Well, it is discrimination. But that isn't a bad thing.

Discrimination based upon sexual appeal due to sexuality is a complicated matter.

Even then. How functional is the 'trans-man' in this scenario? Do they present as completely male, or do they still have many female characteristics?

All we have to go off in this scenario is the biological homosexual male's words of "actual, biological men".

We don't have enough context in this hypothetical situation to properly determine what is going on. If it was said in frustration, jest, or something else.

Due to the limited context, I am unlikely to be able to determine if he has 'unreasonable expectations'.

And even then. It could just be something mental for him. That if he knows about something like that, something inside him finds it off putting. That is fine. Nothing wrong with that either.

Anyway, need more context fam!

So you're saying that 'passing' is the standard by which gay-man can say yes or no to dating/having sex with a biological woman, in regards to whether or not he's a bigot?


Also, I said 'bigoted', not 'discriminatory'. Big difference.

So you're saying that 'passing' is the standard by which gay-man can say yes or no to dating/having sex with a biological woman, in regards to whether or not he's a bigot?

Pffft no.

I was saying that if they can 'pass' then it can seem homosexual enough for a homosexual to be able to have some homosex with them is all. That it wouldn't be unattractive to the right person under the right conditions.

Also, I said 'bigoted', not 'discriminatory'. Big difference.

Yeah, I know.

And I didn't even touch on the 'bigot' part. Because there is too little context.

Because if he is just like. Nah' don't like folks who used to be female, makes me feel icky. And it is just a preference, without any strong OH GOD NO! Kinda thing. Then no, it isn't bigoted.

Hmm. Running with that hypothetical though. The OH GOD NO! Response. Even then it is dealing with attraction. So would probably go with not bigoted, but still wanting more context.

If it was an OH GOD NO! Response to even being close to the person, having anything to do with the person, and dealing with them at all due to the fact of their possession of the XX sex chromosomes. Then yeah that could be considered bigoted.

Okay then; what WOULD be bigoted, in your mind? The 'OH GOD NO' response in regards to dating / having sex with them?

The 'OH GOD NO' response in regards to dating / having sex with them?

Interesting questions. I think not really.

Okay then; what WOULD be bigoted, in your mind?

Bigoted seems to be intending to mean, a very strong aversion/response to something and 'utterly intolerant' of it.

It would be bigoted if they actively tried to get other gay men not to date them because of it. Not wanting them to be allowed into gay men only bars/clubs, not wanting to be around them/etc... needs to hit that 'utterly intolerant' of it aspect. Not so much if they are acting on their own accord and just have a preference that they don't like it (even to the OH GOD NO! response, it seems).

Maulkin, as always, I love your journals.

Yesterday I told my boyfriend that I am highly considering changing parts of my body to be more masculine, but I am not interested in fully transitioning. I DO think of myself as more masculine than feminine, and always have. I expected him to be creeped out; and rightly so, but he was surprisingly very, very supportive, and I'm glad to have him.

While what I want to do poses severe moral questions for myself internally, if I actually go through with what I am obsessed with, I know I couldn't expect full "tolerance." I think it's reasonable to be uncomfortable around someone who is kinda weird when it comes to gender. I'm not going to go around shrieking at people to address me as "him" [though I would probably prefer it at this point] and/or bringing this part of my life up at the beginning of every conversation.

Also, I am asexual; so I'd be sexually attracted to neither men nor women, and wouldn't give two shits if I was rejected for being post-op whatever. In my mind, that is a valid reason to not want to be with someone.

Whatever. Hope there was a kernel of truth somewhere in my rambling. It's been a long few days.

Well here's a trans gay guys perspective!

Im with someone who's completely male and gay. MOST gay men will always come around to a vagina. It's just instinct at that point.

Sexual interest is physical. Yea I guess there's a mental aspect but try doing it with someone that looks like ass. Not easy.
Now try doing it when you like dick and hey guess what theres no dick!

I think it's a-okay to only be into certain body parts. Same with weight, height, race ect.

This! ^^^

I don't want to change my lower half though; I just desire a breast-less, masculine upper body. And my boyfriend's like "you'll still be the same down there, right?" "Yes!" "Okay, then it's not a problem." He also told me not to worry too much about it and whatever I choose won't affect our relationship. [Also, if I DID fully transition, I'd still be asexual but would still wanna be with my guy. :) ]

As I've found, the key is to keep things simple and be prepared for any and all reactions. People have a right to be with/not be with who they want for any reason, really.

Now I wanna see some SJWs shriek about how transphobic you two are for not thinking the gay-guy is being bigoted =p

Yep. I'm a transphobic c-boy. Fuck people like me, man. Just... Fuck 'em.

Actually, *not* fucking you is the issue... =p

*snickers* It's funny watching the schisms forming between an increasing number of gay people and the LGBTWTFBBQ groups. I wonder if gay people will be a new 'privileged' class?

I don't know about Privileged class as that is always just super rich fucks, gay or straight.

I do love seeing the left and PC culture ripping itself apart.

All these little sub-groups constantly forming are eating themselves from the inside out... In their play to be as "diverse" as possible, they form so many little exclusionary groups that it literally breaks a once easy to understand group into something insanely complex. If these little new micro-groups aren't trying to be mainstream professional victims, they are trying to out-victim the other victims even if it means making up false "oppression".

You got crossdressers/transvestites hating transgenders, and transexuals calling out transgenders as just crossdressers, transgenders shutting down drag-queen shows, and gay people calling out straight people that are pretending to be gay, or straight people pretending to be gay calling gays homophobes.

It's fucking nuts.

This is how political correctness died in the 70s and 90s, people couldn't stand having to consult a book or calling a hotline to find out what little "sub-group of a sub-group", or person, or topic, they shouldn't talk about, or accidentally upset, that particular day, every day.

I liked it better when sexual orientation was just that... No other bullshit attached to it. I just happen to be a guy that is gay.

Now everyone seems to want to be part of some "revolution" even if they have to make up pretend enemies to do it.

Personally I think it was a bitch move for the identity groups to latch onto a popular movement known for its pacifistic faggots, instead of starting their own movement and earning respect and such the hard way. lol So now we got this nutjob crazy "minority of a minority" being so fucking loud that it is actually HURTING gay rights and equality as a whole all over the world.

Every time Bruce Jenner stands up his ugly as sin ass and talks about representing the LGBTQI-+BBQ "community" I go "Oh the fuck you don't!"

Haha. As someone who aspires to present as a male, I enjoyed your comment and agreed with much of it. :)

I believe you are correct in saying being trans is fetishistic, but there are truly moments in my life where I think to myself, automatically, "man, if I was a guy right now..." I didn't pay much mind to those thoughts BECAUSE I didn't wanna be associated with the LGBTABCDEFGHIJKLMNOP group, which seems to be a bunch of-- as you said-- weird, unloved fourteen-year-olds trying to be "cool." Which is disgusting. :(

Also, I was just at a show last night and I met a lesbian and literally EVERY SENTENCE SHE SAID was about being gay. I honestly don't want anyone to know about my bizarre psychology, and I only post comments here because you have no idea who I am when I walk away from my computer. ;) In real life, I hope I never have to talk about how I feel more than I have to.

I don't view you as hateful/bigoted at all. I think it's completely rational to not understand/not want to understand trans life, just like I'm not going to study up on gay life. You don't have to think about it, no matter what anyone tries to impose on you.

<3

See, I like that you understand that just because someone disagrees with you, does not automatically mean they hate you and want you dead.

And hey, if you can make me understand how genital mutilation and taking massive amounts of the incorrect hormones is biologically and physiologically a good thing, you'd be the first, lol.

As for the gay life, its 2 dudes really into rubbing their dicks all over and in each other, that should be pretty easy to figure out from the short definition of gay.

^_^

;)

And trans stuff IS weird/unnatural. I'm not saying it isn't. Going through it is absolutely crazy, and normalizing it is NOT the answer. I've already decided that, in the case of getting top surgery, I would try to give back to the community as much as possible; volunteering and things of that nature. Because at the end of the day, trans surgery IS a selfish thing to do. You're changing a body that God gave you and having a doctor work on you instead of someone whose life is at risk. Sounds like the obvious choice is to not do it, right? The feelings I have about it are mixed for these reasons. Hopefully therapy will either allow me to go through reduction surgery OR perhaps help me realize that it wouldn't help.

I have a friend of mine who wanted to transition and it still bothers me to this day because I KNOW she's doing it for all the wrong reasons... I think she was trying to get back at her family, coupled with how trendy it is to pretend you have mental illness. :P

As for me dealing with my odd thoughts, I keep a sense of humor about it and try to express it through my male characters.

Also, ew, I'd never take testosterone. :( The hormone things are the creepiest thing of all to me. Being male is more of a fantasy for me; I'd want to be able to still be girly when I'm with my bf, at least some of the time. :P

Woosh. Well, now you know I'm a total nutcase, but my point is that I hate the attitude people have in our society of "BE URSELF AND IF NO1 ACCEPTS U ITS THEIR FAULT, NOT URS!!!!" It's a way of thinking that reinforces that everyone is right and discourages discussions like we're having right now. It's normal to be uncomfortable around someone who's obviously changed their gender. I think it's normal for some people to be uncomfortable around someone they know is gay. You can be uncomfortable around someone and still respect them as a human being, even if the thing that makes you uncomfortable you don't respect.

Maybe if everyone was just a little less egotistical and stopped demanding everyone they view as "hateful" explain their "hate" to have a short few seconds of moral superiority over them, we could actually have a world where if someone says something "offensive," the other party would know to simply nod and smile and move the conversation in another direction, rather than ridicule and chastise them.

Or maybe I've finally lost my mind. Who knows.

"And trans stuff IS weird/unnatural."

I bet if I said that I'd be punished for 'malicious speech' before the week was out. You'll probably get away with it, though, since you're trans yourself - ie, you're allowed to say it. Because it's not discriminatory to allow one group to say something and punish another group for saying the exact same thing.[/sarcasm]

XD Idk, I'm also a conservative Republican, so I could be labeled as a "poser," thus making everything I say and do completely worthless.

Holy crap right?

Like how dare you not fit into the narrow definition the lefties have set for you. They're still pissed I'm monogamous, not swishy, and like guns and cars. ^_^

It's harder and more dangerous to "come out" as a republican or anyone "right of the left", than it is to come out as gay, furry, weeabo, or any number of other crazy things.

Hell, even being a "Classical Liberal" or "Constitutional Conservative" is seen as being some sort of fascist Nazi supporter now.

I'm basicly someone who has similar gender aspirations but with the sexes reversed with some general furryness thrown in and I've been around the gender changing fetishist community for years (a lot of overlap with the transformation fetishist crowd think mister metokurs deviants episode 7 crowd). and you're absolutly right that it's weird and unusual (I was shocked when I heard transgenderism being talked about on diane rehme a few years back). personally I make a distinction between the fetishist community and the lgbt libtards. there is some overlap but there's a distinct difference in attitude between them. and I just find if frustrating that the lgbt lunatics have managed to bamboozle the public into thinking they represent those letters. because they don't. if anything they set back the trans indifference movement because they just polarize people, not to mention the rampant idiocy and the only thing I get offended by is unchecked idiocy (think the flat earther types). I know some fully transitioned trans people too and they're both gamers first. I seriously just wish that the lgbt poltical movements would stop shoving their genitals in everyone's faces. the only time I find the practice acceptable is if the guy doing the shoving is hot and has a big dick.

^^^

You and me both, buddy.

I'm gonna flat out just say no is the answer to those questions. people are attracted to what they're attracted too I mean we're on fur affinity for crying out loud...

See, that's the rational and sane response. The intersectional Social Justice stance is that it's 'transphobic' if you're hetro and don't want to date/fuck a 'trans-woman'.

if I remember right that's the preference. of that riley dennis moron, am I the only one who finds it ironic that some elements of social justice have basically become the inverse of their fanatical christian opponents ie

christrians: you can pray the gay away

sjws: you can pray the straight away

More humorously, it's distinctly against the very idea of being gay. I know some guys who were like, 'Wait, why not just go for a girl with a strapon?', and then you have these SJW types insisting you should do basically the same thing. The Left is imploding, and I'm just gonna sit back and let them salt my popcorn.

MAULKIN

MAULKIN I'M A GIRL WHO LIKES TO WEAR A FAKE PENIS

WHY WON'T YOU DO ME YA HATEFUL SON OF A BITCH

It must be because I make malignant/disparaging speech about trans people, at least according to the staff of FA - after all, calling trans people 'trannies' is apparently maligning/disparaging speech according to the FA staff.

No, I'm not joking. They cited me for that. There was no other malignant context, I just used that word as an identifier for transsexuals, like you might use 'whites' for white-skinned people.

Wha...? I call MYSELF a tranny! XD

I'm just as bad as you!

*facepaws* And yet the administration considered what I said 'hate speech'. You can see the journal on my Sofurry account - including the one that sparked it.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

HAHAHA.

HA.

HAHAHAHAHAHA.

*tries to regain composure*

....

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

DON'T SAY "TRANNY"

IT'S NOT UR WORD

IT'S MINE

ALL MINE, MOTHERFUCKA

Oh yeah? Well I rode my tranny real hard yesterday. He was whinin' and squeelin' the whole time, but not once did he tell me to stop. Perhaps he wasn't lubed enough...

I'll be taking my car in tomorrow to have my tranny looked at. =p

I would not call the "gay-man" a bigot.
Sexual attraction is hardly ever black or white, and I think in some situations, you will find gay men who would be able to surpass a biological barrier, and I think you will also find gay men who aren't.

There's a hugely psychological component to attraction. For example, I enjoy giving anal to my boyfriend, but the thought of giving anal to a woman is a huge turn-off for me. I'm sure asses feel pretty much the same across biological genders, but it's still a turn-off.

In this situation, would it be a psychological barrier keeping me from performing this action, and if so, might a man who feels similarly be able to be attracted to a fully transitioned FtM?

If that is the case, at what point along the transition would attraction matter?

I really don't know. I think sexual attraction is personal and tricky to understand. We each have different spreads of interests and attraction, and I'm not sure anyone understands exactly who they would be attracted to and under which circumstances.

I don't think it's reasonable to call someone a bigot for not being attracted to you. You don't owe them anything, you're not taking any stance against them..

Maybe if you argue that when the "gay-man" said they could never be attracted to trans men, he was jumping the gun. He might be shutting himself down to the possibility that he could in other situations, when he should have just said he wasn't attracted to that particular trans man...

And what if the gay dude thought that at no point along the transition was acceptable - like, they wanted the 'real deal' rather than a person a person who started out biologically female/not-male?

Then they're still valid to think that. There's nothing wrong with people having sexual preferences...

And yet, so many on the regressive left would think they're bigots. Unfortunately I can't seem to get any regressive leftists to comment, ah well - was looking forward to the salt.

Gotta love it when FA staff removes an ACTUAL gay man's opinion on the crazy state of the "TQI+-?!BBQ" identity part of said "supposed" community, as "malicious speech".

Apparently you can only be gay and talk about gay things if it is only the gay things someone else "approves" of.

I also find it ironic this happens on a site for porn and GORE/MUTILATION and baby sex diaper fetishes.

So they are CENSORING AN ACTUAL GAY MAN for saying gay sex involves 2 biological males, and for saying there is no such thing as "trans-gay" (because that would mean GAY is somehow a "choice"), and for mentioning how certain types of people are hijacking social movements they are not a part of, and saying that men have a penis and women have a vagina.

Gawd, I used to love how truly DIVERSE the furry fandom was before the facebook and tumblr era, I miss those days now that "diverse" means only fitting into a narrow definition of some sub group or another.

How dare me be a gay guy that doesn't want to fuck a vagina

Good gawd even the religious conservatives under George W Bush weren't THIS oppressive. LOL

As far as babysex porn, they fortunately have that banned on this site - I've reported and had several taken down myself, as I find them distasteful and don't wish them to be associated with babyfurs. Though from what I understand, it's only banned because one of FA's critical business supports does not allow it, so it's more a matter of necessity than morality - so, I agree, it's a silly line to draw, getting offended over un-PC words when you allow so many other immoral or even things that skirt the edges of legality - such as the 'punch a nazi' pictures. You can be sure that if 'Kill a Commie' became a thing, and conservatives identified pretty much any left-leaning person as a 'commie', they'd shut that down fast.

I wonder - being gay myself, can I call someone a faggot? If I claim to be autistic, can I call others autistic? Surely they wouldn't criticize a transsexual for using the word 'tranny' to refer to other transsexuals, after all.

"The religious conservatives under George W Bush weren't THIS oppressive" - How were they oppressive, exactly? *is one of said religious conservatives*

Back when the right was super anti-gay and pushing against gay marriage, but they never went so far as to ban and censor people for their opinions like I have seen the left doing.

This is interesting, showing how the so-called "gay community" is fracturing. http://www.breitbart.com/london/201.....gbt-activists/

So anti-sharia-law gays will be counter protested by Muslim loving gays, because for some reason the muslim loving gays must like getting thrown off buildings, and shot or beheaded for being gay. I guess wanting to live your life without the fear of some death cult wanting to kill you just for being gay is now "Offensive".

Hrmmm... How were the conservative Christians being 'anti-gay' - just by pushing back against gay marriage? Have you considered, perhaps, that this was a defensive move - so they wouldn't have to be coerced into participating in gay marriage ceremonies?

I do agree on the Islam aspect - most major Islam countries are toxic to homosexuality, and have some sort of law(s) against it. It's rather silly for those LGBT groups to be so radically in favor of it - but, then, the goals of the groups tends to be societal conversion to leftist ideals, so it doesn't exactly surprise me.

Well there is point she biologically becomes more man than girl, men don't have an ubundance ofestrogen and little testorone. I know this isn't the point of your joural I know but I just wanted to make that distinction.

Well, no, it wouldn't. It would just be a preference, he just prefers nontrans people, it's like preferring skinny people over fat people, but some people do prefer trans people over nontrans people and fat people over skinny people.

There's nothing triggering at all.