anyone who accuses her of that to a picture of a middle finger protruding upwards at a 90 degree angle from the hand.

People having sames art style (different lvl of exp on it) I have seen some before...
I agree than both artist (You and Ziggie13) have a style who look really familiar. And its good! ^w^
People like me like to see some different character in different style at some time.

Personally, my own style is a huge mix of a lot of artist's style, that I remasterized, upgraded and modified to done one big future bad ass style! :D
As I seen, I'm the only one here who have the actual style I have. :3