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You, artists, refunds, paypal and chargebacks
12 years ago
General
‧͙⁺˚*･༓☾☽༓･*˚⁺‧ Taken from
There have been some disturbing trends in the furry commission world that I'd like to take a moment to address.
First, artists and commissioners:
No Refund clauses are not okay. They would not hold up in court. I understand furry doesn't typically end up in court, but there's a reason everyone you buy from can't just take your money and say no refunds. This is not A Thing you are Allowed To Do.
And yet it seems to have become popular for artists to put this in their Terms of Service. It is another thing entirely to have a bad commissioner and only want to refund them for work you haven't done, and that is not what I'm discussing here. I am also not discussing non-refundable deposits on fursuits. I'm discussing throwing in a no refunds clause and deciding it's okay to keep the money of people you don't like or who have upset you in some way, or even just to point at if the client wants a refund so you can go, "Well look, you agreed to my TOS, so that means no refund and now I don't have to do your art! Yay!". Just because you write something in your TOS and the commissioner seemingly agrees to it, that doesn't necessarily make it legally binding. You really can't just put whatever you want in a TOS.
No, you can't do that. There is no real circumstance where it would be legal or morally okay to both keep someone's money and their product. If a client is being a huge jerk and you don't want to work for them anymore, refund them and blacklist them. Don't be the worse person by becoming a thief. I'd personally rather hang out with a jerk than someone who would steal from me. Though I suppose they could be both, huh?
And to commissioners, please read your artist's TOS before you commission them, and if you see something shady like a no refund clause, DON'T COMMISSION THEM! This is a big red flag. Just.. don't do it. The kind of people who would have these clauses to begin with are usually the ones a little more likely to screw you (and they're the ones that often end up on AB...). And not the good kind.
Onto the second problem.
There has been an unfortunate rash of chargebacks in the community lately. Someone, somewhere, decided that if paying through paypal with a credit card, they can merely wait until they receive the art and then file a chargeback via their bank, and tada!! Free art!
This is fraud. This is Theft of Services. Yes, that is a real crime. I understand furries aren't exactly known for taking legal action, but before you think you're so smart in your ill-gotten piles of porn art, understand that you are taking a great risk, and for what? You're going to risk being arrested/sued for the sake of pictures of your character? Ridiculous.
For the artists, there is unfortunately not much that can be done to curb this. With paypal, they will want some sort of proof of shipping, and for many artists they simply won't have it as it would be for digital works. What's worse, the length of time people can charge back is far longer than the 45 days provided by paypal. Many times, people can chargeback up to roughly a year! All I can recommend it to use invoices (which won't necessarily protect you, but will let you keep things more organized), to always make sure you have enough in your paypal/bank account to cover a possible chargeback, and if you really want to get creative, you can start shipping something for every digital piece that you do. Just make sure you label your invoices in such a way that it looks like the client is paying for what it is you're sending, and that the art is just a little thing on the side. However, this is impractical and may scare off clients who think you'll use that same reasoning to screw them, as they would likely not be able to get their money back via paypal as long as you sent that object, regardless of whether you actually created the art you owed.
This will likely continue to be a problem until someone chargebacks the wrong person, and ends up arrested/in court. People will hear about it, and most (not all, people who do these things don't tend to be very smart) will realize risking such an extreme punishment isn't worth pictures of their wolf trying to look sexy. If it happens to you, make sure you post your experience on artists_beware and do your best to get the word out so others can avoid being scammed.
One last thing... paypal fees. I still regularly find artists who erronously believe it is okay to put in their TOS or otherwise that the client must pay the paypal fees. This is against paypal's terms of service and will get your account FROZEN. The fee is for you, the seller to pay, as you are taking advantage of their service to make money. It is perfectly reasonable for paypal to want a small cut.
You also can not ask your clients to pay as a gift to avoid the fee entirely, for the same reason above. Simply put, don't try to get around paying the fee. It is expected that artists will consider paypal fees in their prices to begin with.
That said, if a client chooses to put in a couple dollars to cover the fee of their own free will, that's okay! And very kind of them. Make a point to thank clients who do this, because they don't have to!
Commissioners: Never pay your artist via the Gift tab in paypal. You may think you're being nice, but not only could you accidentally get them frozen, if the artist ends up not doing your work, you will not be able to get your money back via paypal. You can not open a dispute on a payment that was sent as a gift! If you want to pay the fees for them, consider tacking on another 5 dollars or so, instead. Artists will appreciate it and will remember a client that regularly goes out of their way to do so!
I hope something in this mass of text helps somebody.
There have been some disturbing trends in the furry commission world that I'd like to take a moment to address.
First, artists and commissioners:
No Refund clauses are not okay. They would not hold up in court. I understand furry doesn't typically end up in court, but there's a reason everyone you buy from can't just take your money and say no refunds. This is not A Thing you are Allowed To Do.
And yet it seems to have become popular for artists to put this in their Terms of Service. It is another thing entirely to have a bad commissioner and only want to refund them for work you haven't done, and that is not what I'm discussing here. I am also not discussing non-refundable deposits on fursuits. I'm discussing throwing in a no refunds clause and deciding it's okay to keep the money of people you don't like or who have upset you in some way, or even just to point at if the client wants a refund so you can go, "Well look, you agreed to my TOS, so that means no refund and now I don't have to do your art! Yay!". Just because you write something in your TOS and the commissioner seemingly agrees to it, that doesn't necessarily make it legally binding. You really can't just put whatever you want in a TOS.
No, you can't do that. There is no real circumstance where it would be legal or morally okay to both keep someone's money and their product. If a client is being a huge jerk and you don't want to work for them anymore, refund them and blacklist them. Don't be the worse person by becoming a thief. I'd personally rather hang out with a jerk than someone who would steal from me. Though I suppose they could be both, huh?
And to commissioners, please read your artist's TOS before you commission them, and if you see something shady like a no refund clause, DON'T COMMISSION THEM! This is a big red flag. Just.. don't do it. The kind of people who would have these clauses to begin with are usually the ones a little more likely to screw you (and they're the ones that often end up on AB...). And not the good kind.
Onto the second problem.
There has been an unfortunate rash of chargebacks in the community lately. Someone, somewhere, decided that if paying through paypal with a credit card, they can merely wait until they receive the art and then file a chargeback via their bank, and tada!! Free art!
This is fraud. This is Theft of Services. Yes, that is a real crime. I understand furries aren't exactly known for taking legal action, but before you think you're so smart in your ill-gotten piles of porn art, understand that you are taking a great risk, and for what? You're going to risk being arrested/sued for the sake of pictures of your character? Ridiculous.
For the artists, there is unfortunately not much that can be done to curb this. With paypal, they will want some sort of proof of shipping, and for many artists they simply won't have it as it would be for digital works. What's worse, the length of time people can charge back is far longer than the 45 days provided by paypal. Many times, people can chargeback up to roughly a year! All I can recommend it to use invoices (which won't necessarily protect you, but will let you keep things more organized), to always make sure you have enough in your paypal/bank account to cover a possible chargeback, and if you really want to get creative, you can start shipping something for every digital piece that you do. Just make sure you label your invoices in such a way that it looks like the client is paying for what it is you're sending, and that the art is just a little thing on the side. However, this is impractical and may scare off clients who think you'll use that same reasoning to screw them, as they would likely not be able to get their money back via paypal as long as you sent that object, regardless of whether you actually created the art you owed.
This will likely continue to be a problem until someone chargebacks the wrong person, and ends up arrested/in court. People will hear about it, and most (not all, people who do these things don't tend to be very smart) will realize risking such an extreme punishment isn't worth pictures of their wolf trying to look sexy. If it happens to you, make sure you post your experience on artists_beware and do your best to get the word out so others can avoid being scammed.
One last thing... paypal fees. I still regularly find artists who erronously believe it is okay to put in their TOS or otherwise that the client must pay the paypal fees. This is against paypal's terms of service and will get your account FROZEN. The fee is for you, the seller to pay, as you are taking advantage of their service to make money. It is perfectly reasonable for paypal to want a small cut.
You also can not ask your clients to pay as a gift to avoid the fee entirely, for the same reason above. Simply put, don't try to get around paying the fee. It is expected that artists will consider paypal fees in their prices to begin with.
That said, if a client chooses to put in a couple dollars to cover the fee of their own free will, that's okay! And very kind of them. Make a point to thank clients who do this, because they don't have to!
Commissioners: Never pay your artist via the Gift tab in paypal. You may think you're being nice, but not only could you accidentally get them frozen, if the artist ends up not doing your work, you will not be able to get your money back via paypal. You can not open a dispute on a payment that was sent as a gift! If you want to pay the fees for them, consider tacking on another 5 dollars or so, instead. Artists will appreciate it and will remember a client that regularly goes out of their way to do so!
I hope something in this mass of text helps somebody.
It's really fucked up, to put it bluntly.
Though on the other hand while I knew most of this stuff before I hand let me say this as I dunno who will:
Thank you for taking the time and putting in the effort to write this up.
I just copy pasted ^^
The only thing I didn't know about was Chargebacks. WTF, how is that legal? Ug.
It isn't, really. It's just that most people can't afford or don't want to take the time to pursue these things, legally, so people get away with it.
When the bank performs a chargeback, they're not doing it directly to the artist, is the thing. They're chargebacking paypal itself, who then collects the money from you to make up for what they lost. How it's handled also depends on the bank/card, however. Some are more strict in their process than others.
I've been using paypal for four and a half years now, specifically for furry art, I had never even heard of it before that.
x3
But I've been seeing more and more, people using paypal, specifically their CC, then waiting to be sent the art, traditional or digital, then immediately running to paypal and going "CHARGEBACK! CHARGEBACK!" and... getting away with it.
I won't name names, I won't post urls, [don't want to "incite drama"] but recently a 30 year old scammed an artist I've gotten commissions from, then filed a chargeback, then publicly claimed his parents found out he used their credit card to do it and he had to chargeback or they would have him arrested for theft.
The whole thing smacked of... dishonesty.
First, thirty and you had to steal mom and pop's CC?
o.O
Fuck son, I'm almost thirty, I don't use mom's CC, I use mine, and only when I know I can cover it.
O___O
Um... I sorta went off on a tangent there.
Chargebacks and gifts, don't do it people.
I see a weird TOS on an artist's page, you know, things like "no refund" or just generally weirdly worded things I can't wrap my brain around, I close the tab and find another artist.
Simple.
o.q
*vanishes*
I had to delay a commission once, thankfully the artist had not started yet, because I had an emergency come up and I had to use the money for that.
They understood and put me on a waiting list for another slot, problem solved.
But this... I shake my head at it
Even if they deserved it in the end.
I will not be doing that anymore...
And do you think sending an invoice to the buyer would help with the charge-back problem??
This whole things scares me out of taking and getting commissions. T.T
Thankfully when I first started buying art I didn't send as gift, so I might still be able to get my money back from an artist who refuses to either cough up art owed (4 months ago) or a refund.
Thankfully I have been lucky enough to not have much other commission issues.
UGH, this is killing my motivation to do art even more.
Chargebacks suck balls :/ I was hit over christmas with a douchebag who decided to do it. Been using invoices ever since, and selecting services, if i send a payment to an artist who doesn't i always select "no shipping required" to cover their asses.
Also paypal fees, it makes my blood boil when i see an artist say "if you dont cover paypal fees your commission wont be started etc." You're using a service, just like at a bank or an ATM you're paying a fee. I just see it as paying a "tax" on each commission, as you can write it off at tax time anyways. I try to let the artist's who try and get the paypal fee know that what they're doing is against the TOS, some listen, some don't. At the end of the day it's their account being compromised if they don't listen.