FA+
Shop
The Problem with the Term Cuntboy
10 years ago
Note: I no longer read or respond to comments on this journal. I do not answer notes about this either.
Please also be aware this journal will not be updated to fix errors, broken links, or any misspeaking on my part. Keep in mind this is several years old at the time of this note's writing, and much of it is subsequently outdated. Thank you.
To begin with: I will assume you have already heard the conversation on why cuntboy may be an objectionable term. It reduces a body to its genitals, it others these male-identifying bodies by not allowing them to just be “boys.” It is a slur against transmasculine people, and though it has been reclaimed by a few it is by and large used by a cis audience for a cis audience. I’ve talked about this before, and been in conversations about it even more often. I’m commonly presented with the same arguments as to why cuntboy is an okay term for everyone to use, so I’ll be addressing most of those here.
I’ll be saying this a few times, but here it is up front: I am not talking to transmasc people who choose to reclaim the word. I am not talking to transmasc people who choose to reclaim the word. AGAIN: I am not talking to transmasc people who choose to reclaim the word.
I am talking to the cis majority who are oddly in love with this word.
Trans men and cuntboys are different things, cuntboys are a fantasy!
The common reasoning here is something along the lines of "Cuntboys have nothing to do with trans people, they're a fantasy gender, a man born with a vagina!" The problem there being "man born with a vagina" is literally what a trans man is. You just described a trans man (if you disagree, please tell me what your definition of a trans man is; keep in mind "a man in a female body" or “a man who was born a woman” is cissexist and inappropriately gendering bodies, and not an answer I will accept).
I am a transmasculine person, so by most standards I am a "man born with a vagina." My gender is not a fantasy, my body is not a fantasy, my experiences are not a fantasy, the pain I have gone through because of my body and how it is treated is not a fantasy. Hand-waving and going "well THIS is fantasy" is ignoring a very obvious equation and reeks of "it is this way because it is convenient for me." Speaking of:
Cuntboys don't have anything to do with transition or transgender issues!
So you want the bodies of trans people without having to deal with the "icky" bits? So you want to be able to fuck us, as long as we don't whine about having astronomical suicide and homeless rates while you do so? You want to be able to stare at and talk about our genitals, without having to hear about the latest murder?
You don't want to have to deal with the fight for medical treatment and transition, you don't want to have the conversation about what transition can mean to different people. You don't want to talk about how transition is denied us when we need it, you don't want to talk about how some of us have gotten to a point where we may not match "cis standards" with our bodies but are still comfortable in our gender. You want our bodies, but not us.
That's wrong! Some trans people identify as cuntboys!
Good on them, but as someone who is relatively surrounded by trans people, both on and offline, I've only met a handful. Not to say they don’t exist, but that constantly citing them as the reason cuntboy as a whole is okay is a bit misleading. That is a conversation to have, but not the one I am having right now. That term is theirs to reclaim, and I am talking to folks besides them. Though I do truly hope they understand the history and weight behind this word, in the end it is their choosing and their right. If this is you, that’s your choosing, for you alone. I am not talking to you.
99% of the usage of cuntboy is by people who are publicly cis, who have no reason to be using it. It is used by people who don't know any better, by people who do know better but choose to continue using it as some sort of strange "fuck you" to those "HORRIBLE SJWS", by people who see it as a quick fetish throwaway term. It is used solely as a sexual kink by people who are not affected by the sexualization of these bodies.
It may be sexual, but that's why it's okay to use it for characters and not for people.
How is anyone supposed to know these relatively murky lines in the sand, when the term is tossed around for every flat-chested vagina-having character? How is anyone supposed to know that term suddenly becomes off-limits for actual people when we never identify the term as a problem in the first place?
I've been called a cuntboy against my wishes, I've been asked how long I've been into "the fetish" when talking about my medical transition, I've had people assume they can be sexual with me when I made my body type known. It's why I talk about it obliquely and rarely now, why I don't post representations of myself here. "Oh that's not right!" you proclaim. And no, it's not, but you can't pretend that the current usage of the word cuntboy in this fandom is not at least partially to blame.
It is used sexually, and therefore people learn that that body type is inherently sexual. A fetish term applies to a fetish, right? It's a fantasy, right? A kink?
Fetishization of trans people is a long-running, deeply rooted, deeply problematic affair. It comes from seeing trans people as sexual objects, as oddities to get erections over and to forget about after you cum. It comes from ignoring the daily realities of living as a trans person, it comes from conveniently forgetting that trans people go through hell for being trans. The terms applied to us come from outside our community, they come from cis people trying to label us as freaks and others, they are slurs. Reclamation is a thing, but you cannot ignore the history of this, and unless you are the affected group you have no reason to be using these terms.
Fetishization of trans people, of presenting our bodies as sexual fetishes and neglecting to address the issues we face (stripping our bodies of their trans conversation and context), leads to people being either ignorant of or outright dismissive of our problems. We have cis men wishing to be cuntboys without realizing the real-world impact of actually, really, truly having that body in the flesh (we can argue back and forth about how appropriate the wishing is, but my focus is on the “not realizing the impact” part). These impacts are many: you can be fired for your gender identity, you can be kicked out of your home, there is a legal defense for murdering trans people simply because they were trans. Rates of inadequate or denied medical care, rates of homelessness, rates of unemployment, rates of harassment, rates of murder, rates of suicide are all monumentally higher in the trans population. Using our bodies purely for sexual thrill ignores this, willfully puts this on the backburner while you jerk off.
So you don't want any trans people in porn?
I have never said this and I will never say this. I want my body type normalized; I want my body type represented. I want to be able to see representatives of my body used in porn, to know that body is still desirable and not some freakish unloveable thing.
Do you know what the opposite of normalized is? Coming up with derogatory terms for my body, relegating it to niche porn, arguing about whether porn featuring my body getting fucked is "gay or not", saying that my body is a fantasy to be enjoyed as a fantasy. It is not normalizing, not flattering, not comfortable when people take my body from me like that, only to turn around and go "Oh no this doesn't have anything to do with you" when it clearly does. I’m sure someone will tell me I’m taking it “too personally” here, which is fine. You’ll have to forgive me for being touchy about this being literally the only representation of my body type that I can see.
In mainstream porn, just about the only content featuring trans people in a not-fetishizing way is porn made independently by the trans people themselves. It is largely the same situation in this fandom. It is incredibly easy to tell the difference between these two styles of content: one is body-positive, aware of the trans context and culture, the other is "chicks with dicks” as a tagline. It's "traps" here to hurt you. It's men being degraded and humiliated for having "unmanly" parts. It's ignorant of the larger conversation.
Porn featuring trans characters is just that: it features them, but does not make the same kind of huge show of their being trans that fetishizing porn does. It does not present their bodies as beyond the norm, it does not make it a selling point to a cis audience. It does not feel the need to refer to the person by their genitals. It does not reduce the character to what's between their legs. The trans person is there because they are a person who can engage in sexual acts, not because the trans condition itself is your kink.
For an example, please, please look at ChrisGoodwin's Fable series. Notice the natural air of the characters, notice its brief but perfect nod to the sometimes complicated conversation between a trans person and their body in a sexual context, notice it never once presenting either character as "more" this or "less" that. Compare it to anything picked off the front page featuring the word cuntboy.
I still don’t like you telling me what words I can and can’t use.
That’s fine, it’s not pleasant to be told something you are saying is hurtful or told that what you are doing is objectionable. I’ve been on that end, I know my kneejerk response was to rationalize reasons why I shouldn’t have to stop using whatever it was. If you want to do that, fine, I can’t stop you and I’m not really trying to. I’m just letting you know that that term is problematic as it is generally used, so you can decide what to do from there. I’m not telling you you literally can’t do something or else the Internet Police are going to get you, I’m saying that you won’t be able to do that without perpetuating these problems. You won’t be able to do that without these problems being talked about. You won’t be able to do that without perpetuating a sexual misrepresentation of a group of people.
I’m not going to argue in circles with people, because this conversation means too much to me to get dragged like that. I’m not going to come into your house and call you a bad person. I’m not going to police your every representation, that's not my job or my right. But I am concerned about this new wave of content, and as a person who has acted under the trans umbrella for coming on a decade now I am aware of cultural trends and how they interplay with common perceptions of trans people. I am aware of my own experience, and I am aware of how others perceive it based on what they know. I am aware of how this new wave of content in the fandom can affect what people know.
Please also be aware this journal will not be updated to fix errors, broken links, or any misspeaking on my part. Keep in mind this is several years old at the time of this note's writing, and much of it is subsequently outdated. Thank you.
To begin with: I will assume you have already heard the conversation on why cuntboy may be an objectionable term. It reduces a body to its genitals, it others these male-identifying bodies by not allowing them to just be “boys.” It is a slur against transmasculine people, and though it has been reclaimed by a few it is by and large used by a cis audience for a cis audience. I’ve talked about this before, and been in conversations about it even more often. I’m commonly presented with the same arguments as to why cuntboy is an okay term for everyone to use, so I’ll be addressing most of those here.
I’ll be saying this a few times, but here it is up front: I am not talking to transmasc people who choose to reclaim the word. I am not talking to transmasc people who choose to reclaim the word. AGAIN: I am not talking to transmasc people who choose to reclaim the word.
I am talking to the cis majority who are oddly in love with this word.
Trans men and cuntboys are different things, cuntboys are a fantasy!
The common reasoning here is something along the lines of "Cuntboys have nothing to do with trans people, they're a fantasy gender, a man born with a vagina!" The problem there being "man born with a vagina" is literally what a trans man is. You just described a trans man (if you disagree, please tell me what your definition of a trans man is; keep in mind "a man in a female body" or “a man who was born a woman” is cissexist and inappropriately gendering bodies, and not an answer I will accept).
I am a transmasculine person, so by most standards I am a "man born with a vagina." My gender is not a fantasy, my body is not a fantasy, my experiences are not a fantasy, the pain I have gone through because of my body and how it is treated is not a fantasy. Hand-waving and going "well THIS is fantasy" is ignoring a very obvious equation and reeks of "it is this way because it is convenient for me." Speaking of:
Cuntboys don't have anything to do with transition or transgender issues!
So you want the bodies of trans people without having to deal with the "icky" bits? So you want to be able to fuck us, as long as we don't whine about having astronomical suicide and homeless rates while you do so? You want to be able to stare at and talk about our genitals, without having to hear about the latest murder?
You don't want to have to deal with the fight for medical treatment and transition, you don't want to have the conversation about what transition can mean to different people. You don't want to talk about how transition is denied us when we need it, you don't want to talk about how some of us have gotten to a point where we may not match "cis standards" with our bodies but are still comfortable in our gender. You want our bodies, but not us.
That's wrong! Some trans people identify as cuntboys!
Good on them, but as someone who is relatively surrounded by trans people, both on and offline, I've only met a handful. Not to say they don’t exist, but that constantly citing them as the reason cuntboy as a whole is okay is a bit misleading. That is a conversation to have, but not the one I am having right now. That term is theirs to reclaim, and I am talking to folks besides them. Though I do truly hope they understand the history and weight behind this word, in the end it is their choosing and their right. If this is you, that’s your choosing, for you alone. I am not talking to you.
99% of the usage of cuntboy is by people who are publicly cis, who have no reason to be using it. It is used by people who don't know any better, by people who do know better but choose to continue using it as some sort of strange "fuck you" to those "HORRIBLE SJWS", by people who see it as a quick fetish throwaway term. It is used solely as a sexual kink by people who are not affected by the sexualization of these bodies.
It may be sexual, but that's why it's okay to use it for characters and not for people.
How is anyone supposed to know these relatively murky lines in the sand, when the term is tossed around for every flat-chested vagina-having character? How is anyone supposed to know that term suddenly becomes off-limits for actual people when we never identify the term as a problem in the first place?
I've been called a cuntboy against my wishes, I've been asked how long I've been into "the fetish" when talking about my medical transition, I've had people assume they can be sexual with me when I made my body type known. It's why I talk about it obliquely and rarely now, why I don't post representations of myself here. "Oh that's not right!" you proclaim. And no, it's not, but you can't pretend that the current usage of the word cuntboy in this fandom is not at least partially to blame.
It is used sexually, and therefore people learn that that body type is inherently sexual. A fetish term applies to a fetish, right? It's a fantasy, right? A kink?
Fetishization of trans people is a long-running, deeply rooted, deeply problematic affair. It comes from seeing trans people as sexual objects, as oddities to get erections over and to forget about after you cum. It comes from ignoring the daily realities of living as a trans person, it comes from conveniently forgetting that trans people go through hell for being trans. The terms applied to us come from outside our community, they come from cis people trying to label us as freaks and others, they are slurs. Reclamation is a thing, but you cannot ignore the history of this, and unless you are the affected group you have no reason to be using these terms.
Fetishization of trans people, of presenting our bodies as sexual fetishes and neglecting to address the issues we face (stripping our bodies of their trans conversation and context), leads to people being either ignorant of or outright dismissive of our problems. We have cis men wishing to be cuntboys without realizing the real-world impact of actually, really, truly having that body in the flesh (we can argue back and forth about how appropriate the wishing is, but my focus is on the “not realizing the impact” part). These impacts are many: you can be fired for your gender identity, you can be kicked out of your home, there is a legal defense for murdering trans people simply because they were trans. Rates of inadequate or denied medical care, rates of homelessness, rates of unemployment, rates of harassment, rates of murder, rates of suicide are all monumentally higher in the trans population. Using our bodies purely for sexual thrill ignores this, willfully puts this on the backburner while you jerk off.
So you don't want any trans people in porn?
I have never said this and I will never say this. I want my body type normalized; I want my body type represented. I want to be able to see representatives of my body used in porn, to know that body is still desirable and not some freakish unloveable thing.
Do you know what the opposite of normalized is? Coming up with derogatory terms for my body, relegating it to niche porn, arguing about whether porn featuring my body getting fucked is "gay or not", saying that my body is a fantasy to be enjoyed as a fantasy. It is not normalizing, not flattering, not comfortable when people take my body from me like that, only to turn around and go "Oh no this doesn't have anything to do with you" when it clearly does. I’m sure someone will tell me I’m taking it “too personally” here, which is fine. You’ll have to forgive me for being touchy about this being literally the only representation of my body type that I can see.
In mainstream porn, just about the only content featuring trans people in a not-fetishizing way is porn made independently by the trans people themselves. It is largely the same situation in this fandom. It is incredibly easy to tell the difference between these two styles of content: one is body-positive, aware of the trans context and culture, the other is "chicks with dicks” as a tagline. It's "traps" here to hurt you. It's men being degraded and humiliated for having "unmanly" parts. It's ignorant of the larger conversation.
Porn featuring trans characters is just that: it features them, but does not make the same kind of huge show of their being trans that fetishizing porn does. It does not present their bodies as beyond the norm, it does not make it a selling point to a cis audience. It does not feel the need to refer to the person by their genitals. It does not reduce the character to what's between their legs. The trans person is there because they are a person who can engage in sexual acts, not because the trans condition itself is your kink.
For an example, please, please look at ChrisGoodwin's Fable series. Notice the natural air of the characters, notice its brief but perfect nod to the sometimes complicated conversation between a trans person and their body in a sexual context, notice it never once presenting either character as "more" this or "less" that. Compare it to anything picked off the front page featuring the word cuntboy.
I still don’t like you telling me what words I can and can’t use.
That’s fine, it’s not pleasant to be told something you are saying is hurtful or told that what you are doing is objectionable. I’ve been on that end, I know my kneejerk response was to rationalize reasons why I shouldn’t have to stop using whatever it was. If you want to do that, fine, I can’t stop you and I’m not really trying to. I’m just letting you know that that term is problematic as it is generally used, so you can decide what to do from there. I’m not telling you you literally can’t do something or else the Internet Police are going to get you, I’m saying that you won’t be able to do that without perpetuating these problems. You won’t be able to do that without these problems being talked about. You won’t be able to do that without perpetuating a sexual misrepresentation of a group of people.
I’m not going to argue in circles with people, because this conversation means too much to me to get dragged like that. I’m not going to come into your house and call you a bad person. I’m not going to police your every representation, that's not my job or my right. But I am concerned about this new wave of content, and as a person who has acted under the trans umbrella for coming on a decade now I am aware of cultural trends and how they interplay with common perceptions of trans people. I am aware of my own experience, and I am aware of how others perceive it based on what they know. I am aware of how this new wave of content in the fandom can affect what people know.
Comment posting has been disabled by the journal owner.
Has someone in the fandom decided to be particularly idiotic about throwing this slur around recently?
And no, not particularly, though to my memory at least the term has gained quite a bit of ground within the past year or two in the fandom.
besides, no one deserves to have a "qualifier" put on their gender, even if its not so horridly offensive in the first place like this is.
would you mind if i linked this in my own journal?
And feel free, I can't promise I'll be able to keep up with the response to this but if you'd like to link it go right on ahead.
but from what I gather is that any trans person is not going to want to hear themselves (by definition,,) described so boldly as the genitalia they are dysphoric towards. if I was mtf, I certainly wouldn't want to hear the word "dickgirl" (if that was a thing) , whether that was towards myself or not.
I hope that makes sense, so sorry if it doesn't aha
Not calling you wrong, but just making a note!
I was just thinking of a specific situation ; ; thanks again
You say you've had your gender changed to male but wish to keep your gentials. I am confused as to how that would make you trans (I'm sorry, I only know the bluntness of trans). I'm not trying to say you need surgery but what are the correct terms that make her trans?
Is it feeling you're born in the wrong body?
Being a male with a feminine outlook on life
Please forgive me as these are honest questions and I'm not trying to be rude I just don't understand some things. If you wish to note me, that works.
I am trans because I was assigned female at birth (meaning from the time I was born going forward, I was told I was a girl), but I'm not female. I don't identify as a girl, therefore my gender identity doesn't match the identity I was assigned. That's it.
More specifically I can't really describe what makes me identify the way I do, but I feel strongly enough about it to go through all the hassle of coming out and getting hormone treatment. I'm not sure if that answers anything for you though.
Trans people are trans before they transitions *and* after they transition - if they transition at all! Some folks won't either because of financial reasons or because they're ok with their form. Regardless of their body, their gender identity is their reality and is totally valid. Trans isn't short for transition - it refers to a whole spectrum of the non-binary gender rainbow.
Plus also, the "man trapped inside a woman's body" is a narrative that only applies to *some* gender queer and trans folk. There are way more diverse experiences out there. For instance, you don't need to swap out one binary system for another - you can exist somewhere along the spectrum or tangent into another place altogether!
Once you start breaking these assumptions that someone is either in one camp or the other, I think things will click for you. For further reading check out this comic: http://whatsnormalanyway.net
Hope I did the topic justice. OP feel free to correct anything here.
(Also yes Chris Goodwin's comic is exceptional I adore it a lot)
Feel free to link if you think it's worth linking!
If you're cis, don't use it. If you're trans, don't use it for other people and remind people that they shouldn't use it for other people either.
This was painful and wonderful and hits all the bits I recognize in my own experiences <3
and while I am not a dmab trans person I've heard from trans women that the same can be applied to words like dick girl and trap also (if you mentioned those I'm sorry my reading comprehension is not the greatest!)
Thank you for this post.
I've had my character referred to as such in the past purely based on the fact that she has no visible breasts, it's really disheartening sometimes. It doesn't necessarily bother me but I would wish it wasn't an expression in the first place.
Thank you for making this comprehensive and extensive writeup.
Is it appropriate? No. However, part of the reason that I refer to him as such is because he is, well, what could be referred to as "acting like a cunt".
Cunt is not a word that should be politely used to refer to anyone or anyone's sexual organs. I have other trans characters (used to represent myself, most often) that I would never refer to as any such thing.
Part of the other reason is that, by using that term, the majority of people (who are not always LGBT aware and knowledgeable as they should be) see the term and go "Ah, it's in jest". Should it be taken as a joking matter? No, probably not.
In regards to your opening few statements, though... You're not a man born with a vagina. You are a MAN. You are more than the sum of whatever genitalia you might have been born with. Overall, I agree with your statements here- and perhaps some of my... hesitation at the word comes through my own struggles with defining my gender status, sexual orientation, and just trying to figure out how the hell I even work.
I dunno. I just overall think that people need to be more educated- because then word choice probably wouldn't be such an issue? It's the connotations that come alongside the word usage that make it what it is. Regardless, I just get angry at the fact that everyone is so fucking worried about everyone else's bits. WE, all of us, are more than whatever genitalia we were born with. Trust me, the main thing I hate the most is the fact that I have massive breasts- being genderfluid and fluctuating back and forth makes my life miserable. If I am having a female day, they're great! I love them! People stare at them! If I am having a male day... some days I get beyond depressed and want to chop them off, blood-loss and ER visit be damned. They get in the way, they're wrong, people are staring. But if I chopped them off, my female days would be miserable because then I'm just some titless fatass.
It's hard to keep reminding yourself that you're more than the sum of your body parts. :\
Hopefully I didn't offend (too much). This journal really did make me think (and re-think) and then ramble on, because it's honestly just a really tough issue to handle.
Though I will say that, within a certain meaning, I am a man with a vagina. The same way that I am a man with blue eyes, or a man with ten fingers. It isn't any more or less indicative of my gender or my self than those things, since I don't designate it any special importance there. Most of my dysphoria comes from society and others doing so, as it is. Which is perhaps why I take such an issue with the widespread use of this particular term.
The next closest thing I can compare it to (at least, things I've encountered in my own life) is people not understanding the BDSM lifestyle and thinking that Domme or Mistress automatically means "I'll do things for money like a hooker". (Also the irritating amount of velcrocollars that I run into). While not of exactly the same weight/caliber as misgendering people, it's still a rampant (and hurtful) thing to run into.
ANYWAY, at this point I'm kinda tired so I'm rambling and probably have said at least one really stupid/offensive thing unintentionally. I hope you (or anyone who reads it) kinda takes my words worth a grain of salt and doesn't take them too seriously. I admit I'm really horrible with getting my point across (hence all the rambling).
I, personally at least, wouldn't refer to you as any of those things (a man with a vagina, a man with blue eyes or ten fingers or whatever). Again, I think labeling people because of their body parts is just a stupid thing to do. I just honestly wish society as a whole would understand that fact.
Though yeah, I'll agree that I'd never use "man with a vagina" as a label, that was a misunderstanding on my part. More than it's a body type descriptor I'll use when it's relevant to establish a background for my experiences.
My personal history with the term: trans men were just so far off the radar of cis men [who have sex w/ men] that it was both irritating to hear the kinds of "omg ewww" talk from gay men, and have to do sudden 101 sessions with chasers who were only into trans women, that "cuntboy" kind of came out of an aggressive and self-aware ironic possession of the whole situation. Basically, I and the narrow number of other ftm-transitioning folks i saw were being little shits and throwing this idea that we were uncomfortable with at people who made us feel even worst about it. It never really went anywhere tbh. Then, kind of out of the aether a few years ago, suddenly it became this trend in certain parts of the online fantasy/RP adult scene, and yeah: it was all really cis dudes who "invented" this "new" kind of "intersex" (quotes b/c i find their use of the term to be wrong and wrong-headded).
My squick comes mostly because I've totally dealt with these dudes IRL, and they either fall into three camps: gay cis dudes who think that somehow having a vagina makes getting/having sex with other men easier (but act totally squicked out by vaginas all other times)(basically totally minimizing haw incredibly awkward it is to navigate sex/gender/sexuality when you don't fit ppls cisheteronormative expectations); bicurious cis dudes who are terrified of being with other cis dudes b/c of their own homophobia; and straight cis dudes who are into "butch/manly/punk chicks" and feel that FAAB-trans ppl are an extension of "unfeminine female" people (particularly if they're early on in their transition - because again, they totally wouldn't be with other cis men and there is a line). It hasn't quite made the fictional-porn to real-ppl-porn leap, but it's coming and there are already plenty of cis folks who'd want a word they can toss around.
But, I think that in your write up, there's kind of a disservice to trans women and all MAAB-trans ppl: they've had to deal with terms like "dickgirl" and "shemale" for almost/over half a century, and are the people who deal with the brunt of society's fetishization of trans ppl + it's systemic transphobia, that makes being trans (specifically, a trans woman) such a dangerous and volatile situation. I don't want to harp on it, but it seems important when talking about discrimination and murder to be clear on who have been the most vulnerable.
I will note that I am aware that mainstream transphobia is largely aimed at trans women, who are the more visible and most easily targeted subgroup. The rates of nearly everything I was mentioning are higher for them than other trans subgroups, and that definitely needs conversation of its own. However, as I am a dfab trans person, I didn't feel quite right engulfing that talk in this one, especially if it was only going to be secondary to my main talking point. It didn't feel quite right "oh and yeah there's also this happening BUT MOVING ON" about something that serious, and since it's not my experiences I wasn't sure how much of a stage I should take there. That said, thank you for bringing it up.
Also I don't see it that way, I think it's just a flavour of a larger systemic issue regarding cis people's co-option of trans bodies as sex objects.
You can't GENDER a body, let alone inappropriately.
No, it's SEXing bodies, and there's exactly nothing inappropriate about that as bodies have a sex (male and female and a few inbetween, ie. you just claimed intersex people don't exist). It's simple biology. You have sex chromosomes, your body (under normal circumstances such as not having testosterone resistance as a foetus for example) will be formed into one of the two sexes, and typically your gender (or gender identity if we must) will agree with that. Trans people's gender simply does not agree with their sex. They may attempt to fix their body to agree with their gender, but that we all know doesn't change the chromosomes and quite a few workings of their body – bar the outward appearance and some of the sexual hormone stuff.
There's also no such word as cissexist.
Trans politics aside... As far as cuntboys in the fantasy world go: they would be more appropriately compared to certain kinds of intersex people who happen to be male (XY), identify as male, but due to some error in the gonad development they grew something that resembles a vagina. So um, not even really a fantasy thing, these people do exist! A vast (biological) difference from having an XX body, identifying as male, and then changing the body to look and almost feel like an XY one, except the penis.
Unfortunately I am on mobile for the next few days, so I cannot be as thorough as I wish I could be, but this comment of mine features several links that show that "simple biology" is far from. Scientific terms are created by humans and are thus subject to bias, as are scientific studies, as well.
I apologize if it seemed I claimed intersex people do not exist, that was not my intention.
Cissexist is a word commonly used in the larger trans conversation. As this is part of that conversation, I used it.
That aside, I am arguing mostly about the interralations between cuntboy depictions and trans bodies and how one affects the other. This happens regardless of rationalizing the characters as "not trans," and I address why stripping a body commonly held by trans people of its trans (or intersex, I suppose, since I'm feeling this is where you're getting my intersex erasure from) status is just as much a problem.
Oh, gendering in that sense. Well, I guess that's a matter of pov. People who don't know your gender (or indeed those who refuse to acknowledge it; but m9st random people out there aren't mind readers) aren't misgendering your body, they are misgendering you. If your body shows up as female, in the case of the vast majority of people this means the person in that body also is a female.
Many people don't even know trans people exist to even assume that this might not hold true for you.
My medical care is to treat me as an ill female person until I proved otherwise via years of therapy and networking. That is gendering my body, and saying that it cannot be the body of a male person. My birth certificate will never be changed unless I opt for radical surgery, because without these changes my body is "too female" to count. That is gendering my body.
Your last statement is what cissexism entails, actually. Assuming trans people don't exist, and that being cis is the default, normal, sometimes only option. Spreading awareness and speaking to the contrary can help, even if it's to just a few people like in this situation.
I remember a while back commenting on an art piece on here saying very respectfully that the term 'cuntboy' was disrespectful to plenty of people on the sexual identity spectrum and was attacked by several individuals. One had the 'it's fantasy, they don't really exist' mentality, then turned around and called me a 'degenerate cuntboy'.
Some people truly are amazing in how they behave, huh?
And of course, that last part is what drives my brain in circles about the definitions of sex and gender. It's a topic, I believe, that is going to take us time to work out properly. Many societies still struggle with homosexuality, which is far less cognitively wracking to our definitions than gender identity and transgender equality. There are no proper terms, no truly correct pronouns, and no well defined definitions for this subject just yet, and until there is I believe transgendered peopled will continue to struggle for equality. Human beings need groups and definitions to categorize; it's how our brains function. The day proper and respectful terms are laid out, or at least merged into mainstream society, is the day when equality will not be far behind.
As a cis hetero female I keep being worryied about what's right and that I could hurt others because of a lack of knowledge. I'm so afraid that recklessy used words might be offensive for trans people, even though I'd never do this on purpose. That article's made a lot of things clear for me, thank you!
But, and I don't mean to be rude, could you please explain to me why "a man in a female body" or “a man who was born a woman” is cissexist and inappropriate? I was under the assumption that those were appropriate if the person has expressed their gender that way. Like if a transman in that situation wanted to be referred to as male obviously I would do that but when describing them otherwise (perhaps to someone who isn't very aware of trans people) I thought those would be ok?
It genders bodies in a way that may not be wanted and may in fact trigger dysphoric episodes (my dysphoria presents in this way: I have no problem with my body, but I have a problem with people referring to it and viewing it in ways that do not match my identity).
Referring to a trans man as a "man in a woman's body" removes the person from their body. If it is their body, is it not a man's body? If it is a body that makes up a male person, is it not a male body? Referring to a trans man as a "man who was born a woman" discredits that person's identity, it presents their being a man as something not an instrinsic part of themselves but rather something that they chose later on. A man is a man; unless that person chooses to describe their experiences as such, they weren't ever a woman, despite what people forced on them.
I don't know how it came about anyway. I don't like the use of the word cunt to describe my lady parts, and as a cis female I wouldn't want to be referred to as a cuntgirl either. Even abbreviating it to c-boy. Nty.
Did you go out and ask all the cis people of the world if they liked being called cis? Have you heard a cis person say they agree with it, so that justifies the term? The reasons for supporting and hating the two words are exactly the same, its just you happen to view one as an insult, while I happen to view both as generally an insult. Do you also realize that most people here aren't 'cis' as you would put and define it.
if cis was a slur thatd make the term transgender a slur
Cis and trans are commonly juxtaposed terms (for example, cis and trans isotopes in chemistry). Cis in this context is a shorthand for cisgender, as a term for someone who is not trans, or transgender. What would you prefer the term be and mean?
Sure, you don't consider it an insult yourself, but on the same term, the people here who use the term cuntboy typically don't think it's an insult either. How can you judge one as bad and the other as not bad? So you find it insulting to see the word cuntboy used by some people, and that makes it bad. At the same time, if I find the word cis used to refer to myself to be insulting, I just need to learn what the word really means.
You take two directly opposite views, with only common factor being your opinion on what the word's mean being more relevant than other people's.
alas, cis and cisgender are not in the same class in those words, and the fact that a marginalized group of people speaking their frustrations about a more powerful and oppressive group(that im assuming you are a part of) makes you feel that way, there is probably reason to examine yourself in that sense
having transgender friends does not exempt you from having internalized issues of things like transphobia. we ALL have that issue, even trans people themselves work to unlearn that shit as we grow up among a heavily gendered and binaristic society
Why we all can't just respect every opinion is beyond me. I mean, I can understand opinions like Hitler's being not normal, but that's because he wanted to /kill people/. You can have your opinions, just don't press them on others if they don't want to take them on as their own, and kill if they won't. That's just common sense.
that is the point i am making
we cannot just "view everyone as equals" before we examine the oppressing powers that be and the groups of people marginalized by them. we can not just pretend that power dynamic away. it takes active work to remove this
there are far more genders than male and female
Just because there's large groupings that are taught phobic and hateful things doesn't mean that every individual ever is brought up to think the same thing. And just because there are certain histories of societies that may put off some of those hateful vibes into their culture, it doesn't mean it is every societies way. And your assuming that everyone is raised and has had the privilege to grow up surrounded by other ideals and concepts, around other individuals. Something needs to be taught for it to be unlearned, and... if it isn't taught in the first place, what is there to unlearn?
...Not to say any of this is necessarily true about said ArahkeaLuno, but there's always the probability that it could be. And each and every individual one is going to encounter and talk to is going to be a different person, with a different story and background. You have to think outside of your own experiences and your own country every now and again.
BUUUUUTTT on a separate note, on a localized scale of certain countries and societies, this is, unfortunately enough, a pretty over-shadowing truth keeping people from moving forward in such places.
That's like comparing straight to the slur f*g
Cis is a word that has existed for a while now, it's not just some ~silly made up tumblr term~
For comparison, would you say straight is a demeaning term? There are straight people and there are gay people. You wouldn't say "no, there's people and then there's gay people" because that sounds very rude and exclusionary. Cis/cisgender is not meant to be taken as an insult and i'm sorry if something that has happened that has made you feel that way.
Again, I think that may have been what they were trying to say? Sorry if i'm totally wrong and continue with your corrects if I was lol
Either way though, this journal wasn't meant to be about cis people, its about trans people and a pretty gross term thats thrown about regarding them, so this may not be the place to bring up issues with the term Cis, friend owo
educate urselves and don't u dare use any terms like this around me
it's not funny or hot or cute its a goddamn slap in the face to me and many many other transgendered people
stop genitalia fetish characters 2k15
feel free to give your opinion, but as a trans person i see absolutely nothing wrong with the content of that journal. and considering how terrible somethingfishy's behavior has been, i doubt that any of the journals they have a problem with are actually bad
That being said, I'd like to know: I saw someone call them self a ( excuse me) demiboy, and I see femboy all the time and have used it before.
are these terms okay?
Femboy is more up in the air. I personally don't like the term because calling a certain range of bodies / presentations / etc. feminine, to the point of influencing what people call the person's gender, to be very uncomfortable (for example, I see people labelling any guy with hips bigger than a straw a femboy; as someone who does not identify at all with feminine labels but has larger hips I am otherwise comfortable with, this worries me about having my body misinterpreted or mislabelled). It enforces a lot of stereotypical gender roles, for me personally.
But people can definitely call themselves what they like, and I don't see the term being nearly as problematic as what's already been discussed.
I really appreciate you informing me!
But it's still something I'm kind of feeling out the specifics of.
Personally, I don't believe "cuntboy" has anything to do with transsexualism. Cuntboy is more of a gender identity, whereas transsexual is a transition by definition.
Most of the time, cuntboy characters aren't even FtM bodies. Typically they're born and end up that way after puberty, whereas FtM typically take a lot of work to even get to that point.
also there could be said an issue with your use of transsexualism as opposed to transgenderism, as transsexual is a term that denotes those that have medically and surgically transitioned. not all trans people do this, for a variety of reasons. reasons that could be personal, medical, monetary, etc, the list can go on. separating people who have transitoned from those who have not can hurt both ends. there is a widespread and harmful belief among especially cisgender people who practice gatekeeping against trans people that in order to verify and give validity to their transness, they must be on the road to full medical transition which includes radical and still dangerous surgeries
saying words like cuntboy being "more of a gender identity" whereas transness isnt is absurd. if being a trans man, trans woman, nonbinary, even cisgender individual isnt a gender identity, then what is? you are defining this by transsexualism and the process of medically transitioning as being the validity of ones gender identity, which is frankly exactly the kind of harmful thinking i outlined above. if transsexual is a transition by definition, then i posit to you, what of those transgender people who do not transition?
My main point was... whatever you want to identify as, why not? Hell, if you wanna describe it as a "banana peel", go for it. Nobody should stop you. That goes for "cuntboy" too.
you are defining this by transsexualism and the process of medically transitioning as being the validity of ones gender identity... if transsexual is a transition by definition, then i posit to you, what of those transgender people who do not transition?
As a transgender (to use your terminology) person, myself, I don't identify as such. It has absolutely nothing to to do with my identity... just that my body doesn't fit my gender identity. People who don't transition and still have that disconnect definitely have a right to that term, but I honestly don't see the appeal in celebrating/having pride in having that disconnect.
the fantasy / reality aspect is kind of tough. it seems common for people to use and distort the male or female form to suit their personal preferences. so it's not a huge surprise that some would choose to mix aspects of male and female forms. it is entirely possible that these fantasy being are a selection which inadvertently closely resembles people who actually exist. i don't know if that necessarily means they see people resembling that being as sex objects too. but i would hope people could differentiate between fantasy and reality. and either way, i don't know if it gives them quite enough reason to not bother with any sensitivity towards trans people at all just because its not an intentional sexualisation and degradation of them.
trans people are not fairly treated, but i am not sure the people with characters of sexual fantasy are the real problem.
i don't know if i see the definition of "man who was born a woman" as a terrible thing to say. it does seem incorrect since both terms are usually more about gender than sex, but society hasn't broken the ties between sex and gender yet, so most people don't know the difference until they are expressly taught otherwise (and even then it can be difficult for people to grasp as its an alien subject to them). posts like this of people sharing their feelings are bound to be a positive (although i would expect furries to be more aware considering the diversity of gender and sexuality).
a couple of reasons i can relate to why sex and gender are confusing is that their meaning can get a bit confusing depending on how you choose to analyse it. alot of what is masculine or feminine seems to have been decided on by society to strengthen the differences between sexes; so when removed from sex, makes considerably less sense. sex also gets confusing when we consider the levels of in-betweens and what we choose to define sex on (preferred gender, sex organs, chromosomes).
still, even with gender and sex being a potentially confusing subject, it still doesn't diminish the feelings people may have on the subject. it is clearly very personal to people and it seems good to show a bit of sensitivity. unfortunately i think trans people sort of have to bear with people a bit because the issues seem rather new to society as a whole.
Where does Chris say that one / both of them is/are trans? I assume the mouse is, based upon one of the comments, but I don't see anything within the strip itself, nor from the author himself. I'm not saying that a comic character can't be trans just because it isn't made obvious, but I'm worried that I might be missing some social cue that tells me that someone identifies as trans. Is it in the poses? In the clothing? The social dynamics? Something about the dialogue? Was it in the author's notes of an earlier version? It's freaking me out how people can just know someone is trans -- is that even something someone can or should do? How does everyone know?
Transgender, Transsexual, and many other gender identities still have yet been accounted for seem to be an alien subject still. (Which
FUN FACT! Apparently being pansexual does not mean anything, therefore I am immediately pointed as either being gay, heterosexual, or bisexual. So I am labeled as gay since I am currently with my mate of the same gender as I, regardless countless of times of letting my doctor know that I really do not care for genders of other, but the personality and how they treat me.
Aside from that, I have to agree with this journal. It is pretty important to let everyone know how others can feel. A lot of people need to be wary of using that term as well. There will still be people that will use the term 'cuntboy' or 'dickgirl' as a proper term to describe their character/themselves. It is unfortunate too. But those that use those words need to learn that if they do not like that term, then they need to understand to not use those words specifically.
I also hate the term herm. FurAffinity even has the option under "Gender." There may be people who identify as this (though I haven't seen anybody who has), but a lot of people really don't like it. I would just refrain from using these words and other words like it unless explicitly given permission to by the person that identifies as it.
You probably know, but I just thought I should mention it for the people that don't.
I am most certainly guilty of misusing gender terms and I have been lucky enough to have trans and non binary friends who have lovingly corrected me. The term "cunt" to me in general is so derogatory and belittling of a body part, let alone a human being(I know words like that are often used in smut and dirty rp's, etc., and that's fine, but I'm speaking of it being used in an everyday situation). "Cuntboy" just feels bad as does "dickgirl" and the like.
I have used terms like femboy for my characters, yes, I know that can be offensive and after reading this and comments I'm trying to change my way of thinking and find new terms.
Currently, I have a couple of male to female transgender characters that I plan to hopefully do a comic over. I've asked trans friends and done a little bit of research in advance, but I can see that there are still many factors and situations I haven't considered that non binary gendered and trans individuals face regularly.
Okay, enough rambling. xD
I suppose I do wish to ask your feelings on a comic featuring realistic situations (not romanticized) with trans characters as the main focus?
Do you think it would be better to have the focus on characters going through male to female and female to male transition (as well as the very real rejection that regularly occurs)? If you are in favor of a comic like I mentioned, do you have any suggestions for topics or situations?
I don't know what people say when transitioning. I would personally just say I am transitioning and I have always been a male. I'm not sure I really feel qualified to give a definite answer about it, though, since I haven't transitioned. Sorry! >.<
I'm okay with my physical sex/genetic gender/etc, but I have struggled emotionally with my identity and spent a short period of early adolescence where I was very confused. I felt like some blend of man and woman mentally. I also even still have issues with how prominent my physical body is with displaying my gender(prominent curves, very wide hips structurally). I'm not sure what my deal is, but I know that all the conflicting emotions I've experienced can only be a fraction of what trans individuals must feel. That, I think, was the beginning of my wishing to respectful to people of all identities, lifestyles, and so on.
Sorry for rambling. ^-^;
"I felt like some blend of man and woman mentally."
Try looking into the identity "androgyne" as a gender if you haven't! The basic definition is identifying as having masculine and feminine traits, without feeling completely male or female.
I don't even know where you're going with the rest of this comment it is a mess. You're right that a female is not a vagina, it's a gender identity.
It's a very clear example of people more or less taking a piss on trans people. Or how to put it. As like you said, people seem to go with a bit of a "It's just porn!" excuse.
Something I've noticed way too often people use, especially for both "cuntboys" and "futa" is the "it's not gay!" excuse. A good example is on one of Wolfy Nails "cuntboy" pics. (though, why someone would waste money on have that hack do anything but penises is beyond me when they can't draw vulvae) Either case, someone there outright claimed that any flat chested character with a vulva, was just a muscular chick. Because that way, there was "no homo". Thus to them, it was justified for them to be aroused by it. The owner of the character outright stated that "No, they identify as male." and got a reply back with "Lol, yeah right. Whatever you imagine yourself to believe." (or something akin those lines) Just having 0 respect for a character gender identity.
Another person that shows clear LGBT neglect is... forgot their name, but they drew a male (futa with male identity) and female Queen Chrysalis version, half-assing the female one by spending ~2-3 hours less on it. This was pointed out to them, (both the identity thing, and the shoddy work) and they lashed out with a "Everything with tits is female, regardless of what the fuck their creator says, or the character or person with the tits identifies as." And think they had the obligatory "Because otherwise it would be gay!" excuse in there too. And considering around ~90 % of all futa (in porn) identify as male, that's quite a harsh statement to make. Honestly, the sheer amount of "Oh, I'm just calling them by female pronouns, because otherwise it would be gay" is ridiculous when it comes to "feminine body, male genital" characters. Heck, there's even some, if I recall, black-ish equine-ish character with glowing blue stripes that is a submissive humanoid female with equine traits, that gender and species swaps into a dominant male equine antrho with oversized genitals. So they change size, proportion, gender, species, preference and personality... but the owner of the char literally said they were too lazy to make another character, they just took the same one and altered it severely to save time, and make it "less confusing". I'd personally have to say making them like, half-siblings would make more sense than just going "yeah, that's actually the same character! You can tell by them having near identical color schemes!"
... trailing off here. But yeah. It really ticks me off on how thick some people are.
Especially with the massive double moral going around in the fandom on what's acceptable or not. Not to mention the demanded stereotypes of how a character is allowed to be.
THANK YOU
VERY GOOD
thank you.
im glad most of the comments are positive. haha brings me hope
Me being more NB and having less dysphoria might end up confusing those who think it’s fine to use the terms, so better I show someone who is more experienced in these situations talk about this, than having to explain over and over again