I just... I cant comprehend what would cause someone to do something like that... this time of year... an ELEMENTARY school... those that survived will wonder what they did to cause this... years of potential mental problems to go with it... an area of safety taken away from them.

Parents wont know if they should let their kid go on the school bus and may now have a fear that everyday their child may become part of a horrible massacre.

There is nothing to excuse a man for taking whatever his problem was out on children.. soon every school will have security systems and teams because it cant trust the outside world any longer..

What is wrong with this world....

I have to admit that I don't really feel anything for the victims or their families (maybe I'm disconnected somehow?) but every time something like this happens it baffles me, the reason to take such people as school kids (young or almost adult, doesn't matter) for target.
It's not a revenge, nor attempt to "win" anything or message or well, anything at all. The total lack of logic and pointlessness of such deaths is just mindboggling.

I don't get why people still don't reconsider the law to possess weapons in the USA. Guns are so easy to come by there, I know the main argument is "we have a right to defend ourselves" but what would you need to defend yourself from if nobody HAS weapons? These children couldn't defend themselves either way. You just need some maniac to get the crazy idea into their head and they can execute it relatively easily.

How helpless must these parents feel, having lost their child and knowing that the one responsible is dead and so will never truly pay for what he did. Terrible, truly terrible.

"What do we need to defend ourselves if no one has weapons?"

Criminals. The people who will have guns regardless of whether or not it is legal to have them. I legally carry a concealed weapon because California decided to release hundreds of prisoners due to budgetary issues, and I'm worried some con will get the bright idea to rape me. There has already been a noticeable spike in crime and incidents of rape where I live. I'm of the opinion most would-be woman predators would think twice if they knew that they face the possibility of being neutered via .357.

A gun is at the end of the day, an inanimate object. It is all in who holds the weapon.

There are far, far more unsung stories about how guns have saved the day in many home invasion attempts, store robbery attempts, attempted rapes, or other scenarios. Banning guns isn't the answer, even though the result of this scenario will likely be more gun legislation.

The more pertinent questions (in my opinion) we should be asking is the hows and whyfores of the gunmens motives, actions, and what they expected to gain. Perhaps we need to be asking if this is a symptom of a bigger problem, or if this was yet another instance of where people failed to pay attention (as I suspect it was).

"There are far, far more unsung stories about how guns have saved the day in many home invasion attempts, store robbery attempts, attempted rapes, or other scenarios."

There are other means to defend yourself than with a gun; the problem with having a gun is, if it's the only thing you can defend yourself with chances are it's going to get out of hand pretty quickly, especially if the offender has a gun as well and doesn't like feeling threatened. While the amount of "small crimes" are currently lower in the USA than in most other western countries (which is a recent development I should add; criminality has dropped in most developed countries and 30 years ago the USA wasn't doing very well in that regard at all) the amount of homicides in the USA is disproportionally high.

If you want to defend yourself from being raped (which is obviously very understandable), why not use pepper spray? Why a gun? Would you actually even fire it in such a situation (if you ever got that far)? Not to mention that, if you do fire and either seriously injure or kill your offender, wouldn't that make you a criminal as well? It would in my country.

You see where I live only 3.9 percent of all adults own a gun (as opposed to 88.8 percent in the USA) and while crime rates are not necessarily lower here (Netherlands), considerably less people are shot dead when things go wrong and mass shootings are a very rare thing. The argument that you need to defend yourself with a gun is understandable but I doubt it's true necessity. Mass shootings are becoming considerably less rare in the USA and in how many of those cases did a regular civilian draw their own gun and shoot down the murderer? It's just not as effective as many people think and when sh*t is actually happening I doubt you can count on regular people to make responsible decisions and act as a police force. The chances of even criminals owning a (real) gun around here is fairly rare, while all police officers do carry one. I don't think I would feel comfortable knowing that every other person in the streets is probably carrying a weapon regardless of their state of mind, cultural background or shooting experience. That's just me of course.

And of course the problem lies with the people; that is why I would ask if it's a good idea to give all people easy access to such force multipliers. The more planning and hassle it takes to obtain a weapon, the smaller the chance that some nut who gets a weird idea into his head will actually execute it. The common argument to that is "but anything could be used as a weapon', which is true, but how often do you hear of mass murders that involved, say, chainsaws or screw drivers or knives? Guns simply make such deeds considerably easier to execute and the fact that some things can be used as weapons doesn't justify the legalization of another in my opinion.

I had to think very, very carefully before responding to this. There is a lot of material here I could respond to. Actually, I could write a book about some of the subject material here... as I think this highlights a difference in ideologies on the subject... something probably not suited for debate on FA, so I'll stick to my own practical applications and try not to go too far out on a limb as far as things go... you gave me a lot to think about.

Ever heard the phrase "Don't bring a knife to a gun fight"? I have many other objects that could be used against a would be-attacker. I have a taser, pepper spray, and even a can of bear mace - the kind that shoots for 30 feet and is designed to ward off grizzly bears. I am also skilled in fighting off assailants with knives, or my bare hands if worse comes to worse. I am also highly cognizant of my surroundings, frequently watching people or interactions in my general area to gauge what might be transpiring around me. Still, I prefer a gun for a variety of practical reasons.

Unlike most thugs with weapons, a gun to me is not a symbol of power. It's a tool. A valuable tool to someone like me who lives in a rural area. It is a means of merciful death to livestock that gets injured to the point where taking it to a large animal vet is impossible. It is also a means of protection against wild animals that menace me or my livestock. Sadly, I have also been in the position where I have needed to protect my animals from dogs that the owners let roam loose unsupervised. Said dogs were responsible for killing some of my livestock - livestock I depend upon for food. Tasers and bear spray fail where a gun works. The other aspect of this, is I live in an area where the only local law enforcement is the County Sheriff, who on a good day, may be an hour away from responding. In some parts of this county, you're looking at three hours for a response. That is a considerable timeframe for an attacker or robber to get away, and more than enough time for the trail to go cold - as it has done up here on many an occasion (fortunately not to me or my house). It is left to us to be mindful, watchful, and to have a means of protecting ourselves in the event something bad does happen. ( Where I live - Shasta county - is approximately three times the size of Rhode Island, to give you an idea of how big it is)

Now, as far as a weapon as protection from people, it has particular advantages. It it the only weapon that can be effective against multiple assailants, and is a weapon unique in that it almost always gives assailants pause. Most states have laws about when and where lethal force may be used - in the case of home invasion most states have a clause that is similar to the "Your home is your castle" idea where you are obligated to protect it and you, and the courts rule favorably towards the protector in such instances. If the person who is being attacked is genuinely in fear for their lives, then the court generally rules favorably for them - but the circumstances and all that are left to the judge and jury to interpret - here it does not automatically make you a criminal. In my own personal use, I have not yet has the situation where I have needed to draw a gun on someone. As someone who legally carries, I do not go bandying about with a gun visible on my hip - it defeats the purpose of carrying concealed, and it invites trouble. I have received specialized training in when and where and how it is appropriate to use such force. The laws here read that you shouldn't even draw your weapon until you are imminently and immediately in danger, or in fear for your life - in other words, once you draw, you have made the commitment to potentially killing someone in self defense. THIS IS NOT EVER SOMETHING TO BE TAKEN OR DONE LIGHTLY. I can't emphasize that enough, nor can a lot of my friends who are peace officers. This should be drilled into anyone's head who wants to carry. Yet, I still feel safer having one tucked into my jacket, and one guarding my animals. If the situation arose to where I was threatened to that degree... yes. I would shoot my assailant. And I would do so without a twinge of guilt because I would have to be pushed to the point where I felt I was in immediate danger to have done so.

So.. my point is that guns have a practical use and purpose in protection, and it is something I take very seriously. Do we need more gun legislation? Possibly. But this is where we get into the nitty-gritty of how do you sort out good gun owners from bad, and other sticky questions. Questions that I alone am certainly not in charge of other than by being a good example.

That is fair enough, I can completely understand the use of a gun to defend your livestock or yourself from wild predators. With humans though it's just tricky. I can't imagine a gun being useful when you're being assaulted by multiple people, I mean the moment you start shooting at one chances are they will shoot you down before you get even the second. It's good that you are so responsible with your weapons though, it's just that I doubt all people who carry weapons out there think it through as well as you do.

It's probably also a cultural thing. In my own country I just can't imagine everyone wearing guns freely, there are no stores that sell them and seeing a person carry one (a police officer) is always quite intimidating. Despite the fact that it IS an inanimate object, it is the only one out of a list of weapons that can be used to harm other people that is specifically designed to harm and/or kill. It is it's only purpose. That makes it a bit more threatening in and of itself I suppose.

Thanks for being so reasonable and calm in this discussion; it's rare that I get to talk about gun legalization with a USA citizen without them jumping straight to their defense and ridiculing us (or vice versa) for the way we do things.

People are cruel heartless bastards at the best of times.

Sadly, I feel that this will only result in the political move of demanding more legislation on guns. Will we question the gunmans motives, the how and whyfores of what he did, and perhaps consider that this is part of a much bigger problem? Or was it that someone failed to notice an increasingly bad situation that was brewing (as I suspect it was)?

No, no. Far more easy to pin the blame on an inanimate object than point fingers at people who might have contributed or stopped the situation before it got to this point. The people that were in charge of that kid have just as much blood on their hands as he did.

Whilst finding out what his motives were (and the fact that the mental health care system in the States is horrifying in and of itself) I don't think it'd hurt to have firearms restricted a little more.

Over here we have a ban on handguns after a similar massacre at a school and whilst criminals still get a hold of them, it's not resulted in a rocket in assaults and the like.

Then again I am just nervous about LET'S ARM EVERYONE because I can't help but feel that letting more people have firearms might not make the situation any better ;_;

I have no qualms with responsible people such as yourself having legal possession of guns.

I just wish I knew something that would make it all better but there's no one solution :(

I tend to think that an armed society is a polite society. You don't often hear of robbers trying to hold up a gun store (unless they have a death wish), but I do think they would think twice about robbing a bank if they knew that the teller, or any one of the other customers in the bank could be carrying a gun. I certainly feel more safe with a handgun holstered under my jacket (legally with a carry concealed permit) when I have to go to questionable and seedy parts of town. Even moreso now that California had the brilliant idea of letting a whole bunch of criminals loose due to budgetary problems. There have been home invasions of the kind that makes your hair curl to think about them, rapes, robberies...

I am a responsible gun owner, and I have trained others - even kids - about safely handling firearms. I do resent the idea of taking away of my right to own firearms because I am not a criminal, nor do I deserve to be stripped of the protection my revolver offers me - from "problems" be they two-legged or four. So it begs the question... where to draw the line? How do you separate out responsible gun owners from irresponsible gun owners? I shouldn't be painted or assumed to be a potential homicidal maniac because I have several firearms. I am waiting to see what conclusions they draw out of the entire situation, as they still seem to be very close lipped about it (for good reason...).

Yeah, it would be ahah but it also has the potential to go very bad, very quickly if you get a bunch of idiots together who happen to disagree and lack the common sense to know better. Which is a lot of people all over the globe these days <_>

I have no qualms with inanimate objects or people in charge of them who are reasonable and law-abiding. It's like banning knives because some people get stabbed (infact, I think more people might get stabbed than shot, though I'm not sure) though over here you're not allowed to carry any large blade or switch-knives. Pocket knives/swiss army type knives are allowed within reason; I carried one for years until I lost the bastard.

It's stupid for people to take it out on folk like you who are just living their lives and not waving their guns like some sort of phallic replacement because yeah, taking guns away won't stop people from getting a hold of them and shooting everyone up. Even over here people still get hold of firearms and shoot people and surprising amounts of guns are turned in during amnesties.

But on the other side I -do- think it should be at least a little harder for people to get and keep guns. It won't stop responsible people from getting a hold of them but it might discourage anyone wanting to get one just to show off or look cool, and if there were more thorough assessments they'd maybe pick up on people who really, really shouldn't have anything dangerous. I do think giving teachers and schools firearms is a very, very bad idea but maybe that's just my personal feeling because it makes me really uneasy :(

However even totally sane people free from mental health issues can snap and go nuts so I dunno which side to fall on in this argument, I will forever sit on the fence and try to be reasonable with both ;_;

(And try to avoid coming off as the pansy).

ps I think the thing that makes me feel sick about this is the poor dude the news falsely identified as being the killer, guy's gonna have to change his name to avoid some of the assholes I've already seen baying for blood.

Can the world stop being a horrible place now? I just want everyone to be happy and get get along somewhat nicely ;-;

are school shootings just becoming more publicized or are they suddenly more common?