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On the IMVU Sale
10 years ago
A lot of people are wondering "why". That's a natural question.
I've always wanted to be able to work on FA full time, improve the site, and really invest into the community. Towards the end of last year, my free time plummeted drastically. I worked for Amazon AWS, keeping the cloud fluffy and sites like Netflix and Reddit happy with all the kibbles and bits they could offer. I was also working upwards of 80 hours a week, denied vacation, denied days off, even threatened by management over wanting to take a day off for Thanksgiving.
Things got bad.
Through December, I received many offers to sell FA. Some wanted the site just to turn it into a store front, but in doing so wanted to dismantle the site. Others wanted to buy it LITERALLY just to shut it down. I didn't want any of that. Money was good, and some really high figures were thrown out, but I legitimately care about the community. I haven't done this for 10 years out of my own time and energy just to see someone come in and rip it apart.
IMVU offered to help the site with funding and support the site as is. They're the only group who didn't want to tear it down, but help build it up. That group: IMVU. They wanted to help fund the site and support it in order to help grow their large furry community base. That was it. Their goal was solely to grow the community. They get more users, we get more users. Everything works out.
IMVU has been hands-off on the site, and have been doing nothing but supporting us and helping us make the improvements we need. I know a sale like this is hard to fathom, and it was hard for me to put my trust into a community like that. FA's already got massive infrastructure changes under way, new servers, new storage options and more support. The community is going to grow, improve and better itself over time!
Just take a deep breath. =) Things are only going to improve from here on out. I know it's rough and scary, and there's a lot of questions out there, but things are improving.
I've always wanted to be able to work on FA full time, improve the site, and really invest into the community. Towards the end of last year, my free time plummeted drastically. I worked for Amazon AWS, keeping the cloud fluffy and sites like Netflix and Reddit happy with all the kibbles and bits they could offer. I was also working upwards of 80 hours a week, denied vacation, denied days off, even threatened by management over wanting to take a day off for Thanksgiving.
Things got bad.
Through December, I received many offers to sell FA. Some wanted the site just to turn it into a store front, but in doing so wanted to dismantle the site. Others wanted to buy it LITERALLY just to shut it down. I didn't want any of that. Money was good, and some really high figures were thrown out, but I legitimately care about the community. I haven't done this for 10 years out of my own time and energy just to see someone come in and rip it apart.
IMVU offered to help the site with funding and support the site as is. They're the only group who didn't want to tear it down, but help build it up. That group: IMVU. They wanted to help fund the site and support it in order to help grow their large furry community base. That was it. Their goal was solely to grow the community. They get more users, we get more users. Everything works out.
IMVU has been hands-off on the site, and have been doing nothing but supporting us and helping us make the improvements we need. I know a sale like this is hard to fathom, and it was hard for me to put my trust into a community like that. FA's already got massive infrastructure changes under way, new servers, new storage options and more support. The community is going to grow, improve and better itself over time!
Just take a deep breath. =) Things are only going to improve from here on out. I know it's rough and scary, and there's a lot of questions out there, but things are improving.
I know, simply because I make furries on there for sale and watch the economy of the the sales on furs.
Issue I have with all of this...
Is while I make money on IMVU, the company itself is shady and backhanded..
And soooo much furry hate exists on there.
The just recently started to offer a furry starting avatar, but you'll still rooms, forum threads, etc...
Where people screaming for furries to be removed.
That they are nothing but animal f-ers and whatnot.
And furries function on an undefined grey area that runs the risk of furries getting in trouble at any time...
Simply because of "Furkinis"
(a piece of clothing to make the fur complete, like Bugs Bunny)
Because people think its encouraging nudity to minors and what have you. -rolls eyes-
But we'll see...
Though I am curious how IMVU is partnered with FA?
IMVU changed their AP from Adult Pass to access Pass, claiming no sex on the site (nudity okay, but no erect penises, cum splats, etc..)
Simply because they claim they cannot sell or market if they allow it (even though AP is only offered to users 18+).
So how is FA okay with everything they have here that is in a direct violation to that.
but for one thing..hatred for fur community is everywhere..anywhere you go will be hatred regardless where you go or visit whether it has to do with online and RL...internet is more freely to hate around with less risk of being sued etc etc. best we can do is hope for the best for this site. and other is to get your watchers you already have on fa to out branch on other fur'd sites as well just in case something happens when things hit the fan..
well it pass or its the end of FA .
But...on the plus side, maybe good things can happen. Like the increase of storage capacity. And new servers so the site can have better funds to get better protection to fight off DDoS attacks.
Sad but true, furry sites get DDoS'd more than any other particular site.
And(was it during the latest years? if at the very beginning then ignore the 'and':P) changed from na art site into a facebook (still WIP but getting closer)
...which also means if someone gets mysteriously strangled with their hand half-way pulling a fire alarm, I won't be eligible for being extradited <.< >.>
Doubtful.
Okay... i keep eye on you.
Damn i should have waited to come back here again...
Oh, wait this acquisition happened back in January?
It's almost like you fed yet another bullshit lie to us, guy.
donations.furaffinity.net
As for the IMVU thing... I'm not worried. Like, at all. It makes sense, I just hope both sites are expanded without too much lashback.
http://donations.furaffinity.net/
$10,000 is still unaccounted for. Because of something that was uttered by a certain someone on Reddit back when the drive was happening, quite a few people have a damn good idea where it went (hint: tax man).
Basically, 'Neer stated that he had a $10k tax bill on reddit. $10k of donation money is missing. Soon after the donation drive ended he started posting on Twitter about a new house he was going to move into.
2+2=4.
Donators basically paid his tax bill. Unless he proves otherwise, that is the most obvious conclusion.
At least the site 'aint dying, that's all I can say! He could have sold it to somebody who would have rend it to one side.
Might as well stop bull-shitting right now.
He just has to ignore people who see what he's doing until they get fed up enough to leave, and continue lying to the ones who haven't caught on yet.
For example: "IMVU offered to help the site with funding and support the site as is. They're the only group who didn't want to tear it down, but help build it up."
https://forums.furaffinity.net/thre.....=1#post5109610
http://en.wikifur.com/wiki/Trapa
So the question is: what made IMVU the better choice to Neer?
Sounds legit, actually.
Furries are just making mountains out of molehills about the situation and i honestly think this is a step forward `-`
After all he needed 3 months nearly to tell us the true when in jan. FA whas given away
Its the simple fact of people getting overworked over things that don't really personally concern them as a whole, unless this is your bussiness [which it is for some] or you for whatever reason donated a high amount of money, there really is no grounds to bitch and complain at Dragoneer for his business decision as a whole. Life goes on, things change.
Dragoneer had no right to sell it without the consent of the community, that is for sure. He hid the deal for 2 months because he knew this.
People say "it was a good decicion, all those people who get upset are haters, they get mad even tho nothing bad happened" and "it's his site, he can do whatever with it" and it really shows how ignorant you are to not think outside the box here. IMVU bought the site as an investment. What used to be a place organized by a community for itself is now part of a cooperation, it now has to serve that financial purpose indefinitely.
You people say "so? it only brings improvements, look: we get all these new servers and stuff". But for what price? This place is now no different from any other commercial online community, it has become a product of a company that doesn't have to give two shits about the community and that is going to impact the site and furries themselves very deeply in the long run. The site will have to be IMVU friendly, the site will have to be useful to it's owners: and any issue the furries have will have to be prioritized under those commercial interests. It didn't have to be this way...
And nothing happened in 3 months did it `-`Omg, pwnt. I think you just knocked alot of people off their battle-chassis :D
There was a time on IMVU where furries were rare, and usually banned. When I joined up, we only had like 6 rooms, always packed, and always plagued by trolls. It's more open to furries now. And mot rooms will have at least one in there with furry avatars.
As a 6 year user of IMVU, though, I will have to say they are scammy, and like to get gullible people to pay for overpriced accessores they don't need. Like "Marriages" which they employed to scam the more gullible roleplayers. Also, back in the day, art theft was rampant when they put everyone's profile pictures and galleries into a competition without giving you a choice - and people were just able to take the pictures. Resulting in some artists' pictures being stolen and used.
They just really don't have a friendly history.
I only mean the premise of course, but no doubt someone will misconstrue that thought and think I'm pointing a conspiracy finger at one of the other furry sites or something. x-x
I just wanted to suggest that in the update you posted about teaming up with IMVU, I think it's a great idea. But I thought maybe if you let all of FA know you're a Staff Member over at IMVU, maybe they'll understand a bit more?
I know I replied to someone earlier in the comments mentioning that, and they actually understood what was going on better. So I just thought suggesting it to you as it may help :)
'cause I know everyone's super scared, or annoyed, or worried thinking you'll have no control over it etc. But it might help is all :)
I think it can be good for both as long and neither has too much control on the other :)
i think
We'll see~
Ain't that the truth.
No you're right, it is. XP
Your journal sounded more like you were telling a little kid there wasn't a monster under the bed.
I think we deserve to know the whole story.
What about the transparency from the admins you keep talking about?
Hell I know good people who have lost jobs due to a buyout at my old company. Literally they came in one day said "Sorry this store is being closed. We were bought out 3 months ago. Sale finalized yesterday. You're all fired"
I don't know how big FA is or the deal itself, but there have been fiascos in the past about deals made but leaked before background work was done to finalize things. Enough so that I can at least give him benefit of the doubt unless it's made clear such extra time wasn't necessary.
Dragoneer had no right to sell it without the consent of the community, that is for sure. He hid the deal for 2 months because he knew this.
People say "it was a good decicion, all those people who get upset are haters, they get mad even tho nothing bad happened" and "it's his site, he can do whatever with it" and it really shows how ignorant you are to not think outside the box here. IMVU bought the site as an investment. What used to be a place organized by a community for itself is now part of a cooperation, it now has to serve that financial purpose indefinitely.
You people say "so? it only brings improvements, look: we get all these new servers and stuff". But for what price? This place is now no different from any other commercial online community, it has become a product of a company that doesn't have to give two shits about the community and that is going to impact the site and furries themselves very deeply in the long run. The site will have to be IMVU friendly, the site will have to be useful to it's owners: and any issue the furries have will have to be prioritized under those commercial interests. It didn't have to be this way...
In the full year ago I commented on this, I haven't seen much change at all, have you? I think you just have a little bit of a complex there buddy. But I'm done arguing on a subject that happened a year ago.
When you have an actual company that is working for not just a fan base but for money too they will get shit done and it will get done fast.
I'm personally hoping that the changes include a cool new chat room style system where people can communicate in some way other than with notes.
One on One chatting with artists, writers and the like would really make this site bloom I feel.
Thing is, Dragoneer, no matter what you do... people are going to call you the bad guy.
FA taking forever to update, site having malfunctions and you're hiring people that offer their help only to find people hate on you because the people have a shady past...
Then, when you find a true plan to get things finally done and can get real support from professionals that the site doesn't know. You will be called a sell out. >.> Gotta love how a community works right?
I'm quite sure a contract was brought up, signed and things during the sale were plotted out and made aware from day one. People freak out when they don't know all the details and will never support something they don't fully understand.
Sorta like how people as a whole regard furries? See how this works? LMFAO.
Keep it up man, I know you won't steer us wrong. You've personally saved this site from being wiped clean years ago and deserve our trust even though many will always bash you for making decisions like this. Nothings ever easy.
FA definitely has my trust; I've been a near-daily user since 2006 and never had any real reason to leave, because it provided me with a steady and always growing community. Outside (and inside) drama occurs like clockwork, but the site is left running for us. If Neer was the type to give up on us, the site would have been gone or sold years ago. I think a big thanks is in order~
That alone makes him our savior doesn't it? A leader in our community for sure and deserves our respect for just that act alone.
People need to realize, we've been sold since january and we've not been censored, changed or asked to do things any different than before... You'd think something in the back of their heads would click.
That alone makes a point here, I'm waiting for everyone to realize just how ignorant they look by bitching and moaning. >.<
That last point should raise enough concern on it's own! The guy destroyed several major sites and services all on his own, he wrote backdoors into a MC mod to troll and crash servers, he literally destroyed PokeMMO, and he took F-list ransom after doing extreme amounts of damage to their code and information plus stealing a bunch of personal information when he did so. Neer hired that guy and kept it a secret from the community for months before unveiling the new staff member with a cover-up account because he KNEW there would be backlash to doing so, well deserved backlash given that impressive list of destructive achievements.
What do we have now? He sold the site in secret and didn't say anything for months, again, do you remember that he promised more transparency in how the site is run/operated? Yeah, being transparent doesn't mean being shady and secretive, it means he should've said:
"We're currently working on a business deal with IMVU, we want to assure the users that IMVU will not be taking control of the site and that if there are any concerns you may raise them in the following thread here: X
Thank you for your understanding."
That's transparent, understanding how IMVU works is a good step in that direction as well since pornographic material requires a payment before those can be seen which means any adult artist that has their work stolen will need to pay IMVU to even be able to get it removed. Neer didn't know that fact as he stated in a tweet that he didn't think IMVU even does that, it's a key feature on their site that users must pay to view pornographic/adult items. that's a huge kick to artists who don't want to pay a site so they can make sure their work isn't being sold. Not only that but the sheer amount of images taken from FA and posted on IMVU is growing every single day, that's an actual problem and it's affecting a lot of artists with very little being done by Neer or IMVU to curb the problem.
You should be skeptical about this deal, you should be concerned about Neer's utter lack of transparency, you shoudln't blindly place trust in someone with a track record like Neer has at this point.
I don't mean to bash the guy but come on.
There's no pleasing some folks. Given that, do what you think is right and let the $*** fall where it will. Once the air clears, everyone can wash off and go back to their regularly scheduled naughty pics.
I dunno when that'll be (FWA?), but that must have been such a tough decision to make and you deserve it for thinking of the community over yourself. That's respectable.
Unless this were to change the way I do my thing here, I'm not really gonna consider it some sort of cataclysmic event. Though I admit the company who bought FA kinda made me raise an eyebrow. . I forgot IMVU was actually a thing still.
Oh well, let's just see what happens.
My advice to anyone who doesn't support this move is, go elsewhere.
Its not really that big a deal though. I think personally never has probably done what he felt is best for the site on this occasion. The site is in tatters maybe this is required. Who knows, but this is going to be the straw that breaks the camels back for ne'er.
Like I have my concerns but any minor understanding of basic contractual business has already made me chill.
Well lets see maybe they ban the porn and it will be an My Little Pony site then for Browniessss
We shall see how this deal pans out, I'm curious to see how FA will explain an updated terms of use that states IMVU can use content created on FA for their marketing purposes.
I'm waiting for SecondLife scale levels of shitstorm, meanwhile I'm sitting here in my patio chair on the front lawn watching the house burn down. :P
Well, the community went out the window.
He can..and he did in January.
Besides I honestly don't care if they won't let me see a dog cock
Besides I'm sure everyone's just jumping to conclusions and nothing is going to change
Or in better terms. Content removed from the site. Any, really ... maybe that you and I won't be the ones affected. The general principle that a freedom taken away, should register as a bad thing, really, at least when it's something like a picture. Which doesn't harm anybody. See all the arguments made for the Muhammed caricatures, that's related.
The guy sold the site because he was struggling financially, and if you were in his shoes would you rather struggle with keeping the site afloat along with real life expenses, or allow someone else to take the reigns and take a huge load off yourself?
Yes I see why people are upset, though again, I think they're just freaking out that IMVU itself has a strict 'no porn' policy, but FurAffinity is a different site altogether.
I swear, some kid could spread a rumor that Dragoneer takes monthly vacations to Venice and everyone would believe it despite there being zero evidence.
Lol I'm jk. Birdy saw your sarcasm and derped anyway. ^v^
See what happens.
Honestly I never expected even you to sell out to a corporation like this. It's fortunate we still have SoFurry but still. All I see coming out of this is FA transitioning to something similar to what happened to Furnation. What a shame, man. You had something pretty good here.
I'm glad you still run the thing, Neer! C:
Basically, I'm on the fence about this.
Also, thanks for warning me about Amazon, dear LORD
>everyone throws shit at him regardless of what he does
Managing a place like this is tough, but stay strong.
>Nothing changes
You'd think people using a free site wouldn't complain nearly as much, but I suppose there will always be assholes on the internet.... I don't like dealing with assholes, though. Good thing I don't have to.
>Already got blocked by him. XD
Or am I reading between the lines a bit much here?
I admit I'm not thrilled at the fact that this was kept quiet for months, but I know there are legal reasons behind it and whatnot. Even so, I'll give this a chance, I love the site, so I'm not about to jump ship or anything. Just hope IMVU really remains "hands off", and lets FA stay what it's been, content-wise.
So you work for IMVU now, then?
Same. This is the exact reason I left DA.
2. Modifications to this Agreement
[...]
2.2 - We may ask you to review and explicitly agree to a revised version of these terms. In this case, any modifications will be effective at the time of your agreement. If you do not agree, then you are not permitted to use our services and must discontinue using them immediately. In circumstances where you are not asked to explicitly agree, but are instead notified as stated above via site announcement, then the modifications will become effective fourteen (14) days after being announced.
Current right: "4.1 - When you upload content to Fur Affinity via our services, you grant us a non-exclusive, worldwide, royalty-free, sublicensable, transferable right and license to use, host, store, cache, reproduce, publish, display (publicly or otherwise), perform (publicly or otherwise), distribute, transmit, modify, adapt, and create derivative works of, that content. These permissions are purely for the limited purposes of allowing us to provide our services in accordance with their functionality (hosting and display), improve them, and develop new services. These permissions do not transfer the rights of your content or allow us to create any deviations of that content outside the aforementioned purposes."
It's a sticky road because the previous sentence allows them unrestricted use. Kind of a catch 22. BUT... redistribution for advertising, even to the site, does not fall under the terms of the limitations listed, in their own ToS. As such it seems it may actually prevent them from distribution to another site, or even transferring ownership for any uses not listed as core to functionality. I wish i knew more about copyright law and such. Understanding it is kind of like beating yourself upside the head with a brick while trying to take the SAT's, while riding a bicycle, underwater.
Ok no
We need to see this shit in its EXACT writing NOW. I want to know what rights these people have to my artwork. No "sort of", no "basically", give us the exact legalese.
A lot of people won't use Facebook or Instagram because they own the rights to anything you upload, if IMVU have those same rights going forward and somehow for everything from the last 10 years, that's not going to sit well with about 99% of people.
Almost all the gallery have stuff we buy / trade / do, seem fair if costumer and artist have the same dirict
Ok they use a part of one of my commission but still i pay for that and atlast i want a note or some kind or warning they use my stuff... And get a refound / payment for use something i buy / make, like a sort of rent
The rule allows them to do that.
Did he read it before he signed it?
Never sign anything if you don't get something out of it, right...
Sorry, couldn't resist.
I'm still a little puzzled over you seemingly not having discussed the points in detail, but I'm happy to know that the artists retain the rights on their content.
Oh ! MY ! GAWD!
By purchasing, they auto-became first.
The person that told me this may be wrong, but it is worrying if they are not.
We need to know exactly what is going to happen to our work under new ownership.
Sure, it could be said this free advertisement for the artists but hell, we all know that IMVU isn't going going to credit them for their work or livelihood.
Just seems REALLY unfair you know?
When this change becomes effective and will start affecting us?
What exactly are the changes and if someone do not agree with them, what is the procedure for termination that one should follow?
I'd really like if you or someone would clarify this. I rarely do comment, but here I really have to have this clarified.
If I can't be sure what exactly will be licence of the submissions after this aquisition, I will have to for the very first time consider terminating agreement and cease using FA. Therefore, I'd like to kindly request more informaton about this matter.
I am aware of the high volume of questions, that's why I'll wait cca. 10 days, closely watching for any announcement that will clarify the issue.
A disclosure of full text of "Terms of Sale" or some official announcement of when those provisions will affect us and to what extend, will solve the issue for me - for now.
Thank you in advance - to you and anyone else that can clarify this to me.
But I'm still not fully convinced. I'd still want to see some full legal text and official announcement.
If it's really JUST investment, I maybe will be fine with it, but my concern are on licence grounds.
Furries were once bannable on IMVU until they realized that furry avatars and accessories sold like crazy.
Investing in another site that's getting hit monetarily to boost advertisement is a wise decision, because seeing furry anything will drag those who cant run SL to IMVU, in which case, they will make money , on top of the money invested in FA.
It's an oroboros effect.
In my opinion on this...as long as you are still in charge of changes and things to FA...I'm all for IMVU funding us. We have needed the bit of extra help and I can't wait to see the changes you guys have in store!
Though Neer mentioned something about rebroadcasting rights with people's icons and art. Exactly WHAT are they going to use those for? Where are they going to advertise that they'll have the right to use screenshots of the site?
My Friend you and I see the term "Respect" in altogether different lights.
If he's dropping names and the place gets mass-hacked , he can be held responsible.
I bet Donald put them up to it.
Besides, it would be hard to resist the offer to have enough money to dive into, let's be honest, here!
Why won't you tell us how much you sold FurAffinity for? Or even still, how much IMVU are getting per donation cut. Thats if you actually expect people to donate after knowing there is now a million dollar corporation behind the website.
Are we forgetting that IMVU is a massive company and makes around $45,000,000 adjusted profits each year? Or are we going to forget that?
This pretty much means now that the fate of FurAffinity is actually no-longer in your hands, which many people would have wished for anyway. But instead in the hands of a company, a company that wants the profit off of a fandom.
You watch next, they'll now go buy all the rest of the furry art sites.
And this wasn't about profit so much as it was making sure FA has the resources to grow, and not have to keep coming out of my pocket, relying on donation requests... but actually have funding.
What they are doing here is effectively a monopoly in order to get an entire fandom onto their products, and spending their money.
The Improvements won't matter if your user-base is not happy.
Slam dunk. Thank you.
How long till IMVU starts doing what we that work in retail call "Cleaning House"? You might be familiar with this term, but for those that aren't, this is where a larger company buys out a smaller company, with the promise that "Nothing will change". Then a month or 2 down the road, they pretty much lay off everyone that was management in the smaller original company. Then the larger corp changes the rules, discontinues some products, etc.
How long till IMVU does that here? Right now, them saying that "Nothing will change" is simply smoke & mirrors for the unsuspecting.
I've seen it happen too many times around the net, & been part of a couple jobs where this shit's happened in person in places where I've worked. I'm not stupid enough to believe the hype that's put out.
and I dont believe that reasoning of "having a large furry community" when the furry one is the smallest one they have on there
Well i dont hate you just dissapointed that you take forever when some important should the user knowing ...
The fees are what I'm worrying about - IMVU has been known for scraping money out of everything they can. I remember a time where we had to verify our age, buy our name, buy our name AGAIN so someone couldnt overshoot you with premium names, where they stole your username and put it up for sale under your nose. And even though you age verified, you had to spend 20 more bucks on AP, which actually let you see the adult content, which age verifying should have done anyways.
Don't forget they removed the ability for mods to edit and maintain rooms unless you pay MORE money for shared rooms, or marriage.
Oh and also don't forget that they charge you even MORE to create prducts. And by create, I mean steal meshes and slap textures on it that could be from anywhere. And then mindless drones go and accept it to get the 5 creds they need.
Following the last bit - I feel like they'd charge us to put art up if they eventually stormed the castle, if you will.
This is all speaking way into the future, of course. Point I would make is that IMVU will eventually look to integrate FA into its business model, and that may not be the same FA that we all know now.
He has no control over furaffinity what so ever. What they've pretty much done is taken the site and said "Okay, we totally promise not to do these things!".
Pretty much, think Electronic Arts, and Maxis.
IMVU is now the legal representative and owner of Fur Affinity, that is that.
DON'T YOU WORRY.
They just don't allow it in non-18+ rooms.
The stigma of selling out died with Kurt Cobain, kiddies. This is Web 3.0!
People are constantly demanding that FA have code that's better than commercial sites, while still somehow being funded on donations-only and easily-blocked ads.
People shouldn't be surprised that people offered you money just to shut the site down.
It's a testament to your integrity that you are doing what you think is best for FA. You do what you gotta do.
FurAffinity is the biggest and the oldest for a lotta reasons, and the biggest and oldest reason is you.
Stay awesome, Dragoneer.
You already have a Twitter account.
"You agree that this license includes the right for Twitter to provide, promote, and improve the Services and to make Content submitted to or through the Services available to other companies, organizations or individuals who partner with Twitter for the syndication, broadcast, distribution or publication of such Content on other media and services, subject to our terms and conditions for such Content use.
"Such additional uses by Twitter, or other companies, organizations or individuals who partner with Twitter, may be made with no compensation paid to you with respect to the Content that you submit, post, transmit or otherwise make available through the Services.
"We may modify or adapt your Content in order to transmit, display or distribute it over computer networks and in various media and/or make changes to your Content as are necessary to conform and adapt that Content to any requirements or limitations of any networks, devices, services or media."
(Source: https://twitter.com/tos?lang=en )
You also have a Tumblr account.
"You also agree that this license includes the right for Tumblr to make all publicly-posted Content available to third parties selected by Tumblr, so that those third parties can syndicate and/or analyze such Content on other media and services."
(Source: https://www.tumblr.com/policy/en/terms-of-service )
The FurAffinity terms of service currently do not include any clauses like that. ( http://help.furaffinity.net/article.....rvice-TOS.html ) The terms are very clear that there isn't any syndicating, altering, or re-purposing of our images to third party sites.
Dragoneer is telling us these terms won't be changing. If those terms do change, and you don't like those terms, then you should remove your content from FA.
At present, you appear to have no issue with Tumblr or Twitter re-purposing your images. (Though to be fair, you might be posting different images to FA than you do to Tumblr or to Twitter.)
I can't tell you what's going to happen. I only know what's already happening right now.
I consented to the FA ToS too but I feel like there is some bait-and-switch going on here.
It is partly about image rights yes, but it is also much more complex than that, in what up to now have been a series of rather shady actions.
It's no use, really, discussing it though. Best to save my energy because I've already basically made drafts of decisions based on probably how the next month plays out.
In summary, I know this was not an easy decision to make and I hope only the best comes from it :03
what will happen to FA if IMVU goes under
and can IMVU ever say they want the AUP to be changed, for instance, banning certain things?
imvu.com/catalog/web_info.php?topic=mature_content_policy
As much as I love general furry art, I like my furry smut too :P
- "Post content involving sexualized "age play" (regressive role-play in which one or more characters is a minor) in which any participant, character or role is or may be perceived as being anything other than a consenting adult."
- "Use explicit/obscene language or solicit/post sexually explicit images (actual or simulated) or to participate in racially, ethnically, or otherwise offensive language."
- "Discuss or incite illegal activity"
On the last one I can understand no inciting illegal activities but not being able to discuss them? Seriously?
If IMVU forces FA users to integrate with IMVU (See YouTube & Google+ ), and/or a pay tier system, then I'll finally be forced to jump ship.
If it's nothing but a merger, whatever.
(Edit: or if the TOS disallows furry smut - that'll be a huge game changer for a lot of furs)
Btw Hi adoraboe fox! *huggles*
So, IMVU now owns our copywritten content?
Good game, good game.
That'd mean that 10% of youtube videos wouldn't be owned by google.
So for example, if IMVU were to team up with WAL*MART for whatever reason, WAL*MART can then use artwork (or parts thereof) uploaded to this website in their advertisement campaign, and they don't have to pay you a dime for that privilege.
and "These permissions are purely for the limited purposes of allowing us to provide our services in accordance with their functionality (hosting and display), improve them, and develop new services."
So no, they can't do that YET. But they can change the ToS, removing this limitation.
> "These permissions are purely for the limited purposes of allowing us to provide our services in accordance with their functionality (hosting and display), improve them, and develop new services."
That's just a lawyer version of a soothing ointment, I'm afraid.
The "do not transfer the rights" portion is just restarting the obvious in a motherly way to calm people, because in reality they couldn't take away your copyright/ownership even if they tried.
The "outside aforementioned purposes" part refers to: "to use, host, store, cache, reproduce, publish, display (publicly or otherwise), perform (publicly or otherwise), distribute, transmit, modify, adapt, and create derivative works of, that content" which in itself essentially means they can do whatever they want, which in the end makes that entire sentence null and void.
The second portion is also in itself null and void because it's an extremely "loose noose" that basically says "These permissions is there to allow us to do anything related to running this site", which includes advertisements, partnering up with 3rd party companies and creating new services (it's even directly mentioned). Among other things.
So like said, those two sentences serve no purposes other than lulling people into a false sense of security because they think they read something but in reality all they read are twisted words meaning nothing legally speaking.
The only thing guaranteed is that if you move somewhere else, they cannot use your new artwork (post-move) for anything, so that's something.
How involved will you be as this continues on? Is IMVU replacing you, or are you still going to hold your same position, but with a new boss, as it were?
Either way, I have been on this ride for a long time and I see no reason to get off now.
I am sorry you have to deal with so many negative voices and doomsayers. Its all rather silly to make a judgement right now, but I am totally positive. c:
I kept seeing their table and going "Why are they here? They're not even really furry..."
You bastards are easy to milk for cash. Look at how much fur suiters and artists make.
Get your own fursuits for just $10!
($10 doesn't even pay for a yard of fur to make a suit, hahaha)
**wearable for 1 months after purchase
What will they add? Will it be more ads? Will it be paid content? There needs to be some sort of change to FA that will be in IMVU's best interest to make them money, and FA as it stands is certainly not making profit. It's always seemed to be a labor of love rather than a money-maker.
But what they'll do is probably add more furry items into IMVU, and place instead advertisements for IMVU onto the site. They'll pretty much do what Google+ did, and try and force you onto their system. AFter all thats the only way they can make money since they are not google, and don't supply advertisements.
The same will be applied to IMVU, instead in the form of virtual items and what the heck IMVU even does.
It's fine if the virtual aspect is optional, but if it becomes a requirement then that's going to hamper site use for artists.
And when they stop making money from this project, then the support will run out.
Hopefully, it won't be another SheezyArt.
I feel old now for remembering that site.
Unlike FA or DA for that matter though, they didn't allow adult material. What eventually brought the site down was the corrupt and utterly piss poor administration which created a very toxic community. It was basically what everyone claimed FA to be as far as how corrupt the staff are, except the exaggerations had some truth to them.
I could write you a whole book about it really, but not here. Let's just say it was bad enough that I decided to bully Dragoneer instead.
And its one thing what they say, its another what they will do.
This is literally one of the most dumb, slimy, borderline-retarded things I have ever seen any owner of any website do. You know as well as everyone else here that with a company like IMVU at the helm, FA will go down in a blaze of fucked up glory. It was already on the verge of collapse to begin with, but this just sealed the deal. You aren't stupid, you know how the internet works, and you know IMVU's business model; fuck the users, how can we make more money? That is how that kind of company works. They thrive on gullible people paying lots of money for shitty content and service. Once they have their money, they don't care. It might not happen immediately, but FA will become just another vehicle for them to make money from. They will start small, making dumb changes here and there, and once people roll over and accept it they will make more, and then some more, and it's all downhill from there. You -know- this. That. Is. How. Companies. Like. IMVU. Fucking. Work. They want ownership so they can make it theirs. Do you honestly think a company as into profit as them is okay just paying for a site and sitting back like "Okay, we were good people and helped fund this dying website! Now let's leave them alone to do their own thing!" Of course not. They have their own interests in mind, and since they own FA now, they can put those interests into effect.
There is a shitload more I could say about why this is a bad, bad, terrible, fucking incomprehensibly irresponsible decision, but I'm sure it's already been said. IMVU having distribution rights to our uploads, their hatred of porn, their shitty service in general, etc. I understand your need to sell the website, and that is fine. If you can't do it anymore, then sell it, but for the love of all things holy why in the fuck would IMVU be the people you sell it to? You might as well have sold it to fucking Zynga or Club Penguin or something. It makes absolutely no fucking sense.
That's what I keep saying but people call me paranoid.
You don't spend money on a website and then do nothing with it. Come on!
OF COURSE they're going to try and monetize it in some way . Otherwise they'd be the stupidest people ever!
https://forums.furaffinity.net/thre.....=1#post5109610
http://en.wikifur.com/wiki/Trapa
Yeah, this guy seems way shadier and less trustworthy than IMVU, right? Who wants a credentialed person from within the fandom with a long established history of heading up numerous large projects requiring the various IT and general organizational/leadership skills running a site like this (correctly) would require? Not when you could have a random non-furry for-profit company with little to no relation to this fandom/community at all.
I'm not going to jump to conclusions out of the blue over the decision to sell FA (or a portion of FA, or partnering with a company, or whatever constitutes the deal that is going on) before I have any more information. However, given the lack of solid information other than "We made a deal with IMVU" does make for a lot of skepticism and potential problems that others are going to make a fuss about.
Here's the main things I'd like to know:
Does/will IMVU have say on what content is allowed on FA?
Will IMVU be changing anything about the FA we know? If so, what?
Will giving information to FA subsequently give it to IMVU and allow them to sell/give our information to whomever they wish?
How will this deal change the experience for users? What are the most noticeable differences we will see? What are the biggest differences that we most likely will not see?
How does this affect artists, advertisers, and other people who sell products on FA? Will they be required to go through a more stressful process? Will they be required to give a portion of their sales to IMVU?
I don't know how able you are to answer these questions. If you are, then great. If not, then at least keep them in mind for when you are able to give that information.
What does this mean in terms of art ownership? By uploading to FA, does this mean that IMVU now owns the rights to the content we put up on the website, rather than the copyright being to us? They could use it for whatever purposes they wish without our permission,, and there's legally nothing we could do about it? Or how does that pan out ultimately?
Where there's smoke there's fire.
-A retail employee of a certain union-free retail chain.
Please refer to this if you're one of the ignorant masses who think because customer service is easy that every shift is easy.
if we don't consent are we just plane fucked? (excuse my language)
when can we expect full detailed TOS for FA
Appreciate it, it may have been a tough choice.
I am a former user of IMVU, and did not care for their business practices at all.
I really do not like the idea of these very anti-adult, highly-opinionated people running this site.
I'm very paranoid about this buy too.
It's not the right crowd buying FA out - Though I met a few furries in the IMVU staff.
Their actual business ethics are terrible. And their crazy sense of some higher morals causes me some distress, especially with how much they scam.
Anyway, hopefully this improves the site. A site this size can only go so far on donations alone.
Hey Dragoneer.
I do Trust you to do what is best for this endeavor of our social media site which, BTW is the ONLY social media site that I actually spend any significant time maintaining.
I do not have a twitter or facebook account or any other such thing. And any other furry or art account I use is merely an access presence that I do not develop.
As you may be aware; many years had passed since FN fell apart before I even bothered to create a new furry page here in 2006, which now has a substantial amount of very useful educational information along with lots of other very cool stuff including gallery submissions. So much so and to the point I now worry a great deal about losing what I have created here and I desire an easy way to back-up all my written materials here. (FN had FTP access and I could just copy and save.)
But no matter what or how this excellent site (you Originally Created and Issued) may evolve into; I do Trust you to do what is best for all of us concerned and if there is ANY thing I can do to help; please just let me know.
And one improvement I would really like to see here- A product and customer service rating system that cannot simply be "ignored" or "blocked" merely because a user decides to have a problem with another user or actually wants to hide from opinions or truth regarding his performance as he uses this site for his commerce including his products and customer services.
This is a common feature with modern web sites and usually incorporates both comments and a star rating system per a TOS.
I do not know who or what IMVU is but I do suggest we remain in full CONTROL of our own affairs and if we all have to pay a monthly fee to do this, then so be it and I will not decide to have a problem with this. Because I believe this community has the power to do this including financial power to support itself to the benefit of all including you. And not some other foreign entity of unknown or unpredictable future motives that is NOT controlled by us furs.
Kindest regards;
}:>
And for those wondering; who and what is Scorch?
A short bio-
www.furaffinity.net/journal/6436082/
Alkora Did in 2005. Your high and mighty 'digimon-overlard' (now former) simply bought it from him in 2007.
Ok and thank you for the update with the revealing light of this information to chase away the darkness of my own ignorance.
I was unaware the current version of FA is a re-creation evolved from an earlier original issued by somebody else in the past known as Alkora who most likely started with some pre-existing code to build upon and re-create that code into the initial 'seedling' that was the birth of FA as we now know it.
So thank you so very much to Alkora for planting that seed and also to ALL others, including Dragoneer who is the one I recognize who has helped me many times and who has also helped to nurture that seedling into what we experience today and what is still a growing and evolving creation as every moment passes into the past.
No worries. All is good.
Thank you again and Kindest regards;
}:>
Personally, I don't know anything about IMVU. I just hope you know what you're doing.
I dunno why people insist on believing the worst in people. Donations used to by a house? Really? Someone who does that wouldn't care about the site and would have sold it to the ones wanting to shut it down. One of these days you're gonna have to sit down and really make a heartfelt journal about you and this site to help people understand your side of the story. you might not be the best at all this, and you might have to do things to help yourself sometimes, but you're trying really hard it seems, and one can't expect you to be miserable for the sake of everyone else. I'd collapse if i had to do 80 hr work weeks...
On a different note, IMVU's furry avatars are kinda...creepy. ^^;
I'm sad you sold it. It's a piece of shit site, but it was a close-knitted piece of shit site.
You didn't even get in writing what would happen to our art/paid for art, and that's really really sad. You saw the money, and you ran with it.
I'm disappointed, but hopeful I guess. I dunno. All it can do is go horizontally or down from here.
10 years and sold out to a piece of shit, second-rate 3D site.
Damn, man.
I cannot say I'm not slightly concerned -- this is a big change, and people worry about those -- but I'm not going to panic or believe the worst, either. Let's hope that this was the right decision and will lead to FA growing and improving.
After all, you guys had two months to complain or remove your stuff! There was a very prominent announcement of these changes several months ago, posted down in the cellar, inside the underused lavatory whose door bore a sign declaring "beware the leopard".
I know you're getting a shitstorm. I know you've been through a ton of shit from people both now and in the past over a lot of things. But here's what I have to say about it.
I know how you feel because I've gone through similar things. Its difficult running a community and eventually a lot of blame comes back at you if the wrong people get pissed and it snowballs. I also know that these people have very little understanding of the issues you face, both with FA itself and trying to run FA at the same time as trying to run your Real Life, with work and all.
I also realize that running a site like this costs a ton of money. People with their "greed" accusations don't realize the cost involved and seem to think that all you've done is taking.
All that said, I've pretty much ignored all the "controversies" of the past for the above reasons. Its just people being butthurt over things and then throwing shoes in the gears when they don't get their way, in my opinion. This one, however, actually does give me cause for concern.
While I understand why you did what you did from your perspective. I can see two directions this can go in.
First, it can go as you said and they can take a rather hands-off approach to the site, just letting you run things and providing you with resources. In return, they just get to enrich their own community.
Secondly, they can begin to make major changes to the feel and done of the community and the content and expression acceptable on this site. They could do this to keep things in line with their image or to push profitability for the site to justify their investment. Either way, the site could change visibly into something it didn't used to be.
I'm willing to give this move a chance and stick around for a while in hopes that it goes in the first direction. If, however, it begins to go in the second direction, I may be forced to no longer use this site. I joined FA because I liked that it was a place where a fur could be a fur without the outside world imposing its conditions and conventions on us. I sincerely hope it stays that way, and if it does, I certainly won't have any problem.
-WH
though my biggest concern now is that drastic changes happen to the site they have control of. i for one hope that having to pay doesnt become a thing ^^; i love it here, i have made very good friends because of FA i rather not have to leave because i cant afford it, and im sure im not the only one.
BUT im sure you know what your doing. i have heard no wrong with the company espeshaly during my time on IMVU. so long as they dont start eyeing our wallets im happy with this X3
Hmm. Am I correct when I infer from this that IMVU is now paying you a large enough salary to live on, and make "running and improving FA" your day job? Possibly even putting enough money in to make "improving FA" the day job of a few other people as well?
Because if so, that's pretty damn good!
Especially if they know that FA is a haven for some of the weirdest damn porn in the world and are totally cool with it continuing to be that.
This is because of IMVU's own ToS and stand on sexual content....
IMVU changed their AP from Adult Pass to access Pass, claiming no sex on the site (nudity okay, but no erect penises, cum splats, etc..)
Simply because they claim they cannot sell or market if they allow it (even though AP is only offered to users 18+).
So how is FA okay with everything they have here that is in a direct violation to that?
but i'm preemptively reenabling adblock
Not about the sell of FA, but what was happening in your life. Hope things get better for you. I know we've not been on the best of terms, but I genuinely hope you can at least get some vacation time.
You are a lair or this person is a liar, but Summercat even said that they heard about the offer! So either you (with a history of lying and broken promises) are full of shit, or this person and summercat are full of shit. Because then explain this offer on the forums that you ignored.
https://forums.furaffinity.net/thre.....=1#post5109610
If FA was sold two months ago, then that would mean that they have had "control" for two months, right? If that is the case, I certainly haven't seen any changes to this site that would have led me to believe anything was wrong or different, let alone an ownership swap. Thus far, there is nothing that indicates in any way that the website will be changed/ruined or degraded from what it is now and I think people are getting a little scared by what they don't know, which is understandable. I think I'm willing to give the IMVU folks a shot at this website; they've been around for a very long time and I feel like their ability to keep growing over the many years could indicate they have the skills to keep things running smooth and even improve FA's performance.
"All hail are new corporate overload!"
when a company buys another, the bought company's way to do things is changed, period, no questions asked. so, get ready for things like:
NO HUMAN ADULT ART, OF ANY KIND OR LEVEL.
NO RULE 34.
NO USE OF COPYRIGHTED CHARACTERS (SAME AS ABOVE, BUT INCLUDING NOT ADULT ORIENTED PICS)
this is the same case as you tube, only on fur affinity, if they saw it was the only way to keep the site alive, ok, but, this sell was made in January, and we, the community, find out about it in march. why?
if you don't own the character, you can't use it. now, watch any gallery here, and count how many rule 34, clean fan art and fanfics are there? see? it will affect a lot of people.
and now that another company owns f.a. and they want to see it produce income....that might happen.
I mean its in the "top 5000 pages of the world" or not? it has to be a 1 or a 2 followed by many zeroes :P.
IMVU wouldn't have bought FA if they didn't see a potential for profit... I can't really picture it being for the purpose of shady practices of stealing people's artwork for their own uses because, honestly, what other client group is going to be particularly interested in furry based advertising? In the long run, wouldn't it be cheaper to drop a few hundred dollars and just commission the artist?
I do wonder where the profit for IMVU is...
Perhaps, as someone commented, the userbase is sufficient that they smell money in advertising revenue and promoting their other services to FA users. I hope that's the case.
As for changes in terms of service? Well, I'll be re-reading them and seeing if I want to stick around or if there's some reason to actually leave. Honestly, IMVU would be foolish to change anything so sweeping as to decimate the userbase they just bought, presumably to advertise at.
It's concerning that this was anounced so late after the fact... I can think up reasons why this might be. I can't think many pleasant reasons to not anounce the day after the sale was completed.
All said and done though. If what has been said can be taken at face value, perhaps this will be a good thing for FA. Perhaps this will be a good thing for IMVU too... That'd be ideal.
If not? Well, I guess there have been other things that didn't go as planned and, well, there's still a user base here.
Genuinely, I hope this turns out to be a good thing. Maybe I'm being naive.
Good luck in the new job, Dragoneer. Here's hoping that, at worst, this is benign as you insist and at best, you're going to have a lot of folks grudgingly admitting that you came through.
Is there any sort of contingency plan for reacquiring FurAffinity? Like, in the event that they do not see the desired effects from our community towards theirs, is there anything keeping them from meddling, renovating, reselling, or otherwise abandoning the website that they now own?
Legitimate question, no hate or anything involved, just concern as someone who can see a very worst-case scenario about these things... AKA: What if FA starts ruining IMVU?
What he ORIGINALLY said was:
"IMVU reserves the right to redistribute content that has been uploaded to FurAffinity as agreed upon in page 9 of the terms of sale"
"that just ran through my head D:"
Bolly took it out of context and posted the first part of the quote without telling people it was just a joke. Then Neer responded and actually confirmed that either 1 - that IS a part of the agreement contract or 2 - He knows nothing about the contract he signed and was trying to smooth talk it over with 'Oh that part's no big deal' while not actually knowing it's not even part of the contract, thus having NO IDEA how big of a deal it was or not.
Naturally, furries flipped their collective shit. Myself included. >.>;
I've been loyal to this site for a long time, mainly due to the community and in spite of the poor management, but even from a distance this was a poor decision for users and it will be a monumental task convincing them that this wasn't just another way for management to wash their hands of the site while still collecting profits from it.
Personally, I've been using those two more often than this site after getting tired with the BS here.
IB is repelling due to it's focus on cub porn, and SF has some awkwardness in it's website design, but I am looking into distributing my work onto these other sites as a way to not have all my eggs in one nest.
Not good at public speaking are you Neer? But you sure pull the strings and know how to push everyone's buttons don't you?
Well there are a lot of questions so you better prepare a better speech other than "woopsy."
IMVU, a company that admittedly plays fast and loose with user data and will sell and/or give it to anyone they please, has bought Furaffinity.
IMVU restricts creativity on their site, and charges people for every aspect of use, from keeping your registered name so nobody else can use it, to uploading new creative content and more.
IMVU is seen as a low-quality Second Life rip-off by most of the people who actually know what it is.
IMVU advertises constantly on facebook in order to gain a larger user base, of mostly females and teens.
Many people in the furry community have never heard of IMVU, which brings me to believe that their advertising is not effective.
There was a fundraiser for Furaffinity during the time that the offer was being made to purchase FA by IMVU.
Many offers were made to purchase FA during this time, one of which included maintaining the power structure and control of FA, and forming a cohesive and organized board of directors for the site. All other offers were declined.
FA attempted to combine/partner with another site previously, and that process fell apart quickly due to incompatibilities between the sites and management styles.
Furaffinity was sold to IMVU months before the user base was informed.
The sale of Furaffinity changed the TOS for Furaffinity in specific but vital ways.
Changing the TOS of Furaffinity without notifying the users of Furaffinity immediately upon said change is a violation of Furaffinity's TOS and user agreement.
______________________
With this all in mind, what it looks like to me is that IMVU is scrambling to try to grow it's user base and make more money off of unsuspecting people who are willing to pay to play a lesser version of Second Life (a free game). Based on the facts and their policies and recent advertising behavior, IMVU is struggling as a company and is making a mad grasp at a different advertising method in order to keep their company afloat.
All in all, I do not like it, and it seems very, very shady.
The amount of furs asking ab out IMVU on Twitter (inc myself) after the reveal agree's with the point that no one knows who they bloody are
Yay monitization
I been knocking around FA for many bleedin years. i tend to duck below the parpet and sit there like an idiot when drama kicks off, but unless i see some actualy definitions as to what the art rights are and such, i shall be jumping shit. And the sad thing is, its the users like me, the ones that knock around despite what goes on that have helped keep FA around.
Also, seems anything that includes sharing power is a big no no.
Dragoneer at this point is pretty much jsut the public face of FA , but he has no power anymore.
I am... not trying to hate on the deal itself, but I cannot turn a blind eye to the idea that people who're NOT furries now have the final say in what goes on here. And we have a lot of porn, and it's here to stay, because most of us love it, or at least don't have a problem with it whatsoever.
This sellout is really, really making me sick.
This is not going to end well. I don't see how this can continue on in a good way. I dare say it's only a matter of a few years until we see the first superimposed rules.
It's no wonder that IMVU is struggling as a company because Second Life does same things a way better and has therefore practically superceded IMVU and it's only a matter of time when it does to IMVU what Facebook did to Myspace
Secondly , IMVU is one of the most unethical website I have ever set foot on . They use adware on their site and it is run on a pay to play model ( expect porn viewing to be 15 bucks /mth ).
Also , IMVU is targeted to a non furry teen demographic ( 13-17 ). Why not sell it to an individual that knows the community inside and out and have money in his or her pocket AND to actually give a shit about the fandom ?
Also , as far as partnering websites with fur affinity , how are they affected by this change ?
So many questions that are not answered here . Now I will be sticking around , but I may but my head into weasyl again just to jump ship.
Also, considering the alternative Dragoneers listed, it could be much worse. Like Facebook. Or some religious-crazies wanting to buy it to close the website.
That's still true.
Although anything like forced subscription here is not going to work, I'm sure a lots of people would be willing to donate or even pay a yearly subscription with a little incentive that adds to the site's existing feature to help keep it going...somethings like what Transfurs.com or DevientArt do?
So are you being paid full time by IMVU now?
1) Social sites like this are not purchased because entity 'X' wants a hobby. Money is what's driving it.
2) You are now a commodity. By one means or another, the users of the site will be monetized not only for it's upkeep, but especially to turn a profit. This will be through one of the following: advertising to you, sales to you, sale of data about you which will be sold to 3rd parties for advertising/aggregation/demographics to better target you as a consumer or some other means.
3) 'Free' sites are almost never free. You do not pay for usage directly, instead, money is made as a result of your usage. You drive traffic to the site (with your art, for example) that generates ad revenue, or generates valuable data in some way from you or other users which in turn makes money for the site. Unless it is a hobbyist site, a free site is making money somewhere from you, and unless you are selling something yourself, as you would on ebay or etsy or by selling artwork, you receive no monetary compensation in return for the revenue you generate for the site.
4) Site hacks and data theft are not uncommon and often leak sensitive and potentially embarrassing details about site users.
5) When money is involved, there is a tendency for policies to change to broaden the audience. By this I mean barring certain content deemed too controversial as it drives away a certain demographic, thus reducing revenue. I'm not saying any particular scene/kink/fetish/whatever-- anything is fair game really. Whatever gets complained about the most I would imagine. Sudden and frequent TOS changes may occur and often times a TOS is not really read until someone gets a whiff of something fishy. Like right now for instance.
That's how I look at it. How it plays out remains to be seen. Personally I don't care to be monetized, which is why I won't touch social media sites like Facebook, LinkedIn, Myspace or use twitter or anything along those lines. If the way those sites, and perhaps the future FA operate is not a problem for you as outlined above, then carry on.
For me however, only the private ownership of the site in the past really served as somewhat of a reassurance that any of the shenanigans above were not happening. Now, though I never really posted much, as I don't really consider myself an artist, from here on out, pending some change in my views I will refrain from posting content here as the change in management definitely gives me paws.
There's a good chance that IMVU could ban porn , introduce paid content and generally fuck up the structure of FA to fit THEIR needs instead of those of the long-time users.
Right?
They could also re-sell it yet again, placing it at the mercy of some other buyer(s).
The thing I most hope they don't do is start trying to extract fees from the artists for every commission they complete, thus driving them away. I think artists work hard enough without having money siphoned off of them. That's the danger here-- the site now must make money somehow or face changes most furs may not like, or ultimately be shut down or eventually abandoned by its user base. We can only wait and see what happens now.
I hate to ask, but is there a way to delete the data from an FA account? If so, is there any way, other than copying and pasting, to make a personal backup of old journal posts, etc.?
I can understand the reasoning behind you wanting to sell it - I'm not upset or bitter. It's just that the things I posted here were with the understanding this was a privately-owned site for the community. There's a reason I don't post to outfits like IMVU.
Honestly I bet if new servers and millions of dollars to keep those servers running with DDOS protection magically rained from the sky, and FA never went down again, people would STILL find some reason to complain and come up with new rumors and conspiracies.
Honestly Dragoneer, something doesn't feel right. I sincerely believe that you feathered your own nest in this deal for cash minus responsibility.
Normally I don't say much, but when Ghostery started picking up new trackers on FA when the other tracker disappeared, I sent you a note that was promptly dismissed with a "you'll see why." And the fact that Alkora is leaving says volumes, too.
Good luck. I'm sticking around for a little while longer. But that's it.
And I'm not sure what you meant by "other tracker". The analytics only pull anonymous data, and aren't invasive whatsoever.
However.
Rushing to sign things before you even get all the clarifications? Irresponsible.
Signing away users' content and not informing them for two months? Unacceptable.
I've made many excuses for you in the past, Dragoneer, because I have always believed that your heart is in the right place even if you make questionable decisions. I prefer not to assume malice, but you have been guilty many times of poor decision-making or poor communication, and sometimes both. I'm left to wonder how you can keep making these shady, disrespectful, downright nonsensical decisions without ever waking up to yourself.
You either don't care or you don't get it. I'm disappointed.
The content can be posted to FA, and nothing else. IMVU doesn't have rights to do free reign with whatever they want. When you upload to FA to you give FA -- this site -- reign to host the art, nobody else.
My main point is that you have a duty to tell people about these things. Regardless of the specifics of the agreement the site has been in the hands of this company for two months, and with it the data of its users. Telling people about this when it happens, or preferably before, is the least you could do. People have the right to make decisions about their own data.
It was like the recent furor with the person you hired, whose name I forget, with the history of making private data public. Sure, you trusted him, but many others didn't. He had access to the site and people's data long before his identity came to light, and it took the digging of users to reveal it at all.
I will always respect the effort you have put into keeping this site alive out of your own time and your own pocket. I have never complained about the site's functionality or your personal decisions regarding its direction. But what I cannot respect, or support, is your repeated tendency to play fast and loose with people's data (and now, possibly, content rights) while keeping them in the dark about it.
I don't know what IMVU's ownership holds in store for the site. No-one really does, and as it can't be undone I definitely advocate waiting to see what will happen.
It just bothers me to see yet another example of people's information and/or content being put at risk without their say-so or even knowledge. Again, I don't assume malice but I can't see it as anything other than callous disrespect for the users, and that's one thing I can't get over.
I apologise for joining the dogpile. Despite everything I still believe you have good intentions and I hope that you will make the most of your position.
How much love for FA do they have, really? This is a question I cannot ask *them*, because the answers I'd get would very likely not reflect reality.
What if, after a while, that company wants to impose some new arbitrary rules? We already had that bullshit ban on cub art. It could get worse. No vore, no violence, no rape,...
First question: Do you - Dragoneer - have final say on anything anymore?
Because if that's not the case then there are no more certainties here - the 'business as usual' sign does not apply. At the whims of this new owner, anything and everything is open to re-evaluation and change - at any time.
Second question: Did you make IMVU fully aware of the full extent of what they were buying? Did you just say something superficial like: "Oh yeah there is adult content on the site." or did you make them fully aware of the extremity of some of the content here? Did you ask whether or not any of that gave them cause for concern?
Third question: Do you/can you offer any assurances that adult content will not suddenly become a 'problem' for IMVU - henceforth becoming a 'problem' for many of the users here?
This is probably the biggest worry and uncertainty for the majority of users here - there are other places people can go to share adult material but FA is (for the moment) the most convenient and popular.
That last part can change though - very quickly. If adult art suddenly becomes a problem for IMVU then FA's main strength over sites like dA disappears completely. That will most definitely lead to a mass migration to other sites such as Weasyl - which currently lack the strength of users this site has. I will say that you have been doing a lot to create the right conditions for mass migration lately though.
I hope that if you have the time you answer my questions truthfully - and I hope things work out for the site and users here.
I really think the next 3-10 months are pivitol on FA. We will see.
my stuff down this weekend, good job on that transparency Neer.
How long till IMVU starts doing what we that work in retail call "Cleaning House"? You might be familiar with this term, but for those that aren't, this is where a larger company buys out a smaller company, with the promise that "Nothing will change". Then a month or 2 down the road, they pretty much lay off everyone that was management in the smaller original company. Then the larger corp changes the rules, discontinues some products, etc.
How long till IMVU does that here? Right now, them saying that "Nothing will change" is simply smoke & mirrors for the unsuspecting.
I've seen it happen too many times around the net, & been part of a couple jobs where this shit's happened in person in places where I've worked. I'm not stupid enough to believe the hype that's put out.
FA either becomes a geo-cities style website, plastered with spam-laden ads, pay-to-post/view/have anything content, plus the added feature that Dragoneer will have pretty much zero say because he no longer 'owns' FA. He "works" for the new company...................until they step in to "clean their image" & do exactly what I asked about, & goodbye old crew, hello yuppie imvu crew with the same "vanity Fair" style attitude that it originally had back in 2004 when it started up. I joined IMVU back in 2004 when they started up. They were alot like the "Christain Science" folks. No furry anything. No artwork that was PG or higher. Humans only,
The writing's already on the wall. You never sell out to anyone who background past is shady at best. The folks here in Vermont got a pretty good taste of it when they let a company with a horrendous track record called Fairpoint, buy out all of the Verizon-based internet services that we once had. Fairpoint tanked & chapter 11'd in canada, so they came down to little VT to present a shiney 'new' package, promising hopes & dreams. 3 months after they got here, bought in, & then "cleaned house". just recently workers ran a months long strike against Fairpoint, & the state's goverment had to step in & tell them to stop that because 911 lines were down. There's lawsuits going on still about all that.
So when, because its not really a matter of "if" now, when they clean house, no one has a say anymore in what happens to what was once FA.
That why I am concerned.
Talk about transparency.
This is as shady a move as it gets and you lost all credibility to me and a LOT of other people as well. If the majority of artists I watch were active on other sites, I would have jumped ship ages ago. Years of false, empty promises, damage control, controversy upon controversy, and now this.
You'd make an excellent politician. You excel at lying.
I honestly don't know whether to applaud you for such a one-sided deal, or for what will eventually happen later when IMVU realizes they overestimated their investment.
If the deal works out, that's cool. FA REALLY needs some improvements and new features, like a tag blacklist, a VITAL thing for a site that allows NSFW art especially. And of course other things as well, like folders and perhaps basic things we're all used to that aren't exactly designed int he best way possible. Hoping for the best.
Some people just outright hate something enough to throw money at it just to kill it.
Why would anyone hate this website with such a passion? if it's for some of it's content one can just enforce new rues and regulations, like what happened in the past when FA decided not to tolerate pedophilia anymore.
But I'm expecting advertisement tickers, like 9 ad spots, and pop-ups.
You need to remember that both parties are crashing and that this is a massive risk.
Most of FA seems to not even know about IMVU, Im a six-year user.
These eyes have SEEN SOME NONSENSE. And I don't expect any less than that from them, now.
Anything you'd like to say about this, 'Neer?
Or are you going to stay silent about selling 50% of someone else's share to a different company without telling them?
https://forums.furaffinity.net/thre.....=1#post5109610
http://en.wikifur.com/wiki/Trapa
Please address the rather significant lie in this statement. Also, while the specific details of the sale are of course not going to be public record, surely there's nothing stopping you from enlightening us on why this offer was less desirable than IMVU's?
Nobody needs to know what IMVU's offer was. But there's no way an NDA with them stops you from explaining what you found lacking in Trapa's offer.
Seems really fishy to just 'trust' their word on leaving FA to FA.