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LIFEHACK: NEVER buy a USED CAR from a DEALERSHIP!
7 years ago
Dealerships are for buying BRAND NEW CARS ONLY!
Seriously!
And even then, a new car is still a rip-off because of how quickly they depreciate and how expensive they are to insure.
Also avoid any sort of dealership that says they are "NO HAGGLE"... As this is just another term for them trying to rip you off to make you "FEEL" like it will be less "STRESSFUL". A lot of new cars at a dealership will have a $500-$5000 wiggle room for haggling (depending on price obviously as an $80k car will have a lot more haggle room than a bottom of the line econobox), and these "no haggle" dealerships will usually be on the high end of the price range to begin with. Gone are the days of companies like Saturn and their "manufacturer set dealer pricing", not suggested, but SET... Gawd I miss the 90s and early 2000s in that regard.
As for used cars at dealerships, I have seen all kinds of janky shit, especially at the "independent" one-off "hole in the wall" dealers that give used car salesmen their bad names:
-They will "title wash" cars (where they get a totaled or flood damaged car with a "salvage title", fix it up, then title it multiple times in different places to get rid of any trace back to a salvage title). So if you see a car with a DMV registration history that seems to jump all over the place, with little to no mileage reporting or changes, avoid it!
-Sawdust in slipping transmissions to get them off the lot and stick you with a bad transmission after any extended warranty expires.
-Putting thicker oil in the engine to stop leaks.
-dumping a quart of transmission fluid into the engine oil to stop a noisy lifter tick.
-Retreaded or "used tires"... Or terrible cheaply made Korean or Chinese tires like Kumhos or some off brand named tires that will likely get you KILLED! All to say they have "new tires" and charge you an extra $300-$500 for their under $250 tire job... THE TIRES OF A CAR ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT SAFETY DEVICE! This is NOT a place to cut costs, make sure the car has some good American, German, or Japanese made tires on it and avoid tires from China or Korea.
-used brakes, 'nuff said
-broken parts being held in by glue like body panels, door switch panels, seat panels, entire dashboards.
-stop-leak in the cooling system (eventually clogs things like the heater core, a $750-$2500 job that usually involves removing the entire dashboard, and can cause overheating in the rest of the system (usually no less than $400 for a new radiator) even more if you need a new water pump, and even more if the car has a timing belt instead of timing chain.
-selling cars as "clean titles" when a decent inspection can find frame straightener marks or mismatched body panels from a collision repair, as not everyone reports collisions.
-the dealers will HOPE you are not a mechanically inclined person and tell you things like "Oh! It is supposed to be that way!" when referring to things like a broken engine mount causing the engine to lurch under the hood of the car when revved. (I've had this happen 2 different times at a Chrysler and Chevy dealership).
-Be very wary if they are pushing some sort of online "Car Check" or "Car Facts" or "auto check" reports, especially if they get nervous or start talking faster when you mention wanting to have it looked at by an actual mechanic of your choosing. As most states have LAWS saying that if you want to have a car checked out before buying that they are REQUIRED to let you have it checked out at your own cost. These online "Car Checking" sites have been in trouble multiple times for allowing dealerships to buy "clean" reports for "dirty" cars as well as only reporting what has been reported to the state DMV, as well as identity theft and other shady use of information you provide them.
-There are many more janky things out there that you need to be able to say "Hell no!" and walk away from.
-When it comes down to it, the used car dealership will often be charging you $2000-$5000+ MORE than if you just bought the exact same car from some granny or grandpa selling it at the "private party price".
For example:
-Got a mid 90s Ford Crown Victoria with only 60,000 miles from a granny in a gated community that couldn't drive any more with all its maintenance records for $1900, where the same year car with OVER 110,000 miles was $3500 at a dealership.
-Got an early 2000s Mercury Grand Marquis from a guy moving to New York from Beverly Hills for $2900 with 50,000 miles! where the dealerships were selling the same year make and model with over 90,000 miles for $5-6,000+, even at so-called "auction" dealerships!
-Got a 2007 Mercury Mariner SUV (R.I.P.) with under 70,000 miles for $6000 with all records from a lady in a homeowners association gated community when it was selling for $13,000 with 100k+ miles at local dealerships.
DEALERSHIPS WILL RIP YOU OFF!
It is their JOB to rip you off!
The more they rip you off, the more they get paid!
Especially if you FINANCE a car you cannot afford to begin with, you are basically saying "Yeah, go ahead and charge me 20-35% more than I am already paying!"
Dealerships LOOOOOOVE pushing finance, even if you come in looking for a $3000 car, they will use every smooth and underhanded trick in the book to somehow get you into the $15,000 car... Hell they make money just off you filling out paper work (if they ask you to do a credit check or fill out a finance paper when you are paying with cash or cashiers check, tell them no, or just leave as that is a freakishly easy way to not only ding your credit report but steal your identity). Believe me, I have had to run wingman for more people than I can remember when it comes to getting a car.
And for heaven's sake don't ever TRADE-IN your car into a dealership, as they will give you 1/2 of what it is worth compared to a private party sale. (there are video compilations and stories galore about places like CARMAX and how scammy they are when it comes to trade-in prices)
Again, the absolute most important thing to look for when getting a used car is "MAINTENANCE HISTORY"!!!
If you do buy a used car from a dealership, only get one that was originally LEASED as they have to have all their maintenance kept up and documented during the lease.
If you can trace back that a used car of ANY mileage has had all the manufacturer recommended maintenance, then you know you will be getting a decently taken care of car, especially when it comes to these things: BRAKES, TRANSMISSION SERVICE, REGULAR OIL CHANGES, and COOLANT SYSTEM SERVICE.
Most people will buy a new car and NEVER service the brake fluid, coolant, or transmission fluid, meaning that by the time it is sold as a used car, all these things are original and often in bad condition with only the oil having been changed if at all.
I've done transmission services on cars with 80,000 miles (supposed to be done ever 30,000miles) that still have their original fluid (black and sludgy as hell and even the original dipstick plug from the assembly line in the pan), or coolant flushes on a car that are 15 years old and has completely broken down original coolant that is 50k out of its usefulness date that is brown and rusted to hell (supposed to be done every 30k miles or 3 years, and 50k miles and 5 years for extended fluids), and oil changes on cars that have gone 30,000 miles in between their last change (5000 mile oil changes are the average now). And this usually happens when people just start to notice a "strange issue", and by then it is usually too late.
A dealership will almost always not have the original maintenance records and go on and on about how "We already took care of it and changed all the fluids and filters" when about all they will do is an oil change and top stuff off. (my favorite is when they don't do a proper transmission service and filter change, and just suck out old fluid through the dipstick and dump in whatever nice red cheap trans fluid they got sitting around, often not the type that the car is supposed to have!)
If you can't know the history of a used car, then a dealership shouldn't be charging top dollar for it!
Now, when buying private party (meaning you are buying the car directly from the owner), remembering all the above as well, a good question to ask, MULTIPLE TIMES, is "WHY ARE YOU SELLING THIS CAR?"
What you want to hear is things like:
"We have to sell it because grandma shouldn't be driving anymore."
Or "We are moving out of state and can only bring 2 cars with us."
Or "The wife says I have too many cars."
Or "I'm deploying overseas in the military and can't have it sitting around here not getting used."
Or one of my personal favorites "I just got a new company car and the homeowners association nazis want to charge me $500 per week this one is parked by the curb."
Another personal favorite of mine is when someone is visibly SAD they are selling the car, and say things like "I want it to go to a good home" or "Take care of it, it is the best car I have ever owned!" and even pat it on the hood or roof or something like they are losing a family member.
Personally when I sell a car, I will be honest about it, especially when selling to friends as I will tell them EVERYTHING wrong with the car and why I'm selling it. I even tried to convince a friend NOT to buy my old Volkswagen from me and told him everything that was wrong with it before he did, I even offered to give him spare parts and shit I still had.
As most people don't sell a car unless there is a problem with it or they honestly cannot hold onto it any longer.
If they are selling the car and it has flat tires, or dead battery, or hasn't been run in a long time (spider webs everywhere), or they "think" there is an "easy to fix issue" with it (if it was so easy to fix, why didn't they do it?), then walk away because unless you are getting a classic you want to fix up, it will likely have BIG issues. This is a general rule of thumb thing as some cars are better than others when it comes to easy repairs or a car that has been sitting for a while.
Another thing you want to do is GET THE VIN (Vehicle Identification Number) and do a quick check at the DMV or Local AAA office or internet VIN check of choice to make sure the car you are looking at doesn't have a bunch of parking tickets or back registration or is stolen or whatever. And make sure the TITLE/Pinkslip of the car is in the name of the person actually selling it, check I.D.!!!
If they say it "Doesn't have a title" or "Only has a bill of sale" or is a "Lien Sale" car... WALK or RUN AWAY! These are usually stolen cars or a car with some sort of janky registration or legal issues. Even if it is a dream car of yours, it is not worth the bullshit you will have to go through to legally own and title in your name.
Also, look at the area the car is being sold in. If it is some gated community with million dollar houses you are less likely to be screwed over than with some hoopty from the ghetto, again especially if it has MAINTENANCE RECORDS, as I have noticed middle class and rich people are more likely to hang onto these records to be able to sell the car at a higher price, they are also most likely to pay for the maintenance the car needs over its life as well as being more able to negotiate the lower end of a specific value, where poorer people always want to think their under-maintained hoopty is worth solid gold and will not move from the higher end or over priced value.
The worst cars I have ever bought were from people in the shitty parts of town, and the best cars I have bought were from people in upper class areas.
A great tool to have if you are going it alone, is an OBDII SCANTOOL for ANY car 1995 and newer. You can get a cheap foxwell or similar scantool off amazon for less than $60, and plug it into the cars computer OBDII port and it will tell you right away anything the car has going on sensor or computer wise.
Any car you are researching, do a quick check on https://www.carcomplaints.com/ to see if the car you are looking at has any serious issues in the engine or transmission or electrical system as these are some of the most expensive to repair, also look at "recalls" and "Technical Service Bulletins" as these all tell you what to expect down the road or if you are getting a reliable car to begin with.
Lastly, When it comes to finding out what the "Value" of a used car is, to sell or buy, you will have to do a few things. Check out "Edmunds" and "Kelly Blue Book" and "True Car" to get an AVERAGE price range, as well as getting an idea of the "average price" for a certain model and mileage off Craigslist because people often over-value their vehicles when putting them up for sale.
Hope this helps as I see more and more journals and people getting their first cars or trading up and such lately.
Seriously!
And even then, a new car is still a rip-off because of how quickly they depreciate and how expensive they are to insure.
Also avoid any sort of dealership that says they are "NO HAGGLE"... As this is just another term for them trying to rip you off to make you "FEEL" like it will be less "STRESSFUL". A lot of new cars at a dealership will have a $500-$5000 wiggle room for haggling (depending on price obviously as an $80k car will have a lot more haggle room than a bottom of the line econobox), and these "no haggle" dealerships will usually be on the high end of the price range to begin with. Gone are the days of companies like Saturn and their "manufacturer set dealer pricing", not suggested, but SET... Gawd I miss the 90s and early 2000s in that regard.
As for used cars at dealerships, I have seen all kinds of janky shit, especially at the "independent" one-off "hole in the wall" dealers that give used car salesmen their bad names:
-They will "title wash" cars (where they get a totaled or flood damaged car with a "salvage title", fix it up, then title it multiple times in different places to get rid of any trace back to a salvage title). So if you see a car with a DMV registration history that seems to jump all over the place, with little to no mileage reporting or changes, avoid it!
-Sawdust in slipping transmissions to get them off the lot and stick you with a bad transmission after any extended warranty expires.
-Putting thicker oil in the engine to stop leaks.
-dumping a quart of transmission fluid into the engine oil to stop a noisy lifter tick.
-Retreaded or "used tires"... Or terrible cheaply made Korean or Chinese tires like Kumhos or some off brand named tires that will likely get you KILLED! All to say they have "new tires" and charge you an extra $300-$500 for their under $250 tire job... THE TIRES OF A CAR ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT SAFETY DEVICE! This is NOT a place to cut costs, make sure the car has some good American, German, or Japanese made tires on it and avoid tires from China or Korea.
-used brakes, 'nuff said
-broken parts being held in by glue like body panels, door switch panels, seat panels, entire dashboards.
-stop-leak in the cooling system (eventually clogs things like the heater core, a $750-$2500 job that usually involves removing the entire dashboard, and can cause overheating in the rest of the system (usually no less than $400 for a new radiator) even more if you need a new water pump, and even more if the car has a timing belt instead of timing chain.
-selling cars as "clean titles" when a decent inspection can find frame straightener marks or mismatched body panels from a collision repair, as not everyone reports collisions.
-the dealers will HOPE you are not a mechanically inclined person and tell you things like "Oh! It is supposed to be that way!" when referring to things like a broken engine mount causing the engine to lurch under the hood of the car when revved. (I've had this happen 2 different times at a Chrysler and Chevy dealership).
-Be very wary if they are pushing some sort of online "Car Check" or "Car Facts" or "auto check" reports, especially if they get nervous or start talking faster when you mention wanting to have it looked at by an actual mechanic of your choosing. As most states have LAWS saying that if you want to have a car checked out before buying that they are REQUIRED to let you have it checked out at your own cost. These online "Car Checking" sites have been in trouble multiple times for allowing dealerships to buy "clean" reports for "dirty" cars as well as only reporting what has been reported to the state DMV, as well as identity theft and other shady use of information you provide them.
-There are many more janky things out there that you need to be able to say "Hell no!" and walk away from.
-When it comes down to it, the used car dealership will often be charging you $2000-$5000+ MORE than if you just bought the exact same car from some granny or grandpa selling it at the "private party price".
For example:
-Got a mid 90s Ford Crown Victoria with only 60,000 miles from a granny in a gated community that couldn't drive any more with all its maintenance records for $1900, where the same year car with OVER 110,000 miles was $3500 at a dealership.
-Got an early 2000s Mercury Grand Marquis from a guy moving to New York from Beverly Hills for $2900 with 50,000 miles! where the dealerships were selling the same year make and model with over 90,000 miles for $5-6,000+, even at so-called "auction" dealerships!
-Got a 2007 Mercury Mariner SUV (R.I.P.) with under 70,000 miles for $6000 with all records from a lady in a homeowners association gated community when it was selling for $13,000 with 100k+ miles at local dealerships.
DEALERSHIPS WILL RIP YOU OFF!
It is their JOB to rip you off!
The more they rip you off, the more they get paid!
Especially if you FINANCE a car you cannot afford to begin with, you are basically saying "Yeah, go ahead and charge me 20-35% more than I am already paying!"
Dealerships LOOOOOOVE pushing finance, even if you come in looking for a $3000 car, they will use every smooth and underhanded trick in the book to somehow get you into the $15,000 car... Hell they make money just off you filling out paper work (if they ask you to do a credit check or fill out a finance paper when you are paying with cash or cashiers check, tell them no, or just leave as that is a freakishly easy way to not only ding your credit report but steal your identity). Believe me, I have had to run wingman for more people than I can remember when it comes to getting a car.
And for heaven's sake don't ever TRADE-IN your car into a dealership, as they will give you 1/2 of what it is worth compared to a private party sale. (there are video compilations and stories galore about places like CARMAX and how scammy they are when it comes to trade-in prices)
Again, the absolute most important thing to look for when getting a used car is "MAINTENANCE HISTORY"!!!
If you do buy a used car from a dealership, only get one that was originally LEASED as they have to have all their maintenance kept up and documented during the lease.
If you can trace back that a used car of ANY mileage has had all the manufacturer recommended maintenance, then you know you will be getting a decently taken care of car, especially when it comes to these things: BRAKES, TRANSMISSION SERVICE, REGULAR OIL CHANGES, and COOLANT SYSTEM SERVICE.
Most people will buy a new car and NEVER service the brake fluid, coolant, or transmission fluid, meaning that by the time it is sold as a used car, all these things are original and often in bad condition with only the oil having been changed if at all.
I've done transmission services on cars with 80,000 miles (supposed to be done ever 30,000miles) that still have their original fluid (black and sludgy as hell and even the original dipstick plug from the assembly line in the pan), or coolant flushes on a car that are 15 years old and has completely broken down original coolant that is 50k out of its usefulness date that is brown and rusted to hell (supposed to be done every 30k miles or 3 years, and 50k miles and 5 years for extended fluids), and oil changes on cars that have gone 30,000 miles in between their last change (5000 mile oil changes are the average now). And this usually happens when people just start to notice a "strange issue", and by then it is usually too late.
A dealership will almost always not have the original maintenance records and go on and on about how "We already took care of it and changed all the fluids and filters" when about all they will do is an oil change and top stuff off. (my favorite is when they don't do a proper transmission service and filter change, and just suck out old fluid through the dipstick and dump in whatever nice red cheap trans fluid they got sitting around, often not the type that the car is supposed to have!)
If you can't know the history of a used car, then a dealership shouldn't be charging top dollar for it!
Now, when buying private party (meaning you are buying the car directly from the owner), remembering all the above as well, a good question to ask, MULTIPLE TIMES, is "WHY ARE YOU SELLING THIS CAR?"
What you want to hear is things like:
"We have to sell it because grandma shouldn't be driving anymore."
Or "We are moving out of state and can only bring 2 cars with us."
Or "The wife says I have too many cars."
Or "I'm deploying overseas in the military and can't have it sitting around here not getting used."
Or one of my personal favorites "I just got a new company car and the homeowners association nazis want to charge me $500 per week this one is parked by the curb."
Another personal favorite of mine is when someone is visibly SAD they are selling the car, and say things like "I want it to go to a good home" or "Take care of it, it is the best car I have ever owned!" and even pat it on the hood or roof or something like they are losing a family member.
Personally when I sell a car, I will be honest about it, especially when selling to friends as I will tell them EVERYTHING wrong with the car and why I'm selling it. I even tried to convince a friend NOT to buy my old Volkswagen from me and told him everything that was wrong with it before he did, I even offered to give him spare parts and shit I still had.
As most people don't sell a car unless there is a problem with it or they honestly cannot hold onto it any longer.
If they are selling the car and it has flat tires, or dead battery, or hasn't been run in a long time (spider webs everywhere), or they "think" there is an "easy to fix issue" with it (if it was so easy to fix, why didn't they do it?), then walk away because unless you are getting a classic you want to fix up, it will likely have BIG issues. This is a general rule of thumb thing as some cars are better than others when it comes to easy repairs or a car that has been sitting for a while.
Another thing you want to do is GET THE VIN (Vehicle Identification Number) and do a quick check at the DMV or Local AAA office or internet VIN check of choice to make sure the car you are looking at doesn't have a bunch of parking tickets or back registration or is stolen or whatever. And make sure the TITLE/Pinkslip of the car is in the name of the person actually selling it, check I.D.!!!
If they say it "Doesn't have a title" or "Only has a bill of sale" or is a "Lien Sale" car... WALK or RUN AWAY! These are usually stolen cars or a car with some sort of janky registration or legal issues. Even if it is a dream car of yours, it is not worth the bullshit you will have to go through to legally own and title in your name.
Also, look at the area the car is being sold in. If it is some gated community with million dollar houses you are less likely to be screwed over than with some hoopty from the ghetto, again especially if it has MAINTENANCE RECORDS, as I have noticed middle class and rich people are more likely to hang onto these records to be able to sell the car at a higher price, they are also most likely to pay for the maintenance the car needs over its life as well as being more able to negotiate the lower end of a specific value, where poorer people always want to think their under-maintained hoopty is worth solid gold and will not move from the higher end or over priced value.
The worst cars I have ever bought were from people in the shitty parts of town, and the best cars I have bought were from people in upper class areas.
A great tool to have if you are going it alone, is an OBDII SCANTOOL for ANY car 1995 and newer. You can get a cheap foxwell or similar scantool off amazon for less than $60, and plug it into the cars computer OBDII port and it will tell you right away anything the car has going on sensor or computer wise.
Any car you are researching, do a quick check on https://www.carcomplaints.com/ to see if the car you are looking at has any serious issues in the engine or transmission or electrical system as these are some of the most expensive to repair, also look at "recalls" and "Technical Service Bulletins" as these all tell you what to expect down the road or if you are getting a reliable car to begin with.
Lastly, When it comes to finding out what the "Value" of a used car is, to sell or buy, you will have to do a few things. Check out "Edmunds" and "Kelly Blue Book" and "True Car" to get an AVERAGE price range, as well as getting an idea of the "average price" for a certain model and mileage off Craigslist because people often over-value their vehicles when putting them up for sale.
Hope this helps as I see more and more journals and people getting their first cars or trading up and such lately.
They LOOOOVE financing! I've even seen salesguys get visibly depressed multiple times when me or someone I am helping get a car mentions paying in cash... Then they jump straight into the "Well just fill out this finance form and we can get you an EXTENDED WARRANTY!" And this will be on some super cheap and reliable car like a Toyota or Crown Victoria where I have to mention "Nothing on this car will ever break that will be as much as this warranty costs you today." At that point, EVERY FUCKING TIME, the salesdude starts talking only to my friend or the person I am helping out like I am no longer there as they get more and more red in the face.
And don't forget the "Repo Round and Round", where they sell or lease a car to someone they KNOW can't afford it, just because they are banking on being able to Repo it for non-payment and re-sell it over and over again. I knew a guy at a "Luxury Car" dealership that said they did that with "Urban Youth" all the time with used Escalades and Mercedes and Expeditions where some had over 8 owners on title history before they move it to the "regular" used car lots.
When you pay them to check the fluids, they will, because if you go in there, and everything is super low and they tell you it isn't, and you then drive off and something breaks because the fluid was too low there is the chance you could sue them. Plus it takes less than a minute to check all the fluid levels of a car under the hood and they will often check them for free because dirty transmission fluid means they could recommend a transmission flush that costs over $220, or if your oil is nasty an $80 oil change, or if your coolant is nasty a $200 coolant flush. (these aren't actual prices, just examples). So it is in their best interests as a business to check those fluids, especially if it means they can recommend something to make even more money than they would have in an inspection or simple service.
Also in most places there are laws that say you can "request to keep old parts" from any work done on your car so you can rest assured they actually replaced said parts when you see the old ones yourself, since in the 70s and 80s a lot of shady mechanics would tell you they replaced something when they didn't.
I am so tired of auctions. It is ALWAYS better to get a used daily driver from a private party and get it checked out at a mechanic before buying than it is to get a possibly cheaper used car at an auction where you have to go by looks alone and HOPE you don't get stuck with a turd. The same janky shit at dealers I'll see at auctions, sometimes worse, because the auction company may buy a turd car like a flood vehicle that not even a dealer would sell and give it a quick detail and sell it at auction anyway only for the proud new owner to open the door and smell mold and have massive electrical problems.
Unfortunately most auction places do NOT let you "kick the tires" so to speak, let alone take a car for a test drive before the auction. Many will not even let me check under the hood for fluids and such or even start the car. Most of them are just a lot# sticker on the window with mileage and you gotta go on looks alone.
There are some auction places where they will have the cars up for sale like a used car lot sometimes around the private party price BEFORE they go to auction where they MAY let you test drive a car or have it checked out by a mechanic, but that isn't an auction at that point and is more of a "Park and Sell". That'd be about the only time I'd go looking for a daily driver at an "auction" place.
A person REALLY has to know cars well before getting them at auction. Someone might think "Oh look an Audi for $5000" when they don't realize the previous owner stopped making payments because they were tired of the car always breaking down, and find themselves with an Audi that has a blown head gasket and transmission that is about to explode.
And then there are the used car dealers at the auctions that make it hard for any "regular Joe" to get a decent car since they know they will be selling it for $2,000-$5,000 more than private party at the dealership so they can take a higher risk than a private party person, especially in a place like California where there are big cities all over and tons of cars. It is almost impossible to get an under 6 year old car at auction out here because the dealerships buy in bulk anything they still consider "newish" especially if it has under 60,000 miles.
Auctions are great if you need a spare car or want to get a retired police car for under $1000 (one of the reasons I love Panther Platform cars so much), or a clapped out front wheel or all wheel drive beater for snowy winter months so your nice daily driver doesn't have to get destroyed, or a 8+ year old car the dealers don't want, or a Limousine auction where you want to buy a Town Car or van with 200,000 miles and know it was properly maintained, though these are all often cars that were beat to hell even if they had oil changes and such on time, they are usually at the last useful bit of their life.
Auctions are only good when you can get a car so cheap below "private party value" that even if it had some glaring issue it could be repaired for less than getting it without that issue to begin with and sold at a profit. Auctions are usually just too much of a risky gamble especially with their "As-Is" and "Look but don't touch" mentality.
Anytime you go to get a vehicle your taking a risk. Best thing I can say is people should familiarize themselves with cars and possible issues and be sure to look for things or take someone who knows as you mentioned before. Dealers, Private people, Auctions, Internet.. anything is a risk. Just do your homework and try to get the best price. Also know the true market value of what your looking at to be sure you don't overpay.